November 5, 2025 • 37 mins
Sunil Puri is a thought leader with over two decades of experience in leadership development, sustainability, and data analytics. Currently serving as the head of research and engagement at the Stewardship Asia Centre (SAC) in Singapore.
A Few Quotes From This Episode
- "Most leadership decisions today are not either/or. They are both/and."
- “Doing well by doing good. If it's doing well and doing good, then doing good becomes an afterthought.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership.
About Scott J. Allen
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My Approach to Hosting
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today I have Dr.
Sunil Puri, and he is a thoughtleader with over two decades of
experience in leadershipdevelopment, sustainability, and
data analytics.
What a powerful combo.
Currently serving as the headof research and engagement at
(00:20):
the Stewardship Asia Center inSingapore.
Now, sir, I am so excited forthis conversation today.
I know that we we have ageneral idea of where we're
going to go, but uh maybe youcan share a little bit more with
listeners about you.
What's maybe something that youwant them to know about your
background, and then we'll jumpinto the dialogue.
Sunil Puri (00:41):
Well, thanks for the opportunity, Scott, and thanks
for inviting me to thisconversation.
Uh, let me start on a fun note.
Uh, you introduced me as Dr.
Sunil Puri.
I am not a doctor.
Uh-huh.
Um, I started my PhD thrice,though.
So uh gave it a good shot, uh,but I realized I didn't have the
resilience and the energy topower through uh five to seven
years of work.
(01:02):
So I decided an easier route.
So I'm a researcher, I am aquasi-academic, uh, I like to
study organizations uh around uhwhat makes some organizations
do better than the others, whatmakes some leaders and boards do
better than the others.
Uh as for my background, I grewup mainly in India, as you can
guess from my accent, uh veryIndian accent.
(01:23):
Um, most of my schooling andearly work life was in India.
Uh, worked in the US for awhile in Washington, D.C.
uh with a think tank.
And then now in Singapore for afew years, uh, you know,
working uh with the with theadvocacy group and think tank
that drive these drives thestewardship sustainability
agenda.
So uh, you know, I have a wifeat home and a 16-year-old boy
(01:46):
with who is a handful.
Scott Allen (01:49):
Well, okay, a couple things.
You use the word thrice.
So in my book, you're a you'rea PhD for sure.
That's that's PhD level.
Uh that's awesome.
And and I too, uh, we have uhuh twin girls that are 15 and a
son who's 17.
So we're in a similar space ofof trying to lead as parents.
(02:10):
So we have that in common aswell.
Well, okay, so sustainabilityis a passion.
I know that governance is apassion as well, and I know that
you're bringing thisperspective of some of this work
in Asia.
And so um, what are some thingson your radar right now?
What are you seeing?
What should people know aboutuh those topics based on what
(02:30):
you're observing?
Sunil Puri (02:33):
So, uh Scott, we are living in we are living in
interesting times.
And interesting is aninteresting word to use here.
Uh, you know, the contextaround us is changing.
Uh, you know, there's a lot ofpush and pull that senior
leaders are facing in the timesthat they are operating in.
And um, what I hear from CEOsand boards, I do a fair amount
of work at the board level andat the C-suite level.
(02:53):
What I'm hearing from them isthat increasingly they are
having to operate in thepolarity zone, if you will.
Scott Allen (03:01):
Yes.
Sunil Puri (03:02):
You know, so most of their decisions are no longer
either or, they're both and.
So, you know, things like, hey,I need to focus on technology,
but I need to humanize that.
You know, I need to think aboutcompassion and empathy as well
with my employees.
I need to focus on uh drivingprofitability.
And I can tell you, Scott, uhuh, you know, CEOs are under
(03:24):
huge pressure at this point todrive the profitability agenda.
But as they do that, there isan equal pressure to think about
um, you know, wellness, mentalwellness, uh, physical wellness
of people who work with them.
Because guess what?
If they don't do that, Gen Zsare not taking it sitting down.
You know, they'll get quietquitting, they'll they'll get
into you know looking for otherjobs and so on.
(03:46):
And then I see this agendaaround uh doing well by doing
good.
How can I generateprofitability?
How can I generate longevity ofmy business or whatever
whatever I'm working on, but doit in a way that is quote
unquote sustainable, not onlyfrom an environment and society
(04:07):
standpoint, but also fromfinancial sustainability
standpoint.
Now, that's an agenda that isunder pressure because of the
global narrative, but uh CEOstell me that that is top of
their mind.
Yeah.
Scott Allen (04:18):
Well, I I love kind of where you started the
conversation right now, which isjust uh these these tensions or
the polarities that that theseindividuals are having to
navigate.
I mean, more and more and more,I think, uh of leadership as a
core activity of theseindividuals is managing these
polarities and uh navigatingthose tensions that they're
(04:40):
experiencing, where digitizationand technology is a huge
important piece of theconversation, and so is
humanity.
And so how do we balance those,right?
Sunil Puri (04:53):
Yeah, I'm not sure it's a balancing act, uh, you
know, uh Scott.
It's a both hand act.
You know, how can I make moneyby solving a challenge?
So we see CEOs who are mostsuccessful.
And even if you look at thehistory, you know, organizations
like uh uh, let's sayRockefeller group, they were
most successful because theysolved the challenge of their
times, which was energy.
(05:14):
You know, the challenge of ourtimes is whether we like it or
not, or whether some people likeit or not, it is climate
change, environment, socialinequality, you know,
geopolitics playing out, uh, youknow, a lot of unrest with
Generation Z and so on.
How can I solve those problemsin a way that can help me build
my business, that can help memake uh my business successful,
(05:36):
my business um having a longerlife, if you will.
Scott Allen (05:40):
Yep.
Well, and and thank you forthat.
Yeah, so the both and the howdo we how do we achieve both or
get closer to that space?
It's not an either-or, but it'sa both and, right?
Sunil Puri (05:52):
It's not a both hand.
And you know, there are thereare many organizations who are
able to do that.
It is just that, you know, uhorganizations that decide to not
do that are much more involume, and therefore, you know,
organizations that drive thatagenda of doing well by doing
good, they are kind of lost inthe narrative.
But uh one of the one of theone of the work my team does,
(06:12):
you know, I I had a research atmy center.
One of the work my team does isuh elevate these stories, write
about these stories, collectdata sets, help these
organizations celebrate, uh becelebrated, if you will, uh in
the business community so thatothers can look at their
examples and follow.
Scott Allen (06:31):
Tell us a couple stories.
I mean, I I would really,really love to know kind of
through your lens, um what aresome organizations that are
doing this work and doing thiswork in a noble way based on
what you're finding?
Sunil Puri (06:45):
And there are many stories.
I can give you a couple, youknow.
For instance, uh look at theTata group in India.
You know, it's a it's it's uhit's a you know, they were set
up about over 150 years ago,multi-billion dollar
organization.
66% of the share capital of alltheir entities uh sits with a
trust that that focuses just onphilanthropy, you know, and it's
(07:08):
a it's a both of theirbusinesses are hugely
profitable.
You know, they are intobuilding uh cars, they own the
brand Jaguar.
Um, I'm sure you know that.
Um, they are into financialservices, they are into retail,
they are into engineering, andeverything and anything that you
can think of.
Now, out of every rupee orevery dollar I earn, 66% of that
(07:29):
goes towards making adifference to the society.
Um, that's a large companyexample for you.
Um for instance, anotherorganization here in Singapore,
headquartered in Singapore, isREACH 52.
You know, it's an organizationthat is trying to solve for the
healthcare inadequacy ofhealthcare of half the world
population.
And that's the reason they arecalled REACH 52.
(07:50):
Wow.
So because 52% of the peopledon't have access to healthcare.
So they work with large pharmacompanies and give them access
to the bottom of the pyramid.
So they are operating in thePhilippines, they are operating
in uh, you know, Africa, theyare operating in some parts of
Asia, um, some parts of ASEAN,and so on.
Um, another example.
(08:11):
And these organizations arenot, you know, they're not
social, social enterprises.
You know, they're not doing itfrom the goodness of their
heart, they are doing it becausethey can make money.
Another organization, you know,in um headquartered in India,
um, called Ujala Cygnus.
Now, this is an organizationthat provides free medical
health care to uh the needy inIndia.
(08:34):
And so they run hospitals andthey have an interesting
business model wherein, youknow, um nobody who walks into
their hospital uh is refusedtreatment because they don't
have money.
Um you know the government ofIndia has a has a has kind of a
scheme to uh help the uh bottomof the pyramid in the country,
but because of poverty, becauseof illiteracy, people don't know
(08:56):
about it.
So they have a huge engine atthe back end processing these
claims under that scheme, butpeople are not refused medical
treatment.
Now, this company is a bittapositive.
They run, I think, um 15 or 20hospitals across the country.
Uh, it's an Abitta positivecompany.
So they're not doing it out ofthe goodness of their heart.
They are doing it because thereis a business model that can
(09:20):
drive profitability and solvethe world's problems.
And there are plenty ofexamples that we've documented
uh over the past few years, bothlarge cap and small cap.
Scott Allen (09:30):
Wow.
And and so I mean, I just Ilove the thinking of that
because I think um at times ourour minds go to that either or
so readily, it seems to me, ashuman beings.
And that mind that can go tothe both end, I think for me,
it's just a it's a beautiful wayof I I I go to like a
(09:52):
Patagonia, maybe that might beanother absolutely yeah, another
example where uh we can um uh Ithink in your phrasing, do well
by doing good.
And so a wildly successfulorganization, but also, you
know, whether it's the in theUnited States, the Black Friday
proceeds go to the environment.
(10:13):
I mean, we can be anorganization or a B corporation
that is obviously uhcontributing to society as well.
Sunil Puri (10:21):
Absolutely, and their don't buy this jacket
campaign, I think a few yearsago on a Black Friday sale day
uh is hugely popular.
So uh I think Patagonia isdoing great work uh in this
direction, and so are many othercompanies like the Ayala Group
in the Philippines, forinstance, they are doing good
work.
The Faber Castle in Europe,they uh you know they they
(10:41):
planted hundreds and thousandsof trees in Brazil to um to
source sustainable wood manyyears ago, decades ago.
And now every pencil that theymake is made out of sustainable
wood.
You know, uh so there areplenty of examples around us.
And um, I think the the thephrasing of doing well by doing
good is extremely criticalbecause it's doing well by doing
(11:02):
good, not doing well and doinggood.
Because then doing good becomesan afterthought, doing good
becomes a CSR, doing goodbecomes charity, doing good
becomes philanthropyphilanthropy.
Our thinking is, or my thinkingis that you know, you need to,
you can't tell businesses to notmake money.
You know, um, you'll bebutchered by our shareholders.
(11:23):
Businesses must make money,make tons of money, but doing do
it by solving a problem thathumanities faces.
Scott Allen (11:30):
Yeah.
Well, I I've followed foryears, I think a couple of his
books are back here, PeterDiamondis.
And he'll one phrase that heuses sometimes is the world's
biggest challenges are some ofthe world's biggest
opportunities, right?
That that uh if if we can solvefor some of these, um again,
doing well by doing good isbaked in.
Sunil Puri (11:52):
Absolutely.
Absolutely, completely agreewith that.
You know, uh I think there'sthere's a ton of money to be
made.
Um I remember WEF came up witha data that there are $10.1
trillion worth of opportunitiesevery year till 2030.
And this data is, I think, afew years old.
So $10.1 trillion worth ofbusiness opportunities in the in
(12:15):
in the environment, climate,social inequality space.
So there's a lot, there's a tonof money to be made.
We just need to thinkcreatively uh how we can unlock
uh a business model wherein wecan drive profitability in that
direction.
Scott Allen (12:31):
So I'm just I'm really, really intrigued right
now.
What are some opportunitiesthat you see?
You know, from your purview,look, if someone could figure
out X or someone could figureout Y, or these are some
organizations working some ofthose puzzles, uh, what are some
of those opportunities that yousee?
Sunil Puri (12:50):
So huge opportunities, uh Scott, and
some some off the top of my mindare what are the biggest
problems at this point?
You know, the biggest problemsare uh sustainable housing, uh,
because there are so many peoplemoving because of climate
change and so on.
There's a problem, huge problemof food security.
Can I come up with a businessmodel wherein I can, let's say,
um uh grow food uh inregenerative farms, uh, you
(13:16):
know, and if the food is likedor if the snack is liked, and
therefore, you know, there'smore business for the farmers
who are driving uh uh who arewho are using regenerative
farming, and therefore thecycle, it's an upward spiral.
Can I solve that problem?
Can I solve the problem ofclimate change?
Huge, huge, I mean the wholethe entire world is running
after that, but huge issue inthis part of the world, you
(13:37):
know.
Go to cities like uh Dhaka,like Delhi, uh, you know, um uh
even even Mumbai uh and so on.
Uh huge problem in terms ofquality of air.
Can I do something about that?
Can I can I can I come up withsome technology?
The technology that aretechnologies that are being
talked about are kind of sort ofextremely expensive and kind of
(14:00):
sort of impractical, if youwill.
Can I think of a bit betterlocal solution uh to some of
these challenges?
Problem of cybersecurity, youknow, uh, and and and and there
are a ton of organizations thatare trying to solve for that,
you know.
Um, can I do something uhsomething uh interesting in that
space?
Can I do something interestingin giving access to the bottom
(14:22):
of the pyramid for healthcare,for technology, for internet,
and so on.
So there are a ton of problemsaround us and a ton of
opportunities around us uhwaiting to be solved.
Scott Allen (14:32):
Yeah.
Well, so how do you seegovernance?
I know that that's an area ofpassion for you.
Talk a little bit about howgovernance can be a part of the
solution, or um uh how is itrelated to the conversation?
Sunil Puri (14:46):
So, you know, Scott, why are why do we see so few
organizations going on thatpath?
Because uh, you know, at theend of the day, organizations
are funded by investors, areinvested by shareholders, and
therefore they need to haveshareholders on their side,
investors on their side to drivethe direction of doing well by
(15:10):
doing good.
Now, when I look at when Iconnect that with how can a CEO
drive that action, the CEO needsthe uh support of the board.
And boards uh, you know,usually they are uh uh, you
know, if it's a listed company,they may be representative of
the largest shareholders, orthey may have uh, you know, they
may be executive directors whorun the business and so on.
(15:31):
Now, and that is an area I liketo study.
How can boards, which is thesenior most representative group
in any organization, influencethis journey of organizations to
curate business models that aredoing well by doing good?
Not only churning dollars forthe shareholders, not only
churning returns for the keyinvestors, but can the boards
(15:54):
intervene to drive that agenda?
Now they can do it in a coupleof ways.
They can do it by um supportinga strategy of the organization
that is in the doing well bydoing good space, by supporting
that vision, by hiring, youknow, one of the key jobs that a
board does is hiring the rightman or the right woman to run
(16:16):
the organization.
Can they be more um deliberatein selecting people who are uh
more driven by this doing wellby doing good agenda?
When they do capitalallocation, can they can they
keep aside funds to drive uhprojects that are doing well by
doing good, sustainabilityprojects?
When they look at incentiveschemes, can they look at in a
(16:38):
way that they are incenting notonly CEOs but their leadership
teams to drive sustainability,you know, solve the social
inequality problem and so on.
And that's how governance getsintertwined with this doing well
by doing good agenda.
I believe that boards um theyhave an amazing amount of
muscle.
It is just that uh boards, forwhatever it's worth, do not want
(17:00):
to flex that muscle.
Um, not only here in Asia, butI I hear the same stories when I
look at organizations globally.
Boards typically like to sit onthe fence uh and uh you know,
uh not lean in and uh take hardand courageous decisions.
Scott Allen (17:17):
Why do you think that is?
What what uh what comes to mindfor you uh when you think about
that dynamic?
I mean, uh I think it wasstrategy and vision, hiring uh C
C level executives that arethat that value what what we
value, uh providing incentives.
There was a fourth that I justlost in my capital allocation.
(17:38):
Okay, allocation.
Uh capital allocation.
Uh, but you're seeing that manyof them are kind of sitting on
the fence.
And so what um what is that?
What do you think?
Sunil Puri (17:50):
So, you know, uh uh Scott, boards uh it's a very
close-knit community.
So, and I can give you theexamples from this part of the
world.
Obviously, I don't uh I haven'tstudied boards in the US and
Europe, I can tell you aboutAsia and Pacific.
It's a very tight-knit uhcommunity, and uh a lot of
people call it an old boys clubbecause you know, uh literally
(18:10):
like people are old, andliterally there is equity on
having either white hair and nohair or no hair.
Uh and uh and therefore, youknow, uh usually when companies
bring independent directors onboard, these are friends and
friends of friends.
While there is everyorganization, every board is
supposed to have a process, andthere's a nominating committee
(18:32):
that looks at who should come inas an independent director.
Usually there is very littlethought given to it.
Scott Allen (18:38):
Yeah.
Sunil Puri (18:38):
And therefore, you know, the chairperson uh or the
or the chair chairman comes CEOhas a huge leverage in terms of
bringing whoever he or she uhdesires to bring.
Usually it is, hey, you know,uh, do you know this person?
Uh I think he's a good guy,let's bring him on board.
Couple that with very littleeffort in evaluating the
(19:00):
performance of the board, inevaluating the skills inventory
of the board.
And if you if you combine thetwo, um, this is a cocktail that
is kind of sort of playing out,and this is the cocktail that
is extremely dangerous.
So you have a lot of oldpeople, uh, and I'm not young
either, so you know, it'sstrange that comes from me.
You have a bunch of uh oldpeople running businesses that
(19:22):
are trying to solve the currentday problems.
And um, the other, the other,the other thing I see is that,
you know, again, when you lookat the diversity at the boards,
and I'm not only talking aboutgender diversity, usually see it
dominated by charteredaccountants and lawyers.
So we need a little morediversity.
We need to open up the boards alittle to multi-generations
(19:44):
because the problems we aretrying to solve for are the
problems of the current day.
And um also we need boards whoare slightly more risk-taking.
And again, I need to, I need toI need to put a caveat there
that you know, um, there are aton of regulations and
compliance requirements that theboards need to work in.
The corporate governance codesand in multiple jurisdictions
(20:05):
are fairly tight.
So while they have to walk thetight rope, they need to be a
little more courageous, a littlemore open, a little more
welcoming, and a little moreinclusive in how they curate
these boards.
Scott Allen (20:17):
Yeah.
Well, and they may not evenhave been exposed to the doing
well by doing good mindset.
Am I accurate in saying that?
That maybe they they werewildly successful in their own
right, but maybe in their timeof success, it wasn't
necessarily a mindset that bothuh the both and mindset that um
(20:38):
drove their work.
So their level of understandingabout it may be limited, just
even as a thing.
Sunil Puri (20:45):
Yeah, no, that's that that's true.
Uh, interestingly, Scott, so wewe we did a research last year
uh where we collected data setsfrom 11 countries.
We interviewed and surveyedabout 700 board directors across
uh Asia and Pacific, right fromIndia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka in
South Asia, all the way tillAustralia, Japan, and uh New
Zealand and Pacific andSingapore, Malaysia, and
(21:08):
between, and a bunch of othercountries in between.
So when we asked them uh aboutuh uh their view on doing well
by doing good, most of the boarddirectors kind of concurred
that, hey, you know, no, this isobvious.
You know, we need to we need tosolve this challenge, we need
to solve these problems and soon.
But then what are you doing tosolve that problem?
We'd got very little on thatagenda.
(21:31):
So there's a lot of chatterthat we see uh in media or
otherwise around, hey, you know,the boards need to make a
difference, uh, organizationsneed to make a difference.
While there's a lot of chatter,the problem is there is a lot
of chatter, you know, inchatter.
So while there's a lot of talk,there's very little action.
And then we try to identify howare boards spending time.
(21:52):
So boards are spending the bulkof their time in looking at
historical financial data,looking at risk and compliance
and audits, and looking at uhyou know, capital allocation.
These, in my mind, arefundamental fiduciary
supervisory responsibilities.
They are not spending enoughtime on what I call in my
(22:14):
research new frontierresponsibilities, like let's
talk about sustainability, let'stalk about leadership, let's
talk about culture, let's talkabout artificial intelligence,
let's talk about cybersecurity.
So the boards are spending verylittle time.
And when we ask them why, theytell us that they are under huge
pressure from the shareholdersto spend as much time as they
(22:34):
can on compliance and fiduciaryresponsibilities.
Nobody wants to get in troubleat the end of the day, right?
Scott Allen (22:40):
Yeah, but it's also probably their comfort zone, I
would imagine.
Yeah.
Like that's what they know.
Uh ideating uh in an in anindustry that maybe they have
less familiarity with.
So it would seem to me at leastpart of the conversation might
be that that's home for them.
Sunil Puri (22:59):
True, that's home for them.
And you know, uh, and andthat's been home for them for
many years.
And and uh, you know, the funnypart is that a lot of boards
are not even open to learning,you know, because remember,
these are people who are uh, youknow, my age plus 20 years, so
or your age plus 30 years.
And these are people who havehuge egos, they've been CEOs uh
(23:21):
in the 80s or 90s, and uh, youknow, uh they are not happy to
sit down and learn.
And and and Scott, I'mgeneralizing here.
So I'm stereotyping here, I'mgeneralizing here, but it's just
so hard to get them in the roomand tell them, hey, you need to
uh you need to wake up to therealities of the world today.
It's so hard.
(23:42):
And that's the battle that uhyou know um uh we we we end up
fighting when we work with theseboards.
How do we energize them?
How do we tell them what is theright thing to do?
How do we motivate them?
Scott Allen (23:54):
Yeah, well, and that's that's it would seem to
me like the million-dollarquestion is how do we influence
them to make this a priority?
How do we motivate?
How do we inspire, mobilize?
And and to your point, I thinkthere's probably a lot of
agreement that that, yeah, thisis important, but then to your
(24:16):
point, uh there's very, verylittle action, and how do we
inspire that action?
Any any thoughts on that front?
Have you any indicators, anywins that you can report when it
comes to that conversation?
Because that's the heart ofleadership, right?
That's the heart of leadership.
Sunil Puri (24:33):
That's the heart of leadership, and that's that's
the puzzle that we are trying tosolve for, Scott, here in
Stewardship Asia Center.
We are a small think tank setup by Tamasek Holdings.
Tamasek is the um uh kind ofsovereign investment fund here
in uh Singapore.
They set us up about 10 yearsago to help leaders, both you
know, government and privatesector leaders, uh, leaders
(24:55):
across multiple levels, uh,mid-level, C-suite boards, help
them ignite their what we callsteward leadership, which is the
genuine desire and persistenceto create a collective better
future.
We believe that you know,incentives, taxes, they are
necessary, but they are notsufficient to make the world a
(25:15):
better place.
It needs to come from anotherspace.
And that's the space that wecall steward leadership, which
is a combination of values andpurpose.
Now we need to we need to workwith these boards and C-suite
executives and ignite somevalues, values such as long-term
thinking.
You know, how can I thinkbeyond quarters, uh quarter on
(25:36):
quarter?
Uh, values such as ownershipmentality.
If somebody has to solve thesustainability problem, it is me
as a board director, me as aCEO, my organization, my board,
uh, maybe my country.
We can't look at uh global uh,you know, um global uh
organizations to help us solve,or we can't just look at the
governments to solve thatproblem of sustainability.
(25:58):
We also need to be more um openabout what we call creative
resilience, you know, because weneed to innovate, we need to
create better business models.
Uh and and and and the value,the fourth value is that of
interdependence.
How do I understand that, youknow, when I give more, I get
more?
And that's the model that a lotof large organizations that
(26:20):
have been hugely successfulknown for.
Setting up cities, setting upum, you know, opening schools,
opening hospitals uh in theircampus so that you know the
employees are happy because whenI give more, guess what?
I get more.
And the fifth value, then thefifth value that we espouse is
that of what we call ethicalintegrity.
How do I do it in a way thatnot only ticks the boxes in
(26:43):
terms of being above law, butbeing the right thing to do?
Ethics and integrity.
So, you know, boards that areable to get that are are boards
that do well.
Now, if if somebody was to askme a formula around how to do
that, I would say get the rightchair.
If you have the right chair whois motivated by doing well, by
(27:04):
doing good, right chair whobelieves in long-term thinking,
interdependence, uh, you know,ownership mentality, ethical
integrity, and innovation, he orshe will steer the board in the
right direction.
Now, um, and the problem is,you know, uh it's a very
close-knit community.
So getting, and there are, andand to be fair, there are some
rock star chairs that I haveinterviewed or met uh in my
(27:27):
research.
And um, you know, these arethese are people who are trying
to drive an action, trying tonudge their CEOs, even arm twist
their CEOs to do to do well bydoing good.
Scott Allen (27:38):
Yeah.
Last question, I just because Iwant to dive a little bit
deeper, but in creativeresilience, would you talk a
little bit about creativeresilience?
I like that phrasing.
I've never heard that phrasingbefore, but how are you thinking
about that?
Sunil Puri (27:54):
So um, doing well by doing good is a very difficult
journey, uh, Scott, as you canimagine.
If I'm a if I'm a if I'm abusiness leader um and I go to
my uh board or I go to myshareholders and tell them, hey,
you know, I want to spend abillion dollars uh solving the
um uh you know healthcare issueuh in my in my community.
(28:14):
You know, uh, and a lot ofthese investors, a lot of these
shareholders may not agree tothat.
So what we mean by creativeresilience is one, having the
resilience to take those knocks,you know, hear a no 200 times
and still think about the agendathat you are pursuing.
And we add the word creative tothat because we need to do it
in an innovative way.
(28:35):
Because if I go to my board andI go to my shareholders and
tell them, hey, guess what?
There is a business model tweakthat we can make such that I we
can we can increase theshareholder returns by X percent
and also be known for being anorganization that is solving a
solving an existential crisis.
That is the language that uhyour shareholders or boards will
(28:58):
understand.
And that in my mind is abeautiful example of creative
resilience.
Scott Allen (29:03):
Well, and there is that word and again, right?
And we can also accomplishthis.
Sunil Puri (29:10):
I know, and uh yeah, and and a lot of a lot of there
are to be fair, you know, thereare there are a lot of
well-meaning CEOs, there are alot of well-meaning
organizations.
I think they are doing theirbit.
It is just that we don't haveenough.
Scott Allen (29:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, I I I I've saidit on the podcast a couple
times, and I don't know if I'vesaid it recently, but you know,
how do we as humans uh evolve toa place where we can think long
term, we can uh think in thatboth end from a natural place.
(29:44):
Um, you know, we we do see thatinterdependence that exists.
And I mean it's it's it seemslike it's a it's a human
condition.
It's it's a challenge for us ashumans to really prioritize
those.
The fact that you are out therein the world.
World, pushing, pulling,motivating, inspiring, engaging,
(30:05):
mobilizing?
I have great respect.
I really do.
And trying to better understandhow we do that work.
And again, um, doing well bydoing good.
Um, sir, I always any well,real quick before I wind down,
anything else you want to sayfor to listeners so that they um
(30:25):
is there anything that Ihaven't asked you that you think
is critical to thisconversation that uh people I'll
put some links in the shownotes so people can learn more
about you and the organization.
But uh anything that stands outfor you that I've missed?
Obviously there's a lot, butyeah, obviously there's a lot.
Sunil Puri (30:44):
I would I I would I would again uh re-emphasize on
doing well and doing good versusdoing well by doing good.
Organizations that embracedoing well by doing good, where
doing good is not anafterthought, are organizations
that are able to driveprofitability and uh be
successful for a much longerperiod.
(31:04):
So doing well by doing good isthe mantra that I would uh love
to leave uh our listeners with.
Scott Allen (31:09):
Okay.
Doing well by doing good.
I always close out theseconversations with uh a question
and it's uh pretty basic.
But what what's caught yourattention in recent times?
What have you been listening toor streaming or reading?
Um, it might have something todo with what we've just
discussed.
It may have nothing to do withwhat we've just discussed, but
(31:29):
what might listeners beinterested in that's caught your
attention?
Sunil Puri (31:33):
Ah, that's an interesting one.
So if I think about the uhbooks on my bedside, uh Scott,
as of now, uh one of the booksI'm reading reading is uh so
there's one book that I'mreading and the and another book
that is kind of I read it on aloop.
So I finish it and I read itagain, I finish it and read it
again, and I've been doing thatfor a few years now.
(31:54):
So the book that I've read I'mreading now is uh called Growing
the Pie uh by uh by AlexEdmonds.
So he talks about um thephilosophy that we were
discussing about that, you know,hey, the pie is much bigger.
We just need to make sure thatyou know we are trying to solve
for a big problem and there'smoney to be made for everyone.
(32:14):
It's a beautiful book.
I would recommend uh you toread it if you have time,
growing the pie, Alex Edmonds.
And the book that I read on aloop, uh Scott, is called uh
Autobiography of a Yogi.
Have you heard of that book?
I haven't, no.
It's by Yogananda Paramahansa,and uh it's a fairly well-known
book.
A lot of CEOs uh uh I uh youknow, I I I remember reading
(32:38):
Steve Jobs uh was a big fan ofYogananda Paramahansa, and um so
were a bunch of other CEOs.
So it's called Autobiography ofa Yogi.
It talks about the need forinner journey for every
individual.
Wow, it talks about the factthat individuals and and and
remember this was written about80 or 90 years ago, I think in
(32:58):
the 1940s or thereabout.
And um, what he talks about isthe need for us to focus less on
religion, more on spirituality,less on dogmas, more on uh you
know our inner growth, our innerspiritual growth.
So he talks about yoga, hetalks about uh spirituality, he
(33:19):
talks about um, you know, in theinner journey that he undertook
as a as an ascetic or as asaint uh during his lifetime.
So again, a book that I wouldhugely recommend.
And it's a book that is uh, Iwould say not the easiest one to
read, uh, because it jumps fromone place to the other.
And that's the reason I like tokeep reading it um on a loop,
(33:41):
literally.
Scott Allen (33:42):
Oh, that's wonderful.
I've I've never come across aguest who said that, that it's
just reading on a loop.
And I imagine as you're loopingaround, it's there's different
meanings every time as you readread it.
Sunil Puri (33:53):
Absolutely, different meanings and different
aspects that I see.
So I would recommend uh to thelisteners uh consider reading
autobiography of a yogi byYogananda Paramahansa.
Scott Allen (34:05):
Okay, I will put links in the show notes so that
people can access those.
Uh, sir, I appreciate your timetoday.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for the good work you'redoing in the world, trying to
help us understand literallysome of the biggest questions.
Sunil Puri (34:19):
Thanks for inviting me, Scott.
It's a pleasure.
Scott Allen (34:22):
Well, be well.
Take care.
Thank you.
I don't have a ton to say here.
I mean, doing well by doinggood.
I think maybe I messed that upa couple times in the episode,
but I'm gonna repeat it one moretime.
Doing well by doing good.
A wonderful mantra, a wonderfulway to approach the work.
(34:43):
And I am so thankful for thatconversation.
And I'm thankful for all ofyou.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
As always, gosh, it's been fiveplus years now.
I very, very much appreciateyou.
Take care, all.
Bye bye.
Okay, everybody.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today I have Dr.
Sunil Puri, and he is a thoughtleader with over two decades of
experience in leadershipdevelopment, sustainability, and
data analytics.
What a powerful combo.
Currently serving as the headof research and engagement at
(00:20):
the Stewardship Asia Center inSingapore.
Now, sir, I am so excited forthis conversation today.
I know that we we have ageneral idea of where we're
going to go, but uh maybe youcan share a little bit more with
listeners about you.
What's maybe something that youwant them to know about your
background, and then we'll jumpinto the dialogue.
Sunil Puri (00:41):
Well, thanks for the opportunity, Scott, and thanks
for inviting me to thisconversation.
Uh, let me start on a fun note.
Uh, you introduced me as Dr.
Sunil Puri.
I am not a doctor.
Uh-huh.
Um, I started my PhD thrice,though.
So uh gave it a good shot, uh,but I realized I didn't have the
resilience and the energy topower through uh five to seven
years of work.
(01:02):
So I decided an easier route.
So I'm a researcher, I am aquasi-academic, uh, I like to
study organizations uh around uhwhat makes some organizations
do better than the others, whatmakes some leaders and boards do
better than the others.
Uh as for my background, I grewup mainly in India, as you can
guess from my accent, uh veryIndian accent.
(01:23):
Um, most of my schooling andearly work life was in India.
Uh, worked in the US for awhile in Washington, D.C.
uh with a think tank.
And then now in Singapore for afew years, uh, you know,
working uh with the with theadvocacy group and think tank
that drive these drives thestewardship sustainability
agenda.
So uh, you know, I have a wifeat home and a 16-year-old boy
(01:46):
with who is a handful.
Scott Allen (01:49):
Well, okay, a couple things.
You use the word thrice.
So in my book, you're a you'rea PhD for sure.
That's that's PhD level.
Uh that's awesome.
And and I too, uh, we have uhuh twin girls that are 15 and a
son who's 17.
So we're in a similar space ofof trying to lead as parents.
(02:10):
So we have that in common aswell.
Well, okay, so sustainabilityis a passion.
I know that governance is apassion as well, and I know that
you're bringing thisperspective of some of this work
in Asia.
And so um, what are some thingson your radar right now?
What are you seeing?
What should people know aboutuh those topics based on what
(02:30):
you're observing?
Sunil Puri (02:33):
So, uh Scott, we are living in we are living in
interesting times.
And interesting is aninteresting word to use here.
Uh, you know, the contextaround us is changing.
Uh, you know, there's a lot ofpush and pull that senior
leaders are facing in the timesthat they are operating in.
And um, what I hear from CEOsand boards, I do a fair amount
of work at the board level andat the C-suite level.
(02:53):
What I'm hearing from them isthat increasingly they are
having to operate in thepolarity zone, if you will.
Scott Allen (03:01):
Yes.
Sunil Puri (03:02):
You know, so most of their decisions are no longer
either or, they're both and.
So, you know, things like, hey,I need to focus on technology,
but I need to humanize that.
You know, I need to think aboutcompassion and empathy as well
with my employees.
I need to focus on uh drivingprofitability.
And I can tell you, Scott, uhuh, you know, CEOs are under
(03:24):
huge pressure at this point todrive the profitability agenda.
But as they do that, there isan equal pressure to think about
um, you know, wellness, mentalwellness, uh, physical wellness
of people who work with them.
Because guess what?
If they don't do that, Gen Zsare not taking it sitting down.
You know, they'll get quietquitting, they'll they'll get
into you know looking for otherjobs and so on.
(03:46):
And then I see this agendaaround uh doing well by doing
good.
How can I generateprofitability?
How can I generate longevity ofmy business or whatever
whatever I'm working on, but doit in a way that is quote
unquote sustainable, not onlyfrom an environment and society
(04:07):
standpoint, but also fromfinancial sustainability
standpoint.
Now, that's an agenda that isunder pressure because of the
global narrative, but uh CEOstell me that that is top of
their mind.
Yeah.
Scott Allen (04:18):
Well, I I love kind of where you started the
conversation right now, which isjust uh these these tensions or
the polarities that that theseindividuals are having to
navigate.
I mean, more and more and more,I think, uh of leadership as a
core activity of theseindividuals is managing these
polarities and uh navigatingthose tensions that they're
(04:40):
experiencing, where digitizationand technology is a huge
important piece of theconversation, and so is
humanity.
And so how do we balance those,right?
Sunil Puri (04:53):
Yeah, I'm not sure it's a balancing act, uh, you
know, uh Scott.
It's a both hand act.
You know, how can I make moneyby solving a challenge?
So we see CEOs who are mostsuccessful.
And even if you look at thehistory, you know, organizations
like uh uh, let's sayRockefeller group, they were
most successful because theysolved the challenge of their
times, which was energy.
(05:14):
You know, the challenge of ourtimes is whether we like it or
not, or whether some people likeit or not, it is climate
change, environment, socialinequality, you know,
geopolitics playing out, uh, youknow, a lot of unrest with
Generation Z and so on.
How can I solve those problemsin a way that can help me build
my business, that can help memake uh my business successful,
(05:36):
my business um having a longerlife, if you will.
Scott Allen (05:40):
Yep.
Well, and and thank you forthat.
Yeah, so the both and the howdo we how do we achieve both or
get closer to that space?
It's not an either-or, but it'sa both and, right?
Sunil Puri (05:52):
It's not a both hand.
And you know, there are thereare many organizations who are
able to do that.
It is just that, you know, uhorganizations that decide to not
do that are much more involume, and therefore, you know,
organizations that drive thatagenda of doing well by doing
good, they are kind of lost inthe narrative.
But uh one of the one of theone of the work my team does,
(06:12):
you know, I I had a research atmy center.
One of the work my team does isuh elevate these stories, write
about these stories, collectdata sets, help these
organizations celebrate, uh becelebrated, if you will, uh in
the business community so thatothers can look at their
examples and follow.
Scott Allen (06:31):
Tell us a couple stories.
I mean, I I would really,really love to know kind of
through your lens, um what aresome organizations that are
doing this work and doing thiswork in a noble way based on
what you're finding?
Sunil Puri (06:45):
And there are many stories.
I can give you a couple, youknow.
For instance, uh look at theTata group in India.
You know, it's a it's it's uhit's a you know, they were set
up about over 150 years ago,multi-billion dollar
organization.
66% of the share capital of alltheir entities uh sits with a
trust that that focuses just onphilanthropy, you know, and it's
(07:08):
a it's a both of theirbusinesses are hugely
profitable.
You know, they are intobuilding uh cars, they own the
brand Jaguar.
Um, I'm sure you know that.
Um, they are into financialservices, they are into retail,
they are into engineering, andeverything and anything that you
can think of.
Now, out of every rupee orevery dollar I earn, 66% of that
(07:29):
goes towards making adifference to the society.
Um, that's a large companyexample for you.
Um for instance, anotherorganization here in Singapore,
headquartered in Singapore, isREACH 52.
You know, it's an organizationthat is trying to solve for the
healthcare inadequacy ofhealthcare of half the world
population.
And that's the reason they arecalled REACH 52.
(07:50):
Wow.
So because 52% of the peopledon't have access to healthcare.
So they work with large pharmacompanies and give them access
to the bottom of the pyramid.
So they are operating in thePhilippines, they are operating
in uh, you know, Africa, theyare operating in some parts of
Asia, um, some parts of ASEAN,and so on.
Um, another example.
(08:11):
And these organizations arenot, you know, they're not
social, social enterprises.
You know, they're not doing itfrom the goodness of their
heart, they are doing it becausethey can make money.
Another organization, you know,in um headquartered in India,
um, called Ujala Cygnus.
Now, this is an organizationthat provides free medical
health care to uh the needy inIndia.
(08:34):
And so they run hospitals andthey have an interesting
business model wherein, youknow, um nobody who walks into
their hospital uh is refusedtreatment because they don't
have money.
Um you know the government ofIndia has a has a has kind of a
scheme to uh help the uh bottomof the pyramid in the country,
but because of poverty, becauseof illiteracy, people don't know
(08:56):
about it.
So they have a huge engine atthe back end processing these
claims under that scheme, butpeople are not refused medical
treatment.
Now, this company is a bittapositive.
They run, I think, um 15 or 20hospitals across the country.
Uh, it's an Abitta positivecompany.
So they're not doing it out ofthe goodness of their heart.
They are doing it because thereis a business model that can
(09:20):
drive profitability and solvethe world's problems.
And there are plenty ofexamples that we've documented
uh over the past few years, bothlarge cap and small cap.
Scott Allen (09:30):
Wow.
And and so I mean, I just Ilove the thinking of that
because I think um at times ourour minds go to that either or
so readily, it seems to me, ashuman beings.
And that mind that can go tothe both end, I think for me,
it's just a it's a beautiful wayof I I I go to like a
(09:52):
Patagonia, maybe that might beanother absolutely yeah, another
example where uh we can um uh Ithink in your phrasing, do well
by doing good.
And so a wildly successfulorganization, but also, you
know, whether it's the in theUnited States, the Black Friday
proceeds go to the environment.
(10:13):
I mean, we can be anorganization or a B corporation
that is obviously uhcontributing to society as well.
Sunil Puri (10:21):
Absolutely, and their don't buy this jacket
campaign, I think a few yearsago on a Black Friday sale day
uh is hugely popular.
So uh I think Patagonia isdoing great work uh in this
direction, and so are many othercompanies like the Ayala Group
in the Philippines, forinstance, they are doing good
work.
The Faber Castle in Europe,they uh you know they they
(10:41):
planted hundreds and thousandsof trees in Brazil to um to
source sustainable wood manyyears ago, decades ago.
And now every pencil that theymake is made out of sustainable
wood.
You know, uh so there areplenty of examples around us.
And um, I think the the thephrasing of doing well by doing
good is extremely criticalbecause it's doing well by doing
(11:02):
good, not doing well and doinggood.
Because then doing good becomesan afterthought, doing good
becomes a CSR, doing goodbecomes charity, doing good
becomes philanthropyphilanthropy.
Our thinking is, or my thinkingis that you know, you need to,
you can't tell businesses to notmake money.
You know, um, you'll bebutchered by our shareholders.
(11:23):
Businesses must make money,make tons of money, but doing do
it by solving a problem thathumanities faces.
Scott Allen (11:30):
Yeah.
Well, I I've followed foryears, I think a couple of his
books are back here, PeterDiamondis.
And he'll one phrase that heuses sometimes is the world's
biggest challenges are some ofthe world's biggest
opportunities, right?
That that uh if if we can solvefor some of these, um again,
doing well by doing good isbaked in.
Sunil Puri (11:52):
Absolutely.
Absolutely, completely agreewith that.
You know, uh I think there'sthere's a ton of money to be
made.
Um I remember WEF came up witha data that there are $10.1
trillion worth of opportunitiesevery year till 2030.
And this data is, I think, afew years old.
So $10.1 trillion worth ofbusiness opportunities in the in
(12:15):
in the environment, climate,social inequality space.
So there's a lot, there's a tonof money to be made.
We just need to thinkcreatively uh how we can unlock
uh a business model wherein wecan drive profitability in that
direction.
Scott Allen (12:31):
So I'm just I'm really, really intrigued right
now.
What are some opportunitiesthat you see?
You know, from your purview,look, if someone could figure
out X or someone could figureout Y, or these are some
organizations working some ofthose puzzles, uh, what are some
of those opportunities that yousee?
Sunil Puri (12:50):
So huge opportunities, uh Scott, and
some some off the top of my mindare what are the biggest
problems at this point?
You know, the biggest problemsare uh sustainable housing, uh,
because there are so many peoplemoving because of climate
change and so on.
There's a problem, huge problemof food security.
Can I come up with a businessmodel wherein I can, let's say,
um uh grow food uh inregenerative farms, uh, you
(13:16):
know, and if the food is likedor if the snack is liked, and
therefore, you know, there'smore business for the farmers
who are driving uh uh who arewho are using regenerative
farming, and therefore thecycle, it's an upward spiral.
Can I solve that problem?
Can I solve the problem ofclimate change?
Huge, huge, I mean the wholethe entire world is running
after that, but huge issue inthis part of the world, you
(13:37):
know.
Go to cities like uh Dhaka,like Delhi, uh, you know, um uh
even even Mumbai uh and so on.
Uh huge problem in terms ofquality of air.
Can I do something about that?
Can I can I can I come up withsome technology?
The technology that aretechnologies that are being
talked about are kind of sort ofextremely expensive and kind of
(14:00):
sort of impractical, if youwill.
Can I think of a bit betterlocal solution uh to some of
these challenges?
Problem of cybersecurity, youknow, uh, and and and and there
are a ton of organizations thatare trying to solve for that,
you know.
Um, can I do something uhsomething uh interesting in that
space?
Can I do something interestingin giving access to the bottom
(14:22):
of the pyramid for healthcare,for technology, for internet,
and so on.
So there are a ton of problemsaround us and a ton of
opportunities around us uhwaiting to be solved.
Scott Allen (14:32):
Yeah.
Well, so how do you seegovernance?
I know that that's an area ofpassion for you.
Talk a little bit about howgovernance can be a part of the
solution, or um uh how is itrelated to the conversation?
Sunil Puri (14:46):
So, you know, Scott, why are why do we see so few
organizations going on thatpath?
Because uh, you know, at theend of the day, organizations
are funded by investors, areinvested by shareholders, and
therefore they need to haveshareholders on their side,
investors on their side to drivethe direction of doing well by
(15:10):
doing good.
Now, when I look at when Iconnect that with how can a CEO
drive that action, the CEO needsthe uh support of the board.
And boards uh, you know,usually they are uh uh, you
know, if it's a listed company,they may be representative of
the largest shareholders, orthey may have uh, you know, they
may be executive directors whorun the business and so on.
(15:31):
Now, and that is an area I liketo study.
How can boards, which is thesenior most representative group
in any organization, influencethis journey of organizations to
curate business models that aredoing well by doing good?
Not only churning dollars forthe shareholders, not only
churning returns for the keyinvestors, but can the boards
(15:54):
intervene to drive that agenda?
Now they can do it in a coupleof ways.
They can do it by um supportinga strategy of the organization
that is in the doing well bydoing good space, by supporting
that vision, by hiring, youknow, one of the key jobs that a
board does is hiring the rightman or the right woman to run
(16:16):
the organization.
Can they be more um deliberatein selecting people who are uh
more driven by this doing wellby doing good agenda?
When they do capitalallocation, can they can they
keep aside funds to drive uhprojects that are doing well by
doing good, sustainabilityprojects?
When they look at incentiveschemes, can they look at in a
(16:38):
way that they are incenting notonly CEOs but their leadership
teams to drive sustainability,you know, solve the social
inequality problem and so on.
And that's how governance getsintertwined with this doing well
by doing good agenda.
I believe that boards um theyhave an amazing amount of
muscle.
It is just that uh boards, forwhatever it's worth, do not want
(17:00):
to flex that muscle.
Um, not only here in Asia, butI I hear the same stories when I
look at organizations globally.
Boards typically like to sit onthe fence uh and uh you know,
uh not lean in and uh take hardand courageous decisions.
Scott Allen (17:17):
Why do you think that is?
What what uh what comes to mindfor you uh when you think about
that dynamic?
I mean, uh I think it wasstrategy and vision, hiring uh C
C level executives that arethat that value what what we
value, uh providing incentives.
There was a fourth that I justlost in my capital allocation.
(17:38):
Okay, allocation.
Uh capital allocation.
Uh, but you're seeing that manyof them are kind of sitting on
the fence.
And so what um what is that?
What do you think?
Sunil Puri (17:50):
So, you know, uh uh Scott, boards uh it's a very
close-knit community.
So, and I can give you theexamples from this part of the
world.
Obviously, I don't uh I haven'tstudied boards in the US and
Europe, I can tell you aboutAsia and Pacific.
It's a very tight-knit uhcommunity, and uh a lot of
people call it an old boys clubbecause you know, uh literally
(18:10):
like people are old, andliterally there is equity on
having either white hair and nohair or no hair.
Uh and uh and therefore, youknow, uh usually when companies
bring independent directors onboard, these are friends and
friends of friends.
While there is everyorganization, every board is
supposed to have a process, andthere's a nominating committee
(18:32):
that looks at who should come inas an independent director.
Usually there is very littlethought given to it.
Scott Allen (18:38):
Yeah.
Sunil Puri (18:38):
And therefore, you know, the chairperson uh or the
or the chair chairman comes CEOhas a huge leverage in terms of
bringing whoever he or she uhdesires to bring.
Usually it is, hey, you know,uh, do you know this person?
Uh I think he's a good guy,let's bring him on board.
Couple that with very littleeffort in evaluating the
(19:00):
performance of the board, inevaluating the skills inventory
of the board.
And if you if you combine thetwo, um, this is a cocktail that
is kind of sort of playing out,and this is the cocktail that
is extremely dangerous.
So you have a lot of oldpeople, uh, and I'm not young
either, so you know, it'sstrange that comes from me.
You have a bunch of uh oldpeople running businesses that
(19:22):
are trying to solve the currentday problems.
And um, the other, the other,the other thing I see is that,
you know, again, when you lookat the diversity at the boards,
and I'm not only talking aboutgender diversity, usually see it
dominated by charteredaccountants and lawyers.
So we need a little morediversity.
We need to open up the boards alittle to multi-generations
(19:44):
because the problems we aretrying to solve for are the
problems of the current day.
And um also we need boards whoare slightly more risk-taking.
And again, I need to, I need toI need to put a caveat there
that you know, um, there are aton of regulations and
compliance requirements that theboards need to work in.
The corporate governance codesand in multiple jurisdictions
(20:05):
are fairly tight.
So while they have to walk thetight rope, they need to be a
little more courageous, a littlemore open, a little more
welcoming, and a little moreinclusive in how they curate
these boards.
Scott Allen (20:17):
Yeah.
Well, and they may not evenhave been exposed to the doing
well by doing good mindset.
Am I accurate in saying that?
That maybe they they werewildly successful in their own
right, but maybe in their timeof success, it wasn't
necessarily a mindset that bothuh the both and mindset that um
(20:38):
drove their work.
So their level of understandingabout it may be limited, just
even as a thing.
Sunil Puri (20:45):
Yeah, no, that's that that's true.
Uh, interestingly, Scott, so wewe we did a research last year
uh where we collected data setsfrom 11 countries.
We interviewed and surveyedabout 700 board directors across
uh Asia and Pacific, right fromIndia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka in
South Asia, all the way tillAustralia, Japan, and uh New
Zealand and Pacific andSingapore, Malaysia, and
(21:08):
between, and a bunch of othercountries in between.
So when we asked them uh aboutuh uh their view on doing well
by doing good, most of the boarddirectors kind of concurred
that, hey, you know, no, this isobvious.
You know, we need to we need tosolve this challenge, we need
to solve these problems and soon.
But then what are you doing tosolve that problem?
We'd got very little on thatagenda.
(21:31):
So there's a lot of chatterthat we see uh in media or
otherwise around, hey, you know,the boards need to make a
difference, uh, organizationsneed to make a difference.
While there's a lot of chatter,the problem is there is a lot
of chatter, you know, inchatter.
So while there's a lot of talk,there's very little action.
And then we try to identify howare boards spending time.
(21:52):
So boards are spending the bulkof their time in looking at
historical financial data,looking at risk and compliance
and audits, and looking at uhyou know, capital allocation.
These, in my mind, arefundamental fiduciary
supervisory responsibilities.
They are not spending enoughtime on what I call in my
(22:14):
research new frontierresponsibilities, like let's
talk about sustainability, let'stalk about leadership, let's
talk about culture, let's talkabout artificial intelligence,
let's talk about cybersecurity.
So the boards are spending verylittle time.
And when we ask them why, theytell us that they are under huge
pressure from the shareholdersto spend as much time as they
(22:34):
can on compliance and fiduciaryresponsibilities.
Nobody wants to get in troubleat the end of the day, right?
Scott Allen (22:40):
Yeah, but it's also probably their comfort zone, I
would imagine.
Yeah.
Like that's what they know.
Uh ideating uh in an in anindustry that maybe they have
less familiarity with.
So it would seem to me at leastpart of the conversation might
be that that's home for them.
Sunil Puri (22:59):
True, that's home for them.
And you know, uh, and andthat's been home for them for
many years.
And and uh, you know, the funnypart is that a lot of boards
are not even open to learning,you know, because remember,
these are people who are uh, youknow, my age plus 20 years, so
or your age plus 30 years.
And these are people who havehuge egos, they've been CEOs uh
(23:21):
in the 80s or 90s, and uh, youknow, uh they are not happy to
sit down and learn.
And and and Scott, I'mgeneralizing here.
So I'm stereotyping here, I'mgeneralizing here, but it's just
so hard to get them in the roomand tell them, hey, you need to
uh you need to wake up to therealities of the world today.
It's so hard.
(23:42):
And that's the battle that uhyou know um uh we we we end up
fighting when we work with theseboards.
How do we energize them?
How do we tell them what is theright thing to do?
How do we motivate them?
Scott Allen (23:54):
Yeah, well, and that's that's it would seem to
me like the million-dollarquestion is how do we influence
them to make this a priority?
How do we motivate?
How do we inspire, mobilize?
And and to your point, I thinkthere's probably a lot of
agreement that that, yeah, thisis important, but then to your
(24:16):
point, uh there's very, verylittle action, and how do we
inspire that action?
Any any thoughts on that front?
Have you any indicators, anywins that you can report when it
comes to that conversation?
Because that's the heart ofleadership, right?
That's the heart of leadership.
Sunil Puri (24:33):
That's the heart of leadership, and that's that's
the puzzle that we are trying tosolve for, Scott, here in
Stewardship Asia Center.
We are a small think tank setup by Tamasek Holdings.
Tamasek is the um uh kind ofsovereign investment fund here
in uh Singapore.
They set us up about 10 yearsago to help leaders, both you
know, government and privatesector leaders, uh, leaders
(24:55):
across multiple levels, uh,mid-level, C-suite boards, help
them ignite their what we callsteward leadership, which is the
genuine desire and persistenceto create a collective better
future.
We believe that you know,incentives, taxes, they are
necessary, but they are notsufficient to make the world a
(25:15):
better place.
It needs to come from anotherspace.
And that's the space that wecall steward leadership, which
is a combination of values andpurpose.
Now we need to we need to workwith these boards and C-suite
executives and ignite somevalues, values such as long-term
thinking.
You know, how can I thinkbeyond quarters, uh quarter on
(25:36):
quarter?
Uh, values such as ownershipmentality.
If somebody has to solve thesustainability problem, it is me
as a board director, me as aCEO, my organization, my board,
uh, maybe my country.
We can't look at uh global uh,you know, um global uh
organizations to help us solve,or we can't just look at the
governments to solve thatproblem of sustainability.
(25:58):
We also need to be more um openabout what we call creative
resilience, you know, because weneed to innovate, we need to
create better business models.
Uh and and and and the value,the fourth value is that of
interdependence.
How do I understand that, youknow, when I give more, I get
more?
And that's the model that a lotof large organizations that
(26:20):
have been hugely successfulknown for.
Setting up cities, setting upum, you know, opening schools,
opening hospitals uh in theircampus so that you know the
employees are happy because whenI give more, guess what?
I get more.
And the fifth value, then thefifth value that we espouse is
that of what we call ethicalintegrity.
How do I do it in a way thatnot only ticks the boxes in
(26:43):
terms of being above law, butbeing the right thing to do?
Ethics and integrity.
So, you know, boards that areable to get that are are boards
that do well.
Now, if if somebody was to askme a formula around how to do
that, I would say get the rightchair.
If you have the right chair whois motivated by doing well, by
(27:04):
doing good, right chair whobelieves in long-term thinking,
interdependence, uh, you know,ownership mentality, ethical
integrity, and innovation, he orshe will steer the board in the
right direction.
Now, um, and the problem is,you know, uh it's a very
close-knit community.
So getting, and there are, andand to be fair, there are some
rock star chairs that I haveinterviewed or met uh in my
(27:27):
research.
And um, you know, these arethese are people who are trying
to drive an action, trying tonudge their CEOs, even arm twist
their CEOs to do to do well bydoing good.
Scott Allen (27:38):
Yeah.
Last question, I just because Iwant to dive a little bit
deeper, but in creativeresilience, would you talk a
little bit about creativeresilience?
I like that phrasing.
I've never heard that phrasingbefore, but how are you thinking
about that?
Sunil Puri (27:54):
So um, doing well by doing good is a very difficult
journey, uh, Scott, as you canimagine.
If I'm a if I'm a if I'm abusiness leader um and I go to
my uh board or I go to myshareholders and tell them, hey,
you know, I want to spend abillion dollars uh solving the
um uh you know healthcare issueuh in my in my community.
(28:14):
You know, uh, and a lot ofthese investors, a lot of these
shareholders may not agree tothat.
So what we mean by creativeresilience is one, having the
resilience to take those knocks,you know, hear a no 200 times
and still think about the agendathat you are pursuing.
And we add the word creative tothat because we need to do it
in an innovative way.
(28:35):
Because if I go to my board andI go to my shareholders and
tell them, hey, guess what?
There is a business model tweakthat we can make such that I we
can we can increase theshareholder returns by X percent
and also be known for being anorganization that is solving a
solving an existential crisis.
That is the language that uhyour shareholders or boards will
(28:58):
understand.
And that in my mind is abeautiful example of creative
resilience.
Scott Allen (29:03):
Well, and there is that word and again, right?
And we can also accomplishthis.
Sunil Puri (29:10):
I know, and uh yeah, and and a lot of a lot of there
are to be fair, you know, thereare there are a lot of
well-meaning CEOs, there are alot of well-meaning
organizations.
I think they are doing theirbit.
It is just that we don't haveenough.
Scott Allen (29:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, I I I I've saidit on the podcast a couple
times, and I don't know if I'vesaid it recently, but you know,
how do we as humans uh evolve toa place where we can think long
term, we can uh think in thatboth end from a natural place.
(29:44):
Um, you know, we we do see thatinterdependence that exists.
And I mean it's it's it seemslike it's a it's a human
condition.
It's it's a challenge for us ashumans to really prioritize
those.
The fact that you are out therein the world.
World, pushing, pulling,motivating, inspiring, engaging,
(30:05):
mobilizing?
I have great respect.
I really do.
And trying to better understandhow we do that work.
And again, um, doing well bydoing good.
Um, sir, I always any well,real quick before I wind down,
anything else you want to sayfor to listeners so that they um
(30:25):
is there anything that Ihaven't asked you that you think
is critical to thisconversation that uh people I'll
put some links in the shownotes so people can learn more
about you and the organization.
But uh anything that stands outfor you that I've missed?
Obviously there's a lot, butyeah, obviously there's a lot.
Sunil Puri (30:44):
I would I I would I would again uh re-emphasize on
doing well and doing good versusdoing well by doing good.
Organizations that embracedoing well by doing good, where
doing good is not anafterthought, are organizations
that are able to driveprofitability and uh be
successful for a much longerperiod.
(31:04):
So doing well by doing good isthe mantra that I would uh love
to leave uh our listeners with.
Scott Allen (31:09):
Okay.
Doing well by doing good.
I always close out theseconversations with uh a question
and it's uh pretty basic.
But what what's caught yourattention in recent times?
What have you been listening toor streaming or reading?
Um, it might have something todo with what we've just
discussed.
It may have nothing to do withwhat we've just discussed, but
(31:29):
what might listeners beinterested in that's caught your
attention?
Sunil Puri (31:33):
Ah, that's an interesting one.
So if I think about the uhbooks on my bedside, uh Scott,
as of now, uh one of the booksI'm reading reading is uh so
there's one book that I'mreading and the and another book
that is kind of I read it on aloop.
So I finish it and I read itagain, I finish it and read it
again, and I've been doing thatfor a few years now.
(31:54):
So the book that I've read I'mreading now is uh called Growing
the Pie uh by uh by AlexEdmonds.
So he talks about um thephilosophy that we were
discussing about that, you know,hey, the pie is much bigger.
We just need to make sure thatyou know we are trying to solve
for a big problem and there'smoney to be made for everyone.
(32:14):
It's a beautiful book.
I would recommend uh you toread it if you have time,
growing the pie, Alex Edmonds.
And the book that I read on aloop, uh Scott, is called uh
Autobiography of a Yogi.
Have you heard of that book?
I haven't, no.
It's by Yogananda Paramahansa,and uh it's a fairly well-known
book.
A lot of CEOs uh uh I uh youknow, I I I remember reading
(32:38):
Steve Jobs uh was a big fan ofYogananda Paramahansa, and um so
were a bunch of other CEOs.
So it's called Autobiography ofa Yogi.
It talks about the need forinner journey for every
individual.
Wow, it talks about the factthat individuals and and and
remember this was written about80 or 90 years ago, I think in
(32:58):
the 1940s or thereabout.
And um, what he talks about isthe need for us to focus less on
religion, more on spirituality,less on dogmas, more on uh you
know our inner growth, our innerspiritual growth.
So he talks about yoga, hetalks about uh spirituality, he
(33:19):
talks about um, you know, in theinner journey that he undertook
as a as an ascetic or as asaint uh during his lifetime.
So again, a book that I wouldhugely recommend.
And it's a book that is uh, Iwould say not the easiest one to
read, uh, because it jumps fromone place to the other.
And that's the reason I like tokeep reading it um on a loop,
(33:41):
literally.
Scott Allen (33:42):
Oh, that's wonderful.
I've I've never come across aguest who said that, that it's
just reading on a loop.
And I imagine as you're loopingaround, it's there's different
meanings every time as you readread it.
Sunil Puri (33:53):
Absolutely, different meanings and different
aspects that I see.
So I would recommend uh to thelisteners uh consider reading
autobiography of a yogi byYogananda Paramahansa.
Scott Allen (34:05):
Okay, I will put links in the show notes so that
people can access those.
Uh, sir, I appreciate your timetoday.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for the good work you'redoing in the world, trying to
help us understand literallysome of the biggest questions.
Sunil Puri (34:19):
Thanks for inviting me, Scott.
It's a pleasure.
Scott Allen (34:22):
Well, be well.
Take care.
Thank you.
I don't have a ton to say here.
I mean, doing well by doinggood.
I think maybe I messed that upa couple times in the episode,
but I'm gonna repeat it one moretime.
Doing well by doing good.
A wonderful mantra, a wonderfulway to approach the work.
(34:43):
And I am so thankful for thatconversation.
And I'm thankful for all ofyou.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
As always, gosh, it's been fiveplus years now.
I very, very much appreciateyou.
Take care, all.
Bye bye.
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