November 12, 2025 • 36 mins
Sabina Nawaz is the author of YOU’RE THE BOSS: Become the Manager You Want to Be (and Others Need) and an elite executive coach who advises C-level executives and teams at Fortune 500 corporations, government agencies, nonprofits, and academic institutions around the world. Sabina routinely gives speeches each year and teaches faculty at Northeastern and Drexel Universities. During her fourteen-year tenure at Microsoft, she went from managing software development teams to leading the company’s executive development and succession planning efforts for over 11,000 managers and nearly a thousand executives, advising Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer directly. She has written for and been featured in Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Inc., Fast Company, NBC, Nasdaq, and MarketWatch.
A Few Quotes From This Episode
- “It’s not power that corrupts. It’s pressure.”
- “As our job expands, the added pressure to perform corrupts our actions, and our increased power will blind us to the impact of those actions.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Book: You’re the Boss: Become the Manager You Want to Be and Others Need by Sabina Nawaz
- Forbes Article: “Under Pressure: Why Stress, Not Power, Corrupts Leadership Actions” by Sabina Nawaz on Forbes
- Book: Creative Acts for Curious People by Sarah Stein Greenberg
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership.
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
- Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
My Approach to Hosting
- The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allen (00:00):
Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today, I have an author andeducator, and well, just all
kinds of things.
And you'll learn about that ina moment.
Sabina Nawaz, and she's theauthor of You're the Boss,
Become the Manager You Want toBe and Others Need.
She is an elite executive coachwho advises C-level executives
(00:22):
and teams at Fortune 500corporations, government
agencies, nonprofits, andacademic institutions around the
world.
Sabina routinely gives speecheseach year and teaches on the
faculty at Northeastern andDrexel Universities.
During her 14-year tenure atMicrosoft, she went from
managing software developmentteams to leading the company's
(00:43):
executive development andsuccession planning efforts for
over 11,000 managers and nearlya thousand executives.
Advising Bill Gates and SteveBallmer directly, she has
written for and been featured inthe Harvard Business Review,
the Wall Street Journal, Forbes,Inc., Fast Company, NBC,
NASDAQ, and Market Watch.
(01:04):
Savina, thank you so much forspending some time with me
today.
I am so appreciative of yourwisdom that you're going to
share with our listeners.
I can't wait to jump into thebook.
But what I would love to do iswhat's not in the bio that
listeners should know about you.
Maybe we start there for just amoment.
Sabina Nawaz (01:23):
Well, thank you, Scott, for having me on the
show.
I am so excited about whatyou're trying to do right now
with the content and bringingthis practical wisdom to your
audience, which ties intosomething about me.
I think of myself as aminimalist contrarian.
You know, listeners, you'relistening to this podcast,
(01:46):
you're listening to dozens ofpodcasts.
What do you do with it?
Often nothing.
You just sort of think aboutit.
Maybe you discuss one of thoseat a dinner conversation.
But for me, the smaller theactions I can provide people,
the more likely they are to takeaction.
So that's the minimalist piece.
Everybody's busy, everybody'sgot pressure.
(02:08):
How can we create things in thesmallest possible chunk?
And the contrarian piece is toup-end conventional wisdom.
We are living in a time wheretruly the old formula is not
going to succeed.
Not only is it not going tosucceed, it's going to help you
tank really fast.
So it's time to reverse, almostliterally reverse, some of the
(02:32):
statements we have been sayingforever.
Scott Allen (02:35):
Yeah.
Well, I have so much, I mean, Ikeep hearing when I'm working
with organizations, uh, which isa few times a week.
And and Sabina, like you, it'sall over the place.
It might be oil and gas oneday, and then it might be
construction, and then it mightbe automotives, and then a
nonprofit, banking, healthcare.
But I keep hearing things liketime starved.
(02:57):
I keep hearing things that, youknow, even for someone to go
offline for a half day or a fullday, they, they're they're
anxious and agitated in the roombecause of everything else that
is happening around them.
And so I love kind of the, andwe could go to maybe the work of
BJ Fogg or or James Clear, justthe atomic, you know, you and I
(03:17):
should write the book LittleBaby Subatomic Habits, and we
will become billionaires.
Sabina Nawaz (03:23):
Absolutely.
In fact, uh, one of the threatsthat's through every chapter of
the book is what I callmicrohabits.
Yes.
Which is exactly it's the babysubatomic habits that are so
ridiculously small, as Fogg alsosays, that not doing it is
harder than doing it.
Scott Allen (03:43):
Yes.
Which which I love, which Iabsolutely love.
I mean, I literally I have akeynote coming up, and I did the
math today.
I'm gonna have 160 people in aroom.
This is a construction company,and and they want to talk about
culture and they want to talkabout actually making work fun,
which is kind of an interestinguh challenge, which I absolutely
(04:06):
love.
But I think if I remembercorrectly, I said, look, if 160
of you just get one positive outa week, that's 800 uh in those
five days.
And then if we do that for 52weeks over the year, there's
tens of thousands of, and we'veshifted the weather patterns.
We've shifted the system in areally substantial way, and
(04:29):
that's one, just each of you,one.
And uh so uh we are on the samewavelength for sure.
Sabina Nawaz (04:36):
I love this notion of shifting the weather
pattern and how does thatweather pattern shift with one
tiny acknowledgement every day.
Scott Allen (04:43):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (04:44):
So this thing of you can dream really big and you
should, because that purpose isgonna anchor you, especially
when times are tough.
But then act small.
Scott Allen (04:54):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (04:55):
Act small every day, you're gonna get to that
dream.
Scott Allen (04:58):
I love it.
Act small every day.
There's a wonderful video byKobe Bryant, and and he says,
you know, uh a little bit everyday and do that for a year and
do that for five years and dothat for 10 years, and you are
one of the best.
And so, okay, so I I'm I'mreally excited to jump in and
talk about the book a little bitbecause I I I would love
(05:21):
listeners to just have a tasteof kind of how you're thinking.
And so you're the boss.
Become the manager you want tobe, and others need.
What are a couple things youwant listeners to know?
And and we're not going toshare everything because we want
them to be intrigued and wewant them to go to Amazon or or
their seller of choice and pickit up.
(05:42):
But uh, what do listeners needto know about your work?
Sabina Nawaz (05:46):
Well, there's three things in the book that
they might start with.
One is that promotions areoften the riskiest times in your
career.
Riskiest times in your career.
Second is that remember I saidI'm a contrarian.
Uh so I don't agree that powercorrupts.
It's actually pressure thatcorrupts.
Scott Allen (06:07):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (06:08):
Under pressure, each of us has a choice point to
manage it or have it manage us.
And when pressure manages us,we raise our voice, we give
harsher criticism thannecessary, raising pressure for
everyone else.
We go from good boss to bossfrom hell in an instant.
Okay.
The third piece is that powerthen comes in and isolates us
(06:31):
and insulates us.
So we are the last ones to findout the impact we are having
when we act out under pressure.
Of course, the harm we might becreating, because nobody wants
to tell the person in a positionof power what they don't want
to hear.
Scott Allen (06:47):
Yes.
Yes.
Well, let's okay, let's go intoeach one of those areas a
little bit.
I'm I'm intrigued.
I'm very, very intrigued.
And I see the pressure, I seethe fear in giving others
feedback.
So I see a number of thesethings every day.
So let's talk a little bitabout each one of those, if you
would.
Sabina Nawaz (07:07):
Well, let's start with why are promotions
sometimes the riskiest times inyour career?
Yeah.
And this is, of course, let mefirst just acknowledge it's
wonderful.
You got promoted.
Congratulations.
It's great to celebrate that.
And you got promoted becauseyou were great at something.
That great thing is going tolook very different to the next
(07:31):
that are now craning up towardyou.
So let's say this is you justgot promoted to a manager.
And let me ask you this, Scott,if you're willing to play.
Scott Allen (07:41):
Sure.
Sabina Nawaz (07:42):
What would be a key strength of yours?
Scott Allen (07:45):
So a key strength of mine is um task orientation.
I can plow through tasks like achamp.
Sabina Nawaz (07:56):
Yeah.
Fabulous.
So task orientation.
Now let's say that you getpromoted to manager or manager
of managers.
You get more senior.
Scott Allen (08:07):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (08:07):
How might that task orientation?
It's possible that that taskorientation is seen as wow, my
manager responds to my messages,makes decisions, helps me get
things done.
How else might it be viewedfrom people who are who are
across what I call the power gapfrom you?
Scott Allen (08:25):
Well, okay, okay.
I mean, I I've had thisfeedback.
And so early in my career, itwas that I struggled to slow
down and be truly present whenuh you know an individual walked
into my office, or I struggledto prioritize the people part of
the work versus the task partof the work.
(08:47):
I get energy from knockingthings off the to-do list, but
slowing down to have aconversation or a coaching
dialogue, um, that was at times,especially when I was younger,
an annoyance.
And I didn't want to have to dothat.
So that strength became aweakness for sure.
Sabina Nawaz (09:04):
Yeah.
So, well, I I don't know thatthe strength became a weakness.
Scott Allen (09:08):
Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (09:09):
I I am not saying ditch that strength.
Sure.
Keep that strength, append anand.
Scott Allen (09:16):
Yes.
Yep.
Sabina Nawaz (09:17):
That and when you get promoted, more people are
dependent on you.
There's more of a connectionthat needs to be made because
guess what?
You're not just working alonein your office and somebody
sliding pizza under the door foryou every night.
So you've got to bring othersalong and you've got to see how
that strength is landing on themand at the end.
(09:38):
So I'm sure you've done that,Scott, with the feedback you've
gotten from your early years.
But there are so manystrengths, and every single one
of them has a counterpart.
So detail orientation, ofcourse, can become
micromanaging.
Guess what?
Strategic can lookmanipulative.
I had a coaching client who'svery, very strategic, got
promoted because she'sstrategic, and then suddenly she
(10:02):
starts to get feedback thatshe's manipulative and
political.
She's like, Wait, wait, what?
What's that about?
So when I dug into thatfeedback by interviewing people
who work for her, what I learnedis her behavior of sometimes
not speaking early in a meeting,waiting till the halfway point
to see what people wereconcerned about, where they
(10:25):
were.
She truly was deeply trying tounderstand that and add value in
a relevant fashion.
But to them, it looked like sheis sizing up the room.
She does, she's going to be uhnoticing what the senior most
person is saying, which way thewind is blowing, we don't know
where she stands, all of thesethings.
(10:45):
And the fix was relativelysimple once she realized that.
She continues being strategicand she uses a tool in the book
I call mapping, where sheexplains, I tend to not speak in
the first 15 minutes of ameeting because this is what I'm
doing.
If you want my opinion in thosefirst 15 minutes, ask me.
I will share it.
Scott Allen (11:06):
Yes.
Well, and and that's sowonderful because, you know,
again, also in some 360s alongthe way, I had gotten feedback.
Let's see, um, can be overlyassertive in his opinion and
intimidates others tocontribute.
And I thought I was justparticipating, but I didn't
understand some of the powerdifferential that was going on
(11:28):
or that people experienced orperceived.
So then I learned to say,similar to what you just said,
hey, I don't care if it's myidea or your idea or a third
idea.
Let's just find the best idea,never hesitate to push back.
If you think that I'm goingdown the wrong road or to be a
contrarian in the meeting,please do that.
(11:48):
And then of course I have toactually follow through with
modeling that I value that.
And I I would say, look, wemight not always, or I might end
up making a decision youdisagree with, but I always want
to hear what you have to say.
And then that kind of managedthat impression a little bit.
Um, I'm sure it didn'teliminate it, but I love how
you're framing that for sure.
Sabina Nawaz (12:08):
Well, Scott, so I want to build on what you're
saying.
This is so good, so good,because it's great that you are
letting people know that.
And guess what?
People will still not do it,especially the more senior you
are.
They'll just not, because everyperson has learned to say that,
they don't know the differencebetween who really means it and
who doesn't.
So modeling it is great.
Here's another thing to reallymake sure it happens is don't be
(12:32):
the first person to speak withyour idea.
Obviously, you're convening themeeting, you're the first
person to speak to frame themeeting.
But then when it comes toideation, be at least the third.
So now people and and make thatknown.
So they again don't thinkyou're playing some weird game
on them.
But now they know, now thoseideas can come unvarnished.
(12:57):
They don't have to worry abouthow much do I disagree with the
boss.
Scott Allen (13:01):
Yep.
Well, it's so interesting.
And this is a little teeny bitoff topic, but you know, another
thing that I've been interestedin lately is some of the uh we
we could call it PTSD, we couldcall it trauma, we could call it
just negative experiences thatpeople have had with other
bosses.
So, to your point of what youjust said, even if you are the
(13:25):
most well-intended, transparent,trying to be on the up and up,
people bring in a lot of thingsgoing on.
It maybe they had a previoussupervisor that said, like you
said, they knew to say it, butthey didn't actually follow up
on it, or their career wasstalled because they spoke up in
a meeting.
And so it's so interesting tome, kind of that and I the word
(13:49):
trauma might be a little bit toointense, but some of that that
people bring into even whenyou're trying to be super
transparent on the up and up, uhpeople still, like you just
said, are gonna struggle attimes to actually act on what
you are suggesting.
Sabina Nawaz (14:07):
Absolutely.
And that's where power comesinto the equation.
Our relationship to authorityis is fraught, it's complex, it
starts from birth.
All of that stuff is gonna comein, even if you're Mother
Teresa.
People are going to feelintimidated just by your
positional power alone.
So power creates this gap.
And my book has four commonpower gaps.
(14:29):
And what to do to narrow that?
How do you reduce that?
One of those is to shut up, isto exercise what I call your
shut up muscle by being thethird to speak, by taking notes
and not just verbal vomitingeverything, by noticing your
interruption cues.
How do you build that muscle?
Scott Allen (14:47):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Well, um, okay.
So I I love this framing thepressure versus power.
So let's talk a little bitabout that.
Pressure.
Sabina Nawaz (15:00):
Yeah.
Can I ask you a question again?
Scott Allen (15:03):
Yeah, please.
Sabina Nawaz (15:04):
Well, what when you're at your best under
pressure, I imagine you get alot done because you have that
task orientation, Scott.
Is that right?
Scott Allen (15:13):
Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (15:13):
And things just become really focused, you
compartmentalize, and you canhome in on it.
When you're yes, yes, oh, forsure.
Scott Allen (15:21):
I I know what music to put on, where to go.
I know exactly kind of whatsetting to, and then I just I
just put my head down and Iplow.
Sabina Nawaz (15:30):
Oh, look at that, folks.
You should you should just havean episode just from Scott on
how to deal with pressure atyour best because you've got
there's an end coming, isn'tthere?
Yes, and you're human.
So I imagine there are timesyou're not at your best when
under pressure.
Yes.
If you're willing to tell onyourself, what is it that you do
that you're not necessarilyproud of when you're not at your
(15:53):
best under pressure?
Scott Allen (15:54):
Well, I I have a it's it's called the personal
leadership profile.
And so it's a a one-pagedocument that just kind of
outlines me as a you know, whatyou're gonna get when you're
working with me.
And I say in it, at times underpressure, under stress, I can
get a little bit curt.
I can kind of go within and andgo right into the computer and
(16:17):
attack whatever I need toattack.
unknown (16:19):
Yeah.
Scott Allen (16:19):
And I can become accessible inaccessible.
And and again, maybe not evenall that present.
We might have a conversation,but I'll I'll say if it seems
like I'm not present, challengeme on that because my mind might
be elsewhere.
So my mind will wander and I'llhave a whole conversation and
(16:39):
not hear what we just discussed.
Sabina Nawaz (16:42):
Yeah, yeah.
And here, so that's what I meanby pressure corrupting is we we
start to act in ways when ourtime is squeezed, it squeezes
out our humanity.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (16:53):
And we start to act in ways our we're not in our
thinking brain, we are in athreat state.
So we're in fight, flight,fright, fawn mode.
And so we raise our voice, wego curt.
I was just doing someinterviewing to get feedback on
a CEO coach, and they said, Oh,he's just really pouty, and
(17:16):
really uh, I said, What doesthat mean?
It's like, well, when he getsbad news and he's under so much
pressure right now, he just goesinto his office and pouts.
And I'm like, Well, how do youknow he pouts?
Well, his responses become verycurt, just yes, no.
You see him in the hallways,he's not even making eye contact
anymore.
He's like those waiters who areconstantly not making eye
(17:39):
contact when you're trying to uhget extra catch up.
So so it and what's happeningto these people, they're worried
because power is like a brokenvolume knob, it's a distortion.
Everything that's coming up, aswe've talked about, is milder
than what the employeeexperiences.
(18:00):
So when they say yes, boss,everything's fine, they mean
I've started a secret group chatabout your management style.
Now, similarly, everythingthat's coming down is amplified
and it's not just amplified,it's personal, it's directed at
me.
So a casual, hey, can we meeton Monday means oh my gosh, I
better pack my boxes thisweekend.
Scott Allen (18:22):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (18:23):
Right.
So when you're acting underpressure in less than salubrious
ways, just slightly curt, noteven, you don't even have to be
very curt, you don't even haveto curse and swear, which some
people do, but just slightlycurt, not having that beautiful
smile that I have the benefit ofseeing right now on screen,
Scott, then the other people arethinking I'm fired.
(18:47):
And when employees feel thatway, research shows that they
even deliberately sabotage theirown work to tank business
results just to get back at thebus.
Scott Allen (19:01):
Wow.
Sabina Nawaz (19:01):
So it's not healthy for you, it's not
healthy for them, and it is nothealthy for the work.
Scott Allen (19:06):
Yeah, but you used a word there.
I I think it was the this wasthe word distortion.
Is that is that the word thatyou used?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah.
Scott Allen (19:13):
It's such a beautiful word because I think,
yes, even the simplest,straightforward message can be
distorted in the mind of thereceiver.
Or at least it goes to thewhole world of possibilities of
what it could mean, quoteunquote.
And as humans, we don'tnecessarily go to all of the
optimistic meanings uh first.
(19:34):
We catastrophize.
Sabina Nawaz (19:37):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yes.
And it goes back to that traumayou were calling, our
relationship with authority,whatever, you know, it's wired.
We're wired to see the threatfirst, the negative first.
Scott Allen (19:49):
Yeah.
So the the third one where thethe individual can become a
little bit isolated.
And again, speaking ofdistortions, Bomer or Gates
might be walking around with avery distorted perspective of or
or jobs or whatever.
I mean, any C-level executivecan be walking around with a
(20:11):
distorted perspective on a lot.
Sabina Nawaz (20:14):
You bet.
And it can be little things, itcan be big things.
It can be little things like,oh, I'm convinced that purple
looks very flattering on mebecause everybody's told me what
a beautiful color that is onme.
And then, you know, just askyour 13-year-old and they'll
tell you, mom, seriously, youneed a fashion moment here.
(20:35):
So, you know, so thisdistortion happens.
It happens with just aboutevery client I coach.
Well, let's make that clear.
Every client I coach.
The minute I go get feedback inthis process called a 360 that
you and I are familiar with,where I'm interviewing about a
dozen people that work with theperson, and I bring that
(20:57):
feedback to my client.
There is not a single personwho's not surprised or shocked
by the feedback, not by thebigger categories, but by what
people are actually saying.
It hits them.
And they go because look, themajority of people, despite what
we might read in the press, arenot waking up in the morning
(21:20):
saying, Let me make lifemiserable for my people.
Scott Allen (21:23):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (21:25):
So they're waking up wanting to do a good job,
wanting to move the workforward.
And no employee is saying, Oh,I want to go to work and and
play revenge video games againstmy boss every day.
They want to be productive andcontribute as well.
When this distortion happens,it it shuts down the connection,
(21:49):
the relationship, and theproductivity.
Scott Allen (21:54):
Shuts down.
Talk about that.
Go a little bit deeper there.
It shuts down.
I mean, that's a powerfulphrase.
Sabina Nawaz (22:01):
Well, I have employees for the one of the
interviews I just did where theyare throwing up.
They're actually throwing upbefore going and talking to the
boss.
Scott Allen (22:14):
Wow.
Sabina Nawaz (22:15):
So their brain is shut down and their body has
shut down.
Well, often our bodies aregateways to our brain.
Their body is giving thempowerful cues that there's so
much danger there that, youknow, let's hold you back, let's
have you throw up.
You know, so that's that's oneway of shutting down.
You know, I'm also thinking ofthis other person I coached, and
(22:39):
it shuts down work.
So it shuts you downphysically, it shuts you down
mentally and emotionally.
It's also shuts down workbecause guess what those
employees are doing?
They're spending all their timetalking about you instead of
doing the work.
Now, there is one.
Remember, I said I'm aminimalist.
So there is one really simpletool that you can use, not to
(23:04):
solve all of this, but to makeinroads.
And that is a numbering scheme.
Scott Allen (23:11):
Okay.
Sabina Nawaz (23:12):
With this distortion, everything the boss
says comes across as superimportant, high priority, high
volume because of theamplification.
What if you used a numberingscheme?
So if you said on a scale ofone to 10, this is a seven.
On a scale of one to 10, thisis a 19.
(23:32):
Because here's the other thing.
If everything comes across atthe same volume, a 10 for the
employee, you might end upgetting frustrated because the
one that's truly a 19 is notgetting done with a sense of
urgency.
Well, maybe because everythingseems the same to them.
Scott Allen (23:51):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (23:52):
So so use a number to communicate where it
is in terms of priority, interms of your excitement, or in
terms of your concern.
And by the way, if something isa two or a three, maybe you
need to go back and exercisethat shut-up muscle and not
randomize people.
Scott Allen (24:12):
Well, and I mean, at least in my own career, it's
it's fascinating to watch itplay out where a leader that
doesn't know that they're anextroverted thinker, for
instance, right?
You know, you have an E N onthe Myers-Briggs type indicator,
someone who's just anextroverted thinker and they're
people walk out of meetings andthey say, Well, he just said we
need to do this.
(24:32):
And, you know, I would be inconversations.
I think he was just thinkingout loud, we should double check
if that's really what he wantsto do.
But they were marching down theroad.
And I mean, again, that thatkind of distortion, uh if you're
not known as someone who's opento feedback, or if you are
again under that pressure and alittle bit curt, and think of
(24:56):
the rework that's happening inorganization and the mental
energy and the physical energy,the wasted energy at times.
It's fascinating.
It really is.
Sabina Nawaz (25:05):
It is, it is.
And uh, given that we spend themajority of our lives at work,
why would you do that?
Scott Allen (25:14):
Well, okay.
One question I have as we beginto kind of think about winding
down our time.
I loved, uh, I don't know ifyou're familiar with Jocko
Willink.
Do you know Jocko?
So he wrote a book.
He's a Navy SEAL, and he wrotea book called Um Extreme
Ownership.
It was really, reallyinteresting because he he wrote
(25:35):
this book and he had a co-authorand they they put it out into
the world, and that kind of thatbook was was taken to an
extreme in some contexts.
Once it interfaced with humanbeings, you know, you had a a
shop floor manager that just youknow demanded extreme ownership
(25:56):
in in their in their shop.
So it was really beautifulbecause in their second book,
they they said, look, this canbe taken too far as well.
I mean, they learned once ithad kind of interfaced with
human beings and interfaced withthe public.
And I really, really had greatrespect for them that the fact
that they came back and said,look, we're learning as well,
(26:18):
and this is something we'velearned about the work.
So what are some reflectionsyou have on kind of watching the
book interface with the public?
Are there new insights or arethere something, is there
something that's intrigued youas a phenomenon that's come back
that has caught your attention?
Sabina Nawaz (26:37):
A couple of things.
Being an E N in Myers Briggsmyself, I will think out loud.
One thing that surprised me wasthree people so far have come
to me and said that they haveanonymously gifted my book to
their boss.
Scott Allen (26:54):
Interesting.
Sabina Nawaz (26:55):
And I thought, well, great, they found value in
it and they think this willhelp their boss.
Two, this is the power gap inaction where they're not able to
give that transparently totheir boss in the spirit of
collaboration and hey, boss,this is a great book and a
resource.
There's a fear there, so it hasto be anonymous.
(27:16):
And three, I have hope thatafter the boss reads that book,
they it will break that down, itwill break that barrier down
further.
So that was one thing thatsurprised me.
Another one is a seniorexecutive i coach said, Can you
just change the jacket cover ofyour book and title?
(27:37):
And I said, What do you mean?
You don't like red, you don'tlike the word boss?
What's what's up with this?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (27:42):
And he said, No, no, no.
My partner and I are using thisbook with our children.
We are talking about thechapters after dinner, and we
are creating microhabits.
We have talked about thecommunication fault lines, we've
talked about the singularstory, multiple meanings.
So all you have to do is nowsay you're the parent as the
(28:06):
title of the book.
Yes.
Change the cover, change thetitle, and this is just as
applicable at home as it is atwork.
Love it.
So that those are things thatthat um I mean, I talk at the
end of the book that you can usethis for a number of things,
but it was really powerful tosee that from somebody.
I also find, like you, Scott,that people are really
(28:28):
resonating with this notion thatpressure has the power to
corrupt us.
Scott Allen (28:32):
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
And what that means.
I think that is more accuratethan the power.
You know, the what's the what'sthe famous quote?
You know, power corrupts andabsolute, power corrupts
absolutely.
I agree with you.
I think if someone is ascendedto a role of uh authority, maybe
not as likely in a family-ownedbusiness or in a privately held
(28:54):
company sometimes, but ifsomeone's ascended to a role of
authority, a position ofauthority, in a let's let's just
say in a normal publicly tradedorganization, I do believe it's
the pressure.
I I don't think it's the powerthat shifts.
I think for some, of course,that's the case, but the immense
pressure that these highachievers likely, right, are are
(29:16):
feeling and experiencing andthe distortions they experience
back to your numbering system,right?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Scott Allen (29:23):
I I love that distinction that you've you've
landed upon here because I Ithink that is the core.
I think that's at the core.
Sabina Nawaz (29:31):
It is.
And I'm really seeing that aspeople read the book, they're
really gloming onto that pieceand then going, okay, so now you
mean I don't have to go on aretreat for three weeks and I
don't have to have a personalitytransplant.
I can apply this tool.
I love multiple meanings, or Ilove whatever the you know, name
(29:51):
your tool.
There's 16 of them in the bookthat they that they use to then
go, okay, all is not lost.
Yes, I I have something tograb.
Me with this.
Scott Allen (30:02):
Well, and I love the fact that you have tools in
the book, 16 of them, so thatnot only are you identifying
something as a concept, butthere's some action I can take
to uh, you know, practice or tominimize or to experiment with
to see if that's something thatyou know what I mean?
(30:22):
I mean, I just love that.
Sabina Nawaz (30:24):
Well, I know exactly what you mean, Scott,
because I'm an engineer bytraining.
And so once an engineer, you'reit's really hard to get that
out of me.
And it's it's got to be justlike your task focused, I'm
practical application focused.
It's it's got to be applicable.
If you had a good time readingthe book, yeah, you can also
watch Netflix and have a goodtime.
So, what are you gonna do withit?
(30:46):
Is the real question here.
Scott Allen (30:48):
I want to watch this on Netflix.
I I think we could create awhole new.
We will write baby subatomichabits and we will make a
Netflix special out of it.
Deal.
Sabina Nawaz (30:59):
Deal.
We can live coach people ontheir baby subatomic habits,
God.
Scott Allen (31:04):
They're subatomic, little tiny baby habits.
Oh well, okay, as we wind downour time today, I always ask
guests the last question, whichis you know, uh, speaking of
Netflix, what have you beenstreaming or what have you been
listening to?
What has caught your attentionin recent times?
It may have something to dowith what we've just discussed
(31:25):
and leadership and management,but it might have nothing to do
with what we've just discussed.
So uh, what's caught yourattention in recent times that
listeners might be interestedin?
Sabina Nawaz (31:34):
I read four or five books at the same time.
So I get, you know, am I in themood for the heavier read here
or the lighter read there?
Uh and the I believe it'scalled Creative Acts for Curious
People.
It comes out of Stanford DesignSchool.
Scott Allen (31:51):
Oh, wow.
Sabina Nawaz (31:52):
And it's a number of activities that people can
do to free up some of theircreativity and to approach
things from very differentangles like a great designer
would.
That has really stimulated mycreative juices in turn.
So that's one of the books I'mreading.
(32:13):
And the other one that I justfinished this morning, it's
called The Power of Pressure,which of course you can see from
its title why I would pick itup.
It's by Dane Jensen.
And it's a fantastic read.
Again, some very practical waysto understand pressure and then
how to address it.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Okay.
Sabina Nawaz (32:33):
And then my husband and I are binge watching
The Resident on Netflix, whichis a standard hospital drama.
Scott Allen (32:41):
Okay.
Okay.
What's the one that just wonall of the Golden Globes?
I'm thinking a pit.
Was that the I think?
Sabina Nawaz (32:47):
Yes, I that's next on the list.
In fact, my nephew, who is adoctor, said, watch the pit.
That's the best one.
Scott Allen (32:55):
So awesome.
Well, Sabina, thank you somuch.
I really, really appreciateyour time today.
We'll have anotherconversation, I hope.
Sabina Nawaz (33:04):
I hope so too.
Be careful what you ask for.
Scott Allen (33:07):
Okay, take care.
Be well.
Sabina Nawaz (33:09):
Thank you.
Scott Allen (33:11):
Okay.
Incredible respect for all thatSabina's working on.
And as I said in the episoderight here, you know, the the
practical wisdom for me is howdo you make all of this
actionable?
And how do we communicate inways that help people now?
And she is doing that work.
And for that, I have so muchrespect.
(33:33):
So, Sabina, thank you so muchfor being with me.
Thanks so much for the workthat you do.
And for those of you listening,take care.
Be well.
Thanks for checking in whereveryou are in the world.
Bye bye.
Okay, everybody, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today, I have an author andeducator, and well, just all
kinds of things.
And you'll learn about that ina moment.
Sabina Nawaz, and she's theauthor of You're the Boss,
Become the Manager You Want toBe and Others Need.
She is an elite executive coachwho advises C-level executives
(00:22):
and teams at Fortune 500corporations, government
agencies, nonprofits, andacademic institutions around the
world.
Sabina routinely gives speecheseach year and teaches on the
faculty at Northeastern andDrexel Universities.
During her 14-year tenure atMicrosoft, she went from
managing software developmentteams to leading the company's
(00:43):
executive development andsuccession planning efforts for
over 11,000 managers and nearlya thousand executives.
Advising Bill Gates and SteveBallmer directly, she has
written for and been featured inthe Harvard Business Review,
the Wall Street Journal, Forbes,Inc., Fast Company, NBC,
NASDAQ, and Market Watch.
(01:04):
Savina, thank you so much forspending some time with me
today.
I am so appreciative of yourwisdom that you're going to
share with our listeners.
I can't wait to jump into thebook.
But what I would love to do iswhat's not in the bio that
listeners should know about you.
Maybe we start there for just amoment.
Sabina Nawaz (01:23):
Well, thank you, Scott, for having me on the
show.
I am so excited about whatyou're trying to do right now
with the content and bringingthis practical wisdom to your
audience, which ties intosomething about me.
I think of myself as aminimalist contrarian.
You know, listeners, you'relistening to this podcast,
(01:46):
you're listening to dozens ofpodcasts.
What do you do with it?
Often nothing.
You just sort of think aboutit.
Maybe you discuss one of thoseat a dinner conversation.
But for me, the smaller theactions I can provide people,
the more likely they are to takeaction.
So that's the minimalist piece.
Everybody's busy, everybody'sgot pressure.
(02:08):
How can we create things in thesmallest possible chunk?
And the contrarian piece is toup-end conventional wisdom.
We are living in a time wheretruly the old formula is not
going to succeed.
Not only is it not going tosucceed, it's going to help you
tank really fast.
So it's time to reverse, almostliterally reverse, some of the
(02:32):
statements we have been sayingforever.
Scott Allen (02:35):
Yeah.
Well, I have so much, I mean, Ikeep hearing when I'm working
with organizations, uh, which isa few times a week.
And and Sabina, like you, it'sall over the place.
It might be oil and gas oneday, and then it might be
construction, and then it mightbe automotives, and then a
nonprofit, banking, healthcare.
But I keep hearing things liketime starved.
(02:57):
I keep hearing things that, youknow, even for someone to go
offline for a half day or a fullday, they, they're they're
anxious and agitated in the roombecause of everything else that
is happening around them.
And so I love kind of the, andwe could go to maybe the work of
BJ Fogg or or James Clear, justthe atomic, you know, you and I
(03:17):
should write the book LittleBaby Subatomic Habits, and we
will become billionaires.
Sabina Nawaz (03:23):
Absolutely.
In fact, uh, one of the threatsthat's through every chapter of
the book is what I callmicrohabits.
Yes.
Which is exactly it's the babysubatomic habits that are so
ridiculously small, as Fogg alsosays, that not doing it is
harder than doing it.
Scott Allen (03:43):
Yes.
Which which I love, which Iabsolutely love.
I mean, I literally I have akeynote coming up, and I did the
math today.
I'm gonna have 160 people in aroom.
This is a construction company,and and they want to talk about
culture and they want to talkabout actually making work fun,
which is kind of an interestinguh challenge, which I absolutely
(04:06):
love.
But I think if I remembercorrectly, I said, look, if 160
of you just get one positive outa week, that's 800 uh in those
five days.
And then if we do that for 52weeks over the year, there's
tens of thousands of, and we'veshifted the weather patterns.
We've shifted the system in areally substantial way, and
(04:29):
that's one, just each of you,one.
And uh so uh we are on the samewavelength for sure.
Sabina Nawaz (04:36):
I love this notion of shifting the weather
pattern and how does thatweather pattern shift with one
tiny acknowledgement every day.
Scott Allen (04:43):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (04:44):
So this thing of you can dream really big and you
should, because that purpose isgonna anchor you, especially
when times are tough.
But then act small.
Scott Allen (04:54):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (04:55):
Act small every day, you're gonna get to that
dream.
Scott Allen (04:58):
I love it.
Act small every day.
There's a wonderful video byKobe Bryant, and and he says,
you know, uh a little bit everyday and do that for a year and
do that for five years and dothat for 10 years, and you are
one of the best.
And so, okay, so I I'm I'mreally excited to jump in and
talk about the book a little bitbecause I I I would love
(05:21):
listeners to just have a tasteof kind of how you're thinking.
And so you're the boss.
Become the manager you want tobe, and others need.
What are a couple things youwant listeners to know?
And and we're not going toshare everything because we want
them to be intrigued and wewant them to go to Amazon or or
their seller of choice and pickit up.
(05:42):
But uh, what do listeners needto know about your work?
Sabina Nawaz (05:46):
Well, there's three things in the book that
they might start with.
One is that promotions areoften the riskiest times in your
career.
Riskiest times in your career.
Second is that remember I saidI'm a contrarian.
Uh so I don't agree that powercorrupts.
It's actually pressure thatcorrupts.
Scott Allen (06:07):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (06:08):
Under pressure, each of us has a choice point to
manage it or have it manage us.
And when pressure manages us,we raise our voice, we give
harsher criticism thannecessary, raising pressure for
everyone else.
We go from good boss to bossfrom hell in an instant.
Okay.
The third piece is that powerthen comes in and isolates us
(06:31):
and insulates us.
So we are the last ones to findout the impact we are having
when we act out under pressure.
Of course, the harm we might becreating, because nobody wants
to tell the person in a positionof power what they don't want
to hear.
Scott Allen (06:47):
Yes.
Yes.
Well, let's okay, let's go intoeach one of those areas a
little bit.
I'm I'm intrigued.
I'm very, very intrigued.
And I see the pressure, I seethe fear in giving others
feedback.
So I see a number of thesethings every day.
So let's talk a little bitabout each one of those, if you
would.
Sabina Nawaz (07:07):
Well, let's start with why are promotions
sometimes the riskiest times inyour career?
Yeah.
And this is, of course, let mefirst just acknowledge it's
wonderful.
You got promoted.
Congratulations.
It's great to celebrate that.
And you got promoted becauseyou were great at something.
That great thing is going tolook very different to the next
(07:31):
that are now craning up towardyou.
So let's say this is you justgot promoted to a manager.
And let me ask you this, Scott,if you're willing to play.
Scott Allen (07:41):
Sure.
Sabina Nawaz (07:42):
What would be a key strength of yours?
Scott Allen (07:45):
So a key strength of mine is um task orientation.
I can plow through tasks like achamp.
Sabina Nawaz (07:56):
Yeah.
Fabulous.
So task orientation.
Now let's say that you getpromoted to manager or manager
of managers.
You get more senior.
Scott Allen (08:07):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (08:07):
How might that task orientation?
It's possible that that taskorientation is seen as wow, my
manager responds to my messages,makes decisions, helps me get
things done.
How else might it be viewedfrom people who are who are
across what I call the power gapfrom you?
Scott Allen (08:25):
Well, okay, okay.
I mean, I I've had thisfeedback.
And so early in my career, itwas that I struggled to slow
down and be truly present whenuh you know an individual walked
into my office, or I struggledto prioritize the people part of
the work versus the task partof the work.
(08:47):
I get energy from knockingthings off the to-do list, but
slowing down to have aconversation or a coaching
dialogue, um, that was at times,especially when I was younger,
an annoyance.
And I didn't want to have to dothat.
So that strength became aweakness for sure.
Sabina Nawaz (09:04):
Yeah.
So, well, I I don't know thatthe strength became a weakness.
Scott Allen (09:08):
Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (09:09):
I I am not saying ditch that strength.
Sure.
Keep that strength, append anand.
Scott Allen (09:16):
Yes.
Yep.
Sabina Nawaz (09:17):
That and when you get promoted, more people are
dependent on you.
There's more of a connectionthat needs to be made because
guess what?
You're not just working alonein your office and somebody
sliding pizza under the door foryou every night.
So you've got to bring othersalong and you've got to see how
that strength is landing on themand at the end.
(09:38):
So I'm sure you've done that,Scott, with the feedback you've
gotten from your early years.
But there are so manystrengths, and every single one
of them has a counterpart.
So detail orientation, ofcourse, can become
micromanaging.
Guess what?
Strategic can lookmanipulative.
I had a coaching client who'svery, very strategic, got
promoted because she'sstrategic, and then suddenly she
(10:02):
starts to get feedback thatshe's manipulative and
political.
She's like, Wait, wait, what?
What's that about?
So when I dug into thatfeedback by interviewing people
who work for her, what I learnedis her behavior of sometimes
not speaking early in a meeting,waiting till the halfway point
to see what people wereconcerned about, where they
(10:25):
were.
She truly was deeply trying tounderstand that and add value in
a relevant fashion.
But to them, it looked like sheis sizing up the room.
She does, she's going to be uhnoticing what the senior most
person is saying, which way thewind is blowing, we don't know
where she stands, all of thesethings.
(10:45):
And the fix was relativelysimple once she realized that.
She continues being strategicand she uses a tool in the book
I call mapping, where sheexplains, I tend to not speak in
the first 15 minutes of ameeting because this is what I'm
doing.
If you want my opinion in thosefirst 15 minutes, ask me.
I will share it.
Scott Allen (11:06):
Yes.
Well, and and that's sowonderful because, you know,
again, also in some 360s alongthe way, I had gotten feedback.
Let's see, um, can be overlyassertive in his opinion and
intimidates others tocontribute.
And I thought I was justparticipating, but I didn't
understand some of the powerdifferential that was going on
(11:28):
or that people experienced orperceived.
So then I learned to say,similar to what you just said,
hey, I don't care if it's myidea or your idea or a third
idea.
Let's just find the best idea,never hesitate to push back.
If you think that I'm goingdown the wrong road or to be a
contrarian in the meeting,please do that.
(11:48):
And then of course I have toactually follow through with
modeling that I value that.
And I I would say, look, wemight not always, or I might end
up making a decision youdisagree with, but I always want
to hear what you have to say.
And then that kind of managedthat impression a little bit.
Um, I'm sure it didn'teliminate it, but I love how
you're framing that for sure.
Sabina Nawaz (12:08):
Well, Scott, so I want to build on what you're
saying.
This is so good, so good,because it's great that you are
letting people know that.
And guess what?
People will still not do it,especially the more senior you
are.
They'll just not, because everyperson has learned to say that,
they don't know the differencebetween who really means it and
who doesn't.
So modeling it is great.
Here's another thing to reallymake sure it happens is don't be
(12:32):
the first person to speak withyour idea.
Obviously, you're convening themeeting, you're the first
person to speak to frame themeeting.
But then when it comes toideation, be at least the third.
So now people and and make thatknown.
So they again don't thinkyou're playing some weird game
on them.
But now they know, now thoseideas can come unvarnished.
(12:57):
They don't have to worry abouthow much do I disagree with the
boss.
Scott Allen (13:01):
Yep.
Well, it's so interesting.
And this is a little teeny bitoff topic, but you know, another
thing that I've been interestedin lately is some of the uh we
we could call it PTSD, we couldcall it trauma, we could call it
just negative experiences thatpeople have had with other
bosses.
So, to your point of what youjust said, even if you are the
(13:25):
most well-intended, transparent,trying to be on the up and up,
people bring in a lot of thingsgoing on.
It maybe they had a previoussupervisor that said, like you
said, they knew to say it, butthey didn't actually follow up
on it, or their career wasstalled because they spoke up in
a meeting.
And so it's so interesting tome, kind of that and I the word
(13:49):
trauma might be a little bit toointense, but some of that that
people bring into even whenyou're trying to be super
transparent on the up and up, uhpeople still, like you just
said, are gonna struggle attimes to actually act on what
you are suggesting.
Sabina Nawaz (14:07):
Absolutely.
And that's where power comesinto the equation.
Our relationship to authorityis is fraught, it's complex, it
starts from birth.
All of that stuff is gonna comein, even if you're Mother
Teresa.
People are going to feelintimidated just by your
positional power alone.
So power creates this gap.
And my book has four commonpower gaps.
(14:29):
And what to do to narrow that?
How do you reduce that?
One of those is to shut up, isto exercise what I call your
shut up muscle by being thethird to speak, by taking notes
and not just verbal vomitingeverything, by noticing your
interruption cues.
How do you build that muscle?
Scott Allen (14:47):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Well, um, okay.
So I I love this framing thepressure versus power.
So let's talk a little bitabout that.
Pressure.
Sabina Nawaz (15:00):
Yeah.
Can I ask you a question again?
Scott Allen (15:03):
Yeah, please.
Sabina Nawaz (15:04):
Well, what when you're at your best under
pressure, I imagine you get alot done because you have that
task orientation, Scott.
Is that right?
Scott Allen (15:13):
Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (15:13):
And things just become really focused, you
compartmentalize, and you canhome in on it.
When you're yes, yes, oh, forsure.
Scott Allen (15:21):
I I know what music to put on, where to go.
I know exactly kind of whatsetting to, and then I just I
just put my head down and Iplow.
Sabina Nawaz (15:30):
Oh, look at that, folks.
You should you should just havean episode just from Scott on
how to deal with pressure atyour best because you've got
there's an end coming, isn'tthere?
Yes, and you're human.
So I imagine there are timesyou're not at your best when
under pressure.
Yes.
If you're willing to tell onyourself, what is it that you do
that you're not necessarilyproud of when you're not at your
(15:53):
best under pressure?
Scott Allen (15:54):
Well, I I have a it's it's called the personal
leadership profile.
And so it's a a one-pagedocument that just kind of
outlines me as a you know, whatyou're gonna get when you're
working with me.
And I say in it, at times underpressure, under stress, I can
get a little bit curt.
I can kind of go within and andgo right into the computer and
(16:17):
attack whatever I need toattack.
unknown (16:19):
Yeah.
Scott Allen (16:19):
And I can become accessible inaccessible.
And and again, maybe not evenall that present.
We might have a conversation,but I'll I'll say if it seems
like I'm not present, challengeme on that because my mind might
be elsewhere.
So my mind will wander and I'llhave a whole conversation and
(16:39):
not hear what we just discussed.
Sabina Nawaz (16:42):
Yeah, yeah.
And here, so that's what I meanby pressure corrupting is we we
start to act in ways when ourtime is squeezed, it squeezes
out our humanity.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (16:53):
And we start to act in ways our we're not in our
thinking brain, we are in athreat state.
So we're in fight, flight,fright, fawn mode.
And so we raise our voice, wego curt.
I was just doing someinterviewing to get feedback on
a CEO coach, and they said, Oh,he's just really pouty, and
(17:16):
really uh, I said, What doesthat mean?
It's like, well, when he getsbad news and he's under so much
pressure right now, he just goesinto his office and pouts.
And I'm like, Well, how do youknow he pouts?
Well, his responses become verycurt, just yes, no.
You see him in the hallways,he's not even making eye contact
anymore.
He's like those waiters who areconstantly not making eye
(17:39):
contact when you're trying to uhget extra catch up.
So so it and what's happeningto these people, they're worried
because power is like a brokenvolume knob, it's a distortion.
Everything that's coming up, aswe've talked about, is milder
than what the employeeexperiences.
(18:00):
So when they say yes, boss,everything's fine, they mean
I've started a secret group chatabout your management style.
Now, similarly, everythingthat's coming down is amplified
and it's not just amplified,it's personal, it's directed at
me.
So a casual, hey, can we meeton Monday means oh my gosh, I
better pack my boxes thisweekend.
Scott Allen (18:22):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (18:23):
Right.
So when you're acting underpressure in less than salubrious
ways, just slightly curt, noteven, you don't even have to be
very curt, you don't even haveto curse and swear, which some
people do, but just slightlycurt, not having that beautiful
smile that I have the benefit ofseeing right now on screen,
Scott, then the other people arethinking I'm fired.
(18:47):
And when employees feel thatway, research shows that they
even deliberately sabotage theirown work to tank business
results just to get back at thebus.
Scott Allen (19:01):
Wow.
Sabina Nawaz (19:01):
So it's not healthy for you, it's not
healthy for them, and it is nothealthy for the work.
Scott Allen (19:06):
Yeah, but you used a word there.
I I think it was the this wasthe word distortion.
Is that is that the word thatyou used?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah.
Scott Allen (19:13):
It's such a beautiful word because I think,
yes, even the simplest,straightforward message can be
distorted in the mind of thereceiver.
Or at least it goes to thewhole world of possibilities of
what it could mean, quoteunquote.
And as humans, we don'tnecessarily go to all of the
optimistic meanings uh first.
(19:34):
We catastrophize.
Sabina Nawaz (19:37):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yes.
And it goes back to that traumayou were calling, our
relationship with authority,whatever, you know, it's wired.
We're wired to see the threatfirst, the negative first.
Scott Allen (19:49):
Yeah.
So the the third one where thethe individual can become a
little bit isolated.
And again, speaking ofdistortions, Bomer or Gates
might be walking around with avery distorted perspective of or
or jobs or whatever.
I mean, any C-level executivecan be walking around with a
(20:11):
distorted perspective on a lot.
Sabina Nawaz (20:14):
You bet.
And it can be little things, itcan be big things.
It can be little things like,oh, I'm convinced that purple
looks very flattering on mebecause everybody's told me what
a beautiful color that is onme.
And then, you know, just askyour 13-year-old and they'll
tell you, mom, seriously, youneed a fashion moment here.
(20:35):
So, you know, so thisdistortion happens.
It happens with just aboutevery client I coach.
Well, let's make that clear.
Every client I coach.
The minute I go get feedback inthis process called a 360 that
you and I are familiar with,where I'm interviewing about a
dozen people that work with theperson, and I bring that
(20:57):
feedback to my client.
There is not a single personwho's not surprised or shocked
by the feedback, not by thebigger categories, but by what
people are actually saying.
It hits them.
And they go because look, themajority of people, despite what
we might read in the press, arenot waking up in the morning
(21:20):
saying, Let me make lifemiserable for my people.
Scott Allen (21:23):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (21:25):
So they're waking up wanting to do a good job,
wanting to move the workforward.
And no employee is saying, Oh,I want to go to work and and
play revenge video games againstmy boss every day.
They want to be productive andcontribute as well.
When this distortion happens,it it shuts down the connection,
(21:49):
the relationship, and theproductivity.
Scott Allen (21:54):
Shuts down.
Talk about that.
Go a little bit deeper there.
It shuts down.
I mean, that's a powerfulphrase.
Sabina Nawaz (22:01):
Well, I have employees for the one of the
interviews I just did where theyare throwing up.
They're actually throwing upbefore going and talking to the
boss.
Scott Allen (22:14):
Wow.
Sabina Nawaz (22:15):
So their brain is shut down and their body has
shut down.
Well, often our bodies aregateways to our brain.
Their body is giving thempowerful cues that there's so
much danger there that, youknow, let's hold you back, let's
have you throw up.
You know, so that's that's oneway of shutting down.
You know, I'm also thinking ofthis other person I coached, and
(22:39):
it shuts down work.
So it shuts you downphysically, it shuts you down
mentally and emotionally.
It's also shuts down workbecause guess what those
employees are doing?
They're spending all their timetalking about you instead of
doing the work.
Now, there is one.
Remember, I said I'm aminimalist.
So there is one really simpletool that you can use, not to
(23:04):
solve all of this, but to makeinroads.
And that is a numbering scheme.
Scott Allen (23:11):
Okay.
Sabina Nawaz (23:12):
With this distortion, everything the boss
says comes across as superimportant, high priority, high
volume because of theamplification.
What if you used a numberingscheme?
So if you said on a scale ofone to 10, this is a seven.
On a scale of one to 10, thisis a 19.
(23:32):
Because here's the other thing.
If everything comes across atthe same volume, a 10 for the
employee, you might end upgetting frustrated because the
one that's truly a 19 is notgetting done with a sense of
urgency.
Well, maybe because everythingseems the same to them.
Scott Allen (23:51):
Yes.
Sabina Nawaz (23:52):
So so use a number to communicate where it
is in terms of priority, interms of your excitement, or in
terms of your concern.
And by the way, if something isa two or a three, maybe you
need to go back and exercisethat shut-up muscle and not
randomize people.
Scott Allen (24:12):
Well, and I mean, at least in my own career, it's
it's fascinating to watch itplay out where a leader that
doesn't know that they're anextroverted thinker, for
instance, right?
You know, you have an E N onthe Myers-Briggs type indicator,
someone who's just anextroverted thinker and they're
people walk out of meetings andthey say, Well, he just said we
need to do this.
(24:32):
And, you know, I would be inconversations.
I think he was just thinkingout loud, we should double check
if that's really what he wantsto do.
But they were marching down theroad.
And I mean, again, that thatkind of distortion, uh if you're
not known as someone who's opento feedback, or if you are
again under that pressure and alittle bit curt, and think of
(24:56):
the rework that's happening inorganization and the mental
energy and the physical energy,the wasted energy at times.
It's fascinating.
It really is.
Sabina Nawaz (25:05):
It is, it is.
And uh, given that we spend themajority of our lives at work,
why would you do that?
Scott Allen (25:14):
Well, okay.
One question I have as we beginto kind of think about winding
down our time.
I loved, uh, I don't know ifyou're familiar with Jocko
Willink.
Do you know Jocko?
So he wrote a book.
He's a Navy SEAL, and he wrotea book called Um Extreme
Ownership.
It was really, reallyinteresting because he he wrote
(25:35):
this book and he had a co-authorand they they put it out into
the world, and that kind of thatbook was was taken to an
extreme in some contexts.
Once it interfaced with humanbeings, you know, you had a a
shop floor manager that just youknow demanded extreme ownership
(25:56):
in in their in their shop.
So it was really beautifulbecause in their second book,
they they said, look, this canbe taken too far as well.
I mean, they learned once ithad kind of interfaced with
human beings and interfaced withthe public.
And I really, really had greatrespect for them that the fact
that they came back and said,look, we're learning as well,
(26:18):
and this is something we'velearned about the work.
So what are some reflectionsyou have on kind of watching the
book interface with the public?
Are there new insights or arethere something, is there
something that's intrigued youas a phenomenon that's come back
that has caught your attention?
Sabina Nawaz (26:37):
A couple of things.
Being an E N in Myers Briggsmyself, I will think out loud.
One thing that surprised me wasthree people so far have come
to me and said that they haveanonymously gifted my book to
their boss.
Scott Allen (26:54):
Interesting.
Sabina Nawaz (26:55):
And I thought, well, great, they found value in
it and they think this willhelp their boss.
Two, this is the power gap inaction where they're not able to
give that transparently totheir boss in the spirit of
collaboration and hey, boss,this is a great book and a
resource.
There's a fear there, so it hasto be anonymous.
(27:16):
And three, I have hope thatafter the boss reads that book,
they it will break that down, itwill break that barrier down
further.
So that was one thing thatsurprised me.
Another one is a seniorexecutive i coach said, Can you
just change the jacket cover ofyour book and title?
(27:37):
And I said, What do you mean?
You don't like red, you don'tlike the word boss?
What's what's up with this?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah.
Sabina Nawaz (27:42):
And he said, No, no, no.
My partner and I are using thisbook with our children.
We are talking about thechapters after dinner, and we
are creating microhabits.
We have talked about thecommunication fault lines, we've
talked about the singularstory, multiple meanings.
So all you have to do is nowsay you're the parent as the
(28:06):
title of the book.
Yes.
Change the cover, change thetitle, and this is just as
applicable at home as it is atwork.
Love it.
So that those are things thatthat um I mean, I talk at the
end of the book that you can usethis for a number of things,
but it was really powerful tosee that from somebody.
I also find, like you, Scott,that people are really
(28:28):
resonating with this notion thatpressure has the power to
corrupt us.
Scott Allen (28:32):
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
And what that means.
I think that is more accuratethan the power.
You know, the what's the what'sthe famous quote?
You know, power corrupts andabsolute, power corrupts
absolutely.
I agree with you.
I think if someone is ascendedto a role of uh authority, maybe
not as likely in a family-ownedbusiness or in a privately held
(28:54):
company sometimes, but ifsomeone's ascended to a role of
authority, a position ofauthority, in a let's let's just
say in a normal publicly tradedorganization, I do believe it's
the pressure.
I I don't think it's the powerthat shifts.
I think for some, of course,that's the case, but the immense
pressure that these highachievers likely, right, are are
(29:16):
feeling and experiencing andthe distortions they experience
back to your numbering system,right?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Scott Allen (29:23):
I I love that distinction that you've you've
landed upon here because I Ithink that is the core.
I think that's at the core.
Sabina Nawaz (29:31):
It is.
And I'm really seeing that aspeople read the book, they're
really gloming onto that pieceand then going, okay, so now you
mean I don't have to go on aretreat for three weeks and I
don't have to have a personalitytransplant.
I can apply this tool.
I love multiple meanings, or Ilove whatever the you know, name
(29:51):
your tool.
There's 16 of them in the bookthat they that they use to then
go, okay, all is not lost.
Yes, I I have something tograb.
Me with this.
Scott Allen (30:02):
Well, and I love the fact that you have tools in
the book, 16 of them, so thatnot only are you identifying
something as a concept, butthere's some action I can take
to uh, you know, practice or tominimize or to experiment with
to see if that's something thatyou know what I mean?
(30:22):
I mean, I just love that.
Sabina Nawaz (30:24):
Well, I know exactly what you mean, Scott,
because I'm an engineer bytraining.
And so once an engineer, you'reit's really hard to get that
out of me.
And it's it's got to be justlike your task focused, I'm
practical application focused.
It's it's got to be applicable.
If you had a good time readingthe book, yeah, you can also
watch Netflix and have a goodtime.
So, what are you gonna do withit?
(30:46):
Is the real question here.
Scott Allen (30:48):
I want to watch this on Netflix.
I I think we could create awhole new.
We will write baby subatomichabits and we will make a
Netflix special out of it.
Deal.
Sabina Nawaz (30:59):
Deal.
We can live coach people ontheir baby subatomic habits,
God.
Scott Allen (31:04):
They're subatomic, little tiny baby habits.
Oh well, okay, as we wind downour time today, I always ask
guests the last question, whichis you know, uh, speaking of
Netflix, what have you beenstreaming or what have you been
listening to?
What has caught your attentionin recent times?
It may have something to dowith what we've just discussed
(31:25):
and leadership and management,but it might have nothing to do
with what we've just discussed.
So uh, what's caught yourattention in recent times that
listeners might be interestedin?
Sabina Nawaz (31:34):
I read four or five books at the same time.
So I get, you know, am I in themood for the heavier read here
or the lighter read there?
Uh and the I believe it'scalled Creative Acts for Curious
People.
It comes out of Stanford DesignSchool.
Scott Allen (31:51):
Oh, wow.
Sabina Nawaz (31:52):
And it's a number of activities that people can
do to free up some of theircreativity and to approach
things from very differentangles like a great designer
would.
That has really stimulated mycreative juices in turn.
So that's one of the books I'mreading.
(32:13):
And the other one that I justfinished this morning, it's
called The Power of Pressure,which of course you can see from
its title why I would pick itup.
It's by Dane Jensen.
And it's a fantastic read.
Again, some very practical waysto understand pressure and then
how to address it.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Okay.
Sabina Nawaz (32:33):
And then my husband and I are binge watching
The Resident on Netflix, whichis a standard hospital drama.
Scott Allen (32:41):
Okay.
Okay.
What's the one that just wonall of the Golden Globes?
I'm thinking a pit.
Was that the I think?
Sabina Nawaz (32:47):
Yes, I that's next on the list.
In fact, my nephew, who is adoctor, said, watch the pit.
That's the best one.
Scott Allen (32:55):
So awesome.
Well, Sabina, thank you somuch.
I really, really appreciateyour time today.
We'll have anotherconversation, I hope.
Sabina Nawaz (33:04):
I hope so too.
Be careful what you ask for.
Scott Allen (33:07):
Okay, take care.
Be well.
Sabina Nawaz (33:09):
Thank you.
Scott Allen (33:11):
Okay.
Incredible respect for all thatSabina's working on.
And as I said in the episoderight here, you know, the the
practical wisdom for me is howdo you make all of this
actionable?
And how do we communicate inways that help people now?
And she is doing that work.
And for that, I have so muchrespect.
(33:33):
So, Sabina, thank you so muchfor being with me.
Thanks so much for the workthat you do.
And for those of you listening,take care.
Be well.
Thanks for checking in whereveryou are in the world.
Bye bye.
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