September 3, 2025 • 36 mins
Dr. Wayne E. Mayer, CEO of When Everything Matters (WEMCo), is a Strategic Sustainability Consultant who advises global companies, governments, and non-profits. He helps organizations transform business models into authentic Sustainable Development partnerships. He brings over 20 years’ experience designing and leading Corporate Sustainability. Dr. Mayer helps clients embed Sustainability into governance, culture, and leadership. He works across industries and offers extensive involvement in the mining sector.
His approach tethers company practices to megatrends and positions companies as leaders in Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) practices. Dr. Mayer also works as a Duke Corporate Education Educator and serves as a Senior Fellow at the Duke University Center for International Development, and has taught for the Duke Environmental Leadership and Business & Environment programs. He also teaches graduate courses for the University of Denver’s Environmental Policy & Management and Global Community Engagement programs.
A Quote From This Episode
- “Sustainability is really a mindset as opposed to a department.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- 📗 Firms of Endearment by Sisodia
- 📗 Full Spectrum Thinking by Johansen
- 📗 The Man Who Broke Capitalism by Gelles
- 📗 The War Below by Scheyder
- 📗 Ingrained by Robinson
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for Prague - October 15-18, 2025!
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
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- Blog
My Approach to Hosting
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast.
Today I have Dr Wayne Mayer.
He is the CEO of whenEverything Matters and is a
strategic sustainabilityconsultant who advises global
companies, governments andnonprofits.
He helps organizationstransform business models into
authentic sustainabledevelopment partnerships.
He brings over 20 years'experience designing and leading
(00:21):
corporate sustainability.
Dr Mayer helps clients embedsustainability into governance,
culture and leadership.
He works across industries andoffers extensive involvement in
the mining sector.
His approach tethers companypractices to megatrends and
positions companies as leadersin environmental, social and
governance practices.
(00:41):
That's ESG.
Dr Mayer also works as a Dukecorporate education educator and
serves as a senior fellow atthe Duke University Center for
International Development andhas taught for the Duke
Environmental Leadership andBusiness and Environment
Programs.
He also teaches graduatecourses for the University of
Denver's Environmental Policyand Management and Global
Community Engagement Programs.
(01:02):
Sir, thank you so much forbeing with me today.
Appreciate your time.
Anything else not in your biothat people need to know about
you.
Wayne Mayer (01:11):
I think you covered it quite well and I'd like to
say thank you, Scott, forinviting me to your show.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I've enjoyed several of yourconversations and indeed
discovered practical wisdom.
Scott Allen (01:21):
Well, I joke sometimes.
I don't know how practical thewisdom is sometimes, but we try.
Wayne Mayer (01:27):
Yes, it can often be a bit abstract, but you can
find kernels of great pragmatism.
Scott Allen (01:32):
So you know we had spoken.
Obviously listeners kind ofhave a sense of your area of
expertise here.
I've had a few conversationsSteve Kempster, a little bit of
Margaret Wheatley and RyanSatterwhite with Kathy Allen,
just kind of about this generalspace.
But maybe, if you would, I knowthat sustainability is a
passion of yours.
(01:53):
How are you thinking aboutsustainability leadership?
How are you defining that?
Wayne Mayer (01:58):
It's interesting.
I've been thinking a lot abouthow organizations think about
issues beyond their core focusand whether that causes mission
drift or whether that causesproductivity.
And if you think about it atthe high level the chief
sustainability officers they'retrying to build environmentally
conscious firms through strategyand influence, and so I've been
(02:20):
thinking a lot about howinfluence is used in leadership
and they're also trying tointerpret changes in the
external environment and workout the strategies and
opportunities and impacts fortheir companies as they look at
that external environment.
So outward in looking, as wellas inward out looking.
Scott Allen (02:36):
Yeah Well, and so that's interesting.
We've got a few different kindof bodies of literature, so to
speak.
We've got the sustainability,we've got the strategy, and then
at least one way I defineleadership is the process of
influencing others toward acommon vision.
So leadership and influence,and so kind of the convergence
of these three spaces.
Wayne Mayer (02:58):
Yes, in fact I want to pick up on the thread a
little bit, from Steve Kemsterhis ideas around a regenerative
approach to business andleadership, and then Kathy
Allen's ideas of leading fromthe roots and that conversation
that you just mentioned about,where Kathy and Ryan Satterwhite
were speaking together again onthis idea of regeneration.
Scott Allen (03:16):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (03:17):
And the thread I wanted to pick up on is the idea
of looking at business assystems.
And how do we take systemsthinking into that to bring this
regenerative pattern, how do webring this idea of freshness
and newness by looking at thingsthrough systems?
And what occurred to me that Ithought I would offer to you is
that I actually studied forestryin the Pacific Northwest, in
(03:41):
the state of Washington, and youcan't study forestry there
without learning a little bitabout Chief Seattle, and so he
was the leader of the Duwamishand the Squamish people and
famously he's credited with aspeech about ecological
responsibility and how do yousell land if you're part of the
land?
And to sort of paraphrase whathe was getting at, he says that
(04:03):
all things are connected likeblood that unites us all, and
that people did not weave theweb of life.
We merely are a strand in it.
Okay, and so whatever we do tothis web, we do to ourselves,
and I'm paraphrasing, but that'sbasically the chief Seattle
perspective.
And so then you get this ideaof a web, and in ecology we
(04:24):
often talk about ecosystems andthis web of life, and in fact
the modern concept of systemsthinking emerged out of
environmental science, which isan interdisciplinary field
beyond the categories.
So you weren't just thinkingabout biology or anthropology or
(04:46):
chemistry, you were having tolearn how all of those
disciplines actually interact.
Scott Allen (04:52):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (04:53):
And so the late environmental scientist, donella
Meadows.
She explains that systemscontain three main components
elements, interconnections and afunction or purpose.
Okay, and you can see systemsthen in nature and you can see
them in business, and I thoughtit would be kind of fun to
explore that with you.
Around this idea of influenceand appreciation, we start
(05:15):
looking at this idea of how dowe use this idea of systems to
identify elements,interconnections, and in
physical or ecological systemswe would talk about a function,
okay.
Or in human systems like yourdigestive system, there's a
function, but then in businesswe might actually think of
elements, interconnections and apurpose.
(05:36):
What's the purpose of oursystem?
What are we trying toaccomplish?
Scott Allen (05:40):
I love it.
Let's do it.
I like it, all right.
Wayne Mayer (05:42):
So a quick way to comprehend systems thinking.
I love it, let's do it, I likeit, all right.
So a quick way to comprehendsystems thinking.
It comes from this idea ofecosystems, a community of
living organisms interactingwith each other in their
physical environment, and so, ina nutshell, that would be an
ecosystem.
But one way that I think we canframe this that will make it
easy to comprehend is sometimesit's helpful to look at these
elements by doing the reverse.
Okay, helpful to look at theseelements by doing the reverse.
(06:07):
So we're often looking at whathappens to a system if we change
this or that, and what I meanby the reverse is well, if you
take an ecosystem and we thinkit's a natural, intact ecosystem
, what happens if we reinsert aspecies that was absent?
And so what I thought would beuseful to illustrate this is
just talk about thereintroduction of wolves in
Yellowstone National Park,because it's big, it's grandiose
(06:27):
, and I think people get itright away.
And then we're going to takethat and we're going to think
about how that offers usinsights into the way we can
provide sustainability,leadership in business by using
this method of systems thinking.
And so, in 1995, wolves werereintroduced to Yellowstone
National Park after being absentfor about 70 years.
And ecologically it's one ofthese conservation stories
(06:50):
that's quite remarkable becausewhen they reintroduced the wolf
it kind of fell right back intoits old role.
And what happens is ittriggered what scientists call a
trophic cascade.
A trophic cascade.
A trophic cascade is sort ofthis top-down influence where
you've reintroduced a species,usually a top predator, and it
(07:11):
has a cascading effect ondifferent levels of the food
chain.
Okay, so in Yellowstone itstarts with the wolf's prey, the
elk and the wolves startfeeding on the elk, bringing the
elk population into balance.
So before the elk and bisonpopulations had ballooned over
that 70-year period, really soby the 1980s the park was so
(07:34):
overrun by elk and bison thatthey were also changing the
landscape, they were keepingvegetation low, they were doing
a lot of grazing, and so withreintroduction of the wolves we
start seeing the wolf populationis putting back into check and
into balance the elk population.
And as the wolves start feedingon the elk, the downed elk also
(07:55):
feed the scavenger community ofthe wolves, the bears, the
coyotes.
But it doesn't stop there withthese big animals.
We start seeing hundreds ofbeetles and insect species also
benefit from the wolf kills.
Then there's this incredibleripple effect through the plant
life.
So before the reintroduction, asI was saying, the elk had no
one attacking them, no onehunting them, so they chewed on
(08:16):
willow bushes a lot and theybrought the willow trees down to
very low levels.
So the willow stands didn'tgrow tall and with the
reintroduction of the wolves,the willow trees began to
flourish and that attracted moresongbirds.
It also provided food forbeaver.
The beaver used the willowtrees to build dams, which
(08:37):
created ponds and wetlands,which created habitat for fish
birds, amphibians, small mammals, moose, mink otter Habitat for
fish birds, amphibians, smallmammals, moose, mink otter.
So once a meadow turned into apond, it created a lot of
opportunity for life.
Wow.
And so now we can take thisidea of an ecosystem, of a
trophic cascade and we can startto apply it to the way we do
business.
Scott Allen (08:58):
Okay, Interesting.
So one parallel could be we geta new CEO and the cascading
impacts that has on theorganization.
Would that be one simplisticexample?
Wayne Mayer (09:11):
Exactly right, exactly right.
And when you start thinkingabout that then you say, okay,
if we get this new CEO, what'sthat CEO's leadership style?
And in the leadershipliterature there's a lot of
different ways.
Somebody comes in.
Maybe you have a command andcontrol person, maybe you have a
servant leader style, maybe youhave a people-centric
leadership style, and so that'sgoing to then have a cascading
effect on the whole organization.
(09:32):
And so with sustainability,again, it's really a mindset.
I like to think of it as amindset as opposed to a
department.
So a lot of companies now willhave a green team or they will
have a community relations team,and these small groups tend to
do fringe projects or whatthey'll call initiatives on the
(09:54):
side, on the fringes of whateverthe core business is.
Yep, and when that happens, Icall that a bolt-on approach to
sustainability.
That a bolt-on approach tosustainability, we're just
bolting it onto the companybecause we feel a moral
imperative to do so or we feelthat there's some regulatory
pressure or stakeholder pressurefor us to do so.
But it really doesn't have muchto do with what we do as an
(10:16):
organization.
Scott Allen (10:17):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (10:18):
And so for a leader then in sustainability to have
that cascading effect, thatleader would want to come in and
say okay, we're going to try toembed this sustainability
mindset, social andenvironmental thinking, into
everything we do.
Scott Allen (10:33):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (10:34):
And that will guide how we make our decisions and
that brings it into thestrategic realm.
Scott Allen (10:39):
Okay, okay.
Wayne Mayer (10:41):
And then, in doing so, we're going to be looking
for well, how does what we doaffect what others do?
So, looking for that idea ofsystems, where are these systems
?
A team of people workingtogether is a system, and then
you can have systems withinsystems, and then we're going to
look at that externalenvironment.
We want to start from thatexternal environment and then
(11:03):
work our way back in.
Scott Allen (11:04):
So I'm seeing a really, really nice parallel to
leader development right now.
So let's see if this, if thislands, it may not.
Okay, we're going to try.
Yeah, yeah, you know, at timesI think DEI can be this way.
I think leader development orleadership can be this way that
you have a leadership programand, you know, oftentimes the
(11:26):
decision makers feel thatleadership program will have
some type of impact.
You know, unless leadership isconnected to any number of
systems performance management,succession planning, of course,
training and development.
But there's a whole host ofother elements, whether it's
aligned with the 360 that we'regoing to do, whether it's
(11:48):
aligned with how we recruitpeople to certain values that
then we promote as values in aperson we want in the
organization, or values of whatwe hope a leader will model.
Unless it's connected to anumber of those in this case,
like HR systems, many of themwe're going to be super limited
in our ability to have that oneday long program have any level
(12:09):
of impact.
It's going to be much lowerunless that programming is
connected to these other partsof the system and that's exactly
right.
Wayne Mayer (12:18):
Okay, okay, yes, yeah, you're exactly right.
And with that HR example, samething happens you end up with a
scapegoat department.
Yes, yeah, that HR example,same thing happens you end up
with a scapegoat department.
Yes, yeah, and this happens alot in sustainability, but you
can see it in HR.
It wasn't our fault, the greenteam did it.
Why are we over budget?
Oh, they're spending money onthis project or that project,
and so the idea then is tofigure out well, how do we
(12:40):
actually shift the way peopleperceive what we do as an
organization?
Scott Allen (12:45):
Yeah, this gets to the Kempster conversation, where
I think it was Cotswold Dairy,if I'm not mistaken, but it was
a dairy company and it was justbaked into their DNA as an
organization.
That's right.
Everything they did kind ofcame back to this, to your point
mindset, right, exactly right.
Wayne Mayer (13:03):
There's a great quote from Peter Drucker, the
American professor of managementand leadership.
He says and again I'mparaphrasing but something to
the effect of the task ofleadership is to create an
alignment of strengths so strongthat it makes a system's
weaknesses irrelevant.
Wow, and that's sort of whatwe're getting at when we talk
about embedded sustainability oran embedded mindset.
(13:25):
Yeah, I'll give you an exampleif you'd like.
Yeah, please, what we'regetting at when we talk about
embedded sustainability or anembedded mindset.
Yeah, I'll give you an exampleif you'd like.
Yeah, please.
So, actually, from Cleveland,ohio, I had the great pleasure
some years ago of working withChuck Fowler oh yeah, who's got
the over?
At Case Western.
The Fowler Center for Businessas an Agent of World Benefit
honors his name, and Chuck wasthe longtime CEO of Fairmont
Minerals, which he started.
It was called Best Sands,became Fairmont Minerals and
(13:47):
under his leadership I think itcarried all the way to Fairmont
Central.
It has since been sold to Coviaand so they're running it.
But under Chuck Fowler'sleadership, he decided early on,
before the SustainableDevelopment Goals, when the UN
had the Millennium DevelopmentGoals, that it would be a great
idea to embed this idea of theMillennium Development Goals of
(14:10):
sustainable development intocore strategy.
Scott Allen (14:13):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (14:15):
And so they started doing this and basically they
began to spiral around theiridea of moving silica sand to
market with speed as their coreinitiative or their core purpose
.
They started to spiral aroundthe idea of social, economic and
environmental responsibilityand later they actually mapped
(14:36):
that to the sustainabledevelopment goals.
But early on, one of the thingsthey did is they and because it
came top down, chuck was ableto get the board of directors
involved and approval of thisand then from there unleashed
innovation bottom up and middleout, and what he told me years
later was that it was a greatexercise in productivity.
Scott Allen (14:55):
Would you talk about that bottom up and middle
out?
Wayne Mayer (14:57):
Sure.
So one of the best ways thathis work exemplifies this is
during early years.
He basically said okay, I wanteverybody to look at whatever it
is you do for the company andthink about it from an
environmentally responsibleperspective and a socially
responsible perspective.
What does that look like?
What do you see differently?
(15:18):
What could we do different thatwe haven't thought of before?
And one of the people on theshipping receiving ends made a
very astute observation.
He said you know, we take a lotof pride in the.
We recycle our cardboard boxes,but we're trucking in boxes of
sand into the plant.
Then we're emptying the sand.
(15:39):
Abrasion from the sand destroysthe cardboard boxes so we can't
use them again.
So now we're collapsing theboxes and we're paying haul-away
fees to have them hauled away.
And he said look, there's athing on the market called the
Super Sack.
It's kind of like a heavy-dutyburlap sack designed for this
sort of thing.
And he said we could use those.
The cost would be minimalcompared to the haul-away fees
(16:02):
and the boxes, and they'redesigned to last at least 12
months of heavy use.
They made that switch.
It saved them $600,000 thefirst year and then about a half
a million dollars year on yearafter that, so right away the
CFO gets engaged.
He said suddenly I likesustainability and so this
really transformed how they didthis.
(16:23):
So that was from the bottom up.
It was somebody who wasactually receiving the trucks of
sand who made the originalobservation.
Yeah, and now Chuck did caution.
He said not every idea becomes,you know, incorporated into the
way we do business, but theempowerment idea is that
everybody is asked to bringtheir observations to their
direct boss and then up thechain so that leadership
(16:45):
actually sees, hey, we might beable to use some things
differently that have a triplebottom line effect, meaning they
help us environmentally,socially and financially.
Scott Allen (16:55):
Yes, that's awesome , that's a great story, and so
give me a couple other kind ofconcepts that you want listeners
to be aware of.
So we've got leadership andinfluence, we've got strategy,
we've got sustainability and howthese work together.
Talk a little bit more aboutthat application to business.
This is fascinating.
Wayne Mayer (17:15):
Sure.
Well, let me introduce to youall a framework that and I will
oversimplify it here, but Iwould encourage listeners to
explore it more I learned thisfrom one of the members of my
dissertation committee, a fellownamed Dr Francis Lethem, and he
had collaborated with DrWilliam Smith, and in 1980, they
had done this work.
(17:36):
At the time Francis was workingfor the World Bank, and so they
had been looking at how come alot of projects aren't as
successful as we'd like them tobe.
And then, with Francis at theWorld Bank, he said well, how
come a lot of projects?
aren't as successful as we'dlike them to be.
Okay, and then, with Francis atthe World Bank, he said well,
how come a lot of ourinternational development
projects aren't as successful aswe would like them to be?
And they came up with thisframework called the AIC
(17:56):
framework, which stands forappreciative, influential and
control.
Scott Allen (18:00):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (18:01):
And the way I like to describe it for people to
visualize is three concentriccircles the outer circles, the
appreciative environment or theenabling environment, the center
is the influential and then theinner circle is the control
sphere.
Okay, and what they observedand I've since used this as a
tool to help guide businessesthink about how they do what
(18:25):
they do and how to embrace theirexternal environments and what
they observed, Francis andWilliam, was that most
organizations, whether they'redevelopment organizations or
private sector businesses, weremaking decisions in that control
sphere Because that's wherethey actually had power.
They could make decisions, theycould make budgetary
(18:46):
allocations.
But when decisions were made inthat control sphere without
knowledge or recognition ofinfluence and appreciation, they
often ended up with mediocre orlower than mediocre results.
So they said why don't we flipthat around?
What if we start by looking atthe appreciation sphere?
(19:07):
So, just to simplify this, thatwould be if you want to open a
business and you have toappreciate the institutional
constraints that exist in thatenvironment, so the legal
frameworks.
So if you decide you want toopen a nightclub and you're
working in where ordinances sayyou must be closed by midnight,
(19:29):
you might say, maybe that's notthe nightclub.
I want the place.
I want to open the nightclub.
Scott Allen (19:32):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (19:33):
Or you're going to say it's going to be more of a
dayclub, right?
In other words, you have toappreciate your job is not going
to be to change those rules.
Your job is to appreciate thoserules.
Now, in the influential sphere,you might find that there are
organizations that are activelyadvocating to change those
curfew rules so that you canhave a nightclub that stays open
(19:55):
longer.
Scott Allen (19:55):
Yeah, because the nightclub will be a little less
popular.
Wayne Mayer (19:58):
That's right, and so what you're thinking then
would be maybe I can use myinfluence in that influential
sphere to encourage thatorganization to advocate for
what I want.
Scott Allen (20:10):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (20:11):
And so in that influence sphere you're looking
at how can I influence othersand who can influence me, and
then how my coalitions be formed.
Scott Allen (20:20):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (20:21):
And once you've identified all of those things,
so you're identifying yourstakeholders both the
appreciative stakeholders andthe influential stakeholders
before you actually makedecisions in that control sphere
.
And so then that reallytransforms how you think about
what your company does and thecontext in which it operates.
Scott Allen (20:40):
Yes, 100%.
Is this also a tool that'shelping us think more
systemically?
Wayne Mayer (20:45):
Oh, absolutely, because by doing so, one of the
things it helps you do is itlooks at purpose and power.
So you're looking at thosethree components appreciation,
influence and control and thenyou're looking at who has the
power in these differentdynamics.
Who has the purpose, and how dowe align purpose and power to
accomplish a shared goal?
Scott Allen (21:06):
Yep.
Wayne Mayer (21:07):
And so the same thing happens when you are
looking through systems, througha systems lens, and trying to
create in strategy a sharedvision.
And then, once you have thatshared vision, how do we pull it
closer to our present?
Scott Allen (21:22):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (21:23):
And this tool really helps you do that.
It helps you as well thinkabout different ways to
understand stakeholders.
So a lot of organizations nowdo stakeholder analyses or
stakeholder mapping, and they'llask at least two questions.
They'll ask who are the mainstakeholders and they'll ask
what are the interests of thosestakeholders?
But they often don't ask thethird question, which is what
are the interests of thosestakeholders?
But they often don't ask thethird question, which is what is
(21:45):
the power of each stakeholdergroup.
Scott Allen (21:47):
Oh, wow, yeah.
Wayne Mayer (21:49):
Or the fourth question, which is how are
coalitions likely to form?
Scott Allen (21:53):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (21:53):
And the AIC framework helps you see that.
It provides a visual tool thathelps you see who's really
available, who's in thatinfluential sphere with whom I
might collaborate, and there's alot of rhetoric now about
public-private partnerships andoften that's misunderstood as
hello private sector, pleasegive money to our partnership,
(22:17):
and to which either you havecorporations that are resistant
to that because that's not theirbusiness model to give away
money, or they say yes, but theywant to do it in finite amounts
.
They don't want to have thisrecurring, constant need to
donate.
So one of the things that wesee in this idea of building
partnerships is how can you doit where there's no direct cost
(22:42):
to the company?
In other words, it createsopportunities for company
savings.
It creates benefits for thecompany as well as to the
recipient, and I can give you aquick example of what that can
look like.
Scott Allen (22:52):
Yeah, please do.
Wayne Mayer (22:53):
So years ago in Peru I worked with a mining
company, first Quantum Mineralsand they were trying to figure
out how to approach communityrelations differently, and they
were working in a remote area inthe Andes where there was
another large mine that had donea lot, where they were looking
at everything transactionallyand they ended up spending an
(23:15):
awful lot of money and still nothaving communities that were
content.
So one of the things we startedto explore was what are the big
needs?
The company had bought the landfor this mining project and
embedded in what they purchasedwas a relocation.
They were going to have torelocate families, which meant
they're going to have to rebuildhousing, and so we started
looking at well, when you dothat, there are lots of
(23:36):
complications, but one that welooked at was how do you provide
water and sewer to these newbuildings that you'll have to
produce, and the usual way to dothat is to buy off-shelf
components toilet showers, sinksand then truck them to site.
What we found by looking throughthat AIC lens was that at the
(23:57):
time the water and sanitationdivision of the World Bank was
based in Lima, peru, they hadalready created a series of what
they called my Bathroom Kitsthat they had rolled out in
pilot communities in fourdifferent parts of Peru.
They wanted to bring this toscale and so in conversations
(24:17):
with them, they said well, look,if you relocate these
communities.
And in doing so with them, theysaid, well, look, if you
relocate these communities, indoing so, if you would use our
equipment, it's all sourced incountry, so it's all
domestically, the whole valuechain is in country.
So you're supporting theNational Society of Industry and
you're supporting this localproduction.
And we will provide the addedvalue of bringing extension
(24:40):
workers out to help usemicrofinance and train local
people in the community to bethe custodians of the system.
What this did, the brillianceof this idea, was that it would
provide the private sectorcompany with an exit strategy.
So they were willing to putsome money up front and they
(25:01):
were willing to invest in thesesystems and they were even
willing to help with some of theengineering designing on
putting in the water system.
But they didn't want to beplumbers for the life of the
mine.
Scott Allen (25:11):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (25:12):
And so here's a way that they could do this concept
of partnerships, of alliancebuilding, in ways that was good
for the company, not just forthe recipient of that alliance.
Scott Allen (25:23):
Yeah Well, I just finished a really good book.
I had a fun conversation forlisteners Check out the episode
with Jeffrey Beeson.
The book is called NetworkLeadership and, yeah, so his
whole kind of approach to thiswork is the power of networks,
and it sounds like this toolvery nicely helps you tap into
(25:43):
maybe even at times,unsuspecting partnerships that
you would never imagined, but itthen creates an effect where
that's so cool.
I love it.
I absolutely love it.
Oh, good, good, wayne, beforewe, as we begin to wind down our
time, what's another conceptthat you want listeners to be
aware of as critical to thisconversation around
(26:06):
sustainability leadership?
Is there another concept thatcomes to mind for you?
Wayne Mayer (26:11):
You know, I would say, around this concept of
stakeholder engagement.
So we talked a little bit justof stakeholder mapping.
But I think in sustainabilityleadership some of the easy
things to do are around thelow-hanging fruit of reducing
water consumption, reducingenergy use.
But some of the morecomplicated components come from
(26:31):
this idea of stakeholderengagement.
Scott Allen (26:33):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (26:35):
So, if we understand who those
stakeholders are, how do weengage with them?
How do we work with themInternally?
How do we engage with them?
How do we work with themInternally?
How do we really motivateemployees?
How do we use the tools ofstakeholder engagement to
actually increase productivityby creating reasons for why do I
come to work, besides doingwhat I'm paid to do?
Scott Allen (26:55):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (26:56):
Is there a level of enthusiasm to what I do?
Can I bring excitement with me?
Do I feel gratitude that I getto work with these people on
these projects, or do I feellike this is a task I must
complete because I need to earna living?
Scott Allen (27:13):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (27:14):
And there's a very different way again this idea of
mindset.
There's a different way ofthinking, and so stakeholder
engagement really can tie intothat internally and then
externally also when we talkabout sustainability.
It morphed out of corporatesocial responsibility and some
of that was heavy on corporatephilanthropy.
Scott Allen (27:34):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (27:34):
So we're a great company, we donated to this
organization or thatorganization, this organization
or that organization, and one ofthe ways that good stakeholder
engagement helps a company isthat it enables the company to
say we're a good company, butyou don't have to take our word
for it.
We'd like you to ask some ofthese other organizations and
again in our sphere of influence, yep, and if they speak well of
(27:59):
you, then it really elevateswhere you are in your ecosystem,
in your community.
It also elevates how yourleaders are using influence and
appreciation to achieve thegoals that the organization
wants them to achieve.
Scott Allen (28:15):
Yeah, so cool.
Sir, what are a coupleresources that you would point
listeners to that have stood outfor you?
I know we spoke about Firms ofEndearment, a book that both of
us have enjoyed, but are there acouple other resources and
maybe you could talk to Firms ofEndearment if it is a resource
that you would recommend tocheck out?
Wayne Mayer (28:34):
Well, I think certainly Firms of Endearment is
helpful.
It gives you a fundamentalperspective of how to think more
broadly about responsibility inbusiness.
Yeah, More recently there's abook that I think is really
helpful for this.
It's called Full SpectrumThinking.
Scott Allen (28:48):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (28:48):
How to Escape Boxes in a Post-Categorical Future,
and it's by Bob Johanson of theInstitute for the Future out in
California.
Okay, and that book?
It helps leaders break free oflimiting labels and to see new
gradients of possibility inwhat's otherwise a very chaotic
world.
Scott Allen (29:06):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (29:06):
So it really helps you with interdisciplinary
thinking.
Scott Allen (29:10):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (29:10):
Yeah.
So another that I was thinkingabout was the man who Broke
Capitalism, and the subtitlethere is how Jack Welch Gutted
the Heartland and Crushed theSoul of Corporate America and
how to Undo His Legacy.
Wow, heavy, heavy.
It's by David Gels, who's a NewYork Times writer, and it's
really great.
It really puts in perspectivehow did we get to this idea of
(29:32):
having CEO celebrities and thishuge discrepancy between CEO
earnings and worker earnings,and how did that all come out of
balance, and then what could wedo to bring it back into
balance?
A third one would just be andthis is more looking at when we
think about the energytransition, we can't not think
about mining, and so there was abook that came out last year
(29:55):
called the War Below LithiumCopper and the Global Battle to
Power Our Lives.
It's by a guy named ErnestSchneider I think it's how he
pronounced it S-C-H-E-Y-D-E-R.
Okay, ernest Schneider, and hewrites for Reuters, but he uses
storytelling to bring you intothis concept of how do we make
(30:15):
these decisions aroundtrade-offs, what's more
important, certain areas of landin pristine ecosystem style or
as deposits of copper or lithium, and should we be extracting
them or not?
And I think he's very spot onin terms of what we should be
thinking about over the nextcouple of decades.
Scott Allen (30:35):
Wow.
Well, sir, thank you so muchfor giving us a broad overview
and then helping us understandsome of the resources that are
available to us, because I thinkthis is, at least for me, a bit
of an intimidating topicbecause it's a whole world that
I don't know of.
But I feel like I understand ita little bit better because of
our conversation today and Ivery, very much appreciate it.
(30:57):
But I also love kind of thisinterdisciplinary lens of
leadership strategy,sustainability, and then, of
course, we've got systemsthinking embedded in all of this
.
That I love it.
Quickly, before we wind down, Ialways ask guests what they've
been listening to, readingstreaming, what's caught your
attention in recent times.
(31:17):
Now it could have to do withsomething we've just discussed.
It might have nothing to dowith what we've discussed, but,
Wayne, what's been on thenightstand or the television or
the iPad?
Wayne Mayer (31:27):
A couple of things.
So a podcast your leaders mightenjoy called Outrage and
Optimism, and it's a climatepodcast for people who are not
willing to give up on making theworld a better place.
That's sort of their tagline.
Scott Allen (31:38):
Oh, I love it.
Wayne Mayer (31:39):
One of the people that runs it is the former
climate change executivesecretary, cristina Figueres,
who I had the great pleasure ofmeeting her in Lima, peru, at
the COP20.
So right before the ParisClimate Agreement the year
before, and she played aninstrumental role in bringing
that Paris Climate Agreement tofruition Nice.
So she's quite something.
She's definitely worth time tolisten to.
(32:00):
There's another podcast that Idon't know as well I've only
heard parts of it, but I'veheard good things about it and
that is the Cleaning Up podcastand that's really.
He interviews leaders in cleanenergy, mobility, climate
finance and sustainabledevelopment.
And then, lastly, as kind of asideline, I just finished
reading a book, an actual paperbook called Ingrained.
(32:23):
It's by a gentleman named ColinRobinson, who is a fine
furniture woodworker in Scotlandand he does a great homage to
the business and the artistryand craftsmanship of furniture
making.
Wow, and he does.
There's great wisdoms ofleadership there.
(32:43):
He runs his own small businessand he really gives you a sense
for what it's like to be anentrepreneur in a field that
requires him to work with hishands, and it was really a
pleasure to read.
Scott Allen (32:53):
Oh, that's very cool, awesome.
Well, I will put a link to allof those in the show notes, so
listeners, check out the shownotes.
You can find them there.
Wayne, thank you so much foryour time today.
I really, really appreciate.
You Appreciate how you thinkFor listeners.
I know you appreciate that aswell.
It's pretty awesome, and youknow what?
Until next time, sir.
Wayne Mayer (33:11):
Well, thank you kindly.
And once again, thank you,Scott.
It's been a real pleasure.
I really appreciate beingincluded.
You've got a great playlist.
Scott Allen (33:18):
Oh, it's been a lot of fun.
I'm learning a lot.
Take care, sir.
All right, likewise.
Wayne Mayer (33:22):
Bye-bye now.
Scott Allen (33:23):
What a fun conversation.
Truly enjoyed that dialogue.
An expert in his field.
Thank you so much, wayne.
Appreciate you, appreciate allof you, for listening, checking
in and staying curious.
Great leaders are curious andthe research would back that up.
Take care everyone.
Thank you so much for stoppingby.
(33:43):
Be well.
Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast.
Today I have Dr Wayne Mayer.
He is the CEO of whenEverything Matters and is a
strategic sustainabilityconsultant who advises global
companies, governments andnonprofits.
He helps organizationstransform business models into
authentic sustainabledevelopment partnerships.
He brings over 20 years'experience designing and leading
(00:21):
corporate sustainability.
Dr Mayer helps clients embedsustainability into governance,
culture and leadership.
He works across industries andoffers extensive involvement in
the mining sector.
His approach tethers companypractices to megatrends and
positions companies as leadersin environmental, social and
governance practices.
(00:41):
That's ESG.
Dr Mayer also works as a Dukecorporate education educator and
serves as a senior fellow atthe Duke University Center for
International Development andhas taught for the Duke
Environmental Leadership andBusiness and Environment
Programs.
He also teaches graduatecourses for the University of
Denver's Environmental Policyand Management and Global
Community Engagement Programs.
(01:02):
Sir, thank you so much forbeing with me today.
Appreciate your time.
Anything else not in your biothat people need to know about
you.
Wayne Mayer (01:11):
I think you covered it quite well and I'd like to
say thank you, Scott, forinviting me to your show.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I've enjoyed several of yourconversations and indeed
discovered practical wisdom.
Scott Allen (01:21):
Well, I joke sometimes.
I don't know how practical thewisdom is sometimes, but we try.
Wayne Mayer (01:27):
Yes, it can often be a bit abstract, but you can
find kernels of great pragmatism.
Scott Allen (01:32):
So you know we had spoken.
Obviously listeners kind ofhave a sense of your area of
expertise here.
I've had a few conversationsSteve Kempster, a little bit of
Margaret Wheatley and RyanSatterwhite with Kathy Allen,
just kind of about this generalspace.
But maybe, if you would, I knowthat sustainability is a
passion of yours.
(01:53):
How are you thinking aboutsustainability leadership?
How are you defining that?
Wayne Mayer (01:58):
It's interesting.
I've been thinking a lot abouthow organizations think about
issues beyond their core focusand whether that causes mission
drift or whether that causesproductivity.
And if you think about it atthe high level the chief
sustainability officers they'retrying to build environmentally
conscious firms through strategyand influence, and so I've been
(02:20):
thinking a lot about howinfluence is used in leadership
and they're also trying tointerpret changes in the
external environment and workout the strategies and
opportunities and impacts fortheir companies as they look at
that external environment.
So outward in looking, as wellas inward out looking.
Scott Allen (02:36):
Yeah Well, and so that's interesting.
We've got a few different kindof bodies of literature, so to
speak.
We've got the sustainability,we've got the strategy, and then
at least one way I defineleadership is the process of
influencing others toward acommon vision.
So leadership and influence,and so kind of the convergence
of these three spaces.
Wayne Mayer (02:58):
Yes, in fact I want to pick up on the thread a
little bit, from Steve Kemsterhis ideas around a regenerative
approach to business andleadership, and then Kathy
Allen's ideas of leading fromthe roots and that conversation
that you just mentioned about,where Kathy and Ryan Satterwhite
were speaking together again onthis idea of regeneration.
Scott Allen (03:16):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (03:17):
And the thread I wanted to pick up on is the idea
of looking at business assystems.
And how do we take systemsthinking into that to bring this
regenerative pattern, how do webring this idea of freshness
and newness by looking at thingsthrough systems?
And what occurred to me that Ithought I would offer to you is
that I actually studied forestryin the Pacific Northwest, in
(03:41):
the state of Washington, and youcan't study forestry there
without learning a little bitabout Chief Seattle, and so he
was the leader of the Duwamishand the Squamish people and
famously he's credited with aspeech about ecological
responsibility and how do yousell land if you're part of the
land?
And to sort of paraphrase whathe was getting at, he says that
(04:03):
all things are connected likeblood that unites us all, and
that people did not weave theweb of life.
We merely are a strand in it.
Okay, and so whatever we do tothis web, we do to ourselves,
and I'm paraphrasing, but that'sbasically the chief Seattle
perspective.
And so then you get this ideaof a web, and in ecology we
(04:24):
often talk about ecosystems andthis web of life, and in fact
the modern concept of systemsthinking emerged out of
environmental science, which isan interdisciplinary field
beyond the categories.
So you weren't just thinkingabout biology or anthropology or
(04:46):
chemistry, you were having tolearn how all of those
disciplines actually interact.
Scott Allen (04:52):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (04:53):
And so the late environmental scientist, donella
Meadows.
She explains that systemscontain three main components
elements, interconnections and afunction or purpose.
Okay, and you can see systemsthen in nature and you can see
them in business, and I thoughtit would be kind of fun to
explore that with you.
Around this idea of influenceand appreciation, we start
(05:15):
looking at this idea of how dowe use this idea of systems to
identify elements,interconnections, and in
physical or ecological systemswe would talk about a function,
okay.
Or in human systems like yourdigestive system, there's a
function, but then in businesswe might actually think of
elements, interconnections and apurpose.
(05:36):
What's the purpose of oursystem?
What are we trying toaccomplish?
Scott Allen (05:40):
I love it.
Let's do it.
I like it, all right.
Wayne Mayer (05:42):
So a quick way to comprehend systems thinking.
I love it, let's do it, I likeit, all right.
So a quick way to comprehendsystems thinking.
It comes from this idea ofecosystems, a community of
living organisms interactingwith each other in their
physical environment, and so, ina nutshell, that would be an
ecosystem.
But one way that I think we canframe this that will make it
easy to comprehend is sometimesit's helpful to look at these
elements by doing the reverse.
Okay, helpful to look at theseelements by doing the reverse.
(06:07):
So we're often looking at whathappens to a system if we change
this or that, and what I meanby the reverse is well, if you
take an ecosystem and we thinkit's a natural, intact ecosystem
, what happens if we reinsert aspecies that was absent?
And so what I thought would beuseful to illustrate this is
just talk about thereintroduction of wolves in
Yellowstone National Park,because it's big, it's grandiose
(06:27):
, and I think people get itright away.
And then we're going to takethat and we're going to think
about how that offers usinsights into the way we can
provide sustainability,leadership in business by using
this method of systems thinking.
And so, in 1995, wolves werereintroduced to Yellowstone
National Park after being absentfor about 70 years.
And ecologically it's one ofthese conservation stories
(06:50):
that's quite remarkable becausewhen they reintroduced the wolf
it kind of fell right back intoits old role.
And what happens is ittriggered what scientists call a
trophic cascade.
A trophic cascade.
A trophic cascade is sort ofthis top-down influence where
you've reintroduced a species,usually a top predator, and it
(07:11):
has a cascading effect ondifferent levels of the food
chain.
Okay, so in Yellowstone itstarts with the wolf's prey, the
elk and the wolves startfeeding on the elk, bringing the
elk population into balance.
So before the elk and bisonpopulations had ballooned over
that 70-year period, really soby the 1980s the park was so
(07:34):
overrun by elk and bison thatthey were also changing the
landscape, they were keepingvegetation low, they were doing
a lot of grazing, and so withreintroduction of the wolves we
start seeing the wolf populationis putting back into check and
into balance the elk population.
And as the wolves start feedingon the elk, the downed elk also
(07:55):
feed the scavenger community ofthe wolves, the bears, the
coyotes.
But it doesn't stop there withthese big animals.
We start seeing hundreds ofbeetles and insect species also
benefit from the wolf kills.
Then there's this incredibleripple effect through the plant
life.
So before the reintroduction, asI was saying, the elk had no
one attacking them, no onehunting them, so they chewed on
(08:16):
willow bushes a lot and theybrought the willow trees down to
very low levels.
So the willow stands didn'tgrow tall and with the
reintroduction of the wolves,the willow trees began to
flourish and that attracted moresongbirds.
It also provided food forbeaver.
The beaver used the willowtrees to build dams, which
(08:37):
created ponds and wetlands,which created habitat for fish
birds, amphibians, small mammals, moose, mink otter Habitat for
fish birds, amphibians, smallmammals, moose, mink otter.
So once a meadow turned into apond, it created a lot of
opportunity for life.
Wow.
And so now we can take thisidea of an ecosystem, of a
trophic cascade and we can startto apply it to the way we do
business.
Scott Allen (08:58):
Okay, Interesting.
So one parallel could be we geta new CEO and the cascading
impacts that has on theorganization.
Would that be one simplisticexample?
Wayne Mayer (09:11):
Exactly right, exactly right.
And when you start thinkingabout that then you say, okay,
if we get this new CEO, what'sthat CEO's leadership style?
And in the leadershipliterature there's a lot of
different ways.
Somebody comes in.
Maybe you have a command andcontrol person, maybe you have a
servant leader style, maybe youhave a people-centric
leadership style, and so that'sgoing to then have a cascading
effect on the whole organization.
(09:32):
And so with sustainability,again, it's really a mindset.
I like to think of it as amindset as opposed to a
department.
So a lot of companies now willhave a green team or they will
have a community relations team,and these small groups tend to
do fringe projects or whatthey'll call initiatives on the
(09:54):
side, on the fringes of whateverthe core business is.
Yep, and when that happens, Icall that a bolt-on approach to
sustainability.
That a bolt-on approach tosustainability, we're just
bolting it onto the companybecause we feel a moral
imperative to do so or we feelthat there's some regulatory
pressure or stakeholder pressurefor us to do so.
But it really doesn't have muchto do with what we do as an
(10:16):
organization.
Scott Allen (10:17):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (10:18):
And so for a leader then in sustainability to have
that cascading effect, thatleader would want to come in and
say okay, we're going to try toembed this sustainability
mindset, social andenvironmental thinking, into
everything we do.
Scott Allen (10:33):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (10:34):
And that will guide how we make our decisions and
that brings it into thestrategic realm.
Scott Allen (10:39):
Okay, okay.
Wayne Mayer (10:41):
And then, in doing so, we're going to be looking
for well, how does what we doaffect what others do?
So, looking for that idea ofsystems, where are these systems
?
A team of people workingtogether is a system, and then
you can have systems withinsystems, and then we're going to
look at that externalenvironment.
We want to start from thatexternal environment and then
(11:03):
work our way back in.
Scott Allen (11:04):
So I'm seeing a really, really nice parallel to
leader development right now.
So let's see if this, if thislands, it may not.
Okay, we're going to try.
Yeah, yeah, you know, at timesI think DEI can be this way.
I think leader development orleadership can be this way that
you have a leadership programand, you know, oftentimes the
(11:26):
decision makers feel thatleadership program will have
some type of impact.
You know, unless leadership isconnected to any number of
systems performance management,succession planning, of course,
training and development.
But there's a whole host ofother elements, whether it's
aligned with the 360 that we'regoing to do, whether it's
(11:48):
aligned with how we recruitpeople to certain values that
then we promote as values in aperson we want in the
organization, or values of whatwe hope a leader will model.
Unless it's connected to anumber of those in this case,
like HR systems, many of themwe're going to be super limited
in our ability to have that oneday long program have any level
(12:09):
of impact.
It's going to be much lowerunless that programming is
connected to these other partsof the system and that's exactly
right.
Wayne Mayer (12:18):
Okay, okay, yes, yeah, you're exactly right.
And with that HR example, samething happens you end up with a
scapegoat department.
Yes, yeah, that HR example,same thing happens you end up
with a scapegoat department.
Yes, yeah, and this happens alot in sustainability, but you
can see it in HR.
It wasn't our fault, the greenteam did it.
Why are we over budget?
Oh, they're spending money onthis project or that project,
and so the idea then is tofigure out well, how do we
(12:40):
actually shift the way peopleperceive what we do as an
organization?
Scott Allen (12:45):
Yeah, this gets to the Kempster conversation, where
I think it was Cotswold Dairy,if I'm not mistaken, but it was
a dairy company and it was justbaked into their DNA as an
organization.
That's right.
Everything they did kind ofcame back to this, to your point
mindset, right, exactly right.
Wayne Mayer (13:03):
There's a great quote from Peter Drucker, the
American professor of managementand leadership.
He says and again I'mparaphrasing but something to
the effect of the task ofleadership is to create an
alignment of strengths so strongthat it makes a system's
weaknesses irrelevant.
Wow, and that's sort of whatwe're getting at when we talk
about embedded sustainability oran embedded mindset.
(13:25):
Yeah, I'll give you an exampleif you'd like.
Yeah, please, what we'regetting at when we talk about
embedded sustainability or anembedded mindset.
Yeah, I'll give you an exampleif you'd like.
Yeah, please.
So, actually, from Cleveland,ohio, I had the great pleasure
some years ago of working withChuck Fowler oh yeah, who's got
the over?
At Case Western.
The Fowler Center for Businessas an Agent of World Benefit
honors his name, and Chuck wasthe longtime CEO of Fairmont
Minerals, which he started.
It was called Best Sands,became Fairmont Minerals and
(13:47):
under his leadership I think itcarried all the way to Fairmont
Central.
It has since been sold to Coviaand so they're running it.
But under Chuck Fowler'sleadership, he decided early on,
before the SustainableDevelopment Goals, when the UN
had the Millennium DevelopmentGoals, that it would be a great
idea to embed this idea of theMillennium Development Goals of
(14:10):
sustainable development intocore strategy.
Scott Allen (14:13):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (14:15):
And so they started doing this and basically they
began to spiral around theiridea of moving silica sand to
market with speed as their coreinitiative or their core purpose
.
They started to spiral aroundthe idea of social, economic and
environmental responsibilityand later they actually mapped
(14:36):
that to the sustainabledevelopment goals.
But early on, one of the thingsthey did is they and because it
came top down, chuck was ableto get the board of directors
involved and approval of thisand then from there unleashed
innovation bottom up and middleout, and what he told me years
later was that it was a greatexercise in productivity.
Scott Allen (14:55):
Would you talk about that bottom up and middle
out?
Wayne Mayer (14:57):
Sure.
So one of the best ways thathis work exemplifies this is
during early years.
He basically said okay, I wanteverybody to look at whatever it
is you do for the company andthink about it from an
environmentally responsibleperspective and a socially
responsible perspective.
What does that look like?
What do you see differently?
(15:18):
What could we do different thatwe haven't thought of before?
And one of the people on theshipping receiving ends made a
very astute observation.
He said you know, we take a lotof pride in the.
We recycle our cardboard boxes,but we're trucking in boxes of
sand into the plant.
Then we're emptying the sand.
(15:39):
Abrasion from the sand destroysthe cardboard boxes so we can't
use them again.
So now we're collapsing theboxes and we're paying haul-away
fees to have them hauled away.
And he said look, there's athing on the market called the
Super Sack.
It's kind of like a heavy-dutyburlap sack designed for this
sort of thing.
And he said we could use those.
The cost would be minimalcompared to the haul-away fees
(16:02):
and the boxes, and they'redesigned to last at least 12
months of heavy use.
They made that switch.
It saved them $600,000 thefirst year and then about a half
a million dollars year on yearafter that, so right away the
CFO gets engaged.
He said suddenly I likesustainability and so this
really transformed how they didthis.
(16:23):
So that was from the bottom up.
It was somebody who wasactually receiving the trucks of
sand who made the originalobservation.
Yeah, and now Chuck did caution.
He said not every idea becomes,you know, incorporated into the
way we do business, but theempowerment idea is that
everybody is asked to bringtheir observations to their
direct boss and then up thechain so that leadership
(16:45):
actually sees, hey, we might beable to use some things
differently that have a triplebottom line effect, meaning they
help us environmentally,socially and financially.
Scott Allen (16:55):
Yes, that's awesome , that's a great story, and so
give me a couple other kind ofconcepts that you want listeners
to be aware of.
So we've got leadership andinfluence, we've got strategy,
we've got sustainability and howthese work together.
Talk a little bit more aboutthat application to business.
This is fascinating.
Wayne Mayer (17:15):
Sure.
Well, let me introduce to youall a framework that and I will
oversimplify it here, but Iwould encourage listeners to
explore it more I learned thisfrom one of the members of my
dissertation committee, a fellownamed Dr Francis Lethem, and he
had collaborated with DrWilliam Smith, and in 1980, they
had done this work.
(17:36):
At the time Francis was workingfor the World Bank, and so they
had been looking at how come alot of projects aren't as
successful as we'd like them tobe.
And then, with Francis at theWorld Bank, he said well, how
come a lot of projects?
aren't as successful as we'dlike them to be.
Okay, and then, with Francis atthe World Bank, he said well,
how come a lot of ourinternational development
projects aren't as successful aswe would like them to be?
And they came up with thisframework called the AIC
(17:56):
framework, which stands forappreciative, influential and
control.
Scott Allen (18:00):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (18:01):
And the way I like to describe it for people to
visualize is three concentriccircles the outer circles, the
appreciative environment or theenabling environment, the center
is the influential and then theinner circle is the control
sphere.
Okay, and what they observedand I've since used this as a
tool to help guide businessesthink about how they do what
(18:25):
they do and how to embrace theirexternal environments and what
they observed, Francis andWilliam, was that most
organizations, whether they'redevelopment organizations or
private sector businesses, weremaking decisions in that control
sphere Because that's wherethey actually had power.
They could make decisions, theycould make budgetary
(18:46):
allocations.
But when decisions were made inthat control sphere without
knowledge or recognition ofinfluence and appreciation, they
often ended up with mediocre orlower than mediocre results.
So they said why don't we flipthat around?
What if we start by looking atthe appreciation sphere?
(19:07):
So, just to simplify this, thatwould be if you want to open a
business and you have toappreciate the institutional
constraints that exist in thatenvironment, so the legal
frameworks.
So if you decide you want toopen a nightclub and you're
working in where ordinances sayyou must be closed by midnight,
(19:29):
you might say, maybe that's notthe nightclub.
I want the place.
I want to open the nightclub.
Scott Allen (19:32):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (19:33):
Or you're going to say it's going to be more of a
dayclub, right?
In other words, you have toappreciate your job is not going
to be to change those rules.
Your job is to appreciate thoserules.
Now, in the influential sphere,you might find that there are
organizations that are activelyadvocating to change those
curfew rules so that you canhave a nightclub that stays open
(19:55):
longer.
Scott Allen (19:55):
Yeah, because the nightclub will be a little less
popular.
Wayne Mayer (19:58):
That's right, and so what you're thinking then
would be maybe I can use myinfluence in that influential
sphere to encourage thatorganization to advocate for
what I want.
Scott Allen (20:10):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (20:11):
And so in that influence sphere you're looking
at how can I influence othersand who can influence me, and
then how my coalitions be formed.
Scott Allen (20:20):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (20:21):
And once you've identified all of those things,
so you're identifying yourstakeholders both the
appreciative stakeholders andthe influential stakeholders
before you actually makedecisions in that control sphere
.
And so then that reallytransforms how you think about
what your company does and thecontext in which it operates.
Scott Allen (20:40):
Yes, 100%.
Is this also a tool that'shelping us think more
systemically?
Wayne Mayer (20:45):
Oh, absolutely, because by doing so, one of the
things it helps you do is itlooks at purpose and power.
So you're looking at thosethree components appreciation,
influence and control and thenyou're looking at who has the
power in these differentdynamics.
Who has the purpose, and how dowe align purpose and power to
accomplish a shared goal?
Scott Allen (21:06):
Yep.
Wayne Mayer (21:07):
And so the same thing happens when you are
looking through systems, througha systems lens, and trying to
create in strategy a sharedvision.
And then, once you have thatshared vision, how do we pull it
closer to our present?
Scott Allen (21:22):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (21:23):
And this tool really helps you do that.
It helps you as well thinkabout different ways to
understand stakeholders.
So a lot of organizations nowdo stakeholder analyses or
stakeholder mapping, and they'llask at least two questions.
They'll ask who are the mainstakeholders and they'll ask
what are the interests of thosestakeholders?
But they often don't ask thethird question, which is what
are the interests of thosestakeholders?
But they often don't ask thethird question, which is what is
(21:45):
the power of each stakeholdergroup.
Scott Allen (21:47):
Oh, wow, yeah.
Wayne Mayer (21:49):
Or the fourth question, which is how are
coalitions likely to form?
Scott Allen (21:53):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (21:53):
And the AIC framework helps you see that.
It provides a visual tool thathelps you see who's really
available, who's in thatinfluential sphere with whom I
might collaborate, and there's alot of rhetoric now about
public-private partnerships andoften that's misunderstood as
hello private sector, pleasegive money to our partnership,
(22:17):
and to which either you havecorporations that are resistant
to that because that's not theirbusiness model to give away
money, or they say yes, but theywant to do it in finite amounts
.
They don't want to have thisrecurring, constant need to
donate.
So one of the things that wesee in this idea of building
partnerships is how can you doit where there's no direct cost
(22:42):
to the company?
In other words, it createsopportunities for company
savings.
It creates benefits for thecompany as well as to the
recipient, and I can give you aquick example of what that can
look like.
Scott Allen (22:52):
Yeah, please do.
Wayne Mayer (22:53):
So years ago in Peru I worked with a mining
company, first Quantum Mineralsand they were trying to figure
out how to approach communityrelations differently, and they
were working in a remote area inthe Andes where there was
another large mine that had donea lot, where they were looking
at everything transactionallyand they ended up spending an
(23:15):
awful lot of money and still nothaving communities that were
content.
So one of the things we startedto explore was what are the big
needs?
The company had bought the landfor this mining project and
embedded in what they purchasedwas a relocation.
They were going to have torelocate families, which meant
they're going to have to rebuildhousing, and so we started
looking at well, when you dothat, there are lots of
(23:36):
complications, but one that welooked at was how do you provide
water and sewer to these newbuildings that you'll have to
produce, and the usual way to dothat is to buy off-shelf
components toilet showers, sinksand then truck them to site.
What we found by looking throughthat AIC lens was that at the
(23:57):
time the water and sanitationdivision of the World Bank was
based in Lima, peru, they hadalready created a series of what
they called my Bathroom Kitsthat they had rolled out in
pilot communities in fourdifferent parts of Peru.
They wanted to bring this toscale and so in conversations
(24:17):
with them, they said well, look,if you relocate these
communities.
And in doing so with them, theysaid, well, look, if you
relocate these communities, indoing so, if you would use our
equipment, it's all sourced incountry, so it's all
domestically, the whole valuechain is in country.
So you're supporting theNational Society of Industry and
you're supporting this localproduction.
And we will provide the addedvalue of bringing extension
(24:40):
workers out to help usemicrofinance and train local
people in the community to bethe custodians of the system.
What this did, the brillianceof this idea, was that it would
provide the private sectorcompany with an exit strategy.
So they were willing to putsome money up front and they
(25:01):
were willing to invest in thesesystems and they were even
willing to help with some of theengineering designing on
putting in the water system.
But they didn't want to beplumbers for the life of the
mine.
Scott Allen (25:11):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (25:12):
And so here's a way that they could do this concept
of partnerships, of alliancebuilding, in ways that was good
for the company, not just forthe recipient of that alliance.
Scott Allen (25:23):
Yeah Well, I just finished a really good book.
I had a fun conversation forlisteners Check out the episode
with Jeffrey Beeson.
The book is called NetworkLeadership and, yeah, so his
whole kind of approach to thiswork is the power of networks,
and it sounds like this toolvery nicely helps you tap into
(25:43):
maybe even at times,unsuspecting partnerships that
you would never imagined, but itthen creates an effect where
that's so cool.
I love it.
I absolutely love it.
Oh, good, good, wayne, beforewe, as we begin to wind down our
time, what's another conceptthat you want listeners to be
aware of as critical to thisconversation around
(26:06):
sustainability leadership?
Is there another concept thatcomes to mind for you?
Wayne Mayer (26:11):
You know, I would say, around this concept of
stakeholder engagement.
So we talked a little bit justof stakeholder mapping.
But I think in sustainabilityleadership some of the easy
things to do are around thelow-hanging fruit of reducing
water consumption, reducingenergy use.
But some of the morecomplicated components come from
(26:31):
this idea of stakeholderengagement.
Scott Allen (26:33):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (26:35):
So, if we understand who those
stakeholders are, how do weengage with them?
How do we work with themInternally?
How do we engage with them?
How do we work with themInternally?
How do we really motivateemployees?
How do we use the tools ofstakeholder engagement to
actually increase productivityby creating reasons for why do I
come to work, besides doingwhat I'm paid to do?
Scott Allen (26:55):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (26:56):
Is there a level of enthusiasm to what I do?
Can I bring excitement with me?
Do I feel gratitude that I getto work with these people on
these projects, or do I feellike this is a task I must
complete because I need to earna living?
Scott Allen (27:13):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (27:14):
And there's a very different way again this idea of
mindset.
There's a different way ofthinking, and so stakeholder
engagement really can tie intothat internally and then
externally also when we talkabout sustainability.
It morphed out of corporatesocial responsibility and some
of that was heavy on corporatephilanthropy.
Scott Allen (27:34):
Yes.
Wayne Mayer (27:34):
So we're a great company, we donated to this
organization or thatorganization, this organization
or that organization, and one ofthe ways that good stakeholder
engagement helps a company isthat it enables the company to
say we're a good company, butyou don't have to take our word
for it.
We'd like you to ask some ofthese other organizations and
again in our sphere of influence, yep, and if they speak well of
(27:59):
you, then it really elevateswhere you are in your ecosystem,
in your community.
It also elevates how yourleaders are using influence and
appreciation to achieve thegoals that the organization
wants them to achieve.
Scott Allen (28:15):
Yeah, so cool.
Sir, what are a coupleresources that you would point
listeners to that have stood outfor you?
I know we spoke about Firms ofEndearment, a book that both of
us have enjoyed, but are there acouple other resources and
maybe you could talk to Firms ofEndearment if it is a resource
that you would recommend tocheck out?
Wayne Mayer (28:34):
Well, I think certainly Firms of Endearment is
helpful.
It gives you a fundamentalperspective of how to think more
broadly about responsibility inbusiness.
Yeah, More recently there's abook that I think is really
helpful for this.
It's called Full SpectrumThinking.
Scott Allen (28:48):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (28:48):
How to Escape Boxes in a Post-Categorical Future,
and it's by Bob Johanson of theInstitute for the Future out in
California.
Okay, and that book?
It helps leaders break free oflimiting labels and to see new
gradients of possibility inwhat's otherwise a very chaotic
world.
Scott Allen (29:06):
Yeah.
Wayne Mayer (29:06):
So it really helps you with interdisciplinary
thinking.
Scott Allen (29:10):
Okay.
Wayne Mayer (29:10):
Yeah.
So another that I was thinkingabout was the man who Broke
Capitalism, and the subtitlethere is how Jack Welch Gutted
the Heartland and Crushed theSoul of Corporate America and
how to Undo His Legacy.
Wow, heavy, heavy.
It's by David Gels, who's a NewYork Times writer, and it's
really great.
It really puts in perspectivehow did we get to this idea of
(29:32):
having CEO celebrities and thishuge discrepancy between CEO
earnings and worker earnings,and how did that all come out of
balance, and then what could wedo to bring it back into
balance?
A third one would just be andthis is more looking at when we
think about the energytransition, we can't not think
about mining, and so there was abook that came out last year
(29:55):
called the War Below LithiumCopper and the Global Battle to
Power Our Lives.
It's by a guy named ErnestSchneider I think it's how he
pronounced it S-C-H-E-Y-D-E-R.
Okay, ernest Schneider, and hewrites for Reuters, but he uses
storytelling to bring you intothis concept of how do we make
(30:15):
these decisions aroundtrade-offs, what's more
important, certain areas of landin pristine ecosystem style or
as deposits of copper or lithium, and should we be extracting
them or not?
And I think he's very spot onin terms of what we should be
thinking about over the nextcouple of decades.
Scott Allen (30:35):
Wow.
Well, sir, thank you so muchfor giving us a broad overview
and then helping us understandsome of the resources that are
available to us, because I thinkthis is, at least for me, a bit
of an intimidating topicbecause it's a whole world that
I don't know of.
But I feel like I understand ita little bit better because of
our conversation today and Ivery, very much appreciate it.
(30:57):
But I also love kind of thisinterdisciplinary lens of
leadership strategy,sustainability, and then, of
course, we've got systemsthinking embedded in all of this
.
That I love it.
Quickly, before we wind down, Ialways ask guests what they've
been listening to, readingstreaming, what's caught your
attention in recent times.
(31:17):
Now it could have to do withsomething we've just discussed.
It might have nothing to dowith what we've discussed, but,
Wayne, what's been on thenightstand or the television or
the iPad?
Wayne Mayer (31:27):
A couple of things.
So a podcast your leaders mightenjoy called Outrage and
Optimism, and it's a climatepodcast for people who are not
willing to give up on making theworld a better place.
That's sort of their tagline.
Scott Allen (31:38):
Oh, I love it.
Wayne Mayer (31:39):
One of the people that runs it is the former
climate change executivesecretary, cristina Figueres,
who I had the great pleasure ofmeeting her in Lima, peru, at
the COP20.
So right before the ParisClimate Agreement the year
before, and she played aninstrumental role in bringing
that Paris Climate Agreement tofruition Nice.
So she's quite something.
She's definitely worth time tolisten to.
(32:00):
There's another podcast that Idon't know as well I've only
heard parts of it, but I'veheard good things about it and
that is the Cleaning Up podcastand that's really.
He interviews leaders in cleanenergy, mobility, climate
finance and sustainabledevelopment.
And then, lastly, as kind of asideline, I just finished
reading a book, an actual paperbook called Ingrained.
(32:23):
It's by a gentleman named ColinRobinson, who is a fine
furniture woodworker in Scotlandand he does a great homage to
the business and the artistryand craftsmanship of furniture
making.
Wow, and he does.
There's great wisdoms ofleadership there.
(32:43):
He runs his own small businessand he really gives you a sense
for what it's like to be anentrepreneur in a field that
requires him to work with hishands, and it was really a
pleasure to read.
Scott Allen (32:53):
Oh, that's very cool, awesome.
Well, I will put a link to allof those in the show notes, so
listeners, check out the shownotes.
You can find them there.
Wayne, thank you so much foryour time today.
I really, really appreciate.
You Appreciate how you thinkFor listeners.
I know you appreciate that aswell.
It's pretty awesome, and youknow what?
Until next time, sir.
Wayne Mayer (33:11):
Well, thank you kindly.
And once again, thank you,Scott.
It's been a real pleasure.
I really appreciate beingincluded.
You've got a great playlist.
Scott Allen (33:18):
Oh, it's been a lot of fun.
I'm learning a lot.
Take care, sir.
All right, likewise.
Wayne Mayer (33:22):
Bye-bye now.
Scott Allen (33:23):
What a fun conversation.
Truly enjoyed that dialogue.
An expert in his field.
Thank you so much, wayne.
Appreciate you, appreciate allof you, for listening, checking
in and staying curious.
Great leaders are curious andthe research would back that up.
Take care everyone.
Thank you so much for stoppingby.
(33:43):
Be well.
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