September 10, 2025 • 35 mins
Dr. Jonathan W. White is a professor of American Studies at Christopher Newport University. He is the author or editor of 17 books covering various topics, including civil liberties during the Civil War, the USS Monitor and the Battle of Hampton Roads, the presidential election of 1864, and what Abraham Lincoln and soldiers dreamt about.
Among his awards are the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia’s Outstanding Faculty Award (2019), CNU’s Alumni Society Award for Teaching and Mentoring (2016), the Abraham Lincoln Institute Book Prize (2015), and the University of Maryland Alumni Excellence Award in Research (2024).
His recent books include A House Built By Slaves: African American Visitors to the Lincoln White House (2022), which was co-winner of the Gilder Lehrman Lincoln Prize (with Jon Meacham); Shipwrecked: A True Civil War Story of Mutinies, Jailbreaks, Blockade-Running, and the Slave Trade (2023); Final Resting Places: Reflections on the Meaning of Civil War Graves (2023); and an exciting new children’s book, My Day with Abe Lincoln (2024).
A Quote From This Episode
- "Viewed from the abolition ground, Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull; but measured by his country, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Book: Measuring the Man: The Writings of Frederick Douglass on Abraham Lincoln
- Article: Flag burning has a long history in the U.S. — and legal protections from the Supreme Court
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for Prague - October 15-18, 2025!
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
- Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
- Blog
My Approach to Hosting
- The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.
♻️ Please share with others and follow/subscribe to the podcast!
⭐️ Please leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or your platform of choice.
➡️ Follow me on LinkedIn for more on leadership, communication, and tech.
📜 Subscribe to my weekly newsletter featuring four hand-picked articles.
🌎 You can learn more about my work on my Website.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast
Practical Wisdom for Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin.
I have a returning guest.
His bio's in the show notes.
If you don't know him by now,you haven't been, you've been
living in a cave.
I think it's Jonathan White.
I have a feeling I know whatwe're about to talk about today
too.
He is a professor of AmericanStudies at Christopher Newport
(00:21):
University, and I don't know ofanyone who knows more about
Abraham Lincoln than Jonathan.
I also don't know anyone who ismore prolific because, like
clockwork, on an annual basis,he has a new book that has come
out, exploring this topic thathe is so passionate about from a
new angle.
(00:41):
And, sir, thank you so much forrejoining me on the podcast
today.
What are we going to jump into?
What have you been working on?
I'm excited to hear.
Jonathan White (00:50):
Yeah well, thank you so much for having me back.
I will be publishing a book inabout three weeks called
Measuring the man the Writingsof Frederick Douglass on Abraham
Lincoln, and I had this ideaabout a year and a half ago to
pull together everything thatDouglas wrote about Lincoln or
said about Lincoln, both duringLincoln's lifetime and
afterwards, because these aretwo of the most important
(01:13):
leaders in the 19th century.
They're really two of the mostimportant leaders in all of
American history.
Wow.
And they didn't always getalong.
So Douglas was very critical ofLincoln.
Early on in Lincoln'spresidency came to really
appreciate what Lincoln did asthe leader of the US during the
Civil War, and so I wanted togive readers a sense of that
change over time in one book.
(01:34):
Bring it all together into oneplace.
Scott Allen (01:36):
Awesome, ok, well, let's jump in there.
So you have two men incrediblyinfluential in the landscape of
American history.
But you know Douglass wascritical of Lincoln, so take us
through a little bit of that.
What were some of hisperspectives and some of his
criticisms?
Jonathan White (01:55):
Yeah.
So it's rooted in their verydifferent views of politics and
the Constitution.
So Douglass believed that theUS Constitution was an
anti-slavery document, that, ifyou interpreted it correctly,
that it actually pointed towardsfreedom rather than slavery.
And that's actually a verydifferent view than most people
have today.
Most of us look back at theConstitution and we say, oh well
(02:16):
, it was a pro-slavery documentor a compromise with slavery.
Douglas said no, it's ananti-slavery document.
Lincoln had a more moderateview.
Douglass said no, it's ananti-slavery document.
Lincoln had a more moderate view.
His view was that theConstitution was a compromise
and that it had some pro-slaveryand some anti-slavery aspects
to it.
And so when Lincoln becamepresident, he believed that he
(02:36):
was bound by the ConstitutionAll presidents take an oath to
preserve, protect and defend it.
And he believed that theConstitution protected slavery
where the states wanted to haveit, whereas Douglass believed if
an anti-slavery president camein he could just kind of make
policies to get rid of slavery.
And so Douglass was reallydisappointed when Lincoln was
(02:58):
inaugurated and Lincoln saidthat he would protect slavery
where it already existed.
He just wouldn't allow it tospread into Western territories.
And Douglas was so angry withLincoln that he actually called
Lincoln the South's greatestslave hound and abolitionism's
worst enemy and he said theSouth has no reason to secede.
Lincoln's not going to doanything to touch slavery,
(03:18):
you've got nothing to be afraidof.
So for the first year and ahalf, douglas is really
frustrated that Lincoln seems tobe moving too slowly on
emancipation.
Scott Allen (03:30):
Now talk to me about the communication between
these two individuals.
Are they communicating thiswhole time or is it kind of, you
know, criticism from afar andthrough the press?
How's that working?
Jonathan White (03:43):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So they meet for the first timein August of 1863.
Douglass had his own newspaper,so he's writing op-eds.
I don't know if Lincoln everread any of the op-eds, but
Lincoln certainly knew whoFrederick Douglass was.
I mean, everyone knew whoFrederick Douglass was during
the Civil War.
And so for the first year and ahalf of the war, douglas is
(04:05):
writing these op-eds.
He's out giving speeches aroundthe country and many of these
writings and speeches are highlycritical of Abraham Lincoln.
When Lincoln issues theEmancipation Proclamation in
January of 1863, that authorizesblack men to enlist in the
Union Army and FrederickDouglass is thrilled about this
(04:26):
that black men are going to beable to flee from slavery or
free blacks in the North will beable to now join the army and
they will be able to fight notonly for union but also for
emancipation.
The problem is that blacksoldiers were not treated with
equality.
They got less pay than whitesoldiers.
They got worse uniforms andguns and equipment than white
soldiers.
(04:47):
They tend to have to do what iswhat's called fatigue duty,
which is what it sounds like.
It's hard labor that makes youtired.
And if all of that is not badenough, the Confederates created
a policy that black soldiersand their white commanding
officers, if they were capturedon the battlefield, would be
treated as slaves and as asslaves in insurrection, meaning
(05:09):
that they could be shot andkilled on the spot or sold into
bondage, even if they had beenfree their whole lives.
And so Douglas looks at thesituation and on the one hand he
sees progress, that now blackmen can serve in the military,
but on the other hand he knowsthat bullets don't discriminate
on account of the color of yourskin and a black soldier is just
(05:29):
as likely to be shot as a whitesoldier.
So they should have equality,especially equal pay.
And so these two guys met forthe first time in August of 1863
.
Douglas goes to the White Houseuninvited, unannounced.
And Douglas goes to the WhiteHouse uninvited, unannounced,
just shows up, and that probablysounds crazy to people today,
but actually back then anyonewho wanted to could go in and
(05:52):
just meet with the president.
I think we've talked about thatin the past.
And so Douglas pushes Lincolnon these issues of inequality
for black soldiers and Lincolnsort of explains you know,
you're right, and eventuallyblack soldiers will get equal
pay.
But he says essentially theconstituency in the North won't
(06:13):
allow for it right now and we'vegot to take steps deliberately
and slowly, gradually, in orderto sort of bring the public
along.
But eventually he says, blacksoldiers will get equal pay,
which eventually they do.
And Douglas goes away from thatmeeting somewhat disappointed
because he didn't get what hewanted but also appreciating the
(06:34):
political constraints andpolitical realities that Lincoln
as a president was facing.
They met a second time a yearlater and this time it was at
Lincoln's invitation.
And by August of 1864, lincolnwas convinced he would lose in
his bid for reelection and heactually invites Douglas to come
to the White House and theytalk about a way that they could
(06:55):
free as many slaves as possiblebefore Lincoln is out of office
.
And that meeting reallytransforms Douglas's view of
Lincoln because he sees inLincoln a heart that really
wants black freedom.
And their final meeting wasactually on the when Lincoln was
inaugurated.
For the second time in March of1865, douglas went to the white
(07:16):
house for the big party.
The police wouldn't let him in.
They eventually let him in andthey tried to very like,
surreptitiously lead him rightout of a window actually that
they had turned into an exit,and they try to very
surreptitiously lead him rightout of a window, actually that
they had turned into an exit.
And Douglas realizes whatthey're doing and he shouts to
somebody and says you know, tellMr Lincoln, I'm here.
And so they call to Lincoln andLincoln comes over and he says
(07:37):
oh, there's my friend Douglas.
And Lincoln asks him you know,what did you think of my
inaugural address?
And Douglas says something likeoh, you know, my opinion
doesn't matter, there's other,more important people here.
And Lincoln says there's no onewhose opinion I would value
more than yours.
And Douglas then turns to himand says it was a sacred effort
and it's a really incrediblemoment where these two guys are
(08:00):
connecting and talking.
And Lincoln wants to know whatdo you think, fred, about this
speech I just gave Lincoln?
Actually, shortly after thatinvited Douglas to tea and
Douglas turned him down becausehe had a speaking engagement and
Douglas's policy was if I'vebeen invited to give a lecture
somewhere, I'm going to upholdmy end of the bargain there.
(08:21):
Douglas later said if I hadknown he wasn't going to live
that much longer, I would havecanceled that lecture and gone
to see Lincoln for tea.
Scott Allen (08:30):
Wow.
So you know and this isn'tprobably a very simplistic
interpretation, but it soundslike the relationship and
Lincoln slowing down, pausing,listening, and then that
authentic dialogue with oneanother of look, I want to get
(08:51):
here.
These are some of theconstraints that we're
experiencing right now and thatchange, just initiating change,
is so incredibly difficult in alot of different contexts.
It sounds like in the earlieryears, douglas wanted change now
and just that's the onlysolution, but he gained a little
bit of an appreciation of whatthat actually takes.
(09:13):
But then I think it sounds likefrom what you're saying,
lincoln really began toempathize with some of his
perspectives and learned fromhim.
Is that?
Am I in the ballpark here?
Jonathan White (09:24):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely correct.
I did a book a couple of yearsago called A House Built by
Slaves African-American Visitorsto the Lincoln White House, and
I traced the stories as many asI could of black men and women
coming to the White House tomeet with Lincoln and to talk
about what was on their minds,and this was a story that had
been lost in history for 160years.
(09:47):
And what I found in all ofthose stories all but one really
, and there was a reason for theone.
But in almost all of thosestories Lincoln listened to the
people who came in and talked tohim and he was willing to
engage with them where they wereand to try to do what he could.
So one of the most profound isthat as a young man, lincoln had
(10:12):
opposed allowing black men tovote.
Martin Van Buren had actuallysupported black suffrage in New
York in the 1820s, and when VanBuren was running for president
in the 1840s, lincoln mocked theidea of allowing black men to
vote.
And what many people don't knowis that black men could vote in
most of the states at the timeof our founding.
(10:32):
That right to vote was takenaway in the 1820s and 30s and
40s.
And so Lincoln is kind ofwithin the majority view in the
1830s and 40s saying you know,black men shouldn't have the
right to vote.
But during the war he hasseveral delegations of black men
come and meet with him from theSouth and these include some
(10:54):
men who had escaped from slaveryfrom New Orleans, from Virginia
, from North Carolina, and theybring petitions and they point
out you know, we're serving ourcountry, we're paying taxes, we
used to have the right to vote,we should have it again.
And those delegations changedLincoln's mind.
He was willing to listen tothem and engage with them and
(11:15):
treat them with kindness andhumility and he then began
working behind the scenes topush for the right to vote for
black men.
In fact, the last speechLincoln ever gave, in April of
1865, he publicly called forblack men to have the right to
vote for black men.
In fact, the last speechLincoln ever gave, in April of
1865, he publicly called forblack men to have the right to
vote if they had served in thearmy or were educated.
And in the audience that nightwas John Wilkes Booth.
(11:36):
Wow, john Wilkes Booth saidthat means N-word citizenship.
By God, that'll be the lastspeech he ever gives, and four
days later Lincoln was dead, andso, in a way, lincoln's push
for black suffrage was the thingthat put John Wilkes Booth over
the edge, and it was blackdelegations meeting with Lincoln
that pushed Lincoln to come toaccept the idea of black
(11:59):
suffrage.
Scott Allen (12:01):
Well, what are a couple other insights from your
research in this most recentbook that maybe caught your
attention, maybe you didn't haveon your radar.
Jonathan White (12:11):
Yeah, my co-author and I actually
discovered a dozen documentsthat no one has ever seen, or no
one has seen for 160 years, Iguess, would be the more
accurate way to put it.
It's incredible how much isstill out there waiting to be
discovered.
And so we found eight newFrederick Douglass letters that
no one has seen before.
(12:32):
They were written to Britishcorrespondents, and I was able
to find them on microfilmnewspapers.
Actually because Douglass wouldwrite to these abolitionists in
England and what thoseabolitionists would do is they
would take out the private partsof the letters and then give
the public parts of the lettersto editors in England and then
(12:52):
the editors would publish them.
And some of this correspondencewas so radical that the British
readers actually didn't believethe letters were real.
And so I found editorials thatthe editors would write saying
we think these are legitimate,they're authentic and here's why
we think they are.
And what I did was I went toDouglass's papers at the Library
(13:14):
of Congress and I was able tofind the return correspondence.
So I was able to confirm thatthese letters were real and
legitimate.
But they give a new perspectiveon Douglass, I think, as a
political leader, in a couple ofways.
One is, douglass was willing tosay things to the British
audiences that he never wouldhave said to an American
(13:37):
audience.
Scott Allen (13:38):
Really.
Jonathan White (13:39):
Yeah.
So some of them were verycritical of Lincoln during the
war, like even more criticalthan what he was saying in the
United States at the time.
But the craziest one came rightafter Lincoln's assassination.
So Lincoln's assassinated, shoton April 14th 1865, dies the
(13:59):
morning of April 15th and theUnited States immediately has an
outpouring of grief andDouglass gave a couple of
speeches in Rochester, new York,where he was living, where he,
you know, talked about his griefand his friendship with Lincoln
and how well they knew oneanother and how wonderful
Lincoln was.
That was the message Douglasssent to American audiences.
(14:23):
He sent a very different one toBritish ones and he wrote a
letter on April 20th 1865, toone of these British
abolitionists saying you know,yes, it's awful that Lincoln has
been assassinated, but itactually might be better for the
cause of black freedom thatLincoln was killed Because
Lincoln as a leader, he wantedthe United States reunited.
(14:46):
His goal was to bringex-Confederates back into the
Union, so he wanted them torepent of their sins, to get rid
of slavery but then come backinto the United States.
And Lincoln wanted essentiallywhite Confederates and black
Southerners to come into theUnion together with political
rights Wow.
And Black.
Southerners to come into theUnion together with political
(15:08):
rights.
Wow, Now for someone likeDouglas, that's terrifying to
think about ex-Confederatesregaining political rights and
potentially political power.
So in this letter I discoveredto a British abolitionist,
Douglas says you know, it'sterrible that Lincoln was killed
, but Andrew Johnson mightactually be a better president
for Black Americans in thepost-war period.
And Douglas points out you know, both Lincoln and Johnson were
(15:30):
born into slave states.
They were both born intopoverty.
They're both self-made men, butLincoln moved out of a slave
state as a young man, whereasAndrew Johnson, the new
president, stayed in the slavestate, so he really understands
how terrible the slave power is.
He's going to punish theex-Confederates, whereas Lincoln
would have forgiven them.
And that shows us one like as arhetorical strategy, that
(15:54):
Douglass treats differentaudiences differently, which you
could do in that era, becauseit's not like videos can go
viral and then, everyone seeswhat you said to a private
audience.
But then it also shows us justhow focused Douglass was on
Black freedom and Black equality, that, as devastated as he was
to lose Lincoln, he recognizedthat losing Lincoln might be
(16:16):
best for his people in the longrun.
Scott Allen (16:23):
Wow, I view you as like a treasure hunter of sorts,
right?
I mean you're finding documentsthat haven't been read for 160
years.
You said.
Jonathan White (16:32):
Yeah, I've always viewed being a historian
as being a detective.
And the other fun thing aboutbeing a historian is you get to
read other people's mail andtheir diaries and so you know
you find one half of thecorrespondence.
And then you search's mail andtheir diaries and so you know
you find one half of thecorrespondence and then you
search until you find the otherhalf.
And that's the fun part aboutit.
Scott Allen (16:51):
Wow, wow.
Okay, so a couple otherinsights that stood out for you.
I mean, this is so cool thatyou are literally uncovering
documents that haven't been seenin that long.
That's so much fun.
And again, I think it's alsojust a very, very useful insight
that, to your point, you can'tgo viral, so you can communicate
(17:14):
in different ways to differentaudiences Fascinating,
absolutely.
Jonathan White (17:20):
So a couple of other things that really stand
out in some of these writings.
One is that you know, abrahamLincoln and Frederick Douglass
both came out of poverty.
Now granted very differentexperiences.
Where Douglass was born intoslavery, lincoln obviously was
born free, but Douglas reallyappreciated what poverty did for
(17:41):
Lincoln in his development as aleader, and that's very
different from other people howthey viewed him.
So WEB Du Bois, who was, youknow, harvard educated very
prominent black leader in theearly late 19th, early 20th
century black leader in theearly late 19th, early 20th
century.
He looked down upon lincoln forlincoln's poor upbringing.
So there's a very famous and, Ithink, somewhat funny quote
(18:02):
from web du bois where he saidabraham lincoln was a southern
poor white of illegitimate birth, poorly educated and unusually
ugly, awkward and ill-dressed.
He likes muddy stories and wasa politician down to his toes.
So for someone like dubois andby the way, lincoln was not of
illegitimate birth, that waskind of a rumor that floated in
(18:24):
lincoln's lifetime, um, but forsomeone like dubois who was very
highly educated, he looked downon lincoln who who described
his own education with one wordand that was defective, whereas
for Douglass he reallyappreciated the fact that
Lincoln was able to rise frompoor, like a poor background,
(18:47):
and make himself into a greatperson.
And Douglass talked about, youknow, for instance, the right to
vote which we talked about alittle bit ago.
When Lincoln came out andpublicly advocated for black
suffrage in April of 1865, hehad limited suffrage in mind.
So those black men who hadserved in the army or who were
(19:09):
educated yes, now, for no othermen in the country at that time
were there limitations like that.
There was universal whitemanhood suffrage.
If you were a man who was white, who was at least 18, you could
vote in any state, yep.
And so some people criticizedLincoln for saying well, let's
limit it to those who haveserved or those who are educated
(19:31):
.
For Douglas there was noproblem in that.
And Douglas said that Lincolnlearned his politics through
splitting rails, like throughchopping down trees, cutting up
the wood into rails.
And what Douglas said was youput the thin edge of the wedge
in first and then you strike atit until it splits the rail and
the thick edge gets in.
(19:51):
Wow, edge gets in and that wasDouglas.
Douglas's way of saying.
Like I recognize, lincoln as aleader can't do anything he
wants instantaneously.
He can't just snap his fingersand get what he wants.
He has to persuade theelectorate.
Hey, let's do something wehaven't done in a long time.
Let's give black men the rightto vote.
(20:12):
Most white northerners aregoing to oppose that.
So what do you do?
You start with the thin edge.
You say you know what Men whohave served in the army, they,
they have fought for citizenship.
They deserve the right to vote.
Let's give it to them andeventually the country will come
to see that all black menshould be part of this body
(20:32):
politic.
Yeah, there's another one that'svery famous, but we include I
mean we included everything inthe book.
And in 1876, on the anniversaryof Lincoln's assassination,
douglas dedicated a statue inWashington DC.
And this statue is verycontroversial today because it
(20:53):
shows Lincoln kind of hoveringwith his arm outstretched over a
black man who is rising up outof bondage.
And so, since Lincoln is sortof standing and the black man is
kneeling, but rising it's,today the statue has gotten a
lot of criticism.
I think it's an importantstatue because the money for it
was raised entirely byAfrican-Americans who after the
(21:17):
Civil War, after Lincoln'sassassination, said we want to
do something to thank AbrahamLincoln and show our public
appreciation for Lincoln.
And Douglass was invited todeliver the speech dedicating
the statue, and it's a veryfamous speech, and in that
speech Douglas recounted all ofthe things that Lincoln had done
(21:40):
during the Civil War that hadfrustrated him as a radical, the
things like where Lincoln hadbeen too slow in pushing for
black freedom or for blackrights.
And he in that speech actuallysays that Lincoln was
preeminently the white man'spresident and entirely devoted
to the welfare of white men.
So Douglas sort of says likethis is how we thought about
(22:01):
Lincoln at the time.
But then he pivots and and inthe speech he then takes a
different perspective and herecognizes that Lincoln was, as
a leader, didn't haveomnipotence he.
He had to think about what thewhite electorate in the north
wanted or what it thought, andthat Lincoln steps in pushing
(22:25):
towards emancipation in the wayhe did and bringing the public
along with him was, in the end,the best way to do it and.
Douglas essentially concedesthat if Lincoln had done what
Douglass wanted, if Lincoln hadbeen too radical too early, that
it would have lost the CivilWar and emancipation wouldn't
(22:46):
have happened anyway.
And Douglass essentially came toadmit that Lincoln's approach
had been the right one.
And Douglass has thisincredible line where he says
had been the right one.
And Douglass has thisincredible line where he says,
viewed from the genuineabolition ground, mr Lincoln
seemed tardy, cold, dull andindifferent, like when we looked
at him back then we thoughtwhat's wrong with this guy?
(23:07):
He's the South's greatestfriend here.
But then he says, but measuringhim by the sentiment of his
country, a sentiment he wasbound as a statesman to consult.
He was swift, zealous, radicaland determined.
And I think that's the reallegacy of these two guys is that
(23:28):
as leaders they came to learnfrom one another and they
started off in very differentplaces, came to learn from one
another and they started off invery different places.
But they both wanted verysimilar things and they they
were able to sort of see howeach one had something to teach
the other and ultimately theygot to the goal, which was the
emancipation proclamation andthen the 13th amendment, forever
(23:50):
ending slavery.
Scott Allen (23:51):
Yeah, how does the story of Douglas, kind of you
know post Lincoln's death, talka little bit about that and then
we'll kind of wind down.
Sure, he stayed active.
He stayed kind of really,really, really involved in the
movement throughout speeches.
Jonathan White (24:11):
For the rest of his life he was touring around
the country.
For the rest of his life hewrote his third autobiography
after, in the 1880s.
So he wrote threeautobiographies one in the 1840s
, one in the 1850s and one inthe 1880s.
He was always writing fornewspapers, editorials, those
(24:39):
sort of things.
In fact he died on his way togo give a speech and I highly
recommend, if the audience hasnever been, next time you go to
Washington DC, go to theFrederick Douglass home.
They do an extraordinary tour.
It's a national park site andI'm going to spoil it here, but
I'm assuming most of youraudience is probably at least 30
.
So if I'm spoiling somethingthat's been around for 150 years
, that's not on me.
If you go to the Douglas home,you do the tour and at the very
(25:02):
end they bring you back out tothe entryway and they tell you
you know, frederick Douglas gavespeeches for the rest of his
life fighting for black equality.
And as you're standing there inthe foyer they say and he fell
and died right here as he wasgetting ready to go out and get
in his carriage for anotherspeech, and I think it was going
to be a speech for women'srights in Washington DC, if
(25:24):
memory serves correct.
And so you can go and kind ofcapture what Douglas's life was
like by walking through his home.
Like by walking through hishome, and then at the end you're
kind of reminded that you had.
This guy fought for thepolitical rights of not only
black men but black and whitewomen as well for the entirety
of his career.
Scott Allen (25:45):
And how did it work out with the president after
Lincoln?
Jonathan White (25:49):
Yeah, that is not a happy story.
So Andrew Johnson comes in aspresident and, as I pointed out
before, douglas had great hopesfor him.
And I should say there wasreason for Douglas to have high
hopes.
So as the military governor ofTennessee in 1864, andrew
Johnson goes out and gives aspeech to a black audience in
(26:12):
Nashville and he says I will beyour Moses.
Like Andrew Johnson, the guywho's as racist as they come
says to a black audience I willbe your Moses.
And in fact he ended slavery inTennessee in 1864 because
Tennessee had been exempted fromthe Emancipation Proclamation.
And at the end of the war, whenLincoln is assassinated, andrew
(26:34):
Johnson says treason must bemade odious.
And so Frederick Douglassthought Andrew Johnson was going
to be this leader who was goingto punish ex-Confederates and
give black men the right to vote.
Well, douglass goes to theWhite House in February of 1866
and he meets with Andrew Johnsonand he pushes Johnson on black
(26:58):
suffrage and he kind of pointsto Lincoln and he says you know,
lincoln supported black votingrights for for black soldiers,
you should follow that lead.
And Johnson is is dismissiveand condescending.
And after Douglas and hisfriends leave, johnson says you
know, he's nothing but an N-word.
Who would slit a white man'sthroat if he could?
And a few days later, frederickDouglass went to the US Capitol
(27:23):
and gave a speech in the Houseof Representatives chamber about
Lincoln.
It was for Lincoln's birthdayand as part of that speech he
said and this was alluding toJohnson he said that Lincoln
didn't begin as a Moses and endas a pharaoh.
In other words, moses is theleader who leads the Israelites
(27:46):
out of Israel, and AndrewJohnson has said I will be your
Moses.
But now Douglas can see Johnsonknows the pharaoh, the guy who
wants to keep black peopleenslaved, can see Johnson knows
the Pharaoh, the guy who wantsto keep black people enslaved.
And and so Douglas points outin the speech which we have in
the book, lincoln is not likeAndrew Johnson if he had been
and and in a sense, like that'sDouglas acknowledging his view
(28:06):
in that letter that I discoveredwas wrong, and that that Andrew
Johnson was not the leader hehad hoped he would.
Yeah, it's Measuring the man.
The Writings of FrederickDouglass on Abraham Lincoln.
Scott Allen (28:25):
Okay, perfect.
Thank you, sir.
What are you looking to now asyour next project?
I know you have your eye onsomething right.
Jonathan White (28:32):
Yeah, so I've got a couple things in the works
.
I just finished a collection ofwritings, firsthand accounts of
Abraham Lincoln.
That's with the UniversityPress right now out for peer
review.
I'm writing a photographic bookabout the Lincoln home.
So if your audience knows theImages of America books that you
often find in gift shops,there's none about the Lincoln
(28:54):
home.
And that's one of the mostmagical places for me, where you
go and you walk through thehouse and you can just envision
Lincoln there, the family man,the real live person,
interacting with his kids, withhis wife, with his friends, and
so that one I'm almost finished.
I have to get that to thepublisher this fall.
(29:14):
And then the big project I'mworking on is a history of a
former slave in Arkansas whomurdered his former owner in the
process of rescuing hisdaughters from slavery, and it's
a very powerful story about afather's love and his willing to
do anything he could to savehis girls.
And it connects to Lincoln.
(29:35):
I'll give a little bit of aspoiler here.
It connects to Lincoln becausethe father and his friend ended
up getting tried in a militarycourt for murder.
They were found guilty and theywere sentenced to be executed,
but because it was a militarycourt.
They couldn't be executedwithout presidential approval,
and so the trial transcript wassent to Washington DC, where
(29:57):
Lincoln had to review it, andLincoln overturned the
conviction would not allow theseblack men to be executed, and
Lincoln's rationale was theEmancipation Proclamation had
declared these girls free, and afather has a right to rescue
his daughters from illegalbondage, and so it's a really
incredible story.
I've been sitting on itactually for about five years.
(30:18):
I've written about 20,000 words, but I haven't touched it for
about two years and I'm just nowgetting back to it, so
hopefully in a year or two I'llbe able to come back and talk
about that.
Scott Allen (30:30):
Well, you have an open invitation anytime, sir.
Oh, thanks, I am so thankfulfor your time today and your
wisdom is always.
I love our time togetherbecause I'm always learning and
I just have great respect foryour deep passion and knowledge
in this space.
I mean, it's just so much funto listen to you speak on this
(30:52):
topic.
As you know, I always end outthe episode by asking you what's
caught your attention in recenttimes.
So what have you been readingor listening to or streaming?
It could have something to dowith Lincoln and Douglas, or it
could have nothing to do withthat, but what might listeners
be interested in?
Jonathan White (31:11):
Well, I've actually been thinking a lot
about flag burning recentlybecause President Trump issued
an executive order on flagdesecration.
I was interviewed by both theHistory Channel and NPR last
week because I did an article onflag desecration during the
Civil War, which was somethingthat no one had ever really
(31:31):
looked at before.
So these reporters found me andinterviewed me.
So, if anyone's interested inthat, my articles online the NPR
and History Channel articlesthat quote me are online, but my
article is called we Didn'tstart the fire, which I'm sure
your audience knows what that'san allusion to and it's a.
It's a history of men and women, including teenage girls, who
(31:53):
desecrated American flags duringthe civil war and what happened
to them when they did it.
So I I've been revisiting thatsubject for the last week or so
because of the media attentionto it.
Scott Allen (32:04):
Wow, okay, I will put a link to those in the show
notes.
And, sir, as always, thank youso very, very much for your
wisdom, for your expertise, foryour passion For listeners.
Check out the show notes.
There's some links in there foryou and until next time,
jonathan, have a great one.
Thank you, sir.
Jonathan White (32:23):
Thank you.
Scott Allen (32:25):
The practical wisdom for me in this
conversation know your craft.
Wow, if you are a leader whoknows their craft, you have
character, some emotionalintelligence, you build
relationships.
You are well on your way andJonathan is an individual who
knows his craft, just an expert,and I had images of like, as he
(32:49):
said, kind of a treasure hunteror something like that.
He's discovering documents thathaven't been seen.
It's just so cool, so much fun.
Jonathan White, pi, everyone,as always, thank you so much for
checking in, appreciate you,take care, be well.
Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis podcast
Practical Wisdom for Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin.
I have a returning guest.
His bio's in the show notes.
If you don't know him by now,you haven't been, you've been
living in a cave.
I think it's Jonathan White.
I have a feeling I know whatwe're about to talk about today
too.
He is a professor of AmericanStudies at Christopher Newport
(00:21):
University, and I don't know ofanyone who knows more about
Abraham Lincoln than Jonathan.
I also don't know anyone who ismore prolific because, like
clockwork, on an annual basis,he has a new book that has come
out, exploring this topic thathe is so passionate about from a
new angle.
(00:41):
And, sir, thank you so much forrejoining me on the podcast
today.
What are we going to jump into?
What have you been working on?
I'm excited to hear.
Jonathan White (00:50):
Yeah well, thank you so much for having me back.
I will be publishing a book inabout three weeks called
Measuring the man the Writingsof Frederick Douglass on Abraham
Lincoln, and I had this ideaabout a year and a half ago to
pull together everything thatDouglas wrote about Lincoln or
said about Lincoln, both duringLincoln's lifetime and
afterwards, because these aretwo of the most important
(01:13):
leaders in the 19th century.
They're really two of the mostimportant leaders in all of
American history.
Wow.
And they didn't always getalong.
So Douglas was very critical ofLincoln.
Early on in Lincoln'spresidency came to really
appreciate what Lincoln did asthe leader of the US during the
Civil War, and so I wanted togive readers a sense of that
change over time in one book.
(01:34):
Bring it all together into oneplace.
Scott Allen (01:36):
Awesome, ok, well, let's jump in there.
So you have two men incrediblyinfluential in the landscape of
American history.
But you know Douglass wascritical of Lincoln, so take us
through a little bit of that.
What were some of hisperspectives and some of his
criticisms?
Jonathan White (01:55):
Yeah.
So it's rooted in their verydifferent views of politics and
the Constitution.
So Douglass believed that theUS Constitution was an
anti-slavery document, that, ifyou interpreted it correctly,
that it actually pointed towardsfreedom rather than slavery.
And that's actually a verydifferent view than most people
have today.
Most of us look back at theConstitution and we say, oh well
(02:16):
, it was a pro-slavery documentor a compromise with slavery.
Douglas said no, it's ananti-slavery document.
Lincoln had a more moderateview.
Douglass said no, it's ananti-slavery document.
Lincoln had a more moderate view.
His view was that theConstitution was a compromise
and that it had some pro-slaveryand some anti-slavery aspects
to it.
And so when Lincoln becamepresident, he believed that he
(02:36):
was bound by the ConstitutionAll presidents take an oath to
preserve, protect and defend it.
And he believed that theConstitution protected slavery
where the states wanted to haveit, whereas Douglass believed if
an anti-slavery president camein he could just kind of make
policies to get rid of slavery.
And so Douglass was reallydisappointed when Lincoln was
(02:58):
inaugurated and Lincoln saidthat he would protect slavery
where it already existed.
He just wouldn't allow it tospread into Western territories.
And Douglas was so angry withLincoln that he actually called
Lincoln the South's greatestslave hound and abolitionism's
worst enemy and he said theSouth has no reason to secede.
Lincoln's not going to doanything to touch slavery,
(03:18):
you've got nothing to be afraidof.
So for the first year and ahalf, douglas is really
frustrated that Lincoln seems tobe moving too slowly on
emancipation.
Scott Allen (03:30):
Now talk to me about the communication between
these two individuals.
Are they communicating thiswhole time or is it kind of, you
know, criticism from afar andthrough the press?
How's that working?
Jonathan White (03:43):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So they meet for the first timein August of 1863.
Douglass had his own newspaper,so he's writing op-eds.
I don't know if Lincoln everread any of the op-eds, but
Lincoln certainly knew whoFrederick Douglass was.
I mean, everyone knew whoFrederick Douglass was during
the Civil War.
And so for the first year and ahalf of the war, douglas is
(04:05):
writing these op-eds.
He's out giving speeches aroundthe country and many of these
writings and speeches are highlycritical of Abraham Lincoln.
When Lincoln issues theEmancipation Proclamation in
January of 1863, that authorizesblack men to enlist in the
Union Army and FrederickDouglass is thrilled about this
(04:26):
that black men are going to beable to flee from slavery or
free blacks in the North will beable to now join the army and
they will be able to fight notonly for union but also for
emancipation.
The problem is that blacksoldiers were not treated with
equality.
They got less pay than whitesoldiers.
They got worse uniforms andguns and equipment than white
soldiers.
(04:47):
They tend to have to do what iswhat's called fatigue duty,
which is what it sounds like.
It's hard labor that makes youtired.
And if all of that is not badenough, the Confederates created
a policy that black soldiersand their white commanding
officers, if they were capturedon the battlefield, would be
treated as slaves and as asslaves in insurrection, meaning
(05:09):
that they could be shot andkilled on the spot or sold into
bondage, even if they had beenfree their whole lives.
And so Douglas looks at thesituation and on the one hand he
sees progress, that now blackmen can serve in the military,
but on the other hand he knowsthat bullets don't discriminate
on account of the color of yourskin and a black soldier is just
(05:29):
as likely to be shot as a whitesoldier.
So they should have equality,especially equal pay.
And so these two guys met forthe first time in August of 1863
.
Douglas goes to the White Houseuninvited, unannounced.
And Douglas goes to the WhiteHouse uninvited, unannounced,
just shows up, and that probablysounds crazy to people today,
but actually back then anyonewho wanted to could go in and
(05:52):
just meet with the president.
I think we've talked about thatin the past.
And so Douglas pushes Lincolnon these issues of inequality
for black soldiers and Lincolnsort of explains you know,
you're right, and eventuallyblack soldiers will get equal
pay.
But he says essentially theconstituency in the North won't
(06:13):
allow for it right now and we'vegot to take steps deliberately
and slowly, gradually, in orderto sort of bring the public
along.
But eventually he says, blacksoldiers will get equal pay,
which eventually they do.
And Douglas goes away from thatmeeting somewhat disappointed
because he didn't get what hewanted but also appreciating the
(06:34):
political constraints andpolitical realities that Lincoln
as a president was facing.
They met a second time a yearlater and this time it was at
Lincoln's invitation.
And by August of 1864, lincolnwas convinced he would lose in
his bid for reelection and heactually invites Douglas to come
to the White House and theytalk about a way that they could
(06:55):
free as many slaves as possiblebefore Lincoln is out of office
.
And that meeting reallytransforms Douglas's view of
Lincoln because he sees inLincoln a heart that really
wants black freedom.
And their final meeting wasactually on the when Lincoln was
inaugurated.
For the second time in March of1865, douglas went to the white
(07:16):
house for the big party.
The police wouldn't let him in.
They eventually let him in andthey tried to very like,
surreptitiously lead him rightout of a window actually that
they had turned into an exit,and they try to very
surreptitiously lead him rightout of a window, actually that
they had turned into an exit.
And Douglas realizes whatthey're doing and he shouts to
somebody and says you know, tellMr Lincoln, I'm here.
And so they call to Lincoln andLincoln comes over and he says
(07:37):
oh, there's my friend Douglas.
And Lincoln asks him you know,what did you think of my
inaugural address?
And Douglas says something likeoh, you know, my opinion
doesn't matter, there's other,more important people here.
And Lincoln says there's no onewhose opinion I would value
more than yours.
And Douglas then turns to himand says it was a sacred effort
and it's a really incrediblemoment where these two guys are
(08:00):
connecting and talking.
And Lincoln wants to know whatdo you think, fred, about this
speech I just gave Lincoln?
Actually, shortly after thatinvited Douglas to tea and
Douglas turned him down becausehe had a speaking engagement and
Douglas's policy was if I'vebeen invited to give a lecture
somewhere, I'm going to upholdmy end of the bargain there.
(08:21):
Douglas later said if I hadknown he wasn't going to live
that much longer, I would havecanceled that lecture and gone
to see Lincoln for tea.
Scott Allen (08:30):
Wow.
So you know and this isn'tprobably a very simplistic
interpretation, but it soundslike the relationship and
Lincoln slowing down, pausing,listening, and then that
authentic dialogue with oneanother of look, I want to get
(08:51):
here.
These are some of theconstraints that we're
experiencing right now and thatchange, just initiating change,
is so incredibly difficult in alot of different contexts.
It sounds like in the earlieryears, douglas wanted change now
and just that's the onlysolution, but he gained a little
bit of an appreciation of whatthat actually takes.
(09:13):
But then I think it sounds likefrom what you're saying,
lincoln really began toempathize with some of his
perspectives and learned fromhim.
Is that?
Am I in the ballpark here?
Jonathan White (09:24):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely correct.
I did a book a couple of yearsago called A House Built by
Slaves African-American Visitorsto the Lincoln White House, and
I traced the stories as many asI could of black men and women
coming to the White House tomeet with Lincoln and to talk
about what was on their minds,and this was a story that had
been lost in history for 160years.
(09:47):
And what I found in all ofthose stories all but one really
, and there was a reason for theone.
But in almost all of thosestories Lincoln listened to the
people who came in and talked tohim and he was willing to
engage with them where they wereand to try to do what he could.
So one of the most profound isthat as a young man, lincoln had
(10:12):
opposed allowing black men tovote.
Martin Van Buren had actuallysupported black suffrage in New
York in the 1820s, and when VanBuren was running for president
in the 1840s, lincoln mocked theidea of allowing black men to
vote.
And what many people don't knowis that black men could vote in
most of the states at the timeof our founding.
(10:32):
That right to vote was takenaway in the 1820s and 30s and
40s.
And so Lincoln is kind ofwithin the majority view in the
1830s and 40s saying you know,black men shouldn't have the
right to vote.
But during the war he hasseveral delegations of black men
come and meet with him from theSouth and these include some
(10:54):
men who had escaped from slaveryfrom New Orleans, from Virginia
, from North Carolina, and theybring petitions and they point
out you know, we're serving ourcountry, we're paying taxes, we
used to have the right to vote,we should have it again.
And those delegations changedLincoln's mind.
He was willing to listen tothem and engage with them and
(11:15):
treat them with kindness andhumility and he then began
working behind the scenes topush for the right to vote for
black men.
In fact, the last speechLincoln ever gave, in April of
1865, he publicly called forblack men to have the right to
vote for black men.
In fact, the last speechLincoln ever gave, in April of
1865, he publicly called forblack men to have the right to
vote if they had served in thearmy or were educated.
And in the audience that nightwas John Wilkes Booth.
(11:36):
Wow, john Wilkes Booth saidthat means N-word citizenship.
By God, that'll be the lastspeech he ever gives, and four
days later Lincoln was dead, andso, in a way, lincoln's push
for black suffrage was the thingthat put John Wilkes Booth over
the edge, and it was blackdelegations meeting with Lincoln
that pushed Lincoln to come toaccept the idea of black
(11:59):
suffrage.
Scott Allen (12:01):
Well, what are a couple other insights from your
research in this most recentbook that maybe caught your
attention, maybe you didn't haveon your radar.
Jonathan White (12:11):
Yeah, my co-author and I actually
discovered a dozen documentsthat no one has ever seen, or no
one has seen for 160 years, Iguess, would be the more
accurate way to put it.
It's incredible how much isstill out there waiting to be
discovered.
And so we found eight newFrederick Douglass letters that
no one has seen before.
(12:32):
They were written to Britishcorrespondents, and I was able
to find them on microfilmnewspapers.
Actually because Douglass wouldwrite to these abolitionists in
England and what thoseabolitionists would do is they
would take out the private partsof the letters and then give
the public parts of the lettersto editors in England and then
(12:52):
the editors would publish them.
And some of this correspondencewas so radical that the British
readers actually didn't believethe letters were real.
And so I found editorials thatthe editors would write saying
we think these are legitimate,they're authentic and here's why
we think they are.
And what I did was I went toDouglass's papers at the Library
(13:14):
of Congress and I was able tofind the return correspondence.
So I was able to confirm thatthese letters were real and
legitimate.
But they give a new perspectiveon Douglass, I think, as a
political leader, in a couple ofways.
One is, douglass was willing tosay things to the British
audiences that he never wouldhave said to an American
(13:37):
audience.
Scott Allen (13:38):
Really.
Jonathan White (13:39):
Yeah.
So some of them were verycritical of Lincoln during the
war, like even more criticalthan what he was saying in the
United States at the time.
But the craziest one came rightafter Lincoln's assassination.
So Lincoln's assassinated, shoton April 14th 1865, dies the
(13:59):
morning of April 15th and theUnited States immediately has an
outpouring of grief andDouglass gave a couple of
speeches in Rochester, new York,where he was living, where he,
you know, talked about his griefand his friendship with Lincoln
and how well they knew oneanother and how wonderful
Lincoln was.
That was the message Douglasssent to American audiences.
(14:23):
He sent a very different one toBritish ones and he wrote a
letter on April 20th 1865, toone of these British
abolitionists saying you know,yes, it's awful that Lincoln has
been assassinated, but itactually might be better for the
cause of black freedom thatLincoln was killed Because
Lincoln as a leader, he wantedthe United States reunited.
(14:46):
His goal was to bringex-Confederates back into the
Union, so he wanted them torepent of their sins, to get rid
of slavery but then come backinto the United States.
And Lincoln wanted essentiallywhite Confederates and black
Southerners to come into theUnion together with political
rights Wow.
And Black.
Southerners to come into theUnion together with political
(15:08):
rights.
Wow, Now for someone likeDouglas, that's terrifying to
think about ex-Confederatesregaining political rights and
potentially political power.
So in this letter I discoveredto a British abolitionist,
Douglas says you know, it'sterrible that Lincoln was killed
, but Andrew Johnson mightactually be a better president
for Black Americans in thepost-war period.
And Douglas points out you know, both Lincoln and Johnson were
(15:30):
born into slave states.
They were both born intopoverty.
They're both self-made men, butLincoln moved out of a slave
state as a young man, whereasAndrew Johnson, the new
president, stayed in the slavestate, so he really understands
how terrible the slave power is.
He's going to punish theex-Confederates, whereas Lincoln
would have forgiven them.
And that shows us one like as arhetorical strategy, that
(15:54):
Douglass treats differentaudiences differently, which you
could do in that era, becauseit's not like videos can go
viral and then, everyone seeswhat you said to a private
audience.
But then it also shows us justhow focused Douglass was on
Black freedom and Black equality, that, as devastated as he was
to lose Lincoln, he recognizedthat losing Lincoln might be
(16:16):
best for his people in the longrun.
Scott Allen (16:23):
Wow, I view you as like a treasure hunter of sorts,
right?
I mean you're finding documentsthat haven't been read for 160
years.
You said.
Jonathan White (16:32):
Yeah, I've always viewed being a historian
as being a detective.
And the other fun thing aboutbeing a historian is you get to
read other people's mail andtheir diaries and so you know
you find one half of thecorrespondence.
And then you search's mail andtheir diaries and so you know
you find one half of thecorrespondence and then you
search until you find the otherhalf.
And that's the fun part aboutit.
Scott Allen (16:51):
Wow, wow.
Okay, so a couple otherinsights that stood out for you.
I mean, this is so cool thatyou are literally uncovering
documents that haven't been seenin that long.
That's so much fun.
And again, I think it's alsojust a very, very useful insight
that, to your point, you can'tgo viral, so you can communicate
(17:14):
in different ways to differentaudiences Fascinating,
absolutely.
Jonathan White (17:20):
So a couple of other things that really stand
out in some of these writings.
One is that you know, abrahamLincoln and Frederick Douglass
both came out of poverty.
Now granted very differentexperiences.
Where Douglass was born intoslavery, lincoln obviously was
born free, but Douglas reallyappreciated what poverty did for
(17:41):
Lincoln in his development as aleader, and that's very
different from other people howthey viewed him.
So WEB Du Bois, who was, youknow, harvard educated very
prominent black leader in theearly late 19th, early 20th
century black leader in theearly late 19th, early 20th
century.
He looked down upon lincoln forlincoln's poor upbringing.
So there's a very famous and, Ithink, somewhat funny quote
(18:02):
from web du bois where he saidabraham lincoln was a southern
poor white of illegitimate birth, poorly educated and unusually
ugly, awkward and ill-dressed.
He likes muddy stories and wasa politician down to his toes.
So for someone like dubois andby the way, lincoln was not of
illegitimate birth, that waskind of a rumor that floated in
(18:24):
lincoln's lifetime, um, but forsomeone like dubois who was very
highly educated, he looked downon lincoln who who described
his own education with one wordand that was defective, whereas
for Douglass he reallyappreciated the fact that
Lincoln was able to rise frompoor, like a poor background,
(18:47):
and make himself into a greatperson.
And Douglass talked about, youknow, for instance, the right to
vote which we talked about alittle bit ago.
When Lincoln came out andpublicly advocated for black
suffrage in April of 1865, hehad limited suffrage in mind.
So those black men who hadserved in the army or who were
(19:09):
educated yes, now, for no othermen in the country at that time
were there limitations like that.
There was universal whitemanhood suffrage.
If you were a man who was white, who was at least 18, you could
vote in any state, yep.
And so some people criticizedLincoln for saying well, let's
limit it to those who haveserved or those who are educated
(19:31):
.
For Douglas there was noproblem in that.
And Douglas said that Lincolnlearned his politics through
splitting rails, like throughchopping down trees, cutting up
the wood into rails.
And what Douglas said was youput the thin edge of the wedge
in first and then you strike atit until it splits the rail and
the thick edge gets in.
(19:51):
Wow, edge gets in and that wasDouglas.
Douglas's way of saying.
Like I recognize, lincoln as aleader can't do anything he
wants instantaneously.
He can't just snap his fingersand get what he wants.
He has to persuade theelectorate.
Hey, let's do something wehaven't done in a long time.
Let's give black men the rightto vote.
(20:12):
Most white northerners aregoing to oppose that.
So what do you do?
You start with the thin edge.
You say you know what Men whohave served in the army, they,
they have fought for citizenship.
They deserve the right to vote.
Let's give it to them andeventually the country will come
to see that all black menshould be part of this body
(20:32):
politic.
Yeah, there's another one that'svery famous, but we include I
mean we included everything inthe book.
And in 1876, on the anniversaryof Lincoln's assassination,
douglas dedicated a statue inWashington DC.
And this statue is verycontroversial today because it
(20:53):
shows Lincoln kind of hoveringwith his arm outstretched over a
black man who is rising up outof bondage.
And so, since Lincoln is sortof standing and the black man is
kneeling, but rising it's,today the statue has gotten a
lot of criticism.
I think it's an importantstatue because the money for it
was raised entirely byAfrican-Americans who after the
(21:17):
Civil War, after Lincoln'sassassination, said we want to
do something to thank AbrahamLincoln and show our public
appreciation for Lincoln.
And Douglass was invited todeliver the speech dedicating
the statue, and it's a veryfamous speech, and in that
speech Douglas recounted all ofthe things that Lincoln had done
(21:40):
during the Civil War that hadfrustrated him as a radical, the
things like where Lincoln hadbeen too slow in pushing for
black freedom or for blackrights.
And he in that speech actuallysays that Lincoln was
preeminently the white man'spresident and entirely devoted
to the welfare of white men.
So Douglas sort of says likethis is how we thought about
(22:01):
Lincoln at the time.
But then he pivots and and inthe speech he then takes a
different perspective and herecognizes that Lincoln was, as
a leader, didn't haveomnipotence he.
He had to think about what thewhite electorate in the north
wanted or what it thought, andthat Lincoln steps in pushing
(22:25):
towards emancipation in the wayhe did and bringing the public
along with him was, in the end,the best way to do it and.
Douglas essentially concedesthat if Lincoln had done what
Douglass wanted, if Lincoln hadbeen too radical too early, that
it would have lost the CivilWar and emancipation wouldn't
(22:46):
have happened anyway.
And Douglass essentially came toadmit that Lincoln's approach
had been the right one.
And Douglass has thisincredible line where he says
had been the right one.
And Douglass has thisincredible line where he says,
viewed from the genuineabolition ground, mr Lincoln
seemed tardy, cold, dull andindifferent, like when we looked
at him back then we thoughtwhat's wrong with this guy?
(23:07):
He's the South's greatestfriend here.
But then he says, but measuringhim by the sentiment of his
country, a sentiment he wasbound as a statesman to consult.
He was swift, zealous, radicaland determined.
And I think that's the reallegacy of these two guys is that
(23:28):
as leaders they came to learnfrom one another and they
started off in very differentplaces, came to learn from one
another and they started off invery different places.
But they both wanted verysimilar things and they they
were able to sort of see howeach one had something to teach
the other and ultimately theygot to the goal, which was the
emancipation proclamation andthen the 13th amendment, forever
(23:50):
ending slavery.
Scott Allen (23:51):
Yeah, how does the story of Douglas, kind of you
know post Lincoln's death, talka little bit about that and then
we'll kind of wind down.
Sure, he stayed active.
He stayed kind of really,really, really involved in the
movement throughout speeches.
Jonathan White (24:11):
For the rest of his life he was touring around
the country.
For the rest of his life hewrote his third autobiography
after, in the 1880s.
So he wrote threeautobiographies one in the 1840s
, one in the 1850s and one inthe 1880s.
He was always writing fornewspapers, editorials, those
(24:39):
sort of things.
In fact he died on his way togo give a speech and I highly
recommend, if the audience hasnever been, next time you go to
Washington DC, go to theFrederick Douglass home.
They do an extraordinary tour.
It's a national park site andI'm going to spoil it here, but
I'm assuming most of youraudience is probably at least 30
.
So if I'm spoiling somethingthat's been around for 150 years
, that's not on me.
If you go to the Douglas home,you do the tour and at the very
(25:02):
end they bring you back out tothe entryway and they tell you
you know, frederick Douglas gavespeeches for the rest of his
life fighting for black equality.
And as you're standing there inthe foyer they say and he fell
and died right here as he wasgetting ready to go out and get
in his carriage for anotherspeech, and I think it was going
to be a speech for women'srights in Washington DC, if
(25:24):
memory serves correct.
And so you can go and kind ofcapture what Douglas's life was
like by walking through his home.
Like by walking through hishome, and then at the end you're
kind of reminded that you had.
This guy fought for thepolitical rights of not only
black men but black and whitewomen as well for the entirety
of his career.
Scott Allen (25:45):
And how did it work out with the president after
Lincoln?
Jonathan White (25:49):
Yeah, that is not a happy story.
So Andrew Johnson comes in aspresident and, as I pointed out
before, douglas had great hopesfor him.
And I should say there wasreason for Douglas to have high
hopes.
So as the military governor ofTennessee in 1864, andrew
Johnson goes out and gives aspeech to a black audience in
(26:12):
Nashville and he says I will beyour Moses.
Like Andrew Johnson, the guywho's as racist as they come
says to a black audience I willbe your Moses.
And in fact he ended slavery inTennessee in 1864 because
Tennessee had been exempted fromthe Emancipation Proclamation.
And at the end of the war, whenLincoln is assassinated, andrew
(26:34):
Johnson says treason must bemade odious.
And so Frederick Douglassthought Andrew Johnson was going
to be this leader who was goingto punish ex-Confederates and
give black men the right to vote.
Well, douglass goes to theWhite House in February of 1866
and he meets with Andrew Johnsonand he pushes Johnson on black
(26:58):
suffrage and he kind of pointsto Lincoln and he says you know,
lincoln supported black votingrights for for black soldiers,
you should follow that lead.
And Johnson is is dismissiveand condescending.
And after Douglas and hisfriends leave, johnson says you
know, he's nothing but an N-word.
Who would slit a white man'sthroat if he could?
And a few days later, frederickDouglass went to the US Capitol
(27:23):
and gave a speech in the Houseof Representatives chamber about
Lincoln.
It was for Lincoln's birthdayand as part of that speech he
said and this was alluding toJohnson he said that Lincoln
didn't begin as a Moses and endas a pharaoh.
In other words, moses is theleader who leads the Israelites
(27:46):
out of Israel, and AndrewJohnson has said I will be your
Moses.
But now Douglas can see Johnsonknows the pharaoh, the guy who
wants to keep black peopleenslaved, can see Johnson knows
the Pharaoh, the guy who wantsto keep black people enslaved.
And and so Douglas points outin the speech which we have in
the book, lincoln is not likeAndrew Johnson if he had been
and and in a sense, like that'sDouglas acknowledging his view
(28:06):
in that letter that I discoveredwas wrong, and that that Andrew
Johnson was not the leader hehad hoped he would.
Yeah, it's Measuring the man.
The Writings of FrederickDouglass on Abraham Lincoln.
Scott Allen (28:25):
Okay, perfect.
Thank you, sir.
What are you looking to now asyour next project?
I know you have your eye onsomething right.
Jonathan White (28:32):
Yeah, so I've got a couple things in the works
.
I just finished a collection ofwritings, firsthand accounts of
Abraham Lincoln.
That's with the UniversityPress right now out for peer
review.
I'm writing a photographic bookabout the Lincoln home.
So if your audience knows theImages of America books that you
often find in gift shops,there's none about the Lincoln
(28:54):
home.
And that's one of the mostmagical places for me, where you
go and you walk through thehouse and you can just envision
Lincoln there, the family man,the real live person,
interacting with his kids, withhis wife, with his friends, and
so that one I'm almost finished.
I have to get that to thepublisher this fall.
(29:14):
And then the big project I'mworking on is a history of a
former slave in Arkansas whomurdered his former owner in the
process of rescuing hisdaughters from slavery, and it's
a very powerful story about afather's love and his willing to
do anything he could to savehis girls.
And it connects to Lincoln.
(29:35):
I'll give a little bit of aspoiler here.
It connects to Lincoln becausethe father and his friend ended
up getting tried in a militarycourt for murder.
They were found guilty and theywere sentenced to be executed,
but because it was a militarycourt.
They couldn't be executedwithout presidential approval,
and so the trial transcript wassent to Washington DC, where
(29:57):
Lincoln had to review it, andLincoln overturned the
conviction would not allow theseblack men to be executed, and
Lincoln's rationale was theEmancipation Proclamation had
declared these girls free, and afather has a right to rescue
his daughters from illegalbondage, and so it's a really
incredible story.
I've been sitting on itactually for about five years.
(30:18):
I've written about 20,000 words, but I haven't touched it for
about two years and I'm just nowgetting back to it, so
hopefully in a year or two I'llbe able to come back and talk
about that.
Scott Allen (30:30):
Well, you have an open invitation anytime, sir.
Oh, thanks, I am so thankfulfor your time today and your
wisdom is always.
I love our time togetherbecause I'm always learning and
I just have great respect foryour deep passion and knowledge
in this space.
I mean, it's just so much funto listen to you speak on this
(30:52):
topic.
As you know, I always end outthe episode by asking you what's
caught your attention in recenttimes.
So what have you been readingor listening to or streaming?
It could have something to dowith Lincoln and Douglas, or it
could have nothing to do withthat, but what might listeners
be interested in?
Jonathan White (31:11):
Well, I've actually been thinking a lot
about flag burning recentlybecause President Trump issued
an executive order on flagdesecration.
I was interviewed by both theHistory Channel and NPR last
week because I did an article onflag desecration during the
Civil War, which was somethingthat no one had ever really
(31:31):
looked at before.
So these reporters found me andinterviewed me.
So, if anyone's interested inthat, my articles online the NPR
and History Channel articlesthat quote me are online, but my
article is called we Didn'tstart the fire, which I'm sure
your audience knows what that'san allusion to and it's a.
It's a history of men and women, including teenage girls, who
(31:53):
desecrated American flags duringthe civil war and what happened
to them when they did it.
So I I've been revisiting thatsubject for the last week or so
because of the media attentionto it.
Scott Allen (32:04):
Wow, okay, I will put a link to those in the show
notes.
And, sir, as always, thank youso very, very much for your
wisdom, for your expertise, foryour passion For listeners.
Check out the show notes.
There's some links in there foryou and until next time,
jonathan, have a great one.
Thank you, sir.
Jonathan White (32:23):
Thank you.
Scott Allen (32:25):
The practical wisdom for me in this
conversation know your craft.
Wow, if you are a leader whoknows their craft, you have
character, some emotionalintelligence, you build
relationships.
You are well on your way andJonathan is an individual who
knows his craft, just an expert,and I had images of like, as he
(32:49):
said, kind of a treasure hunteror something like that.
He's discovering documents thathaven't been seen.
It's just so cool, so much fun.
Jonathan White, pi, everyone,as always, thank you so much for
checking in, appreciate you,take care, be well.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.