July 19, 2024 • 58 mins
Unlock the secrets of minimalist training and transform your workouts with expert insights from Brett Jones, the StrongFirst Director of Education. This episode promises to reshape your understanding of exercise efficiency, revealing how focusing on key movements like cleans, presses, squats, snatches, swings, and get-ups can yield superior results over traditional bodybuilding methods. With Brett's extensive 22 years of kettlebell training and his commitment to the Iron and Cardio protocol, you'll gain a wealth of knowledge on achieving peak performance through a streamlined training approach.
Discover the vital differences between effort and intensity and learn how to tailor your workouts to your daily conditions. Brett breaks down the mathematical precision of intensity and the subjective nature of effort, offering practical advice on how to adapt your training to maintain consistency and avoid burnout. With wisdom on setting up safe training parameters and gradually escalating your intensity, this episode ensures you're on the path to a sustainable and injury-free workout regimen.
Explore the science of programming progression and performance optimization with Brett's detailed explanation of linear, step, and wave periodization methods. Understand the significance of variability and randomization in preventing training plateaus. We also dive into the balance between building and demonstrating strength, ensuring each session leaves you prepared for any challenge. This conversation is packed with actionable strategies that prioritize quality, consistency, and long-term success in your fitness journey. Tune in for an episode that promises to elevate your training to new heights.
Connect with Brett:
IG: @brettjonessfg
Episode 4: Strength, Fortitude and Fitness - An Inspiring Journey w/ Brett Jones
Website: https://appliedstrength.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tony Pascolla (00:00):
Today we have a very special guest returning to
the Primal Foundations podcastBrett Jones.
Brett is a certified athletictrainer, strength and
conditioning specialist and thestrong first director of
education.
You can check out Brett's firstappearance on the Primal
Foundations podcast in episodefour.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe benefits of minimalistic
training, optimizing performanceand examine various strength
(00:22):
training programs.
Sit back and enjoy the show.
Training, optimizingperformance and examine various
strength training programs.
Sit back and enjoy the show.
Welcome to the PrimalFoundations Podcast.
I'm your host, tony Pascola.
We will dive into what Ibelieve are the four central
foundations you need for ahealthy lifestyle Strength,
nutrition, movement and recovery.
Get ready to unlock your pathto optimal health and enjoy the
(00:46):
episode.
Brett Jones, welcome back tothe Primal Foundations podcast.
Brett Jones (00:53):
Tony.
Thank you, sir, Great to be onagain and look forward to our
conversation.
Tony Pascolla (00:57):
Absolutely, and we were talking kind of off air.
The last time you were on wasalmost a year ago.
Episode four, uh, and we'reback.
Brett Jones (01:06):
That seems impossible, but time keeps going
faster it always goes up, itnever goes down.
Tony Pascolla (01:16):
Today, one of the big concepts I want to talk
about is minimalist training.
I know you're a fan of it.
Uh, what are the coreprinciples of minimalist,
minimalist training and how knowyou're a fan of it?
What are the core principles ofminimalist training and how is
it different than yourtraditional?
You know body splits.
Can you kind of talk about thata little bit?
Brett Jones (01:35):
Absolutely so, and I've been reflecting on this a
little bit.
I was just at the PerformBetter in Chicago talking about
my last 22 years of travelingand teaching kettlebell training
and using kettlebells, and I'vebeen following my Iron and
Cardio protocol for the lastfour years.
What was the last program youfollowed for four years?
(01:57):
Right, you know, everybody inthe room is just like, uh, I
never.
So, yeah, I've been doing thesame thing for four years.
Um, now, within that same thing, um, I'll finish a workout and
have to go back six months tofind the last time I repeated
that exact workout.
So, yes, I'm doing a smallnumber of things I clean, I
(02:23):
press, I squat, I snatch and Iswing, I do some get-ups.
Does that sound like anythingwe've heard of before?
Maybe the SFG one?
So I have those six essentialskills that I've got plugged in
there and that's the nucleus ofmy training, the nucleus of my
(02:48):
training.
And so, within that, limitednumber of exercises and really
endless variation.
So minimalist training is allabout you have to accept the
fact that carryover is real,that you don't need to do
everything and that you can do alimited number of things and
get good at other things.
You know we've talked about ita long time in the strong first
(03:09):
universe the what the heckeffect.
You know I did swings and getups for six months and I pr'd my
pull-ups.
I haven't been trainingpull-ups, um, you know, I got my
one-armed push-up and I pr'd mymilk, my kettlebell military
press.
You know, just these carryoverthings that working on something
else I mean we have people thatuh, debbie hayes's article
that's going to come out, uh,this this week, like the single
(03:32):
leg deadlift was a big deal forher in keeping her military
press um, all of these thingsjust plugging some different
strength leaks and and shoringsome things up and and so
embracing this idea of carryover.
And I think that's one of thethings that when I work with
people you probably had the sameexperience.
They're trying to do everythingright.
(03:54):
They want to check all theboxes.
Well, if I can check one boxand get four, I'm going to do
the one thing.
I'm not going to try to do theother three or four things that
were on that list.
And that, to me, is kind of atthe heart of minimalist training
.
It is the minimum effectivedose.
It's doing the essentials andallowing for carryover to to
(04:19):
take place.
Tony Pascolla (04:20):
Now with people who want to do, you know, these
full push.
I'm doing a push-pull day, I'mdoing legs today, I'm doing my
deadlifting today andincorporating those specific
movements in the programming andhaving this seven or
(04:43):
six-day-a-week training, Do youfeel that, people, is that a
positive?
Is that a better than theminimal you know, or this
minimalist um training whereyou're only doing so much in a
very little amount of time?
Brett Jones (04:57):
Well, I mean, I let me preface, let me, uh, throw a
caveat in before I give myanswer.
Um, let me throw a caveat inbefore I give my answer.
Bodybuilders and a variety ofpeople have trained in a body
part split fashion for a longtime and if you want to be a
(05:23):
bodybuilder, if you have a veryaesthetic goal and you want to
be a bodybuilder, there's a wayto train for that.
Now, I think there's other waysto train for that, but their
body part splits come from thatphysique-based training world,
in my opinion.
So that's my caveat.
I don't even know how to thinkin a body part split.
It's been so long since I'veprogrammed myself or anybody
(05:44):
else in any sort of body partsplit fashion.
I'll create a B days, abc days,where we'll shift focus, and
that could be an iron cardio dayfollowed by a swing day and
just kind of a B sort ofsituation, sort of situation.
So I think that for 99% of thetrainees out there, you don't
(06:11):
need to split it up.
Full body training works.
Like I said, I don't even thinkbody parts right.
I haven't done a bicep curl,tricep extension.
I haven't isolated anything ina long time and I'm doing okay.
So it's one of those thingsthat and I think that's where
(06:32):
people get confused and peoplealso wait for the perfect
routine.
Right, I'm going to do X, y andZ, or I'm waiting for to put
this together, and, uh, an oldmilitary saying that, uh, an
imperfect plan executed wellwill be the perfect plan that's
(06:53):
never executed, um, because yourplan is going to change and
adapt anyway, so there is noperfect plan, and so, yeah, and
with minimalist training andthis is kind of the quote you've
had minimalist training checksall the boxes until it doesn't
(07:14):
yes.
Tony Pascolla (07:15):
So where do we come to incorporating your new
project Mind the Gap?
Brett Jones (07:23):
Absolutely your new project.
Mind the gap?
Absolutely.
So what I started to realizeand, like I said, I've been
following doing iron cardio forfour years now since I started
my training again, um, aftercancer treatment and um, what I
started to realize was I neededa little bit of single leg work.
I needed just a little bit ofuh work on uh shoulder stability
.
To keep things short up there,I needed a movement base that
(07:48):
would allow me to do a veryminimal routine.
And so when I say I only do theessential six, with a pretty
heavy focus on only three ofthose, I'm also a ground-based
warmup that takes me through alot of different postures and
positions and stretches andmobility drills.
(08:10):
You know I'm always keeping myankles, hips and T-spine um open
, um, and so mind the gap.
Is that, um, what do you needto what?
What's the spices and the andthe little things that you need
to sprinkle in in order to keepthe system balanced out?
I do a lot of symmetricalstance stuff, so having single
(08:33):
leg work in there is reallyimportant to make sure I'm
getting that 50-50 push and I'mnot becoming a 70-30 symmetrical
stance.
And so, yeah, it it's.
But how do you identify thosemovement gaps, stability gaps or
strength gaps, that, uh, thatcould influence your, your
training, and that's, that's thewhole idea behind mind.
(08:55):
The gap is um, and then how doyou make it efficient?
Because now we just opened upthat can of worms again.
Right now.
I'm not minimalist.
I've got these 15 things that Ineed to do.
Hang on, the ground-basedwarmup I do is less than five
minutes.
I'll spend three minutes on afoam roller.
If the first 15 to 30 minutesof your training session is foam
(09:19):
roller, you need to reevaluateyour relationship with that tool
.
Uh, it can be a very quickpiece of the puzzle.
The ground-based movementkeeping ankles, hips and T-spine
open super important.
Um, having some things in therelike arm bars, bent arm bars,
single leg deadlift, airbornepardon me, airborne lunge, um,
(09:41):
these are things that takeanother five to ten minutes.
Then I'm into my get-ups andand hitting everything that I
that I want to do.
Um, so it doesn't have tobecome all-consuming.
Uh, but a little bit of apreamble to the session to make
sure you've checked those boxesand and I refer to it in the
(10:03):
product, as you know, the what'syour canary in the coal mine.
So you can probably sit here andthink, tony, that, uh, there's,
there's something that seems tocome back.
Right, you take a little breakfrom training you have maybe
it's an ankle mobility, maybeit's t-spine, maybe it, maybe it
is single leg strength.
There's something that tends tocome back when you have a pause
(10:27):
in your training or a verystressful time, and that's your
canary in the coal mine.
I sit a lot, so hip mobility iskind of my canary in the coal
mine when I get tight in theanterior chain and I just know
that's going to cause problemsfor me.
Tony Pascolla (10:44):
So that's constantly something that I'm
keeping an eye on I I reallylike incorporating a lot of this
stuff in the beginning and I Igot mind the gap and I started
messing around with it.
You know, I've, you know,banged up shoulders, banged up
hips and I coach a lot of youthathletes as well and the big
(11:05):
things that I started doing isincorporating those movements in
their, in their warmups.
And specifically, I love the um, when we're talking about the
single leg work, the single leglunge with, with the row, with
the kettlebell, just with allthat stability on the leg and
just the, the demand that you'reputting on them and it's not a
big load, it's, you know, a 12kilo kettlebell, even sometimes
(11:29):
a little bit less, depending onwho they are.
That has, like, changed thegame for our kiddos and
especially bottoms up.
Um, pressing Right, it's.
That is a kryptonite for a lotof people, like, oh, I'm so
super strong I could press, orwhatever.
Okay, turn that sucker upside,upside down, and then we're
gonna see really out real quick.
Um, and it's actually it's.
(11:52):
We're in this minimalist thing,we want to hit those big six
like you were talking about.
But I feel like incorporatingthese movements gives just
enough variety to, you know, notget bored with it, even though
I can do the same workout allthe time, like you were talking
about, but it gives me a littlebit of a challenge to work on my
(12:13):
you know, broken arm bars, towork on my bottoms up game.
And especially you, you did thisvideo very recently.
I always do this.
I feel like every video thatI've ever seen of you, like
you've added this is, um, addinga kettlebell and doing those,
um, hip opening, um exercises inthe beginning of you know,
working the ankle first and thehip, those are.
(12:33):
Those are such game changersand you're getting into
positions that you're notnecessarily in.
And because we are very likebilateral, a lot of barbell
squat, you know, back squats, alot of goblet squats, single arm
squats that getting into thatsingle leg position and
isolating, um, some stability inthe shoulders is is huge.
And, like you said this, whatthe heck effect of I'm going to
(12:56):
start doing these other things.
And then, jesus, like, why ismy my get up so good?
Why is my you know press sogood, so good?
Brett Jones (13:04):
now, um, and sometimes you got to back off,
like you're saying, and not dothe thing to do the thing yeah,
I, I think it's, uh, thesprinkling those things in,
getting that little bit ofvariety, keeping the single leg,
the, the mobility, stabilityand strength gaps filled um, it
does, it checks a lot of boxesand it's a lot of fun.
(13:25):
And then you find those pinchpoints like the bottoms up press
, where I know somebody in thepast who this person was stuck
at about I don't know seven,either five or seven pull-ups,
and get into some bottoms uppressing and find out this this
was a, a lady who could bottomsup press 16 on one side but
(13:50):
couldn't even do the eight onthe other, got to the point
where it was 12 and 16 and sheknocked down like 10 or 12
pull-ups because if you thinkabout it, she's probably doing a
70 30 pull-up anyway.
And so balancing that strengthgap, um, allowed her to to
really get into the, the rest ofthe, the pull-ups, and have a
(14:12):
more symmetrical pull.
So I, I think it's, um, it's,it's definitely something.
And then you know, the carryover we're ultimately looking
for the athletes that you'reworking with um is to be
resilient, to handle theirtraining and their their playing
and perform well.
And you know, just it's, yeah,just balancing those, those
things out makes a hugedifference.
Tony Pascolla (14:34):
Yeah, and the single.
I just was on a podcast theother day and we just had like a
panel of a bunch of strongfirst coaches got on and the one
thing we were talking about is,hey, what's a must have in your
programs now, like like, what's, what's one of those like crux
pieces?
And I I say a lot like in thispast year, the athletes that
have been doing like airbornelunges, uh, lateral lunges,
(14:56):
everything single leg.
They move so much better intheir sport and they've even
noticed it too.
You know I've got kids that alot of them are very vain and
like in the aspect of, they wantto touch the rim or dunk.
And you know we'll work someplyometrics, we'll do the, you
know some deadlifting, jumping,whatever, um, but we do a lot of
single leg work and they'vecome back like man, I can get my
(15:18):
wrist into the, into the net,like I can get into the rim
almost now, and I couldn't evenbarely touch the rim.
I'm like dude, that is awesome.
So they do carry over and theywork.
People are moving way better.
So I love that.
Before we get into talking aboutsome training methodologies and
(15:40):
programming, I wanted to findthese two terms to help the
listeners kind of follow alongof intensity and effort.
You know, intensity from myunderstanding is, you know,
that's the percentages of ourfive rep max, one rep max of
where we're going, what thatweight's going to be, and the
effort is like, how hard am Iactually working where we?
(16:02):
We hear effort and intensity,we think the same thing.
Can you kind of elaborate alittle bit on that?
Brett Jones (16:07):
Well, I mean, you nailed it.
Uh, intensity is a is amathematical calculation, right,
it is.
It is based off your repetitionmax or your or your one rep max
, um, and it it's, it helpsguide your, it can help guide
your program.
So then, when we talk abouteffort and we do tend to confuse
(16:33):
these things we think intensityand we start thinking of the
turned around baseball cap fromover the top, great movie, Super
movie, a super movie, um, wethink about, you know, people
that are yelling and screamingand banging their head on the
bar, or you know, going tofailure as a, as a, you know a
marker of intensity, um,removing yourself from that
(16:56):
really helps.
So, effort, and we could look atthis from rpe, right, uh,
reading a perceived exertion, um, and rating and perceived
exertion, and there's a coupledifferent scales you can look at
here, originally developed tohelp guide cardiovascular work,
right, and so then we kind ofmodified it into a 10 point
scale.
That was a little easier forfolks to to manage and you know,
(17:19):
10 is as hard as you couldpossibly work.
If we look at that from astrength perspective, that is a
weight that you might have evenfailed to complete the lift
that's a 10,.
Right One is eh, I kind of triedFive, moderate effort and then
(17:40):
so we're really surfing thatfive to 10, five to eight If you
want to actually train well andhealthily, we're surfing that
five to eight continuum.
Another way to look at RP iswhen I'm doing a session and
let's say I'm doing a weightladder I did one the other day
(18:03):
double 32, 36 and 40, 36 and 40are single bells.
But do a set with a double 32,.
Do a set each arm at the 36,.
Do a set each arm at the 40.
There's lots of rest in there.
It's not as continuous as itsounds and I know I'm having a
great day when that 36 feelslike a 32.
That's a drop in RPE, right.
(18:25):
My rating and perceivedexertion at that load has
dropped.
And when the 40 feels like a 38, it's a good pressing day.
Now there's days where the 36absolutely feels like a 36 and
the 40 absolutely feels like a40.
So it's not where we can lookat intensity as a set
(18:45):
mathematical formula.
Effort in RPE is an ongoingconversation.
As we're progressing you'regoing to get things that drop in
RPE.
You might initially get into aworkout with, let's say, the 24
kilo and it's an eight.
It's an effort to get throughit.
Quality is still there.
You're not having a change inrep speed or tempo.
(19:08):
Um, you know, you're, you'regood, you know things have
gotten better.
When that rp is a six, you'relike that was easier, like I
could get through that, and, uh,I think I'm ready for more.
So so, mathematical formulaongoing conversation.
Tony Pascolla (19:33):
Do you feel, when you got clients or whatever, if
that RPE like they're doingsome sets and they're like, oh
damn, I'm struggling Cause I'vepicked up a 24 kilo and which is
not a huge bell for me, butsometimes either, my sleep at
wasn't great, I wasn't likehydrating very well.
Um, you know what have you?
Just life in general, I pick upa 24.
I'm like shit, this feels alittle bit heavier than I'm used
to.
Do you ever?
I feel like a lot of peoplecause it's programmed for the
day they want to do that.
(19:54):
Do you back them off and justbring a bell size down or bring
off the load or reps?
Brett Jones (19:59):
Absolutely Some combination of the above, and
one of the one of the biggestthings that I try to get my
students doing is understandingthat anything I ask them to do
is a suggestion or a guideline.
It's not a rule, nothing youhave to do.
My job is to set up theguardrails and let you ping
(20:19):
around in the guardrails.
Set up something that's safeand then, bing, bing, bing, bing
you can ping around withinthose guardrails and do what
works for the day.
The way I look at trainingright now is a consistency,
density, intensity.
So if I can get you consistentand I can increase the workload
we're accomplishing in a giventime, intensity will take care
(20:42):
of itself.
We'll get to intensity.
But people try to start withintensity and that's that's
problem, because you'll usuallyoverload the tissues too much,
so your load management goes offand that's.
You know, honestly, the if Iwere to ballpark, the biggest
problem in people's training istoo much, too soon.
(21:05):
That's just bad load management.
The other question I was askingfolks at Reform Better in
Chicago was how many of you areconstantly trying to figure out
how to recover from yourtraining, or constantly tweaked
or feeling like you're inflamedor whatever the case may be.
A bunch of hands went up.
I'm like, okay, here it is,you're doing too much.
(21:26):
Okay, but start there,forgetting Sarah Marshall, this,
but less right, and so if youstart with less, you'll build to
more.
But if you start with more, youusually end up trying to figure
out how to recover from yourtraining, and that's just.
That.
Shouldn't be the case.
Tony Pascolla (21:48):
We, or I clipped this from what you were on the
last podcast.
So one of the clips that I hadof you and I use this phrase all
the time because people ask methis and you've said it a bunch
of times so like, well, what'syour recovery strategy?
And you're like properprogramming, yeah, like we don't
have to get into all thesethings.
I was just in Austin at aconference and it was the hack
(22:09):
your health conference andliterally cause it used to be
keto con, they changed it tohack your health and you walk in
and it's literally red lighttherapy saunas, theraguns or
whatever and they got likemodels out there doing the whole
thing and I'm like, is thisreally what it's come to?
I think cold plunge Great.
You want to do saunas Amazing,but that is all supplemental
(22:35):
things versus I need this on theday-to-day.
Brett Jones (22:36):
If you need this on the day-to-day, so something's
wrong sleep, hydration,nutrition, stress, right, the
four horsemen of eitherimproving your health or taking
you in the other direction.
And so if we yeah, we'll evenshoot for the nah, it's not
going to do it.
But when, when somebody comesin and this is, you know, with
(23:01):
FMS's direction right now andthe Simeo app and work, sleep,
hydration, nutrition, stress.
So if you're not sleeping,you're not hydrated, your
nutrition sucks and your stressis through the roof.
And stress could berelationship stress, work stress
, health stress, any of those,yeah, it's going to
(23:27):
significantly impact what youcan do.
And so you know and Gray usedto talk about, in terms of the
said principle, specificadaptation to impose demands.
Right, well, it's theorganism's specific adaptations
to the environment's imposeddemands.
So if your mattress is bad,right, an environment problem.
And you're taking melatonin,it's not going to to help, right
(23:53):
, you got to change the mattress, so you have an environment
problem there.
But if, if you're um, if you'reum, having caffeine too late in
the day and it's impacting yourability to get into that first
sleep cycle, well, that's anorganism problem.
Right Now, we got to dosomething to tweak the organism
just a little bit, um, and so isthe problem that you're having
(24:15):
an environment problem or anorganism problem, because if you
can start making thosedecisions and clarifying where
do I actually need to put myattention, you'll start making
better decisions.
You'll change the mattressbecause it's an environment
problem and you'll quit takingthe melatonin because you know,
as we have joked for years,you're not sore because of an
(24:35):
advil deficiency, right, it's.
You're doing something to getsore.
Uh, you, bad technique, badmovement, too much.
You know some, some combinationthereof.
So do we have an organismproblem?
Do we have an environmentproblem?
And you know getting squaredaway with sleep, hydration,
nutrition and stress, thenputting proper programming on
(24:58):
top of that, man, you'd beamazed at where you can take
yourself.
But buying a five thousanddollar cold punch tank, uh,
might make it feel good, uh, forhaving put that thing in place.
I'm willing to bet there'ssomething in your sleep,
hydration, nutrition and stressthat would make a bigger change.
Tony Pascolla (25:19):
Easily easily and we're talking about proper
programmings and that's where Iwant to go.
Next is we have these differentideas and you see a lot of the
same common commonalities, likein America, social media.
We have, like most, a majorityof strength coaches are going to
(25:40):
be doing linear progressions.
Can you kind of talk aboutlinear versus like a step
cycling or a waving cycle?
Brett Jones (26:01):
cycle.
So linear is just like itsounds.
Now there are good linearprograms, so let me put that out
there first before I say thenext thing I'm going to say,
because nobody puts baby in acorner.
Only in business school do youhave continued linear progress
year over year, right.
And when you look at the stockmarket, yes, over time, to start
(26:21):
, the stock market looks likeit's up.
There's a lot of dips andvalleys in there, right.
So a linear program isbasically I'm going to go up
five pounds a week, right, andI'll work towards a new three to
five RM and I'll maybe test fora new one RM and then I'll
reset my numbers, maybe startingat 70%.
(26:43):
This was a lot of traditionalAmerican powerlifting followed,
kind of a linear periodizationthing.
Where do I want to be?
What's my 102 to 105% goal?
At my next meet set a new PR.
Right Now, I just workbackwards and I start eight to
12 weeks before I know that I'mgoing to go up five to 10 pounds
(27:06):
a week and I just you know Iwhich is going to have me
starting potentially at 65% ofmy projected that 102 to 105% RM
and that'll.
I count backwards and I just goup in those little increments
until I get to that goal.
So that's linear periodization.
(27:29):
Step, I think, is one that wewe're so convinced that we need
to microload and we need to makethese little progressions that
we miss out on the benefit ofstep progressions.
So step progressions, the theeasiest way I can and can
describe it is the oldkettlebell set, 22 plus years
ago.
(27:49):
When I got into this, you, youhad a 16, a 24 and a 32.
There were no tweeners, thatwas it.
So if you got a traditional setand you're like 16 is easy, I
can press the 24.
32 is not budget.
Well, you didn't.
You went and pressed the 24 alot and then you could press the
(28:11):
32.
So that's step loading in anutshell.
Uh, step loading is you aregoing to make a jump up.
Uh, so we're not.
Now we're not doing a littlefive pound, ten pound
incremental movement over alinear progression.
Now we're saying I'm going tostart at x and I'm going to
train at x for three or fourweeks.
(28:33):
Now I'm going to make a 20, 25pound jump or a kettlebell size,
whatever the implement.
Now I'm going to train at thatload for three to four weeks,
make another jump, train at thatload.
So now we're taking steps, butthe important piece there is I'm
(28:56):
staying at that load forupwards of four weeks, if not a
little bit longer.
And that sounds like peoplehear that.
They're like what are youtalking about?
You can't stay at the same loadfor four weeks.
It's like, yeah, you, you can.
Um, and the reason is when,when you look at periodization,
(29:16):
the reason a mesocycle willtypically be about four to six
weeks in length is we know thefirst two weeks are neural,
primarily neurologicaladaptation.
Then we have a stabilization ofthose initial gains and tissue
adaptation.
So the reason you want toeither stay on a routine, a
(29:37):
mesocycle, for four to six weeksor do a step cycle that's about
three to four weeks in length,is we're getting past that
initial neurological gain, we'regetting to the stabilization of
those gains and we're gettingtissue adaptation.
The third and probably one ofthe more challenging types of
programming to really do well iswave.
(29:58):
So now we're waving up andstepping down, waving up and
stepping down, and so that mightlook like maybe over the course
of a three to four week periodyou're going from 100 to 110,
120, 130, 140.
Now we're stepping back down to110, 120, 130, 140, 150.
(30:19):
Now we're stepping down right.
So now we're waving up andcoming back down purposefully.
Um, there is an allure to onceyou reach the peak of that wave,
you want to stay there.
That's where the problemsusually start, right, and I've
had a lot of people like, ah,you know, I finally I could
(30:40):
press, you know, the 36 kilobell and so I'm gonna, that's
where I'm gonna live.
Now I'm like whoa, whoa, don'tforget what got you there.
What got you there was the 28and the 32.
Like the 36 is now.
I like to refer to it.
It's almost like familiar orfamily sort of situation.
My kettlebell wife is my 32kilo.
(31:03):
That's my ride or die.
Like I can pick that thing up,I can have a great workout.
It's always going to be there.
It's consistent.
I feel like I could, if you'vestuck me in a room and said,
well, you could stick me in aroom with a 16 kilo and I'll
still come out strong and fit,but I'd rather it be a 32.
So stick me in a room with onebell, put me in a trip where I
(31:26):
can only take one bell.
It's going to be a 32.
Um, I visit the 36 pretty often.
Um, are like the, the in-lawsthat you visit, and this, these
are the good in-laws, right,where you don't mind visiting.
And you, you do that prettyoften.
I lived in my first marriage.
I lived down the street from myin-laws.
It was a frequent visit.
(31:46):
The 40 kilo for me is a.
That's the weird uncle that Ionly visit every now and then.
Right, that's the weird unclethat I only visit every now and
then.
Right, that's the black sheepof the family we just visit
every now and then.
Um, that is a more of a how Idemonstrate my progress, not how
I build my progress.
So I will wave those weights asI train.
So essentially linear, justlike it sounds step.
(32:10):
Just like it sounds Step.
Just like it sounds Wave.
Build it, step back before youfall down and work your
progression that way.
Tony Pascolla (32:21):
I like the step cycling and the wave cycling and
it's hard for people tounderstand because, you're right
, when they get to that one topweight they're like, oh man,
like I could just go up fromhere.
I'm so strong, like.
But the way that I understandit is that adaption period, like
your muscles are going to startto adapt but your ligaments and
(32:43):
your tissues and your nervoussystem are going to kind of
trail a little bit.
And if you don't stay there andthe weight isn't moving very
well, everything if you justkeep going there's no upside.
I feel like you're just goingto get hurt and then you're
going to take three months, ifnot worse, off of your training.
But it's really hard for peopleto just wrap their heads around
(33:06):
that more isn't better.
Brett Jones (33:09):
Yeah, it's coming back to the kind of the
kettlebell uh conversation wheremaybe you got that traditional
set.
You're just you're justpressing the 24.
Well, what you're going to endup doing is a little higher
volume, right, and now we getthat tissue adaptation,
everything's ready.
We neurologically groove thatpattern.
24 ends up feeling prettygroovy, pretty easy, right, and
(33:34):
then all of a sudden the 32 goesup.
Don't forget what got you there.
It was the easier work for alittle bit of volume and density
that got you to that heavierweight.
Now you can start sprinkling inthat 32 a little more often so
that you start building thecapacity there.
But there is a differencebetween what builds your
(33:54):
strength and how you demonstrateyour strength, and we tend to
confuse those.
We want to always go in anddemonstrate our strength and
forgetting what actually allowedus to build that strength.
So I think that might be a goodway to kind of phrase things.
(34:15):
So when you hit the peak andyou demonstrated progress,
that's all you did.
You demonstrated what got youthere was all that work you did
to build towards it.
So demonstrate it.
Awesome, I get it.
Step back down, wave it backback up again, and so there are
weights you visit.
Tony Pascolla (34:35):
There's weights you live with and demonstrate
versus build this um, when wetalk about volume and intensity,
right with, if we start to pushthe volume up right, more you
know, more sets, more reps we'regetting a lot more time working
with the skill we have to backoff that intensity and then,
(34:57):
vice versa, if we're going tostart pushing that up, the
volume has got to go down, right, yeah.
Brett Jones (35:04):
Yes, yes, yes, because when you look at
PlanStrong and BuiltStrong,where Pavel and Fabio have
innovated, I mean it's some ofthe best programming information
that's out there.
In traditional training, volumeand down, intensity goes down,
(35:25):
volume goes up, and there's alot of traditional powerlifting,
cycling and things that usethat coupled volume and
intensity.
It is a way to do it, nothingwrong with it, right, but you
can program so that you uncouplethose things.
You can have high volume, highintensity days, you can have low
(35:45):
volume, low intensity days andevery permutation in between.
So now your programming justexploded open, right it is.
It is a main, like Fabio is andPavel are like they do math.
Tony Pascolla (36:00):
I don't, I don't do math.
Brett Jones (36:01):
Right, I have a hard enough time just doing tick
marks on my in my thing.
And that was actually funny.
One of the I'm headed down toCosta Rica and to teach, and
Victor Carrillo, our instructordown there.
I was telling him some some ofwhat I was doing with my, with
my iron cardio work, and he'slike you did what.
He's like, do you realize whatyou did?
I'm like no, do you realizewhat you did?
(36:22):
I'm like no, he's like you did120 presses in like you know 35
minutes.
I'm like yeah, he's like that'smost people's NL for the month.
You did it in a day in about 40minutes, 30, 40 minutes.
He's like what are you doing?
I'm like I don't know training.
I didn't think about it thatway.
(36:42):
Then I started doing the mathand I'm like I'm having 240, 300
rep sessions of clean press andsquat and snatch and you know
different variations.
So but when you, when youuncouple volume and intensity,
you have to be your programminghas to be pretty dialed in, but
now, like the programmingoptions just explode open.
(37:04):
You've got so many differentthings and one of the keys to
that is never training tofailure and always you always
keep reps in the back and whenyou look at velocity-based
(37:31):
research and there was a goodstudy on a six by four protocol,
um, that, um, uh, was wasreally interesting.
Um, so you, you take a whatever, an 8rm, and you're going to do
, like a six sets of fourinstead of three sets of eight.
You know, usually we would takethat 8rm and we push it right,
we're gonna have we gotta goclose to failure.
No, you don't.
Um, so you know, having that andthe velocity-based research
kind of validates that, there'ssome research that Dan I believe
(37:52):
it was Dan Baker had out thatyou know, stopping at a velocity
drop of I think it was 20% andor doing sets of four versus
sets of eight with that same,similar sort of intensity.
The group that was stopping atsets of four or the velocity
drop, ready to train again andrecovered in 24 hours.
(38:12):
The group that was pushing forthe three sets of eight and not
ignoring the velocity drop 72hours before they were recovered
and ready to train again.
I know which one I choose.
Tony Pascolla (38:22):
So yeah, so yeah, some options there.
And then a lot of times peopledo the variable training with
the dice right To give this, youknow, and that's, you know,
muscle confusion, whatever itmay be, but that's you'll have
like a high intensity and a highvolume day and you're like
Jesus and then, but you'll,you'll randomly get a low
(38:44):
intensity, low volume day, andit just kind of keeps you
guessing and which is kind offun too, just to like throw that
in there.
Brett Jones (38:50):
Exactly.
Um, it's not random acts ofvariety, it's randomization with
a purpose.
Right, because now if we, if weare going to follow sort of a
more minimalist routine, or youknow, we're just doing swings
and get ups Now when we plug inthis randomization I joked for
years you can do the same thingevery day.
As long as you don't do thesame thing every day.
(39:11):
I love oxymoronic statements,so you know, if you're just
doing the same thing every day,yeah, that's, you're going to
stagnate if we create thisrandomization and this
variability within that standardthing.
You know, the programmingoptions not only open up, but
(39:31):
progress is I don't want to sayinsured, but yeah, I'll say
insured.
Tony Pascolla (39:39):
And we're talking about the programming and I
want to talk about some, youknow, methodologies to optimize
performance and, specifically,and I want to talk about some
methodologies to optimizeperformance and specifically,
and again, I have a veryrudimentary understanding of
this, but I feel like it'simportant to talk about the
difference between lacticthreshold training is like
you're pushing yourself in orderto have a higher threshold for
(40:10):
buildup of lactic acid and youcontinuously train at a very
high intensity to do that,whereas anti-glycolytic is,
we're not producing as much orwe're in it is not as fast.
What are the kind of thedifferences of that?
And like, how, how does thathelp you in your training?
Like, what do you choose?
Brett Jones (40:33):
So I would.
I would put it in these termscapacity versus tolerance.
So the traditional lacticthreshold training is all about
tolerance.
Can you take the burn Like can,can you suffer through the
accumulation of this and and thethe way it bogs down power
production, energy productionand really everything?
(40:55):
So can you tolerate the burn?
And that's that's the waytraining has been done for for a
long time.
Well, the the the opposite ofthat is can we increase our
capacity to handle the wasteproducts and the way energy
production works, so that wehave a more efficient system?
And so now we can performbetter.
(41:16):
Working your capacity, you'llbring up your tolerance and your
capacity.
Working on your tolerance, justbuild your tolerance and your
capacity.
Working on your tolerance, justbuild your tolerance.
But we like the tolerance styletraining because it sucks, it's
hard, it burns, you sweat, it'sdifficult.
(41:37):
That must have been effective.
When you're working to buildcapacity, you're going to get
just enough of a response togive your system something to
clear and then let it clear,give it the rest it needs in
order to clear those wasteproducts.
And so better recovery, betterhealth, better a lot of good
(41:59):
benefits on the capacity side ofthings.
And so do we need to do someglycolytic peaking if we have an
event coming up?
Absolutely, if I'm going to getready for a snatch test, I know
that I can ramp glycolytically,because a five-minute snatch
test is glycolytic, there's noavoiding it.
(42:20):
Right?
I'm going to do some glycolytictraining in order to peak for
that snatch test, right?
So glycolytic peaking is prettyquick.
It's three to four weeks.
Three to five weeks you can beat a glycolytic peak and have
(42:43):
that lactic threshold push andbe ready for the event.
Tony Pascolla (42:49):
But to train like that for an extended period of
time it's just too high of acost on the body.
Yeah, you mentioned somethingtoo of we train at those high
intensities because it sucks,and you're right.
What is the cost?
I, I go to a box gym that it'slike it's pretty cross-fitty,
it's just the community is great, everybody's awesome there and
just to have people to trainwith.
But most of the people want toat the end of their workout,
(43:11):
want to be on the floor.
They want to be on the floorand I'm just like give a high
five, say good job, good job,and I and it's a little bit, you
have to kind of take an egocheck and you you can't take the
prescribed workout to heartbecause, like if you need to
punch the clock and you're notmaking the time, like stop
punching the clock, like takesome rest, but that it's such a
(43:34):
hard thing for people to getaround because they'll do this
anti-glycolytic work and feelgreat.
And I just had my friend Nathanon the podcast and he has the
best saying.
I just had my friend Nathan onthe podcast and he has the best
saying.
I think he stole it fromsomebody, but he talks about how
he goes when I leave mytraining sessions.
If I get cornered in the alleyand I need to get into a fist
fight, I can do it.
He's like if I walk out and Iget cornered in the alley and he
(43:57):
goes there ain't no way I'mgoing to fight my way out of
this.
He goes.
Brett Jones (44:01):
I train too hard, yeah there's a I think it was
Earl Lederman, an old timestrongman, who said at the, at
the, at the finish of yourtraining, you should feel ready
to battle for the kingdom, notlike the war was lost.
Well, that's a good one too.
Yeah, same same idea, same samevein of vein of thought.
There, you know, it comes backa little bit to that build
(44:23):
versus demonstrate sort ofconcept.
It comes back a little bit tothat build versus demonstrate
sort of a concept.
If every workout is youdemonstrating how far you can
push, that's not building,that's demonstrating.
So, you know, separate yourtraining.
Are there times where we wantto demonstrate, where we are
Absolutely.
That's not every session, right, it's.
(44:45):
There are sessions we're goingto do to build, have a
demonstration, go back tobuilding and have a
demonstration.
So, um, you know you, you need,realistically, uh, there are
times where you need that push,that push, uh, and that
demonstration of where you are,uh can be very helpful with your
(45:05):
training.
Um, so, but we only want to doit periodically.
Um, we want to have morebuilding workouts than
demonstration workouts.
Tony Pascolla (45:16):
Let's take that to your, your iron cardio Cause.
Like for most of the listenersyou know, the iron cardio is a
single arm, clean, a press squatwith some add ons of you know,
pushups, snatches, pull ups.
But can you talk about how, howshould you be progressing that
Like?
Is there a threshold of, likehow many sets or reps you should
(45:40):
be doing within this ironcardio?
Brett Jones (45:42):
So my general metric is if you can double the
time and sets so let's say youset a clock for 20 minutes and
you can do more than 40 sets youprobably need a more
challenging variation or aheavier load.
Like you need to imposesomething into that that uh
workout or session that that hasyou wanting to rest more
(46:06):
between sets.
So, uh, with double bells, Ithink it's a set about every 45
seconds.
If you can do greater than that, probably need a more
challenging uh variation or aheavier load.
Um, so that metric seems tohave worked out pretty well over
the last little bit here.
And, yeah, rest is the mostabused training variable.
(46:32):
We just don't want to rest.
When you look at elite sprintersDerek Toshner, who was an NCAA
champ and has competed at veryhigh levels, you know, has
competed at very high levels um,they would run a sprint, one
about every 15 minutes.
(46:52):
Wow, that is how they built thecapacity to demonstrate their
speed when they raced, right.
So, um, now were they laying ona couch for the 15 minutes in
between sprints?
No, they were doing a littlebit of stretching, a little bit
of movement, a little.
You know, there were littlethings that they were doing, but
they ran a sprint about every15, 10 to 15 minutes.
(47:16):
It is the difference betweenrepeats versus intervals.
Uh, intervals don't care, theclock's going to go ding, you
need to go.
Your performance can bedropping, your quality can drop,
you're, you're not able to dowhat you did the first time,
right?
I'm going to make up numbershere.
Okay, so let's say we're doing200 meter intervals and we set
(47:38):
up and again making up numbershere Uh, we set up a 40 second
interval where every 40, youknow, know you're gonna run a
240 seconds and you're gonnarest 40 seconds.
You're gonna do that again.
That's your interval.
Well, you might make the 200meters for the first two to
three times.
(48:00):
By the time you get to thefourth or fifth interval, you're
probably only going to coverabout 150 meters.
By the time that 40 seconds isup, your performance is dropping
.
You are training yourself toget slower.
You're not helping yourself,right?
But the clock doesn't care,clock's going to go ding, you
need to go.
This is intense, this sucks, itburns, this is great.
No, it's not.
(48:20):
You're training yourself to beslower.
You're training yourself tohave lower quality.
It's not the way you want to doit.
Repeats mean you can cover thatsame 200 meters at the same
pace every time, and as soon asyou are not able to repeat that
effort, the session is done.
In fact, I would say, when youthink you can't repeat that time
(48:42):
and effort in the that uh, timeand effort, um.
In the next interval, the next,repeat, you're done.
Don't wait for the performanceto drop.
Tony Pascolla (48:52):
Most of us need to we're going to take a shot at
it.
Brett Jones (48:57):
Right, right, and then like, oh yeah, I should
have stopped at the one before.
Um, so yeah, I think if, ifpeople thought more about
repeating effort and that'sreally what I'm doing in Iron
Cardio I want that clean to becrisp, I want that press to feel
the same speed, same strength.
I want that squat to feel goodIf I'm throwing a snatch in.
(49:17):
I want that snatch to just bepowerful to the top.
If I get my pace too fast, Istart losing quality.
Clean is just a little bit off.
That press slows down a little.
All of I start losing quality.
Clean is just a little bit off.
That press slows down a little.
All of those things start tohappen.
If we kept that quality andthat concept of repeating not
intervaling, but repeating thesame quality, strength, power,
(49:41):
effort training would bedifferent.
Tony Pascolla (49:45):
You're saying when should people start to look
to make a jump?
Like how long cause your yoursessions, like they're timed
right?
You, you started at a certaintime and then you get to another
time and then you change it.
So when should we be makingjumps of bell sizes?
Is it by the time or is it justkind of how we're feeling?
Brett Jones (50:04):
It's a little bit of both.
So what for my personaltraining?
I tend to do more, um, I I callit work constrained.
So I've been focused right nowon like 40 set sessions.
Um, I've experimented like Ithink 50 and 60 is.
That's a big effort that'sgoing to take a little more time
(50:25):
to recover from.
I think 20 to 30 is a good kindof lower um, lower effort or
maintenance sort of effort.
40 sets might be the idealnumber.
Um, that's what I'm sayingtoday.
I might say something differentnext year.
Um, but, and then how long doesit take me to get those 40 sets
done?
But, and then how long does ittake me to get those 40 sets
(50:47):
done?
So I define the number of setsI'm going to do.
The time is variable and thatvaries on the weight and or the
load that I'm using, thevariation of iron cardio that
I'm doing, other factors likethat.
But I still use that if I candouble the time in sets.
(51:07):
So for that 40 sets if I'm sub20 minutes it's too easy.
I need a more challengingvariation.
So I think that metric stillholds.
Tony Pascolla (51:17):
Gotcha, and so you're doing 20 on the left, 20
on the right, and if you'regetting right to that 40 minutes
, you're in the sweet spot.
Brett Jones (51:27):
Sweet spot to just a little too much, a little too
fast.
And again, I want to build tothe point where I can
demonstrate that 40 sets in sub20 minutes and then know that
it's time to change what I'mdoing a little bit.
And there's nothing wrong somedays just having a um Jeff
(51:50):
Martone used to call it a killerworkout.
Keep it light and happy.
Um.
So I love oxymoronic things, soI love the idea that killer
means keep it light and happy.
Tony Pascolla (52:01):
Um, they're going to say like oh go, full clip,
Exactly.
Brett Jones (52:05):
No, no, Keep it light and happy.
So there's days where thatlight and happy session is
exactly what you want to do.
Tony Pascolla (52:14):
So yeah, awesome.
Yeah, I love the Iron Cardio.
I try to incorporate it.
I feel like I move very wellwith uh with it, and it's just
another thing.
Tool of training.
Do I use barbells?
Absolutely, um, but I just feellike I can move a little bit
better and feel really goodafter my sessions.
(52:36):
What's coming up next for you?
Are you got?
I know you just were doing someperform better conferences.
Anything else coming up, uh,either seminars or um projects?
Oh gosh.
Brett Jones (52:48):
Um, uh, I'm traveling and teaching basically
every other weekend through, uh, september.
Um, so, um, I got a lot of SFGones and an SFG two coming up.
Um, some workshops um got, uh,I have started doing some iron
cardio workshops.
So before the SFG two in DenverI've got an iron cardio
(53:08):
workshop coming up that daybefore.
So, yeah, it's a lot coming up.
I can't get to the point whereI can get the next project ready
because I've got too much goingon at the moment and so, yeah,
it's so very busy.
The next I would say the nextproject hasn't revealed itself
(53:32):
to me yet.
And you know, iron Cardiorevealed itself pretty, pretty
quickly as something that I wasgoing to be able to to, to write
on and do a project on, able touh to, to write on and do a
project on mind.
The gap came very naturallybecause it built out of this
minimalist training andrealizing, yeah, I got to go
back and fill a couple of gapshere.
(53:52):
Um, so the next project kind ofhasn't revealed itself.
Tony Pascolla (53:57):
Um yeah, one thing I want to ask you about,
and I was just curious aboutthis doing the iron cardio
seminars or sessions at performbetter uh, do is it.
Just is it different?
You know, because that'sperform better is a bunch of
different people from in theindustry coming in where, if
you're doing like a iron cardioat a strong first, like they're
(54:19):
picking up what you're puttingdown, do you feel like there was
like a transition?
People kind of got it orthey're just kind of like whoa,
this is so above and beyond.
I have no idea.
Brett Jones (54:29):
No, it was a good response.
It was a good response and Ithink people were curious,
curious about it.
I also like to think that thatI'm a good example of what this
training has and can do, and sothere's a little proof in the
pudding, uh, for for the personwho's standing in front of you
saying this is something youmight like to try, um, and you
(54:51):
can kind of get the idea that,yeah, it looks like it's, it
looks like it's working, so, um,I so, yeah, but it was, it was
a good response, and the performbetter crowd is.
It is interesting because it is, uh.
I like to refer to the summitsas like the, uh, the fitness
buffet.
Um, you can go sample a lot ofdifferent things and get a lot
(55:13):
of different ideas, and and Ithink that's the way to look at
it You're getting an idea thatyou're then going to want to go
deeper into.
Uh, or maybe you go to a talkand you're like no, not for me,
um's, you know, that's the waythat that usually goes.
Tony Pascolla (55:29):
Well, thanks for coming on and for those that are
listening.
You know, check out Mind, theGap, iron Cardio, and where can
people find your information,brett?
Brett Jones (55:39):
So Instagram is probably one of the better ways.
So, brett Jones SFG, uh on uhInstagram.
Uh, my website appliedstrengthcom.
Um strong first, doing moresocial media and things through
functional movementcom.
Um hashtag, move with FMS.
Um hashtag, be strong first.
(56:01):
There you go.
Hashtag iron cardio Um so um.
Last last thing, real quick,cause I think this has been a
question uh sometimes with uhthe anti-glycolytic training.
Um kind of defining that just alittle bit more, um, and and
maybe just saying we realize allthree energy systems go at the
same time.
(56:21):
Right, there's, there's no wayto say we're anti, we're never
going glycolytic.
In fact, if you look at Quickand the Dead, we want to go a
little glycolytic but then haveenough time to recover.
So, digging into theanti-glycolytic mindset just a
little bit further, maybe afuture podcast, there we go,
(56:42):
part number three.
Tony Pascolla (56:43):
Exactly.
Thanks again for coming on andthank you for everybody
listening to the primalfoundations podcast.
Thank you all for joining us.
If you enjoyed this episode,don't forget to subscribe, like
and share.
See you all next time on theprimal foundations podcast.
Today we have a very special guest returning to
the Primal Foundations podcastBrett Jones.
Brett is a certified athletictrainer, strength and
conditioning specialist and thestrong first director of
education.
You can check out Brett's firstappearance on the Primal
Foundations podcast in episodefour.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe benefits of minimalistic
training, optimizing performanceand examine various strength
(00:22):
training programs.
Sit back and enjoy the show.
Training, optimizingperformance and examine various
strength training programs.
Sit back and enjoy the show.
Welcome to the PrimalFoundations Podcast.
I'm your host, tony Pascola.
We will dive into what Ibelieve are the four central
foundations you need for ahealthy lifestyle Strength,
nutrition, movement and recovery.
Get ready to unlock your pathto optimal health and enjoy the
(00:46):
episode.
Brett Jones, welcome back tothe Primal Foundations podcast.
Brett Jones (00:53):
Tony.
Thank you, sir, Great to be onagain and look forward to our
conversation.
Tony Pascolla (00:57):
Absolutely, and we were talking kind of off air.
The last time you were on wasalmost a year ago.
Episode four, uh, and we'reback.
Brett Jones (01:06):
That seems impossible, but time keeps going
faster it always goes up, itnever goes down.
Tony Pascolla (01:16):
Today, one of the big concepts I want to talk
about is minimalist training.
I know you're a fan of it.
Uh, what are the coreprinciples of minimalist,
minimalist training and how knowyou're a fan of it?
What are the core principles ofminimalist training and how is
it different than yourtraditional?
You know body splits.
Can you kind of talk about thata little bit?
Brett Jones (01:35):
Absolutely so, and I've been reflecting on this a
little bit.
I was just at the PerformBetter in Chicago talking about
my last 22 years of travelingand teaching kettlebell training
and using kettlebells, and I'vebeen following my Iron and
Cardio protocol for the lastfour years.
What was the last program youfollowed for four years?
(01:57):
Right, you know, everybody inthe room is just like, uh, I
never.
So, yeah, I've been doing thesame thing for four years.
Um, now, within that same thing, um, I'll finish a workout and
have to go back six months tofind the last time I repeated
that exact workout.
So, yes, I'm doing a smallnumber of things I clean, I
(02:23):
press, I squat, I snatch and Iswing, I do some get-ups.
Does that sound like anythingwe've heard of before?
Maybe the SFG one?
So I have those six essentialskills that I've got plugged in
there and that's the nucleus ofmy training, the nucleus of my
(02:48):
training.
And so, within that, limitednumber of exercises and really
endless variation.
So minimalist training is allabout you have to accept the
fact that carryover is real,that you don't need to do
everything and that you can do alimited number of things and
get good at other things.
You know we've talked about ita long time in the strong first
(03:09):
universe the what the heckeffect.
You know I did swings and getups for six months and I pr'd my
pull-ups.
I haven't been trainingpull-ups, um, you know, I got my
one-armed push-up and I pr'd mymilk, my kettlebell military
press.
You know, just these carryoverthings that working on something
else I mean we have people thatuh, debbie hayes's article
that's going to come out, uh,this this week, like the single
(03:32):
leg deadlift was a big deal forher in keeping her military
press um, all of these thingsjust plugging some different
strength leaks and and shoringsome things up and and so
embracing this idea of carryover.
And I think that's one of thethings that when I work with
people you probably had the sameexperience.
They're trying to do everythingright.
(03:54):
They want to check all theboxes.
Well, if I can check one boxand get four, I'm going to do
the one thing.
I'm not going to try to do theother three or four things that
were on that list.
And that, to me, is kind of atthe heart of minimalist training
.
It is the minimum effectivedose.
It's doing the essentials andallowing for carryover to to
(04:19):
take place.
Tony Pascolla (04:20):
Now with people who want to do, you know, these
full push.
I'm doing a push-pull day, I'mdoing legs today, I'm doing my
deadlifting today andincorporating those specific
movements in the programming andhaving this seven or
(04:43):
six-day-a-week training, Do youfeel that, people, is that a
positive?
Is that a better than theminimal you know, or this
minimalist um training whereyou're only doing so much in a
very little amount of time?
Brett Jones (04:57):
Well, I mean, I let me preface, let me, uh, throw a
caveat in before I give myanswer.
Um, let me throw a caveat inbefore I give my answer.
Bodybuilders and a variety ofpeople have trained in a body
part split fashion for a longtime and if you want to be a
(05:23):
bodybuilder, if you have a veryaesthetic goal and you want to
be a bodybuilder, there's a wayto train for that.
Now, I think there's other waysto train for that, but their
body part splits come from thatphysique-based training world,
in my opinion.
So that's my caveat.
I don't even know how to thinkin a body part split.
It's been so long since I'veprogrammed myself or anybody
(05:44):
else in any sort of body partsplit fashion.
I'll create a B days, abc days,where we'll shift focus, and
that could be an iron cardio dayfollowed by a swing day and
just kind of a B sort ofsituation, sort of situation.
So I think that for 99% of thetrainees out there, you don't
(06:11):
need to split it up.
Full body training works.
Like I said, I don't even thinkbody parts right.
I haven't done a bicep curl,tricep extension.
I haven't isolated anything ina long time and I'm doing okay.
So it's one of those thingsthat and I think that's where
(06:32):
people get confused and peoplealso wait for the perfect
routine.
Right, I'm going to do X, y andZ, or I'm waiting for to put
this together, and, uh, an oldmilitary saying that, uh, an
imperfect plan executed wellwill be the perfect plan that's
(06:53):
never executed, um, because yourplan is going to change and
adapt anyway, so there is noperfect plan, and so, yeah, and
with minimalist training andthis is kind of the quote you've
had minimalist training checksall the boxes until it doesn't
(07:14):
yes.
Tony Pascolla (07:15):
So where do we come to incorporating your new
project Mind the Gap?
Brett Jones (07:23):
Absolutely your new project.
Mind the gap?
Absolutely.
So what I started to realizeand, like I said, I've been
following doing iron cardio forfour years now since I started
my training again, um, aftercancer treatment and um, what I
started to realize was I neededa little bit of single leg work.
I needed just a little bit ofuh work on uh shoulder stability
.
To keep things short up there,I needed a movement base that
(07:48):
would allow me to do a veryminimal routine.
And so when I say I only do theessential six, with a pretty
heavy focus on only three ofthose, I'm also a ground-based
warmup that takes me through alot of different postures and
positions and stretches andmobility drills.
(08:10):
You know I'm always keeping myankles, hips and T-spine um open
, um, and so mind the gap.
Is that, um, what do you needto what?
What's the spices and the andthe little things that you need
to sprinkle in in order to keepthe system balanced out?
I do a lot of symmetricalstance stuff, so having single
(08:33):
leg work in there is reallyimportant to make sure I'm
getting that 50-50 push and I'mnot becoming a 70-30 symmetrical
stance.
And so, yeah, it it's.
But how do you identify thosemovement gaps, stability gaps or
strength gaps, that, uh, thatcould influence your, your
training, and that's, that's thewhole idea behind mind.
(08:55):
The gap is um, and then how doyou make it efficient?
Because now we just opened upthat can of worms again.
Right now.
I'm not minimalist.
I've got these 15 things that Ineed to do.
Hang on, the ground-basedwarmup I do is less than five
minutes.
I'll spend three minutes on afoam roller.
If the first 15 to 30 minutesof your training session is foam
(09:19):
roller, you need to reevaluateyour relationship with that tool
.
Uh, it can be a very quickpiece of the puzzle.
The ground-based movementkeeping ankles, hips and T-spine
open super important.
Um, having some things in therelike arm bars, bent arm bars,
single leg deadlift, airbornepardon me, airborne lunge, um,
(09:41):
these are things that takeanother five to ten minutes.
Then I'm into my get-ups andand hitting everything that I
that I want to do.
Um, so it doesn't have tobecome all-consuming.
Uh, but a little bit of apreamble to the session to make
sure you've checked those boxesand and I refer to it in the
(10:03):
product, as you know, the what'syour canary in the coal mine.
So you can probably sit here andthink, tony, that, uh, there's,
there's something that seems tocome back.
Right, you take a little breakfrom training you have maybe
it's an ankle mobility, maybeit's t-spine, maybe it, maybe it
is single leg strength.
There's something that tends tocome back when you have a pause
(10:27):
in your training or a verystressful time, and that's your
canary in the coal mine.
I sit a lot, so hip mobility iskind of my canary in the coal
mine when I get tight in theanterior chain and I just know
that's going to cause problemsfor me.
Tony Pascolla (10:44):
So that's constantly something that I'm
keeping an eye on I I reallylike incorporating a lot of this
stuff in the beginning and I Igot mind the gap and I started
messing around with it.
You know, I've, you know,banged up shoulders, banged up
hips and I coach a lot of youthathletes as well and the big
(11:05):
things that I started doing isincorporating those movements in
their, in their warmups.
And specifically, I love the um, when we're talking about the
single leg work, the single leglunge with, with the row, with
the kettlebell, just with allthat stability on the leg and
just the, the demand that you'reputting on them and it's not a
big load, it's, you know, a 12kilo kettlebell, even sometimes
(11:29):
a little bit less, depending onwho they are.
That has, like, changed thegame for our kiddos and
especially bottoms up.
Um, pressing Right, it's.
That is a kryptonite for a lotof people, like, oh, I'm so
super strong I could press, orwhatever.
Okay, turn that sucker upside,upside down, and then we're
gonna see really out real quick.
Um, and it's actually it's.
(11:52):
We're in this minimalist thing,we want to hit those big six
like you were talking about.
But I feel like incorporatingthese movements gives just
enough variety to, you know, notget bored with it, even though
I can do the same workout allthe time, like you were talking
about, but it gives me a littlebit of a challenge to work on my
(12:13):
you know, broken arm bars, towork on my bottoms up game.
And especially you, you did thisvideo very recently.
I always do this.
I feel like every video thatI've ever seen of you, like
you've added this is, um, addinga kettlebell and doing those,
um, hip opening, um exercises inthe beginning of you know,
working the ankle first and thehip, those are.
(12:33):
Those are such game changersand you're getting into
positions that you're notnecessarily in.
And because we are very likebilateral, a lot of barbell
squat, you know, back squats, alot of goblet squats, single arm
squats that getting into thatsingle leg position and
isolating, um, some stability inthe shoulders is is huge.
And, like you said this, whatthe heck effect of I'm going to
(12:56):
start doing these other things.
And then, jesus, like, why ismy my get up so good?
Why is my you know press sogood, so good?
Brett Jones (13:04):
now, um, and sometimes you got to back off,
like you're saying, and not dothe thing to do the thing yeah,
I, I think it's, uh, thesprinkling those things in,
getting that little bit ofvariety, keeping the single leg,
the, the mobility, stabilityand strength gaps filled um, it
does, it checks a lot of boxesand it's a lot of fun.
(13:25):
And then you find those pinchpoints like the bottoms up press
, where I know somebody in thepast who this person was stuck
at about I don't know seven,either five or seven pull-ups,
and get into some bottoms uppressing and find out this this
was a, a lady who could bottomsup press 16 on one side but
(13:50):
couldn't even do the eight onthe other, got to the point
where it was 12 and 16 and sheknocked down like 10 or 12
pull-ups because if you thinkabout it, she's probably doing a
70 30 pull-up anyway.
And so balancing that strengthgap, um, allowed her to to
really get into the, the rest ofthe, the pull-ups, and have a
(14:12):
more symmetrical pull.
So I, I think it's, um, it's,it's definitely something.
And then you know, the carryover we're ultimately looking
for the athletes that you'reworking with um is to be
resilient, to handle theirtraining and their their playing
and perform well.
And you know, just it's, yeah,just balancing those, those
things out makes a hugedifference.
Tony Pascolla (14:34):
Yeah, and the single.
I just was on a podcast theother day and we just had like a
panel of a bunch of strongfirst coaches got on and the one
thing we were talking about is,hey, what's a must have in your
programs now, like like, what's, what's one of those like crux
pieces?
And I I say a lot like in thispast year, the athletes that
have been doing like airbornelunges, uh, lateral lunges,
(14:56):
everything single leg.
They move so much better intheir sport and they've even
noticed it too.
You know I've got kids that alot of them are very vain and
like in the aspect of, they wantto touch the rim or dunk.
And you know we'll work someplyometrics, we'll do the, you
know some deadlifting, jumping,whatever, um, but we do a lot of
single leg work and they'vecome back like man, I can get my
(15:18):
wrist into the, into the net,like I can get into the rim
almost now, and I couldn't evenbarely touch the rim.
I'm like dude, that is awesome.
So they do carry over and theywork.
People are moving way better.
So I love that.
Before we get into talking aboutsome training methodologies and
(15:40):
programming, I wanted to findthese two terms to help the
listeners kind of follow alongof intensity and effort.
You know, intensity from myunderstanding is, you know,
that's the percentages of ourfive rep max, one rep max of
where we're going, what thatweight's going to be, and the
effort is like, how hard am Iactually working where we?
(16:02):
We hear effort and intensity,we think the same thing.
Can you kind of elaborate alittle bit on that?
Brett Jones (16:07):
Well, I mean, you nailed it.
Uh, intensity is a is amathematical calculation, right,
it is.
It is based off your repetitionmax or your or your one rep max
, um, and it it's, it helpsguide your, it can help guide
your program.
So then, when we talk abouteffort and we do tend to confuse
(16:33):
these things we think intensityand we start thinking of the
turned around baseball cap fromover the top, great movie, Super
movie, a super movie, um, wethink about, you know, people
that are yelling and screamingand banging their head on the
bar, or you know, going tofailure as a, as a, you know a
marker of intensity, um,removing yourself from that
(16:56):
really helps.
So, effort, and we could look atthis from rpe, right, uh,
reading a perceived exertion, um, and rating and perceived
exertion, and there's a coupledifferent scales you can look at
here, originally developed tohelp guide cardiovascular work,
right, and so then we kind ofmodified it into a 10 point
scale.
That was a little easier forfolks to to manage and you know,
(17:19):
10 is as hard as you couldpossibly work.
If we look at that from astrength perspective, that is a
weight that you might have evenfailed to complete the lift
that's a 10,.
Right One is eh, I kind of triedFive, moderate effort and then
(17:40):
so we're really surfing thatfive to 10, five to eight If you
want to actually train well andhealthily, we're surfing that
five to eight continuum.
Another way to look at RP iswhen I'm doing a session and
let's say I'm doing a weightladder I did one the other day
(18:03):
double 32, 36 and 40, 36 and 40are single bells.
But do a set with a double 32,.
Do a set each arm at the 36,.
Do a set each arm at the 40.
There's lots of rest in there.
It's not as continuous as itsounds and I know I'm having a
great day when that 36 feelslike a 32.
That's a drop in RPE, right.
(18:25):
My rating and perceivedexertion at that load has
dropped.
And when the 40 feels like a 38, it's a good pressing day.
Now there's days where the 36absolutely feels like a 36 and
the 40 absolutely feels like a40.
So it's not where we can lookat intensity as a set
(18:45):
mathematical formula.
Effort in RPE is an ongoingconversation.
As we're progressing you'regoing to get things that drop in
RPE.
You might initially get into aworkout with, let's say, the 24
kilo and it's an eight.
It's an effort to get throughit.
Quality is still there.
You're not having a change inrep speed or tempo.
(19:08):
Um, you know, you're, you'regood, you know things have
gotten better.
When that rp is a six, you'relike that was easier, like I
could get through that, and, uh,I think I'm ready for more.
So so, mathematical formulaongoing conversation.
Tony Pascolla (19:33):
Do you feel, when you got clients or whatever, if
that RPE like they're doingsome sets and they're like, oh
damn, I'm struggling Cause I'vepicked up a 24 kilo and which is
not a huge bell for me, butsometimes either, my sleep at
wasn't great, I wasn't likehydrating very well.
Um, you know what have you?
Just life in general, I pick upa 24.
I'm like shit, this feels alittle bit heavier than I'm used
to.
Do you ever?
I feel like a lot of peoplecause it's programmed for the
day they want to do that.
(19:54):
Do you back them off and justbring a bell size down or bring
off the load or reps?
Brett Jones (19:59):
Absolutely Some combination of the above, and
one of the one of the biggestthings that I try to get my
students doing is understandingthat anything I ask them to do
is a suggestion or a guideline.
It's not a rule, nothing youhave to do.
My job is to set up theguardrails and let you ping
(20:19):
around in the guardrails.
Set up something that's safeand then, bing, bing, bing, bing
you can ping around withinthose guardrails and do what
works for the day.
The way I look at trainingright now is a consistency,
density, intensity.
So if I can get you consistentand I can increase the workload
we're accomplishing in a giventime, intensity will take care
(20:42):
of itself.
We'll get to intensity.
But people try to start withintensity and that's that's
problem, because you'll usuallyoverload the tissues too much,
so your load management goes offand that's.
You know, honestly, the if Iwere to ballpark, the biggest
problem in people's training istoo much, too soon.
(21:05):
That's just bad load management.
The other question I was askingfolks at Reform Better in
Chicago was how many of you areconstantly trying to figure out
how to recover from yourtraining, or constantly tweaked
or feeling like you're inflamedor whatever the case may be.
A bunch of hands went up.
I'm like, okay, here it is,you're doing too much.
(21:26):
Okay, but start there,forgetting Sarah Marshall, this,
but less right, and so if youstart with less, you'll build to
more.
But if you start with more, youusually end up trying to figure
out how to recover from yourtraining, and that's just.
That.
Shouldn't be the case.
Tony Pascolla (21:48):
We, or I clipped this from what you were on the
last podcast.
So one of the clips that I hadof you and I use this phrase all
the time because people ask methis and you've said it a bunch
of times so like, well, what'syour recovery strategy?
And you're like properprogramming, yeah, like we don't
have to get into all thesethings.
I was just in Austin at aconference and it was the hack
(22:09):
your health conference andliterally cause it used to be
keto con, they changed it tohack your health and you walk in
and it's literally red lighttherapy saunas, theraguns or
whatever and they got likemodels out there doing the whole
thing and I'm like, is thisreally what it's come to?
I think cold plunge Great.
You want to do saunas Amazing,but that is all supplemental
(22:35):
things versus I need this on theday-to-day.
Brett Jones (22:36):
If you need this on the day-to-day, so something's
wrong sleep, hydration,nutrition, stress, right, the
four horsemen of eitherimproving your health or taking
you in the other direction.
And so if we yeah, we'll evenshoot for the nah, it's not
going to do it.
But when, when somebody comesin and this is, you know, with
(23:01):
FMS's direction right now andthe Simeo app and work, sleep,
hydration, nutrition, stress.
So if you're not sleeping,you're not hydrated, your
nutrition sucks and your stressis through the roof.
And stress could berelationship stress, work stress
, health stress, any of those,yeah, it's going to
(23:27):
significantly impact what youcan do.
And so you know and Gray usedto talk about, in terms of the
said principle, specificadaptation to impose demands.
Right, well, it's theorganism's specific adaptations
to the environment's imposeddemands.
So if your mattress is bad,right, an environment problem.
And you're taking melatonin,it's not going to to help, right
(23:53):
, you got to change the mattress, so you have an environment
problem there.
But if, if you're um, if you'reum, having caffeine too late in
the day and it's impacting yourability to get into that first
sleep cycle, well, that's anorganism problem.
Right Now, we got to dosomething to tweak the organism
just a little bit, um, and so isthe problem that you're having
(24:15):
an environment problem or anorganism problem, because if you
can start making thosedecisions and clarifying where
do I actually need to put myattention, you'll start making
better decisions.
You'll change the mattressbecause it's an environment
problem and you'll quit takingthe melatonin because you know,
as we have joked for years,you're not sore because of an
(24:35):
advil deficiency, right, it's.
You're doing something to getsore.
Uh, you, bad technique, badmovement, too much.
You know some, some combinationthereof.
So do we have an organismproblem?
Do we have an environmentproblem?
And you know getting squaredaway with sleep, hydration,
nutrition and stress, thenputting proper programming on
(24:58):
top of that, man, you'd beamazed at where you can take
yourself.
But buying a five thousanddollar cold punch tank, uh,
might make it feel good, uh, forhaving put that thing in place.
I'm willing to bet there'ssomething in your sleep,
hydration, nutrition and stressthat would make a bigger change.
Tony Pascolla (25:19):
Easily easily and we're talking about proper
programmings and that's where Iwant to go.
Next is we have these differentideas and you see a lot of the
same common commonalities, likein America, social media.
We have, like most, a majorityof strength coaches are going to
(25:40):
be doing linear progressions.
Can you kind of talk aboutlinear versus like a step
cycling or a waving cycle?
Brett Jones (26:01):
cycle.
So linear is just like itsounds.
Now there are good linearprograms, so let me put that out
there first before I say thenext thing I'm going to say,
because nobody puts baby in acorner.
Only in business school do youhave continued linear progress
year over year, right.
And when you look at the stockmarket, yes, over time, to start
(26:21):
, the stock market looks likeit's up.
There's a lot of dips andvalleys in there, right.
So a linear program isbasically I'm going to go up
five pounds a week, right, andI'll work towards a new three to
five RM and I'll maybe test fora new one RM and then I'll
reset my numbers, maybe startingat 70%.
(26:43):
This was a lot of traditionalAmerican powerlifting followed,
kind of a linear periodizationthing.
Where do I want to be?
What's my 102 to 105% goal?
At my next meet set a new PR.
Right Now, I just workbackwards and I start eight to
12 weeks before I know that I'mgoing to go up five to 10 pounds
(27:06):
a week and I just you know Iwhich is going to have me
starting potentially at 65% ofmy projected that 102 to 105% RM
and that'll.
I count backwards and I just goup in those little increments
until I get to that goal.
So that's linear periodization.
(27:29):
Step, I think, is one that wewe're so convinced that we need
to microload and we need to makethese little progressions that
we miss out on the benefit ofstep progressions.
So step progressions, the theeasiest way I can and can
describe it is the oldkettlebell set, 22 plus years
ago.
(27:49):
When I got into this, you, youhad a 16, a 24 and a 32.
There were no tweeners, thatwas it.
So if you got a traditional setand you're like 16 is easy, I
can press the 24.
32 is not budget.
Well, you didn't.
You went and pressed the 24 alot and then you could press the
(28:11):
32.
So that's step loading in anutshell.
Uh, step loading is you aregoing to make a jump up.
Uh, so we're not.
Now we're not doing a littlefive pound, ten pound
incremental movement over alinear progression.
Now we're saying I'm going tostart at x and I'm going to
train at x for three or fourweeks.
(28:33):
Now I'm going to make a 20, 25pound jump or a kettlebell size,
whatever the implement.
Now I'm going to train at thatload for three to four weeks,
make another jump, train at thatload.
So now we're taking steps, butthe important piece there is I'm
(28:56):
staying at that load forupwards of four weeks, if not a
little bit longer.
And that sounds like peoplehear that.
They're like what are youtalking about?
You can't stay at the same loadfor four weeks.
It's like, yeah, you, you can.
Um, and the reason is when,when you look at periodization,
(29:16):
the reason a mesocycle willtypically be about four to six
weeks in length is we know thefirst two weeks are neural,
primarily neurologicaladaptation.
Then we have a stabilization ofthose initial gains and tissue
adaptation.
So the reason you want toeither stay on a routine, a
(29:37):
mesocycle, for four to six weeksor do a step cycle that's about
three to four weeks in length,is we're getting past that
initial neurological gain, we'regetting to the stabilization of
those gains and we're gettingtissue adaptation.
The third and probably one ofthe more challenging types of
programming to really do well iswave.
(29:58):
So now we're waving up andstepping down, waving up and
stepping down, and so that mightlook like maybe over the course
of a three to four week periodyou're going from 100 to 110,
120, 130, 140.
Now we're stepping back down to110, 120, 130, 140, 150.
(30:19):
Now we're stepping down right.
So now we're waving up andcoming back down purposefully.
Um, there is an allure to onceyou reach the peak of that wave,
you want to stay there.
That's where the problemsusually start, right, and I've
had a lot of people like, ah,you know, I finally I could
(30:40):
press, you know, the 36 kilobell and so I'm gonna, that's
where I'm gonna live.
Now I'm like whoa, whoa, don'tforget what got you there.
What got you there was the 28and the 32.
Like the 36 is now.
I like to refer to it.
It's almost like familiar orfamily sort of situation.
My kettlebell wife is my 32kilo.
(31:03):
That's my ride or die.
Like I can pick that thing up,I can have a great workout.
It's always going to be there.
It's consistent.
I feel like I could, if you'vestuck me in a room and said,
well, you could stick me in aroom with a 16 kilo and I'll
still come out strong and fit,but I'd rather it be a 32.
So stick me in a room with onebell, put me in a trip where I
(31:26):
can only take one bell.
It's going to be a 32.
Um, I visit the 36 pretty often.
Um, are like the, the in-lawsthat you visit, and this, these
are the good in-laws, right,where you don't mind visiting.
And you, you do that prettyoften.
I lived in my first marriage.
I lived down the street from myin-laws.
It was a frequent visit.
(31:46):
The 40 kilo for me is a.
That's the weird uncle that Ionly visit every now and then.
Right, that's the weird unclethat I only visit every now and
then.
Right, that's the black sheepof the family we just visit
every now and then.
Um, that is a more of a how Idemonstrate my progress, not how
I build my progress.
So I will wave those weights asI train.
So essentially linear, justlike it sounds step.
(32:10):
Just like it sounds Step.
Just like it sounds Wave.
Build it, step back before youfall down and work your
progression that way.
Tony Pascolla (32:21):
I like the step cycling and the wave cycling and
it's hard for people tounderstand because, you're right
, when they get to that one topweight they're like, oh man,
like I could just go up fromhere.
I'm so strong, like.
But the way that I understandit is that adaption period, like
your muscles are going to startto adapt but your ligaments and
(32:43):
your tissues and your nervoussystem are going to kind of
trail a little bit.
And if you don't stay there andthe weight isn't moving very
well, everything if you justkeep going there's no upside.
I feel like you're just goingto get hurt and then you're
going to take three months, ifnot worse, off of your training.
But it's really hard for peopleto just wrap their heads around
(33:06):
that more isn't better.
Brett Jones (33:09):
Yeah, it's coming back to the kind of the
kettlebell uh conversation wheremaybe you got that traditional
set.
You're just you're justpressing the 24.
Well, what you're going to endup doing is a little higher
volume, right, and now we getthat tissue adaptation,
everything's ready.
We neurologically groove thatpattern.
24 ends up feeling prettygroovy, pretty easy, right, and
(33:34):
then all of a sudden the 32 goesup.
Don't forget what got you there.
It was the easier work for alittle bit of volume and density
that got you to that heavierweight.
Now you can start sprinkling inthat 32 a little more often so
that you start building thecapacity there.
But there is a differencebetween what builds your
(33:54):
strength and how you demonstrateyour strength, and we tend to
confuse those.
We want to always go in anddemonstrate our strength and
forgetting what actually allowedus to build that strength.
So I think that might be a goodway to kind of phrase things.
(34:15):
So when you hit the peak andyou demonstrated progress,
that's all you did.
You demonstrated what got youthere was all that work you did
to build towards it.
So demonstrate it.
Awesome, I get it.
Step back down, wave it backback up again, and so there are
weights you visit.
Tony Pascolla (34:35):
There's weights you live with and demonstrate
versus build this um, when wetalk about volume and intensity,
right with, if we start to pushthe volume up right, more you
know, more sets, more reps we'regetting a lot more time working
with the skill we have to backoff that intensity and then,
(34:57):
vice versa, if we're going tostart pushing that up, the
volume has got to go down, right, yeah.
Brett Jones (35:04):
Yes, yes, yes, because when you look at
PlanStrong and BuiltStrong,where Pavel and Fabio have
innovated, I mean it's some ofthe best programming information
that's out there.
In traditional training, volumeand down, intensity goes down,
(35:25):
volume goes up, and there's alot of traditional powerlifting,
cycling and things that usethat coupled volume and
intensity.
It is a way to do it, nothingwrong with it, right, but you
can program so that you uncouplethose things.
You can have high volume, highintensity days, you can have low
(35:45):
volume, low intensity days andevery permutation in between.
So now your programming justexploded open, right it is.
It is a main, like Fabio is andPavel are like they do math.
Tony Pascolla (36:00):
I don't, I don't do math.
Brett Jones (36:01):
Right, I have a hard enough time just doing tick
marks on my in my thing.
And that was actually funny.
One of the I'm headed down toCosta Rica and to teach, and
Victor Carrillo, our instructordown there.
I was telling him some some ofwhat I was doing with my, with
my iron cardio work, and he'slike you did what.
He's like, do you realize whatyou did?
I'm like no, do you realizewhat you did?
(36:22):
I'm like no, he's like you did120 presses in like you know 35
minutes.
I'm like yeah, he's like that'smost people's NL for the month.
You did it in a day in about 40minutes, 30, 40 minutes.
He's like what are you doing?
I'm like I don't know training.
I didn't think about it thatway.
(36:42):
Then I started doing the mathand I'm like I'm having 240, 300
rep sessions of clean press andsquat and snatch and you know
different variations.
So but when you, when youuncouple volume and intensity,
you have to be your programminghas to be pretty dialed in, but
now, like the programmingoptions just explode open.
(37:04):
You've got so many differentthings and one of the keys to
that is never training tofailure and always you always
keep reps in the back and whenyou look at velocity-based
(37:31):
research and there was a goodstudy on a six by four protocol,
um, that, um, uh, was wasreally interesting.
Um, so you, you take a whatever, an 8rm, and you're going to do
, like a six sets of fourinstead of three sets of eight.
You know, usually we would takethat 8rm and we push it right,
we're gonna have we gotta goclose to failure.
No, you don't.
Um, so you know, having that andthe velocity-based research
kind of validates that, there'ssome research that Dan I believe
(37:52):
it was Dan Baker had out thatyou know, stopping at a velocity
drop of I think it was 20% andor doing sets of four versus
sets of eight with that same,similar sort of intensity.
The group that was stopping atsets of four or the velocity
drop, ready to train again andrecovered in 24 hours.
(38:12):
The group that was pushing forthe three sets of eight and not
ignoring the velocity drop 72hours before they were recovered
and ready to train again.
I know which one I choose.
Tony Pascolla (38:22):
So yeah, so yeah, some options there.
And then a lot of times peopledo the variable training with
the dice right To give this, youknow, and that's, you know,
muscle confusion, whatever itmay be, but that's you'll have
like a high intensity and a highvolume day and you're like
Jesus and then, but you'll,you'll randomly get a low
(38:44):
intensity, low volume day, andit just kind of keeps you
guessing and which is kind offun too, just to like throw that
in there.
Brett Jones (38:50):
Exactly.
Um, it's not random acts ofvariety, it's randomization with
a purpose.
Right, because now if we, if weare going to follow sort of a
more minimalist routine, or youknow, we're just doing swings
and get ups Now when we plug inthis randomization I joked for
years you can do the same thingevery day.
As long as you don't do thesame thing every day.
(39:11):
I love oxymoronic statements,so you know, if you're just
doing the same thing every day,yeah, that's, you're going to
stagnate if we create thisrandomization and this
variability within that standardthing.
You know, the programmingoptions not only open up, but
(39:31):
progress is I don't want to sayinsured, but yeah, I'll say
insured.
Tony Pascolla (39:39):
And we're talking about the programming and I
want to talk about some, youknow, methodologies to optimize
performance and, specifically,and I want to talk about some
methodologies to optimizeperformance and specifically,
and again, I have a veryrudimentary understanding of
this, but I feel like it'simportant to talk about the
difference between lacticthreshold training is like
you're pushing yourself in orderto have a higher threshold for
(40:10):
buildup of lactic acid and youcontinuously train at a very
high intensity to do that,whereas anti-glycolytic is,
we're not producing as much orwe're in it is not as fast.
What are the kind of thedifferences of that?
And like, how, how does thathelp you in your training?
Like, what do you choose?
Brett Jones (40:33):
So I would.
I would put it in these termscapacity versus tolerance.
So the traditional lacticthreshold training is all about
tolerance.
Can you take the burn Like can,can you suffer through the
accumulation of this and and thethe way it bogs down power
production, energy productionand really everything?
(40:55):
So can you tolerate the burn?
And that's that's the waytraining has been done for for a
long time.
Well, the the the opposite ofthat is can we increase our
capacity to handle the wasteproducts and the way energy
production works, so that wehave a more efficient system?
And so now we can performbetter.
(41:16):
Working your capacity, you'llbring up your tolerance and your
capacity.
Working on your tolerance, justbuild your tolerance and your
capacity.
Working on your tolerance, justbuild your tolerance.
But we like the tolerance styletraining because it sucks, it's
hard, it burns, you sweat, it'sdifficult.
(41:37):
That must have been effective.
When you're working to buildcapacity, you're going to get
just enough of a response togive your system something to
clear and then let it clear,give it the rest it needs in
order to clear those wasteproducts.
And so better recovery, betterhealth, better a lot of good
(41:59):
benefits on the capacity side ofthings.
And so do we need to do someglycolytic peaking if we have an
event coming up?
Absolutely, if I'm going to getready for a snatch test, I know
that I can ramp glycolytically,because a five-minute snatch
test is glycolytic, there's noavoiding it.
(42:20):
Right?
I'm going to do some glycolytictraining in order to peak for
that snatch test, right?
So glycolytic peaking is prettyquick.
It's three to four weeks.
Three to five weeks you can beat a glycolytic peak and have
(42:43):
that lactic threshold push andbe ready for the event.
Tony Pascolla (42:49):
But to train like that for an extended period of
time it's just too high of acost on the body.
Yeah, you mentioned somethingtoo of we train at those high
intensities because it sucks,and you're right.
What is the cost?
I, I go to a box gym that it'slike it's pretty cross-fitty,
it's just the community is great, everybody's awesome there and
just to have people to trainwith.
But most of the people want toat the end of their workout,
(43:11):
want to be on the floor.
They want to be on the floorand I'm just like give a high
five, say good job, good job,and I and it's a little bit, you
have to kind of take an egocheck and you you can't take the
prescribed workout to heartbecause, like if you need to
punch the clock and you're notmaking the time, like stop
punching the clock, like takesome rest, but that it's such a
(43:34):
hard thing for people to getaround because they'll do this
anti-glycolytic work and feelgreat.
And I just had my friend Nathanon the podcast and he has the
best saying.
I just had my friend Nathan onthe podcast and he has the best
saying.
I think he stole it fromsomebody, but he talks about how
he goes when I leave mytraining sessions.
If I get cornered in the alleyand I need to get into a fist
fight, I can do it.
He's like if I walk out and Iget cornered in the alley and he
(43:57):
goes there ain't no way I'mgoing to fight my way out of
this.
He goes.
Brett Jones (44:01):
I train too hard, yeah there's a I think it was
Earl Lederman, an old timestrongman, who said at the, at
the, at the finish of yourtraining, you should feel ready
to battle for the kingdom, notlike the war was lost.
Well, that's a good one too.
Yeah, same same idea, same samevein of vein of thought.
There, you know, it comes backa little bit to that build
(44:23):
versus demonstrate sort ofconcept.
It comes back a little bit tothat build versus demonstrate
sort of a concept.
If every workout is youdemonstrating how far you can
push, that's not building,that's demonstrating.
So, you know, separate yourtraining.
Are there times where we wantto demonstrate, where we are
Absolutely.
That's not every session, right, it's.
(44:45):
There are sessions we're goingto do to build, have a
demonstration, go back tobuilding and have a
demonstration.
So, um, you know you, you need,realistically, uh, there are
times where you need that push,that push, uh, and that
demonstration of where you are,uh can be very helpful with your
(45:05):
training.
Um, so, but we only want to doit periodically.
Um, we want to have morebuilding workouts than
demonstration workouts.
Tony Pascolla (45:16):
Let's take that to your, your iron cardio Cause.
Like for most of the listenersyou know, the iron cardio is a
single arm, clean, a press squatwith some add ons of you know,
pushups, snatches, pull ups.
But can you talk about how, howshould you be progressing that
Like?
Is there a threshold of, likehow many sets or reps you should
(45:40):
be doing within this ironcardio?
Brett Jones (45:42):
So my general metric is if you can double the
time and sets so let's say youset a clock for 20 minutes and
you can do more than 40 sets youprobably need a more
challenging variation or aheavier load.
Like you need to imposesomething into that that uh
workout or session that that hasyou wanting to rest more
(46:06):
between sets.
So, uh, with double bells, Ithink it's a set about every 45
seconds.
If you can do greater than that, probably need a more
challenging uh variation or aheavier load.
Um, so that metric seems tohave worked out pretty well over
the last little bit here.
And, yeah, rest is the mostabused training variable.
(46:32):
We just don't want to rest.
When you look at elite sprintersDerek Toshner, who was an NCAA
champ and has competed at veryhigh levels, you know, has
competed at very high levels um,they would run a sprint, one
about every 15 minutes.
(46:52):
Wow, that is how they built thecapacity to demonstrate their
speed when they raced, right.
So, um, now were they laying ona couch for the 15 minutes in
between sprints?
No, they were doing a littlebit of stretching, a little bit
of movement, a little.
You know, there were littlethings that they were doing, but
they ran a sprint about every15, 10 to 15 minutes.
(47:16):
It is the difference betweenrepeats versus intervals.
Uh, intervals don't care, theclock's going to go ding, you
need to go.
Your performance can bedropping, your quality can drop,
you're, you're not able to dowhat you did the first time,
right?
I'm going to make up numbershere.
Okay, so let's say we're doing200 meter intervals and we set
(47:38):
up and again making up numbershere Uh, we set up a 40 second
interval where every 40, youknow, know you're gonna run a
240 seconds and you're gonnarest 40 seconds.
You're gonna do that again.
That's your interval.
Well, you might make the 200meters for the first two to
three times.
(48:00):
By the time you get to thefourth or fifth interval, you're
probably only going to coverabout 150 meters.
By the time that 40 seconds isup, your performance is dropping
.
You are training yourself toget slower.
You're not helping yourself,right?
But the clock doesn't care,clock's going to go ding, you
need to go.
This is intense, this sucks, itburns, this is great.
No, it's not.
(48:20):
You're training yourself to beslower.
You're training yourself tohave lower quality.
It's not the way you want to doit.
Repeats mean you can cover thatsame 200 meters at the same
pace every time, and as soon asyou are not able to repeat that
effort, the session is done.
In fact, I would say, when youthink you can't repeat that time
(48:42):
and effort in the that uh, timeand effort, um.
In the next interval, the next,repeat, you're done.
Don't wait for the performanceto drop.
Tony Pascolla (48:52):
Most of us need to we're going to take a shot at
it.
Brett Jones (48:57):
Right, right, and then like, oh yeah, I should
have stopped at the one before.
Um, so yeah, I think if, ifpeople thought more about
repeating effort and that'sreally what I'm doing in Iron
Cardio I want that clean to becrisp, I want that press to feel
the same speed, same strength.
I want that squat to feel goodIf I'm throwing a snatch in.
(49:17):
I want that snatch to just bepowerful to the top.
If I get my pace too fast, Istart losing quality.
Clean is just a little bit off.
That press slows down a little.
All of I start losing quality.
Clean is just a little bit off.
That press slows down a little.
All of those things start tohappen.
If we kept that quality andthat concept of repeating not
intervaling, but repeating thesame quality, strength, power,
(49:41):
effort training would bedifferent.
Tony Pascolla (49:45):
You're saying when should people start to look
to make a jump?
Like how long cause your yoursessions, like they're timed
right?
You, you started at a certaintime and then you get to another
time and then you change it.
So when should we be makingjumps of bell sizes?
Is it by the time or is it justkind of how we're feeling?
Brett Jones (50:04):
It's a little bit of both.
So what for my personaltraining?
I tend to do more, um, I I callit work constrained.
So I've been focused right nowon like 40 set sessions.
Um, I've experimented like Ithink 50 and 60 is.
That's a big effort that'sgoing to take a little more time
(50:25):
to recover from.
I think 20 to 30 is a good kindof lower um, lower effort or
maintenance sort of effort.
40 sets might be the idealnumber.
Um, that's what I'm sayingtoday.
I might say something differentnext year.
Um, but, and then how long doesit take me to get those 40 sets
done?
But, and then how long does ittake me to get those 40 sets
(50:47):
done?
So I define the number of setsI'm going to do.
The time is variable and thatvaries on the weight and or the
load that I'm using, thevariation of iron cardio that
I'm doing, other factors likethat.
But I still use that if I candouble the time in sets.
(51:07):
So for that 40 sets if I'm sub20 minutes it's too easy.
I need a more challengingvariation.
So I think that metric stillholds.
Tony Pascolla (51:17):
Gotcha, and so you're doing 20 on the left, 20
on the right, and if you'regetting right to that 40 minutes
, you're in the sweet spot.
Brett Jones (51:27):
Sweet spot to just a little too much, a little too
fast.
And again, I want to build tothe point where I can
demonstrate that 40 sets in sub20 minutes and then know that
it's time to change what I'mdoing a little bit.
And there's nothing wrong somedays just having a um Jeff
(51:50):
Martone used to call it a killerworkout.
Keep it light and happy.
Um.
So I love oxymoronic things, soI love the idea that killer
means keep it light and happy.
Tony Pascolla (52:01):
Um, they're going to say like oh go, full clip,
Exactly.
Brett Jones (52:05):
No, no, Keep it light and happy.
So there's days where thatlight and happy session is
exactly what you want to do.
Tony Pascolla (52:14):
So yeah, awesome.
Yeah, I love the Iron Cardio.
I try to incorporate it.
I feel like I move very wellwith uh with it, and it's just
another thing.
Tool of training.
Do I use barbells?
Absolutely, um, but I just feellike I can move a little bit
better and feel really goodafter my sessions.
(52:36):
What's coming up next for you?
Are you got?
I know you just were doing someperform better conferences.
Anything else coming up, uh,either seminars or um projects?
Oh gosh.
Brett Jones (52:48):
Um, uh, I'm traveling and teaching basically
every other weekend through, uh, september.
Um, so, um, I got a lot of SFGones and an SFG two coming up.
Um, some workshops um got, uh,I have started doing some iron
cardio workshops.
So before the SFG two in DenverI've got an iron cardio
(53:08):
workshop coming up that daybefore.
So, yeah, it's a lot coming up.
I can't get to the point whereI can get the next project ready
because I've got too much goingon at the moment and so, yeah,
it's so very busy.
The next I would say the nextproject hasn't revealed itself
(53:32):
to me yet.
And you know, iron Cardiorevealed itself pretty, pretty
quickly as something that I wasgoing to be able to to, to write
on and do a project on, able touh to, to write on and do a
project on mind.
The gap came very naturallybecause it built out of this
minimalist training andrealizing, yeah, I got to go
back and fill a couple of gapshere.
(53:52):
Um, so the next project kind ofhasn't revealed itself.
Tony Pascolla (53:57):
Um yeah, one thing I want to ask you about,
and I was just curious aboutthis doing the iron cardio
seminars or sessions at performbetter uh, do is it.
Just is it different?
You know, because that'sperform better is a bunch of
different people from in theindustry coming in where, if
you're doing like a iron cardioat a strong first, like they're
(54:19):
picking up what you're puttingdown, do you feel like there was
like a transition?
People kind of got it orthey're just kind of like whoa,
this is so above and beyond.
I have no idea.
Brett Jones (54:29):
No, it was a good response.
It was a good response and Ithink people were curious,
curious about it.
I also like to think that thatI'm a good example of what this
training has and can do, and sothere's a little proof in the
pudding, uh, for for the personwho's standing in front of you
saying this is something youmight like to try, um, and you
(54:51):
can kind of get the idea that,yeah, it looks like it's, it
looks like it's working, so, um,I so, yeah, but it was, it was
a good response, and the performbetter crowd is.
It is interesting because it is, uh.
I like to refer to the summitsas like the, uh, the fitness
buffet.
Um, you can go sample a lot ofdifferent things and get a lot
(55:13):
of different ideas, and and Ithink that's the way to look at
it You're getting an idea thatyou're then going to want to go
deeper into.
Uh, or maybe you go to a talkand you're like no, not for me,
um's, you know, that's the waythat that usually goes.
Tony Pascolla (55:29):
Well, thanks for coming on and for those that are
listening.
You know, check out Mind, theGap, iron Cardio, and where can
people find your information,brett?
Brett Jones (55:39):
So Instagram is probably one of the better ways.
So, brett Jones SFG, uh on uhInstagram.
Uh, my website appliedstrengthcom.
Um strong first, doing moresocial media and things through
functional movementcom.
Um hashtag, move with FMS.
Um hashtag, be strong first.
(56:01):
There you go.
Hashtag iron cardio Um so um.
Last last thing, real quick,cause I think this has been a
question uh sometimes with uhthe anti-glycolytic training.
Um kind of defining that just alittle bit more, um, and and
maybe just saying we realize allthree energy systems go at the
same time.
(56:21):
Right, there's, there's no wayto say we're anti, we're never
going glycolytic.
In fact, if you look at Quickand the Dead, we want to go a
little glycolytic but then haveenough time to recover.
So, digging into theanti-glycolytic mindset just a
little bit further, maybe afuture podcast, there we go,
(56:42):
part number three.
Tony Pascolla (56:43):
Exactly.
Thanks again for coming on andthank you for everybody
listening to the primalfoundations podcast.
Thank you all for joining us.
If you enjoyed this episode,don't forget to subscribe, like
and share.
See you all next time on theprimal foundations podcast.
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