Don’t Stay in Your Lane: A Conversation with Cynthia Pong

Episode Transcript
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Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin.
Wherever you are in the world,today I have Cynthia Pong and
she is a JD and she is anaward-winning executive coach
and speaker who empowers womenof color leaders to advance
their careers into positions ofpower.
A Forbes contributor andLinkedIn top voice for job

(00:20):
search and career, she has beenfeatured in HBR, the Atlantic
and on NBC, cbs, npr and more.
As founder and CEO of EmbraceChange, cynthia leads an elite
all-BIPOC team who providesspecialized coaching and
training programs forhigh-performing women of color
up to the C-suite, equipped withCynthia's strategic guidance.

(00:42):
Her clients break down barriers, lead with authenticity and
have collectively negotiatedover $750,000 in salary
increases.
Her Anthem Award-winningLeadership Accelerator program
has propelled women of color toprestigious fellowships,
promotions and top graduateprogram admissions admissions.
Cynthia's book Don't Stay inyour Lane the Career Change

(01:04):
Guide for Women of Color, hascemented her as a foremost voice
on career advancement,negotiation and thought
leadership.
Cynthia, what is not in yourbio that everyone needs to know
about you?
What's not there?

Cynthia Pong (01:17):
Oh my goodness.
Thank you, scott.
And it's true there's a numberof things there, but I've come
to embrace that I'm more of likea maximalist style, like
there's a lot of things thathave a lot of interest, and you
know, I feel like as someone whois a former academic my father
was a professor and I feel likeour family is like super nerds,
so like I feel like you mightappreciate that.
But what is not in there is Ilove Rottweilers, I'm obsessed

(01:50):
with Rottweilers and I want oneone day, but I know I don't
currently live a lifestyle thatreally supports that, and I'm a
middle child, which I thinkexplains some of my oppositional
defiance.

I love that.
Oh, that's great, and I can seebehind you.
You have a record player, soyou must enjoy music.

Yeah, I do.
I want to say I didn't get intovinyl at the time that, like
you know, when it had thiscomeback or whatever.
But like, truthfully, thatprobably is how it is, although
that is like a hand-me-down formy husband's, aunt's record
player or whatever.
So like not just doing it forlooks.

Well, my aunt reached out to me recently and
she said you know we're gettingrid of my record collection, do
you want it?
And so she sent me a list ofall of her albums.
So I have a lot of Hall Oates,fleetwood Mac waiting for me in
Fort Dodge, iowa.

Oh, I love it.
Oh my gosh.
I hope you have ample timeblocked out to really like go
through that and make some harddecisions.

Exactly Well, I'm excited for our conversation
today.
You know, when we first kind ofconnected.
I love this phrasing ofbreaking barriers, authentic
leadership and kind ofactionable strategic ways of
thinking about advancing theircareers, getting the promotion,

(03:07):
whatever it is, in an authenticway.
I mean.
That really intrigued me.
So bring us into your world alittle bit.
How do you think about thistopic?
What are some highlights?

You know I was thinking about this and at this
point I sort of have lost track.
But I think personally, I'vecoached over 350 women of color,
mostly women of color.
There've been some women ingeneral, some men of color, some
men in there, but that's kindof the numbers we're looking at.
But in the last couple of yearsI've really had to cut that
back because we've had, you know, we have an agency of BIPOC

(03:38):
coaches now and also running thebusiness and the B2B side.
You know, it's theentrepreneurial life.
So, as much as I love it, I'vehad to cut back.
But I was thinking over that andkind of like okay, what are the
highlights, what are the themesthat we've seen?
And this is both a highlight anda theme and also, I would say,
just a collectively like agrowth area, because so many of

(03:59):
our clients at Embrace Changeare the first or the only you
know still and it's 2025.
So they're the first person wholooks like them, who comes from
a background like theirs, whohas their set of lived
experiences, who's gotten tothat level of leadership, for
example, that VP, svp, thatC-suite level position,
executive director, what haveyou?
So what that looks or feelslike, to give folks kind of

(04:23):
maybe a little more fleshingthis out is like you know, just
imagine you're looking up theorg chart and you don't see
anyone who really looks like you.
Then you manage to get to thatlevel and then you look around
and there's no one who lookslike you, or maybe there's one
or two, but there's thatdistinct feeling that you're in
a place that's not like defaultfolks who have your background

(04:44):
and things.
So there are costs to that andI think if we're not careful
internalizing some or overassigning meaning to what that
means and internalizing some ofwhat that might mean I know I'm
keeping a little academic rightnow, but we can break it down.

Yeah.

That can really hurt us in kind of the mind game
quote unquote of it all.
It can wear on your confidence,it can wear on your self-esteem
.
It can.
In the worst case it can leadto a self-fulfilling prophecy of
not performing at your best.
Even in the best case, you'rerunning more.
I think of it as like morecylinders have to fire in your

(05:21):
brain than if you weren'tdealing with this situation
where you're not kind of like inthe mainstream community and
background Because there's a lotof what our clients are doing
is like okay, let's say you'rein a board meeting or something
like, and you want to saysomething like okay, well,
should I say it or not?
What is the blowback if I do sayit?
Because you know XYZ folksmight not really be on board or

(05:43):
they might dismiss what I say,even the questions.
That's taking mental load foryou to run them.
And then it's like okay, I amgoing to say it.
How do I say it?
Do I say it now?
There's so much analyticalthinking that happens, and so
think about having to do thatbefore you even get to the point
of like the contribution.
Does the contribution get made?
I'm going to pause therebecause I know it was a lot, but
that's sort of one area, oneentry point.

Well, so you reminded me of this quote.
I forgot who said this quote,but it was regarding Fred
Astaire.
And so the individual said youknow, sure, fred Astaire is
great, but you got to remember,ginger Rogers did everything he
did backwards and in high heels,yes.
And so there's just differentlayers and complexities that
these individuals areexperiencing on any number of
levels, that eking up thatprocessing time, where, if me, a

(06:29):
white male who is fairlyrepresentative of quote, unquote
, the fortune 500 leadershipstructure, I once did a women's
leader development program withthe YWCA.
It was wonderful and I learnedso much.
Because one participant saidwhen I go in my closet in the
morning, it takes me about 15minutes to figure out what I'm
going to wear.
And I was like, really Well,why is that?

(06:49):
And she said, well, I want tolook trendy, but I don't want to
look overly suggestive, so ittakes time.
In that moment I was like, ohmy gosh, like this took less
than a second zero thought.
And another participant saidyou know, hey, all of my male
counterparts in the C-suite havestay-at-home spouses who, at

(07:10):
the drop of a hat, they can goto China.
I can't Both work and I don'thave that.
So it was just these differentcomplexities that I'd never
thought of that were so powerful.

And I think what you're describing in a way, and
that the leader at the YMCA orYWCA.
What they're describing is thedouble bind that women in
general phase, and then forwomen of color, it's a triple
bind because it's theintersectionality of the race
plus gender, but the double bindbeing, of course, like you know
, she wants to dress, to projecta certain image and bring a

(07:46):
certain.
Does that fit the definition ofleadership or whatnot that
she's being tasked to fit into?
And there's that thing forwomen in general where it's like
you're either perceived asbeing nice and you're well liked
, or you're perceived as being acompetent leader that people
will listen to.
So if you constantly have tojuggle those and those are often

(08:06):
put in an antithetical way,like if you're nice, then you're
not a good leader, if you're agood leader, then you won't be
nice because that's not going toget the work done.
So, yeah, like that's whatyou're describing.
It's those added considerations, burdens, however you want to
look at it.

Well, and I imagine that's why having a coach can
be so incredibly beneficial.
I've had a therapist for 17years that I speak with every
two weeks.
I have a mentor that I speakwith every two weeks, my wife
and I walk every morning, andhaving thinking partners that
can help you process with aneducated mind probably all of
that in a narrative it'sinvaluable.

Yes, oh, my gosh, it's like you're reading my
notes because we had talkedabout okay, you know you want me
to talk about some themes thatwe've seen in our work around
breaking barriers and authenticleadership, and then, of course,
actionable strategies, whichI'm really about it in our work,
both on our organizational, b2bside and B2C, because I am so
trained as a lawyer that lawyerbrain of problem solving dies

(09:05):
hard.
I'll just say so.
When Embrace Change doessomething, we're there to make
an impact and help solveproblems, whether it's at an
organizational level or not.
So I was really into theactionable strategies and one of
them was the individual support.
So when you're at a high andI'll just say elite level of
leadership, you need anexecutive coach.

(09:26):
At that point your time is sovaluable and your most scarce
and valuable resource.
You need to know that you'reinvesting it well.
So that one-on-one tailoredstrategic support from executive
coach like that would have beenmy number one strategy, paired
with the personal board ofadvisors which you've just kind
of laid out, your version ofthat, the thinking partners,
because also your exec coach isnot going to be all to.

(09:50):
You know every need that youhave.
I love therapy.
I think it's absolutely crucialfor the world and times that we
live in.
You know, I have had so much ofit but, like, coaching is not
therapy and it's not intended tobe, and so having all those
things I think you know is Ilove that you shared that,
because it just jumps right tothe actionable part of this.

Well, I think at times we have.
So one of my favorite quotes iswho you are is how you lead,
and so that's my lived history,that's my personality, that's my
value system, that's mymindsets, that's any number of
different elements of me, and Ibring that to that position of
authority.

(10:29):
And if part of who I am is, toyour point, always kind of
second guessing and questioningand I don't have some outlet to
help me process that, I think toyour point, you're in some ways
this might be a little tooharsh, setting yourself up for
failure.
That might be too much, butyou're certainly not accessing
really, really tangibleresources that could make a

(10:52):
difference for you.
You know what I mean.

No, I do know what you mean and I've been a New
Yorker for however many decades,that doesn't feel tough to me.
To be honest, I don't think wehave to apply such heavy
criticism and judgment to likeeverything, and I think that's
actually one example of how it'sreally hard to get to that
place where you can be anauthentic leader when you are a
woman of color or a woman orperson of color, because

(11:17):
societally there's a lot ofmessaging that trains us to be
overly critical of ourselves andpeople.
We can constantly go throughthe daily process of breaking
cycles, even breakinggenerational cycles, and before
we hit record we were talkingabout hard conversations and how
to have them.
Perhaps the hardestconversation of all is to have
the honest conversation withyourself about how we can

(11:38):
improve, what gaps there mightbe, where we might be holding
ourselves because we are beingso overly critical and
judgmental of ourselves.
And one framework that I teachin our leadership accelerator
and also in some of ourorganizational work you know we
partnered with a large publichealth organization and your
statewide agencies and stuff isthis framework of C care, which

(12:00):
is just the letter C, hyphen, c,a, r, e, and that first C
stands for compassion, which isboth compassion for yourself and
also compassion for otherpeople.
And I'll backtrack a bit toexplain how I came up with this
framework in coaching so manywomen of color, because I kept
noticing the gap between themand where they wanted to be with
their leadership or theircareer goals.

(12:21):
It was not a skills gap, it wasnot some sort of deficit in
that regard.
It was really.
They were so hard on themselvesthat they weren't allowing
themselves to try something new,to experiment, to make a
mistake, and part of that isbecause the stakes are so high
at that level and for who youare.

(12:42):
Maybe you're supportingmultiple family units, maybe
you're not only raising yourfamily.
You got to send money back home, you've got a cousin who you
know, like those are all thethings that happen for our
community.
So I understand it and alsothat's why I put it so front and
center in the framework,because it's easy to lose
oneself, and what you said aboutwho you are is how you lead.

(13:02):
That perfectly aligns with tome.
That's the key to authenticleadership.
Lead that perfectly aligns withto me, that's the key to
authentic leadership.
You have to make sure you don'tlose yourself and you don't
self-alienate or get alienatedfrom what you're actually trying
to do, your real values, youroriginal mission with your
career, and but as you climbcertain ladders, the risk of

(13:23):
that happening is everincreasing the risk of that
happening is ever increasing.

Yeah, and especially, I think, for a lot
of C-level executives.
You're at a point now where youhave your children in school
maybe it's a private school, youhave a mortgage, you have I
mean there's added pressuresthat kind of get layered onto.
I think it's tragic inorganizational life because you
then have a number of people whoare trying to stay safe, afraid
to speak up, even when they seesomething incredibly valuable

(13:52):
that might be counter towhatever narrative is.

Yep.

And I think organizations are missing out on
really important mind shares.
Yes, it's tragic If that leaderis not creating the
psychological safety.
Well, now you're.
It's cooked, it's done.

Yes, oh my God, so many words that I want to say
all at once now, becausepsychological safety is
something I think about and weweave into our work so much,
because that is foundational.
And I also, though, love thatyou pointed out the missing out
on the important mind share ofthat loss and inefficiency,
because I'm also like a realefficiency person of like yo,

(14:32):
what are we doing?
And, to be clear also,everything that I'm saying, even
though I'm saying it from theperspective of like on the B2C
side, we specialize in workingwith a particular community it
applies to everybody.
I want that to be like clear,and I believe that we can all
learn from everything, eveneveryday things that happen
around me, like I bet you andyour wife on certain walks in
the mornings, like you'veprobably thought of really

(14:54):
powerful metaphors and thingsyou've learned in your talks and
keynotes later on from, like arandom observation of I don't
know a duck on a pond orsomething right.
Like, yes, I think we can learnfrom everything, and it does
frustrate me when it's like, ohmy God, your people are your
most valuable asset.
Even with the onslaught of AIand Gen AI, I still you know the

(15:17):
people are going to get thework done at the end of the day.
So like why are we not settingeveryone up to succeed?
It's going to help everything,including the bottom line, yeah.

And again, even for your most diehard of leaders,
the bottom line.
Yes, because we've all been inthe meeting where no one spoke
up.
But you could look around theroom and see the seven people
who disagreed with what wasbeing put into motion but didn't
say a thing.
And just think of the time, thedollars, the energy.
Now the message gets cascadeddown three levels.

(15:51):
They know it's a bad idea.

Yeah, right, I know.

And then we wonder well, why are you know, only a
third of people going to workand feeling engaged right now?
Well, yes it kind of starts atthe top and are you creating
that space where we can havethose conversations?

I know it definitely cascades down and it
ripples out because that's gonnahit brand reputation.
You know what I mean.
Like how do you stop that?
Like embarrassing pr disasterthat didn't need to happen if
somebody would have told you youknow which maybe they would
have.
And you know psychologicalsafety, it's such a I mean I

(16:31):
love talking about it and it wason another recent podcast where
we like that was like the topicor whatever.
So it's so important and Ithink still there's a relative
dearth of training,understanding, basic awareness
around what it is, and then evenmore like okay, we want that,
but like how, you know the howgets really tricky because it's

(16:53):
a lot of things.
You know what?

I mean, it is the leader's behaviors, it's not
only their words, but it's alsohow they back that up and how
they behave.
I once had a leader kind ofsnap at me when I and it was a
very well-intended, honestcomment Totally cool for you to
disagree with it, get it.
But the snappy behavior.

And that's what, in a legal context, you call a
chilling effect, you know, whichI think everyone can understand
.
But that's right, that onething.
It's like the Maya Angelouquote.
That's like people forget whatyou say.
They'll forget what you did,but they'll never forget how you
made them feel.
I only asterisk that with, likeI believe we're all in charge
of our emotions and that's likeour job to regulate that.

(17:34):
And also, that was real, whatyou experienced and what
everyone else, then also thelesson they took away from that.
And I think, yeah, words,behaviors also.
You know this is a little bitwhatnot, whatnot, but this
podcast is for nieces, so I feellike you know we can go there
like it's the energy that youbring to us you know, which
stems out of the who you are.

(17:55):
And, yeah, I do think that allthose things combined is really
critical and we're all on ourprocess of you know,
internalizing and learning howto provide more psychological
safety, if that's our goal, yeah, you know.

So what are a couple other strategies that you
often talk about with clients,or what are some other things
that have worked for you asyou're coaching?
I'm super interested.

Yeah.
So you know we talked aboutfirst kind of the like getting
the support, which I'll justflesh the kind of personal
advisory board one out a littlebit, because I think sometimes
people are like, ok, great,cynthia, that sounds awesome,
but like now, what?
Like how do I actually actionon this?
So you know, I was thinkingabout our conversation.
Scott and I was like, ok, soideally I would recommend that

(18:44):
one's personal advisory board belike a mix of people.
I think sometimes people arelike, okay, well, everyone needs
to be in such and such highpowered position and they all
need to be like my mentors.
And I'm kind of like no, Ithink you need a more
diversified board of advisors,especially in the times that
we're living in.
So I would almost think aboutit as like a board that you

(19:06):
would recommend for acorporation or a nonprofit, and
like you want the mix of skillsets.
So think about in that context,you probably want someone who
has a financial background.
I said you want a strategist.
So maybe that is lawyer ormaybe it's not, but like I put
finance first and foremost, eventhough it might be like kind of
a wacky answer, but wheneconomic power is power, you

(19:30):
know like you need someone whohas sort of that background, and
I think a lot of us, if you'renot in finance, like it just
feels like that whole area couldbe a black box, so every kind
of role could be a separateperson, or some people could
bring multiple at once.
So this is just kind of goingby this one particular lens, so
you've got legal, you've gotfinance.
Buy this one particular lens,so you've got legal, you've got
finance.
You have strategy of opscommunication.

(19:53):
Yeah, Even if you think aboutit as like crisis comes like.
I was meeting with a colleaguethe other day who was an expert
in the crisis communicationsarea, like in the foundations
world, and I was like, wow, Ican really see why this is a
crucial, such a needed component, right, where one hot mic
moment, one thing you put out onLinkedIn, it could become so

(20:14):
much if it's done the wrong way.
So I think that skillset andthen finally somebody and you
know this is where kind of likeyou're in my overlap is like the
leadership piece, so like doyou have someone who's really
familiar in leadership in arelated industry to yours and
then someone who's intraindustry, so someone who's
within your industry but canalso be a champion and, again,

(20:34):
like these kind of needs androles could be filled by
multiple people or one person.
There could be overlap and it'sa work in progress, but those
are kind of like what I thoughtwere sort of the must haves to
ideally think about, and ifyou're someone who already has
all those components for you,can you serve as one of those
for someone else?
Yeah, you know, each one toeach one, like forward, give it

(20:58):
back, et cetera, because,especially for women of color,
I'll say like we tend to be overmentored and under sponsored,
under championed, so like it'sthat we get a lot of advice,
often even unsolicited, but lessaction in terms of promotions,
connections, nominations,amplification, financial support
, high profile mediaopportunities, that type of

(21:19):
thing.
So that kind of just bottomsout.
Just to finish out, that secondstrategy of gathering your
co-thought leaders, again, tolike make sure you challenge any
inner narratives and dialoguesthat might not be serving you.
Then the third one I wasthinking of is this is a little
more core level, but I thinkagain, with this podcast being

(21:42):
for nieces and that being like Ihad to look it up, by the way,
I'm a nerd, but I had to, like Iwas like I really got to dive
into this because I'm cool.
Like you know, it's aboutpractical wisdom, right?
But, like you know, I looked upanother definition.
It was like wisdom anddetermining the ends and the
means of attaining them.
Oh wow, I hadn't heard that one, that's good.
Yeah, and I was like, well,that's exactly the process of a

(22:05):
lot of this coaching or trainingor speaking.
Work right Is like what is yourgoal and then how do you get
there?
And just practical, like thepractical application of it.
So this one it might feel lesspractical, but I feel like it's
so important to your earlierpoint of who we are is how we
lead.
There's one pain point potholethat I see over and over again

(22:26):
in our clients, but also when wework with organizations too.
Is that that pivot point betweenwhen you become the manager,
the supervisor, but really likethat's separate and distinct
from leading as well, but likeif you're interested in actually
leading, which I think is avery effective way to be a
supervisor or manager, we haveto change from doing to leading,

(22:47):
because a lot of times peopleare promoted and we talked about
this a bit in the before we hitrecord but people are promoted
in this classical model becausethey were good at doing the
thing.
They were good at building thewidget, they were good at doing
the phlebotomy, they were goodat assembling the machines and,
as you have like, so rightly andwell explained in this amazing

(23:09):
graphic.
I hope everyone looks up thatgraphic on your LinkedIn to
drive home the point thatleadership is completely
different and super complicatedrealm, that someone who's good
at the things that got them tothat role, they might not be
good at those things, or theymight not have had the training
and the support.
They might not also beinterested in those things.
All of those are questions.

Well, you see that all the time where the only way
forward is to manage.
But this is an accountant whodidn't really like people all
that much.

Right, yeah, legit , legit, absolutely right, and I
literally was having thisconversation just last week.
One of my clients she's aglobal director of this
multinational pharma corp andshe's realizing that one of her
direct reports is not interestedat all in that.
She wants to stay as theindividual contributor do the
work, that type of thing, andthere's no judgment there.

No, no, no, no.
You have to like people and youhave to want to elevate others
and you have to.
And again, some people's energyisn't necessarily there.
I totally get it.

Yes, and this goes back to the optimizing
efficiency question too, whichis ideally in an ecosystem there
would be some place for thatperson to go where they can
still feel like they can grow,develop and contribute.
That doesn't mean they have tobe a people manager.
I know that's like idealisticand not always possible, but
like I feel, like you know,let's strive for the best that

(24:31):
we can do within the parametersA hundred percent.

And just because you're the best salesperson at
the auto dealership doesn't meanyou're going to be the best
sales manager, right?
That's like saying MichaelJordan is going to be a great
coach.
Yeah, it could be, but it'sprobably not coach?

Yeah, it could be, but yeah, it's probably not.
Yeah, so it's just like there'sso many considerations and,
like each leader's journey andalso other people who are
invested in leaders, we have tothink about how do you support
people who want to be leaders,to pivot from the doing to the
leading.
It's way more complicated thanit sounds, but it's so important
because, like you said, it allstarts with that.
Who you are is how you lead.

(25:08):
Your core of who you are beingas a leader is going to dictate
all the surface level actionsand tactics.
You know you could just dotactics for days, but it's not
actually going to move theneedle if it's really just
performative.

You know Well.
Okay, so, as we wind down, whatare some resources that you
would like, resources that youhave, that you've developed, or
are there other resources thatstand out for you that people
should be aware of, becauseyou've given us some really nice
things to think about?

Yeah.

Where can we learn more about you, but then also
some resources you've developed.
But also are there a couple ofresources that stand out as hey.
Read this if you're interestedin this topic.

Yeah, okay, there's a lot of options.
I'll give you resources by you.
Oh okay, that's so funnybecause I was going to do the
opposite.
But like, okay, research isfrom me, You're good, it's all
going to be like this soup withme anyways but we will get there
in the end.

You know it's going to be some good soup.

Yeah, that's right , because everything got mixed
together and it's all likecomprehensively tied up.
Anyway, so the first thing isdefinitely check out the Forbes
column.
So I write for Forbes as acontributor on leadership
strategy.
So if you just Google Forbesand Cynthia Pong, you'll find it
.
I write on there about everytwo weeks or so.
But if you go back and I havelike some of an archive now that

(26:30):
it's been since August or sothat I've written for them,
there's a good array of things.
So you can kind of like pickand choose and like what is
interesting to you, because thetopics are different but the
core is the same.
So I talk about the new socialcontract we have to navigate at
work now, communication skillsthat relate to leadership, how
to build trust as a leaderintroverted leaders, all that

(26:51):
stuff Love it how to breakthrough middle management and
get to the C-suite.
So that episode is really juicy.
They actually have the style onthat podcast where they bring
in one or two real life kind ofstories to illustrate, so like

(27:15):
there's my part, and then theytalk about how it applies.
There's like a COO and anotherC-suite woman who speaks on
there.
So that's a really good listen.
And the third thing I'll say Ihave a leadership skills quiz.
That's one of these likeBuzzFeed style personality skill
things that I made a couple ofyears ago because I was finding
that a lot of the preexistingrubrics, those leadership styles

(27:38):
, did not capture what I wasseeing in our clients.
And so you can take this evenif you're not a woman of color.
Certainly if you're a woman,you're going to want to take it.
I've had white men take it tooand find it really helpful
because ultimately it gives youanother set of words and another
toolkit to think about yourleadership.
So the quiz it takes like 15,20 minutes to answer these
questions and then it gives youwords to describe how you lead

(28:01):
innately.
Do you want me to give the non?
Ok?

so for sure I'll put links to all those in the
show notes.

Awesome and I'll get those to you.
This one's a little wacky, butNever Split the Difference.
That negotiation book, yeah, doyou think everything
communication is negotiation?
Everything leadership relatesto communication.
So I would definitely read orrevisit, never Split the
Difference.
And also I have a colleague,anton Gunn, who his work on
leadership is really powerful,so I would check out.
He has a number of books andthe final one I'll shout out Do

(28:30):
I have a copy of it here and Iput it on my shelf already.
I have a colleague.
She also is a faculty memberfor our Embrace Change coaching
certification program, belindaChu.
She has a doctorate ineducation and her new book is
called the EMBA coach playbook.
So I would check that one out aswell.

Awesome, cynthia, we're going to do this again.
I hope so.
No, I hope so.
I hope you'll say yes.

Sounds great, sign me up.

Well, you know what I really, really appreciate
your time today.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom, your practical wisdom.
And you know what?
Until next time.

Thank you so much, scott.
This was a total pleasure.
You're so fun.
I got to chat for hours,obviously, so thank you for
having me on and thanks forhaving this podcast.
It's so needed.

Oh well, thank you so much.
Take care, be well.
Thank you so much to Cynthiafor a wonderful conversation.
I so appreciate her wisdom.
That is a lot of people to havecoached, to have helped, to
have really done the work ofmaking sense about their
situation and helping them moveforward, not only in their

(29:37):
careers but in just how tonavigate organizational life.
So, cynthia, thank you so muchfor sharing your practical
wisdom today.
We will have you back foranother conversation and for you
, the listener.
Thank you so much as always forchecking in.

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