Exploring with Purpose (3) with Dr. Jonathan Reams

Episode Transcript
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Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody.
Welcome to Practical Wisdom forLeaders.
Conversation number three withJonathan Reams.
And excited for thisconversation today, Jonathan.
We are we are continuingforward.
And I know that listeners aregoing to get a lot from this
dialogue because I think we'rekind of straddling the space of

(00:20):
theory to practice.
And in that practice, really,really, really focus on how we
can be experimenting out therein the world so that we can do
leader development, so that wecan better prepare people to
serve in these roles.
But I want to continue theconversation and kind of hover
at that theoretical.
And then we're going to slowly,like a great rocket ship, bring

(00:41):
it down to ground level.
That's at least the goal fortoday.
We'll see if we get there.
How are you, sir?

Jonathan Reams (00:48):
I am good, Scott.
I am looking forward because ofcourse we've been uh going off
on tangents as we prepared forthis, but we have an outline to
keep us grounded and focused.
Yes.

Again, uh in theory, we do.
Where do you want to start theconversation today?

Yeah, that there was something that we kind of
left hanging that I think wouldbe a good entry point.
And and I say that because Ithink a lot of people are using
the distinction between verticaland horizontal development a
lot.
You used it.
And I want to say a couplethings about.

(01:28):
I mean, I'm one of those peoplewho tries to avoid it, and
unpacking why might be helpful.
So, first of all, I'll startwith why do I think it's useful?
And I think it's useful becausewe have in an undifferentiated
way talked about learning anddevelopment in ways that did not

(01:51):
make a distinction betweenthings that in Piaget's terms
would be assimilation.
We just take new knowledge andpractices and skills and put
them into the structure of howwe know how to do things, right?
It fits, we can figure it out,we know the basic
infrastructure, and we can takeand do it.

(02:13):
Vertical is more like whatPiaget called accommodation,
that the new information comesin and it doesn't quite fit how
we've been doing things.
Oh, we have it, so we say, whatdo we have to build out to
extend the structures of how wedo things to be able to include

(02:35):
this?
And that is what you knowpeople call vertical
development, and all these youknow, stage models and all these
kinds of things.
So, putting in a plug for ILA,I'm on a panel with Mike Mascelo
and David Day and Becky Andretalking about, I think Mike

(02:56):
Mascelo suggested, should weabandon stage models?
And it's partly this thing thatwe then build a mental
representation of these stagesand attribute things to it and
give values to them, but thoseare actually really fractional
understandings and they miss awhole lot of elements.

(03:17):
Then we get into how do weunderstand development through
dynamic skill theory, forinstance, which would say we
learn something new at a newlevel in one instance.
Somebody mentors us, we have acoach, we have training, and in
that context, we learn how toproduce widget A or give good

(03:42):
feedback or do whatever skill itis, and we do it at a level
beyond how we tend to do otherthings.
Now, what happens is there's aprinciple involved in that, that
we have accumulated a lot ofbuilding blocks that kind of
have fleshed out the territorythat allows us to chunk clothes

(04:02):
together and use a shorthandthat allows us to say, okay, oh,
I know how to give goodfeedback now, and all these
little building blocks andpieces are system one, they're
internalized, and you can dothem.

Give me an example other than feedback.
Does this apply to athletics?
Does it apply to performing CPRsurgery?

I mean, I would say in all those areas, however,
part of what we taught, I thinkwe talked about before is that
one of the challenges islearning sensory motor skills,
the feedback is right away.
Yes, you you see yourperformance or not.
Yes.
Um, if you're a surgeon inoperating you're running the

(04:47):
scalpel, you see what happensright away.
Yep.
When you get into am I doingtransformational leadership?
Am I being a servant leader?
What the hell does that looklike or mean?
Right?
It's it's more abstracted.
And the people that maybecoined these terms or made these

(05:10):
theories went through probablydecades of process and
experimentation, understandingand learning how to put language
around it that ends up in thisreally dense abstract concept
that means a lot to those whocan understand and is
intuitively interesting andresonates with people who then

(05:32):
take the basic things and say,okay, I'm gonna do that, but
don't necessarily go through thejourney.
So the horizontal part is howdo you go through the journey
and build up enough buildingblocks at a given structure of
thinking and putting thingstogether to enable you to kind

(05:53):
of use that a shorthand term todo that?
Now you could say that's avertical, but the relationship
between them is so much moredense.
And you know, the notion of theconnectome, how the the brain
is interwired and is interwiredwith our environment and with

(06:17):
other people.
So the cool thing about dynamicskill theory is it understands
that context matters in ourperformance.
So we're not just performingbased on our skills, we're
performing in context.
Okay, the more we can learn tovary.
So back to my example, youlearn the skill of giving good

(06:41):
feedback, but maybe you'reterrible about giving keynote
talks.
Yeah.
Well, how do you transfer whatyou learned there in terms of
expanding the structure of howyou relate to giving feedback to
take in all those buildingblocks and go through the same
process in another domain,another skill, another task.

(07:04):
But you can usually go throughthat quicker because you've gone
through the process.
You do that enough times inenough domains, and then people
say, Oh, he's self-authoringnow.
He thinks for himself, hedoesn't have a socialized mind,
or you know, she's uh anopportunist now, she's an
expert.
And though those are simpledescriptive ways to talk about

(07:29):
this much more deep and robustprocess.
So that's probably enough ofthat for now.

So, well, let's check something real quick.
What would another activitythat humans engage in be like
leadership?
What would be the closest thingyou can think of?
Would it be therapy?
Would it be group therapy?
What is something that humansengage in that is complex in the

(07:56):
way to learn?
Because piloting an airplane issomewhat of a closed system.

Yeah.
Being helpful, you know.
So Edgar Schein, somebody whoreally went deep and long into
many areas, his second to lastbook was on helping.
And what I found so fascinatingabout it is he had simple
principles that you could tellwere rich and robust underneath.

(08:22):
So he uses examples of uhconversation where somebody
stops on the street and says,Um, which way do Mass Avenue in
in you know Boston?
And he could give an answer,but instead he asks the
question, Where are you tryingto go?
And then they gave a response.

(08:43):
He says, Oh, well, you justhead here and turn right and
you're there.
As where if he had immediatelyanswered, he would have taken
them in the wrong direction.
So there's something about theskill of just being helpful for
other people that requires aquietness within oneself, an

(09:03):
ability to regulate your need tolook clever or be right, or uh,
that's my tendencies, right?
Uh all these kind of thingsthat are noise in us, how do we
downregulate those to have theoutward mindset and notice what
are the real needs of others andactively inquire into it?

(09:25):
So I think to me, that's ageneralized thing that is close
to leadership.

Get it.
Yes, I love that example.
Can you think of a role that wetry and train people for that
it has the complexity embeddedin it of leadership and
management?

I because I taught in a counseling program
for many years, I think grouptherapy but even that is such a
closed system of like sevenpersonalities, which again are
kind of infinite in and ofthemselves.

So I get that.

Well, so yes and no.
I mean, yes, you can putboundaries on that.
However, when you go deep intoit, you see how are the contexts
that each of these bring intothe room affecting that closed
system.
So it's not so closed anymore.
It's certainly there's allsorts of layers and of stuff

(10:21):
that you can see actually showup in that moment, and that's
why I find micro moments, microdevelopment, micro skills,
atomic habits, all these kind ofthings are pointing to the fact
that in the tiny moments it'sall there, yeah, it's all

(10:43):
influencing it.
Even back to the one-minutemanager, you know, take one
minute and you can have a bigimpact because all these things
can be condensed into smallacts.

Yeah.
And I I guess what I'm tryingto think about is just because I
I agree with everything you'vejust said.
And I'm I'm trying, and maybethere isn't, another thing that
has the let's say I'm a CEO ofan organization or an executive
director of a nonprofit.
I'm just trying to think ofanother role where a human is

(11:18):
navigating that level ofcomplexity, whether it's the
context, whether it's thebusiness, whether it's the team.
Yeah.

I agree with that in the sense that we can
make more visible and explicitmany more considerations,
constraints, pressures in asystem that leaders in
organizations have to contendwith, and often don't, right?

(11:49):
They just cut off the roughedges and focus on what they can
keep in mind.
Yeah.
So maybe this is a transitioninto what do we do with all
this?
Yes, one way.
And maybe it's an intermediatestep.
Yeah.
And so I think about this interms of my own journey of

(12:12):
coming from a place of broadstrokes of consciousness
development, encountering adultdevelopment theories and
practice, ego development, skilldevelopment, and so on.
And then starting to get intowhat are developmental
practices, and there's lots ofthem out there under many

(12:34):
guises, and they're all to meattempts to address what we're
talking about.
How do you be helpful inguiding other people to learn
and grow and develop in usefulways?
Yes.
And we can point to the limitsof our education system or the

(12:55):
way it sucks creativity andnatural learning out of us.
And a lot of one of the areasof my focus, let's say, is how
do we reconnect adults with thatnatural learning cycle?
So Theo Dawson, who you'veinterviewed to whose work I've

(13:18):
gotten immense value out of,uses these virtuous cycles of
learning.
And playing with those over theyears, and then talking to
somebody else that you'veinterviewed, Mike Mascolo, who
worked with Kurt Fisher a lottoo.
I started to experiment, andlike anything, development

(13:38):
happens through action,experimentation, and reflection.
Yeah.
What did we try?
What did we learn?
And how fast can you iteratethat rather than build the
widget, get attached to the wayyou colored it, you know, like
Ford?
You can have a car any coloryou want as long as it's black.
Yep.
Right?
So, how do we do this in a waythat allows us to iterate?

(14:02):
So I've experimented.
I got somebody I was talking toonce, uh, said, Oh, why don't
you just call them learningloops?
And that stuck with me foryears.
And I, okay, so now how do wehelp people learn not by giving
them content, but by saying,What is it that is in your

(14:27):
environment that you're tryingto solve, and how are you trying
to solve it now?
And where are you bumping upagainst brick walls?
And how do you help themidentify that?
And that's a way to calibratewhat's what's the goal then?
What is what's the learninggoal?
Now, what I like to do next isexperiment and say, okay, you

(14:50):
see this goal because youalready have several of the
building blocks, probably, butnot all of them.
So, how do you break this downand make distinctions about, you
know, you take a mind map, youknow, what is collaboration?
Well, you got to communicate,you've got to be persuasive,
you've got to do all thesethings.
Each of those breaks down.

(15:12):
Let's look at that to see wheredo you feel you want to take a
more granular skill andexperiment by practicing in the
context you're in.
And then give people structuredprompts for this, scaffold a
little by giving themsuggestions around okay, if this

(15:34):
is your goal for uh askingclarifying questions.
Yeah.
Well, here's a list ofclarifying type questions.
Here's a list of opinion typequestions where you're really
just trying to, you know, promptpeople to agree with you and
help people make okay, whichones do I do, or which one,

(15:54):
okay, I could practice this, andthen give them some questions
to help them reflect on it toprompt what they are looking at.
And this comes from a lot ofwork around the notion of
granularity.
Rather than having anundifferentiated thing we're

(16:17):
trying to get better at, how dowe let the fog clear to see some
details?
Ah, we need to go there and notquite there.
So I need, yeah, I need to fillin this gap.
And you make those as small aspossible.
So a lot of the practice andexperimentation that me and some
colleagues are doing now is howdo we design those types of

(16:43):
learning loops?
So we even built a you know, adocument from several
conversations from those of uswho have practiced this more and
say, what has become implicitfor us?
How do we think about the stepsin the process?
What are the types you design?
How does the context play intoit?
How do you guide people intothis and through it in a way

(17:05):
that is more natural for peopleto learn from their everyday
experience?

So give me a concrete example of this in
action.
How how do you see that,Jonathan?
I'm I'm seriously, I'm superinterested.
Let's say it's activelistening, ground level.
So, how does this?
I'm a human, I'm in front ofyou, I need to improve.
Let's just something aroundlistening, right?
How do you think about that?

So, a simple way to do it is to calibrate where
is a person?
You know, they're asking thequestion because they know they
have some blind spots orlimitations.
So we could say, okay, here'ssome simple distinctions.
Are you listening to try andgather data to validate your own

(17:52):
beliefs and arguments?
Or are you listening to uh findfault and be critical or look
for reasons to be cynical?
And there's all sorts of other,you know, emotional baggage can
be associated there.
Or are you listening to learn?
Like Keegan and Leahy'sdeconstructive criticism.

(18:13):
Is it a stance saying, I knowsomething about this, but what's
the reason behind yourthinking?
Can we unpack what's implicitor what your experience is?
And you can offer people thesedistinctions, and they say, Oh,
okay, I see.
And then you ask them toobserve when they're asking
questions and listening andwhat's going on.

(18:35):
How would you categorize howyou're listening?
And of course, by just gettingthem to pay attention to that,
they start to become aware of,oh, now I see I'm not so I'm
good at this, but I'm not sogood at this.
Or in this context, I gettriggered and I and then I'm not
learning anything when Ilisten.

(18:55):
Then it gives them clues aboutwhere do I need to focus my
development, where do I need topractice something new and
different.
And you keep iterating this.
You gather more data, yourefine what you're focused on,
and you keep going through thatcycle.

Okay, give me another.
Look, okay, so a lot of busyexecutives that I'm that I'm
working with, uh just slowingdown, being present, and because
it's just one thing to the nextthing, the next thing, and they
just get sucked in.
I think they have no clue howthey're showing up, their
energy.
We talked about that a coupleepisodes back.
So, what how do you think aboutthat one?

Yeah, that this is a really common thing.
And I actually had a student doher master's thesis
interviewing some of theexecutives we had worked with
around this.
So we have one of theselearning loops on when to think
slow.
And the context is thoseexecutives have developed

(19:54):
incredibly good system onepattern recognition, and they
rely on gut feeling or intuitionto be able to read a situation
and make a decision because theydon't have time to stop and
gather data and so on.
That's what you're saying.
They're busy, they gotta relyon that.
The challenge is as the world'schanging so fast, new novel

(20:20):
contexts and situations come upmore often where the pattern
kind of fits but maybe doesn't.
And you can make a gut decisionthat doesn't take into account
what this situation needs, andit maybe works or maybe doesn't,
or you know, doesn't fit wellor creates backlash or whatever.

(20:42):
So one of the applicationswe've built is to say to people,
so great, gut gut thinking,intuition is fantastic, and it's
limited.
How do you have the kind ofmetacognitive habit to notice
when you need to slow down anduse system two in Kahneman's

(21:08):
term and be explicit in whatyou're considering?
What we'll do is invite peopleto say, well, look at some
decisions you made and map them.
How were you dealing withtensions or polarities between
urgency and importance, orfamiliarity and novelty, or what
was your emotional state?

(21:29):
You know, were you calm andobjective or experiencing strong
emotions that could cloud yourjudgment?
What kind of data do you have?
And so we invite them to lookat recent situations, try to map
out what was going on in agiven situation.
And with that data, then thepractice is over the next days,

(21:49):
notice when you're relying onyour intuition or gut feeling,
and then list the kind ofdistinctions from the previous
step that are factors thattrigger gut feelings.
And then the third part is whenyou notice the urge to make
that stop and say, How would Idecide if maybe this is a

(22:10):
situation that warrants someslower thinking and attention?
They do that just to gatherdata by observing their behavior
and trying to reflect on what'shappening.
And then we give some coachingquestions.
What happened when youincreased your awareness of
triggers?
What resources did you findmost useful?

(22:30):
What did you notice about thequality of these decisions and
their outcomes?
Yeah.
And of course, that fee givesthem feedback to start learning
from their own experience in ahabituated way.

Yeah, and I think I think it's I think it's
brilliant.
I think it's, I mean, what I'mhearing here.
So again, I'm doing a readback,so you can let me know if I'm
off base, but we're we'rechunking it down to something
that is important to theindividual right now.
That the this is something, itcould be even feedback on a 360,
or it could be, you know, butthis is something that's

(23:02):
important to the individual.
It's fairly contained, it's abehavior they own, they have
control over.
And we're simply inviting themto begin to notice and be aware.
And and there's some questionsthat we're asking that are
hopefully triggering some ofthose insights that are
occurring.
And it's small.

(23:23):
It's not.
Hey, this is transformationalleadership, which to your point
from previous conversations,there are thousands, thousands
of things.
And and that's where I get alittle bit overwhelmed right now
is you know, we can just startgoing down the list of the
thousands of things that ideallya great leader would know and

(23:46):
do and have skill around.
And so, you know, that's wheremy mind goes is are there some
master micro learnings that willserve me in multiple domains?

I think there's there's two places I want to go
with this.
Yeah, one is the principle ofhow do we help people reconnect
with their natural love oflearning and development?
Because many, and you know, I'mtalking to somebody in a large
consultancy saying we don't havea growth mindset.
We know we need to develop ourleaders, but we don't have a

(24:22):
culture of taking time to growand learn.
And when I talk to some ofthose leaders, then you see that
that is in varying degrees.
Some of them have more interestthan others, but when the
culture doesn't support orreinforce it in certain ways.
So the principle of if you canget people to reconnect with how

(24:44):
did you learn to walk?
How did you learn to ride abike?
You did stuff and you fell downand you got hurt, but your
motivation to learn the thingwas far bigger than the judgment
about your failure.
Yeah, it's when we get moredeveloped egos that we tend to
be more worried about our egoand looking bad when we fail,

(25:06):
and then we don't learn as much.

So is it almost that we are teaching people to
become aware when they're notgetting the results they want,
or when things aren't goingwell, or it's not working, for
them to in some ways cut offsome of those cognitive biases

(25:33):
like self-serving bias, forinstance, and get curious.
And when they get curious, theystart to observe and they start
to to run experiments and theystart to reflect.
And if I have that mastersystem in place, then really I
can learn anything.
Maybe not algebra too, but Ican learn a lot of things.

But but this is uh to me, the principle is you
know, life will teach youbetter.
The curriculum is all aroundyou.
Yes, but you don't have the theprinciple.
So you you describe that verywell, and that's what we're
trying to do by giving peopleinstances of things where their
the pain or motivation is greatenough that they're willing to

(26:17):
take the time to invest in whatI like to call slow learning.
Sure.
This is not quick, right?
Because we're both cleaning upand undoing, like you talked
about, all the bad habits thatwe've accumulated in terms of
cognitive biases and things thatprotect us in the world and

(26:39):
protect our ego and so on.
So there are all sorts ofthings for that, but and there's
many ways we could talk aboutit, but I've been experimenting,
let's say, for the last year inthe back of my mind, saying,
and to this, this was to thepoint of one of your recent
podcasts how do we teach peoplebasic blocking and tackling?

(27:02):
How do we teach people the kindof uh fundamentals that we
often skip over because it'scool and it makes us look good
as educators or as consultantsbecause we're saying something
that people don't understandmakes us look authoritative, and
say, actually, let's start withsome self-leadership.

(27:26):
How do you learn to thinkclearly?
How do you become aware of yourcognitive biases?
How do you notice yourselfrunning up the ladder of
inference and start buildingmetacognition, an internal
balcony where there's part ofyou that isn't caught up in the
drama and the automaticthinking, but you start to build

(27:49):
a more robust platform toobserve yourself?
Yeah, so that's one skill.
How do you just think moreclearly?
And regulating emotions is partof that, all sorts of things
you could go into.
But then you could say, okay,now you've thought about stuff,
but if it just sits in you, sowhat?
You've got to communicateequally clearly.

(28:11):
How do you use tools likeTorbert's Four Parts of Speech
or learn listening to learn orasking clarifying questions to
understand that communication isa two-way street.
You've got to calibrate whatyou're saying so that it lands
and has enough overlap with howpeople are hearing it so that it

(28:34):
connects and is more actionablefor people.

But this is where, like, I can imagine large
language models and AI could beso incredibly important because
the AI could potentially thenserve me some tools, some
heuristics, some, you know, wewere talking about the readback,
right?
That this is a very simple toolto ensure that that
communication has we're on thesame page, right?

(28:58):
Wow.
What did we just agree to?
Say it back to me real quick.
And you know, that saves livesin healthcare and disasters in
in emergency services,oftentimes.
And so it's interesting becauseand I think this is part of
what you're building, correct?

Yes.

Okay, talk a little bit about that, and then we're
gonna wind down, Jonathan.
I know we have to eventually,right?

It would be really dangerous if I came to
Cleveland, and we just have toit would be so uh that sequence
uh it goes back to the phraseyou quote me on leaders create
the weather.
And I said that, and then I'vebeen trying to unpack.

(29:43):
Well, what did he pick up inthat?
What's that about?
Oh, how what are the metaphors?
You know, if our internalcondition, our thinking and
feeling is turbulent, even ifwe're blind to it, others sense
it.
We can't hide our inner state.

No, no.

We think we do, but we're not.
So there's a lot of work thatgoes on there to help leaders
realize that you know thefundamental thing is lead
yourself first.
You are the instrument of yourleadership, the the field you
create, whether people trust youand lean in or all these
things.
So trying to break that down,thinking, okay, communicating,

(30:26):
connecting.
We know leadership's all aboutrelationships.
How do you start to seekperspectives, understand
different uh value systemspeople are part of and
influenced by and loyal to, andand really build empathy and
understanding, which contributesto trust, which greases the

(30:50):
wheels wheels of common action.

Yeah, and then and then my mind goes back to you
know, um, is it as simple asgoing to the virtues and and
starting there, right?
As a as a as a place to beginof how do we help you know a
good human exist?
And then you know, the thinkingis that that will generally

(31:14):
bridge to uh a position ofauthority.

Well, I and I think it's not quite as simple
as that, I would say.
I I think but that but whatyour point to is that is the
foundation.
If it's not in place, then allthe things you learn about um
how to work in markets, how todeal with shareholders, how to

(31:38):
create cultures in organizationsor influence them and so on,
all those things can bemanipulated for you know all
sorts of ways.
So things I've heard about whathappened with Enron was people
were trained and rewarded to bevery clever about these kind of

(31:58):
things, but they were doing itin service of something
fundamentally broken insidethem.

Yep.
Yep.
Jonathan, I'm I'm I'm sothankful for our conversations.
And and I I said it a littlebit ago.
I was I was joking a littlebit, but it's true.
My brain always hurts afterspeaking with you, but I love
that.
I love that, and I appreciatethat because I think you're
exploring some really, reallycool things.

(32:26):
And it's this type of thinkingand this type of experimentation
that we need to see if we canget further faster.
I think we are spendingbillions of dollars on leader
development around the worldwith very little ROI, at least
that I've come across as far asstudies and such.
And, you know, on one level, Ithink our last three

(32:49):
conversations have pointed tosome of that complexity of why
it's so difficult to do.
I mean, in in some ways, it'show do we develop a
well-adjusted human, right?

Well, and I think this is the point of why
have we talked so much kind ofgeeky theory of which we've only
kind of tipped the iceberg of.
But it's to me to answer thosequestions of why is there a
knowing doing gap?
Yeah, why can't we developleader development in better
ways, other than how themilitary does it?

(33:20):
Well, then we have to dig deepand question many layers of
assumptions and practices andsocialization and
institutionalization of thingsto uncover.
Oh, underneath that, there'sactually maybe some things that
could work better, but now we'vegot to figure out how to sift
the signal from the noise, putit together in a way and put it

(33:44):
out there.
And I think there are manypeople out there doing this in
their own context, in their ownway with their own language,
attempting to further this.
We don't always see them ornotice them or have an awareness
of them, but my gut feeling isthat there are an isolated many

(34:07):
who are doing this, who justdon't get the media attention or
profiles that allow it to be athing that's visible.

Yeah.
Well, I think there's a lot ofopportunity.
A lot of opportunity.
Okay.
You well.
You well.
Okay.
What can I say that hasn't beensaid over three episodes?
Actually, there's probably alot more that could be said.
But as always, Jonathan,appreciate you, appreciate your

(34:36):
mind, appreciate your energy forthe exploration.
And I think we share somecommonalities.
How do we better prepare peopleto serve in these really
complex roles and serve well?
Thank you to you, sir, forgiving us your time, your
wisdom.
And for those of you who havelistened to all three episodes,

(34:58):
thank you so very, very much.
Take care all.
Be well.
Bye bye.

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