Developing Servant Leaders at Scale with Dr. Max Klau

Episode Transcript
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Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin.
Wherever you are in the world,today I have Dr Max Klau.
He is a consultant, author,speaker and integral master
coach based in Boston,massachusetts.
He received his doctorate fromthe Harvard Graduate School of
Education in 2005, with a focuson civic leadership development.
He served as the chief programofficer at the New Politics

(00:24):
Leadership Academy from 2016 to2024.
Npla is focused on bringingmore servant leaders into
politics, and Max designedleadership programs that have
graduated more than 2,500servant leaders to date.
Previously, he was the vicepresident of leadership
development at City Year, theeducation-focused AmeriCorps
program.

(00:44):
His second book, developingServant Leaders at Scale how to
Do it and why it Matters, willbe published in August 2025.
He lives outside of Boston withhis wife and two children.
Max, what else do we need toknow about you, sir?
What isn't in the bio that iscritical for listeners to know?

Max Klau (01:01):
Well, one is I'm very excited to be here, really
looking forward to thisconversation.
I want to say I'm launching acenter for courageous wholeness.
I'm that this comes out.
That will be very close tobeing able to really unveil it,
but I do want to launch that.
I've got a lot of clarityaround kind of my next
initiative.
That is really about how tobring the ideas in this book
into the world in a powerful way.
Talk a little bit about that.

(01:22):
I weave together several themes.
One is clearly servantleadership my entire career has
been working with people who areserving others and how to do
leadership development in thatcontext.
The other piece is shadow.
I do a lot of work around innerdevelopment, with a particular
focus on owning our shadow andintegrating our shadow and then
scaling up our impact.
And it's taken me a while toget really clear as what is the
essence that unites all of that?

(01:43):
And it's really about taking ajourney towards courageous
wholeness, trying to bring thatinto the world and really
believing that one of thereasons why our world is so
divided and polarized and at waris because we are divided from
ourselves and polarized and atwar with ourselves inside and
there's some work we need to doaround achieving wholeness
within if we're going to startshifting these dynamics around

(02:05):
us.

I love that.
And how are you definingwholeness real quick?
What do you think about that?
I mean, is it like an innerdevelopment goals type approach?
Is that?
Would that be dancing aroundwhere we are?

Max Klau (02:16):
It's not even dancing Absolutely, and I hope we'll
talk a little bit about theinner development goals which
have brought this whole focus on, which have brought this whole
focus on.
We need to complement ourdedication to creating impact in
the world around us with anequivalent focus on the inner
work that we need to do as wetry and do that, and a big part
of it is wholeness, which isabout really being able to be
with our fullness as humanbeings, which of course,

(02:38):
includes the parts of ourselvesthat do not fit with our
idealized vision of who we wouldlike to be or who we want to be
.
We all have these parts thatwe're not particularly proud of
and that we prefer not to reallygrapple with, and Carl Jung,
who wrote a bunch about this,says if we haven't really done
the work to look at this, thenit ends up controlling us from
beyond our awareness and we endup projecting it out into the

(02:59):
world and seeing all the partsthat we hate about ourselves and
some other, and that dynamic istruly an existential threat for
the species right now thisprojecting outside of ourselves
all the stuff we don't like, andI just feel like we've hit the
limits of how much change we canmake without really getting
serious about owning our shadowand doing the work to become

(03:19):
whole within ourselves so thatwe can call for wholeness in the
world around us.

Oh, wow.
And again, I love how you'rekind of bringing in this whole
conversation around at scale too, because, as you know, that's
critically important, that it'snot just one or two or three
people at a retreat or at aseries of retreats or on that
journey that we can get somecritical mass.
And so I love how you'rethinking about at scale.

(03:44):
Yes, if you put an individualwho and again I'm not defining
it correctly how you did, butlet's just for the sake of kind
of the conversation who isn'twhole or even interested in
doing that work, in a positionof authority, well, adventures
ensue.

Max Klau (04:00):
Absolutely, and, you know, if we understand how
interconnected the world is andhow fractal everything is, we
all have some degree of powerover the sections of the network
, of the core of relationshipsin which we are immersed.
And so, at whatever scale,we're doing it to the extent
that we have not taken thisinner journey, we are impacting
others with our own kind ofdisconnection from self and

(04:22):
blindness to the parts ofourselves that we don't really
like.

Yeah Well, let's talk a little bit about the book
.
I know you kind of start offwith the journey to the journey
which is love.
So tell us a little bit moreabout you and that journey,
because I think you bring anumber of different perspectives
and lenses to the conversation,whether that's the work of
Keegan, whether that's the innerdevelopment conversation,

(04:46):
whether that's the work ofKeegan, whether that's the inner
development goals, whetherthat's some of the integral
studies that you've done.
You're bringing a number oflenses and kind of the servant
leadership lens.
You're bringing those to theforefront, and so let's talk a
little bit about that.

Max Klau (04:59):
Yeah, so to share a little bit of my history.
I always say I'm a serviceperson.
I'm an alum of four differentlong-term service experiences
and led service trips to Indiaand Honduras and Ghana and
Ukraine and service was reallykind of home base for me, where
I just you know and the otherpart of my story I like to say
is I was a lost idealist in mytwenties, just had this burning
desire to do good and didn'treally know where to direct it.
So I kept doing these serviceprograms because I felt kind of

(05:22):
at peace while doing that.
And then I went to grad schooland encountered the adaptive
leadership of Ron Heifetz andreally went deep in that and
then I built my career.
So after I got my doctorate andhad done this, all this work
around adaptive leadership andtesting all these ideas in the
service programs, I landed a jobat City Year, which is, for
folks who don't know, it's anAmeriCorps program, so young

(05:42):
adults who are 18 to 24 yearsold and doing a year of service
in high need schools to keepstudents in school and on track
to graduate, and it's based inBoston, but when I got there I
was 18 years old and was alreadyin like 15 different cities.
It's now in 29 cities and hassomething like 2,000, 2,500 core
members every year.
So it's a big organization andI felt like the thing I could

(06:04):
contribute was a really powerfulapproach to inner development
for each core member Because I,having done service experiences,
I just knew howtransformational these service
experiences were.
But I also know it's reallyeasy to get so focused on your
to-do list and the urgency ofserving the people right in
front of you.
We can just not focus on ourown, the way it's transforming

(06:25):
us, and our own inner workaround this.
So I said I want to do this andthe first thing I realized was
I had no idea how to do it LikeI had certainly done it on small
programs, I had personallyexperienced it in personal
growth experiences, but to builda capacity to do that work at
the scale of an organizationlike City Year, which was in
dozens of cities with thousandsof people, I just didn't know
how to do it.
And the first two chapters ofthe book talk about the decade

(06:47):
of trial and error, of justtrying things that didn't work.
The first thing was I said wecan't develop leaders and you
can't do inner developmentwithout reflection.
And everyone said reflection isgreat but we're way too busy
and we quickly proved that wrong.
So we were able to get an hourevery other week and then people
hated it.
It turns out that just givingpeople time to reflect is not
always effective.
People just use it to vent andcomplain and it was not a

(07:10):
productive use of time.
So then it's kind of how do youdesign an experience that is
actually productive, that'sscalable?
And part of it was we couldn'thave PhD level consultants
coming in to do this work forthousands of core members.
So it was like how do we createan experience in which the
organization starts creatingthese spaces for itself?
So you have kind ofenthusiastic and skilled

(07:31):
non-experts holding spaces fortheir peers and colleagues and
it took a while to design.
Like how do you design anexperience like that is
consistently powerful?
And then the whole idea of innerdevelopment.
You know there was still aculture of let's take a second
to reflect on that.
After school program we justran and make sure we're

(07:52):
reflecting, but to say what aremy core values or what's my
shadow, or like that's deepinner work.
And there's a real culturalkind of assumption of if you
turn your attention away fromthe people you're serving to
turn to focus on yourself.
You're kind of abandoning thework of serving others, these
kind of and nobody ever saysthat out loud, but when you see

(08:13):
the resistance that emerges whenyou say let's try and invite
people into this inner work, youjust see the resistance and it
seems to be grounded in thatsense.
So you had to get over thecultural resistance to saying
this kind of inner work isactually so connected to our
ability to serve others that wehave to prioritize it and
integrate it into the experienceyou know.

(08:35):
So again, the book is aboutdecades of like, figuring out
how to solve for those problems.
Until you know, I was able tocreate an organization-wide
capacity to do this.

Oh, that's awesome.
I think I was at an ILAconference and you and I have
been longtime members of the ILAand I saw Ron Heifetz and he
said how have your experimentsbeen going?
Exactly?

Max Klau (08:54):
Exactly.
I mean, that's the idea ofadaptive leadership.
You don't know how to do it, soyou got to try things and I try
in the book to be reallytransparent about.
There was just a lot of failurealong the way, but that's what
leadership looks like whenyou're not exactly sure how to
succeed at something.

And again, if we're going to do this at scale
because, yes, I just have somuch respect, max, because it's
kind of that space where thetheory kind of interfaces with
reality and it's easy in aclassroom to say, well, you know
, you got to really focus onreflexivity and critical
reflection and it soundswonderful, but then when we
actually put that into action,you know what happens and what

(09:28):
do we do now and how do we tweakit.
I love the fact that you bringthat experience, the theory and
the practice to the conversation.
I think it's invaluable.
I really really do so.
Okay, talk a little bit aboutservant leadership.
I've had one conversation aboutservant leadership.
Had Nathan Eva on.
We had that dialogue Listeners.
If you have not listened tothat episode, please feel free

(09:50):
to do that as well.
But talk a little bit aboutservant leadership.
Why specifically servantleadership?

Max Klau (09:55):
So servant leadership is both an ancient idea and a
modern field of study.
And if you look at pretty muchany wisdom tradition, this idea
that the highest kind ofspiritual level is, when you
exist, to be of service toothers, whether it's, you know,
moses striking out against aslave who's being oppressed, or
Jesus caring about the leastamong us, or Buddha's compassion

(10:17):
for the sick and the dyingEverywhere you see this idea
that we need to use our giftsand our life energies to be of
service to others, particularlythe marginalized and the
vulnerable among us.
And the modern take of servantleadership was Robert Greenleaf,
who wrote a very influentialbook in the 70s about servant
leadership and really createdthe modern academic study.
And his kind of key idea is thegreatest test of a servant

(10:39):
leader is whether those servedbecome more capable, more
empowered and more likelythemselves to serve others.
So it's really a very strongcontrast to somebody who uses
power to try and control othersor dominate others or to fulfill
their own problematic hungersfor power or control or love, or

(11:02):
we know when people are usingauthority positions to feed
their shadow.
That's really problematic andwe see a lot of that in the
world today.
So there's that kind ofconceptual framework and then my
entire career has been in thevery practical application of.
You know, I didn't work in thecorporate world and not even in
a traditional nonprofit.
Americorps is a uniqueexperience with people who have

(11:24):
chosen to spend a year servingothers, which is really still a
bit of a countercultural choice.
And then, you know, for sevenyears I was at New Politics
trying to bring people who hadalready served, whether that's
military vets or AmeriCorps orPeace Corps alumni to invite
them to serve again throughpolitics, that we deeply need
more servant leaders withpolitical power in this country.

Well, so highlight two or three kind of concepts
that you want listeners to knowabout that, invite them into the
conversation a little bit andobviously we're not going to
cover the entire book but whatare some things you want people
to know about this approach?
I'm really really interested inkind of hearing how you're
going to speak about that.

Max Klau (12:07):
So there's some key ideas, and the first is the idea
that leadership is always adual journey, and what that
means is, on one hand, we wantto improve our communities and
our country, our organizations.
You know, leadership is abouttrying to make things better for
the world around us, butthere's always this parallel
process of transformation andchange in the world within us.

(12:27):
So inner and outer change arealways happening at the same
time, and this is grounded inthe belief they're too
interconnected to separate, andI always use the image of DNA,
of just those twin strands.
You literally can't pull thesethings apart, and actually, you
know, as a result of researchthat I share in my first book, I
just deeply arrived at thisbelief that the world around us
is a manifestation of ourcurrent inner way of being and

(12:50):
at this moment of polycrisis,when there are so many
challenges whether it'senvironmental crisis or the
political crisis or healthcrisis we're doing all this to
ourselves.
We need to grow beyond the waysof being that are creating this
reality.
So to really deeply embrace thepower of inner development as
part of what we need to be doingis really central to this.

So talk about inner development, talk about the
inner development goals, mayberight now.
I love how you're phrasing that.
Did you say dual process?
Was that how you phrased it Adual journey?

Max Klau (13:20):
I like to say a dual journey.

Dual journey.
I love that, because I 100%agree with your assertion here
that, yes, we have the outward,but we also have the inward, and
are we on both?

Max Klau (13:31):
Yeah, and the further out into the world you go, the
deeper into yourself you'repushed to dig, and so we just
can't separate these things.
And a little bit about theinner development goals.
They're relatively new.
They're connected to the UNSustainable Development Goals,
which were launched in 2015.
And that's a set of 17 reallykind of clear, powerful

(13:51):
international development goals,like good education for every
kid and drinkable water andbreathable air.
Government that works, thisreally inspiring, amazing set of
goals that were designed toreally bring clarity and focus
to our international developmentwork and, on the one hand,
they're very effective atbringing a lot of focus and
accountability and, on the otherhand, we weren't making
progress as fast as we need.

(14:12):
And so this group of thoughtleaders, who were all my
favorite people, like a BobKeegan and an Otto Scharmer and
a Peter Senge, like all thefolks from the leadership field
were part of this conversationand they emerged with the sense
of we need a complimentaryinitiative that brings a focus
to the inner development thatpeople need to do if we're going
to actually be able to achievethese outer world goals, you

(14:34):
know.
So that became the beginning ofthe inner development goals, and
what followed was a reallyrobust research project of just
inviting something like 80,000people to share their thoughts
about what they think are themost essential elements.
They distilled it into this verysimple, powerful model of five
dimensions and 23 skills, andmostly what they've done is
create this narrative that helpspeople understand the

(14:57):
importance of inner development,and I have to say I just
discovered it a couple of yearsago and threw myself into
involvement, because I've beendoing this work for two decades,
grounded in this belief of weneed to be as thoughtful about
the inner development we do withpeople as we are about the
goals, about the high schoolgraduation rates that we're so
focused on.
We need to hold both of thosethings.

(15:18):
And again, graduation ratesthat we're so focused on, we
need to hold both of thosethings.
And again, the book is thestory of how do you do this at
scale, and so it's reallyexciting that you know, after
spending decades on this,suddenly there's this emerging
global movement that is sayingthis work is so vitally
important.
I'll stop there.

Is that helpful?
Oh for sure, and so I thinkwe've got this, the dual journey
, servant leadership, as a modelthat we can kind of ground to.
We've got one part of thejourney is that that's the inner
development, and if we are ahealthier human being, the
assumption would be that whenyou put us in a position of
authority, we are going to workfrom a healthier place,

(15:55):
hopefully and okay.

Max Klau (15:56):
So a couple other things that you want listeners
to know about as we explore thebook people know of as the

(16:20):
hero's journey, and Campbell wasa comparative mythologist who
studied myths told all aroundthe world, from caveman times up
to you know.
His work has inspired manyHollywood blockbusters and I
encountered his work sort oftowards the end of my doctoral
career and it just blew my mindhow much what he had been
talking about kind of helped meunderstand my own journey, how
much it illuminated thelandscape of inner development
that we all have to undertake ifwe want to achieve our full

(16:42):
potential.
And the fact that this is souniversal and cross-cultural
means this must be some kind offoundational human experience
and at its most basic, you leavebehind your familiar,
comfortable, ordinary life andyou encounter the road of trials
, where the essence of this isyou have to confront your own
inner limitations and fears andwork with them until you can

(17:06):
transcend them.

You're making me think of Luke Skywalker in
Empire Strikes Back, where hehad to go into that cave, the
cave.

Max Klau (17:14):
Yeah, I mean that's you know, it's classic Joseph
Campbell and he's like can Ibring my weapons?
He's like all you can bring iswhat you have with you and when
you turn and go inwards intothis space you don't fully
understand, ultimately youencounter yourself and your
shadow self.
You know he encounters DarthVader and cuts off Darth Vader's
head and a mask pops up andthen finds out that it's

(17:34):
actually him in the suit.
So he discovers the shadow ishimself, and I do a ton of
training that uses Star Wars tohelp people understand this
stuff.
But that's exactly the idea isthat the inner development
involves confronting the shadowand recognizing that is part of
us.
And then how do we workskillfully with it to balance

(17:55):
the force within the self, youknow, and so that's essential.
And then you get to thisquestion of how the hell do you
do that at scale?
How do you experience that getsthousands of people through
that?
And that was you know why Iwrote this book?
Because figured out how tocreate an experience that
invites people into they're evenwilling to try on this idea
that I'm on kind of a mythicjourney of transformation and I

(18:16):
need to do this work, and all ofit has to be calibrated to be
done in a conference room on aTuesday afternoon, and that's
part of this work is this is youknow, I've experienced this
these really powerful personalgrowth experiences.
That is not something that canhappen in a typical workspace.
So how do we calibrate all ofthis so that it's powerful but
also something that you can doin a kind of typical work

(18:38):
environment and it doesn'ttrigger this kind of allergic
reaction from people who arelike what the hell are you
asking me to do?
Here and again, it took years tofigure out how do you design an
experience and invite them intothat, you know.
So there's that.
And then the question is always, I would say, service turns
pain into power.
So all of us have difficultthings we face.
We've all struggled and we'veall gotten gifts from our

(19:02):
struggles and the real, a fulljourney always includes finding
some way to use our pain to beof service to others.
Use the things that we'velearned from our challenges to
be of service to others and toaccept the call that comes from.
I'm going to fully step into myability and responsibility to

(19:24):
use the gifts of my journey tobe of service to others, and
that's challenging and scarystuff, but we can also invite
people into it and support themin that process.

Well, okay, so a couple of things here.
So we've got kind of JosephCampbell also undergirding some
of this work and that we aregoing there can be this
flirtation with therapy.
You know, careful, are we goingover certain boundaries?

(20:07):
So I imagine you have to besuper clear also in your work
about, okay, how do I invitepeople in?
How do we do it in a way thatthey're going to be open to it?
B, how do we do it in a waythat is safe for that individual
?

Max Klau (20:17):
You know, you know what I'm saying right, I mean
absolutely Like we can't open upthings that we're not qualified
to work with in that space.
And it's exactly kind of a keychallenge of this work of how do
you go there in a way that'scalibrated for a professional
space that's run by, you know,non-experts.
And I have to say this is oneof the big challenges I write in
the book is, understandably andvery appropriately, people are

(20:39):
fearful of what could happen,and I honor that fear and shared
it myself, but also have donethis now with so many people and
at such scale that I'verealized the fears are unfounded
.
It is possible to create theseexperiences and invite people
into it and set it up in such away where it can be responsibly
done at scale.

(21:00):
And the other piece I'll say tothat is you know, I often think
of my work as I'm trying towork on the civic sacred, which
is, you know, I'm not atherapist, this is not about
fundamentally healing people andI'm not doing personal growth
seminars of let's go out to aretreat center for five days,
and although I love all of thatstuff, this is really civic

(21:20):
leadership development.
And what does it mean to takethis idea of inner work and
integrating shadow as anessential piece of our civic
life.
That's something, as citizens,we need to do and I just feel
like, again, we've hit thelimits of our ability to respond
to the challenge of this momentwithout doing this kind of work
and to understand that this isabout stepping up as citizens

(21:42):
and trying to take it out of thetherapy office or the retreat
center to something that we docivically and think about as
part of our kind ofresponsibility.

I like that.
I hadn't made that connection,but it makes perfect sense, max.
We're going to ground it herein how we engage civically.
As you were speaking, this is alittle bit of a sidebar, so I
apologize, but I had thisthought come through my mind.
I've talked a little bit aboutthis on the podcast before, but
it's just an interestingconundrum for us as a society,
as we've seen the numbers ofpeople of faith going to

(22:15):
wherever they go diminish anddecrease.
Yeah, where, as a society?
Let's just say, in the 60s and70s you had a larger percentage
of people going somewhere weeklyto reflect on who they were.
They heard a good message, theyreflected on how that applied
to them in their lives and therewas at least an hour and a half

(22:36):
for people to sit in that spaceand exist.
And, of course, there is apercentage of people who still
do that every Sunday, but thathas decreased.
Yes, yeah, you know, it's justreally, really interesting from
a societal level.
I think probably part of whatyou're introducing, if it could
be done at scale, is some ofthat space of just pause,

(22:57):
reflect, think, observe, be incommunity, be in community with
others in some of these dialogue, in these conversations,
because I think we're hungry forit.
I really do.

Max Klau (23:08):
Absolutely no.
I so appreciate that you wentthere because I do think it's
one of the reasons why I loveJoseph Campbell, who just
illuminated all of this.
Like this is not necessarilyabout religious doctrine.
No, talks about the wastelandsas an experience where the

(23:30):
rituals of our daily lives bearno relationship to our authentic
inner experiences and wherewe're kind of going through
motions of things that don'treally touch the deepest parts
of who we are.
And I think, you know, considermyself religious.
I belong to a synagogue.
I know like it's, you know,increasing minority of people.
But I also definitelyunderstand people who look at

(23:51):
organized religion today andjust say these rituals do not
speak to me and there are toomany examples of authorities in
these religions who are notmoral exemplars, who in no way
embody the values that they saythey embody.
And I understand people sayinglike that is not something I can
get behind.
And I understand people sayinglike that is not something.

I can get behind.
You know there's a fundamentalneed in humans.
Yes, I think it met that needAgain.
Horrible atrocities were donein the name of religion and
still are 100%, and just addhumans.
And I think, yeah, it's moreabout the process.
I'm thinking of like peoplegoing somewhere, having a
conversation, being in community, hearing a good message, having

(24:34):
that time to reflect on whothey are as a human.
I think that's a fundamentalhuman need.
Would you agree with that?

Max Klau (24:39):
Yeah, and also part of the story was I spent a lot of
time struggling with what doesit mean to be a kind of a moral
person in the world.
You know, I studied moraldevelopment was one of the
things I studied and justconstantly like who are the good
guys and who are the bad guysand what's the right policy and
what's the wrong, and like thiswhole landscape of is it either
this or is it that?

(25:00):
Or, and just kind of arrived at, everything is light and shadow
within us and the question ishave we awoken to confront the
shadow within ourselves andbegun to work skillfully with it
and with that framework?
I'm like there are people inevery religious tradition who
have done that and bringwholeness and compassion into
the world, and there are peoplein every religious tradition who

(25:21):
project all the darkest stuffinto some other and are creating
this just horrible, you knowworld on fire in which we live,
and so what does it mean toinvite more and more people into
?
Let's do this work from a civicperspective?
It can also happen in a lot ofdifferent perspectives, but this
is part of what we need to doas citizens is to get beyond

(25:42):
this.
I'm all good and they're allbad and I'm on the right team
and they're the wrong team tolet's all walk this path
together of awakening to shadowand trying to work with it
skillfully and use it and be ofservice to others from that
place of wholeness.

Okay, as we begin to wind down our time, max,
anything else that you want tohighlight?
I mean, I think you've givenlisteners a lot of just really,
really nice foundational thingsto kind of hang on to.
Obviously, in the book it goesmuch more in depth, but is there
anything else you want to sayabout the work?
Well, I think what's?

Max Klau (26:15):
so exciting about the inner development goals is again
, after doing this for like 20years of work, to suddenly
realize how there's thisemerging global consciousness
around the need to bring thisinto our organizations and into
our communities.
And I still consider myselfexperimenting with all of this.
And I still consider myselfexperimenting with all of this
and I just welcome connectingwith anybody who is interested

(26:38):
in how do we bring this out intothe world and try and bring
this kind of dual journey and athoughtful approach to the inner
work along with a thoughtfulapproach to responding to the
challenges around us.
I just feel like it's what theworld needs and it's kind of an
exciting moment of emergence andI want to be connected with
folks who are interested inexploring that and experimenting
that together.
Love it.

Well, sir, I always begin to wind down the
conversation by, you know,asking one question, which is
you know what have you beenlistening to reading streaming,
what's caught your attention inrecent times?
It could have something to dowith what we've discussed.
It could have nothing to dowith what we've just discussed,
but what have you been consuming?
What's caught your attentionthat may be of interest to
listeners?

Max Klau (27:18):
I can share a few things.
I'm really loving the bookAbundance by Ezra Klein, which
is a really powerful window intohow do we need to shift things
to kind of build the world thatwe need to create in the years
ahead.
And I spent a lot of time withMichael Mead does mythology,
does a podcast Living Myth?
And just I spent a lot of timethinking about what does
mythology have to teach us abouthow to be with this moment of

(27:41):
incredible turmoil andtransformation and kind of dying
and being born, and so that thepodcast with a thousand faces
is a podcast from the JosephCampbell Foundation.
So anyway, I find that bothcreate solace and resilience
from this challenging time.

I love it.
Well, listeners, you can find abunch of links in the show
notes, and so please check thoseout, please go purchase this
book and you know what, max, Ijust have great respect.
I appreciate again, as I'vesaid before, not only the
multiple lenses you're kind ofconverging into one conversation
, but also just that experienceof theory and practice and the

(28:19):
interface of those two worlds.
It's just absolutely essentialto help us better understand
this work.
So, sir, thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, scott, really apleasure Appreciate it.
Thank you, scott, really apleasure Appreciate it.
Okay, Max, living in that spacewhere theory meets practice, and
, as all of you know who've beenlistening for a long period of

(28:40):
time, that's a space I love andit's a space I have great
respect for.
How do we operationalizesomething like the hero's
journey or servant leadership?
Max is doing that work, he'sexploring and, max, I have
incredible respect for youListeners.
I have a respect for you aswell.
Thank you so much for checkingin.

(29:01):
As always, wherever you are inthe world, take care, be well,
have a great day.

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