September 22, 2025 • 26 mins
What if marketing didn't feel like a chore?
In this episode, I’m joined by messaging strategist and email marketing rebel M. Shannon Hernandez, who is flipping the script on everything you think you know about how to communicate with your audience.
Shannon is co-founder of the Joyful Business Revolution, and she’s here to help you stop screaming into the social media void and start building a real, connected community through your email list.
No more random posts.
No more “wtf do I even write?” panic.
Just clear, value-driven messaging that feels good and drives results.
We talk about:
- The difference between messaging strategy and copywriting - and why most people are focused on the wrong one
- The six types of content in Shannon’s Profit-Driven Messaging Ecosystem and how to use them
- How to simplify your entire marketing plan to just one social platform + email (yes, really)
- The most common email mistakes heart-centered entrepreneurs make and how to fix them
If you’ve ever dreaded writing your newsletter or felt like “good marketing” requires sacrificing your time, energy or soul, Shannon is here to give you permission to market in a way that feels like YOU - joyful, human, and wildly effective.
Links & References:
- Trying to grow your list, increase your visibility or make new connections? Join us at the next PWR Virtual Speed Networking Event!
- For faster business growth through networking, strategy and accountability, check out the Powerful Women Rising Business Growth Community!
- Grab Shannon's 65 Story Marketing Ideas to Grow Your Community and Business at joyfulbusinessrevolution.com
- Connect with Shannon on LinkedIn!
Connect with Your Host!
Melissa Snow is a Business Relationship Strategist dedicated to empowering women in entrepreneurship. She founded the Powerful Women Rising Community, which provides female business owners with essential support and resources for business growth.
Melissa's other mission is to revolutionize networking, promoting authenticity and genuine connections over sleazy sales tactics. She runs an incredible monthly Virtual Speed Networking Event which you can attend once at no cost using the code FIRSTTIME
She lives in Colorado Springs with two dogs, her soul cat Giorgio and any number of foster kittens. She loves iced coffee, Taylor Swift, and Threads.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, m Shannon Hernandez, welcome to the
podcast.
Thank you, so excited to behere.
Yes, I'm so excited to have youand I always love it when I
have a guest who I connectedwith through networking, because
then I get to prove a point toeveryone who listens to the
podcast that networking actuallydoes work.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It works, if you work it.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Absolutely it does.
It does.
So you and I have a mutualfriend, a fabulous woman, Becky
Claybaugh.
She's been a guest on thepodcast before and she
introduced us.
She told me that you would be afantastic guest, and so I'm so
excited to talk to you today.
So, before we dive in, telleverybody a little bit about you
and about what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, so first of all , I think everyone should know
that I am obsessed with joy andI love helping people find their
unique flavor of joy, whetherthat's in life or in marketing,
and just really my big missionin the world is to make the
world a more joyful place, so Ithink that's really important
Outside of like the joy work, soto speak.
(01:09):
I'm an email marketing andmessaging strategist and I help
established business ownersreally step into that next level
of marketing and theirmessaging and that thought
leadership that's going to helpthem convey the depth that
they're known for, the body ofwork or works that they're known
(01:30):
for, and keep everythingcohesive, tied with a really
great messaging strategy.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Love that.
So just in case anyone else iswondering this what's the
difference between what you doas an email marketing strategist
and a messaging expert versuslike a copywriter?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah.
So there could certainly belayovers, because my background
is in conversion copy.
But when I focus solely onconversion copy or copywriting,
it was like, hey, I need a fivesequence email sequence for this
launch that's coming up.
Or hey, five sequence emailsequence for this launch that's
(02:07):
coming up.
Or hey, redo my home page.
All of which are very importantthings.
But as a messaging strategist,I actually take in a client and
I look at everything.
I look at their LinkedIn, Ilook at their Instagram, I look
at the books they've publishedor where they're headed in their
business, where we can sort oflike up level the entire
messaging experience.
So it's cohesive all the wayacross and it's one of my most
(02:28):
favorite things to do withpeople.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I love that.
That is brilliant and it's soimportant because that's one of
the things that I talk aboutwhen I'm talking about
networking and we talk aboutauthenticity and people think
like, oh, just be myself, that'sauthenticity.
And it is Also of the things Italk about too is like, if I
hear you speak at a conferenceand then I look at your Facebook
page and then I look at yourwebsite and then I look at your
(02:53):
Instagram, I shouldn't feel likeI'm looking at four different
people, right, like sometimes weuse one in a more personal way
or we, you know, tweak the waythat we engage on different
platforms.
But it sounds like what you doreally is help make sure that
all of the places we'reconnecting with people, which is
networking we are doing it in aconsistent way and the way, the
(03:14):
intentional way right,sometimes we're consistent but
not intentional, so I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, and it can even go a little deeper, you know.
So, like I have a client rightnow, I have several clients
right now, but one in particularshe is trying to break off the
personal brand now, which is aspeaking brand and soon to be
author brand, from the companyshe's built.
(03:43):
And this is an interesting place.
I mean, I was here a few yearsago, right, like when I
rebranded to Joyful BusinessRevolution.
The company became a voice, andthen I have my speaking and
author brand and that kind ofhas its own vibe and voice, and
so there's a lot to consider inthat particular situation.
Right, building brand voiceplaybooks for people so that if
(04:07):
they do bring on a copywriter,the copywriter has one central
location to look at everythingand say, oh, these are the words
we don't use, oh, this is thetone that the person or the
brand takes, oh, these are thewords that are like our pillars
and building out messagingpillars for people, so they know
always what to talk about, orat least always what to tie
(04:30):
everything back in to, becausethat's how you get known for
what you do right, yeah, yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I love that so much.
So today we're talkingspecifically about email
marketing, and I think this is agreat topic because we hear a
lot, especially recently, likeyou don't own your audience on
social media.
Right, you do own your audiencein your email, and so that
makes it really important.
But one of the things that youtalk about a lot is how you have
an ability to connect with youraudience in email marketing in
(05:02):
a different way than you domaybe on, like, other social
media platforms.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, I think so.
First, I think I'm going to runa campaign called Make Email
Fun Again, because I thinkpeople need to just have a lot
more freaking fun with theiremail audience.
I think a lot of the reasonsemail has gotten like a bad rep,
so to speak, is people only useit to try and sell something,
and we know that's not going towork.
(05:28):
That wouldn't work if youwalked into a networking event
either and tried to sellsomething right Like.
It just doesn't work for usrelationship driven people.
So I really had to reframe how Ithink about my email, first as
a community, and that was thebiggest step.
That made the connection feelvery different.
And in a community, you wanttwo-way conversation, right?
(05:50):
So you will often get emailsfrom me where I say, hey, what
do you think about this?
I have this idea and it's justtwo-way conversation that just
goes back and forth, and thatfeels really good to me.
The other reason I love emailmarketing is, I believe, when
it's done right and to me thatmeans it's fun, it's focused,
(06:11):
you have a plan, it's regular,right, you're having fun with
the people on your email listand you're really building that
trust and that connection whenthat's done right.
You can step away from thesocial media hamster wheel and
go live your life outside ofbeing like an influencer or
(06:32):
social media star.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, which turns out is not all of our aspirations.
Absolutely, we are not all onthe influencer train.
I love that because I, you know, in the Powerful Women, rising
Business, growth community, Ihave so many women and we have
this conversation so often whenthey're like I know I need to be
on social media more, I know Ineed to be on Instagram, I know
(06:56):
I need to do LinkedIn.
I know I need to do, and I'malways like do you though?
Yeah, do you.
And there's so many messagesout there of like this is what
you have to be doing, and I loveit when I get to talk to
somebody who is like actually,you don't have to do that that
way, you can do it this way.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Absolutely.
One of the things we teach hereat Joyful Business Revolution
is one social media platform yes, I said one plus your email is
all you will ever need, honestly, but whether you choose
whatever for social media orwhatever for email, you have to
have that relationship-drivencontent right and the messaging
(07:39):
strategy and kind of the planand the roadmap to help you
achieve your goals.
So I want to encourage you,Melissa, to tell all your people
they can just let all of themgo, accept their favorite and
let's do it really well with anemail list.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yes, all right, you heard it here first.
Actually, you probably heard ithere for the 105th time, but
there it is for you in case youmissed it the first 104.
So I want to go back to whatyou said about thinking of your
email list as a community,because that really struck me
and I've never thought of myemail list that way.
But as soon as you said that, Iwas like, oh, I love that, like
I wanted to just get off thiscall and go email my list right
(08:16):
now.
So what recommendations or whattips do you have for people who
are listening to this and theyhave struggled with email
marketing because they feel like, does anyone even read their
emails anymore?
Or like I feel like every timeI email somebody I'm being
salesy, or like I feel likeevery time I email somebody I'm
being salesy.
If they want to shift thatperspective to a place of
(08:37):
building relationships withtheir email list and really
thinking of it as a community,what are some things that they
can start doing today or startthinking about differently to
kind of shift that?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah Well, I think you know this is sometimes.
This is a hard question and Ihave to have hard, hard
conversations with people whenthey come into my world, because
a lot of the times the peoplewho tell me I never read my
email and I'm like, OK, we gotto get this energy cleaned up,
(09:10):
Like, if you're actually wantingto use email as one of the main
revenue drivers in yourbusiness, maybe you should get
your email cleaned up and readthe ones that pertain to you and
take the rest off your listright.
So that's always a toughconversation to have because we
will often see the veryobjections that we give is
(09:31):
because of something that webelieve or do or value or don't
value or what that is.
So once we get past the cleanupthe energetic cleanup part and
we develop a fun way to buildconnection and converse with
your audience, you can sharestories, you can share resources
(09:52):
.
I mean, there's so many ways.
Honestly, we could do 52podcasts on 52 different things
you could do in your email.
But at the end of the day, whenyou think of it as a community
and you write it as if the oneperson over there is waiting on
the email to land because theycannot wait to read your email.
It often takes on a verydifferent energy, much of the
(10:13):
same energy that a lot of peopleput into social posting, right,
but the benefit, I believe, ofthe email list is I don't have
to post that much on socialanymore, right, and that's one
of the reasons that I'm such aproponent of it, plus owning
your data.
But I don't want to be theinfluencer, right.
(10:33):
That's never why I started thisbusiness, yeah, but I don't
want to be the influencer, right, that's never why I started
this business.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, and I love what you said, too, about the emails
that you send asking questions,because I think sometimes we
don't we think so much aboutemail marketing being a one way
street, right, I'm just sendingmy broadcast out to all of the
people and sometimes, when theyreply back, I'm like, oh weird,
there's someone out there, what?
So, yeah, I love that idea oflike remembering that there are
people out there that you'retalking to and that a lot of
(10:59):
them really do want to engage ina conversation with you if you
open up that option.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, and I think the other thing too you know the
email still, when it's doneright, and it's done what I
would say ethically andrelationship driven, it still
outperforms every kind of socialmedia marketing to date.
Any study you go show will showthat over time, and so people
(11:25):
also have to be in it for thelong run.
Right, and we live in a societywhere we want everything quick
like.
We want everything quick Like,we want to see the likes, we
want to see the comments.
Oh my God, it didn't work.
We take it off Y'all.
That is a mental place that isnot healthy, yeah, and so I
think part of what email doesfor me is it keeps my nervous
(11:48):
system stable.
Yeah, no kidding, which is huge, right, I'm in year 13 of
building business.
Like, I didn't get to where Igot because I was checking likes
and comments and freaking outand redoing stuff, and there was
a time in my life where thatkind of was the trap that I fell
in and I didn't like it.
(12:09):
I didn't like how I felt, Ijust didn't like it.
And so over the last year, Iactually closed down a Facebook
group, got everyone who wantedto ever hear from me on social
media over to LinkedIn and now Isolely use LinkedIn and
Facebook, linkedin and email.
I'm sorry, that is like happysauce for me yeah, that's
(12:30):
awesome, that's so smart.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So this is a good question too, because I actually
I was just speaking yesterdayabout networking and we were
having this conversation abouthow there are people who say
networking is just makingfriends, and I'm like networking
isn't just making friends.
Making friends is makingfriends right Networking and
maybe you will make friendswhile you're networking you
likely will, but it's not justmaking friends, and I think this
(12:55):
is an important part of this.
Conversation with email, too islike we're building a community
, we're creating relationships,we're having fun, we're having
conversations with the people onour email list.
But let's also not pretend thatwe're not trying to build a
business.
Right, we still need to makesales, we still need to convert
to clients.
So how do we do that in a waythat is ethical and still feels
(13:18):
good to us heart-centeredentrepreneurs who don't want to
feel salesy, but we want to sellthings?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Oh well, we got to sell shit.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
We do.
It turns out if you are abusiness owner, you have to sell
shit at some point.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
That's right.
Well, you know, I think thisgoes.
This is why I love messagingstrategy as opposed to just
copywriting.
Right?
Because as a messagingstrategist, I'm really thinking
about okay, over 90 days.
Let's just say, to keep it,keep it real.
Right, what's happening in 90days in your business?
Okay, maybe you're speaking inthree places.
(13:56):
You are putting out a newresource of some kind and you're
gonna enroll in a program.
Let's just say that's it right.
How do we build all of that into achieve the goals we wanna
achieve while using storytelling, helping people with what they
need right?
(14:22):
Giving them the resources,inviting them into conversations
, giving them the opportunitythat, if they don't want to hear
about the launch, they canclick here and not hear any more
about it.
Like to me, that's one of thebest things about emails.
We always have this disclaimerwhen we're gonna enroll into
something, and it literally saysum, your consent matters to me.
If you do not want to hear anymore about this, which is
(14:46):
happening for the next fourweeks, click here.
And do you know how many peopleemail and say thank you for
giving us that option?
Yeah, and that's like somethingso simple that everyone could
be doing with their email Right.
So how do we build that 90 daystrategy that is empathetic,
(15:06):
transparent, feels good, isauthentic, uses story, sells
when we need to sell, shows youas an expert and whatever else
we want to achieve?
And that's really theplayground that I play in,
because when you do it well,people are going to be like yes,
(15:26):
it's for me, no, it's not, butthey're not going to feel sold
to the day.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, so what are some tips that you have for how
we can show up authentically inour emails?
We can build thoserelationships in our messaging
but also still create emailsthat convert.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, I developed something quite a few years back
called the profit-drivenmessaging ecosystem, and this
was with a lot of trial anderror over the years, as we do
as business owners and helpingpeople, and there's six types of
messaging in this ecosystem,right, and each type has a
(16:09):
particular function.
So, for example, connectioncontent shows who we are as
humans.
Mission-driven content getspeople rallied around our
mission right.
I said at the beginning like Icould have told you a million
things about email, but Istarted with joy.
Like my mission is joy, right,because people always buy the
(16:29):
why before they buy the what orthe how.
Right, so people want to knowthis, especially today.
They want to know your values,they want to know what you stand
for, right.
So there's six types of contentand when I design email
marketing strategies, we cyclethrough those six within the
goal of what we're trying to getdone.
One of the six is direct offercontent because, as Melissa and
(16:53):
I said, we got to sell.
We all have bills to pay, butyou can imagine if you got a
cadence right over 90 days, andone was about your, your mission
, and one was about a clientstory and what they achieved,
and one was about somethingyou're excited about, that
you're reading, or you spoke atan event or whatever, and then
(17:13):
we dropped in a direct offer hey, I've got five spots to do.
Whatever.
Right Like this is what I'mtalking about.
It needs to be an ecosystemthat's very well balanced.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, that's so smart .
And that comes back to thewhole planning piece, right?
Having an idea of what it lookslike in big picture which is a
lot about what you do, right, asopposed to copywriting is very
like finite and we're just doingthis little part.
Looking at the big picture, andhow is this all going to work
together over 90 days or sixmonths, or the course of your
(17:44):
business, which I think is, assomeone who is trying to be more
intentional and more consistentin email marketing, I think is
really smart and makes a lot ofsense.
So this is a completelyself-serving question, but maybe
you know people probably alsowant to know the answer.
What would you say is one ofthe biggest mistakes that you
(18:07):
see entrepreneurs making intheir email marketing?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, I think the biggest one is you invite people
to your list and then you don'ttalk to them regularly.
And then it's time to talk tothem and you feel really
fricking weird.
And, by the way, if you've everdone that, you're not alone.
This happens to lots of people.
The way out of that little bitof a pickle is to be honest and
say hey name, I disappeared fortwo years and here's what's been
(18:39):
going on in my life.
I'd love to hear from you Tellme something going on in your
world.
I'd love to hear from you Tellme something going on in your
world.
So, relationship, right.
So that's like a side note tothe question.
After that, the biggest thing Isee with people who email
regularly is focusing solely onselling without offering the
value.
Right, and so I love what Icall clarity-driven content
(19:05):
right, it's content that helpspeople see exactly where they
are in the process, exactlywhere they are, what their gap
is right now, why they can't dothe thing they want to do right,
and how you do that is youprovide education.
You give some good stories thatare true and give some
inspiration to people, becausewe should be making people feel
(19:27):
better when they read our wordsright, and then your audience
starts to look forward tohearing from you.
But it's also because you'veput your perspective in there
and it's not just pitch afterpitch after pitch.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
Wow, this is really helpful.
I feel like sometimes I have apodcast interview that I do and
I'm like I'm going to have tolisten to this one.
I try to make myself listen toall of them, but this one I'm
like I might have to listen tothis one again with, like a pen
and paper, because you'retelling me all the something
that I personally am trying tobe better about and you have
(20:08):
something to offer to people tohelp them with that story
marketing, right?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I do, yeah.
So one of the most commonquestions I get when I speak or
when I'm working with clients Ijust love everyone.
If you're listening to this,just raise your hand.
If it applies to you, I don'tknow what to write about.
It's a common thing, right?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And so.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I and it's crazy to me because, as a messaging
strategist like I, don't haveenough time to write all the
things I want to write for myclients to send out to their
list, right.
So words is definitely my gift.
It doesn't mean it has to beyour gift, but what I put
together is a resource, afterbeing asked this over and over
(20:54):
and over again, with 65 curatedstory marketing ideas.
And these are story marketingideas.
They're literally a list of 65.
Some of them are meant to growyour relationship and in your
community.
Some of them are meant toconvert prospects to clients.
Some of them are to show peoplemore deeper into your mission
(21:17):
and to your values and what youstand for.
And it's a handy list so thatyou never have to say I don't
know what to write about again.
But it also invites you to takethe story angle aspect.
Also in this guide is a monthlyplanning template.
It helps you organize yourstory prompts so that you can be
(21:38):
a little more organized, andthen a story organizer tool that
helps you map out how the storyis going to flow so it doesn't
feel disjointed.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Oh, I love that.
I'm going to go get that rightnow, actually mostly because I
want it and also because I wantto be on your email list because
it sounds like it's fun.
It is fun.
You can't be called the joyfulbusiness revolution and then not
have fun emails.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
So I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So obviously, if people want to connect with you,
they can go and download that65 story marketing ideas.
That's amazing.
Where else can they find you?
You mentioned LinkedIn.
What's the best way for them toconnect with you?
Learn more about you, find outwhat you do and how to work with
you.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, you can come to joyfulbusinessrevolutioncom.
You'll be immersed in joyeverywhere on the website.
And if you do connect onLinkedIn, please connect and
send a message with yourconnection request.
Let me know you're coming fromMelissa's show and I'd love to
talk to you there on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Awesome, amazing.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the podcast.
This was a great conversation.
I feel like I could have youback and we could split this
into like an eight part series,so we might have to do that.
That would be so fun, awesome.
Thank you so much.
Okay, thank you.
Hello, m Shannon Hernandez, welcome to the
podcast.
Thank you, so excited to behere.
Yes, I'm so excited to have youand I always love it when I
have a guest who I connectedwith through networking, because
then I get to prove a point toeveryone who listens to the
podcast that networking actuallydoes work.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It works, if you work it.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Absolutely it does.
It does.
So you and I have a mutualfriend, a fabulous woman, Becky
Claybaugh.
She's been a guest on thepodcast before and she
introduced us.
She told me that you would be afantastic guest, and so I'm so
excited to talk to you today.
So, before we dive in, telleverybody a little bit about you
and about what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, so first of all , I think everyone should know
that I am obsessed with joy andI love helping people find their
unique flavor of joy, whetherthat's in life or in marketing,
and just really my big missionin the world is to make the
world a more joyful place, so Ithink that's really important
Outside of like the joy work, soto speak.
(01:09):
I'm an email marketing andmessaging strategist and I help
established business ownersreally step into that next level
of marketing and theirmessaging and that thought
leadership that's going to helpthem convey the depth that
they're known for, the body ofwork or works that they're known
(01:30):
for, and keep everythingcohesive, tied with a really
great messaging strategy.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Love that.
So just in case anyone else iswondering this what's the
difference between what you doas an email marketing strategist
and a messaging expert versuslike a copywriter?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah.
So there could certainly belayovers, because my background
is in conversion copy.
But when I focus solely onconversion copy or copywriting,
it was like, hey, I need a fivesequence email sequence for this
launch that's coming up.
Or hey, five sequence emailsequence for this launch that's
(02:07):
coming up.
Or hey, redo my home page.
All of which are very importantthings.
But as a messaging strategist,I actually take in a client and
I look at everything.
I look at their LinkedIn, Ilook at their Instagram, I look
at the books they've publishedor where they're headed in their
business, where we can sort oflike up level the entire
messaging experience.
So it's cohesive all the wayacross and it's one of my most
(02:28):
favorite things to do withpeople.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I love that.
That is brilliant and it's soimportant because that's one of
the things that I talk aboutwhen I'm talking about
networking and we talk aboutauthenticity and people think
like, oh, just be myself, that'sauthenticity.
And it is Also of the things Italk about too is like, if I
hear you speak at a conferenceand then I look at your Facebook
page and then I look at yourwebsite and then I look at your
(02:53):
Instagram, I shouldn't feel likeI'm looking at four different
people, right, like sometimes weuse one in a more personal way
or we, you know, tweak the waythat we engage on different
platforms.
But it sounds like what you doreally is help make sure that
all of the places we'reconnecting with people, which is
networking we are doing it in aconsistent way and the way, the
(03:14):
intentional way right,sometimes we're consistent but
not intentional, so I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, and it can even go a little deeper, you know.
So, like I have a client rightnow, I have several clients
right now, but one in particularshe is trying to break off the
personal brand now, which is aspeaking brand and soon to be
author brand, from the companyshe's built.
(03:43):
And this is an interesting place.
I mean, I was here a few yearsago, right, like when I
rebranded to Joyful BusinessRevolution.
The company became a voice, andthen I have my speaking and
author brand and that kind ofhas its own vibe and voice, and
so there's a lot to consider inthat particular situation.
Right, building brand voiceplaybooks for people so that if
(04:07):
they do bring on a copywriter,the copywriter has one central
location to look at everythingand say, oh, these are the words
we don't use, oh, this is thetone that the person or the
brand takes, oh, these are thewords that are like our pillars
and building out messagingpillars for people, so they know
always what to talk about, orat least always what to tie
(04:30):
everything back in to, becausethat's how you get known for
what you do right, yeah, yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I love that so much.
So today we're talkingspecifically about email
marketing, and I think this is agreat topic because we hear a
lot, especially recently, likeyou don't own your audience on
social media.
Right, you do own your audiencein your email, and so that
makes it really important.
But one of the things that youtalk about a lot is how you have
an ability to connect with youraudience in email marketing in
(05:02):
a different way than you domaybe on, like, other social
media platforms.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, I think so.
First, I think I'm going to runa campaign called Make Email
Fun Again, because I thinkpeople need to just have a lot
more freaking fun with theiremail audience.
I think a lot of the reasonsemail has gotten like a bad rep,
so to speak, is people only useit to try and sell something,
and we know that's not going towork.
(05:28):
That wouldn't work if youwalked into a networking event
either and tried to sellsomething right Like.
It just doesn't work for usrelationship driven people.
So I really had to reframe how Ithink about my email, first as
a community, and that was thebiggest step.
That made the connection feelvery different.
And in a community, you wanttwo-way conversation, right?
(05:50):
So you will often get emailsfrom me where I say, hey, what
do you think about this?
I have this idea and it's justtwo-way conversation that just
goes back and forth, and thatfeels really good to me.
The other reason I love emailmarketing is, I believe, when
it's done right and to me thatmeans it's fun, it's focused,
(06:11):
you have a plan, it's regular,right, you're having fun with
the people on your email listand you're really building that
trust and that connection whenthat's done right.
You can step away from thesocial media hamster wheel and
go live your life outside ofbeing like an influencer or
(06:32):
social media star.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, which turns out is not all of our aspirations.
Absolutely, we are not all onthe influencer train.
I love that because I, you know, in the Powerful Women, rising
Business, growth community, Ihave so many women and we have
this conversation so often whenthey're like I know I need to be
on social media more, I know Ineed to be on Instagram, I know
(06:56):
I need to do LinkedIn.
I know I need to do, and I'malways like do you though?
Yeah, do you.
And there's so many messagesout there of like this is what
you have to be doing, and I loveit when I get to talk to
somebody who is like actually,you don't have to do that that
way, you can do it this way.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Absolutely.
One of the things we teach hereat Joyful Business Revolution
is one social media platform yes, I said one plus your email is
all you will ever need, honestly, but whether you choose
whatever for social media orwhatever for email, you have to
have that relationship-drivencontent right and the messaging
(07:39):
strategy and kind of the planand the roadmap to help you
achieve your goals.
So I want to encourage you,Melissa, to tell all your people
they can just let all of themgo, accept their favorite and
let's do it really well with anemail list.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yes, all right, you heard it here first.
Actually, you probably heard ithere for the 105th time, but
there it is for you in case youmissed it the first 104.
So I want to go back to whatyou said about thinking of your
email list as a community,because that really struck me
and I've never thought of myemail list that way.
But as soon as you said that, Iwas like, oh, I love that, like
I wanted to just get off thiscall and go email my list right
(08:16):
now.
So what recommendations or whattips do you have for people who
are listening to this and theyhave struggled with email
marketing because they feel like, does anyone even read their
emails anymore?
Or like I feel like every timeI email somebody I'm being
salesy, or like I feel likeevery time I email somebody I'm
being salesy.
If they want to shift thatperspective to a place of
(08:37):
building relationships withtheir email list and really
thinking of it as a community,what are some things that they
can start doing today or startthinking about differently to
kind of shift that?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah Well, I think you know this is sometimes.
This is a hard question and Ihave to have hard, hard
conversations with people whenthey come into my world, because
a lot of the times the peoplewho tell me I never read my
email and I'm like, OK, we gotto get this energy cleaned up,
(09:10):
Like, if you're actually wantingto use email as one of the main
revenue drivers in yourbusiness, maybe you should get
your email cleaned up and readthe ones that pertain to you and
take the rest off your listright.
So that's always a toughconversation to have because we
will often see the veryobjections that we give is
(09:31):
because of something that webelieve or do or value or don't
value or what that is.
So once we get past the cleanupthe energetic cleanup part and
we develop a fun way to buildconnection and converse with
your audience, you can sharestories, you can share resources
(09:52):
.
I mean, there's so many ways.
Honestly, we could do 52podcasts on 52 different things
you could do in your email.
But at the end of the day, whenyou think of it as a community
and you write it as if the oneperson over there is waiting on
the email to land because theycannot wait to read your email.
It often takes on a verydifferent energy, much of the
(10:13):
same energy that a lot of peopleput into social posting, right,
but the benefit, I believe, ofthe email list is I don't have
to post that much on socialanymore, right, and that's one
of the reasons that I'm such aproponent of it, plus owning
your data.
But I don't want to be theinfluencer, right.
(10:33):
That's never why I started thisbusiness, yeah, but I don't
want to be the influencer, right, that's never why I started
this business.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, and I love what you said, too, about the emails
that you send asking questions,because I think sometimes we
don't we think so much aboutemail marketing being a one way
street, right, I'm just sendingmy broadcast out to all of the
people and sometimes, when theyreply back, I'm like, oh weird,
there's someone out there, what?
So, yeah, I love that idea oflike remembering that there are
people out there that you'retalking to and that a lot of
(10:59):
them really do want to engage ina conversation with you if you
open up that option.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, and I think the other thing too you know the
email still, when it's doneright, and it's done what I
would say ethically andrelationship driven, it still
outperforms every kind of socialmedia marketing to date.
Any study you go show will showthat over time, and so people
(11:25):
also have to be in it for thelong run.
Right, and we live in a societywhere we want everything quick
like.
We want everything quick Like,we want to see the likes, we
want to see the comments.
Oh my God, it didn't work.
We take it off Y'all.
That is a mental place that isnot healthy, yeah, and so I
think part of what email doesfor me is it keeps my nervous
(11:48):
system stable.
Yeah, no kidding, which is huge, right, I'm in year 13 of
building business.
Like, I didn't get to where Igot because I was checking likes
and comments and freaking outand redoing stuff, and there was
a time in my life where thatkind of was the trap that I fell
in and I didn't like it.
(12:09):
I didn't like how I felt, Ijust didn't like it.
And so over the last year, Iactually closed down a Facebook
group, got everyone who wantedto ever hear from me on social
media over to LinkedIn and now Isolely use LinkedIn and
Facebook, linkedin and email.
I'm sorry, that is like happysauce for me yeah, that's
(12:30):
awesome, that's so smart.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So this is a good question too, because I actually
I was just speaking yesterdayabout networking and we were
having this conversation abouthow there are people who say
networking is just makingfriends, and I'm like networking
isn't just making friends.
Making friends is makingfriends right Networking and
maybe you will make friendswhile you're networking you
likely will, but it's not justmaking friends, and I think this
(12:55):
is an important part of this.
Conversation with email, too islike we're building a community
, we're creating relationships,we're having fun, we're having
conversations with the people onour email list.
But let's also not pretend thatwe're not trying to build a
business.
Right, we still need to makesales, we still need to convert
to clients.
So how do we do that in a waythat is ethical and still feels
(13:18):
good to us heart-centeredentrepreneurs who don't want to
feel salesy, but we want to sellthings?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Oh well, we got to sell shit.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
We do.
It turns out if you are abusiness owner, you have to sell
shit at some point.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
That's right.
Well, you know, I think thisgoes.
This is why I love messagingstrategy as opposed to just
copywriting.
Right?
Because as a messagingstrategist, I'm really thinking
about okay, over 90 days.
Let's just say, to keep it,keep it real.
Right, what's happening in 90days in your business?
Okay, maybe you're speaking inthree places.
(13:56):
You are putting out a newresource of some kind and you're
gonna enroll in a program.
Let's just say that's it right.
How do we build all of that into achieve the goals we wanna
achieve while using storytelling, helping people with what they
need right?
(14:22):
Giving them the resources,inviting them into conversations
, giving them the opportunitythat, if they don't want to hear
about the launch, they canclick here and not hear any more
about it.
Like to me, that's one of thebest things about emails.
We always have this disclaimerwhen we're gonna enroll into
something, and it literally saysum, your consent matters to me.
If you do not want to hear anymore about this, which is
(14:46):
happening for the next fourweeks, click here.
And do you know how many peopleemail and say thank you for
giving us that option?
Yeah, and that's like somethingso simple that everyone could
be doing with their email Right.
So how do we build that 90 daystrategy that is empathetic,
(15:06):
transparent, feels good, isauthentic, uses story, sells
when we need to sell, shows youas an expert and whatever else
we want to achieve?
And that's really theplayground that I play in,
because when you do it well,people are going to be like yes,
(15:26):
it's for me, no, it's not, butthey're not going to feel sold
to the day.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, so what are some tips that you have for how
we can show up authentically inour emails?
We can build thoserelationships in our messaging
but also still create emailsthat convert.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, I developed something quite a few years back
called the profit-drivenmessaging ecosystem, and this
was with a lot of trial anderror over the years, as we do
as business owners and helpingpeople, and there's six types of
messaging in this ecosystem,right, and each type has a
(16:09):
particular function.
So, for example, connectioncontent shows who we are as
humans.
Mission-driven content getspeople rallied around our
mission right.
I said at the beginning like Icould have told you a million
things about email, but Istarted with joy.
Like my mission is joy, right,because people always buy the
(16:29):
why before they buy the what orthe how.
Right, so people want to knowthis, especially today.
They want to know your values,they want to know what you stand
for, right.
So there's six types of contentand when I design email
marketing strategies, we cyclethrough those six within the
goal of what we're trying to getdone.
One of the six is direct offercontent because, as Melissa and
(16:53):
I said, we got to sell.
We all have bills to pay, butyou can imagine if you got a
cadence right over 90 days, andone was about your, your mission
, and one was about a clientstory and what they achieved,
and one was about somethingyou're excited about, that
you're reading, or you spoke atan event or whatever, and then
(17:13):
we dropped in a direct offer hey, I've got five spots to do.
Whatever.
Right Like this is what I'mtalking about.
It needs to be an ecosystemthat's very well balanced.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, that's so smart .
And that comes back to thewhole planning piece, right?
Having an idea of what it lookslike in big picture which is a
lot about what you do, right, asopposed to copywriting is very
like finite and we're just doingthis little part.
Looking at the big picture, andhow is this all going to work
together over 90 days or sixmonths, or the course of your
(17:44):
business, which I think is, assomeone who is trying to be more
intentional and more consistentin email marketing, I think is
really smart and makes a lot ofsense.
So this is a completelyself-serving question, but maybe
you know people probably alsowant to know the answer.
What would you say is one ofthe biggest mistakes that you
(18:07):
see entrepreneurs making intheir email marketing?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, I think the biggest one is you invite people
to your list and then you don'ttalk to them regularly.
And then it's time to talk tothem and you feel really
fricking weird.
And, by the way, if you've everdone that, you're not alone.
This happens to lots of people.
The way out of that little bitof a pickle is to be honest and
say hey name, I disappeared fortwo years and here's what's been
(18:39):
going on in my life.
I'd love to hear from you Tellme something going on in your
world.
I'd love to hear from you Tellme something going on in your
world.
So, relationship, right.
So that's like a side note tothe question.
After that, the biggest thing Isee with people who email
regularly is focusing solely onselling without offering the
value.
Right, and so I love what Icall clarity-driven content
(19:05):
right, it's content that helpspeople see exactly where they
are in the process, exactlywhere they are, what their gap
is right now, why they can't dothe thing they want to do right,
and how you do that is youprovide education.
You give some good stories thatare true and give some
inspiration to people, becausewe should be making people feel
(19:27):
better when they read our wordsright, and then your audience
starts to look forward tohearing from you.
But it's also because you'veput your perspective in there
and it's not just pitch afterpitch after pitch.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
Wow, this is really helpful.
I feel like sometimes I have apodcast interview that I do and
I'm like I'm going to have tolisten to this one.
I try to make myself listen toall of them, but this one I'm
like I might have to listen tothis one again with, like a pen
and paper, because you'retelling me all the something
that I personally am trying tobe better about and you have
(20:08):
something to offer to people tohelp them with that story
marketing, right?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I do, yeah.
So one of the most commonquestions I get when I speak or
when I'm working with clients Ijust love everyone.
If you're listening to this,just raise your hand.
If it applies to you, I don'tknow what to write about.
It's a common thing, right?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And so.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I and it's crazy to me because, as a messaging
strategist like I, don't haveenough time to write all the
things I want to write for myclients to send out to their
list, right.
So words is definitely my gift.
It doesn't mean it has to beyour gift, but what I put
together is a resource, afterbeing asked this over and over
(20:54):
and over again, with 65 curatedstory marketing ideas.
And these are story marketingideas.
They're literally a list of 65.
Some of them are meant to growyour relationship and in your
community.
Some of them are meant toconvert prospects to clients.
Some of them are to show peoplemore deeper into your mission
(21:17):
and to your values and what youstand for.
And it's a handy list so thatyou never have to say I don't
know what to write about again.
But it also invites you to takethe story angle aspect.
Also in this guide is a monthlyplanning template.
It helps you organize yourstory prompts so that you can be
(21:38):
a little more organized, andthen a story organizer tool that
helps you map out how the storyis going to flow so it doesn't
feel disjointed.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Oh, I love that.
I'm going to go get that rightnow, actually mostly because I
want it and also because I wantto be on your email list because
it sounds like it's fun.
It is fun.
You can't be called the joyfulbusiness revolution and then not
have fun emails.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
So I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So obviously, if people want to connect with you,
they can go and download that65 story marketing ideas.
That's amazing.
Where else can they find you?
You mentioned LinkedIn.
What's the best way for them toconnect with you?
Learn more about you, find outwhat you do and how to work with
you.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, you can come to joyfulbusinessrevolutioncom.
You'll be immersed in joyeverywhere on the website.
And if you do connect onLinkedIn, please connect and
send a message with yourconnection request.
Let me know you're coming fromMelissa's show and I'd love to
talk to you there on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Awesome, amazing.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the podcast.
This was a great conversation.
I feel like I could have youback and we could split this
into like an eight part series,so we might have to do that.
That would be so fun, awesome.
Thank you so much.
Okay, thank you.
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