August 15, 2023 • 47 mins
Preaching is most effective at leading congregational change when aligned with and supporting other discipleship environments in the church. The annual calendar provides natural seasons of momentum and choosing one core emphasis or initiative to "disproportionately" promote throughout the fall allows for maximum focus and impact without overwhelming people.
Imagine showing up every Sunday to a congregation energized, excited, and ready to get involved. Isn't it awesome when there is a buzz across campus and people are in the mood for a fresh start or there's a desire to establish new rhythms?
These are sweet times of ministry.
What if you could tap into this type of momentum without feeling like YOU have to be the one to create it?
You can!
In this episode of Preaching Through Podcast we help you consider how to make this fall your best ministry launch ever — but also how you can take the same principles and apply them to other launch seasons.
Storytelling, communication, discipleship, growth, and personal growth for the pastor... it's all in this week's episode, Preaching Through A Fall Launch.
Discover all of our free resources: https://faithfruit.us/podcast-links
Additional questions about this topic? Email us at info@faithfulandfruitful.com.
Preaching Through is powered by Faithful & Fruitful, leadership resources for pastors so they can have a faithful and fruitful ministry over the long-haul.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Alright man, what is the most significant tool for
leading a local church?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Man, every time you say most significant, it's hard
to answer, but what comes tomind is preaching.
I don't think preaching is themost important thing in the
church.
It's not the most important oronly ministry of the church, but
I think it's the most usefuland significant tool for leading
a church.
It's really hard to lead achurch without the pulpit,
without the consistent, regularvoice of preaching God's Word
(00:26):
and hearing God's voice.
It's a tough thing to do.
Some people are extraordinarilygifted and they can pull it off
, but it's a key tool and it'swhy this season is worth doing.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Well, of course, the lead pastor would say that the
preaching is the mostsignificant tool.
But I think there's more to itthan that, and that's what we'll
get into Ready.
Yeah, hey there.
Welcome back to the preachingthrough podcast.
This is season two.
My name is Dave Shrine and I amalongside my co-host, luke
Simmons.
What's up, man?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hey, dave, I'm glad to be doing this again.
Yeah, man, season two it's.
I don't know how many podcastsmake it to a season two, but
here we are, here we are, mostpodcasts don't actually make it
past eight episodes, so there'sa little marketing information
for you.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So we're like we'll just pat ourselves on the back.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
No, we won't do that.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Let's see if we can get eight episodes in this
season too.
No, I've been looking forward togetting back and chatting.
I love ministry.
I like talking ministry withyou.
My background is in ministry,your background is in ministry,
so it's just an appropriateconversation to have.
So, yeah, yeah, this is thepreaching through podcast.
If this is the first timeyou're ever listening, welcome.
This is the conversation thattakes place Takes place when
(01:38):
pastors get together toencourage one another to grow
together, to improve upon theirskills and their leadership and
their preaching.
Also that they can lead in 21stcentury America, pointing
people to Jesus.
What does it look like topreach in 21st century America?
That's the conversation that wehave, and so we're excited to
(01:59):
have you along for thatconversation.
As already mentioned, this isseason two, so we've got 10
episodes and a bonus episodethat you can actually go back
and listen to at any point intime.
Last season was all aboutpreaching through different
nuances, different texts,different types of passages or
ways to approach even sermonseries.
This season, it's a little bitmore nuanced towards, you know,
(02:21):
seasons of ministry, a littlebit more nuanced towards
different dynamics that youencounter, and one of the
conversations that we're goingto have is preaching through the
camera, like live streaming,and talking about how do you
connect with your congregationthrough live streaming, and so
that's not today's conversation.
Today's conversation isactually preaching through a
(02:42):
fall launch and, as we werepreparing our outline, it's
really less about the preachingin some respects and it's more
about everything else that'shappening.
That fall launch and you hadkind of framed it up that way
what, what?
When you think fall launch,what do you think?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah Well, for a lot of churches, the fall really is
the kickoff to their ministryseason, right?
The reality is we just follow aschool year kind of flow, and
so the fall really feels likethe beginning of the year.
It's always a weird thing,especially for those churches
like ours where the budgetbegins in January but the
ministry year really begins inAugust or September.
For us here in Arizona, itactually is like the end of July
(03:19):
is back to school.
But yeah, that's what we thinkof fall launch, and I think the
principles we're going to talkabout here really will relate to
the launch of any particularseason.
So someone might be listening tothis and falls, you know, a
long time away, but you go okay,well, a new year launch or a
summer launch or any time.
There's going to be a kind oflaunch moment.
I think what we're going totalk about will help.
(03:40):
But yeah, the fall really is akey time.
A lot of people come back, alot of new people get invited,
there's a chance to launchministry and have a renewed
focus, and it's just a time thatyou don't want to waste.
You've got to make the most ofit.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
One of the things that really influences the fall
launch is what are you comingout of in summer?
So we'll talk a little bitabout that.
Another thing is like how muchof the preaching influences
what's going on throughout therest of the church, or how much
does the rest of the churchinfluence the preaching, even to
the point of gosh?
(04:13):
Like are we going to do asermon series about this thing
or are we just going to kind ofdrip this thing throughout the
sermon series?
So we'll talk a little bitabout that.
But by and large it's just anopportunity to be a leader in
that entire like, to offer someleadership and some guidance.
I know that you had said in thepast like the big guy being
around was something that youvery early learned that you
(04:36):
wanted to have, like the leadpastor, just how important that
was.
Why don't you share a littlebit about that?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, when I was starting in vocational ministry,
I was leading small groups andmen's ministry.
It was at a pretty large churchbut we had a senior pastor who
I mean in so many ways he wasjust the best guy ever.
But one irritating thing was hewould leave for all of August
and in our environment Augustwas prime time back to school
(05:04):
and, man, it was just sofrustrating as a staff guy
because you'd be launching a newinitiative or creating a new
emphasis on small groups orwhatever.
The case would be that thatstuff that's happening
throughout the week that thechurch calendar is filled with
that really is important fordisciple making, and yet he was
gone and he was the person thatpeople were looking to Like.
If he, if he said, hey, I readthis book, people would go buy
(05:26):
that book.
If he said, hey, you got to goget involved with this or that,
people would listen.
Now you can debate about shouldpeople listen that much to a
lead pastor?
Should he have that muchinfluence?
I don't know, but he did.
And for him to be gone duringthat key season, I was just so
frustrating, and so it actuallyshaped part of how I think about
my church calendar and vacationcalendar is I try to get my
(05:50):
vacation out of the way earlieron in the summer so that I can
be around in the weeks leadingup to and during that fall on.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Well, I think that comes back to the question that
we opened up with was what isthe most significant tool for
leading the local church?
And your answer was, you know,the sermon, the pulpit, that
that preaching moment is, youknow, the most significant, or
one of the most significant itcertainly in our context here it
is.
And to have that presence goneto not be in sync and we'll talk
(06:20):
about that in this episode aswell to not be in sync, that
does create a level of how arewe going to move this thing
forward without that primarytool that we're really counting
on.
So all of that is what you arein store for in this episode.
Like I said, if this is thefirst time you're ever listening
, we are so grateful to have youhere.
We know that you could be doinga lot of other things with your
(06:42):
time.
There's a lot of differentpodcasts out there that you
could be listening to, and wesure do hope that we can provide
some encouragement and someinsight and maybe even inspire
you to approach your leadershipand your preaching and this
responsibility that you haveweek in and week out with a new
perspective and hopefully evenreplace some of the joy in the
leadership of preaching andmaybe take some burdens off your
(07:05):
back or at least be a part ofthe conversation and, you know,
start that process of what doesit look like for you to elevate
in this area.
So it's going to be a funseason.
I'm anxious to get going onthis first episode and yeah,
let's talk about it Preachingyour first 200 sermons are going
to be terrible.
This is something the late TimKeller once said, meaning that
(07:26):
no matter how hard you study,how many hours you put in or how
much you work on your preaching, there's this glass ceiling
that can only be broken withmore reps.
So getting reps becomes yourmain way of growing as a
preacher.
But what happens when yousurpass 200 sermons?
What are you supposed to workon?
Where should you try and grow?
Or what muscles are you goingto need to build to have a
(07:47):
faithful and fruitful preachingministry over the long haul?
Well, the preaching lab is acurriculum developed by our
co-host, luke Simmons, thatfills this gap and takes
preachers beyond what they'velearned in seminary or Bible
college.
This live experience providespreachers with meaningful
feedback, insight andinstructions so that they can
improve their preaching for afaithful and fruitful preaching
(08:09):
ministry.
During this 12-week preachingcohort preachers learn of minor
adjustments to their sermonhabits that have a major impact
on the preaching moment Tweaksthat nobody in your congregation
has the ability or theconfidence to give you.
It's a deep inspection of yourroutine habit, study and
preaching, all so that you canbecome a better steward of the
(08:29):
gift God has given you everysingle week an audience.
It's your opportunity to returnthe favor back to your
congregation and preach a sermonthat is faithful and fruitful.
Visit faithfulandfruitfulcomslash lab to learn more about
the preaching lab live cohort,as well as the preaching lab
on-demand video curriculum.
(08:49):
Now back to the podcast.
Alright, I'm going to go backto it again because I think it
requires a little bit ofexplanation.
You may have some non-leadpastors, non-teaching pastors,
listening, thinking hey, what Ido for the church is super
important and it's not about me,but you know there's a lot of
(09:13):
people counting on this, andthen to say that the most
significant tool leading thelocal church is the preaching.
Let's unpack that a little bit.
Where does that come from?
How did you come to thatconclusion, and is it an
exclusionary thing?
It's like everything has to bepointing towards this.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, good question.
And where it comes from is Icame up with these 10 ABCs of
preaching, which stands forassumptions, beliefs,
convictions, and actually Ithink we're going to talk about
that in a coming episode.
I think every preacher shouldat least have thought through
what are their assumptions, whatare their beliefs, what are
their convictions aboutpreaching, how it works, what
its role is in the local church.
(09:49):
So one of them to me is thatpreaching is the most
significant leadership tool forleading the local church.
Now, that wording is importantand specific.
I'm not saying preaching is themost important part of a local
church.
I'm not saying the preacher isthe most important part of a
local church.
I'm not saying preaching is themost significant ministry in
(10:11):
the local church.
It's important to say preachingis the most significant tool
for leading the local church,necessarily for caring for the
church, not necessarily formotivating.
I mean, it's really like it'sthat leading is the issue right,
there's lots of different waysto lead and there's lots of
(10:31):
different things that relate toleading, and leadership isn't
the most important part of thechurch either.
But if you're thinking about,okay, I'm a lead pastor and I've
got all these different tools,I can communicate and I can
spend time with people and I canwrite emails and I can have a
meeting and I can create aphysical environment.
(10:52):
I mean, there's just all kindsof things that you go okay, I
could use this tool, I could usethis tool, I could use this
tool, and hopefully we're usinga lot of those tools.
What I'm saying is as a leaderright, especially, really, this
is true if you're in a smallerchurch or a church plant, or
you're in a more establishedchurch and a big staff.
Either way, you're looking atall your tools going.
Okay, we're here right now.
(11:14):
We're trying to get there.
How do we get people from hereto there?
One of the tools that is justthe most effective and gets you
there fastest is preaching.
Right, it's what you have theopportunity to say in your
sermons, and so that's why I saythat it's not to denigrate
(11:34):
small groups.
It's not to look down uponcounseling.
It's not to say that the peoplewho are doing care ministry and
compassion ministry are doingless significant ministry than
the preaching.
It is to say, the thing thatgets you from here to there is
typically not all those otherthings as much as it is the
preaching.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Like you said, we will have an episode on the ABCs
.
I actually think it might bethe very next episode here, but
one of the things in one of thevideos that exists in the
preaching lab curriculum thatyou've put together is you say
that the ABCs exist in part.
Like one of the benefits ofthem, I guess you could say is
that if somebody comes up to youand critiques your preaching or
(12:14):
critiques your leadership orwhatever it is, if it's not part
of your core values, it's notpart of your ABCs.
It's kind of like, okay, well,I can kind of disregard that or
just take it for what it's worth.
Whereas if somebody comes up toyou and it says, hey, it feels
like you're phoning in thesermon on Sunday, well, one of
my core beliefs here is thatpreaching is an essential tool
(12:39):
for leading a congregation andit provides a level of
conviction like, well, I need tokey into that, and so it's easy
, I think, for us to look at ourindividual roles and jobs and
say this is an essential part.
The flip side of that is youhave to treat it like it's an
essential part, you have to carefor it, you have to nurture it,
you have to invest in it.
You have to continue to grow it.
What are some ways that you canmaintain kind of a level of
(13:03):
just accountability to make surethat you're treating it that
way, that you're stewarding itwell?
I mean, I'm not just phoning itin.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, I mean phoning it in isn't really a thing I
struggle with.
I'm just not really wired tophone it in very much.
I'm probably wired the otherway.
The danger for me is more toactually be tempted to think
preaching is the most importantpart of the church and to forget
.
No, this is my particular gift,I'm one particular part of the
(13:32):
body and I'm going to use thisgift to advance our overall
mission.
That is a temptation.
I mean like even the reasonpeople would hear preaching is
the most significant tool forleading a local church and have
a flinch like ah, that sounds alittle megalomaniac, is because
they've experienced pastors whotreat it that way.
They treat it like preaching isthe most important thing in the
(13:53):
local church, not just the mostimportant leadership tool.
And so what ends up happening?
No one would ever say it outloud, but what ends up happening
is everything is reallydesigned in the church to try to
get the maximum number ofpeople to be there listening to
the preacher on.
Sunday.
Well, that's just not ourmission.
That's not at least at ourchurch.
That's not our mission.
I don't think that should bethe mission.
(14:14):
I think getting people tochurch on Sunday is a great
thing.
I think what we do on Sundayreally matters or I wouldn't
spend so much time doing itRight?
But it is to say that that'snot the goal.
The goal is that people wouldbecome like Christ, that they
would grow in their love, thatthey'd have an understanding of
God's love for them, that theywould love their friends and
their family and their neighborsand their coworkers, and that
they would be the hands and feetof Jesus, and so that's the
(14:37):
mission.
Now I want to leverage my giftsand my strengths as a preacher
to try to advance that mission.
But that also means that itjust can't be.
I mean, the people who aregrowing the most in those ways
are not the people who only showup on Sunday.
Right, it's the people who showup on Sunday and they're
serving somewhere and they'reinvolved in some kind of
(14:57):
community and they're doingthings in their work to try to
integrate their faith in theirwork.
And maybe they're involved inthe community by coaching a team
or by helping out in anonprofit or whatever the case
might be, but those are thepeople.
So it's really to say, okay,how does the preaching moment do
the teaching and encouragingand building up, but also how
(15:19):
does it facilitate people'sparticipation in these other
disciple making environments?
And when I think of a falllaunch, that's what I'm thinking
.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
I'm thinking, okay, this is not just, it's not like
just the launch of a sermonseries.
Well, we're always doing sermonseries.
It's not the launch of a newSunday morning.
We've been doing Sunday morning.
It's the launch of all theseother ministries that are going.
We're saying, hey, these needlife, these matter, these are
part of your overall experience,because we want you to grow as
a healthy disciple.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Just as a reminder for those who have already
listened and this is your firsttime my background I spent a lot
of time in church, musiciancommunications, and today I run
a marketing company, a marketingagency, and so one of the
things that I love about theschool calendar, the annual
calendar, is it provides thesenatural moments, these natural
(16:07):
points of momentum.
Just every year at this time,no matter who's in your
organization, who's in yourchurch, there's going to be some
momentum around this, and as amarketer, I love coming and like
really using that as a buttressfor whatever campaign that I
want to run.
The most obvious is BlackFriday.
Right, that happens every yearand all the retailers are on it,
(16:30):
and it's to a point now whereAmazon even creates its own
Black Friday in July andeverybody just jumps on around
it.
And so there's these, whetherthey are just natural ebb and
flow or whether they've beenmanufactured.
There is just a level ofmomentum.
And so what I hear you say yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I mean you have like, everyone's going to go get
their hair cut Right and you'regoing to take the kids they did
last week.
You're going to take the kidsto go get some back to school
clothes and like everythingabout it feels like a fresh
start, so like leverage it Likeyou don't have to.
That's the thing is.
Momentum comes from things thatare new, exciting and
(17:07):
significantly improved.
Well, it's hard to manufacturemomentum, but, man, if you can
just ride the wave of othermomentum that's already being
created, like do it.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I think leaders in general we're talking to pastors
, leaders in general and youlistening, pastor identify those
natural waves that are emergingin your calendar, in your
community and, being intentionalthree months, six months, even
12 months ahead of time, to sayhow are we going to ride this
(17:39):
wave, how are we going to usethat to our benefit?
I think that would provide alot of just energy around your
initiatives that you wouldn'teven have to create.
You have to be planned outahead.
In season one, we talk aboutthe preaching calendar.
We talk about crafting thatpreaching calendar as a way of
guiding the church and guidingthe discipleship plan.
(17:59):
You know kind of where it is.
We're taking things, but if youcan identify those and plan out
ahead, that's, that's fantastic.
And that actually leads me intomy next question is you've got
this fall happening, but thatmeans you're coming out of
something.
You're coming out of the summer.
What, if any, influence shouldthe summer play in what happens
(18:21):
in the fall?
Are you, are you trying tobuild something?
People are gone, people are inand out.
Like, how do you use the summer, particularly in preaching, but
more generally for the falllaunch?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah.
So the way I think about a lotof this is to reverse engineer
it.
Go okay, what are we launching?
And then what does what we'relaunching need?
So you know, working backwards,so you might be launching a
brand new ministry right, that'ssomething that happens.
Or you might be launching a newresource initiative to raise
money for a project, a newbuilding, or whatever the case
(18:57):
might be.
So there might be somethingthat's brand new and you're
starting it.
That's one kind of thing youmight be launching.
Another thing you might belaunching is a new emphasis.
So it's not necessarily newenvironments or new programs or
new ministries, but it's a newfocus.
It's less creating somethingand more infusing your current
thing with a certain kind ofemphasis or focus.
(19:20):
And then a third approach to alaunch would be you're trying to
create new energy to existingstuff that you know over the
summer has had its ebb and flow.
So it really is thinkingthrough what are you launching?
And it is hard to effectivelylaunch all three of those things
.
I mean you could probably talkas a marketer, the success of
(19:43):
launching a product and reallylaunching it versus trying to
launch the same company, tryingto launch multiple products at
the same time.
Ah, that's a tough deal.
I even saw, right, one of thebig summer movies this summer is
Oppenheimer, and I saw one ofthe things Christopher Nolan did
is he negotiated with whoeverhe ended up having the studio
(20:05):
that had released it is?
They had a window where theysaid that studio can't release
any other movies during I don'tknow if it was three weeks or
four weeks, some period of time,because they wanted all the
marketing and all the focus andall the attention of that studio
to be on that movie.
Well, that's why you reallycan't say, well, we're gonna
launch this new thing and thisnew focus and try to get you
(20:27):
involved in this stuff thatwe've always cared about.
Like that's pretty tough.
I mean you'd say that as amarketer, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah it.
My biggest launch is my mostsuccessful financially and
numerically is when it's onething at a time sharp, narrow
focus on one thing.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So yeah, yeah, so that's where you're going.
Okay, what are we launching?
And I'd say, pick a focus onthat and then work backwards
from there and so, as you right,the next step back and we can
come back and talk about these.
But the next step back would bewhat are you preaching about
and how are you connecting it tothat launch as it's launching,
(21:07):
right?
So in our setting, where backto school is August, it'd be
okay.
What are we talking about inAugust related to that thing?
And then you're going okay,what do I need to be talking
about in July, in June relatedto that thing, so that it can be
building momentum.
And again, there's multiple waysto do that.
You could do whole sermonseries building up to that.
(21:29):
Or you could figure out how toinfuse and drip your existing
preaching with things thatconnect to whatever you're doing
.
But it's intentionally thinkingthrough.
Thinking that through right.
So if, for example, like you'retrying to go, okay, we want a
lot of our folks here because wewant to promote getting
involved in groups, you mightsay, okay, that's what we're
(21:51):
going to push in August, but inJuly we're going to really focus
on inviting friends back tochurch and that kind of a thing
we might have some big event inJuly to try to remind people why
they need to be here in August,so that then they're here in
August and now we can encouragethem to get involved in the next
, and that big event in Arizonawould be indoors.
(22:11):
That's right, or it wouldinvolve a lot of water, right,
but yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Piecing that together with what you've previously
said.
What I hear you kind ofcrafting is yes, preaching is
the most important, theessential.
However, you want to word itleadership tool for leading a
local congregation, when you areintentional in leveraging it
(22:38):
towards whichever direction thatyou're going.
If it's not connected toanything, that importance kind
of drops out.
Because that's been myexperience.
Before we hit the big red recordbutton, I told you I said my
experience has been notnecessarily Pastor Bean, hey,
everybody has to be talkingabout this, but more this is
(23:00):
what I'm talking about.
Everybody support it and asimportant as I think it is to be
on board, it was less about howis this dripping out, and it
felt more like this is the mostimportant thing.
Now, nobody was saying this isthe most important thing.
My message is above everythingelse, but functionally, that's
how it worked out and I couldvery much see how.
(23:23):
Yes, that's true if it'sbreathing life and if it's
giving vitamins and minerals andinfusing nutrition into these
other areas, and I like thatdichotomy and I like that as a
way of functioning.
Am I characterizing itcorrectly there?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, I think you're exactly right.
It really isn't as much about.
This is more important thanthat.
It's mostly to say, gosh, wegotta leverage the pulpit for
all this other stuff.
And they have to work together,they have to be in sync.
Some people have called it thepulpit ministry is like the air
war and the small groups andcare and mercy ministry.
That's like the ground warYou've talked about.
(24:00):
In marketing.
People talk about like there'sthe cloud and the soil, right,
that you've gotta have both.
They have to work together andI think that's the key and the
place where you see it and Ifeel like maybe we talked about
this in one point last seasonyou always see it work.
When there's a buildinginitiative, right, when people
have to raise money, they figurethis out, they go.
(24:21):
It's a sermon series and it'st-shirts and it's small group
meetings and it's curriculumquestions and it's bracelets
that we're gonna hand out toeverybody and we're gonna figure
out how to do it in kidsministry and we're gonna figure
out how to do it in studentministry and it's a cohesive
thing because it's like we needthe whole church to know like we
don't want anyone walking inhere on commitment day going
(24:41):
wait, what are we doing?
We want, like everyone to know,everyone to participate,
everyone to respond, and so wedo a lot of work.
When you do a buildinginitiative right I've done three
of them, I've coached probablyhalf a dozen other churches
through doing that kind of thingand you can do it and do it
really effectively but you justgo okay, that's what we do when
we need that, so we do it.
(25:02):
Now I don't think you can dothat level of intensity and
energy three times a year.
You maybe don't even wanna dothat every year, but every
couple of years you probablyneed some something, even if
it's not a building initiativeor you're raising money.
You need some kind of man.
It's catalytic, it generatesmomentum and it gets people
going and it involves that wholesync up in coordination.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
An element that I didn't even think about as we
were planning.
But listening to you talk,relationships with the staff,
with key leaders in the church,to me that sounds like it's
really an important factor inbringing these pieces together
not just having the relationship, but having good dialogue,
(25:50):
having an opportunity to connectwith your leaders, hear what's
going on and even a mechanismfor deciding okay, what's going
to make it into the sermon,what's not gonna make it into
the sermon.
I think we mentioned in anepisode last year.
I always loved it when thingsthat I was talking about made it
into a pastor's sermon and it'slike I think I said, like I
(26:13):
know just on a really like Ikinda mentioned that too.
It feels good.
What's the?
How are you managing that?
How do you make sure thatyou're staying in touch with
your staff?
As you are saying, I have theresponsibility of the sermon to
use this as a leadership tool inall, like to infuse life into
(26:33):
these other areas, like whatdoes that look like for you?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, that's a good question.
It's way more art than science.
To me, the biggest thing is Iwanna have integrity when I say,
hey, you should do this, thismatters.
So there's times when we've, aspart of a fall launch, really
emphasize community andemphasize groups, and so I'm
going, I need to be in a group.
Yeah, Like I can't go.
(26:57):
Here's something that no onecan live without except me.
You know, if I'm, when we'relaunching a building initiative,
it's not like, hey, you allshould give, it's like hey,
we're given you know and I don'tget into the details of what
we're given, but I like speed ofthe leader, speed of the team.
Right now, right this fall, forus as a church, we're launching
this new discipleship programcalled the C Jesus School and my
(27:18):
hope is, over the next three tofive years, if we could have 15
to 20% of our church go throughthis program, I think it will
transform our church as itrelates to knowing Christ and
walking with Him in prayer andenduring suffering.
I mean I think it's gonna bereally, really great.
Well, I've gone through a lotof the lessons with it and I've
(27:40):
had people on our staff take ourstaff through it and I've had
participation in it.
Right, so I haven't.
I actually was thinking aboutleading one of the groups for it
but for a couple of reasons Ihad to back out of that.
But I've gone through it and Iknow it and it's not like here's
this thing I've heard is goodand you all might like, but I've
actually experienced the lifechange that comes from it.
(28:00):
So I realized that puts alittle bit more pressure,
especially a lead pastor ifthere's a staff, because it's
like well, how do I know all thethings?
And I go, you don't have to knowall the things, but whatever,
the main thing is that you'relaunching right now.
You kind of right, this is likeyou can't just be a talker
about it.
You have to have used it.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yes, that does raise the stakes a little bit.
There's a little bit morepressure to get involved.
I know that as a lead pastor itcan be kind of not scary,
that's the wrong word Just feelweird.
To kind of get into a smallgroup, to get into a teaching
(28:42):
group to be just one of thepeople Attending something.
You always kind of feel likeyou have to lead it, or at least
people are looking at you haveto lead it.
I know that that's probably apressure that you feel.
Do you have any insight, aspastors are trying to have that
integrity be a part, how theycan balance that feeling of?
I Kind of feel like everybodywants me to lead this but I kind
(29:05):
of just want to be aparticipant.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, I mean, that is not always one of the fun parts
about ministry.
And you know, on one hand, youhave to Be self-aware, and part
of being self-aware is knowing,like, when I'm, when I'm in a
group of 15 or 20 people fromour church, even if I'm not the
leader, whoever's talking isprobably Glancing at me, right,
(29:30):
right, there's like the personwhoever's talking there, they're
always, and usually they lookat the leader.
Well, I might not be the leaderof this conversation, but they
keep looking at me, so I'm anidiot if I don't know that
that's the case.
On the other hand, I was aChristian before I was a pastor,
and If I think I have to be theone leading everything and I
have to be the one Infusingeverything with energy, then I'm
(29:53):
making everything a little bittoo much about me.
So, and I think people need theexperience of Seeing their
pastor as a Christian and notjust the leader.
Right, we feel the pressureBecause people put us on a
pedestal, but then we make itworse by allowing ourselves to
live on that pedestal.
Right, I was interacting with aguy on Twitter who was saying,
(30:15):
like you know, whenever I go tothe grocery store, I put on a
nice shirt and I put on shoes sothat I can be at the grocery
store and Because I know I'mgonna run into people from my
church and I'm like that is sostupid.
Like, if you want to put on anice shirt and shoes, like I
don't care, but like if you'redoing that for that reason, like
no, let them see you in yourgym shorts, let them see you in
your flip-flops.
Like if that's who you reallyare, like that's actually good
(30:38):
for them To not see you as somepristine, no thing that you're
not like you're.
You're human, so, anyway, so wecould do lots of conversations
about a lot of that.
But yeah, and so I, you know,this is.
This all relates to leadershipand it all relates to your team,
and I don't think even that asa, we get back to how do you
(31:01):
have to work as a team to dothis?
I don't think it means thateverything has to come from you
as the lead pastor.
I think that's another thing.
There's a sense that the leadpastor has to ascend the
mountain, like Moses, and comedown, and here's the vision, and
, and sometimes that happens,and then other times you have
people on your team are going,hey, here's what we really are
seeing, here's what we need tofocus on, here's what we need to
do, and and at that point,that's your job.
(31:24):
Then is the, as the leader, isto Understand it and experience
it enough yourself so that then,when you're communicating about
why people need to experiencethis, it has integrity and it
rings true and it's authentic.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
So I don't want to like I feel like, as I'm
listening to you talk, I'mgetting these other just curious
ideas, so I don't want to likebe going all over the place.
But in, I'm genuinely curious,as you're making the decision
then of, well, let's take this.
Is it the see Jesus?
Is that?
Yeah, okay.
Jesus school what was theprocess for deciding that this
(32:00):
is an initiative that we aregoing to do?
And and number one are youdoing a sermon series around it
or are you going to be leakingthe sermon series, leaking About
it through whatever serieswe're doing?
And number two like was thissomething that was done
overnight and that's gonna bethe initiative, or was this
something that has been buildingfor six months, twelve months,
(32:21):
and who was a part of thatconversation to help you decide
that?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
yeah.
So what it is?
I mean see Jesus as a ministrythat was founded by Paul Miller
I think you can find PaulMiller's podcast and it's really
built around three core ideasis or three key teachings.
One is Jesus is a person.
A lot of the time we just thinkabout Jesus Like he was an idea
(32:45):
or like he was like yeah, Iknow he had a robot, but
underneath that was probablylike a tight blue thing with an
s.
You know he was like a superpower, you know like he was a
real person.
So you learned of love Jesus byfocusing on him as a person.
So that's one piece.
A second piece is Is the pathof Jesus.
When Jesus says come, follow me, he doesn't say pick up your
(33:08):
lazy boy recliner and follow me.
He says pick up your cross,right?
So following Jesus is followingJesus into death and into
suffering and into self-denialand Walking with Jesus through
that.
So that's a piece.
There's the person of Jesus,there's the path of Jesus and
then the Holy Spirit's the powerof Jesus, right?
This is how you actually havethe power to keep loving and to
(33:30):
keep sacrificing and to keepsuffering Is through the power
of Jesus, and you experience thepower of Jesus, through prayer,
through the Holy Spirit.
So those are the three piecesof the see Jesus school, and and
that all comes from see Jesusministry.
Well, we've had a partnershipwith see Jesus as a ministry for
about five or six years.
So Some years ago some of ourleaders had just been exposed to
(33:51):
their ministry and thought youknow what we really need to
start infusing our existingministry with this vision of
spirituality.
And so we would start to do.
We had a bunch of pastors gothrough a prayer cohort that see
Jesus offered.
We had them come and dodifferent trainings and do
different Seminars and that sortof stuff.
(34:14):
Anyway.
So we were experiencing it.
We're like man.
This material is great.
This is so helpful.
It's transforming our, ourunderstanding of prayer.
It's transforming ourexperience of God.
It's so many people watch thechosen and they loved the chosen
.
And the reason they loved thechosen was they went oh, jesus
feels like a real person.
Yeah, and so see Jesus ministryis going.
(34:34):
Well, what if you could do thatwith the Bible?
Because you can.
You just have to slow downenough to try to do it.
So we were having, as leaders,these great experiences and
going this is just not gettinginto the church enough.
It's, it's dripping, but it'stoo slow and we thought let's,
let's formalize, and so actuallywe're.
This see Jesus school issomething that we're creating
(34:56):
really for the see Jesusministry huh.
Right.
So we're partnered with themand they're hoping that as we
pilot this, it then we'll goaround to other churches and be
a delivery system For the stuffthey're doing.
So it's, in that particularcase, it's a long time in the
making.
This past year, the woman wholeads this took about a dozen
folks through it.
(35:17):
So, she spent a whole yeartaking people who are gonna now
lead tables, and so we'll haveabout 88 slots, about exactly 88
slots For people to do the seeJesus school, and so this is.
This is another thing In thisquestion and I realized people
are like why?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
are we talking?
Speaker 2 (35:35):
about this.
Well, it's a case study in, inthis fall, launch, right.
So there is a sense in which Iwant to figure out how do we
promote this and cast vision forthis, but I only have 88 slots,
right.
We're a church of 1700 people.
There will be probably 11 or1200 adults on a Sunday, so Like
we can't have too many peoplewant to do it or we're just
(35:57):
going to frustrate them thatthis one life changing amazing
thing they can't have access tobecause really it's like limited
space.
So it's figuring out how tolaunch it with some energy and
some focus and some momentum,but not so much that it
overwhelms the thing.
So, for us, that's one of thereasons why we chose not to do a
sermon series about it.
Instead, as I'm preachingthrough first John, especially
(36:19):
in the next weeks leading up toit, there's really this like
emphasis on love.
Well, how are you going tolearn to love?
You've got to learn to seeJesus, right, so there's a way
to drip it and to integrate itinto the preaching.
So, anyway, long, long story,it's helpful case study.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I hope it's a helpful case study.
For me, it's helpful hearingabout it, the entire planning
and leading up to it.
In this case it sounded like itwas less intentional and it was
more providential, or evencoincidental, and it's like we
want to accelerate what we'reseeing in this other area.
But the point still goes if youhave a core values of your
(37:01):
church and you really want tolend support to that, you can
leverage the fall launch in away that is helpful to it,
whether it's something that'sbeen building for years or
something that it's like no,like, we need to hop on this bus
right now.
And the question then youmentioned this Am I going to do
a sermon series specificallyabout this, or am I going to be
(37:24):
intentional with dripping thisin whatever sermon series that
we're doing?
And I don't know that that'sthe only decision, but I think
that's a key decision.
And you said in this case,we're not doing a sermon series
because the opportunity is sonarrow only 88 slots.
When in the past have you madethe decision we are going to do
(37:46):
a sermon series or maybe we'regoing to have a lot more
influence on a Sunday, maybe abuilding campaign, etc.
Give me an example of theopposite, because we've made it
clear, you know why maybe youwouldn't do one.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, a building initiative would be one.
We've had times where we do ashort series related to
community and groups, and that'sa pretty common move that
people will make this time ofyear is to have a short series
on why we need connection, whywe need community, why we need
to be involved.
Those are the ones that I'vedone.
I mean, most of the time we arepreaching through books of the
(38:21):
Bible and we're kind of justplugging away through whatever
we're doing there.
But we'll think, okay, what'scoming up that we know we're
going to have to, you know, andwhat I'd say is like, if you can
, for me, this is just if I canget away with it and not have to
do a special sermon series onit.
I'd rather do that.
But I also think you know,depending on your church and
(38:45):
your environment and the way youdo series, you know if you're a
church, that's already.
You know already you're kind ofgo to as a three to six week
series and you're chunkingthrough three to six week series
throughout the year.
Well then, in that case I gowell, definitely, just tie some
series to whatever you're tryingto infuse energy.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
We started it off saying you know, teaching is
this essential tool in leading alocal congregation, and we've I
believe we've wrapped a lot offlesh around that, that it's not
everything revolves around theteaching, but it's more along
the lines of know that teachingis used to help us move along in
whatever we're doing as achurch.
It's, it's a vehicle for makingthat happen.
(39:26):
I think that's great.
The statement that the falllaunch is really about
everything outside of thepreaching.
But how does the preachinginfluence it?
I don't know that there's likea really clean bow.
We can wrap around this,because that is the case it's.
It really is lots of excitement, lots of momentum.
You kick off your midweekprograms.
That's always exciting.
(39:48):
One of the things that we do atour church in student
ministries, it's this fuseweekend.
It's where all of the sixthrough the 12th grade they get
together into these small groupsand then they go spend the
night at different, differenthomes of members in the church
and and folks in the south willknow that, as a D now weekend.
Okay, oh yeah, d now.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, that's the kind of same idea.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
So that's a big thing that we do and and one of the
things that's a value at ourchurch is really investing in
the next gen and making thatapparent and making that known.
Do we do a fuse Sunday afterthe fuse weekend?
Is there a fuse?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Well, the last session of fuse is the Sunday.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Sunday morning service right.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And we do it about a month into the school year.
So you're trying to get thosekids fused to the Lord and to
the church and the ministry.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
And so in it's really cool we change the entire
facility and the worship centerand, instead of doing things
where everyone faces the front,it's then done in the round for
now, for now, there we go, butit's it's.
It's a really unique thing thathappens, and so that's, you
know, something that we putenergy behind because we value,
(41:00):
you know, youth ministry and theyouth being connected, and it's
fun.
My, my son is now sixth grade,so he's real excited about doing
that and sure he's been joiningus in the Sunday morning
service.
We talk about that in one ofthe last season episodes, but
really, are there any finalthoughts that you have just
about fall launch and teachingas this tool to move and to grow
(41:21):
and to lead through whatever itis you're doing?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, I have two, two main thoughts on it.
One is someone might belistening to us going, well,
gosh, I don't, am I?
I don't have anything, I'mlaunching, I don't know, and I
think like that's maybe okay,but this is an opportunity to
think about.
Is there's because of thenatural momentum of this?
season this is an opportunity.
(41:46):
You don't have to go createsome new thing, you don't have
to create the C Jesus school,but you might say what's?
What's an area that we reallywant to breathe extra life into,
and so this is an opportunityto think about that.
Now, the second thing is theconverse of that, which is to
say that means you're going tonot give a lot of attention and
energy to everything else, whichmeans you're going to have to
(42:08):
disappoint a lot of your staffor your volunteers, or your
leaders right.
Because everyone is thinking, oh, this is the perfect time for
the pastor to help us havemomentum.
So, pastor, if you could makesure to say something about the
marriage ministry, and saysomething about the men's
ministry and the women'sministry, and the groups and the
compassion and the right.
And now you're like 17 minuteannouncements and it's in this
(42:32):
and this and this and this andthis and, like we talked about
earlier as a, as a marketer, asa communicator which is what you
are, dave like that's just arecipe for no one to really
respond to any of it, and so youdo have to have the discipline
to be able to say no, we'refocusing on this.
We're giving this, on purpose,disproportionate attention,
which means these other thingsare going to feel like they're
(42:54):
not as important because Rightnow they're not.
That's a hard thing, right,it's hard to.
It's not to say it's notimportant.
It's to say, right now we'refocusing on this.
But that's a key part of theleadership equation in this
process, or else the launch isgoing to be more of a lurch.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
So normally I'll let you have the last word, but I'm
going to take the last word.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, you should.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Because I actually have a solution, or at least a
potential solution, for whatyou're talking about.
Oh great, so let's say that youare launching.
This won't be hard for you.
You're launching a See Jesustype of initiative.
Well, you may not be able topromote all of these different
ministries, but what you coulddo is you could say, ok, we know
(43:41):
that this ministry hassomething really important
coming up.
We cannot give attention to thatbecause we're doing attention
to this.
However, what we could do is wecould find somebody in that
ministry who is really livingout or really experiencing one
of the main values that alignswith what it is we are doing,
and we could tell their storyand we could say you know, well,
(44:03):
belle's been a part of men'sfight club for X number of years
and one of the things that hecharacterizes is he has been
able to see Jesus form in thelives of these other men, and
how has that looked and what hasthat meant for you?
And how has that?
How has that?
How does your family see Jesusin you now?
And so, all of a sudden, it's apromotion for see Jesus, but
(44:27):
it's got this element of, andhe's been a part of the men's
fight club for the last year, orshe's been a part of the
women's ministry, or he's beenan intern in student ministries,
whatever the case might be.
But you can talk about the mainthing and just kind of pair it
up with elements of yourministry happening throughout
(44:48):
the church that tend to alignwith it, and it kind of makes
everybody happy.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah, Well, I love that and I love how I mean that
does.
That sounds even more cohesiveand yeah, that's really great.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
So thank you so much for listening.
Hope this is an encouragingconversation and, depending on
when you are listening to this,if you're not listening to this,
as you approach the fallkickoff early on in the episode
you said it, luke, like this isreally more about kicking off in
general, whenever that seasonof start, whenever that season
of initiative is.
(45:20):
It could be after Christmas, itcould be that last sprint
before graduation season comesin.
Whatever the case might be,look at what the natural ebbs
and flows of the calendar havefor your church, have in your
context, and look for ways tocapitalize on that.
You don't have to always createthe momentum.
(45:41):
In fact, you probably shouldn't.
It's exhausting to feel likeyou have to pull the yoke of the
entire church on your back andcarry it.
We don't want you to do that.
You're going to burn out.
You'll be good for no one, goodfor nothing.
Really, we want you to use thetools and the resourcing and the
calendar that's already therefor you so that you can launch
into a successful season ofwhatever it is God's calling
(46:04):
your church to be and to become.
Thank you for listening.
If you want to go over to iTunesor Spotify, leave a review.
We would love to hear from you.
If there's something you'd loveto talk more about, you can
reach out to us at info atfaithfulandfruitfulcom.
That goes to both Luke and to Iand we'll get back to you in
any way we can, whether it'spersonally getting back to you
(46:25):
or maybe we'll do an episode onit but we are here to resource
you.
You are not alone in thisministry that you are building.
You are not facing it all byyourself, and if we can be one
voice of encouragement in thatprocess, we would love it.
In the next episode we're goingto be talking more about what
we started this episode with theABCs of preaching, and you've
already kind of hinted it.
(46:46):
But just give us one morelittle taste.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
So that's your assumptions, your beliefs, your
convictions, what drives youwhen it comes to your preaching.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
All right, we'll talk about it next time.
Alright man, what is the most significant tool for
leading a local church?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Man, every time you say most significant, it's hard
to answer, but what comes tomind is preaching.
I don't think preaching is themost important thing in the
church.
It's not the most important oronly ministry of the church, but
I think it's the most usefuland significant tool for leading
a church.
It's really hard to lead achurch without the pulpit,
without the consistent, regularvoice of preaching God's Word
(00:26):
and hearing God's voice.
It's a tough thing to do.
Some people are extraordinarilygifted and they can pull it off
, but it's a key tool and it'swhy this season is worth doing.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Well, of course, the lead pastor would say that the
preaching is the mostsignificant tool.
But I think there's more to itthan that, and that's what we'll
get into Ready.
Yeah, hey there.
Welcome back to the preachingthrough podcast.
This is season two.
My name is Dave Shrine and I amalongside my co-host, luke
Simmons.
What's up, man?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Hey, dave, I'm glad to be doing this again.
Yeah, man, season two it's.
I don't know how many podcastsmake it to a season two, but
here we are, here we are, mostpodcasts don't actually make it
past eight episodes, so there'sa little marketing information
for you.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So we're like we'll just pat ourselves on the back.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
No, we won't do that.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Let's see if we can get eight episodes in this
season too.
No, I've been looking forward togetting back and chatting.
I love ministry.
I like talking ministry withyou.
My background is in ministry,your background is in ministry,
so it's just an appropriateconversation to have.
So, yeah, yeah, this is thepreaching through podcast.
If this is the first timeyou're ever listening, welcome.
This is the conversation thattakes place Takes place when
(01:38):
pastors get together toencourage one another to grow
together, to improve upon theirskills and their leadership and
their preaching.
Also that they can lead in 21stcentury America, pointing
people to Jesus.
What does it look like topreach in 21st century America?
That's the conversation that wehave, and so we're excited to
(01:59):
have you along for thatconversation.
As already mentioned, this isseason two, so we've got 10
episodes and a bonus episodethat you can actually go back
and listen to at any point intime.
Last season was all aboutpreaching through different
nuances, different texts,different types of passages or
ways to approach even sermonseries.
This season, it's a little bitmore nuanced towards, you know,
(02:21):
seasons of ministry, a littlebit more nuanced towards
different dynamics that youencounter, and one of the
conversations that we're goingto have is preaching through the
camera, like live streaming,and talking about how do you
connect with your congregationthrough live streaming, and so
that's not today's conversation.
Today's conversation isactually preaching through a
(02:42):
fall launch and, as we werepreparing our outline, it's
really less about the preachingin some respects and it's more
about everything else that'shappening.
That fall launch and you hadkind of framed it up that way
what, what?
When you think fall launch,what do you think?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah Well, for a lot of churches, the fall really is
the kickoff to their ministryseason, right?
The reality is we just follow aschool year kind of flow, and
so the fall really feels likethe beginning of the year.
It's always a weird thing,especially for those churches
like ours where the budgetbegins in January but the
ministry year really begins inAugust or September.
For us here in Arizona, itactually is like the end of July
(03:19):
is back to school.
But yeah, that's what we thinkof fall launch, and I think the
principles we're going to talkabout here really will relate to
the launch of any particularseason.
So someone might be listening tothis and falls, you know, a
long time away, but you go okay,well, a new year launch or a
summer launch or any time.
There's going to be a kind oflaunch moment.
I think what we're going totalk about will help.
(03:40):
But yeah, the fall really is akey time.
A lot of people come back, alot of new people get invited,
there's a chance to launchministry and have a renewed
focus, and it's just a time thatyou don't want to waste.
You've got to make the most ofit.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
One of the things that really influences the fall
launch is what are you comingout of in summer?
So we'll talk a little bitabout that.
Another thing is like how muchof the preaching influences
what's going on throughout therest of the church, or how much
does the rest of the churchinfluence the preaching, even to
the point of gosh?
(04:13):
Like are we going to do asermon series about this thing
or are we just going to kind ofdrip this thing throughout the
sermon series?
So we'll talk a little bitabout that.
But by and large it's just anopportunity to be a leader in
that entire like, to offer someleadership and some guidance.
I know that you had said in thepast like the big guy being
around was something that youvery early learned that you
(04:36):
wanted to have, like the leadpastor, just how important that
was.
Why don't you share a littlebit about that?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, when I was starting in vocational ministry,
I was leading small groups andmen's ministry.
It was at a pretty large churchbut we had a senior pastor who
I mean in so many ways he wasjust the best guy ever.
But one irritating thing was hewould leave for all of August
and in our environment Augustwas prime time back to school
(05:04):
and, man, it was just sofrustrating as a staff guy
because you'd be launching a newinitiative or creating a new
emphasis on small groups orwhatever.
The case would be that thatstuff that's happening
throughout the week that thechurch calendar is filled with
that really is important fordisciple making, and yet he was
gone and he was the person thatpeople were looking to Like.
If he, if he said, hey, I readthis book, people would go buy
(05:26):
that book.
If he said, hey, you got to goget involved with this or that,
people would listen.
Now you can debate about shouldpeople listen that much to a
lead pastor?
Should he have that muchinfluence?
I don't know, but he did.
And for him to be gone duringthat key season, I was just so
frustrating, and so it actuallyshaped part of how I think about
my church calendar and vacationcalendar is I try to get my
(05:50):
vacation out of the way earlieron in the summer so that I can
be around in the weeks leadingup to and during that fall on.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Well, I think that comes back to the question that
we opened up with was what isthe most significant tool for
leading the local church?
And your answer was, you know,the sermon, the pulpit, that
that preaching moment is, youknow, the most significant, or
one of the most significant itcertainly in our context here it
is.
And to have that presence goneto not be in sync and we'll talk
(06:20):
about that in this episode aswell to not be in sync, that
does create a level of how arewe going to move this thing
forward without that primarytool that we're really counting
on.
So all of that is what you arein store for in this episode.
Like I said, if this is thefirst time you're ever listening
, we are so grateful to have youhere.
We know that you could be doinga lot of other things with your
(06:42):
time.
There's a lot of differentpodcasts out there that you
could be listening to, and wesure do hope that we can provide
some encouragement and someinsight and maybe even inspire
you to approach your leadershipand your preaching and this
responsibility that you haveweek in and week out with a new
perspective and hopefully evenreplace some of the joy in the
leadership of preaching andmaybe take some burdens off your
(07:05):
back or at least be a part ofthe conversation and, you know,
start that process of what doesit look like for you to elevate
in this area.
So it's going to be a funseason.
I'm anxious to get going onthis first episode and yeah,
let's talk about it Preachingyour first 200 sermons are going
to be terrible.
This is something the late TimKeller once said, meaning that
(07:26):
no matter how hard you study,how many hours you put in or how
much you work on your preaching, there's this glass ceiling
that can only be broken withmore reps.
So getting reps becomes yourmain way of growing as a
preacher.
But what happens when yousurpass 200 sermons?
What are you supposed to workon?
Where should you try and grow?
Or what muscles are you goingto need to build to have a
(07:47):
faithful and fruitful preachingministry over the long haul?
Well, the preaching lab is acurriculum developed by our
co-host, luke Simmons, thatfills this gap and takes
preachers beyond what they'velearned in seminary or Bible
college.
This live experience providespreachers with meaningful
feedback, insight andinstructions so that they can
improve their preaching for afaithful and fruitful preaching
(08:09):
ministry.
During this 12-week preachingcohort preachers learn of minor
adjustments to their sermonhabits that have a major impact
on the preaching moment Tweaksthat nobody in your congregation
has the ability or theconfidence to give you.
It's a deep inspection of yourroutine habit, study and
preaching, all so that you canbecome a better steward of the
(08:29):
gift God has given you everysingle week an audience.
It's your opportunity to returnthe favor back to your
congregation and preach a sermonthat is faithful and fruitful.
Visit faithfulandfruitfulcomslash lab to learn more about
the preaching lab live cohort,as well as the preaching lab
on-demand video curriculum.
(08:49):
Now back to the podcast.
Alright, I'm going to go backto it again because I think it
requires a little bit ofexplanation.
You may have some non-leadpastors, non-teaching pastors,
listening, thinking hey, what Ido for the church is super
important and it's not about me,but you know there's a lot of
(09:13):
people counting on this, andthen to say that the most
significant tool leading thelocal church is the preaching.
Let's unpack that a little bit.
Where does that come from?
How did you come to thatconclusion, and is it an
exclusionary thing?
It's like everything has to bepointing towards this.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, good question.
And where it comes from is Icame up with these 10 ABCs of
preaching, which stands forassumptions, beliefs,
convictions, and actually Ithink we're going to talk about
that in a coming episode.
I think every preacher shouldat least have thought through
what are their assumptions, whatare their beliefs, what are
their convictions aboutpreaching, how it works, what
its role is in the local church.
(09:49):
So one of them to me is thatpreaching is the most
significant leadership tool forleading the local church.
Now, that wording is importantand specific.
I'm not saying preaching is themost important part of a local
church.
I'm not saying the preacher isthe most important part of a
local church.
I'm not saying preaching is themost significant ministry in
(10:11):
the local church.
It's important to say preachingis the most significant tool
for leading the local church,necessarily for caring for the
church, not necessarily formotivating.
I mean, it's really like it'sthat leading is the issue right,
there's lots of different waysto lead and there's lots of
(10:31):
different things that relate toleading, and leadership isn't
the most important part of thechurch either.
But if you're thinking about,okay, I'm a lead pastor and I've
got all these different tools,I can communicate and I can
spend time with people and I canwrite emails and I can have a
meeting and I can create aphysical environment.
(10:52):
I mean, there's just all kindsof things that you go okay, I
could use this tool, I could usethis tool, I could use this
tool, and hopefully we're usinga lot of those tools.
What I'm saying is as a leaderright, especially, really, this
is true if you're in a smallerchurch or a church plant, or
you're in a more establishedchurch and a big staff.
Either way, you're looking atall your tools going.
Okay, we're here right now.
(11:14):
We're trying to get there.
How do we get people from hereto there?
One of the tools that is justthe most effective and gets you
there fastest is preaching.
Right, it's what you have theopportunity to say in your
sermons, and so that's why I saythat it's not to denigrate
(11:34):
small groups.
It's not to look down uponcounseling.
It's not to say that the peoplewho are doing care ministry and
compassion ministry are doingless significant ministry than
the preaching.
It is to say, the thing thatgets you from here to there is
typically not all those otherthings as much as it is the
preaching.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Like you said, we will have an episode on the ABCs
.
I actually think it might bethe very next episode here, but
one of the things in one of thevideos that exists in the
preaching lab curriculum thatyou've put together is you say
that the ABCs exist in part.
Like one of the benefits ofthem, I guess you could say is
that if somebody comes up to youand critiques your preaching or
(12:14):
critiques your leadership orwhatever it is, if it's not part
of your core values, it's notpart of your ABCs.
It's kind of like, okay, well,I can kind of disregard that or
just take it for what it's worth.
Whereas if somebody comes up toyou and it says, hey, it feels
like you're phoning in thesermon on Sunday, well, one of
my core beliefs here is thatpreaching is an essential tool
(12:39):
for leading a congregation andit provides a level of
conviction like, well, I need tokey into that, and so it's easy
, I think, for us to look at ourindividual roles and jobs and
say this is an essential part.
The flip side of that is youhave to treat it like it's an
essential part, you have to carefor it, you have to nurture it,
you have to invest in it.
You have to continue to grow it.
What are some ways that you canmaintain kind of a level of
(13:03):
just accountability to make surethat you're treating it that
way, that you're stewarding itwell?
I mean, I'm not just phoning itin.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, I mean phoning it in isn't really a thing I
struggle with.
I'm just not really wired tophone it in very much.
I'm probably wired the otherway.
The danger for me is more toactually be tempted to think
preaching is the most importantpart of the church and to forget
.
No, this is my particular gift,I'm one particular part of the
(13:32):
body and I'm going to use thisgift to advance our overall
mission.
That is a temptation.
I mean like even the reasonpeople would hear preaching is
the most significant tool forleading a local church and have
a flinch like ah, that sounds alittle megalomaniac, is because
they've experienced pastors whotreat it that way.
They treat it like preaching isthe most important thing in the
(13:53):
local church, not just the mostimportant leadership tool.
And so what ends up happening?
No one would ever say it outloud, but what ends up happening
is everything is reallydesigned in the church to try to
get the maximum number ofpeople to be there listening to
the preacher on.
Sunday.
Well, that's just not ourmission.
That's not at least at ourchurch.
That's not our mission.
I don't think that should bethe mission.
(14:14):
I think getting people tochurch on Sunday is a great
thing.
I think what we do on Sundayreally matters or I wouldn't
spend so much time doing itRight?
But it is to say that that'snot the goal.
The goal is that people wouldbecome like Christ, that they
would grow in their love, thatthey'd have an understanding of
God's love for them, that theywould love their friends and
their family and their neighborsand their coworkers, and that
they would be the hands and feetof Jesus, and so that's the
(14:37):
mission.
Now I want to leverage my giftsand my strengths as a preacher
to try to advance that mission.
But that also means that itjust can't be.
I mean, the people who aregrowing the most in those ways
are not the people who only showup on Sunday.
Right, it's the people who showup on Sunday and they're
serving somewhere and they'reinvolved in some kind of
(14:57):
community and they're doingthings in their work to try to
integrate their faith in theirwork.
And maybe they're involved inthe community by coaching a team
or by helping out in anonprofit or whatever the case
might be, but those are thepeople.
So it's really to say, okay,how does the preaching moment do
the teaching and encouragingand building up, but also how
(15:19):
does it facilitate people'sparticipation in these other
disciple making environments?
And when I think of a falllaunch, that's what I'm thinking
.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
I'm thinking, okay, this is not just, it's not like
just the launch of a sermonseries.
Well, we're always doing sermonseries.
It's not the launch of a newSunday morning.
We've been doing Sunday morning.
It's the launch of all theseother ministries that are going.
We're saying, hey, these needlife, these matter, these are
part of your overall experience,because we want you to grow as
a healthy disciple.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Just as a reminder for those who have already
listened and this is your firsttime my background I spent a lot
of time in church, musiciancommunications, and today I run
a marketing company, a marketingagency, and so one of the
things that I love about theschool calendar, the annual
calendar, is it provides thesenatural moments, these natural
(16:07):
points of momentum.
Just every year at this time,no matter who's in your
organization, who's in yourchurch, there's going to be some
momentum around this, and as amarketer, I love coming and like
really using that as a buttressfor whatever campaign that I
want to run.
The most obvious is BlackFriday.
Right, that happens every yearand all the retailers are on it,
(16:30):
and it's to a point now whereAmazon even creates its own
Black Friday in July andeverybody just jumps on around
it.
And so there's these, whetherthey are just natural ebb and
flow or whether they've beenmanufactured.
There is just a level ofmomentum.
And so what I hear you say yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I mean you have like, everyone's going to go get
their hair cut Right and you'regoing to take the kids they did
last week.
You're going to take the kidsto go get some back to school
clothes and like everythingabout it feels like a fresh
start, so like leverage it Likeyou don't have to.
That's the thing is.
Momentum comes from things thatare new, exciting and
(17:07):
significantly improved.
Well, it's hard to manufacturemomentum, but, man, if you can
just ride the wave of othermomentum that's already being
created, like do it.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I think leaders in general we're talking to pastors
, leaders in general and youlistening, pastor identify those
natural waves that are emergingin your calendar, in your
community and, being intentionalthree months, six months, even
12 months ahead of time, to sayhow are we going to ride this
(17:39):
wave, how are we going to usethat to our benefit?
I think that would provide alot of just energy around your
initiatives that you wouldn'teven have to create.
You have to be planned outahead.
In season one, we talk aboutthe preaching calendar.
We talk about crafting thatpreaching calendar as a way of
guiding the church and guidingthe discipleship plan.
(17:59):
You know kind of where it is.
We're taking things, but if youcan identify those and plan out
ahead, that's, that's fantastic.
And that actually leads me intomy next question is you've got
this fall happening, but thatmeans you're coming out of
something.
You're coming out of the summer.
What, if any, influence shouldthe summer play in what happens
(18:21):
in the fall?
Are you, are you trying tobuild something?
People are gone, people are inand out.
Like, how do you use the summer, particularly in preaching, but
more generally for the falllaunch?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah.
So the way I think about a lotof this is to reverse engineer
it.
Go okay, what are we launching?
And then what does what we'relaunching need?
So you know, working backwards,so you might be launching a
brand new ministry right, that'ssomething that happens.
Or you might be launching a newresource initiative to raise
money for a project, a newbuilding, or whatever the case
(18:57):
might be.
So there might be somethingthat's brand new and you're
starting it.
That's one kind of thing youmight be launching.
Another thing you might belaunching is a new emphasis.
So it's not necessarily newenvironments or new programs or
new ministries, but it's a newfocus.
It's less creating somethingand more infusing your current
thing with a certain kind ofemphasis or focus.
(19:20):
And then a third approach to alaunch would be you're trying to
create new energy to existingstuff that you know over the
summer has had its ebb and flow.
So it really is thinkingthrough what are you launching?
And it is hard to effectivelylaunch all three of those things
.
I mean you could probably talkas a marketer, the success of
(19:43):
launching a product and reallylaunching it versus trying to
launch the same company, tryingto launch multiple products at
the same time.
Ah, that's a tough deal.
I even saw, right, one of thebig summer movies this summer is
Oppenheimer, and I saw one ofthe things Christopher Nolan did
is he negotiated with whoeverhe ended up having the studio
(20:05):
that had released it is?
They had a window where theysaid that studio can't release
any other movies during I don'tknow if it was three weeks or
four weeks, some period of time,because they wanted all the
marketing and all the focus andall the attention of that studio
to be on that movie.
Well, that's why you reallycan't say, well, we're gonna
launch this new thing and thisnew focus and try to get you
(20:27):
involved in this stuff thatwe've always cared about.
Like that's pretty tough.
I mean you'd say that as amarketer, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah it.
My biggest launch is my mostsuccessful financially and
numerically is when it's onething at a time sharp, narrow
focus on one thing.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So yeah, yeah, so that's where you're going.
Okay, what are we launching?
And I'd say, pick a focus onthat and then work backwards
from there and so, as you right,the next step back and we can
come back and talk about these.
But the next step back would bewhat are you preaching about
and how are you connecting it tothat launch as it's launching,
(21:07):
right?
So in our setting, where backto school is August, it'd be
okay.
What are we talking about inAugust related to that thing?
And then you're going okay,what do I need to be talking
about in July, in June relatedto that thing, so that it can be
building momentum.
And again, there's multiple waysto do that.
You could do whole sermonseries building up to that.
(21:29):
Or you could figure out how toinfuse and drip your existing
preaching with things thatconnect to whatever you're doing
.
But it's intentionally thinkingthrough.
Thinking that through right.
So if, for example, like you'retrying to go, okay, we want a
lot of our folks here because wewant to promote getting
involved in groups, you mightsay, okay, that's what we're
(21:51):
going to push in August, but inJuly we're going to really focus
on inviting friends back tochurch and that kind of a thing
we might have some big event inJuly to try to remind people why
they need to be here in August,so that then they're here in
August and now we can encouragethem to get involved in the next
, and that big event in Arizonawould be indoors.
(22:11):
That's right, or it wouldinvolve a lot of water, right,
but yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Piecing that together with what you've previously
said.
What I hear you kind ofcrafting is yes, preaching is
the most important, theessential.
However, you want to word itleadership tool for leading a
local congregation, when you areintentional in leveraging it
(22:38):
towards whichever direction thatyou're going.
If it's not connected toanything, that importance kind
of drops out.
Because that's been myexperience.
Before we hit the big red recordbutton, I told you I said my
experience has been notnecessarily Pastor Bean, hey,
everybody has to be talkingabout this, but more this is
(23:00):
what I'm talking about.
Everybody support it and asimportant as I think it is to be
on board, it was less about howis this dripping out, and it
felt more like this is the mostimportant thing.
Now, nobody was saying this isthe most important thing.
My message is above everythingelse, but functionally, that's
how it worked out and I couldvery much see how.
(23:23):
Yes, that's true if it'sbreathing life and if it's
giving vitamins and minerals andinfusing nutrition into these
other areas, and I like thatdichotomy and I like that as a
way of functioning.
Am I characterizing itcorrectly there?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, I think you're exactly right.
It really isn't as much about.
This is more important thanthat.
It's mostly to say, gosh, wegotta leverage the pulpit for
all this other stuff.
And they have to work together,they have to be in sync.
Some people have called it thepulpit ministry is like the air
war and the small groups andcare and mercy ministry.
That's like the ground warYou've talked about.
(24:00):
In marketing.
People talk about like there'sthe cloud and the soil, right,
that you've gotta have both.
They have to work together andI think that's the key and the
place where you see it and Ifeel like maybe we talked about
this in one point last seasonyou always see it work.
When there's a buildinginitiative, right, when people
have to raise money, they figurethis out, they go.
(24:21):
It's a sermon series and it'st-shirts and it's small group
meetings and it's curriculumquestions and it's bracelets
that we're gonna hand out toeverybody and we're gonna figure
out how to do it in kidsministry and we're gonna figure
out how to do it in studentministry and it's a cohesive
thing because it's like we needthe whole church to know like we
don't want anyone walking inhere on commitment day going
(24:41):
wait, what are we doing?
We want, like everyone to know,everyone to participate,
everyone to respond, and so wedo a lot of work.
When you do a buildinginitiative right I've done three
of them, I've coached probablyhalf a dozen other churches
through doing that kind of thingand you can do it and do it
really effectively but you justgo okay, that's what we do when
we need that, so we do it.
(25:02):
Now I don't think you can dothat level of intensity and
energy three times a year.
You maybe don't even wanna dothat every year, but every
couple of years you probablyneed some something, even if
it's not a building initiativeor you're raising money.
You need some kind of man.
It's catalytic, it generatesmomentum and it gets people
going and it involves that wholesync up in coordination.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
An element that I didn't even think about as we
were planning.
But listening to you talk,relationships with the staff,
with key leaders in the church,to me that sounds like it's
really an important factor inbringing these pieces together
not just having the relationship, but having good dialogue,
(25:50):
having an opportunity to connectwith your leaders, hear what's
going on and even a mechanismfor deciding okay, what's going
to make it into the sermon,what's not gonna make it into
the sermon.
I think we mentioned in anepisode last year.
I always loved it when thingsthat I was talking about made it
into a pastor's sermon and it'slike I think I said, like I
(26:13):
know just on a really like Ikinda mentioned that too.
It feels good.
What's the?
How are you managing that?
How do you make sure thatyou're staying in touch with
your staff?
As you are saying, I have theresponsibility of the sermon to
use this as a leadership tool inall, like to infuse life into
(26:33):
these other areas, like whatdoes that look like for you?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, that's a good question.
It's way more art than science.
To me, the biggest thing is Iwanna have integrity when I say,
hey, you should do this, thismatters.
So there's times when we've, aspart of a fall launch, really
emphasize community andemphasize groups, and so I'm
going, I need to be in a group.
Yeah, Like I can't go.
(26:57):
Here's something that no onecan live without except me.
You know, if I'm, when we'relaunching a building initiative,
it's not like, hey, you allshould give, it's like hey,
we're given you know and I don'tget into the details of what
we're given, but I like speed ofthe leader, speed of the team.
Right now, right this fall, forus as a church, we're launching
this new discipleship programcalled the C Jesus School and my
(27:18):
hope is, over the next three tofive years, if we could have 15
to 20% of our church go throughthis program, I think it will
transform our church as itrelates to knowing Christ and
walking with Him in prayer andenduring suffering.
I mean I think it's gonna bereally, really great.
Well, I've gone through a lotof the lessons with it and I've
(27:40):
had people on our staff take ourstaff through it and I've had
participation in it.
Right, so I haven't.
I actually was thinking aboutleading one of the groups for it
but for a couple of reasons Ihad to back out of that.
But I've gone through it and Iknow it and it's not like here's
this thing I've heard is goodand you all might like, but I've
actually experienced the lifechange that comes from it.
(28:00):
So I realized that puts alittle bit more pressure,
especially a lead pastor ifthere's a staff, because it's
like well, how do I know all thethings?
And I go, you don't have to knowall the things, but whatever,
the main thing is that you'relaunching right now.
You kind of right, this is likeyou can't just be a talker
about it.
You have to have used it.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yes, that does raise the stakes a little bit.
There's a little bit morepressure to get involved.
I know that as a lead pastor itcan be kind of not scary,
that's the wrong word Just feelweird.
To kind of get into a smallgroup, to get into a teaching
(28:42):
group to be just one of thepeople Attending something.
You always kind of feel likeyou have to lead it, or at least
people are looking at you haveto lead it.
I know that that's probably apressure that you feel.
Do you have any insight, aspastors are trying to have that
integrity be a part, how theycan balance that feeling of?
I Kind of feel like everybodywants me to lead this but I kind
(29:05):
of just want to be aparticipant.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, I mean, that is not always one of the fun parts
about ministry.
And you know, on one hand, youhave to Be self-aware, and part
of being self-aware is knowing,like, when I'm, when I'm in a
group of 15 or 20 people fromour church, even if I'm not the
leader, whoever's talking isprobably Glancing at me, right,
(29:30):
right, there's like the personwhoever's talking there, they're
always, and usually they lookat the leader.
Well, I might not be the leaderof this conversation, but they
keep looking at me, so I'm anidiot if I don't know that
that's the case.
On the other hand, I was aChristian before I was a pastor,
and If I think I have to be theone leading everything and I
have to be the one Infusingeverything with energy, then I'm
(29:53):
making everything a little bittoo much about me.
So, and I think people need theexperience of Seeing their
pastor as a Christian and notjust the leader.
Right, we feel the pressureBecause people put us on a
pedestal, but then we make itworse by allowing ourselves to
live on that pedestal.
Right, I was interacting with aguy on Twitter who was saying,
(30:15):
like you know, whenever I go tothe grocery store, I put on a
nice shirt and I put on shoes sothat I can be at the grocery
store and Because I know I'mgonna run into people from my
church and I'm like that is sostupid.
Like, if you want to put on anice shirt and shoes, like I
don't care, but like if you'redoing that for that reason, like
no, let them see you in yourgym shorts, let them see you in
your flip-flops.
Like if that's who you reallyare, like that's actually good
(30:38):
for them To not see you as somepristine, no thing that you're
not like you're.
You're human, so, anyway, so wecould do lots of conversations
about a lot of that.
But yeah, and so I, you know,this is.
This all relates to leadershipand it all relates to your team,
and I don't think even that asa, we get back to how do you
(31:01):
have to work as a team to dothis?
I don't think it means thateverything has to come from you
as the lead pastor.
I think that's another thing.
There's a sense that the leadpastor has to ascend the
mountain, like Moses, and comedown, and here's the vision, and
, and sometimes that happens,and then other times you have
people on your team are going,hey, here's what we really are
seeing, here's what we need tofocus on, here's what we need to
do, and and at that point,that's your job.
(31:24):
Then is the, as the leader, isto Understand it and experience
it enough yourself so that then,when you're communicating about
why people need to experiencethis, it has integrity and it
rings true and it's authentic.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
So I don't want to like I feel like, as I'm
listening to you talk, I'mgetting these other just curious
ideas, so I don't want to likebe going all over the place.
But in, I'm genuinely curious,as you're making the decision
then of, well, let's take this.
Is it the see Jesus?
Is that?
Yeah, okay.
Jesus school what was theprocess for deciding that this
(32:00):
is an initiative that we aregoing to do?
And and number one are youdoing a sermon series around it
or are you going to be leakingthe sermon series, leaking About
it through whatever serieswe're doing?
And number two like was thissomething that was done
overnight and that's gonna bethe initiative, or was this
something that has been buildingfor six months, twelve months,
(32:21):
and who was a part of thatconversation to help you decide
that?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
yeah.
So what it is?
I mean see Jesus as a ministrythat was founded by Paul Miller
I think you can find PaulMiller's podcast and it's really
built around three core ideasis or three key teachings.
One is Jesus is a person.
A lot of the time we just thinkabout Jesus Like he was an idea
(32:45):
or like he was like yeah, Iknow he had a robot, but
underneath that was probablylike a tight blue thing with an
s.
You know he was like a superpower, you know like he was a
real person.
So you learned of love Jesus byfocusing on him as a person.
So that's one piece.
A second piece is Is the pathof Jesus.
When Jesus says come, follow me, he doesn't say pick up your
(33:08):
lazy boy recliner and follow me.
He says pick up your cross,right?
So following Jesus is followingJesus into death and into
suffering and into self-denialand Walking with Jesus through
that.
So that's a piece.
There's the person of Jesus,there's the path of Jesus and
then the Holy Spirit's the powerof Jesus, right?
This is how you actually havethe power to keep loving and to
(33:30):
keep sacrificing and to keepsuffering Is through the power
of Jesus, and you experience thepower of Jesus, through prayer,
through the Holy Spirit.
So those are the three piecesof the see Jesus school, and and
that all comes from see Jesusministry.
Well, we've had a partnershipwith see Jesus as a ministry for
about five or six years.
So Some years ago some of ourleaders had just been exposed to
(33:51):
their ministry and thought youknow what we really need to
start infusing our existingministry with this vision of
spirituality.
And so we would start to do.
We had a bunch of pastors gothrough a prayer cohort that see
Jesus offered.
We had them come and dodifferent trainings and do
different Seminars and that sortof stuff.
(34:14):
Anyway.
So we were experiencing it.
We're like man.
This material is great.
This is so helpful.
It's transforming our, ourunderstanding of prayer.
It's transforming ourexperience of God.
It's so many people watch thechosen and they loved the chosen
.
And the reason they loved thechosen was they went oh, jesus
feels like a real person.
Yeah, and so see Jesus ministryis going.
(34:34):
Well, what if you could do thatwith the Bible?
Because you can.
You just have to slow downenough to try to do it.
So we were having, as leaders,these great experiences and
going this is just not gettinginto the church enough.
It's, it's dripping, but it'stoo slow and we thought let's,
let's formalize, and so actuallywe're.
This see Jesus school issomething that we're creating
(34:56):
really for the see Jesusministry huh.
Right.
So we're partnered with themand they're hoping that as we
pilot this, it then we'll goaround to other churches and be
a delivery system For the stuffthey're doing.
So it's, in that particularcase, it's a long time in the
making.
This past year, the woman wholeads this took about a dozen
folks through it.
(35:17):
So, she spent a whole yeartaking people who are gonna now
lead tables, and so we'll haveabout 88 slots, about exactly 88
slots For people to do the seeJesus school, and so this is.
This is another thing In thisquestion and I realized people
are like why?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
are we talking?
Speaker 2 (35:35):
about this.
Well, it's a case study in, inthis fall, launch, right.
So there is a sense in which Iwant to figure out how do we
promote this and cast vision forthis, but I only have 88 slots,
right.
We're a church of 1700 people.
There will be probably 11 or1200 adults on a Sunday, so Like
we can't have too many peoplewant to do it or we're just
(35:57):
going to frustrate them thatthis one life changing amazing
thing they can't have access tobecause really it's like limited
space.
So it's figuring out how tolaunch it with some energy and
some focus and some momentum,but not so much that it
overwhelms the thing.
So, for us, that's one of thereasons why we chose not to do a
sermon series about it.
Instead, as I'm preachingthrough first John, especially
(36:19):
in the next weeks leading up toit, there's really this like
emphasis on love.
Well, how are you going tolearn to love?
You've got to learn to seeJesus, right, so there's a way
to drip it and to integrate itinto the preaching.
So, anyway, long, long story,it's helpful case study.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I hope it's a helpful case study.
For me, it's helpful hearingabout it, the entire planning
and leading up to it.
In this case it sounded like itwas less intentional and it was
more providential, or evencoincidental, and it's like we
want to accelerate what we'reseeing in this other area.
But the point still goes if youhave a core values of your
(37:01):
church and you really want tolend support to that, you can
leverage the fall launch in away that is helpful to it,
whether it's something that'sbeen building for years or
something that it's like no,like, we need to hop on this bus
right now.
And the question then youmentioned this Am I going to do
a sermon series specificallyabout this, or am I going to be
(37:24):
intentional with dripping thisin whatever sermon series that
we're doing?
And I don't know that that'sthe only decision, but I think
that's a key decision.
And you said in this case,we're not doing a sermon series
because the opportunity is sonarrow only 88 slots.
When in the past have you madethe decision we are going to do
(37:46):
a sermon series or maybe we'regoing to have a lot more
influence on a Sunday, maybe abuilding campaign, etc.
Give me an example of theopposite, because we've made it
clear, you know why maybe youwouldn't do one.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, a building initiative would be one.
We've had times where we do ashort series related to
community and groups, and that'sa pretty common move that
people will make this time ofyear is to have a short series
on why we need connection, whywe need community, why we need
to be involved.
Those are the ones that I'vedone.
I mean, most of the time we arepreaching through books of the
(38:21):
Bible and we're kind of justplugging away through whatever
we're doing there.
But we'll think, okay, what'scoming up that we know we're
going to have to, you know, andwhat I'd say is like, if you can
, for me, this is just if I canget away with it and not have to
do a special sermon series onit.
I'd rather do that.
But I also think you know,depending on your church and
(38:45):
your environment and the way youdo series, you know if you're a
church, that's already.
You know already you're kind ofgo to as a three to six week
series and you're chunkingthrough three to six week series
throughout the year.
Well then, in that case I gowell, definitely, just tie some
series to whatever you're tryingto infuse energy.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
We started it off saying you know, teaching is
this essential tool in leading alocal congregation, and we've I
believe we've wrapped a lot offlesh around that, that it's not
everything revolves around theteaching, but it's more along
the lines of know that teachingis used to help us move along in
whatever we're doing as achurch.
It's, it's a vehicle for makingthat happen.
(39:26):
I think that's great.
The statement that the falllaunch is really about
everything outside of thepreaching.
But how does the preachinginfluence it?
I don't know that there's likea really clean bow.
We can wrap around this,because that is the case it's.
It really is lots of excitement, lots of momentum.
You kick off your midweekprograms.
That's always exciting.
(39:48):
One of the things that we do atour church in student
ministries, it's this fuseweekend.
It's where all of the sixthrough the 12th grade they get
together into these small groupsand then they go spend the
night at different, differenthomes of members in the church
and and folks in the south willknow that, as a D now weekend.
Okay, oh yeah, d now.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, that's the kind of same idea.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
So that's a big thing that we do and and one of the
things that's a value at ourchurch is really investing in
the next gen and making thatapparent and making that known.
Do we do a fuse Sunday afterthe fuse weekend?
Is there a fuse?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Well, the last session of fuse is the Sunday.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Sunday morning service right.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And we do it about a month into the school year.
So you're trying to get thosekids fused to the Lord and to
the church and the ministry.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
And so in it's really cool we change the entire
facility and the worship centerand, instead of doing things
where everyone faces the front,it's then done in the round for
now, for now, there we go, butit's it's.
It's a really unique thing thathappens, and so that's, you
know, something that we putenergy behind because we value,
(41:00):
you know, youth ministry and theyouth being connected, and it's
fun.
My, my son is now sixth grade,so he's real excited about doing
that and sure he's been joiningus in the Sunday morning
service.
We talk about that in one ofthe last season episodes, but
really, are there any finalthoughts that you have just
about fall launch and teachingas this tool to move and to grow
(41:21):
and to lead through whatever itis you're doing?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, I have two, two main thoughts on it.
One is someone might belistening to us going, well,
gosh, I don't, am I?
I don't have anything, I'mlaunching, I don't know, and I
think like that's maybe okay,but this is an opportunity to
think about.
Is there's because of thenatural momentum of this?
season this is an opportunity.
(41:46):
You don't have to go createsome new thing, you don't have
to create the C Jesus school,but you might say what's?
What's an area that we reallywant to breathe extra life into,
and so this is an opportunityto think about that.
Now, the second thing is theconverse of that, which is to
say that means you're going tonot give a lot of attention and
energy to everything else, whichmeans you're going to have to
(42:08):
disappoint a lot of your staffor your volunteers, or your
leaders right.
Because everyone is thinking, oh, this is the perfect time for
the pastor to help us havemomentum.
So, pastor, if you could makesure to say something about the
marriage ministry, and saysomething about the men's
ministry and the women'sministry, and the groups and the
compassion and the right.
And now you're like 17 minuteannouncements and it's in this
(42:32):
and this and this and this andthis and, like we talked about
earlier as a, as a marketer, asa communicator which is what you
are, dave like that's just arecipe for no one to really
respond to any of it, and so youdo have to have the discipline
to be able to say no, we'refocusing on this.
We're giving this, on purpose,disproportionate attention,
which means these other thingsare going to feel like they're
(42:54):
not as important because Rightnow they're not.
That's a hard thing, right,it's hard to.
It's not to say it's notimportant.
It's to say, right now we'refocusing on this.
But that's a key part of theleadership equation in this
process, or else the launch isgoing to be more of a lurch.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
So normally I'll let you have the last word, but I'm
going to take the last word.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, you should.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Because I actually have a solution, or at least a
potential solution, for whatyou're talking about.
Oh great, so let's say that youare launching.
This won't be hard for you.
You're launching a See Jesustype of initiative.
Well, you may not be able topromote all of these different
ministries, but what you coulddo is you could say, ok, we know
(43:41):
that this ministry hassomething really important
coming up.
We cannot give attention to thatbecause we're doing attention
to this.
However, what we could do is wecould find somebody in that
ministry who is really livingout or really experiencing one
of the main values that alignswith what it is we are doing,
and we could tell their storyand we could say you know, well,
(44:03):
belle's been a part of men'sfight club for X number of years
and one of the things that hecharacterizes is he has been
able to see Jesus form in thelives of these other men, and
how has that looked and what hasthat meant for you?
And how has that?
How has that?
How does your family see Jesusin you now?
And so, all of a sudden, it's apromotion for see Jesus, but
(44:27):
it's got this element of, andhe's been a part of the men's
fight club for the last year, orshe's been a part of the
women's ministry, or he's beenan intern in student ministries,
whatever the case might be.
But you can talk about the mainthing and just kind of pair it
up with elements of yourministry happening throughout
(44:48):
the church that tend to alignwith it, and it kind of makes
everybody happy.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yeah, Well, I love that and I love how I mean that
does.
That sounds even more cohesiveand yeah, that's really great.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
So thank you so much for listening.
Hope this is an encouragingconversation and, depending on
when you are listening to this,if you're not listening to this,
as you approach the fallkickoff early on in the episode
you said it, luke, like this isreally more about kicking off in
general, whenever that seasonof start, whenever that season
of initiative is.
(45:20):
It could be after Christmas, itcould be that last sprint
before graduation season comesin.
Whatever the case might be,look at what the natural ebbs
and flows of the calendar havefor your church, have in your
context, and look for ways tocapitalize on that.
You don't have to always createthe momentum.
(45:41):
In fact, you probably shouldn't.
It's exhausting to feel likeyou have to pull the yoke of the
entire church on your back andcarry it.
We don't want you to do that.
You're going to burn out.
You'll be good for no one, goodfor nothing.
Really, we want you to use thetools and the resourcing and the
calendar that's already therefor you so that you can launch
into a successful season ofwhatever it is God's calling
(46:04):
your church to be and to become.
Thank you for listening.
If you want to go over to iTunesor Spotify, leave a review.
We would love to hear from you.
If there's something you'd loveto talk more about, you can
reach out to us at info atfaithfulandfruitfulcom.
That goes to both Luke and to Iand we'll get back to you in
any way we can, whether it'spersonally getting back to you
(46:25):
or maybe we'll do an episode onit but we are here to resource
you.
You are not alone in thisministry that you are building.
You are not facing it all byyourself, and if we can be one
voice of encouragement in thatprocess, we would love it.
In the next episode we're goingto be talking more about what
we started this episode with theABCs of preaching, and you've
already kind of hinted it.
(46:46):
But just give us one morelittle taste.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
So that's your assumptions, your beliefs, your
convictions, what drives youwhen it comes to your preaching.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
All right, we'll talk about it next time.
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