August 20, 2025 • 36 mins
Jennifer Garvey Berger designs and teaches leadership programs, coaches senior leaders and their teams, and supports new ways of thinking about strategy and people. In her four highly acclaimed books, Unleash Your Complexity Genius (co-authored with Carolyn Coughlin), Unlocking Leadership Mindtraps, Simple Habits for Complex Times (co-authored with Keith Johnston), and Changing on the Job, Jennifer builds on deep theoretical knowledge to offer practical ways to make leaders’ organizations more successful, their work more meaningful, and their lives more gratifying. Jennifer has worked with senior leaders in the private, non-profit, and government sectors worldwide (like Novartis, Google, KPMG, Intel, Microsoft, Wikimedia, and the New Zealand Department of Conservation).
Jennifer is a co-founder and CEO of Cultivating Leadership. She has a masters and a doctorate from Harvard University. Formerly an associate professor at George Mason University, Jennifer learned about deep change more than a decade ago when she turned down the tenure offer and moved to a small seaside village in New Zealand with her husband, two kids, and the family dog. While she still considers herself a Kiwi by choice, you can find her in the French countryside, where she has bought a house with eleven friends who live in community and try to keep the dog from terrifying the cats.
A Quote From This Episode
- “My job is to admire that meaning system and hold space for that meaning system to grow a little bit. My job is not to fix it…”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- 📗 Changing on the Job (Second Edition) by Jennifer Garvey-Berger
- 📗 Everyday Habits for Transforming Systems by Adam Kahane
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for Prague - October 15-18, 2025!
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
- Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
- Blog
My Approach to Hosting
- The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders Special episode.
Today we have Dr JenniferGarvey-Berger.
She's the author of fouracclaimed books on leadership
and she's co-founder and CEO ofCultivating Leadership, a
consultancy that servesexecutives and teams in the
private, nonprofit andgovernment sectors around the
world.
Her clients include Google,microsoft, novartis, wikipedia
(00:23):
and Oxfam International.
She is Senior ScientificAdvisor to the Interdevelopment
Goals, an international personalgrowth initiative based in
Sweden.
Jennifer, thank you so much forstopping by again and really,
really looking forward to thisconversation.
The second edition of Changingon the Job is out, and you know
(00:44):
what I've been excited for this.
I was excited in the lead upbecause you've done such a
beautiful job of kind ofengaging the community and
saying, hey, should I writeabout this, or should I go in
this direction, or what shouldwe?
So it was just a wonderful,wonderful lead up to the release
of the book.
I know it's been out for awhile now, but today we're going
to talk about forms of mind,complexity, fitness For those of
(01:06):
you geeks out there who areinto adult development.
Bill Torbert and Bob Keeganendorsed the book, so that's a
double win.
And, jennifer, thank you.
I'm going to stop talking andjust let you say a quick hello
from France.
What's going on?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (01:20):
Hey, scott, it's great to see you
again.
There were parts of the bookthat were really fun to be
working on and there were otherparts of the book that were
really unpleasant to be workingon, but one of the most fun
parts of it was when I wouldcome to my wits end and I would
turn to my LinkedIn communityand say, literally no idea what
to do now.
(01:40):
Can you people help me?
And it really did feel like Ihad a lot of friends helping.
Yeah, a lot of friends helpingwith this one, friends who I
don't even I don't even knowthem.
Yeah, and in the background,everybody at Cultivating
Leadership had access to themanuscript.
There was a Google doc andeverybody was dropping comments
(02:01):
into the manuscript the originalchanging on the job from
whatever 15 years ago, and thenthe manuscript that was
unfolding for the new one.
So I had a lot of support onthis one.
Scott Allen (02:16):
Oh, that's great Crowdsourcing at its best, okay,
so let's bring listeners in.
A little bit For listeners.
This is Jennifer's second timeon the podcast, so if you're
just dropping in push pause, golisten to that episode.
It's an incredible conversation.
There's a whole series thatstarted with Jonathan Reams on
adult development and have hadBill Torbert on the podcast, and
(02:38):
so there's all kinds ofopportunity to kind of get a
little bit of a primer on adultdevelopment.
But, jennifer, I'm going togive you a challenge Can you do
one or two minutes on forms ofmind?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (02:51):
No worries.
I remember when I asked BobKeegan how fast adult
development could be taught andhe said, yeah, I guess you could
do it in like a two week longform course.
Guess you could do it in like atwo week long form course, but
I don't like to do it in lessthan a semester.
And I was like I was thinkinglike five, 10, 90 minutes, like
(03:12):
I was in the minute space and hewas in the week space, which I
understand.
Okay, minute space.
So the idea here is that eachof us has kind of a lens through
which we see the world andwe're unaware of it.
It's invisible to us, it's justhow we see.
It shapes everything and it'svery easy to recognize in
(03:35):
children because their lens isso different from ours.
But it turns out there arethese organizing principles that
shape the lenses adults lookthrough as well.
And I tend to kind of focus onfour of those adult spaces,
although two of them are muchmore common for adults.
(03:55):
The first one I focus on I callthe self-sovereign mind, because
it's the time when we are kindof the kings or queens of our
own dominion.
But that dominion is just one,one person.
We don't take the perspectivesof others.
We are not yet able tointernalize the perspective of
(04:16):
somebody else.
We're not able yet to seeabstraction, complexity.
All that stuff strikes us asproblematic, probably untruthful
or in some way manipulative,because people are describing a
world we have no access to.
So this is the self-sovereignmind long recognized in children
(04:37):
and only more recentlyrecognized as a full-fledged
adult way of seeing the world.
I think it's probably morecommon now than it used to be,
because people are under so muchpressure, and with pressure we
can either metabolize pressureinto development or we
metabolize pressure intofallback, and the easiest way to
(05:01):
metabolize pressure is intofallback.
So I think we're seeing more ofthis self-sovereign form of
mind than we have seen before.
Most adults move past that.
Most adults reach into theplace where they not only take
in other people's perspectivesbut kind of swallow them whole
(05:21):
and live inside the perspectivesof others.
There are clues about how I'mdoing in the world, what's good
and bad all come from somethingoutside them.
We call that the socializedmind, because it allows us to
live in societies, because forthe first time we're able to
subordinate our own interests onbehalf of a collective, because
the collective is us in manyways.
Scott Allen (05:42):
Yeah, so if I grow up in Tennessee in a Baptist
community, that's conservative,that's the waters I'm swimming
in, so to speak, and I take thatin correct.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (05:51):
You take that in and for most of human
history that was probably thebest, most expansive thing you
needed to do, because yourcommunity in Tennessee was going
to hold you for the rest ofyour life.
You're going to live there,you're going to work there.
You're going to live there.
You're going to work there,you're going to die there.
(06:12):
That was where you were goingto be.
Now that set of perspectives isprobably too small for many
people trying to function inthis crazy, mixed up,
unimaginable world that we livein.
So many adults get kind of tiredor overwhelmed by trying to
take in the perspectives ofothers and find their way that
way and they pick up the pen andbegin to write their own story.
They say, wait, I'm not goingto look out there, I'm going to
(06:35):
look in here, and in that waythey are able to kind of decide
what their values are, how theywant to see the world, how they
want to be in themselves.
And then for very few adults,but maybe more than has been
true before, you get people whostop thinking oh, my writing my
(07:00):
own story isn't actually thetruth of the matter.
The truth is I both write andam written by.
Both of these things aresimultaneously true.
We call that theself-transforming mind, because
that's the mind that isconstantly kind of flowing with
complexity, change, uncertainty,uncertainty, and doing that
(07:22):
dance in order to growthemselves as they find
innovative solutions to theirchallenges.
That was totally not threeminutes.
Scott Allen (07:34):
But it was awesome, okay, wonderful.
So we've got the forms of mind.
Now let's talk a little bitabout complexity, fitness, and
then we're going to move intothe conversation for the day
about how do we, with a group ofhuman beings, design
programming to help facilitate.
(07:55):
So let's talk a little bitabout complexity, fitness, and
then I think we'll have thefoundation set.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (08:00):
Awesome.
So complexity fitness, whichwas actually a term brought to
me by my colleagues and friendsCarolyn Coughlin and Patrice
Laslett, with my work atCultivating Leadership.
This is the idea that each ofthese forms of mind are like
different fitness levels forfacing the complexity of the
(08:22):
world, and you can imagine thisearlier one that I described,
this self-sovereign form of mind, doesn't handle complexity very
well.
Not a lot of fitness forcomplexity, a lot of fitness for
lots of other great things, butfor complexity not so much.
And as we grow through thesedifferent forms of mind that
(08:42):
I've just described, it's almostas if we reach different levels
of capability and fitness forhandling a world that is
increasingly complex.
Scott Allen (08:53):
So you and I are both working with organizations
and you're in an organizationand we're doing some type of
programming and it could be forthose who are doing coaching.
I know in the book there's alot of kind of work on look if
we're coaching.
This is ways to be thinkingabout this and what I love about
your work, and have alwaysloved about your work, is that
(09:15):
it is really nicely grounded inlook.
We are working withorganizations and we are
embedded in that context.
So how do we take this thinking, which is beautiful, wonderful,
awesome thinking, and actuallyoperationalize it, actually
design programming that?
And for listeners, you canimagine you're sitting in a room
(09:35):
and there's a hundred people.
Well, think of the differentforms of mind.
If we could visualize thatpeople's minds are in a lot of
different places.
How they're internalizingliterally what you just said
it's happening are in a lot ofdifferent places.
How they're internalizingliterally what you just said
it's happening in different ways, correct, jennifer?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (09:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
Scott Allen (09:51):
And so how do you design in a way where you can
communicate with those fourgeneral frames of mind or forms
of mind?
How do you design in a waythat's communicating and helping
each of them progress ordevelop?
Tim O'Brien was on the podcast.
I was telling you and it wasgreat because he wrote this
(10:13):
paper.
It was called Looking forDevelopment and Leadership
Development so that it'sdevelopmental.
It's a developmental experience.
So bring listeners into a fewways.
You're thinking about thatbecause I just love, love, love
that.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (10:27):
Yeah, I have been thinking about this
question.
You know, I wrote my doctoraldissertation on this question,
whatever 20, several years agoit was terrifying.
You know, I still think about itall the time.
We just designed a totally newprogram, meant to be
developmental for 200 leaders ata time, and we really thought
(10:48):
about this question of how doyou get it developmental for 200
leaders at a time when thoseleaders are likely across a
spectrum and depending on whatyou had for breakfast one
morning and what you have forbreakfast the next morning, you
might be in a totally differentplace, you yourself.
So the first thing I think wehave to get clear on is what do
(11:09):
we mean by developmental?
Scott Allen (11:11):
Yes.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (11:12):
Right, what is it that we're on about?
And so those folks who thinkabout the difference between
what is often called horizontaldevelopment and vertical
development right, horizontal iskind of I think of as
informational learning, likeyou'll learn more stuff, you'll
learn to do a new task.
It's super important.
(11:33):
We're pretty good at it.
By the time you get to be thesort of leader you and I work
with in organizations, you'resuper good at that.
The thing that they callvertical development is on a
different axis.
Right, it's this question ofnot am I learning new stuff, but
am I learning to see the worldin a new way?
The way I see the world nowbecomes visible to me in some
(11:56):
way.
You can't actually learn to seethe world a new way until you
notice that you've been seeingthe world this way.
It's not up for grabs, and so Ithink the first thing is for us
to agree that something thatwe're going to call
developmental offers people achance to look at and
potentially update or alter theway they've been seeing the
(12:20):
world.
This means the assumptionsthey're making, the implicit
rules they live by, the waytheir identity is hooked onto
this external thing or thatinternal thing, depending on
their particular form of mind.
So somehow we have to help makesomething visible for them and
(12:43):
offer them a set of choices.
So that's like just tablestakes If you're going to be
doing a thing called development, leadership, development.
Scott Allen (12:55):
I love the fact that you just kind of situated
us in.
Look, if we're going to betalking about development, we
have horizontal, we havevertical, we're talking about
vertical development, or atleast baking that into the
learning experience, correct?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (13:09):
That's right, and it doesn't mean that
the skills and knowledge aren'tincredibly important.
It's just they're easier toaccess and you don't need to
think so much about forms ofmind If the thing that you're
helping somebody learn to do iskind of frame a really good town
hall.
Scott Allen (13:28):
Let's say I'm just naively doing a session on
influence tactics with a groupof human beings Great, you could
go to some Robert Cialdini andhis work on influence, but we
could talk about influence.
The person who you firstdescribed as you were talking
about the model might take thatinformation in as oh, here's how
(13:48):
I get what I want, here's how Ican manipulate, here's how I
can use this against them.
Versus the person who's in avery different form of mind, the
self-authored is taking in thatsame information, fundamentally
a different way.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (14:03):
And then we are shocked.
Scott Allen (14:05):
Yes, At the end.
That's not what I meant.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (14:09):
I didn't mean to unleash that right
Exactly, which is why I find theline which is nice in theory
between vertical and horizontaldevelopment much more blurry,
because, as you said, the thingthat you were just talking about
is looks kind of informationalstrategy.
(14:30):
Information looks like skills.
Actually, there's quite a lotof perspective taking and
feedback skills.
There's quite a lot of meaningmaking in, feedback taking and
giving.
So, anyway, I offer verticaland horizontal to get us into,
kind of, the big room that we'rein, but even once we're in that
big room, there's gray, asyou're pointing out.
(14:55):
I think the next thing to know,though, is that when you know
that people are going to betaking in information in all
these different ways, makingmeaning of it in all these
different ways, you have achoice, and a lot of the
programs I see are what I thinkof as psychologically narrow.
(15:18):
They have as a goal, very oftenin leadership development, an
implicit goal, sometimes even anexplicit goal that, in this
program, you are going to findyour own leadership voice, for
example, which sounds to me likewe're going to help you from
the socialized to theself-authored space.
Right Right now, you don't havea leadership voice.
(15:39):
You're kind of embedded in theworld out there.
I am going to hold your handand lead you to a place where
you're going to have your ownvoice and you're going to be
embedded in a world in here.
I have questions about whetherthis could be done in like a
three-day program, but anyway,you see a lot of that, and the
problem is that misses out sucha huge percentage of the group
(16:02):
that might be in front of you inthat moment.
There might be those who haven'tyet internalized the voice of
the organization, and teachingthem to bypass that is
problematic for all kinds ofreasons.
There might be those who haddone this step that you're
talking to a long time ago, andthen they cross their arms and
they're like leadershipdevelopment is stupid.
(16:23):
It crossed this bridge, I don'tneed to cross this bridge again
.
And so I think we have thisquestion about do we want to
create psychologically narrowleadership development
experiences or psychologicallyspacious leadership development
experiences?
I think both of these are finechoices, but if you're going to
create a narrow experience, youwant to come up with a net that
(16:47):
nets you the participants whoare inside the band you want,
and not outside that band,because that's what you're
designing for.
And if we're going to createsomething spacious, then we need
to understand that the contentwe offer and the way we offer it
is going to be consumed in manydifferent ways.
Yes, and just us understandingthat that's such a beautiful
(17:08):
insight as we then continue todesign yeah, I think the thing
adult developmental theory didfor me when I came across it now
, almost 30 years ago, was itshattered forever my hope that I
could design something so goodit would reach everybody in the
same way.
(17:29):
I hope people make this senseof the thing I'm doing.
That's okay, that's off thetable.
But actually that shattering isincredibly liberating because
it means okay, I get to thinkabout in these very flexible
ways about exactly what is it,what is the next step?
(17:54):
How do I design a next stepprogram instead of an A to B
program where everybody startsat A and everybody ends at B?
How do I design a program whereeverybody starts at today and
ends at something bigger thantoday, plus one right?
And I totally believe thatdesign is possible.
Scott Allen (18:20):
Yes, Talk about that.
What are some things?
How do you think about that?
I imagine you are consistentlyexperimenting because there's no
one in the world you can callto say, hey, how do I design
this?
Can you give me the four steps?
You're that person, you know.
How do you think about that?
What are some things thatyou've learned in that work, in
(18:42):
that experimentation?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (18:44):
Yeah, so I'm lucky enough so that I can
call people when I'm stuck andsay let's talk it through, you
know?
Scott Allen (18:53):
Yeah.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (18:55):
Because there are a lot of people who've
been stuck there before.
So I think one of the one ofthe things I talk about in the
book is you have to think abouthow people are entering and what
is the thing you're selling tothem.
Because whenever anybody walksinto a room on a program, you're
kind of selling them somethingor, as I like to think about it,
you're kind of leasing themsomething.
(19:16):
They don't have to buy it, butthey're going to rent it for the
day, take it around theneighborhood, kick the tires,
pop the hood on this thing, andthey need to care enough about
it to bother.
The more critical they are ofwhat we're on about, probably
the more they're bothering,which is super helpful, and so I
(19:38):
need to understand what thepromise of the material is for
them, how to offer that promise,like, for some people, an
influencing skills workshop isabout selling more stuff or
getting your way more often.
Scott Allen (19:53):
Yes.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (19:54):
For some people, it's about doing your
job better so that you acquire abetter reputation and the kudos
and appreciation of thosearound you.
For some people, it's aboutbeing able to influence people
in the direction of your valuesand so you can see, that's a
(20:14):
kind of self-sovereign,socialized, self-authored
framing, and you can say it in20 seconds at the beginning of a
day and make space for all ofthose interpretations and say
whatever you came for.
I hope to get you a littlefurther down that path.
Scott Allen (20:33):
Yes, and that's a really, really interesting way
of just framing the day up.
Whether you're here to learnhow to sell more widgets or
co-create with others moreeffectively, there's going to be
something for me here.
I love that.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (20:47):
That's right, because all those minds
are in the room.
Scott Allen (20:49):
They're all in the room.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (20:50):
All those minds are in the room and
very often I think some peoplehave a reaction against
developmental theory because itfeels hierarchical.
I think humans are constantlyhierarchical and developmental
theory gives some form to that.
I think it helps us bethoughtfully non-hierarchical.
It helps us be thoughtfullynon-hierarchical.
(21:11):
I don't know very manyleadership development folks who
would go in thinking the heightof my day is helping people
sell more widgets.
That's not why we get out ofbed in the morning, but it
behooves us to remember that forsome of our clients that is why
they get out of bed in themorning 100%.
And if we can offer themsomething that makes their lives
better, we've done something.
Scott Allen (21:35):
And to your point, in the book we talk about
meeting people where they are.
I mean, I think at times it cancome off as a little judgmental
that there are people where,that's why they're getting out
of bed and that's the motivationand that's their lived reality.
And are we meeting them wherethey are and then providing a
learning experience thatpotentially opens their eyes to
different ways of thinking, tonuances in some of that way of
(21:58):
thinking, other forms?
Because, again, I can imagineyou create an experience where
we have a group of six people ata table, those minds are going
to be in different places and ifall of a sudden I'm sitting at
a table and my only motivationis selling more widgets but I'm
hearing some others at the tablediscuss this topic and
(22:19):
different ways, that's alearning opportunity for me.
That's a perspective out therethat isn't just kind of a
transactional mindset.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (22:27):
Yeah, and this is why one of our core
rules is design for connection,yeah, so how do we design so
that people feel more connectedto, more seen by their
colleagues in the room and alsoget a chance to see those
colleagues and take on theirperspectives?
(22:49):
Because that's superdevelopmental Actually.
It's great for the organization, it's great for knocking down
silos, makes teams moreeffective, obviously, but it's
also a fundamentallydevelopmental activity.
If I feel like my perspectiveis well taken by you, I open to
the possibility that this is athing I have a perspective.
(23:12):
You are taking it, I see thatand I see what that feels like.
And then, if I open to takingyour perspective, as you said,
our differences become smallthings for us to push against
and learn from in ourselves.
Scott Allen (23:29):
And that individual who may be a little further
down the road can make a commentand that might resonate, that
might nudge, and again for thatindividual who is only there to
learn how to sell more widgets,I think that's a reality and so
I think at times to your point,we can poo-poo that, but that's
(23:52):
a reality and that exists inorganizational life.
It's a thing right Now.
It becomes problematic if youput that in a person in a
position of authority, ofauthority, pretty interesting
adventures ensue sometimes.
But no, I love that.
How about one more just kind ofdesign, not rule, but design
(24:12):
consideration, as you'rethinking about doing this work?
I mean, I find it fascinating.
I really really.
Do Anything else come to mind?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (24:21):
Another thing I think we don't think
that much about as we go aboutour day as leadership
development folks is what is ourparticipants relationship to
authority and to something likethe truth?
How do we get authorized tomean something for them?
(24:42):
I often ask people whointroduce me to introduce me in
a way that credentializes mewith the group.
For some groups that's myeducation.
For some groups it's the clientlist I serve.
For some groups it's somethingabout me personally that gives
me some kind of my theorganization I started and what
that thing is like now and whatI've done as a leader.
(25:04):
But you can hear that each ofthese relationships to authority
is going to matter differentlyto different forms of mind.
Scott Allen (25:13):
Yes.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (25:14):
And similarly the concept of truth,
like what is the truth?
Earlier in our developmentaljourney we have a very black and
white relationship to the truth.
There is truth, there'sfalsehood.
There's nothing in betweenthose things.
Later on we develop shades ofgray, we understand there are
(25:34):
whole areas that you can't knowwhat's true, what's not true,
and later the whole concept oftruth begins to be like
interestingly problematic truthbegins to be like interestingly
problematic.
We have to be able to dance withevery one of those perspectives
and not find ourselves trappedby our meaning space so that we
only live inside one of thoseperspectives, because what tends
(25:55):
to happen is without reflectingon it the leadership
development expert comes in, isin one of those forms of mind
him or herself they design forthat and then when somebody
pushes against that, they knowthat person's wrong headed or an
idiot in some way, and so thenthey need to push against that
pushing against and you get thislike very unproductive conflict
(26:19):
in the room as opposed toknowing I'm designing from my
form of mind, making space forother relationships people might
be having to these things andthen dancing with these
different perspectives in a waythat makes clear that we have
these different perspectives andthat there are multiple
(26:39):
possibilities there and that inthe room you could surface these
many possibilities, and thatitself would be developmental
and interesting.
Scott Allen (26:47):
Oh, 100%.
That's one of those momentswhere I'll move into
facilitation mode sometimes,because I may have a participant
ask a question and, as you know, those questions can feel left
field.
They can feel on target.
They can feel like, oh geez,that's not what I'd meant at all
.
Field, they can feel on target.
They can feel like, oh geez,that's not what I'd meant at all
.
This person internalized thisway oh, wow, Okay, we're off.
(27:11):
So I love that part becauseit's a little bit of improv.
But I often then go to the room, I just move into facilitation
mode and I say, okay, how doother people internalize that
question?
How are you all thinking?
And it's beautiful how thosedifferent perspectives will pop
up and kind of take care of thatspace for you much of the time.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (27:27):
And you're using the diversity of
perspectives in the room, anddiversity is such an important
piece in helping us expand ourown view, and so just making it
manifest, making it an object ofeverybody's reflection in the
room is, like, incrediblydevelopmental, and it again is
(27:50):
the thing that you're pointingto in that move that you're
making is, I think, thefundamental developmental
impulse in a reallydevelopmental leadership,
development person or leader ortherapist or teacher or whatever
profession you might be in.
But this fundamental idea Idon't have the right answer in
(28:15):
my pocket.
Collectively.
There's a whole lot of wisdomhere that we could make sense of
together and that will advanceeach of us a little bit farther
than we were before.
Scott Allen (28:29):
Yeah, it's so interesting too.
But even sometimes in thoseanswers from people in the room,
you get the individual who says, well, you just need to do X,
and their form of mind is kindof in a space.
And then you get the individualwho says the company always
says that we should be doingthis right, okay.
And then you have the person inthe room who says you know what
(28:50):
it depends.
So it just highlights theimportance of us as designers
and us as facilitators beingsuper self-aware and having done
the work and continuing to dothe work ourselves so that we
can be of best service in themoment.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (29:06):
And again there's this paradox that
developmental theory looks kindof judgmental.
But without developmentaltheory, there's surely one of
those participant voices thatyou would be saying you're right
, you're wrong.
I have to figure out how to fixthat one.
But this one's a real problem.
This idea of, oh, this is aproblem, I need to deal with it,
(29:28):
I need to fix it in some way,Is, I think, what's going to be
just in us if we're not careful.
And developmental theory, Ithink, softens that and says oh,
that is a human being with afully intact meaning system, and
they're speaking from thatfully intact meaning system.
(29:50):
My job is to admire that andhold space for maybe that
meaning system to grow a littlebit.
That's my job.
My job is not to fix it,correct it, alter it.
My job is not to fix it,correct it, alter it, poke at it
, prod at it, break it open.
All these other things we mightthink of as our job then kind
(30:11):
of fade away when we take a realdevelopmental view.
Scott Allen (30:15):
Yeah, incredible.
And as we begin to wind downour time, is there anything else
that you want to say about thesecond edition that we haven't
gotten to that listeners mightbe interested in?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (30:45):
Anything else, come to design whatever
you wanted to design.
That's kind of what I was onabout when I wrote the first
edition and over the years, I'vediscovered that there weren't
enough instruction manuals inthe atelier that I had created.
This new edition is reallymeant to be useful for leaders,
(31:10):
for people with a vague interestin development, for people with
a passionate interest indevelopment.
It really is meant to bepsychologically spacious.
Psychologically spacious,filled with entry points
connecting as possible.
That's what I was on about, andI hope that those of you who
(31:31):
are reading it are finding theirway through it as a useful
companion to make the worldyou're trying to make better.
Scott Allen (31:42):
Again so appreciate your work, because there isn't
enough out there that I know of,at least, that is really trying
to help people think aboutoperationalizing some of this
work and creating learningexperiences with this in mind,
and so I have always just very,very much appreciated it and
(32:03):
can't thank you enough for thework that you do.
I always close out ourconversations by just asking
what have you been listening tostreaming reading what's caught
your attention in recent times?
It may have to do with adultdevelopment, it may have nothing
to do with adult development,but what might listeners be
interested in?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (32:20):
but what might listeners be interested
in.
I have to say, lately, giventhe world that we live in right
now, I have been reading a lotof fiction, and particularly a
lot of fiction that takes placein.
I'm more drawn to fantasy thanI have been before, in science
(32:41):
fiction than I have been before.
And here, you know, I live inthis odd communal space and we
we've developed kind of a bookclub for escapists who who want
to spend some of our readingtime escaping the current world
and give our minds a break fromit all.
So that has been what I'm onabout.
(33:03):
The next thing I'm going toread which I've read excerpts of
on the way out but is just out,is the new book from Adam
Kahane.
Adam always has reallyinteresting things to say about
the world and I'm superinterested in the way he's
thinking about how do weactually create social change in
(33:25):
this moment.
So that's just out.
Maybe this week, maybe nextweek.
Scott Allen (33:31):
Okay.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (33:31):
So I'm keen for that thing to be
released in in my hands.
Scott Allen (33:36):
Awesome, jennifer, as always.
Thank you so much for stoppingby today.
Again, appreciate you,appreciate your work and keep it
up your gift of sharing howyou're thinking about the world
with the world.
It's a wonderful thing, and soI appreciate you.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (33:52):
Thanks so much for getting up so early
this morning, Scott, to hang outwith me.
Scott Allen (33:56):
Of course, anytime.
If you can't tell, I am a hugefan of Jennifer's work.
She's doing incredible thingsout there in the world.
Helping us think about thistopic of horizontal and vertical
development in new anddifferent ways Definitely gave
me plenty to think about andreflect upon.
I hope you as well.
(34:17):
So, jennifer, thank you so muchfor the good work that you do.
For me, the practical wisdom iskeep exploring, stay curious,
take care everybody, be well,bye-bye.
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders Special episode.
Today we have Dr JenniferGarvey-Berger.
She's the author of fouracclaimed books on leadership
and she's co-founder and CEO ofCultivating Leadership, a
consultancy that servesexecutives and teams in the
private, nonprofit andgovernment sectors around the
world.
Her clients include Google,microsoft, novartis, wikipedia
(00:23):
and Oxfam International.
She is Senior ScientificAdvisor to the Interdevelopment
Goals, an international personalgrowth initiative based in
Sweden.
Jennifer, thank you so much forstopping by again and really,
really looking forward to thisconversation.
The second edition of Changingon the Job is out, and you know
(00:44):
what I've been excited for this.
I was excited in the lead upbecause you've done such a
beautiful job of kind ofengaging the community and
saying, hey, should I writeabout this, or should I go in
this direction, or what shouldwe?
So it was just a wonderful,wonderful lead up to the release
of the book.
I know it's been out for awhile now, but today we're going
to talk about forms of mind,complexity, fitness For those of
(01:06):
you geeks out there who areinto adult development.
Bill Torbert and Bob Keeganendorsed the book, so that's a
double win.
And, jennifer, thank you.
I'm going to stop talking andjust let you say a quick hello
from France.
What's going on?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (01:20):
Hey, scott, it's great to see you
again.
There were parts of the bookthat were really fun to be
working on and there were otherparts of the book that were
really unpleasant to be workingon, but one of the most fun
parts of it was when I wouldcome to my wits end and I would
turn to my LinkedIn communityand say, literally no idea what
to do now.
(01:40):
Can you people help me?
And it really did feel like Ihad a lot of friends helping.
Yeah, a lot of friends helpingwith this one, friends who I
don't even I don't even knowthem.
Yeah, and in the background,everybody at Cultivating
Leadership had access to themanuscript.
There was a Google doc andeverybody was dropping comments
(02:01):
into the manuscript the originalchanging on the job from
whatever 15 years ago, and thenthe manuscript that was
unfolding for the new one.
So I had a lot of support onthis one.
Scott Allen (02:16):
Oh, that's great Crowdsourcing at its best, okay,
so let's bring listeners in.
A little bit For listeners.
This is Jennifer's second timeon the podcast, so if you're
just dropping in push pause, golisten to that episode.
It's an incredible conversation.
There's a whole series thatstarted with Jonathan Reams on
adult development and have hadBill Torbert on the podcast, and
(02:38):
so there's all kinds ofopportunity to kind of get a
little bit of a primer on adultdevelopment.
But, jennifer, I'm going togive you a challenge Can you do
one or two minutes on forms ofmind?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (02:51):
No worries.
I remember when I asked BobKeegan how fast adult
development could be taught andhe said, yeah, I guess you could
do it in like a two week longform course.
Guess you could do it in like atwo week long form course, but
I don't like to do it in lessthan a semester.
And I was like I was thinkinglike five, 10, 90 minutes, like
(03:12):
I was in the minute space and hewas in the week space, which I
understand.
Okay, minute space.
So the idea here is that eachof us has kind of a lens through
which we see the world andwe're unaware of it.
It's invisible to us, it's justhow we see.
It shapes everything and it'svery easy to recognize in
(03:35):
children because their lens isso different from ours.
But it turns out there arethese organizing principles that
shape the lenses adults lookthrough as well.
And I tend to kind of focus onfour of those adult spaces,
although two of them are muchmore common for adults.
(03:55):
The first one I focus on I callthe self-sovereign mind, because
it's the time when we are kindof the kings or queens of our
own dominion.
But that dominion is just one,one person.
We don't take the perspectivesof others.
We are not yet able tointernalize the perspective of
(04:16):
somebody else.
We're not able yet to seeabstraction, complexity.
All that stuff strikes us asproblematic, probably untruthful
or in some way manipulative,because people are describing a
world we have no access to.
So this is the self-sovereignmind long recognized in children
(04:37):
and only more recentlyrecognized as a full-fledged
adult way of seeing the world.
I think it's probably morecommon now than it used to be,
because people are under so muchpressure, and with pressure we
can either metabolize pressureinto development or we
metabolize pressure intofallback, and the easiest way to
(05:01):
metabolize pressure is intofallback.
So I think we're seeing more ofthis self-sovereign form of
mind than we have seen before.
Most adults move past that.
Most adults reach into theplace where they not only take
in other people's perspectivesbut kind of swallow them whole
(05:21):
and live inside the perspectivesof others.
There are clues about how I'mdoing in the world, what's good
and bad all come from somethingoutside them.
We call that the socializedmind, because it allows us to
live in societies, because forthe first time we're able to
subordinate our own interests onbehalf of a collective, because
the collective is us in manyways.
Scott Allen (05:42):
Yeah, so if I grow up in Tennessee in a Baptist
community, that's conservative,that's the waters I'm swimming
in, so to speak, and I take thatin correct.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (05:51):
You take that in and for most of human
history that was probably thebest, most expansive thing you
needed to do, because yourcommunity in Tennessee was going
to hold you for the rest ofyour life.
You're going to live there,you're going to work there.
You're going to live there.
You're going to work there,you're going to die there.
(06:12):
That was where you were goingto be.
Now that set of perspectives isprobably too small for many
people trying to function inthis crazy, mixed up,
unimaginable world that we livein.
So many adults get kind of tiredor overwhelmed by trying to
take in the perspectives ofothers and find their way that
way and they pick up the pen andbegin to write their own story.
They say, wait, I'm not goingto look out there, I'm going to
(06:35):
look in here, and in that waythey are able to kind of decide
what their values are, how theywant to see the world, how they
want to be in themselves.
And then for very few adults,but maybe more than has been
true before, you get people whostop thinking oh, my writing my
(07:00):
own story isn't actually thetruth of the matter.
The truth is I both write andam written by.
Both of these things aresimultaneously true.
We call that theself-transforming mind, because
that's the mind that isconstantly kind of flowing with
complexity, change, uncertainty,uncertainty, and doing that
(07:22):
dance in order to growthemselves as they find
innovative solutions to theirchallenges.
That was totally not threeminutes.
Scott Allen (07:34):
But it was awesome, okay, wonderful.
So we've got the forms of mind.
Now let's talk a little bitabout complexity, fitness, and
then we're going to move intothe conversation for the day
about how do we, with a group ofhuman beings, design
programming to help facilitate.
(07:55):
So let's talk a little bitabout complexity, fitness, and
then I think we'll have thefoundation set.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (08:00):
Awesome.
So complexity fitness, whichwas actually a term brought to
me by my colleagues and friendsCarolyn Coughlin and Patrice
Laslett, with my work atCultivating Leadership.
This is the idea that each ofthese forms of mind are like
different fitness levels forfacing the complexity of the
(08:22):
world, and you can imagine thisearlier one that I described,
this self-sovereign form of mind, doesn't handle complexity very
well.
Not a lot of fitness forcomplexity, a lot of fitness for
lots of other great things, butfor complexity not so much.
And as we grow through thesedifferent forms of mind that
(08:42):
I've just described, it's almostas if we reach different levels
of capability and fitness forhandling a world that is
increasingly complex.
Scott Allen (08:53):
So you and I are both working with organizations
and you're in an organizationand we're doing some type of
programming and it could be forthose who are doing coaching.
I know in the book there's alot of kind of work on look if
we're coaching.
This is ways to be thinkingabout this and what I love about
your work, and have alwaysloved about your work, is that
(09:15):
it is really nicely grounded inlook.
We are working withorganizations and we are
embedded in that context.
So how do we take this thinking, which is beautiful, wonderful,
awesome thinking, and actuallyoperationalize it, actually
design programming that?
And for listeners, you canimagine you're sitting in a room
(09:35):
and there's a hundred people.
Well, think of the differentforms of mind.
If we could visualize thatpeople's minds are in a lot of
different places.
How they're internalizingliterally what you just said
it's happening are in a lot ofdifferent places.
How they're internalizingliterally what you just said
it's happening in different ways, correct, jennifer?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (09:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
Scott Allen (09:51):
And so how do you design in a way where you can
communicate with those fourgeneral frames of mind or forms
of mind?
How do you design in a waythat's communicating and helping
each of them progress ordevelop?
Tim O'Brien was on the podcast.
I was telling you and it wasgreat because he wrote this
(10:13):
paper.
It was called Looking forDevelopment and Leadership
Development so that it'sdevelopmental.
It's a developmental experience.
So bring listeners into a fewways.
You're thinking about thatbecause I just love, love, love
that.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (10:27):
Yeah, I have been thinking about this
question.
You know, I wrote my doctoraldissertation on this question,
whatever 20, several years agoit was terrifying.
You know, I still think about itall the time.
We just designed a totally newprogram, meant to be
developmental for 200 leaders ata time, and we really thought
(10:48):
about this question of how doyou get it developmental for 200
leaders at a time when thoseleaders are likely across a
spectrum and depending on whatyou had for breakfast one
morning and what you have forbreakfast the next morning, you
might be in a totally differentplace, you yourself.
So the first thing I think wehave to get clear on is what do
(11:09):
we mean by developmental?
Scott Allen (11:11):
Yes.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (11:12):
Right, what is it that we're on about?
And so those folks who thinkabout the difference between
what is often called horizontaldevelopment and vertical
development right, horizontal iskind of I think of as
informational learning, likeyou'll learn more stuff, you'll
learn to do a new task.
It's super important.
(11:33):
We're pretty good at it.
By the time you get to be thesort of leader you and I work
with in organizations, you'resuper good at that.
The thing that they callvertical development is on a
different axis.
Right, it's this question ofnot am I learning new stuff, but
am I learning to see the worldin a new way?
The way I see the world nowbecomes visible to me in some
(11:56):
way.
You can't actually learn to seethe world a new way until you
notice that you've been seeingthe world this way.
It's not up for grabs, and so Ithink the first thing is for us
to agree that something thatwe're going to call
developmental offers people achance to look at and
potentially update or alter theway they've been seeing the
(12:20):
world.
This means the assumptionsthey're making, the implicit
rules they live by, the waytheir identity is hooked onto
this external thing or thatinternal thing, depending on
their particular form of mind.
So somehow we have to help makesomething visible for them and
(12:43):
offer them a set of choices.
So that's like just tablestakes If you're going to be
doing a thing called development, leadership, development.
Scott Allen (12:55):
I love the fact that you just kind of situated
us in.
Look, if we're going to betalking about development, we
have horizontal, we havevertical, we're talking about
vertical development, or atleast baking that into the
learning experience, correct?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (13:09):
That's right, and it doesn't mean that
the skills and knowledge aren'tincredibly important.
It's just they're easier toaccess and you don't need to
think so much about forms ofmind If the thing that you're
helping somebody learn to do iskind of frame a really good town
hall.
Scott Allen (13:28):
Let's say I'm just naively doing a session on
influence tactics with a groupof human beings Great, you could
go to some Robert Cialdini andhis work on influence, but we
could talk about influence.
The person who you firstdescribed as you were talking
about the model might take thatinformation in as oh, here's how
(13:48):
I get what I want, here's how Ican manipulate, here's how I
can use this against them.
Versus the person who's in avery different form of mind, the
self-authored is taking in thatsame information, fundamentally
a different way.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (14:03):
And then we are shocked.
Scott Allen (14:05):
Yes, At the end.
That's not what I meant.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (14:09):
I didn't mean to unleash that right
Exactly, which is why I find theline which is nice in theory
between vertical and horizontaldevelopment much more blurry,
because, as you said, the thingthat you were just talking about
is looks kind of informationalstrategy.
(14:30):
Information looks like skills.
Actually, there's quite a lotof perspective taking and
feedback skills.
There's quite a lot of meaningmaking in, feedback taking and
giving.
So, anyway, I offer verticaland horizontal to get us into,
kind of, the big room that we'rein, but even once we're in that
big room, there's gray, asyou're pointing out.
(14:55):
I think the next thing to know,though, is that when you know
that people are going to betaking in information in all
these different ways, makingmeaning of it in all these
different ways, you have achoice, and a lot of the
programs I see are what I thinkof as psychologically narrow.
(15:18):
They have as a goal, very oftenin leadership development, an
implicit goal, sometimes even anexplicit goal that, in this
program, you are going to findyour own leadership voice, for
example, which sounds to me likewe're going to help you from
the socialized to theself-authored space.
Right Right now, you don't havea leadership voice.
(15:39):
You're kind of embedded in theworld out there.
I am going to hold your handand lead you to a place where
you're going to have your ownvoice and you're going to be
embedded in a world in here.
I have questions about whetherthis could be done in like a
three-day program, but anyway,you see a lot of that, and the
problem is that misses out sucha huge percentage of the group
(16:02):
that might be in front of you inthat moment.
There might be those who haven'tyet internalized the voice of
the organization, and teachingthem to bypass that is
problematic for all kinds ofreasons.
There might be those who haddone this step that you're
talking to a long time ago, andthen they cross their arms and
they're like leadershipdevelopment is stupid.
(16:23):
It crossed this bridge, I don'tneed to cross this bridge again
.
And so I think we have thisquestion about do we want to
create psychologically narrowleadership development
experiences or psychologicallyspacious leadership development
experiences?
I think both of these are finechoices, but if you're going to
create a narrow experience, youwant to come up with a net that
(16:47):
nets you the participants whoare inside the band you want,
and not outside that band,because that's what you're
designing for.
And if we're going to createsomething spacious, then we need
to understand that the contentwe offer and the way we offer it
is going to be consumed in manydifferent ways.
Yes, and just us understandingthat that's such a beautiful
(17:08):
insight as we then continue todesign yeah, I think the thing
adult developmental theory didfor me when I came across it now
, almost 30 years ago, was itshattered forever my hope that I
could design something so goodit would reach everybody in the
same way.
(17:29):
I hope people make this senseof the thing I'm doing.
That's okay, that's off thetable.
But actually that shattering isincredibly liberating because
it means okay, I get to thinkabout in these very flexible
ways about exactly what is it,what is the next step?
(17:54):
How do I design a next stepprogram instead of an A to B
program where everybody startsat A and everybody ends at B?
How do I design a program whereeverybody starts at today and
ends at something bigger thantoday, plus one right?
And I totally believe thatdesign is possible.
Scott Allen (18:20):
Yes, Talk about that.
What are some things?
How do you think about that?
I imagine you are consistentlyexperimenting because there's no
one in the world you can callto say, hey, how do I design
this?
Can you give me the four steps?
You're that person, you know.
How do you think about that?
What are some things thatyou've learned in that work, in
(18:42):
that experimentation?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (18:44):
Yeah, so I'm lucky enough so that I can
call people when I'm stuck andsay let's talk it through, you
know?
Scott Allen (18:53):
Yeah.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (18:55):
Because there are a lot of people who've
been stuck there before.
So I think one of the one ofthe things I talk about in the
book is you have to think abouthow people are entering and what
is the thing you're selling tothem.
Because whenever anybody walksinto a room on a program, you're
kind of selling them somethingor, as I like to think about it,
you're kind of leasing themsomething.
(19:16):
They don't have to buy it, butthey're going to rent it for the
day, take it around theneighborhood, kick the tires,
pop the hood on this thing, andthey need to care enough about
it to bother.
The more critical they are ofwhat we're on about, probably
the more they're bothering,which is super helpful, and so I
(19:38):
need to understand what thepromise of the material is for
them, how to offer that promise,like, for some people, an
influencing skills workshop isabout selling more stuff or
getting your way more often.
Scott Allen (19:53):
Yes.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (19:54):
For some people, it's about doing your
job better so that you acquire abetter reputation and the kudos
and appreciation of thosearound you.
For some people, it's aboutbeing able to influence people
in the direction of your valuesand so you can see, that's a
(20:14):
kind of self-sovereign,socialized, self-authored
framing, and you can say it in20 seconds at the beginning of a
day and make space for all ofthose interpretations and say
whatever you came for.
I hope to get you a littlefurther down that path.
Scott Allen (20:33):
Yes, and that's a really, really interesting way
of just framing the day up.
Whether you're here to learnhow to sell more widgets or
co-create with others moreeffectively, there's going to be
something for me here.
I love that.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (20:47):
That's right, because all those minds
are in the room.
Scott Allen (20:49):
They're all in the room.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (20:50):
All those minds are in the room and
very often I think some peoplehave a reaction against
developmental theory because itfeels hierarchical.
I think humans are constantlyhierarchical and developmental
theory gives some form to that.
I think it helps us bethoughtfully non-hierarchical.
It helps us be thoughtfullynon-hierarchical.
(21:11):
I don't know very manyleadership development folks who
would go in thinking the heightof my day is helping people
sell more widgets.
That's not why we get out ofbed in the morning, but it
behooves us to remember that forsome of our clients that is why
they get out of bed in themorning 100%.
And if we can offer themsomething that makes their lives
better, we've done something.
Scott Allen (21:35):
And to your point, in the book we talk about
meeting people where they are.
I mean, I think at times it cancome off as a little judgmental
that there are people where,that's why they're getting out
of bed and that's the motivationand that's their lived reality.
And are we meeting them wherethey are and then providing a
learning experience thatpotentially opens their eyes to
different ways of thinking, tonuances in some of that way of
(21:58):
thinking, other forms?
Because, again, I can imagineyou create an experience where
we have a group of six people ata table, those minds are going
to be in different places and ifall of a sudden I'm sitting at
a table and my only motivationis selling more widgets but I'm
hearing some others at the tablediscuss this topic and
(22:19):
different ways, that's alearning opportunity for me.
That's a perspective out therethat isn't just kind of a
transactional mindset.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (22:27):
Yeah, and this is why one of our core
rules is design for connection,yeah, so how do we design so
that people feel more connectedto, more seen by their
colleagues in the room and alsoget a chance to see those
colleagues and take on theirperspectives?
(22:49):
Because that's superdevelopmental Actually.
It's great for the organization, it's great for knocking down
silos, makes teams moreeffective, obviously, but it's
also a fundamentallydevelopmental activity.
If I feel like my perspectiveis well taken by you, I open to
the possibility that this is athing I have a perspective.
(23:12):
You are taking it, I see thatand I see what that feels like.
And then, if I open to takingyour perspective, as you said,
our differences become smallthings for us to push against
and learn from in ourselves.
Scott Allen (23:29):
And that individual who may be a little further
down the road can make a commentand that might resonate, that
might nudge, and again for thatindividual who is only there to
learn how to sell more widgets,I think that's a reality and so
I think at times to your point,we can poo-poo that, but that's
(23:52):
a reality and that exists inorganizational life.
It's a thing right Now.
It becomes problematic if youput that in a person in a
position of authority, ofauthority, pretty interesting
adventures ensue sometimes.
But no, I love that.
How about one more just kind ofdesign, not rule, but design
(24:12):
consideration, as you'rethinking about doing this work?
I mean, I find it fascinating.
I really really.
Do Anything else come to mind?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (24:21):
Another thing I think we don't think
that much about as we go aboutour day as leadership
development folks is what is ourparticipants relationship to
authority and to something likethe truth?
How do we get authorized tomean something for them?
(24:42):
I often ask people whointroduce me to introduce me in
a way that credentializes mewith the group.
For some groups that's myeducation.
For some groups it's the clientlist I serve.
For some groups it's somethingabout me personally that gives
me some kind of my theorganization I started and what
that thing is like now and whatI've done as a leader.
(25:04):
But you can hear that each ofthese relationships to authority
is going to matter differentlyto different forms of mind.
Scott Allen (25:13):
Yes.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (25:14):
And similarly the concept of truth,
like what is the truth?
Earlier in our developmentaljourney we have a very black and
white relationship to the truth.
There is truth, there'sfalsehood.
There's nothing in betweenthose things.
Later on we develop shades ofgray, we understand there are
(25:34):
whole areas that you can't knowwhat's true, what's not true,
and later the whole concept oftruth begins to be like
interestingly problematic truthbegins to be like interestingly
problematic.
We have to be able to dance withevery one of those perspectives
and not find ourselves trappedby our meaning space so that we
only live inside one of thoseperspectives, because what tends
(25:55):
to happen is without reflectingon it the leadership
development expert comes in, isin one of those forms of mind
him or herself they design forthat and then when somebody
pushes against that, they knowthat person's wrong headed or an
idiot in some way, and so thenthey need to push against that
pushing against and you get thislike very unproductive conflict
(26:19):
in the room as opposed toknowing I'm designing from my
form of mind, making space forother relationships people might
be having to these things andthen dancing with these
different perspectives in a waythat makes clear that we have
these different perspectives andthat there are multiple
(26:39):
possibilities there and that inthe room you could surface these
many possibilities, and thatitself would be developmental
and interesting.
Scott Allen (26:47):
Oh, 100%.
That's one of those momentswhere I'll move into
facilitation mode sometimes,because I may have a participant
ask a question and, as you know, those questions can feel left
field.
They can feel on target.
They can feel like, oh geez,that's not what I'd meant at all
.
Field, they can feel on target.
They can feel like, oh geez,that's not what I'd meant at all
.
This person internalized thisway oh, wow, Okay, we're off.
(27:11):
So I love that part becauseit's a little bit of improv.
But I often then go to the room, I just move into facilitation
mode and I say, okay, how doother people internalize that
question?
How are you all thinking?
And it's beautiful how thosedifferent perspectives will pop
up and kind of take care of thatspace for you much of the time.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (27:27):
And you're using the diversity of
perspectives in the room, anddiversity is such an important
piece in helping us expand ourown view, and so just making it
manifest, making it an object ofeverybody's reflection in the
room is, like, incrediblydevelopmental, and it again is
(27:50):
the thing that you're pointingto in that move that you're
making is, I think, thefundamental developmental
impulse in a reallydevelopmental leadership,
development person or leader ortherapist or teacher or whatever
profession you might be in.
But this fundamental idea Idon't have the right answer in
(28:15):
my pocket.
Collectively.
There's a whole lot of wisdomhere that we could make sense of
together and that will advanceeach of us a little bit farther
than we were before.
Scott Allen (28:29):
Yeah, it's so interesting too.
But even sometimes in thoseanswers from people in the room,
you get the individual who says, well, you just need to do X,
and their form of mind is kindof in a space.
And then you get the individualwho says the company always
says that we should be doingthis right, okay.
And then you have the person inthe room who says you know what
(28:50):
it depends.
So it just highlights theimportance of us as designers
and us as facilitators beingsuper self-aware and having done
the work and continuing to dothe work ourselves so that we
can be of best service in themoment.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (29:06):
And again there's this paradox that
developmental theory looks kindof judgmental.
But without developmentaltheory, there's surely one of
those participant voices thatyou would be saying you're right
, you're wrong.
I have to figure out how to fixthat one.
But this one's a real problem.
This idea of, oh, this is aproblem, I need to deal with it,
(29:28):
I need to fix it in some way,Is, I think, what's going to be
just in us if we're not careful.
And developmental theory, Ithink, softens that and says oh,
that is a human being with afully intact meaning system, and
they're speaking from thatfully intact meaning system.
(29:50):
My job is to admire that andhold space for maybe that
meaning system to grow a littlebit.
That's my job.
My job is not to fix it,correct it, alter it.
My job is not to fix it,correct it, alter it, poke at it
, prod at it, break it open.
All these other things we mightthink of as our job then kind
(30:11):
of fade away when we take a realdevelopmental view.
Scott Allen (30:15):
Yeah, incredible.
And as we begin to wind downour time, is there anything else
that you want to say about thesecond edition that we haven't
gotten to that listeners mightbe interested in?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (30:45):
Anything else, come to design whatever
you wanted to design.
That's kind of what I was onabout when I wrote the first
edition and over the years, I'vediscovered that there weren't
enough instruction manuals inthe atelier that I had created.
This new edition is reallymeant to be useful for leaders,
(31:10):
for people with a vague interestin development, for people with
a passionate interest indevelopment.
It really is meant to bepsychologically spacious.
Psychologically spacious,filled with entry points
connecting as possible.
That's what I was on about, andI hope that those of you who
(31:31):
are reading it are finding theirway through it as a useful
companion to make the worldyou're trying to make better.
Scott Allen (31:42):
Again so appreciate your work, because there isn't
enough out there that I know of,at least, that is really trying
to help people think aboutoperationalizing some of this
work and creating learningexperiences with this in mind,
and so I have always just very,very much appreciated it and
(32:03):
can't thank you enough for thework that you do.
I always close out ourconversations by just asking
what have you been listening tostreaming reading what's caught
your attention in recent times?
It may have to do with adultdevelopment, it may have nothing
to do with adult development,but what might listeners be
interested in?
Jennifer Garvey Berger (32:20):
but what might listeners be interested
in.
I have to say, lately, giventhe world that we live in right
now, I have been reading a lotof fiction, and particularly a
lot of fiction that takes placein.
I'm more drawn to fantasy thanI have been before, in science
(32:41):
fiction than I have been before.
And here, you know, I live inthis odd communal space and we
we've developed kind of a bookclub for escapists who who want
to spend some of our readingtime escaping the current world
and give our minds a break fromit all.
So that has been what I'm onabout.
(33:03):
The next thing I'm going toread which I've read excerpts of
on the way out but is just out,is the new book from Adam
Kahane.
Adam always has reallyinteresting things to say about
the world and I'm superinterested in the way he's
thinking about how do weactually create social change in
(33:25):
this moment.
So that's just out.
Maybe this week, maybe nextweek.
Scott Allen (33:31):
Okay.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (33:31):
So I'm keen for that thing to be
released in in my hands.
Scott Allen (33:36):
Awesome, jennifer, as always.
Thank you so much for stoppingby today.
Again, appreciate you,appreciate your work and keep it
up your gift of sharing howyou're thinking about the world
with the world.
It's a wonderful thing, and soI appreciate you.
Jennifer Garvey Berger (33:52):
Thanks so much for getting up so early
this morning, Scott, to hang outwith me.
Scott Allen (33:56):
Of course, anytime.
If you can't tell, I am a hugefan of Jennifer's work.
She's doing incredible thingsout there in the world.
Helping us think about thistopic of horizontal and vertical
development in new anddifferent ways Definitely gave
me plenty to think about andreflect upon.
I hope you as well.
(34:17):
So, jennifer, thank you so muchfor the good work that you do.
For me, the practical wisdom iskeep exploring, stay curious,
take care everybody, be well,bye-bye.
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