Being your full, unapologetic self isn’t a liability - it’s a strategy.
What if everything you’ve been taught about how to be “professional” is actually holding you back?
In this episode, attorney Lauren Varner shares how she broke free from the outdated stereotypes that often demand women dim their light in order to be taken seriously.
From ponytails and pantyhose to sexy outfits and bold billboards, Lauren’s evolution is a masterclass in what happens when you stop trying to fit in - and start leading with your whole, authentic self.
Together, we unpack what it really means to be professional, why embracing your femininity gives you an advantage in business, and how to deal with the people who just don't get it.
In this episode, we cover:
- How traditional “professionalism” punishes self-expression - especially for women
- What happens when you stop trying to be palatable and allow yourself to be powerful
- The emotional toll of shrinking yourself to make other people more comfortable
- How to handle criticism from mentors, colleagues, or the internet with grace (and fire)
- How typically feminine traits like empathy, vulnerability, and style can be your business superpowers
If you’ve ever been told to tone it down, cover it up, or be less “you” in order to get ahead - this conversation will light a fire in you.
Links & References:
- Join us at our next PWR Virtual Speed Networking Event!
- For even deeper connections, check out the Powerful Women Rising Community!
- Learn more about Varner Faddis Elite Legal
- Follow Lauren and Varner Faddis Elite Legal on Instagram
Connect with Your Host!
Melissa Snow is a Business Relationship Strategist dedicated to empowering women in entrepreneurship. She founded the Powerful Women Rising Community, which provides female business owners with essential support and resources for business growth.
Melissa's other mission is to revolutionize networking, promoting authenticity and genuine connections over sleazy sales tactics. She runs an incredible monthly Virtual Speed Networking Event which you can attend once at no cost using the code FIRSTTIME
She lives in Colorado Springs with two girl dogs, two boy cats and any number of foster kittens. She loves iced coffee, Taylor Swift, and Threads.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melissa Snow (00:02):
Hello Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
Hi, melissa, thanks for havingme.
Yes, I'm so excited to talk toyou.
I've been trying to get you onthe podcast for a long time.
You have, because I just lovewe're going to talk about all of
this, but I just love following.
We've known each other for awhile.
I love following your journeyand just seeing you know.
(00:24):
One of the things that I talkabout all the time on the
podcast is authenticity andshowing up as yourself, and we
are so afraid to do that formany different reasons, and I
just have loved watching youbecome like more and more of
yourself and I'm going to checkthe explicit content button
right now so I can just like beyourself and not give a fuck,
(00:47):
and it's like really working foryou and I love that.
So, before we keep talking,tell everybody a little bit
about you, who you are what youdo, sure.
Lauren Varner (00:57):
My name is Lauren Varner, as you mentioned, and
I'm a plaintiff's personalinjury attorney.
I handle wrongful death casesand injury cases cases like auto
accidents and injuries thatoccur on someone else's property
.
I am from Denver and I own alaw firm with my husband, eric
(01:18):
Faddis.
He also practices personalinjury, wrongful death, and he
does some criminal defense workas well.
Melissa Snow (01:26):
Awesome.
So for people who are listeningwho are like wait, I thought
this was a business podcast.
Why do we have an attorneytalking to us and she's not
talking about business law?
The reason I wanted you to comeon is to talk about that very
subject, because you arebasically in a pretty male, old,
male dominated field, and Iwanted to start just by asking
(01:48):
you about your experience.
You know you've had moreexperience being a lawyer now
you're not a baby lawyer but astime has gone on, how have you
experienced pressure, eitherfrom yourself or from other
people, to present yourself in acertain way or to be a certain
person in order to be takenseriously in your field?
Lauren Varner (02:12):
Yeah, I mean authentic self-expression I've
learned as I've been buildingthe firm and just like growing
into myself, is something that Ivalue.
It's a very important value tome for many reasons.
I just think that without beingtrue to yourself, you're not
(02:32):
really healthy.
Right expectation from, I wouldsay, men, but just from the
culture more broadly, wherethere's an expectation that you
present yourself in a certainway, because, whatever that box
(02:53):
is and that definition, that'swhat's deemed professional, and
I found with time that thatdefinition is really aligned
with masculinity, charactertraits that we would typically
consider more masculine.
And you know, I wanted to betaken seriously, I wanted to,
(03:17):
you know, build my reputation asa lawyer within the community
and when I'm engaging withopposing counsel, and so I
impose that pressure on myselfand I feel like it was also
externally placed upon me.
But because of both of thoseforces, I really internalized
what I thought I was supposed tolook like, how I was supposed
(03:39):
to talk, how I was supposed todress, what our branding and our
marketing looked like.
I internalized all of that and,like I said, it wasn't healthy.
I mean, I just started to feelthis growing tension around how
uncomfortable that felt, right,as self-expression, authenticity
(04:02):
became a growing um.
As authentic self-expressionbecame a more important value to
me, I became increasinglyuncomfortable trying to fit into
this mold that was not me.
And, like that little whisperjust became louder and louder
(04:22):
and louder, just became louderand louder and louder and I
think at some point it became soloud I decided, more out of
like rebellion than anythingelse, that I was just going to
like be me.
And it's been uncomfortablebecause the field of law is so
traditional in a lot of ways.
(04:43):
I mean, there are still certainjudges who expect women to come
to court and, like, you know,your skirt, suit and pantyhose
and anything else is, you know,an affront to the court.
But yeah, I mean, I think Ifinally decided I can't live
(05:04):
this way, right, it's not trueto who I am, it's not true to
the life that I want to live.
And over time I had to becomemore and more comfortable with
that.
Let me rephrase that Over timeI became more and more
comfortable with that Becausewhen you're socialized over time
through all of these differentmeans and messages to really, I
(05:29):
guess, force yourself to fitinto that mold, doing something
else is very uncomfortable atfirst, right, until you start to
create new patterns and habitsand new neural pathways.
That shit is uncomfortable andI'm pretty sure you just know me
and you hit the explicit buttonfor me.
(05:51):
So thank you Because, yeah,that's part of my authentic
self-expression.
Right, I have a tendency tohave a potty mouth sometimes and
, like I accept that that's partof who I am.
But, yeah, I'm really happy tosay that I feel comfortable
dressing how I want to dress.
(06:13):
You know, presenting marketingand branding that isn't
mainstream for lawyers.
That's really reflective of whowe are and our personal brand,
and engaging with opposingcounsel in a way that feels
authentic to me.
Right, a lot of people feellike they got to come in hard
(06:34):
and assert themselves andthey're a bully, and I've just
found, when people think thatyou're an asshole, it makes
things more difficult for youand your client.
So that was a really longresponse.
Melissa Snow (06:48):
It was a great response.
I have like a thousandfollow-up questions.
Now, though, ask away.
My first question is have youhad experiences and I don't know
if people ever actually saythis to your face but have you
had experiences where peoplehave said, like you are not at
all what I thought you weregoing to be?
Lauren Varner (07:11):
Um, I don't, I don't know.
I mean, I get a lot of I stillget a lot of criticism from
people saying I shouldn't bethis way, right?
I mean, I think I don't know.
I know that some clients anddefense counsel like watch us
from afar or watch us from thesidelines on our social media
and things like that, and Ireally don't know if I'm
(07:32):
different from how they thoughtI would be, but I know that for
a lot of them I'm different fromhow they feel I should be.
And, again, that really justmotivates me to step more into
who I am and that authenticself-expression that we're
talking about.
And I think part of that islike not allowing these external
(07:55):
forces or anybody to tell methat I cannot or should not be
who I am right, because at theroot of that is this implication
that like who you are at yourcore is not good enough, right,
because at the root of that isthis implication that like who
you are at your core is not goodenough, right, and I'm just not
willing to subscribe to thatanymore.
Melissa Snow (08:12):
Yeah, Do you ever feel like you have to try harder
to prove yourself?
Or did you feel like that inthe beginning at least, when you
were allowing yourself to bemore of yourself?
And I mean, I probably shouldhave said this in the beginning.
But for those who don't knowyou, you are a gorgeous woman.
You are very into fashion.
You are always showing up likewell, I shouldn't even say
(08:36):
always showing up, because I seeyou on social media in your
sweats, like working that alsobut just always showing up in
like whatever you want to beshowing up in, and you post
pictures of yourself that areincredibly sexy.
You post pictures of yourselfthat are sexy even though you're
in sweats on the couch withyour dogs, Right?
So that's what.
(08:57):
That's really what we'retalking about when we're talking
about, like the things that youdo, that people feel like, oh,
you should not be that way.
And so I'm just wondering, likethat was kind of where I was
going with the question aboutpeople saying like, like, are
they surprised that you're smart?
Or like, are they surprisedthat you know what you're doing?
Lauren Varner (09:16):
I mean, I think so, I think so and I and I have
felt some pressure to reallyassert myself in those ways
right Gain credibility withopposing counsel, clients,
experts, the court, because Iknow that my self-expression is
different and I just think Ihave because of that, I have
(09:38):
less room for error, does that?
make sense Mm-hmm, and I don'tthink that that's fair.
I mean, I understand it to somedegree, but you know, really,
my part of my goal.
I mean, we have a number ofgoals that are related to our
branding and our marketing, butpart of I was as background.
(10:01):
I was a sociology major incollege and so we studied like
how, how do we perpetuate or howdo we challenge ideologies,
right, and so one method fordoing that is through what we
make visible, what we say, um,what we put out in our social
media, on our websites, thingslike that.
Melissa Snow (10:23):
So, um, I forgot the first part of the comment,
okay it was feeling like you hadto prove yourself is where you
started.
Lauren Varner (10:38):
Damn it, melissa.
See, I told you this happens.
I jinxed you by even bringingit up.
No, sorry, okay, can you ask methe question again?
Melissa Snow (10:49):
Yeah, if I remember what the question was,
sorry, no, that's okay.
I was basically.
Yeah, if I remember what thequestion was, no, that's okay.
It was basically.
Oh, it was basically about youshowing up, the way that you
show up, and wondering if peopleare surprised that you are
smart or surprised that you knowwhat you're doing and are
capable.
Lauren Varner (11:06):
And we were talking a little bit, too, about
like feeling like you had toprove yourself and like people
were critiquing you more thanothers, yep, and so part of our
brand, part of the purposebehind our brand, is promoting
authentic self-expression,because it challenges these
(11:30):
ideologies, right so, forexample, these ideologies, right
so, for example, showingattorneys using more casual and
like informal language on abillboard challenges this notion
that you have to be like astuck up, like pretentious
asshole to be an attorney and tobe taken seriously.
(11:51):
Right?
Or featuring me and like afemale empowerment message on a
billboard, that challenges thisideology that you have to be a
man to be a bulldog, successfulattorney who's taken seriously.
So, yeah, I mean, we're, we'revery intentional about the
(12:13):
branding and how we canchallenge social norms and
social conditions to allowgreater space and acceptance
surrounding self-expression.
Melissa Snow (12:27):
Yeah, and let's be honest, this is not just a
woman thing.
Also, like I follow Eric, I seesome of these outfits going on
out in the world.
Your husband is also all aboutauthentic self-expression.
So I mean we can, we could, wecould be here all day going down
the rabbit hole of thepatriarchy and expectations on
women and how other womenperceive you and I'm.
(12:50):
You know other women who arealways looking to see you fail
so they can be like oh see, Itold you, but it's, it's really
true on both genders, it's trueon every side, right?
Everybody has expectations ofhow they think that you should
be, and I know that Eric I'msure has had similar experiences
with people who think he shouldbe different than he is as well
(13:12):
.
Lauren Varner (13:13):
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
And you know, he the thepurpose that I was speaking to
behind our branding right, justincreasing space and safety
surrounding self-expression.
He's really embraced that too.
And what's what I?
One of the things that I loveabout him so much is that and
(13:34):
this is one of the reasons Ifell in love with him is because
he is like the opposite oftoxic masculinity, right, like
he wants to be vulnerable and hehas like a soft side to him and
he's not afraid to show that.
I mean for men to really embracethat.
I think that's the truestexpression of masculinity.
(13:54):
And so, yeah, he's veryintentional about showing that.
He's intentional about speakingto issues that are often like
stigmatized for men and forsociety at large, things like
mental health for men.
He's been involved in campaignsfor topics like that because,
yeah, again, it's all aboutbeing really intentional with
(14:16):
our choices in order tochallenge these ideologies and
these narratives, because thosethings are the framework for how
we engage with each other insociety and without people
making those intentional choicesand being aware of the
consequences of those choices,you're often just engaging
(14:42):
unknowingly or unwittingly andmaking choices that reinforce
these problematic dynamics, andI just I feel called to do what
I can in various ways,especially if it means just
being me right it's pretty easyto change that.
Melissa Snow (15:02):
Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of times what I see
in business and this manifestsitself in a lot of different
ways is we are so afraid to turnsomebody off right, like I.
To go back to your point aboutswearing like my mom used to
listen to my podcast and shewould be like I just don't
understand why you have to swearso much, like, maybe just don't
(15:23):
do that.
And I was like mom, here's thething, like that's how I talk.
So if someone is listening tothe podcast and they're like ew,
I'm not listening to thisbecause she said, fuck, they
don't want to be involved withme, they don't want to hire me
as a coach, they don't want tobe in my community, they're not
going to like it, and that'sokay.
There's someone out there whodoesn't say fuck, and they're
(15:44):
going to love them and it'sgoing to be great.
But I think it's hard.
Sometimes we feel like we aregoing to miss out on
opportunities or we're going toalienate people or there's not
going to be enough clients thatwant to work with us, that we
have to like, try to bepalatable for everyone.
And I think you have discovered, and Eric too, that by being
(16:08):
more of yourselves you are stillattracting people, but you're
attracting the right people,like you're attracting the
clients that you want to workwith At least, I assume so.
Lauren Varner (16:20):
That's exactly right, yeah, and we've spoken
about that in the legalcommunity, because I mean, first
things first.
You can't please everyone, sowhy, like, why do we hold
ourselves to that standard?
Even try, right, and when youtone yourself down, dim yourself
down for the reason that yousaid right, to make yourself
(16:41):
more palatable, I think thatyou're interfering with your
ability to build an authenticconnection.
Um, when we attend, you know,our continuing, continuing legal
education seminars, all thetime you hear these really
successful attorneys talkingabout engaging with jurors
(17:01):
during trial, and they talkabout you know, if you are not
your authentic self, they'regoing to see right through you,
they're going to think you're aphony, think you're a phony.
And when you aren't yourself, Ithink it's impossible to build
an authentic relationship orconnection with somebody, right?
So I think there are multipledownsides to dimming yourself or
(17:25):
altering yourself.
And when you are yourself,you're exactly right.
It calls in the right people,and one benefit of that, an
additional benefit of that, isthat it does away with this
notion of competition.
Right, like, we can be so hardon ourselves, like how do I beat
the competition?
And we're always comparingourselves to other people, and
(17:49):
you know, I mean, I experiencedthat sometimes when I'm spending
too much time scrolling onsocial media and it's an
uncomfortable feeling, butknowing that when you are you
and if that involves cussing,you're going to find the other
cussers out there who see youand just honor and respect your
(18:10):
right to your sovereignty, yourpersonal sovereignty and yeah, I
mean those are the people.
Those are the people I want towork with.
Melissa Snow (18:19):
Yeah, I love that.
So I know you.
I think you make it look easy.
I know it's not easy all thetime to show up as your
authentic self and confidently,and I also know that you are
human and that other humans behuman in and I'm sure you've
(18:42):
heard some things from peoplethat weren't all that nice, and
I'm just curious, like how doyou push past the haters and
stay confident?
Lauren Varner (18:55):
Hmm, I love that question because, to be
completely honest andtransparent, it's something that
I that I'm still, I wouldn'tsay, struggling with, but coming
to terms with because it is.
It's hurtful.
I mean, I can give youcountless examples where you
know people I look up to in thefield um are offering negative
(19:18):
feedback about this billboard orthis photo or whatever, and
like that's such a nice way tosay it offering negative
feedback.
Melissa Snow (19:27):
They're talking shit.
It's fine, they're shit talking.
Lauren Varner (19:30):
And some of that has even come from, like, female
mentors that I've really lovedand respected and trusted, and
it's really hurtful, but I'vedone a lot of work to try to
recognize that the way and maybeit sounds cliche, but I really
(19:51):
truly believe this the way thatsomebody responds is based on
their framework, right, and thatis not reflective of me.
So there are certain people whohave a framework based on their
life experiences where they'regoing to look at something that
I'm doing and they may say, oh,that's really courageous.
Somebody else, with a differentframework based on their life
(20:12):
experiences, is going to saythat's super disrespectful and
slutty and whatever.
Right, and I, while I don'tappreciate it, I have to honor
that.
That's their experience.
I still find it problematicbecause I think sometimes it's
mean spirited, it's notnecessary and it serves to
(20:35):
reinforce those narratives thatreally disadvantage, for example
, some of these women.
Right, when you talkdisparagingly about another
woman in your field, it'sproblematic, but you just have
their experience, as toxic as itmay can be at times, right,
(21:07):
yeah, we're all.
We're all entitled to our ownexperience, experiences.
Melissa Snow (21:12):
Yeah, and remembering that it doesn't have
to mean anything about you, itdoesn't have to dictate your
choices, it's.
I mean, unfortunately,sometimes they are just as
entitled to make their ownchoices as you are and they can
do that.
But, yeah, I like.
I like what you're saying too,about just that empathy piece
and being able to put yourselfin their shoes as best you can
(21:36):
and recognize like whatever ishappening over there is really
not about me.
You know whether it is thatyou're triggering something in
them where they are feeling deepdown like gosh I wish I had the
balls to be that myself.
Or you know who knows, it'scoming from something that has
nothing to do with you, and Ithink that's a really important
(21:56):
reminder.
Lauren Varner (21:57):
Exactly, yeah, and I mean just the example that
we were talking about.
Right, if I post a picture inlike a sexy outfit, that that is
intentional because I'm notgoing to, um, change my
self-expression to conform toyour arbitrary standard.
And it's intentional because Iwant to open up space where you
(22:22):
can be whatever profession orhowever you identify in this
world, right, and wear whateverthe fuck you want to wear.
Um, but, yeah, I mean, whereI've had mentors comment on
those types of photos in adisparaging way, I am able to
have empathy for the fact thatyou know they are, they're
(22:45):
imposing that limitation onthemselves.
And how, how painful must thatbe?
I mean, I know how painful thatmust be because I did it to
myself when I was a baby lawyerand I thought that, no matter
where I went, I had to wear ablack suit, I couldn't show any
cleavage, I had to have like africking turtleneck on my hair
pulled back in a tight bun.
Right, I've done that to myself.
(23:05):
And when, when you're not inalignment with your truest
self-expression, it is painful.
So I can only imagine how thatmust feel for somebody to impose
those kinds of restrictions onthemselves.
So, yeah, let them have theirexperience and I really hope
that they can get to a placewhere they're able to overcome
(23:25):
that and like, just be free youknow, yeah, it feels much better
.
Melissa Snow (23:31):
It's a lot less work too.
Lauren Varner (23:33):
So much right, that shit's just exhausting.
It really really is.
Melissa Snow (23:39):
Yeah, Okay.
So last question what messagedo you want to send to other
women, whether they are in thefield of law, they're in
business, any other field whofeel pressure to downplay their
femininity in order to berespected?
Lauren Varner (23:57):
Yeah, I want us all to be intentional about
beginning to reframe theassociations that we have with
characteristics that aretraditionally seen as, or viewed
as, feminine, right, because inour society, we have a tendency
(24:18):
to assign strength and powerand legitimacy to all of these
qualities and characteristicsthat are traditionally more
masculine, and that's justproblematic for so many reasons,
including that it imposes theseunrealistic expectations on men
, and so it's actually veryharmful and damaging to them as
(24:40):
well.
But if we, as women, can seethe way that we participate in
that or we co-sign on that in away that really precludes us
from being in our feminineexpression, I think that's how
we start to shift it, right.
Like, I mean, let's just talkabout being in flow and
(25:01):
creativity, right, and like thespaciousness around that.
There is something inherentlybeautiful and powerful about
that, and that's more of like afeminine characteristic, right.
And if we can stop looking downon that, I just think that we're
all going to feel so much moreempowered if we can see the
(25:22):
power in our femininity and thebenefits that that can bring to
the table, regardless of whattype of work you're doing.
I mean, let's just talk aboutbeing able to empathize with
somebody, being able to connectwith them, being able to offer
them support.
That's not something that issocialized into most men, right?
(25:43):
That's not a characteristicthat is typically fostered in
them.
I mean, like traditionally orthroughout history.
It's something that has beentaught more to women because
we're the caregivers, we're thenurturers.
But just starting to shift howwe perceive those qualities, I
(26:03):
think is going to be soempowering and seeing them as
benefits to us instead ofweaknesses.
So important.
Melissa Snow (26:12):
Yeah, that's really good.
I feel like I could keep goingwith you forever, but I'm going
to wrap it up.
If people want to connect withyou more if they're, they want
to be inspired by you, if theywant to know more about what
your firm does, what are thebest ways for them to connect
with you?
Lauren Varner (26:27):
Yep, so you can reach out to us through our
website, which iswwwvarnerfattiscom.
Our social media is Varnerfattest and we're on facebook,
instagram, linkedin, tiktokthreads, all the things, and um,
(26:48):
yeah, my email is on my websiteas well, so anyone's welcome to
give me a call or shoot me anemail.
I'd love to connect awesome.
Melissa Snow (26:57):
I will put those links in the show notes so
everyone can reach out to youand thank you again for being
you and for coming on thispodcast and talking about some
really important topics.
I appreciate it.
Well, back at you, thank you somuch.
Hello Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
Hi, melissa, thanks for havingme.
Yes, I'm so excited to talk toyou.
I've been trying to get you onthe podcast for a long time.
You have, because I just lovewe're going to talk about all of
this, but I just love following.
We've known each other for awhile.
I love following your journeyand just seeing you know.
(00:24):
One of the things that I talkabout all the time on the
podcast is authenticity andshowing up as yourself, and we
are so afraid to do that formany different reasons, and I
just have loved watching youbecome like more and more of
yourself and I'm going to checkthe explicit content button
right now so I can just like beyourself and not give a fuck,
(00:47):
and it's like really working foryou and I love that.
So, before we keep talking,tell everybody a little bit
about you, who you are what youdo, sure.
Lauren Varner (00:57):
My name is Lauren Varner, as you mentioned, and
I'm a plaintiff's personalinjury attorney.
I handle wrongful death casesand injury cases cases like auto
accidents and injuries thatoccur on someone else's property
.
I am from Denver and I own alaw firm with my husband, eric
(01:18):
Faddis.
He also practices personalinjury, wrongful death, and he
does some criminal defense workas well.
Melissa Snow (01:26):
Awesome.
So for people who are listeningwho are like wait, I thought
this was a business podcast.
Why do we have an attorneytalking to us and she's not
talking about business law?
The reason I wanted you to comeon is to talk about that very
subject, because you arebasically in a pretty male, old,
male dominated field, and Iwanted to start just by asking
(01:48):
you about your experience.
You know you've had moreexperience being a lawyer now
you're not a baby lawyer but astime has gone on, how have you
experienced pressure, eitherfrom yourself or from other
people, to present yourself in acertain way or to be a certain
person in order to be takenseriously in your field?
Lauren Varner (02:12):
Yeah, I mean authentic self-expression I've
learned as I've been buildingthe firm and just like growing
into myself, is something that Ivalue.
It's a very important value tome for many reasons.
I just think that without beingtrue to yourself, you're not
(02:32):
really healthy.
Right expectation from, I wouldsay, men, but just from the
culture more broadly, wherethere's an expectation that you
present yourself in a certainway, because, whatever that box
(02:53):
is and that definition, that'swhat's deemed professional, and
I found with time that thatdefinition is really aligned
with masculinity, charactertraits that we would typically
consider more masculine.
And you know, I wanted to betaken seriously, I wanted to,
(03:17):
you know, build my reputation asa lawyer within the community
and when I'm engaging withopposing counsel, and so I
impose that pressure on myselfand I feel like it was also
externally placed upon me.
But because of both of thoseforces, I really internalized
what I thought I was supposed tolook like, how I was supposed
(03:39):
to talk, how I was supposed todress, what our branding and our
marketing looked like.
I internalized all of that and,like I said, it wasn't healthy.
I mean, I just started to feelthis growing tension around how
uncomfortable that felt, right,as self-expression, authenticity
(04:02):
became a growing um.
As authentic self-expressionbecame a more important value to
me, I became increasinglyuncomfortable trying to fit into
this mold that was not me.
And, like that little whisperjust became louder and louder
(04:22):
and louder, just became louderand louder and louder and I
think at some point it became soloud I decided, more out of
like rebellion than anythingelse, that I was just going to
like be me.
And it's been uncomfortablebecause the field of law is so
traditional in a lot of ways.
(04:43):
I mean, there are still certainjudges who expect women to come
to court and, like, you know,your skirt, suit and pantyhose
and anything else is, you know,an affront to the court.
But yeah, I mean, I think Ifinally decided I can't live
(05:04):
this way, right, it's not trueto who I am, it's not true to
the life that I want to live.
And over time I had to becomemore and more comfortable with
that.
Let me rephrase that Over timeI became more and more
comfortable with that Becausewhen you're socialized over time
through all of these differentmeans and messages to really, I
(05:29):
guess, force yourself to fitinto that mold, doing something
else is very uncomfortable atfirst, right, until you start to
create new patterns and habitsand new neural pathways.
That shit is uncomfortable andI'm pretty sure you just know me
and you hit the explicit buttonfor me.
(05:51):
So thank you Because, yeah,that's part of my authentic
self-expression.
Right, I have a tendency tohave a potty mouth sometimes and
, like I accept that that's partof who I am.
But, yeah, I'm really happy tosay that I feel comfortable
dressing how I want to dress.
(06:13):
You know, presenting marketingand branding that isn't
mainstream for lawyers.
That's really reflective of whowe are and our personal brand,
and engaging with opposingcounsel in a way that feels
authentic to me.
Right, a lot of people feellike they got to come in hard
(06:34):
and assert themselves andthey're a bully, and I've just
found, when people think thatyou're an asshole, it makes
things more difficult for youand your client.
So that was a really longresponse.
Melissa Snow (06:48):
It was a great response.
I have like a thousandfollow-up questions.
Now, though, ask away.
My first question is have youhad experiences and I don't know
if people ever actually saythis to your face but have you
had experiences where peoplehave said, like you are not at
all what I thought you weregoing to be?
Lauren Varner (07:11):
Um, I don't, I don't know.
I mean, I get a lot of I stillget a lot of criticism from
people saying I shouldn't bethis way, right?
I mean, I think I don't know.
I know that some clients anddefense counsel like watch us
from afar or watch us from thesidelines on our social media
and things like that, and Ireally don't know if I'm
(07:32):
different from how they thoughtI would be, but I know that for
a lot of them I'm different fromhow they feel I should be.
And, again, that really justmotivates me to step more into
who I am and that authenticself-expression that we're
talking about.
And I think part of that islike not allowing these external
(07:55):
forces or anybody to tell methat I cannot or should not be
who I am right, because at theroot of that is this implication
that like who you are at yourcore is not good enough, right,
because at the root of that isthis implication that like who
you are at your core is not goodenough, right, and I'm just not
willing to subscribe to thatanymore.
Melissa Snow (08:12):
Yeah, Do you ever feel like you have to try harder
to prove yourself?
Or did you feel like that inthe beginning at least, when you
were allowing yourself to bemore of yourself?
And I mean, I probably shouldhave said this in the beginning.
But for those who don't knowyou, you are a gorgeous woman.
You are very into fashion.
You are always showing up likewell, I shouldn't even say
(08:36):
always showing up, because I seeyou on social media in your
sweats, like working that alsobut just always showing up in
like whatever you want to beshowing up in, and you post
pictures of yourself that areincredibly sexy.
You post pictures of yourselfthat are sexy even though you're
in sweats on the couch withyour dogs, Right?
So that's what.
(08:57):
That's really what we'retalking about when we're talking
about, like the things that youdo, that people feel like, oh,
you should not be that way.
And so I'm just wondering, likethat was kind of where I was
going with the question aboutpeople saying like, like, are
they surprised that you're smart?
Or like, are they surprisedthat you know what you're doing?
Lauren Varner (09:16):
I mean, I think so, I think so and I and I have
felt some pressure to reallyassert myself in those ways
right Gain credibility withopposing counsel, clients,
experts, the court, because Iknow that my self-expression is
different and I just think Ihave because of that, I have
(09:38):
less room for error, does that?
make sense Mm-hmm, and I don'tthink that that's fair.
I mean, I understand it to somedegree, but you know, really,
my part of my goal.
I mean, we have a number ofgoals that are related to our
branding and our marketing, butpart of I was as background.
(10:01):
I was a sociology major incollege and so we studied like
how, how do we perpetuate or howdo we challenge ideologies,
right, and so one method fordoing that is through what we
make visible, what we say, um,what we put out in our social
media, on our websites, thingslike that.
Melissa Snow (10:23):
So, um, I forgot the first part of the comment,
okay it was feeling like you hadto prove yourself is where you
started.
Lauren Varner (10:38):
Damn it, melissa.
See, I told you this happens.
I jinxed you by even bringingit up.
No, sorry, okay, can you ask methe question again?
Melissa Snow (10:49):
Yeah, if I remember what the question was,
sorry, no, that's okay.
I was basically.
Yeah, if I remember what thequestion was, no, that's okay.
It was basically.
Oh, it was basically about youshowing up, the way that you
show up, and wondering if peopleare surprised that you are
smart or surprised that you knowwhat you're doing and are
capable.
Lauren Varner (11:06):
And we were talking a little bit, too, about
like feeling like you had toprove yourself and like people
were critiquing you more thanothers, yep, and so part of our
brand, part of the purposebehind our brand, is promoting
authentic self-expression,because it challenges these
(11:30):
ideologies, right so, forexample, these ideologies, right
so, for example, showingattorneys using more casual and
like informal language on abillboard challenges this notion
that you have to be like astuck up, like pretentious
asshole to be an attorney and tobe taken seriously.
(11:51):
Right?
Or featuring me and like afemale empowerment message on a
billboard, that challenges thisideology that you have to be a
man to be a bulldog, successfulattorney who's taken seriously.
So, yeah, I mean, we're, we'revery intentional about the
(12:13):
branding and how we canchallenge social norms and
social conditions to allowgreater space and acceptance
surrounding self-expression.
Melissa Snow (12:27):
Yeah, and let's be honest, this is not just a
woman thing.
Also, like I follow Eric, I seesome of these outfits going on
out in the world.
Your husband is also all aboutauthentic self-expression.
So I mean we can, we could, wecould be here all day going down
the rabbit hole of thepatriarchy and expectations on
women and how other womenperceive you and I'm.
(12:50):
You know other women who arealways looking to see you fail
so they can be like oh see, Itold you, but it's, it's really
true on both genders, it's trueon every side, right?
Everybody has expectations ofhow they think that you should
be, and I know that Eric I'msure has had similar experiences
with people who think he shouldbe different than he is as well
(13:12):
.
Lauren Varner (13:13):
Yeah, that's absolutely true.
And you know, he the thepurpose that I was speaking to
behind our branding right, justincreasing space and safety
surrounding self-expression.
He's really embraced that too.
And what's what I?
One of the things that I loveabout him so much is that and
(13:34):
this is one of the reasons Ifell in love with him is because
he is like the opposite oftoxic masculinity, right, like
he wants to be vulnerable and hehas like a soft side to him and
he's not afraid to show that.
I mean for men to really embracethat.
I think that's the truestexpression of masculinity.
(13:54):
And so, yeah, he's veryintentional about showing that.
He's intentional about speakingto issues that are often like
stigmatized for men and forsociety at large, things like
mental health for men.
He's been involved in campaignsfor topics like that because,
yeah, again, it's all aboutbeing really intentional with
(14:16):
our choices in order tochallenge these ideologies and
these narratives, because thosethings are the framework for how
we engage with each other insociety and without people
making those intentional choicesand being aware of the
consequences of those choices,you're often just engaging
(14:42):
unknowingly or unwittingly andmaking choices that reinforce
these problematic dynamics, andI just I feel called to do what
I can in various ways,especially if it means just
being me right it's pretty easyto change that.
Melissa Snow (15:02):
Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of times what I see
in business and this manifestsitself in a lot of different
ways is we are so afraid to turnsomebody off right, like I.
To go back to your point aboutswearing like my mom used to
listen to my podcast and shewould be like I just don't
understand why you have to swearso much, like, maybe just don't
(15:23):
do that.
And I was like mom, here's thething, like that's how I talk.
So if someone is listening tothe podcast and they're like ew,
I'm not listening to thisbecause she said, fuck, they
don't want to be involved withme, they don't want to hire me
as a coach, they don't want tobe in my community, they're not
going to like it, and that'sokay.
There's someone out there whodoesn't say fuck, and they're
(15:44):
going to love them and it'sgoing to be great.
But I think it's hard.
Sometimes we feel like we aregoing to miss out on
opportunities or we're going toalienate people or there's not
going to be enough clients thatwant to work with us, that we
have to like, try to bepalatable for everyone.
And I think you have discovered, and Eric too, that by being
(16:08):
more of yourselves you are stillattracting people, but you're
attracting the right people,like you're attracting the
clients that you want to workwith At least, I assume so.
Lauren Varner (16:20):
That's exactly right, yeah, and we've spoken
about that in the legalcommunity, because I mean, first
things first.
You can't please everyone, sowhy, like, why do we hold
ourselves to that standard?
Even try, right, and when youtone yourself down, dim yourself
down for the reason that yousaid right, to make yourself
(16:41):
more palatable, I think thatyou're interfering with your
ability to build an authenticconnection.
Um, when we attend, you know,our continuing, continuing legal
education seminars, all thetime you hear these really
successful attorneys talkingabout engaging with jurors
(17:01):
during trial, and they talkabout you know, if you are not
your authentic self, they'regoing to see right through you,
they're going to think you're aphony, think you're a phony.
And when you aren't yourself, Ithink it's impossible to build
an authentic relationship orconnection with somebody, right?
So I think there are multipledownsides to dimming yourself or
(17:25):
altering yourself.
And when you are yourself,you're exactly right.
It calls in the right people,and one benefit of that, an
additional benefit of that, isthat it does away with this
notion of competition.
Right, like, we can be so hardon ourselves, like how do I beat
the competition?
And we're always comparingourselves to other people, and
(17:49):
you know, I mean, I experiencedthat sometimes when I'm spending
too much time scrolling onsocial media and it's an
uncomfortable feeling, butknowing that when you are you
and if that involves cussing,you're going to find the other
cussers out there who see youand just honor and respect your
(18:10):
right to your sovereignty, yourpersonal sovereignty and yeah, I
mean those are the people.
Those are the people I want towork with.
Melissa Snow (18:19):
Yeah, I love that.
So I know you.
I think you make it look easy.
I know it's not easy all thetime to show up as your
authentic self and confidently,and I also know that you are
human and that other humans behuman in and I'm sure you've
(18:42):
heard some things from peoplethat weren't all that nice, and
I'm just curious, like how doyou push past the haters and
stay confident?
Lauren Varner (18:55):
Hmm, I love that question because, to be
completely honest andtransparent, it's something that
I that I'm still, I wouldn'tsay, struggling with, but coming
to terms with because it is.
It's hurtful.
I mean, I can give youcountless examples where you
know people I look up to in thefield um are offering negative
(19:18):
feedback about this billboard orthis photo or whatever, and
like that's such a nice way tosay it offering negative
feedback.
Melissa Snow (19:27):
They're talking shit.
It's fine, they're shit talking.
Lauren Varner (19:30):
And some of that has even come from, like, female
mentors that I've really lovedand respected and trusted, and
it's really hurtful, but I'vedone a lot of work to try to
recognize that the way and maybeit sounds cliche, but I really
(19:51):
truly believe this the way thatsomebody responds is based on
their framework, right, and thatis not reflective of me.
So there are certain people whohave a framework based on their
life experiences where they'regoing to look at something that
I'm doing and they may say, oh,that's really courageous.
Somebody else, with a differentframework based on their life
(20:12):
experiences, is going to saythat's super disrespectful and
slutty and whatever.
Right, and I, while I don'tappreciate it, I have to honor
that.
That's their experience.
I still find it problematicbecause I think sometimes it's
mean spirited, it's notnecessary and it serves to
(20:35):
reinforce those narratives thatreally disadvantage, for example
, some of these women.
Right, when you talkdisparagingly about another
woman in your field, it'sproblematic, but you just have
their experience, as toxic as itmay can be at times, right,
(21:07):
yeah, we're all.
We're all entitled to our ownexperience, experiences.
Melissa Snow (21:12):
Yeah, and remembering that it doesn't have
to mean anything about you, itdoesn't have to dictate your
choices, it's.
I mean, unfortunately,sometimes they are just as
entitled to make their ownchoices as you are and they can
do that.
But, yeah, I like.
I like what you're saying too,about just that empathy piece
and being able to put yourselfin their shoes as best you can
(21:36):
and recognize like whatever ishappening over there is really
not about me.
You know whether it is thatyou're triggering something in
them where they are feeling deepdown like gosh I wish I had the
balls to be that myself.
Or you know who knows, it'scoming from something that has
nothing to do with you, and Ithink that's a really important
(21:56):
reminder.
Lauren Varner (21:57):
Exactly, yeah, and I mean just the example that
we were talking about.
Right, if I post a picture inlike a sexy outfit, that that is
intentional because I'm notgoing to, um, change my
self-expression to conform toyour arbitrary standard.
And it's intentional because Iwant to open up space where you
(22:22):
can be whatever profession orhowever you identify in this
world, right, and wear whateverthe fuck you want to wear.
Um, but, yeah, I mean, whereI've had mentors comment on
those types of photos in adisparaging way, I am able to
have empathy for the fact thatyou know they are, they're
(22:45):
imposing that limitation onthemselves.
And how, how painful must thatbe?
I mean, I know how painful thatmust be because I did it to
myself when I was a baby lawyerand I thought that, no matter
where I went, I had to wear ablack suit, I couldn't show any
cleavage, I had to have like africking turtleneck on my hair
pulled back in a tight bun.
Right, I've done that to myself.
(23:05):
And when, when you're not inalignment with your truest
self-expression, it is painful.
So I can only imagine how thatmust feel for somebody to impose
those kinds of restrictions onthemselves.
So, yeah, let them have theirexperience and I really hope
that they can get to a placewhere they're able to overcome
(23:25):
that and like, just be free youknow, yeah, it feels much better
.
Melissa Snow (23:31):
It's a lot less work too.
Lauren Varner (23:33):
So much right, that shit's just exhausting.
It really really is.
Melissa Snow (23:39):
Yeah, Okay.
So last question what messagedo you want to send to other
women, whether they are in thefield of law, they're in
business, any other field whofeel pressure to downplay their
femininity in order to berespected?
Lauren Varner (23:57):
Yeah, I want us all to be intentional about
beginning to reframe theassociations that we have with
characteristics that aretraditionally seen as, or viewed
as, feminine, right, because inour society, we have a tendency
(24:18):
to assign strength and powerand legitimacy to all of these
qualities and characteristicsthat are traditionally more
masculine, and that's justproblematic for so many reasons,
including that it imposes theseunrealistic expectations on men
, and so it's actually veryharmful and damaging to them as
(24:40):
well.
But if we, as women, can seethe way that we participate in
that or we co-sign on that in away that really precludes us
from being in our feminineexpression, I think that's how
we start to shift it, right.
Like, I mean, let's just talkabout being in flow and
(25:01):
creativity, right, and like thespaciousness around that.
There is something inherentlybeautiful and powerful about
that, and that's more of like afeminine characteristic, right.
And if we can stop looking downon that, I just think that we're
all going to feel so much moreempowered if we can see the
(25:22):
power in our femininity and thebenefits that that can bring to
the table, regardless of whattype of work you're doing.
I mean, let's just talk aboutbeing able to empathize with
somebody, being able to connectwith them, being able to offer
them support.
That's not something that issocialized into most men, right?
(25:43):
That's not a characteristicthat is typically fostered in
them.
I mean, like traditionally orthroughout history.
It's something that has beentaught more to women because
we're the caregivers, we're thenurturers.
But just starting to shift howwe perceive those qualities, I
(26:03):
think is going to be soempowering and seeing them as
benefits to us instead ofweaknesses.
So important.
Melissa Snow (26:12):
Yeah, that's really good.
I feel like I could keep goingwith you forever, but I'm going
to wrap it up.
If people want to connect withyou more if they're, they want
to be inspired by you, if theywant to know more about what
your firm does, what are thebest ways for them to connect
with you?
Lauren Varner (26:27):
Yep, so you can reach out to us through our
website, which iswwwvarnerfattiscom.
Our social media is Varnerfattest and we're on facebook,
instagram, linkedin, tiktokthreads, all the things, and um,
(26:48):
yeah, my email is on my websiteas well, so anyone's welcome to
give me a call or shoot me anemail.
I'd love to connect awesome.
Melissa Snow (26:57):
I will put those links in the show notes so
everyone can reach out to youand thank you again for being
you and for coming on thispodcast and talking about some
really important topics.
I appreciate it.
Well, back at you, thank you somuch.
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