August 6, 2025 • 37 mins
Dr. Amal Ahmadi is an Associate Professor and Program Coordinator at the College of Business and Management, American University of Bahrain. She holds a PhD in management from Henley Business School. Her research focuses on leadership and leadership development, and currently revolves around investigating cognitive, affective, and behavioral mechanisms surrounding leadership and leadership development.
Dr. Bernd Vogel is a professor in leadership and the founding director of the Henley Centre for Leadership, Henley Business School, University of Reading, UK. He holds a PhD in Management from Leibniz University Hanover. His expertise is in strategic leadership to mobilize and maintain energy in organizations, multi-level leadership, leading transformations, culture and change, and the future of leadership and leadership development.
A Few Quotes From This Episode
- “Leadership programs give you a platter of fruit; the real work is choosing what to eat and when.”
- “Structured reflection shouldn’t be optional; it has to be part of our day-to-day.”
- “There’s a dormant, inactive capacity in managers that just sits there if we don’t create space for it to breathe.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Book: The Knowing-Doing Gap by Pfeffer & Sutton
- Book: Professionalizing Leadership by Kellerman
- Book: The Nazi Mind by Rees
- Podcast: How to Fail with Elizabeth Day
- Organization: Inner Development Goals initiative
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership. Plan for Prague - October 15-18, 2025!
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
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- Blog
My Approach to Hosting
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SCOTT ALLEN (00:00):
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the world
.
Today we are in a coupledifferent places in the world
and I'm really, really excitedfor this conversation.
I have two incredible thinkersI have Dr Amal Ahmedi and I have
Dr Bernd Vogel, and they havebeen working hard on this really
(00:23):
fascinating puzzle, a nook andcranny of this whole
conversation around leadershipdevelopment.
These two are professors.
Their full bios are in the shownotes, so please check that out
.
We're going to jump right intothe conversation today because I
want it to really focus as muchas possible on the topic at
hand, which to the two of you.
I retired from full-timeacademia probably a year ago now
(00:48):
, and so I've been spending alot of time in organizations
sometimes multiple times over ayear in organizations and so
this topic of the knowing-doinggap sometimes it's also called
training transfer, transfer oftraining, really the person
taking what has been learned andimplementing it back into the
(01:08):
job the two of you have writtenthis just world-class paper in a
world-class journal about thistopic, and so I'm so excited to
jump into the conversation today.
To start, amal, maybe you giveus a little bit of background on
this topic.
Start, amal, maybe you give usa little bit of background on
this topic.
How did you get fascinatedabout this knowing-doing gap,
(01:29):
this kind of space between whatwas trained and what we know we
should do and actually puttingit into practice when we get
back on the job?
Amal Ahmedi (01:36):
Sure, well, thank you, first of all, for having us
.
Bernd is probably better attelling the story.
It all started with my PhD.
We were brainstormingchallenges, leadership
challenges and what can we workon, and so he brought this up
and it really, really stuck withme because it was something
that I personally experienced.
I was working at finance at thetime, prior to becoming an
academic, and I saw this issue.
(01:57):
People are really great expertsat the things that they did, so
they're really great experts infinance as a risk head, as an
investment placement head, andso on, but they were not so
great at leading people.
You get promoted to thesepositions based on your
technical expertise, yourknowledge base, how great you
are at what you do, but youdon't necessarily get the
(02:19):
background, the skills, thetraining, the time to practice
actually putting leadership intoaction, leading people, not
just leading your knowledge area, and so it really stuck with me
and that's how the whole thingkicked off.
So, bernd, what would you liketo add?
Bernd Vogel (02:36):
Well, yeah, so I had this idea for quite some
time and, as academics alsoworking in practice, one of the
things that you always find isthere's a paper that you should
have written yourself butsomeone else has done it.
And I think this idea byPfeffer and Sutton you know
they're knowing doing gap inmanagement, that's an eye opener
.
You read it and I think it'sjust envious, full stop,
(02:57):
exclamation mark, and let's behonest about these things.
But I thought taking this ideainto the specific area of
leadership should be afascinating journey.
And they looked at somethingelse, but just the logic was so
appealing.
And the second is that when andI think our work now, you know,
when we talk about that, it'sintuitive work as well.
(03:19):
So people get in half asentence the idea, which is just
a lucky find, if you wantaround these themes as well.
Again, you know it's nothing todo with the academics,
sometimes just the imperial, andthen people resonate, which
motivated me, and then I lookfor someone who could really
dive into that and explore that,and that's where I'm going to
(03:39):
come into play and say, well, Ireally like that idea.
You know, let me start and takethis on and really dig deep,
and that's how this started.
SCOTT ALLEN (03:47):
Great.
So, amal, would you just bringlisteners into just kind of
briefly and I know that'sprobably an unfair thing to ask
of you but talk a little bitabout what we know from a
literature standpoint about thistopic.
As you started to explore whatwere some things two or three
things that kind of stood outfor you about the literature
that currently existed, Sure.
Amal Ahmedi (04:10):
So there's so much literature out there, as you
called it earlier.
It's all on training transfer,looking at training in general
and issues that support orhinder the transfer's training
for various different areas.
So we were interested inapplying this to leadership,
because organizations spendconsiderable amount of money,
(04:31):
time, effort to develop managersinto leaders, but then not a
lot is actually being done tomeasure or evaluate training
programs or any kind ofleadership development
initiative, whether it'simplementing 360 degree feedback
or having coaches or hookingpeople up with mentors or
whatever it might be.
(04:51):
A lot is being done, but it'sseen as a checkbox.
We've done this.
We've taken five managers onthis great five-day program and
here they are.
The rising stars are back asgreat leaders, right, but are
they really?
And so what the literature does, sadly, is also focus on what
to learn about leadership, howto learn about leadership, but
(05:11):
not a lot about the return oninvestment and how to measure
what happens next.
So what are things in theorganization once a manager is
back to the workplace?
What are they doing about whatthey know about leadership?
So they accumulate all thisknowledge, so you might have a
great manager who knows exactlywhat leadership is, knows
exactly how to enact leadership,in what sort of situations.
(05:34):
They have practiced this invarious settings, maybe even on
the job experiences, but theyhaven't had the time to really
sit and think through whether ornot they're implementing this
the right way, whether they'rereally using their knowledge.
And so there's this dormant,inactive capacity that
individuals have that is justsitting there, not put into real
(05:55):
practice, not really tangiblyshowing us the value for
individuals and fororganizations, and so, sadly,
the literature has not advancedto look beyond what we could do
about this transfer problem.
We understand a lot about theproblem being there, but how can
we now close this gap?
What else can we do?
Not from an educational pointof view, not looking at
(06:15):
particular episodes, programs onleadership development but what
happens in the organizationitself?
What can individuals do?
So that's where the main area,I think, the gap is.
There's obviously more, as yousaid.
It's hard to summarize, there'sso much out there to talk about
, but this is one key area thatmotivated our research on this
particular paper.
SCOTT ALLEN (06:33):
And it's so interesting because if I send an
auto tech to training and theyare learning a process of how to
work on a new car, a BMW orMercedes, or if I am a
beautician and now I have toactually go cut hair, or if I'm
in healthcare and I'm trainingsomeone on a piece of equipment
where, if they don't implementit correctly, you know someone
(06:55):
could severely be damaged andinjured.
Or if it's something like salestraining, I can look at Scott's
abilities to sell pre-trainingand then post-training.
Did my, you know, did mynumbers go up?
And with leadership it's mentalmodels, it's things that are
happening in seclusion, like adifficult conversation where I'm
(07:16):
never really getting feedbackon how I actually performed.
At least with a therapist wecan train to cognitive
behavioral therapy and thenthere's some monitoring that
happens with that therapist andsome coaching that occurs, but
we send people back into theorganization and there's no
feedback, there's noreinforcement.
I mean there's so many kind ofnooks and crannies.
This conversation.
(07:37):
I just I'm in awe of it becauseI know that potential solutions
exist.
A solution might be the wrongword, but we can move the needle
on this.
Bernd, how do you think about?
Bernd Vogel (07:46):
it, I think from a you know, if you catch me in a
really bad mood, right, I evencall that a sustainability or
responsibility problem.
Yes, because your examples aregreat, but because what we're
actually doing is, whetherthat's in programs or at work,
we create some insights anddon't use them and for that,
(08:08):
some electricity, some gas, somedata has been used and it's
actually an attack on our planetin a way, if you're really
harsh, because we don't followup on it, it's a very harsh
perspective, but I think it'ssometimes good and I think in
leadership development overall,in conversations, you know, are
we a sustainable industry?
(08:29):
You know it's a fascinating andthat part is part, you know,
actually belongs to that.
So we're creating all thisstuff but it doesn't pay back.
So that's one where I thinkthere's a duty in a way to look
at that Difficulty is that broadrange of things that we also
expect from leaders orleadership.
That's why we struggle with thisidea of the hairdresser.
(08:49):
You know it's pretty simple, butwe want strategic, we want
face-to-face, we wantinteraction, we want complex
thinking, but we also wantempathy.
That's where it is even unfairto expect all that, but that
doesn't take away to a bit morestringent and to the individual,
but also the environment, tohelp those people you know,
(09:11):
bring more back, and a lot oforganizations aren't doing that.
And then the last one is Ithink there's also a bit of the
idea about learning at allaround leadership which often
takes away the going afterreally did we get something for
an investment?
Because, hey, it's the person,it's an intuitive, it's an art.
No, it's not only, it's bothends, and so that's why we also
(09:33):
allow ourselves.
But on the positive side, Ithink a lot of organizations get
much more clever in thecomplexity how they build their
learning environments, becausethey see what's happening and
they don't get enough back.
And then they have frustratedmanagers as well who want to
give more.
They want to give more, butthey might just not work.
SCOTT ALLEN (09:52):
Well, it's so interesting.
I'd never thought of this.
As you know, do we have a moralobligation to ensure that we're
at least working in the designIf we're partnering with an
organization and this could beexecutive education you all, at
which our universities all areengaged in and it's a huge
revenue stream for ourinstitutions and you're doing
(10:12):
executive education and is therea moral obligation to build
this in?
And on another level, is itunfair to the participants on
some level that we unload all ofthis content?
You need to be humble, you needto be strategic.
You got to build that team andwe give them the laundry list.
But it's like me going to acooking class and it's, let's
(10:32):
say, it's French cuisine, andthey do basically just tell me
all of the things that I wouldhave to know and be able to do
when it comes to French cuisine,and then I go home and I don't
ever really cook French cuisinebecause I'm a little overwhelmed
, it's kind of gnarly and youknow, I'm just going to go ahead
and put something in themicrowave.
So I hadn't thought about itthat way before, but it's really
(10:55):
, really interesting.
Amal, what's going through yourmind right now?
Probably not French cuisine isnot what you were thinking about
.
Amal Ahmedi (11:02):
No, but I'm laughing because I use a similar
example in classroom.
So, on the first day of anyleadership course, I always ask
participants or learners to tellme what they think leadership
is and start to fill up awhiteboard right, or a virtual
whiteboard, whatever it is.
And it's always too many thingsthat you just can't possibly
ask one individual to fill inthat role.
So we then talk about this mythof this heroic, unstoppable
(11:25):
leader who knows it all and doesit all and everything to
everyone.
It's just impossible.
So, similar to the Frenchcuisine example that you were
just giving, I just say listen,in this course we are exploring
a whole bunch of different tools, techniques, ideas, insights,
and I'm giving you this platterof different kinds of fruits,
but it's up to you to pick andchoose which fruit you want to
(11:46):
eat, on what day, what time ofthe day, because you can't
possibly eat them all.
So it's up to you to take whatworks for you and decide.
So it's too much.
It's too much to ask oneindividual.
But that's also possibly whythis knowing-doing gap happens
Because, as you said, it can beoverwhelming.
You learn all these differentthings.
You said it can be overwhelming.
You learn all these differentthings.
People might have different ahamoments.
(12:07):
They're making a lot of notes,going home and thinking about
these notes, and we're alwaysending every session asking go
back and reflect and think abouthow you're going to put these
learnings into action.
And so they'll get out of classor a program feeling really
elated and enlightened andexcited to go back to work and
put all of this stuff intoaction.
Then, guess what?
(12:30):
The first day they're back,that inbox is exploding.
They're catching up on all theemails they've missed out on
while studying, reflecting,doing all that fun stuff with us
, and they get right back intothat hamster wheel of meeting
after meeting, email after email, task after task that there
isn't time to sit and reflectand think about it.
Okay, they might do it for aweek or two, and this was a
common one-liner that a lot ofinterviewees gave me.
I'll go back to after a programand I'll think about what I've
learned for a week, two weeks.
(12:51):
I'll revisit it a month later.
Then I'll forget all about itand get right back to where I
started, back in that hamsterwheel.
And so it's really hard.
It's a lot of information andit's not a lot of time to digest
and think about what works.
SCOTT ALLEN (13:04):
But I think, another way of thinking about
this too.
I mean, I love that and I thinkit's so true.
Another challenge that we have,at times at least in our work,
is that in long-time listenersknow that this is a point of
contention for me, but I don'tknow that we always scaffold the
learning well.
So back to the French cuisine.
They have scaffolded thatlearning.
(13:26):
Well, they have where you start.
Maybe it's even how you hold aknife.
These are some concepts we needyou to know.
These are seven different typesof cheeses.
But they've scaffolded thelearning Like we're going to
scaffold the learning to createa pilot or a surgeon or a
beautician.
And I think at times, when itcomes to this topic of
leadership, we start all overthe place.
(13:47):
We might start with systemsthinking, or sometimes we're
starting with complexity, orwhen, in fact, should we be
starting with things likemindfulness and reflection and
listening, the white belt typecontent that we should be
(14:08):
exploring with individuals?
And I wonder if that's alsopart of the problem is that
maybe I'm starting with buildingteams and I'm missing some
basic, foundational elements ofhow I would even interact with
another group of human beings tobuild a relationship from which
then we can start to build aclear and coherent team.
So I'm thinking out loud rightnow I wonder if that's also part
(14:29):
of the challenge is that wedon't have our own shop in order
some of the time and our ownthinking clean about how we
truly because all three of us onthis discussion right now are
passionate about how do webetter prepare people to do this
really difficult work, becauseit's hard.
Bernd, would you react to that?
(14:49):
What do you think?
Bernd Vogel (14:51):
Yeah, I think you're spot on and I think that
it's quite a couple ofobservations.
In turning and run intopractical thinking, I think this
is lifelong learning and weunderestimate that.
This is lifelong learning.
And then it's an investmentquestion and it becomes a nice
thing to have or not.
Well, we see that all the time,you know.
So talk to someone in ourindustry who budgets are at the
(15:12):
moment more difficult again inthe next and half year, because
so did we make a big enoughclaim that this is essential
along the life number one.
Number two is leading self, ina way, the starting point,
instead of leading teams.
Most of the time it kicks inleading teams.
Right, oh dear, someone has ateam now or project, so no, but
(15:33):
actually should it be leadingself?
And there's some great work, aswe know, for years, that
actually start at that level andwe do some of the programs
always with identity questions,with the deep wire stuff, and I
think that's quite interesting.
Again, again, do we have thewillingness?
And then I think those thingsthat work is also where actually
and it's not all about programs, but where we have in programs
(15:54):
or in on the job learning, arewe true to our own
responsibility.
We get excited about all thatstuff that we want to give them.
You know, let's face it, that'sanother thing they really,
really need.
And there's this.
You don't have that, it doesn'twork.
And all of a sudden the designis driven by content and ideas
and things that help, but it'snot driven by well, what's the
(16:16):
design on the?
You know, knowing, doing gapquestions, so that's an
afterthought, and I think that'swhere we are part of that and
where it works is where thesethings come together.
And we see that very oftenwhere strategy and betterness.
Why do we do that?
Because we want to have abetter business and better to
our stakeholders.
It's not a nice piece of workfor an individual.
(16:36):
And then, oh, that'sinteresting, and that costs
money.
Because things cost money tomake our clients, our
stakeholders, happy, oh,interesting, things cost money
to make our clients, ourstakeholders happy, oh,
interesting.
So I think starting from thereand then building in again,
starting from the individual, iswhere this really works.
We have some in our network whodo leadership development for
everyone in the organization andthat's a different approach,
(16:57):
right, and then mixed, and allof a sudden looks different.
So I think that we're also partof the equation.
Let's face it in doing thesethings and some of the pressures
we have translate in making itwork or not work.
SCOTT ALLEN (17:09):
Yes, but I love the notion also of is this part of
our design?
And back to that morally do wehave an obligation to make it
part of the design process?
Because I also think that'ssomething in the training and
development literature.
Of course they've explored this, but I don't know the leader
development literature is reallyfamiliar with the training and
(17:29):
development literature aboutwhat instructional design
entails, because there's a lotthere.
Amal Ahmedi (17:37):
So, yes, without shifting the focus too much.
I think also part of theresponsibility lies in what
happens in the organizationalcontext.
So beyond, let's say we havethe perfect leadership program,
so we've done all the rightthings, you have the great
design, you do it all in theright order, you ask the right
questions, you challenge greatthings, fine.
But then managers go back totheir organizations and what's
(17:58):
happening there?
So there needs to, just likethe leadership literature needs
to speak with the trainingliterature, the education needs
to speak to the organizationwhat's happening afterwards?
Because there's a gap that'shappening there.
Sending people to a leadershipcourse or a program just isn't
enough.
So organizations need to stopchecking that box to say, just
because they've learned, that'sgoing to translate to something.
(18:20):
Without the follow-up inorganizations, without the
support, without realaccountability and really making
leadership a priority inorganizations, most of that
training, however good it was,will just stay in the notebook
or up in our minds but it won'tactually translate into anything
.
And so really it should beabout how can we support
managers, leaders in theworkplace, what kind of feedback
(18:44):
loops do we have?
What kind of peer support do wehave?
Is there enough time forreflection for that learning to
really materialize?
Is there space for people tofeel free to trial and error,
make mistakes?
Try to put that leadership intopractice.
Is there time for that?
Oftentimes no, there are otherpriorities, sadly.
Bernd Vogel (19:02):
Bernd, yeah, I think in one of our recent
leadership quarterly reviews onleadership development, we said
some of the future research andpractice should actually look at
the ecosystem view.
When you look at these thingsand we often look at on-the-job
learning or off-the-job at thedesigner and the learner and
maybe then the person you goback to but I think it's more
(19:25):
complicated.
We need to get that right who'sthe buyer in these things and
what decisions are made for that?
So why do you buy a programwhere there's no follow-up
inside an organization?
You shouldn't actually do it.
You some of the budget probablyneeds to go away from us.
Bad news for the business schoolto why don't we spend more
money internally actually fromthis budget?
I don't like that for us, butthat's actually what it should
(19:47):
happen.
So what's the full cost insteadof the on-the-job learning cost
, the sending people off doingall these things, and so that's
one level.
Then the interference on whatis it that we actually want to
do with these engagements aroundleadership learning?
So I think we call that a bitof an ecosystem view and we
don't understand enough aroundthese dynamics.
(20:08):
So there's something aboutstanding back.
That's all decided in thedecision making at the beginning
around this and that's kind ofbeen difficult to unravel once
you're there.
There's great other examples.
You know there's anapprenticeship system now in the
UK where the embedding isreally center stage, but that
came by policy quiteinterestingly, because we want
(20:28):
more embeddedness and so there'sa lot of levers that we can
still use right and probablyhaven't looked at as much and
don't understand as much as wecould.
SCOTT ALLEN (20:39):
I'm going to take the conversation in a direction
that you weren't expecting, soplease let me know if you don't
want to go there or you taketime to think.
So I had a wonderfulconversation recently with
Barbara Kellerman and she talksabout professionalizing
leadership.
Should we become a profession?
Should there be continuingeducation?
Should there be a certification?
If I'm an attorney, I amcertified.
If I am an accountant, I amcertified.
(21:00):
If I'm a physician, thankfullythey're getting continuing
education and they're certified.
Now should the same thing happenfor managers?
And I know that some smallerprograms exist around the world,
but is that something thatshould occur here?
Exist around the world, but isthat something that should occur
here?
Because it seems to me, toAmal's point from a few moments
(21:23):
ago we are unleashing, hopefullywell-intended people and
placing them into very, verychallenging situations and
they're simply unprepared muchof the time.
And when you look at some ofthe global statistics around
engagement and 70% of people,according to Gallup, are going
to work and they're activelydisengaged Do we have an
obligation to kind of take eventhe coaches?
Now the certified coachingindustry has kind of elevated so
(21:47):
that we aren't just unleashingpeople who are calling
themselves coaches out into theworld.
There's been some training andsome continuing education.
How do you all think about that?
Amal Ahmedi (21:56):
So what comes to my mind is I think it was Warren
Bennis who likened the processof becoming a leader to the
process of being human, becauseit takes years and years for you
to figure out what yourstrengths are, what your
weaknesses might be, where thelimitations are, and what to
build and grow.
And so, going back to the wholeidea of lifelong learning that
we started this conversationwith, learning about leadership
(22:19):
just can't stop with the oneprogram or several episodes.
There needs to be much morethan that.
So professionalizing leadershipis also more than going to this
course and then that course,and then this course and then
that course right.
So what else can be done toreally make it materialize?
But then the one other thingthat I'm also thinking about and
sorry to take the conversationto a slightly different
direction is that noteverybody's necessarily on a
(22:43):
pathway to becoming a leaderjust simply by being promoted.
Not everybody's necessarilymotivated and we talk about this
a little bit in the paper.
But if the motivation to leadisn't there, no matter how much
you try and how hard you try,that individual is simply just
not going to rise up to thatchallenge, because it's not
within them to be a leader.
To manage others.
Yes, they might want to besuccessful and be head of
(23:06):
whatever it might be, but theywant to be the head in that
technical expertise area, not inthe soft skills around managing
other people, and that's fine.
Where can that exception be?
How can we draw the line andsay, fine, you're okay to do
that and maybe you can bepromoted?
And there's a different pathwayfor you who are not interested
in leadership.
SCOTT ALLEN (23:24):
I was just working with an accounting firm where,
yeah, they were coming up withkind of partner level
designations, but it's becauseof your expertise, versus having
to go the route of doingbusiness development and leading
, because I think you're exactlyright.
There's some very wizard-likepeople that are happy sitting
behind their screen and youdon't want to build a team
(23:47):
that's not where their energy is, but it's the only path forward
.
So I love that insight for sure.
As we begin to kind of winddown our time today, I want to
go to each one of you, you know,is there anything else that you
want to say about this paper,about this work?
Because we're going to providelisteners with some links you
found intriguing, or even kindof next steps that you want to
(24:08):
highlight for listeners.
What comes to mind for you?
Bernd Vogel (24:12):
So a couple of things inside which I think is
it's passion, have notresearched, but I think is
really important.
Part of it to make it work isalso empowering leaders
themselves.
But often we think about it theother way around.
Right, and leaders empowerothers, but empower managers to
engage with their leadershipskills inside intuition much
(24:35):
more.
Don't provide barriers, andthat's the other logic.
I think that's really and saythat you empower them, right.
You know, because that's again,I'm a manager, I don't need to
be empowered.
Well, talk to anyone as amiddle to senior manager.
They will exactly talk aboutall the boundaries and the
limitations.
So empower them to engage withtheir work is one, I think,
(24:56):
going forward.
I, by the way, like the idea ofprofessionalizing.
I think the argument would bewhat's in there?
Well, we manage thesustainability development goals
with a lot of conflict.
Then we probably do the same.
So the tricky bit is, I thinkthe next level is the question
going away from the individualto leadership process, because
(25:16):
we all, again, our conversationis very much centered around
individuals, but most of theissues that we have at work
involve decision making, settingdirection, motivating,
mobilizing energy, many, manypeople.
So how do we go there andunderstand that we collectively
get the idea how we collectivelydo leadership.
(25:37):
And then how do we collectivelydo that?
Then, if you go one stepfurther, we work on the idea of
leadership as a capability of anorganization.
That's even one step furtherand I think that's where the
starting point really helps,probably to start the research,
already slightly different, withmore an endpoint in mind than
an input view, and that willhelp organizations and it adds
(26:01):
complicatedness.
But also it's the reality thatmost of leadership works with
others, but we have to startsomewhere, so that.
But it's exciting then to think, well, let's move to the next,
you know, and how would thatwork?
And again, we don't know a lotactually, or we ignore each
other in the debate because someactually are experts on that
around, but then we don't look.
So I think these are the coupleof things where I think that
(26:22):
can give a lot, and then it alsoprovides the springboard for
adding the demand yes, Amel.
Amal Ahmedi (26:29):
So Bernd nicely summarized that and, looking at
the broader view of processesand systems and you talked about
the ecosystem earlier I want totake it back to the individual.
So, as individuals, how manybooks do we read on leadership?
How many podcasts includingyours do we listen to about
leadership?
Where is this information going?
What are we doing with it?
So the key learning for me fromthis piece of research was the
(26:53):
importance of reflection, andI'd like to do more work on that
.
There is so much literature outthere on reflection, but I still
think that we need to findbetter ways to shed some light
on the importance of reflectionjust not being optional, but
something essential that needsto be part of our day-to-day.
So how can we instill structuredreflection for individuals,
ourselves and in organizations?
(27:15):
Because what I found fromspeaking to managers about this
knowing-doing gap is that thoseof them who took the time to
pause and think whether it's ontheir commute back from work, on
that train journey, or duringthat long drive, during some
quiet moments that they had, orafter some really harsh feedback
that they've heard thoseindividuals are better at then
thinking about what went wrongand they knew what they did or
(27:37):
did not do because they've takenthe time to think about it.
And so how can we build in thoseregular check-ins in our
day-to-day, whether it's yourwalk in the morning or late at
night or whatever it is that youdo?
How can you build it in to yourday-to-day so that we're not
racing from one thing to thenext and really thinking about
for every leader to think likehow was it for other individuals
(27:59):
to be at the receiving end ofme today?
What leadership behaviors haveI avoided today?
What could I have donedifferently or done better, what
this means to them and how theycan instill some structured
reflection in their day-to-dayto hopefully not end as just
knowing things, but actuallyreally thinking about how to
(28:20):
translate that knowing into realdoing.
SCOTT ALLEN (28:22):
I just love that.
I mean, I think it was saidthat we should start with
developing a solid, whole humanbeing, and I think a piece of
that we could go to aconversation on the inner
development goals.
But things like reflection,dialectical thinking,
perspective taking,metacognition, and those are all
fancy words.
(28:43):
But should we be starting thereand building some of those
habits of mind with humans sothat as they navigate all of
these different, we've giventhem some kind of master tools
to hold on to?
And I think you've justhighlighted one that's a
beautiful one Reflection,reflexivity.
Do we even know what those areand is that a habit of mine and
(29:05):
I'm at least going to be aheadof the game?
But we start with transactionaland transformational leadership
and LMX.
Bernd Vogel (29:16):
And I think that to add, you know I always look at,
you know, formula One whetheryou like it or not, fastest race
, but they do stop for somereason or another.
You know.
And if you look atorganizations, I think there's
the individual part, like Emilyyou say, but it's organization's
duty to create a culture whereit's the routine to stop, where
it's the routine to reflect, andit's not.
(29:38):
You don't do that in hiding,you know, or at the end of the
day.
So why is it not built in?
And good organizations aredoing that and the others
basically cut it out of slackand then they wonder why they're
permanently overused and thedrill just becomes faster in the
doing instead of thinking.
So I think that these thingsplay well together and I like
these, you know, underpinningtools, masteries, before they
(30:02):
also cut across others.
And but giving, allowingyourself time, being allowed to
have time and actually recognizethat this is how you become
better, working more to yourstakeholders, is a huge jump for
some organization.
Some are right in it and knowhow it works, and that's
fascinating to see.
SCOTT ALLEN (30:19):
Well, I mean, you could get into a fun
conversation right now of adultdevelopment and if are we doing
some vertical development whilewe're doing some of this
horizontal development?
And if are we doing somevertical development while we're
doing some of this horizontaldevelopment, and is that baked
into everything we're doing sothat you have an individual with
a form of mind that isnavigating some of these
complexities better prepared?
At least that's the theory, isthat they would be better
(30:41):
prepared, and so you know it'swell, and again, we're not going
to, but we could go down awhole conversation around
technology and how that canpotentially help with some of
this as well.
Maybe that's part two of ourconversation.
We will leave listeners thereTo the two of you.
Thank you so much for your work.
I really, really appreciate it.
I always check in with guests.
(31:02):
Something quickly that you'vebeen listening to, streaming
something that's caught yourattention in recent times that
might be of interest tolisteners, so it could have
something to do with what we'vejust discussed.
It may have nothing to do withwhat we've just discussed, but
what have you been streaming,listening to reading that
listeners might be interested in?
Bernd, would you start us off?
Bernd Vogel (31:22):
I could share what I'm really reading or can make
it up.
So I'm really reading this bookat the moment and I will share
that in a moment for you, okay.
So I'm reading at the momentlawrence reese.
It's a historian from the ukand he tries to understand.
The book is called the nazimind and it's 12 steps of
(31:46):
science, how people havedeveloped you know, I'm have a
german background how peopledevelop into behavior, patterns.
Subscribing that isextraordinary negative.
You know, a read has a lot ofleadership in that.
You know that's extremely.
But there's the tricky bit forme is there's learning about
that specific situation.
(32:07):
There's learning about specificpolitical situation maybe, but
it's actually quite interestingwhen we compare to some of the
organizational questions we have, how some of these elements are
in light form.
Nothing compares but howextraordinary normal people get
into that space and what's theirjourney and how can we hold
(32:29):
this up.
So it's not a very upliftingreading, I can tell you.
But it's also, I think, areally fascinating reading that
shows a lot of the difficultiesin leadership as well and how we
talk about leadership.
Actually, you know, that's someof the shocking part of that.
SCOTT ALLEN (32:47):
Yeah, not uplifting but important to be aware of
and at least have yes ML.
Amal Ahmedi (32:50):
Not uplifting.
Now I'm thinking of what I wasgoing to recommend, and again
it's maybe doom and gloom.
So a podcast that I enjoylistening to is called how to
Fail by a woman called ElizabethDay.
If you haven't checked it out,it's an interesting.
It's not leadership per se.
What she does is she interviewsindividuals and asks for three
failures that they've had intheir lives in general, some of
which will be professional andto do with leadership, but
(33:12):
generally speaking, it's allabout learning about failure and
reframing failure as actually afoundation for how we could
grow.
It's a deeply humanconversation.
It's very interesting and fullof lessons that could be
valuable for any leader, and Ithink it's related to what we're
talking about today because, aswe said earlier, in leadership
we're asking too much of oneindividual right, and so the
(33:34):
idea here is that how can welearn from things that we trial
and error and we fail at tobecome better leaders?
So I hope that your listenersenjoy listening to this other
podcast without putting too muchcompetition out there.
SCOTT ALLEN (33:46):
I'm comfortable.
I think that's awesome and it'swhat a fun topic too.
I mean again, failing.
Well, that's another topic thatwe could cover with leaders,
because that's part of the game,for sure.
Well, to the two of you, thankyou so much for your time today.
I appreciate your good work.
Thanks for helping us betterunderstand this topic called
leadership.
Take care of you all.
Have a wonderful day, be well.
(34:06):
Learning, learning, learning,practical wisdom.
For me, leaders are learners.
Speaking of learning.
Two learning opportunities foryou the ILA Annual Conference,
prague Check the show notes.
International StudyingLeadership Conference, st
Andrews, scotland, this fallCheck the show notes for that as
(34:28):
well.
Two learning opportunities,opportunities for you.
Thank you so much to my guests.
That was an awesomeconversation.
Always, always, always, lovethinking about how we do leader
development better.
As always, thanks for checkingin.
Bye-bye.
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the world
.
Today we are in a coupledifferent places in the world
and I'm really, really excitedfor this conversation.
I have two incredible thinkersI have Dr Amal Ahmedi and I have
Dr Bernd Vogel, and they havebeen working hard on this really
(00:23):
fascinating puzzle, a nook andcranny of this whole
conversation around leadershipdevelopment.
These two are professors.
Their full bios are in the shownotes, so please check that out
.
We're going to jump right intothe conversation today because I
want it to really focus as muchas possible on the topic at
hand, which to the two of you.
I retired from full-timeacademia probably a year ago now
(00:48):
, and so I've been spending alot of time in organizations
sometimes multiple times over ayear in organizations and so
this topic of the knowing-doinggap sometimes it's also called
training transfer, transfer oftraining, really the person
taking what has been learned andimplementing it back into the
(01:08):
job the two of you have writtenthis just world-class paper in a
world-class journal about thistopic, and so I'm so excited to
jump into the conversation today.
To start, amal, maybe you giveus a little bit of background on
this topic.
Start, amal, maybe you give usa little bit of background on
this topic.
How did you get fascinatedabout this knowing-doing gap,
(01:29):
this kind of space between whatwas trained and what we know we
should do and actually puttingit into practice when we get
back on the job?
Amal Ahmedi (01:36):
Sure, well, thank you, first of all, for having us
.
Bernd is probably better attelling the story.
It all started with my PhD.
We were brainstormingchallenges, leadership
challenges and what can we workon, and so he brought this up
and it really, really stuck withme because it was something
that I personally experienced.
I was working at finance at thetime, prior to becoming an
academic, and I saw this issue.
(01:57):
People are really great expertsat the things that they did, so
they're really great experts infinance as a risk head, as an
investment placement head, andso on, but they were not so
great at leading people.
You get promoted to thesepositions based on your
technical expertise, yourknowledge base, how great you
are at what you do, but youdon't necessarily get the
(02:19):
background, the skills, thetraining, the time to practice
actually putting leadership intoaction, leading people, not
just leading your knowledge area, and so it really stuck with me
and that's how the whole thingkicked off.
So, bernd, what would you liketo add?
Bernd Vogel (02:36):
Well, yeah, so I had this idea for quite some
time and, as academics alsoworking in practice, one of the
things that you always find isthere's a paper that you should
have written yourself butsomeone else has done it.
And I think this idea byPfeffer and Sutton you know
they're knowing doing gap inmanagement, that's an eye opener
.
You read it and I think it'sjust envious, full stop,
(02:57):
exclamation mark, and let's behonest about these things.
But I thought taking this ideainto the specific area of
leadership should be afascinating journey.
And they looked at somethingelse, but just the logic was so
appealing.
And the second is that when andI think our work now, you know,
when we talk about that, it'sintuitive work as well.
(03:19):
So people get in half asentence the idea, which is just
a lucky find, if you wantaround these themes as well.
Again, you know it's nothing todo with the academics,
sometimes just the imperial, andthen people resonate, which
motivated me, and then I lookfor someone who could really
dive into that and explore that,and that's where I'm going to
(03:39):
come into play and say, well, Ireally like that idea.
You know, let me start and takethis on and really dig deep,
and that's how this started.
SCOTT ALLEN (03:47):
Great.
So, amal, would you just bringlisteners into just kind of
briefly and I know that'sprobably an unfair thing to ask
of you but talk a little bitabout what we know from a
literature standpoint about thistopic.
As you started to explore whatwere some things two or three
things that kind of stood outfor you about the literature
that currently existed, Sure.
Amal Ahmedi (04:10):
So there's so much literature out there, as you
called it earlier.
It's all on training transfer,looking at training in general
and issues that support orhinder the transfer's training
for various different areas.
So we were interested inapplying this to leadership,
because organizations spendconsiderable amount of money,
(04:31):
time, effort to develop managersinto leaders, but then not a
lot is actually being done tomeasure or evaluate training
programs or any kind ofleadership development
initiative, whether it'simplementing 360 degree feedback
or having coaches or hookingpeople up with mentors or
whatever it might be.
(04:51):
A lot is being done, but it'sseen as a checkbox.
We've done this.
We've taken five managers onthis great five-day program and
here they are.
The rising stars are back asgreat leaders, right, but are
they really?
And so what the literature does, sadly, is also focus on what
to learn about leadership, howto learn about leadership, but
(05:11):
not a lot about the return oninvestment and how to measure
what happens next.
So what are things in theorganization once a manager is
back to the workplace?
What are they doing about whatthey know about leadership?
So they accumulate all thisknowledge, so you might have a
great manager who knows exactlywhat leadership is, knows
exactly how to enact leadership,in what sort of situations.
(05:34):
They have practiced this invarious settings, maybe even on
the job experiences, but theyhaven't had the time to really
sit and think through whether ornot they're implementing this
the right way, whether they'rereally using their knowledge.
And so there's this dormant,inactive capacity that
individuals have that is justsitting there, not put into real
(05:55):
practice, not really tangiblyshowing us the value for
individuals and fororganizations, and so, sadly,
the literature has not advancedto look beyond what we could do
about this transfer problem.
We understand a lot about theproblem being there, but how can
we now close this gap?
What else can we do?
Not from an educational pointof view, not looking at
(06:15):
particular episodes, programs onleadership development but what
happens in the organizationitself?
What can individuals do?
So that's where the main area,I think, the gap is.
There's obviously more, as yousaid.
It's hard to summarize, there'sso much out there to talk about
, but this is one key area thatmotivated our research on this
particular paper.
SCOTT ALLEN (06:33):
And it's so interesting because if I send an
auto tech to training and theyare learning a process of how to
work on a new car, a BMW orMercedes, or if I am a
beautician and now I have toactually go cut hair, or if I'm
in healthcare and I'm trainingsomeone on a piece of equipment
where, if they don't implementit correctly, you know someone
(06:55):
could severely be damaged andinjured.
Or if it's something like salestraining, I can look at Scott's
abilities to sell pre-trainingand then post-training.
Did my, you know, did mynumbers go up?
And with leadership it's mentalmodels, it's things that are
happening in seclusion, like adifficult conversation where I'm
(07:16):
never really getting feedbackon how I actually performed.
At least with a therapist wecan train to cognitive
behavioral therapy and thenthere's some monitoring that
happens with that therapist andsome coaching that occurs, but
we send people back into theorganization and there's no
feedback, there's noreinforcement.
I mean there's so many kind ofnooks and crannies.
This conversation.
(07:37):
I just I'm in awe of it becauseI know that potential solutions
exist.
A solution might be the wrongword, but we can move the needle
on this.
Bernd, how do you think about?
Bernd Vogel (07:46):
it, I think from a you know, if you catch me in a
really bad mood, right, I evencall that a sustainability or
responsibility problem.
Yes, because your examples aregreat, but because what we're
actually doing is, whetherthat's in programs or at work,
we create some insights anddon't use them and for that,
(08:08):
some electricity, some gas, somedata has been used and it's
actually an attack on our planetin a way, if you're really
harsh, because we don't followup on it, it's a very harsh
perspective, but I think it'ssometimes good and I think in
leadership development overall,in conversations, you know, are
we a sustainable industry?
(08:29):
You know it's a fascinating andthat part is part, you know,
actually belongs to that.
So we're creating all thisstuff but it doesn't pay back.
So that's one where I thinkthere's a duty in a way to look
at that Difficulty is that broadrange of things that we also
expect from leaders orleadership.
That's why we struggle with thisidea of the hairdresser.
(08:49):
You know it's pretty simple, butwe want strategic, we want
face-to-face, we wantinteraction, we want complex
thinking, but we also wantempathy.
That's where it is even unfairto expect all that, but that
doesn't take away to a bit morestringent and to the individual,
but also the environment, tohelp those people you know,
(09:11):
bring more back, and a lot oforganizations aren't doing that.
And then the last one is Ithink there's also a bit of the
idea about learning at allaround leadership which often
takes away the going afterreally did we get something for
an investment?
Because, hey, it's the person,it's an intuitive, it's an art.
No, it's not only, it's bothends, and so that's why we also
(09:33):
allow ourselves.
But on the positive side, Ithink a lot of organizations get
much more clever in thecomplexity how they build their
learning environments, becausethey see what's happening and
they don't get enough back.
And then they have frustratedmanagers as well who want to
give more.
They want to give more, butthey might just not work.
SCOTT ALLEN (09:52):
Well, it's so interesting.
I'd never thought of this.
As you know, do we have a moralobligation to ensure that we're
at least working in the designIf we're partnering with an
organization and this could beexecutive education you all, at
which our universities all areengaged in and it's a huge
revenue stream for ourinstitutions and you're doing
(10:12):
executive education and is therea moral obligation to build
this in?
And on another level, is itunfair to the participants on
some level that we unload all ofthis content?
You need to be humble, you needto be strategic.
You got to build that team andwe give them the laundry list.
But it's like me going to acooking class and it's, let's
(10:32):
say, it's French cuisine, andthey do basically just tell me
all of the things that I wouldhave to know and be able to do
when it comes to French cuisine,and then I go home and I don't
ever really cook French cuisinebecause I'm a little overwhelmed
, it's kind of gnarly and youknow, I'm just going to go ahead
and put something in themicrowave.
So I hadn't thought about itthat way before, but it's really
(10:55):
, really interesting.
Amal, what's going through yourmind right now?
Probably not French cuisine isnot what you were thinking about
.
Amal Ahmedi (11:02):
No, but I'm laughing because I use a similar
example in classroom.
So, on the first day of anyleadership course, I always ask
participants or learners to tellme what they think leadership
is and start to fill up awhiteboard right, or a virtual
whiteboard, whatever it is.
And it's always too many thingsthat you just can't possibly
ask one individual to fill inthat role.
So we then talk about this mythof this heroic, unstoppable
(11:25):
leader who knows it all and doesit all and everything to
everyone.
It's just impossible.
So, similar to the Frenchcuisine example that you were
just giving, I just say listen,in this course we are exploring
a whole bunch of different tools, techniques, ideas, insights,
and I'm giving you this platterof different kinds of fruits,
but it's up to you to pick andchoose which fruit you want to
(11:46):
eat, on what day, what time ofthe day, because you can't
possibly eat them all.
So it's up to you to take whatworks for you and decide.
So it's too much.
It's too much to ask oneindividual.
But that's also possibly whythis knowing-doing gap happens
Because, as you said, it can beoverwhelming.
You learn all these differentthings.
You said it can be overwhelming.
You learn all these differentthings.
People might have different ahamoments.
(12:07):
They're making a lot of notes,going home and thinking about
these notes, and we're alwaysending every session asking go
back and reflect and think abouthow you're going to put these
learnings into action.
And so they'll get out of classor a program feeling really
elated and enlightened andexcited to go back to work and
put all of this stuff intoaction.
Then, guess what?
(12:30):
The first day they're back,that inbox is exploding.
They're catching up on all theemails they've missed out on
while studying, reflecting,doing all that fun stuff with us
, and they get right back intothat hamster wheel of meeting
after meeting, email after email, task after task that there
isn't time to sit and reflectand think about it.
Okay, they might do it for aweek or two, and this was a
common one-liner that a lot ofinterviewees gave me.
I'll go back to after a programand I'll think about what I've
learned for a week, two weeks.
(12:51):
I'll revisit it a month later.
Then I'll forget all about itand get right back to where I
started, back in that hamsterwheel.
And so it's really hard.
It's a lot of information andit's not a lot of time to digest
and think about what works.
SCOTT ALLEN (13:04):
But I think, another way of thinking about
this too.
I mean, I love that and I thinkit's so true.
Another challenge that we have,at times at least in our work,
is that in long-time listenersknow that this is a point of
contention for me, but I don'tknow that we always scaffold the
learning well.
So back to the French cuisine.
They have scaffolded thatlearning.
(13:26):
Well, they have where you start.
Maybe it's even how you hold aknife.
These are some concepts we needyou to know.
These are seven different typesof cheeses.
But they've scaffolded thelearning Like we're going to
scaffold the learning to createa pilot or a surgeon or a
beautician.
And I think at times, when itcomes to this topic of
leadership, we start all overthe place.
(13:47):
We might start with systemsthinking, or sometimes we're
starting with complexity, orwhen, in fact, should we be
starting with things likemindfulness and reflection and
listening, the white belt typecontent that we should be
(14:08):
exploring with individuals?
And I wonder if that's alsopart of the problem is that
maybe I'm starting with buildingteams and I'm missing some
basic, foundational elements ofhow I would even interact with
another group of human beings tobuild a relationship from which
then we can start to build aclear and coherent team.
So I'm thinking out loud rightnow I wonder if that's also part
(14:29):
of the challenge is that wedon't have our own shop in order
some of the time and our ownthinking clean about how we
truly because all three of us onthis discussion right now are
passionate about how do webetter prepare people to do this
really difficult work, becauseit's hard.
Bernd, would you react to that?
(14:49):
What do you think?
Bernd Vogel (14:51):
Yeah, I think you're spot on and I think that
it's quite a couple ofobservations.
In turning and run intopractical thinking, I think this
is lifelong learning and weunderestimate that.
This is lifelong learning.
And then it's an investmentquestion and it becomes a nice
thing to have or not.
Well, we see that all the time,you know.
So talk to someone in ourindustry who budgets are at the
(15:12):
moment more difficult again inthe next and half year, because
so did we make a big enoughclaim that this is essential
along the life number one.
Number two is leading self, ina way, the starting point,
instead of leading teams.
Most of the time it kicks inleading teams.
Right, oh dear, someone has ateam now or project, so no, but
(15:33):
actually should it be leadingself?
And there's some great work, aswe know, for years, that
actually start at that level andwe do some of the programs
always with identity questions,with the deep wire stuff, and I
think that's quite interesting.
Again, again, do we have thewillingness?
And then I think those thingsthat work is also where actually
and it's not all about programs, but where we have in programs
(15:54):
or in on the job learning, arewe true to our own
responsibility.
We get excited about all thatstuff that we want to give them.
You know, let's face it, that'sanother thing they really,
really need.
And there's this.
You don't have that, it doesn'twork.
And all of a sudden the designis driven by content and ideas
and things that help, but it'snot driven by well, what's the
(16:16):
design on the?
You know, knowing, doing gapquestions, so that's an
afterthought, and I think that'swhere we are part of that and
where it works is where thesethings come together.
And we see that very oftenwhere strategy and betterness.
Why do we do that?
Because we want to have abetter business and better to
our stakeholders.
It's not a nice piece of workfor an individual.
(16:36):
And then, oh, that'sinteresting, and that costs
money.
Because things cost money tomake our clients, our
stakeholders, happy, oh,interesting, things cost money
to make our clients, ourstakeholders happy, oh,
interesting.
So I think starting from thereand then building in again,
starting from the individual, iswhere this really works.
We have some in our network whodo leadership development for
everyone in the organization andthat's a different approach,
(16:57):
right, and then mixed, and allof a sudden looks different.
So I think that we're also partof the equation.
Let's face it in doing thesethings and some of the pressures
we have translate in making itwork or not work.
SCOTT ALLEN (17:09):
Yes, but I love the notion also of is this part of
our design?
And back to that morally do wehave an obligation to make it
part of the design process?
Because I also think that'ssomething in the training and
development literature.
Of course they've explored this, but I don't know the leader
development literature is reallyfamiliar with the training and
(17:29):
development literature aboutwhat instructional design
entails, because there's a lotthere.
Amal Ahmedi (17:37):
So, yes, without shifting the focus too much.
I think also part of theresponsibility lies in what
happens in the organizationalcontext.
So beyond, let's say we havethe perfect leadership program,
so we've done all the rightthings, you have the great
design, you do it all in theright order, you ask the right
questions, you challenge greatthings, fine.
But then managers go back totheir organizations and what's
(17:58):
happening there?
So there needs to, just likethe leadership literature needs
to speak with the trainingliterature, the education needs
to speak to the organizationwhat's happening afterwards?
Because there's a gap that'shappening there.
Sending people to a leadershipcourse or a program just isn't
enough.
So organizations need to stopchecking that box to say, just
because they've learned, that'sgoing to translate to something.
(18:20):
Without the follow-up inorganizations, without the
support, without realaccountability and really making
leadership a priority inorganizations, most of that
training, however good it was,will just stay in the notebook
or up in our minds but it won'tactually translate into anything
.
And so really it should beabout how can we support
managers, leaders in theworkplace, what kind of feedback
(18:44):
loops do we have?
What kind of peer support do wehave?
Is there enough time forreflection for that learning to
really materialize?
Is there space for people tofeel free to trial and error,
make mistakes?
Try to put that leadership intopractice.
Is there time for that?
Oftentimes no, there are otherpriorities, sadly.
Bernd Vogel (19:02):
Bernd, yeah, I think in one of our recent
leadership quarterly reviews onleadership development, we said
some of the future research andpractice should actually look at
the ecosystem view.
When you look at these thingsand we often look at on-the-job
learning or off-the-job at thedesigner and the learner and
maybe then the person you goback to but I think it's more
(19:25):
complicated.
We need to get that right who'sthe buyer in these things and
what decisions are made for that?
So why do you buy a programwhere there's no follow-up
inside an organization?
You shouldn't actually do it.
You some of the budget probablyneeds to go away from us.
Bad news for the business schoolto why don't we spend more
money internally actually fromthis budget?
I don't like that for us, butthat's actually what it should
(19:47):
happen.
So what's the full cost insteadof the on-the-job learning cost
, the sending people off doingall these things, and so that's
one level.
Then the interference on whatis it that we actually want to
do with these engagements aroundleadership learning?
So I think we call that a bitof an ecosystem view and we
don't understand enough aroundthese dynamics.
(20:08):
So there's something aboutstanding back.
That's all decided in thedecision making at the beginning
around this and that's kind ofbeen difficult to unravel once
you're there.
There's great other examples.
You know there's anapprenticeship system now in the
UK where the embedding isreally center stage, but that
came by policy quiteinterestingly, because we want
(20:28):
more embeddedness and so there'sa lot of levers that we can
still use right and probablyhaven't looked at as much and
don't understand as much as wecould.
SCOTT ALLEN (20:39):
I'm going to take the conversation in a direction
that you weren't expecting, soplease let me know if you don't
want to go there or you taketime to think.
So I had a wonderfulconversation recently with
Barbara Kellerman and she talksabout professionalizing
leadership.
Should we become a profession?
Should there be continuingeducation?
Should there be a certification?
If I'm an attorney, I amcertified.
If I am an accountant, I amcertified.
(21:00):
If I'm a physician, thankfullythey're getting continuing
education and they're certified.
Now should the same thing happenfor managers?
And I know that some smallerprograms exist around the world,
but is that something thatshould occur here?
Exist around the world, but isthat something that should occur
here?
Because it seems to me, toAmal's point from a few moments
(21:23):
ago we are unleashing, hopefullywell-intended people and
placing them into very, verychallenging situations and
they're simply unprepared muchof the time.
And when you look at some ofthe global statistics around
engagement and 70% of people,according to Gallup, are going
to work and they're activelydisengaged Do we have an
obligation to kind of take eventhe coaches?
Now the certified coachingindustry has kind of elevated so
(21:47):
that we aren't just unleashingpeople who are calling
themselves coaches out into theworld.
There's been some training andsome continuing education.
How do you all think about that?
Amal Ahmedi (21:56):
So what comes to my mind is I think it was Warren
Bennis who likened the processof becoming a leader to the
process of being human, becauseit takes years and years for you
to figure out what yourstrengths are, what your
weaknesses might be, where thelimitations are, and what to
build and grow.
And so, going back to the wholeidea of lifelong learning that
we started this conversationwith, learning about leadership
(22:19):
just can't stop with the oneprogram or several episodes.
There needs to be much morethan that.
So professionalizing leadershipis also more than going to this
course and then that course,and then this course and then
that course right.
So what else can be done toreally make it materialize?
But then the one other thingthat I'm also thinking about and
sorry to take the conversationto a slightly different
direction is that noteverybody's necessarily on a
(22:43):
pathway to becoming a leaderjust simply by being promoted.
Not everybody's necessarilymotivated and we talk about this
a little bit in the paper.
But if the motivation to leadisn't there, no matter how much
you try and how hard you try,that individual is simply just
not going to rise up to thatchallenge, because it's not
within them to be a leader.
To manage others.
Yes, they might want to besuccessful and be head of
(23:06):
whatever it might be, but theywant to be the head in that
technical expertise area, not inthe soft skills around managing
other people, and that's fine.
Where can that exception be?
How can we draw the line andsay, fine, you're okay to do
that and maybe you can bepromoted?
And there's a different pathwayfor you who are not interested
in leadership.
SCOTT ALLEN (23:24):
I was just working with an accounting firm where,
yeah, they were coming up withkind of partner level
designations, but it's becauseof your expertise, versus having
to go the route of doingbusiness development and leading
, because I think you're exactlyright.
There's some very wizard-likepeople that are happy sitting
behind their screen and youdon't want to build a team
(23:47):
that's not where their energy is, but it's the only path forward
.
So I love that insight for sure.
As we begin to kind of winddown our time today, I want to
go to each one of you, you know,is there anything else that you
want to say about this paper,about this work?
Because we're going to providelisteners with some links you
found intriguing, or even kindof next steps that you want to
(24:08):
highlight for listeners.
What comes to mind for you?
Bernd Vogel (24:12):
So a couple of things inside which I think is
it's passion, have notresearched, but I think is
really important.
Part of it to make it work isalso empowering leaders
themselves.
But often we think about it theother way around.
Right, and leaders empowerothers, but empower managers to
engage with their leadershipskills inside intuition much
(24:35):
more.
Don't provide barriers, andthat's the other logic.
I think that's really and saythat you empower them, right.
You know, because that's again,I'm a manager, I don't need to
be empowered.
Well, talk to anyone as amiddle to senior manager.
They will exactly talk aboutall the boundaries and the
limitations.
So empower them to engage withtheir work is one, I think,
(24:56):
going forward.
I, by the way, like the idea ofprofessionalizing.
I think the argument would bewhat's in there?
Well, we manage thesustainability development goals
with a lot of conflict.
Then we probably do the same.
So the tricky bit is, I thinkthe next level is the question
going away from the individualto leadership process, because
(25:16):
we all, again, our conversationis very much centered around
individuals, but most of theissues that we have at work
involve decision making, settingdirection, motivating,
mobilizing energy, many, manypeople.
So how do we go there andunderstand that we collectively
get the idea how we collectivelydo leadership.
(25:37):
And then how do we collectivelydo that?
Then, if you go one stepfurther, we work on the idea of
leadership as a capability of anorganization.
That's even one step furtherand I think that's where the
starting point really helps,probably to start the research,
already slightly different, withmore an endpoint in mind than
an input view, and that willhelp organizations and it adds
(26:01):
complicatedness.
But also it's the reality thatmost of leadership works with
others, but we have to startsomewhere, so that.
But it's exciting then to think, well, let's move to the next,
you know, and how would thatwork?
And again, we don't know a lotactually, or we ignore each
other in the debate because someactually are experts on that
around, but then we don't look.
So I think these are the coupleof things where I think that
(26:22):
can give a lot, and then it alsoprovides the springboard for
adding the demand yes, Amel.
Amal Ahmedi (26:29):
So Bernd nicely summarized that and, looking at
the broader view of processesand systems and you talked about
the ecosystem earlier I want totake it back to the individual.
So, as individuals, how manybooks do we read on leadership?
How many podcasts includingyours do we listen to about
leadership?
Where is this information going?
What are we doing with it?
So the key learning for me fromthis piece of research was the
(26:53):
importance of reflection, andI'd like to do more work on that
.
There is so much literature outthere on reflection, but I still
think that we need to findbetter ways to shed some light
on the importance of reflectionjust not being optional, but
something essential that needsto be part of our day-to-day.
So how can we instill structuredreflection for individuals,
ourselves and in organizations?
(27:15):
Because what I found fromspeaking to managers about this
knowing-doing gap is that thoseof them who took the time to
pause and think whether it's ontheir commute back from work, on
that train journey, or duringthat long drive, during some
quiet moments that they had, orafter some really harsh feedback
that they've heard thoseindividuals are better at then
thinking about what went wrongand they knew what they did or
(27:37):
did not do because they've takenthe time to think about it.
And so how can we build in thoseregular check-ins in our
day-to-day, whether it's yourwalk in the morning or late at
night or whatever it is that youdo?
How can you build it in to yourday-to-day so that we're not
racing from one thing to thenext and really thinking about
for every leader to think likehow was it for other individuals
(27:59):
to be at the receiving end ofme today?
What leadership behaviors haveI avoided today?
What could I have donedifferently or done better, what
this means to them and how theycan instill some structured
reflection in their day-to-dayto hopefully not end as just
knowing things, but actuallyreally thinking about how to
(28:20):
translate that knowing into realdoing.
SCOTT ALLEN (28:22):
I just love that.
I mean, I think it was saidthat we should start with
developing a solid, whole humanbeing, and I think a piece of
that we could go to aconversation on the inner
development goals.
But things like reflection,dialectical thinking,
perspective taking,metacognition, and those are all
fancy words.
(28:43):
But should we be starting thereand building some of those
habits of mind with humans sothat as they navigate all of
these different, we've giventhem some kind of master tools
to hold on to?
And I think you've justhighlighted one that's a
beautiful one Reflection,reflexivity.
Do we even know what those areand is that a habit of mine and
(29:05):
I'm at least going to be aheadof the game?
But we start with transactionaland transformational leadership
and LMX.
Bernd Vogel (29:16):
And I think that to add, you know I always look at,
you know, formula One whetheryou like it or not, fastest race
, but they do stop for somereason or another.
You know.
And if you look atorganizations, I think there's
the individual part, like Emilyyou say, but it's organization's
duty to create a culture whereit's the routine to stop, where
it's the routine to reflect, andit's not.
(29:38):
You don't do that in hiding,you know, or at the end of the
day.
So why is it not built in?
And good organizations aredoing that and the others
basically cut it out of slackand then they wonder why they're
permanently overused and thedrill just becomes faster in the
doing instead of thinking.
So I think that these thingsplay well together and I like
these, you know, underpinningtools, masteries, before they
(30:02):
also cut across others.
And but giving, allowingyourself time, being allowed to
have time and actually recognizethat this is how you become
better, working more to yourstakeholders, is a huge jump for
some organization.
Some are right in it and knowhow it works, and that's
fascinating to see.
SCOTT ALLEN (30:19):
Well, I mean, you could get into a fun
conversation right now of adultdevelopment and if are we doing
some vertical development whilewe're doing some of this
horizontal development?
And if are we doing somevertical development while we're
doing some of this horizontaldevelopment, and is that baked
into everything we're doing sothat you have an individual with
a form of mind that isnavigating some of these
complexities better prepared?
At least that's the theory, isthat they would be better
(30:41):
prepared, and so you know it'swell, and again, we're not going
to, but we could go down awhole conversation around
technology and how that canpotentially help with some of
this as well.
Maybe that's part two of ourconversation.
We will leave listeners thereTo the two of you.
Thank you so much for your work.
I really, really appreciate it.
I always check in with guests.
(31:02):
Something quickly that you'vebeen listening to, streaming
something that's caught yourattention in recent times that
might be of interest tolisteners, so it could have
something to do with what we'vejust discussed.
It may have nothing to do withwhat we've just discussed, but
what have you been streaming,listening to reading that
listeners might be interested in?
Bernd, would you start us off?
Bernd Vogel (31:22):
I could share what I'm really reading or can make
it up.
So I'm really reading this bookat the moment and I will share
that in a moment for you, okay.
So I'm reading at the momentlawrence reese.
It's a historian from the ukand he tries to understand.
The book is called the nazimind and it's 12 steps of
(31:46):
science, how people havedeveloped you know, I'm have a
german background how peopledevelop into behavior, patterns.
Subscribing that isextraordinary negative.
You know, a read has a lot ofleadership in that.
You know that's extremely.
But there's the tricky bit forme is there's learning about
that specific situation.
(32:07):
There's learning about specificpolitical situation maybe, but
it's actually quite interestingwhen we compare to some of the
organizational questions we have, how some of these elements are
in light form.
Nothing compares but howextraordinary normal people get
into that space and what's theirjourney and how can we hold
(32:29):
this up.
So it's not a very upliftingreading, I can tell you.
But it's also, I think, areally fascinating reading that
shows a lot of the difficultiesin leadership as well and how we
talk about leadership.
Actually, you know, that's someof the shocking part of that.
SCOTT ALLEN (32:47):
Yeah, not uplifting but important to be aware of
and at least have yes ML.
Amal Ahmedi (32:50):
Not uplifting.
Now I'm thinking of what I wasgoing to recommend, and again
it's maybe doom and gloom.
So a podcast that I enjoylistening to is called how to
Fail by a woman called ElizabethDay.
If you haven't checked it out,it's an interesting.
It's not leadership per se.
What she does is she interviewsindividuals and asks for three
failures that they've had intheir lives in general, some of
which will be professional andto do with leadership, but
(33:12):
generally speaking, it's allabout learning about failure and
reframing failure as actually afoundation for how we could
grow.
It's a deeply humanconversation.
It's very interesting and fullof lessons that could be
valuable for any leader, and Ithink it's related to what we're
talking about today because, aswe said earlier, in leadership
we're asking too much of oneindividual right, and so the
(33:34):
idea here is that how can welearn from things that we trial
and error and we fail at tobecome better leaders?
So I hope that your listenersenjoy listening to this other
podcast without putting too muchcompetition out there.
SCOTT ALLEN (33:46):
I'm comfortable.
I think that's awesome and it'swhat a fun topic too.
I mean again, failing.
Well, that's another topic thatwe could cover with leaders,
because that's part of the game,for sure.
Well, to the two of you, thankyou so much for your time today.
I appreciate your good work.
Thanks for helping us betterunderstand this topic called
leadership.
Take care of you all.
Have a wonderful day, be well.
(34:06):
Learning, learning, learning,practical wisdom.
For me, leaders are learners.
Speaking of learning.
Two learning opportunities foryou the ILA Annual Conference,
prague Check the show notes.
International StudyingLeadership Conference, st
Andrews, scotland, this fallCheck the show notes for that as
(34:28):
well.
Two learning opportunities,opportunities for you.
Thank you so much to my guests.
That was an awesomeconversation.
Always, always, always, lovethinking about how we do leader
development better.
As always, thanks for checkingin.
Bye-bye.
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