Leadership at the Crossroads with Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei

Episode Transcript
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Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody.
Welcome to Fronesis, thepodcast.
Practical wisdom for leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today I'm honored.
I have Dr.
Hsien-Hsien Lei, and she isthe CEO of the American Chamber
of Commerce in Singapore.
She has a background in adegree in biology, a degree in
epidemiology.

(00:20):
I'm excited for us to kind ofexplore even your pathway to the
position that you're in rightnow, which is exciting.
Before we jump in, maybe let'stalk a little bit about the
American Chamber of Commerce inSingapore so that listeners have
a context for what you'redoing, because I find it
fascinating.

Dr. Hsien-Hsien Lei (00:39):
Thank you so much, Scott.
I really appreciate having thechance to be here with you and
also to tell people about theAmerican Chamber of Commerce,
because definitely I think inthe United States at least,
we're all very familiar with ourlocal chambers of commerce that
look after businesses on MainStreet and in town, making sure
that they are successful andthat the local population and

(01:00):
tourists get to know them.
It's not that much different,actually, in Singapore, what a
Chamber of Commerce does, exceptthat we have more of an
international bent.
So we look after Americanbusinesses in Singapore and to
some extent and theinternational businesses that
are here as well, because whatwe're trying to do is help them
succeed in a very global,turbulent environment by

(01:21):
advocating for them, byproviding a platform for them to
share their thought leadership,by building a community where
people can do business together,and we support the wider
community here in Singapore bydoing great work like CSR and
philanthropy, volunteering, andall of that.
So Chamber of Commerce to me isall about community.
And it happens to be focused onbusiness.

(01:42):
That's why the name commerce,on the other hand, it is a place
where people from all walks oflife, across all levels, across
all functions, can find a place,can meet new people, can grow,
can learn new things, and ofcourse, make sure that they
themselves thrive as businessleaders and that their
businesses thrive along withthem.

Well, okay, now.
And so how did you move fromcareer in STEM to a career in uh
chamber of commerces?

Yeah, it seems like nobody wakes up,
okay?
Nobody grows up and going, oh,I want to be a leader of a
chamber of commerce, right?
I mean, I think many of usprobably didn't engage much with
chambers, especially if you arein science, like you said.
And so my passion is in publichealth.
I maintain an active presencein the public health community

(02:31):
community here in Singapore andin the US.
On the other hand, I see it asactually all interconnected.
I generally am the kind ofperson who does like to connect
dots.
And even if it's just inside myown head, it might be tangled
up, but somehow it works.
And so for me, a long, longtime ago when I was going to
graduate school, I deliberatelychose to go to Hopkins in

(02:54):
Baltimore because it was closeto Washington, D.C.
And so that synergy betweenpublic health and policy was
where I was always reallyinterested in.

Nice.

And if I'd have stayed in the US and not
moved overseas, I would like tothink that I would personally be
involved in some way in eitherthe public sector as a scientist
for the government, you know,local government, state,
whichever, or maybe even inelected office.
As it happens, my life took adifferent turn.
But everything I've done hasbeen aligned to my public health

(03:24):
identity.
And everything I've done isfiguring out how what I do can
enable others or to enablesociety to be healthier and
happier.
And so that's why I think theChamber of Commerce role, as I
kind of pivoted and diddifferent things.
I was always aligned tohealthcare.
I became interested inbusiness.
However, I think all of it isinterlinked and it's up to

(03:45):
people to help bring everyonetogether.
And so I have the great fortuneand honor to be at an
organization that connects thepublic sector with the private
sector and also has theopportunity to do good for
society.

Well, and and so I have uh so much respect.
And uh you are you are kind ofquote unquote in it every day.
I mean, I imagine you'renavigating a number of different
just tensions all day long,every day.
Is that accurate?

So, so I I you know, so I go get regular
like reflexology massage.
Every single therapist I everhave, they're like, wow, you're
really stiff.
And I'm like, well, I I'mreally sorry, but I think I was
born this way.
So I think this tension andbeing tense is just my natural
state.
So it doesn't bother me as muchas it gives me something to

(04:36):
work with.
So it's something that Iconstantly, it's it's it's kind
of like, you know, a soundingboard in a way where I think to
myself, oh, if it if it's tooeasy, clearly we haven't been
tackled tackling the biggestchallenges, the most difficult
things that need to be solved.
So I don't like to coast.
And so although I feel thetension all the time, I try to
take advantage of it to do bigthings.

Oh, and that's awesome.
And so, I mean, I think, well,talk about some of those
tensions that you'reconsistently navigating as the
CEO of the Chamber of Commerce.
I can only imagine there's anumber of different viewpoints
and perspectives kind of comingat you all the time.

Yeah, you got it.
I think we people like to sayright now that we're living in
very turbulent times and howremember during the pandemic,
the favorite word wasunprecedented.
I think that's rather sillybecause if anybody, if you read
any history, if you readanybody's memoirs, you know that
people had it hard all along.
It's never been really easy foranybody.

Yes.

However, we are living when and where we
are living now.
So there are many things thatwe are dealing with.
Some of it's newly introduced,like this AI stuff, right?
And so when I think about everyday, I'm I I feel like I'm
often asked to choose sides orpeople want to pick, put me on a
side.
Yeah.
And I think as a leader, thatcan be very difficult because

(05:53):
especially at a chamber, we areindependent, we are nonpartisan.
We I can't say that we'reunbiased, because we obviously
have a point of view, which isto help businesses succeed.

Yeah.

So, you know, so that's that's our bias,
is towards business, but not atthe expense of others.
The kind of tensions or sidesthat I often am thinking about
every day and trying to becareful to be fair and represent
our members well would be onthings like am I pro-government
or am I pro-business?

(06:24):
By default, because of my role,I'm supposed to be
pro-business, right?
But we all know that in orderfor society to function well, we
need strong regulations toprotect consumers, to protect
the environment and all of that.
And so that's one thing that Ioften really have to sit down
and think, right?
So when a business comes with aparticular issue or, you know,
an entire sector, say, has uh,you know, feedback about the

(06:48):
price of electricity, forexample, how do I then go and
advocate for them to thegovernment and say, we need to
do something about managing theprice of electricity?
What role does government haveto play here?
And how do we better understandthe difficulties they're up
against so that we provide thisbalance between business
interests and governmentinterests?
So it's one thing I'mstruggling with all the time.

(07:10):
And then even internally, I'malways thinking for myself and
my team, it's like, how do Ilook after their own individual
interests at the same timeprotecting the organization's
interests?
And we're a nonprofit, whichmany people are like, oh, you're
a nonprofit.
Yet we represent corporateinterests, right?
And as a nonprofit, the culturecan be quite different.
And at least I feel this waybecause I came from a corporate

(07:33):
environment.
I think nonprofit, we tend tobe a little bit, I don't know if
this is right, but I feel thatI'm a little bit softer.
I don't know if that isactually the right thing because
sometimes you have to stillmake tough decisions, you know,
for the organization that isgoing to be tough for the
individual.
So that's another tension thatI feel internally.
Uh it's just every day.
I mean, I don't like, we don'twant to get into the politics of

(07:55):
things, but because I'm in anorganization that sometimes ends
up dealing with geopolitics,people make a lot of assumptions
about what side I am on.
I'm an American living inSingapore.
Am I on the US side?
Am I on Singapore side?
And I don't want to befacetious and be that type of
person and says, I'm oneverybody's side.
I want everybody to succeed.
That's just like naive, right?

(08:16):
So those are the kinds ofthings I think probably is
universal for a lot of businessleaders in terms of how they
have to think nowadays aboutwhat side am I on and how do I
protect, you know, the main corestrategic interests while at
the same time making sure that Iunderstand other people's point
of view.

Yeah, and and in a in a um context at times where
kind of nuance is it can beunderappreciated.
It can be, you know, if ifyou're on my team, you should be
on my team for everything,always, right?
And that's a hard place to be,always.

I try to make people feel like I'm on
their team.
I like that.
I like how you said team ratherthan side.
Because if you feel like I'm onyour team and I'm looking out
for your best interest,sometimes I'm gonna have to
probably do things you don'tlike.
But I'm I have your bestinterests in mind.
And this is the same thing withbeing a parent, right?
Sometimes you're gonna have toask your kids to do stuff they
don't want to do.

(09:13):
It's in your best interest.
And so I do try to think of itthat way.
Uh, because at the end of theday, in a member-driven
organization like Amcham, it canbe a bit like order taking if
you let it be.
So people come to you and theydemand that you do certain
things and you say, okay, on it.
And you just do whatever theywant without thinking about it.
I don't think that is a goodservice to anyone because you

(09:35):
have experience and knowledgethat they may not have, and you
can give them feedback aboutwhat's the right approach and
give them another perspective.
Maybe it's not us giving it tothem, it's the rest of our
community that can come togetherto develop these different
perspectives and to share.
So uh yeah, I try not to be anorder taker and I like this idea
of being on your team ratherthan on your side.

Hmm.
Hmm.
Well, so what else are youseeing right now?
What else are you navigatingfrom from your seat in the
world?
What's on your radar?

Well, a lot of what we do now really is
on geopolitics.
I think companies for, youknow, companies and leaders now
have to decide how vocal theywant to be.
I think we've seen this trenddeveloping over the last, I
don't know, 10 yearsthereabouts, where we want, we
say we want, at least surveys,surveys tell us, right, that,
hey, customers want you to havea point of view.

(10:30):
They want you to have, youknow, an idea of social justice.
However, I think many companieshave all often just decided to
be more conservative on thatfront.
We're now finding, at leastfrom what when we learn from our
member companies, is that youno longer can stay silent.
At the very least, you need tospeak up and protect your own

(10:52):
self-interest.
And by that I mean theorganization's interests.
And so that's something that Ithink we are helping to feed
information into the widercommunity.
So by doing such things assurveys, so that you have a
general consensus and some datato back up your company's point
of view.
We are finding now thatcompanies who have generally
stayed under the radar in thepast and leaders who have, you

(11:14):
know, deter decided that theywould let others within the
organization handle this, theyare now finding they have to
have the right talking points.
They have to have a point ofview, they need to know what to
say when they meet certainindividuals, which maybe lot in
the past they could have justsaid, oh, let's let's change the
topic.

So, in in some ways, kind of coaching them or
helping them understand thatthat is a necessity to have that
point of view and be ready toshare that point of view uh
critical.
Is that accurate?

Yeah, there's just you just can't hide
anymore, I don't think.
And particularly becausepeople's expectations are much
higher in terms ofcommunications.
We have so many differentchannels of communications now,
much of it which is online, thatdemand that you be articulate,
that you be screen ready, thatyou know, we're on a podcast
now.
So that that expectation is wayhigher than it ever was before.

(12:05):
So I think leaders now have amuch more difficult job and
spend a lot more time, or theyshould be spending a lot more
time thinking about who they'recommunicating to and what
they're actually going tocommunicate.

What else?
What else are you seeing?
What else are some things thatare kind of bubbling up and
getting to your radar as umcritical for uh organizations,
leaders to be thinking about tohave on their radar?

I'm suppressing the the desire to
sigh because there's so much onpeople's plates, right?
And especially for those.
I I think the the there's a bigum there there may be a
difference, I should say,between those who are in
multinational corporationsversus those who are in the
small and medium-sizedenterprises, because the

(12:53):
multinationals definitely face alot of these cross-border
challenges, right?
Trying to figure out differentregulations and all that.
So we spent a lot of timetalking about how does one part
of the world impact another.

Yes.

Right?
So because Singapore really isa very cosmopolitan place,
there's open trade, andSingapore has many different
kinds of free trade agreementswith different countries.
They're a world leader in manyof the innovation spaces.
So I think we spent a lot oftime figuring out how countries
can partner together and howcountries can have economic

(13:26):
agreements that benefit theircitizens.
So the chamber does do quite abit of work in that.
On the, I think what probablyneeds to be talked about more
are the challenges that smalland medium-sized enterprises
face in terms of even suchthings as operations, talent.
Uh, these are issues, ofcourse, that big companies face,

(13:47):
but they have so many more, somuch more resources to tap into.
So if you're talking about, oh,you know, I need to hire talent
and I have to figure out whatI'm gonna do with all this AI, I
think big companies tend to beable to manage it a bit better
because they just have so muchresources at hand.
The small and medium-sizedenterprises, I do worry about
them because we're in Singapore,the government provides a lot

(14:11):
of support for them.
The thing is, people can offeryou all sorts of things if you
don't have time and you're justliving day-to-day trying to
service your customers.
How do we take them to the nextlevel?
So that's something else thatwe think about quite a bit is
how do we as a chamber bringpeople and ideas together so our
members can be more efficientin terms of upskill, upscaling

(14:33):
their business, right?
Scaling their business,upskilling their employees, and
also have a little fun whilethey're doing it.
I I think uh that's a lot ofwhat we think about too is how
do we make business owners,business leaders, uh have an
easier time managing their workand their team?

Yeah, because the complexities are, you know,
again, you kind of joked aboutthe unprecedented times, but in
some ways, I mean, the thesewhether it's Gen AI or, you
know, down the roadsuperintelligence or some no one
knows how this is all going toplay out.
And so for those small tomediums, as you said, uh the

(15:12):
resources and the time and andeven you know, many of them
right now, at least on on myside of the world, as I'm
working with thoseorganizations, they're a little
bit in a flutter.
They're like, Well, we shouldbe do something with AI.
Well, you know, and but theydon't have any idea like
potentially what that wouldmean.
Uh, and so, you know, there'ssome studies, at least in the US

(15:34):
now, that a lot of these AIinitiatives or early ones in
some of these organizations arefailing because they don't
necessarily even know how toutilize the tool um or if it's
the relevant tool for some oftheir needs, right?
So I can totally empathize withthat challenge of how do we
help support theseorganizations?

(15:55):
Such a critical, critical task.

Well, and I find the whole AI conversation
to be, like you said, sometimesit's a bit premature.
There's still a lot of need inthe world that does not require
AI, or AI actually cannot help.
So we think beyond ourdeveloped countries where we
have access to, say, you know,I'm in public health, so I think
a lot about access tohealthcare.

(16:18):
You know, I have a friend whoinvented a device to put the
middle ear, the inner ear tube,you know, for middle ear
infections.
In in many of the developingcountries, they don't have
access to an operating theater.
They don't have access togeneral anesthesia, which
traditionally is needed to putthese tubes into the kids' ears.
Well, she invented a devicethat's kind of like a, you know,

(16:39):
an ear piercing machine that'sa little click gun that where
you can put these tubes intokids' ears without anesthesia or
an operating theater.
The crazy thing is, you thinkyou need AI for that.
And so I have all theseinvestors who are constantly
like, let's have a conferencetalking about deep tech
investment.
What they really mean when theysay deep tech is AI.

(16:59):
And I'm like, there are so manythings in this world that we
need, like latrines in India.
We still need to dig toilets ina lot of part of the part of
the world.
We need AI for this.
Boy, it'd be so great if AIcould dig me a toilet.

Digitize the toilet experience.
Yeah.

Hey, well, I mean, so you could say, okay,
robots and yada, yada.
So there's a lot of thingsabout fresh water and those
things where you can put sensorson them.
So that is awesome.
It's just that we get so caughtup in this.
Oh, AI is gonna take my job.
I want also people to realizethat there are many things in
the world we need that AI cannotdo for us, and we need to be a
little bit more let's anotherfavorite word, pragmatic.

You're gonna use all the buzzwords.
I love it.

Yeah, yeah.
We can play tic-tac-toe.

Well, it uh so you said something that also made
me.
I almost had an image ofSwitzerland coming into my into
my mind.
I mean, it it seems thatanother complexity in Singapore
is that you're you're at alittle bit of a crossroads of
the world.
Wouldn't you agree?

Exactly.
Singapore has is actually avery well thought-through
country.
It's only 60 years old.
So this year's celebrated 60years of this country's
existence.
And the leaders are veryplanful.
They try to look around cornersand they're very open to
learning.
I know the different ministersare always looking out for
opportunities to learn.
So that's a really importantlesson for us, right?

(18:22):
In order to do big things, youhave to be open to learning.
And Singapore deliberately hasset itself up as a hub.
And so, any kind of hub, itcould be an innovation hub, it
could be a supply chain hub.
And whatever it can do to bethat hub to bring people
together and to be able to helppeople spread and expand
throughout the region and theworld, that's by design.

(18:44):
And so I think that's thereason why being in Singapore,
either being in a business orbeing in a chamber of commerce,
is really unique because youhave many visitors who come
through Singapore where you havethe opportunity to engage and
the opportunity to grow yourbusiness beyond a very small
market.
The truth is Singapore itselfis a very small market.

(19:05):
It just ticked over six millionpeople in terms of population.
It's a very small place.
And yet its influence and itsability to do more for the rest
of the world is reallyimpressive.
And so I'm really glad to behere.

Yeah, I mean, and just even a crossroads of uh,
you know, China and the UnitedStates.
Is that accurate?

Yeah, I mean, it's another one of those
situations where people areconstantly asking, which whose
side are you on?
And obviously, I'm an American,I represent American business
interests.
I would like to be like, hey,let's be on the US side and
remember remind them of all thewonderful things that the US has
done for Singapore, but that'snot the right way to do it,
right?
Singapore has its own needs, ithas its own principles in the

(19:44):
way they, you know, they provideum governance.
And so we need to respect that.
And it's not just because wecome in here and open big
companies and all those thingsthat we can demand that
Singapore do certain things.
And and so being in Singapore,seeing how they operate is also
a good lesson for business,right?
So when people ask me from abusiness perspective, should

(20:05):
they choose to do more in theUnited States, should they
choose to do more in China?
The truth is, what can I say,right?
I can be biased, they know I'mbiased already, but let's not be
so obvious.
That the we need to think aboutwhat are what are the needs of
the business?
What do their stakeholdersslash shareholders want?
And what is the right thing forthem to do?
And in that case, then it's upto us to be competitive and say,

(20:26):
for what you want toaccomplish, the United States
can do that better for you.
But in other cases, maybe it'sthe China market.
I don't know.

Well, I I just have I have so much respect.
I mean, I really, really do,because uh it it's you are you
are in a in a very, very uniqueposition of um as you as we've
kind of talked about, justnavigating uh multiple different
kind of situations,perspectives, viewpoints,

(20:57):
mindsets, and being a little bitof a crossroads for some of
that, I I just really, reallyhave great respect.
I really do.

I'm not actually the most flexible
person.
So if you're sitting out thereand you're thinking, like, wow,
she must be so flexible andopen-minded.
Actually, on almost everysingle one of those assessments
that you do for your likelearning style and your
leadership style, I always scorevery low on flexibility.
I'm very like honest to sharethis with people because I want

(21:26):
people to know that you canlearn to have this open mindset,
you can remind yourself to bemore flexible, even if that's
not your natural inclination.
So I answer these likeassessments very honestly.
So I know where my weaknessesare.
And this actually is one of myweaknesses, and yet I have to
manage it every single day.
So I want people to have hopethat you too can do it if I can.

You're a J on the Myers-Briggs type indicator,
huh?
I imagine, like, yeah.

No, it's crazy.
Yeah, it's like I'm veryextreme.

Oh well, I as we begin to wind down, is there
anything else that maybe wehaven't covered that you want
people to know about thechamber?
I'm gonna put some links in theshow notes.

Yeah, I I would like people to understand,
at least for the chamber inSingapore, we really try to be
inclusive.
And so some people may have theidea that you're in a that we
are an American chamber andtherefore we're only interested
in talking to Americans, we'reonly interested in American
companies.
That is not actually true.
We are much more international,as I think the United States

(22:30):
really is.
And so, therefore, when youcome and visit us, you find a
community of people from alldifferent kinds of ethnicities,
nationalities, you findbusinesses that are very
international, but of course doquite a lot of business with
American companies or in the US.
So that's really important forme to let people know that we
are very inclusive.
The other thing is also just tolet people know that if you are

(22:54):
in a business association ofany type, I hope that they will
find their place in it, right?
That for ours, I, you know,really believe in this.
There's something here foreveryone across all levels,
across all functions.
It isn't just for the CEOs orthe senior leaders who want to
come and hobnob with othersenior people like themselves.
No way, I'm not into that.
They, of course, we have aspace for them too, but uh, but

(23:18):
we do so much for the middlemanager who are struggling with
their own thing, for everybodywho needs to learn what AI is
going.
What is it?
What is AI inference, forexample?
You know, there's so much tolearn from each other here.
And then, you know, I just wantpeople to know that there is a
place where you can be abusiness leader and be accepted

(23:38):
and a place where they can comeand feel like they're part of a
really, you know, wonderfulcommunity that's out to help
each other.
And so, and help each other andhelp the rest of the greater
Singapore community.
And that's what's the mostimportant thing to know about
the American Chamber of Commercein Singapore.

I love it.
I love it.
Well, I always I always winddown conversations by uh saying
or asking, you know, what haveyou been streaming or listening
to or reading or consumingthat's caught your attention
lately?
Now it could have something todo with what we've just
discussed, or it could havenothing to do with what we've
just discussed.
But what might listeners beinterested in?

(24:15):
Um, I have I have gotten morebook recommendations from this
question.
It's kept me busy reading forthe last five years.
So what do you think?
What's caught your eye?

Well, the most recent book that I finished
is one that was written by theWD 40 former CEO.
Oh, yeah.
And uh he he's now the, I thinkhe's now the emeritus chairman
or something like that, becausehe's kind of semi-retired.
Yeah.
And I'm sorry I blinked on hisname, but he's a former WD40 CEO
who wrote a book aboutleadership.

(24:47):
And I love it because it thebook is called Um Any Dumbass
Can Do It.
I think that's what it'scalled.
I don't know if I can say thathow your podcast.
I mean, he put it on the coverof his book.
And I just I I first of all, Iat this point because in my
career, I do I'm I'm readingbooks not necessarily because I
need to learn new things.

(25:07):
I'm looking for new ideas.
Of course I am.
That's obvious when you readsomething.
But the other thing I'm alsoreally appreciating is sometimes
when I get a little bit ofreassurance or affirmation of
what I have been doing, that ithas proven to be successful for
other leaders.
Because you know, you can havea bit of self-doubt, like, am I
doing the right thing?
How do I know?

(25:28):
And obviously the results inyour own organization speak for
themselves, but it's always agood feeling to see, oh, the
WD-40 CEO believes in this andhas done this.
And so I think this book isreally fabulous.
I highly recommend it.
Yeah.
And I actually believe it, youknow, like how many there are
people who are neurosurgeons.

(25:48):
Okay, I cannot do that.
That's for sure.
I cannot do that.
Yeah.
There are many things thatpeople think are so hard for
them that actually, yes, wecould do it.
Just calm down and we can dothis.

I love it.
Shanshan, thank you so much forspending time.
I really, really appreciate thework you're doing in the world.
You know what?
It's just a joy to have aconversation with you, and and
we'll do it again.
Thank you so much.

Thank you for the encouragement.

Be well.
Follow your energy.
It knows the way.
Loved this conversation, andhave so much respect for her
adventures and her willingnessto serve in somewhat of a
complex environment.
A lot of competing commitments,a lot of people with vested

(26:37):
interests, and we have a leaderhere who is navigating that with
a sense of grace.
As always, you all, thank youso much for checking in.
Appreciate you.
Take care.
Be well.

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