Episode 54: No Gimmicks, Just Gains with Jim Wendler 5/3/1

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's guest is Jim Whittler.
Jim played football andgraduated from University of
Arizona where he was athree-time letter winner.
Jim went on to squat 1,000pounds in competition and
accomplished 2,375 pound total.
As an elite lifter he hascoached high school athletes,
collegiate athletes, trainedgeneral population, spoken
globally on the topics ofstrength training, conditioning,

(00:22):
fat loss, performance andprogram design.
Jim is also the creator of theiconic 5-3-1 program, one of the
most influential and widelyadopted strength templates ever
developed.
Jim, welcome to the PrimalFoundations podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Thank you very much for having me.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, it's an honor for me.
I've used your program.
It seems like every high schoolstrength coach has some
knowledge or has heard of thisprogram, so it's a really great
day to sit down and talk to you.
Zoom to zoom instead of face toface I guess.
But yeah, for some of thelisteners you know kind of

(00:58):
talking about your backgroundfirst and just kind of get to
know you a little bit.
You know what got you intostrength training and you know
back when you were starting whatresources did you have.
You know strength coachliterature, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
So the story goes, I was bugging my dad was a
football coach, athleticdirector, pe teacher, and so
sports were always a big part ofour house.
And for years, when I was Idon't know fourth, fifth, sixth,
I don't remember exactly I wasbugging my old man to take me to
the weight room.
I just wanted to lift and Ithink I'm going to guess,

(01:32):
because I don't remember exactly, but it's probably just the
Arnold Schwarzenegger, SylvesterStallone.
I was obsessed with being bigand powerful and stuff, and I
was an average kid, so to speak,and I was bugging him forever
and he was always like you'retoo young, just do pushups and
sit-ups.
And I was like, nah, I want tolift weights.
Anyway, long story short,between the summer, between my

(01:53):
seventh and eighth grade year,he said, he sat me down, I'll
never forget this and saidlisten, we're going to start
training.
He went in with me and trainedwith me and he's like, if you,
once you commit, you can't stop,I don't care how much you hate
it, but this is something youhave to stick with.
And I was like yep, yep, yep.

(02:13):
And so that was what, like twoor three months or something,
and I remember my first dayschool, eighth grade year.
I remember I remember thet-shirt I was wearing.
I remember walking in throughthe door and I remember one of
my friends, who I hadn't seenall summer, said oh my God, what
did you do?
And I was like I didn't know.
I was like what are you talkingabout?
I was like dude, you lookmassive.
So my sixth grade and seventhgrade year I played as many
sports as I could and I also rancross country.

(02:35):
I ended up qualifying for thestate meet in junior high when I
was in seventh grade.
By the time track came aroundmy eighth grade year I was the
fastest kid in school.
I played football seventh andeighth grade year.
My eighth grade performance infootball was insane.
I threw the disc farther.
I set the school record in thediscus.
So I saw all these things.

(02:56):
I went downstate in thewrestling.
It's the first year I everwrestled, because you could play
basketball and wrestle.
That was the first year thatyou could play both sports.
They separated the seasons.
I had never wrestled before.
I made it to the state meet.
All these things changed in mylife and I was just stronger.
That's it Now.
I wasn't what you would callstrong and I didn't know what I
was doing.
I mean, we had posters on thewall.

(03:18):
We had a universal A lot ofpeople don't they know universal
machines but there was acircuit, giant universal circuit
.
Uh, we had all these differentstations, probably eight or ten
stations leg press, dips, lat,pull downs, bench press,
shoulder press and we would justgo around and around three sets
of everything.
That was pretty much the extentof what I had access to with

(03:39):
whatever posters were on thewall in the high school weight
room because, again, my dad wasin the high school, he would
take me there when I, uh, Icontinued lifting right through
every season.
I never missed a day, threetimes a week.
We would just just basically dothe same basic thing every all
days.
And then we started working withthe barbell, probably three or
four months into it and, uh, youknow it's.
I remember the first time I puta bar on my back.

(04:02):
Oh, it hurts, you know like,but I quickly got, you know,
fairly strong, cause, again, wedidn't miss any days and there
was a high school teacher whoended up coaching me in track.
He was my discus coach.
He was big, you know, I stillthink I look back and he was
super strong.
He was, you know, 35 year olddude.
He I saw him hang clean 290 for10 reps and without a belt on

(04:25):
just super explosive.
And when I first got into theweight room, a lot of times the
high school kids would be inthere and it was very
intimidating because there'slike 35 kids in there and I'm
just a little dork kid andDarren, this coach never talked
to me, never said a word to me.
And then one day, like sixmonths in, he said something to
me like maybe you shouldprobably do some straight leg

(04:46):
deadlifts.
I'll never forget this and Iwas like okay, I was like I
don't know what you know.
And then after about a year, hekind of took me under his wing,
so to speak, and he taught meabout you know how to squat a
little better, how to do cleansand jumps.

(05:40):
We started doing a ton ofjumping.
Anyway, long story short, hekind of became my mentor.
So he's the one that kind ofset me right.
Now, there wasn't.
We talk about information.
The only thing I had access tois my parents, because I'm like
very obsessive about something.
As soon as I want to dosomething, that's like my main
focus.
And my parents bought me, likeit wasn't the Arnold
encyclopedia, it was somethingsimilar to that.
That was an Arnold book muchthinner, and that's where I
learned about the differentexercises and stuff.
So I just, you know, you have apicture or a book with some
pictures and a couple ofdescriptions, and then the stuff
, the posters that were on thewall.
That maybe.
But the good thing is you gotto learn on your own and you got
to throw a lot of stuff on thewall.
As I'm sure everyone here knows, every week I had a different
perfect workout, you know, andthis lasted all the way through

(06:01):
pretty much through my highschool years.
But the thing is, as I gotstronger, you know, I started
finding magazines that my dadwould have because he was the
athletic director and he wouldhave like publications sent in
from different sporting things.
I remember reading about thethrowers the discus shot putters
, hammer throwers were reallyahead of their time.
That's when I learned aboutGeorge Friend, like I was.
That's awesome, like, imaginelearning about like the old box

(06:23):
squats from West Side Bar.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
I had no idea, that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Like imagine learning about, like the old box squats
from a Westside bar.
I had no idea.
You know, throughout my highschool career I kind of had a
system and as, basically, Iwould always try to get a PR set
, that was just what I did.
I w and I I found the set repmax.
When I was a kid.
I remember the magazine I wasreading it.
It was a.
It was a article on BrunoPaletto and he talked about
having how to compare rep maxes.

(06:45):
You could, you know, calculateyour one RM or something like
that.
So I was like, listen, if I justkeep on trying to bump it up,
and so I would just chooserandom weights, pretty much.
So if I squatted, you know, 225for eight, what can I do with
235 to better that too?
You know what I'm saying.
So I would just plug in this iswhat I did all day.
I didn't even have a calculator.
I would just that's why I'mreally good at math, I think

(07:07):
like the basic stuff, because Idid so many calculations and
that's how I trained I wouldjust try and beat my PR, that's
it, and that's kind of that'swhat set the tone for the five
through one program.
If I'm going, not a, it's notfor everyone, because it's you
got to be ultra competitive.
You've got to be ready to, youknow, put it on the line, so to
speak, every day.

(07:28):
But that's what I did and I myperformance in school or in
sports, I should say, not schoolimproved drastically.
I mean drastically.
I was fairly self-aware, youknow, when I was in junior high
and high school, that I didn'tlook like my football heroes,
because that's all I want to dois play college football.
That was it.
And I once I got better at, youknow, strength training.

(07:49):
I got stronger, like, I gotbetter and I was like, oh, I
just got to get stronger andbigger, that's it, that's my key
.
And I found something that Icould control, that could make
up for any deficiencies.
Now we all know now genetically, like you've got to have good
genetics to go far, and I'm madeup for average genetics by

(08:10):
training harder.
It's just never going to getyou over the real hump, if we're
going to be completely honest,and one of the things I've had a
real epiphany on when I trainhigh school kids now the high
school football team is I seepictures of like Miles Garrett
when he was in high school.
It's unbelievable.
Or Nick Chubb, who's in highschool.

(08:30):
It looked like you and I couldnever, lift or take enough drugs
to look like either of thoseguys when they were in high
school, and you realize howimportant training is if you're
just an average dude becauseit's not going to make you into
an NFL player but man you can gofar and that's essentially what
my entire focus the last 10years has been is.

(08:51):
I don't really care about thefreaks on the field because
there's nothing we can dotraining wise that is ever going
to make you know, a six, five,250 pound high school kid run a
four, four.
That's just how he's built.
He's got great parents Notsaying he doesn't work hard.
But what do I need to do tomake our average kids?
Now they're good athletes, butthey're not NFL athletes.

(09:12):
No one's going to Ohio Statefrom London here.
What can we do training-wise tocompete against the good
athletes or better athletes?
And as a coach at London, uh,since I started now this is not
just me, I'm gonna make thatvery clear.
We have a really good team ofcoaches and stuff, but I started

(09:32):
my first uh off season wasprior to the 2017 season and the
year prior we won three games.
We have never missed theplayoffs.
Last year we went to the finalfour, the only public team to
make it to the final four.
We've only had one D1 athletesince I've been here and I think
two others probably could haveplayed.

(09:52):
They went to a little lowerlevels of school.
So to see that kind of successhappening at a small school in
Ohio and our kids, like our Dline probably last year averaged
like 165, and we're absolutelybarn burners I mean explosive
they could all deadlift well ortrap bar well over 400 pounds.
Our linemen you know again ouroffensive linemen not the

(10:14):
biggest guys in the world butthey're quick and they're
incredibly strong and we're just.
You know, the kids overcomewhatever, just like I had to
overcome anything that they dondon't have by just training
consistently and being justgiving good effort.
That's all it comes down to.
So it's been.
I know we're kind of jumping offtrack here, but that's because
I see how I was and you knoweveryone around this area.

(10:39):
Ohio State's massive is what isOhio State doing with their
athletes?
It doesn't matter, you knowthey got five star athletes.
So I'm not concerned about youknow, and I see a lot of high
school coaches trying to emulatewhat Ohio state does.
Well, that's why they're sogood now because they're
genetically gifted.
So we have.
I wanted to make somethingspecific for people that grew up
like me, and that's kind ofwhat I'm doing with the high

(11:01):
school is I want to make a bunchof average dudes ass kickers.
That's what it comes down to.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
One sometimes like that compliment you were talking
about, that gets you hooked.
You know, I mean let's.
Let's be honest.
You know some compliments whenyou're younger, in high school
or grade school, and people arelike are you doing?
You're looking, you're lookingswole.
You're like, oh, I'm going tokeep doing this, I don't know
what.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
I'm going to keep doing this.
I don't know what I'm going to.
And my parents put on like 10years ago or so, they put a
bunch of my old high schoolstuff on DVDs that they had on
DHS and one of them was one ofmy wrestling meets from junior
high.
So I put it in and I'm justwatching.
It's grainy and wobbly andstuff.
And I was just putting it inand I'm watching.

(11:42):
I'm like dude, who is this kid?
I mean traps are up to herewalking.
Yeah, no, that kid is jackedand it was me.
I kept I'm like, oh my god,that's me it was.
That was like because I never,you know, when you're you got
that body dysmorphia shit goingon when you're that age and uh,
but it's.
I realized like wow, what adifference it made.
I'm just happy I can pass thisshit down.

(12:04):
It it's so important I think.
But yeah, it's, the training islike the refuge of the average,
that's what it is.
And I'm sure you've seenprofessional, like high-end,
professional athletes train andyou're like, oh my God, oh boy,
oh, it's bad, it's bad.
I saw some guys train in person.
I was like oh boy.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Like, whatever, it doesn't matter.
Yeah, and talking aboutspeaking about, you know,
passing knowledge down, youspent some time at west side,
right, yeah, uh so I learnedwhen I was in college.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Uh, I saw an interview with louis.
Uh, this was at the oldtestosteronenet.
It turned into t-nation, buttestosterone was how it started
out.
And it was an interview withLouie and at that time I had
kind of hit like a road where Ididn't know.
I wanted to expand my trainingknowledge but I didn't want to
read random books becauseeverything I had read up to then

(12:56):
was kind of you try it out andlike, dude, no, there's no way,
this is right.
And I remember reading at theinterview with Louie he said if
you're explosive and fast, I canmake you strong.
Well, shit, I was explosive andfast, for you know, not saying
I was running a four, four, butI could jump high and all that
other stuff.
And so I'm like, well, who isthis guy?
This guy's bananas, you know.

(13:17):
And so I started looking intoit, I started playing around
with it a little bit with thetraining and then, long story
short, I ended up getting a jobat Elite FTS.
I got to know Dave Tate andthen so when I moved out here, I
was coaching at the Universityof Kentucky and I moved out to
Ohio and that's when I startedtraining at Westside and maybe

(13:39):
2003 or something.
But I had been very familiarwith what they were doing and I
had talked to Louie and Dave forseveral years prior to that.
So, yeah, it was an awesometime.
An awesome time.
My recollection of what it waslike to train at Westside is
very different than what I'veseen in videos and stuff like
that, because it was fun and itwas very much like, uh, how I'm

(14:05):
not saying it's very intense andstuff like that but it's just a
bunch of dudes who want to getstrong and they were busting
each other's balls and makingfun of each.
You know each other.
It wasn't like cutthroat, likeI've seen it.
Not saying you didn't try, butit wasn't like you know, I'm
gonna beat you up if you getthis.
It's like dude, come on, yousuck dude.
Time was a bunch of dudes justwanting to get strong.
It was.
For me, it was a lot of fun.

(14:26):
So I just want people to knowthat I don't.
I think a lot of the stuff yousee has kind of been glamorized
a little bit.
Not again, not saying that itwasn't intense, but it's a lot
different than what Iexperienced and, uh, like I got
to train with Chuck Vogel.
He's fucking hilarious.
He's a good dude, like everyoneyou know.
Not saying he's not intense,but he's just.
We had a great time together.

(14:47):
And do you know?

Speaker 1 (14:49):
I'm saying like I don't know if that, no, yeah, I
just to be just to be like,because you see the instagram,
you see the, the youtube shortsand things like that.
It's just like to be a fly onthe wall and to just rub elbows
with those people andeverybody's there for this
common goal, like, hey, let'sget stronger, yeah, let's get
stronger, let's, you know, let'sfind this.
Uh, because they do like theconger uh programming, yeah,

(15:11):
conjure programming, and likeit's like some of the cool
things you see and we're gonnatalk about some auxiliary lifts,
and like chains and rubberbands.
I was like, oh, this is, thisis bonkers man, it was fun a, it
was fun.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
There was rhyme and reason to some of it and at the
same time it was like dude, whatdo you want?
You want to try this Like eh,let's see what happens, we'll be
fine.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Throw a little caution to the wind.
Yeah, what are you going to do?

Speaker 2 (15:36):
So but yeah, I had to .
You know I got to do a ton ofseminars with Dave.
I got to do some seminars withLouie.
It was awesome, you know, andit's you know, I got the most
important like Louie, in all myyears of doing all this stuff.
Louie is the smartest man inregards to training and I don't
say that lightly because I'vemet some really smart, good

(15:57):
coaches, but it's just overalltraining, knowledge and
creativity, louie.
Training, knowledge andcreativity, louis, 100%, 100%.
And the one thing I think needsto be said is you've got to
speak, louis.
You have to learn Louis andwhat he's trying to say and what
he is saying to understand allof it.
I don't know if that, becausehe can say all this stuff and

(16:20):
you're like what is he talkingabout?
But if you take a step back,you're like, oh, okay, and it's
not as easy, I guess, tointerpret sometimes.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
But if you understand .

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Louie, you can and I'll tell you this Louie's one
of the funniest dudes I've evermet.
I mean fucking, hilarious, likegood dude.
That's the other.
I just wish people would knowthat side of Lou.
I really did.
It's just incredibly witty.
And so and I'll tell you whatthe other thing is.
Uh, when I was coaching at, Iwas doing my uh, graduate

(16:53):
assistant stuff at Kentucky, andI got got to know Lou and Dave
and you know I was not makingany money being an intern, ga,
whatever, and Louie found waysfor me to make money Like hey,
can you do this for me?
And I get a check for athousand bucks.
And when you're fucking poor asshit man, I was making $800 a

(17:14):
month.
That's huge.
I mean I got food, and so himand Dave both offered me
lifelines when I really reallyneeded it.
I mean really needed it.
So I'm internally grateful.
I mean Dave, he is in here, youknow, in town here, and we
still keep in touch, and so I'mjust I was very lucky to meet

(17:35):
both those guys, you know, sovery, very blessed.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
It's always great to just hear like good things about
people and just know, knowthey're, they're still amazing
people, people that got yourback in this world and and just
to have that amazing experienceand and just live that that's.
That's such a cool, cool timeof your life.
That's awesome.
This, this 531 program, right,and we're talking about all this
different information, allthese different training styles

(18:02):
and everything.
Uh, for the listeners, you know, if you're just just a big
broad stroke, for some thatmight not know like what is the
five, three, one program andlike who's it really for?

Speaker 2 (18:13):
So the reason why I wrote that was is twofold, but
if I'm going to look back, Iwish I had something like that
when I was growing up and whenit was.
It's for people who maybe don'tknow a ton about training.
My audience is not people likeyou, like business professionals
in this business.

(18:33):
My audience and most people'saudience are regular dudes.
They have jobs outside of thisand I.
They just need to be told whatto do and that's all it came
down to just and I've alwaysbeen one of those guys just tell
me what to do.
I don't care what it is.
If I need to climb this fuckinghill and kill 10 people up
there, fine, I don't need toknow the why's.

(18:53):
We talked about this before.
Just tell me what to do, let medo it.
And so I wanted to do somethingwhere the numbers were on paper
.
You just looked at it and justdid it, and I love
non-negotiable training.
I don't want to have to thinktoo much, and that's one of the
things that you got to be reallygood at.
The more advanced you get and Igot really good at that the

(19:14):
last two years of powerlifting,I think I was at the peak of my
advanced training.
Like I understood exactly whatweights needed to be what I
needed to do, and it was awesome.
But the majority of peoplearen't there.
Like you can't just say, likeyou figure it out, and that's
why I started.
That was like listen, here'syour numbers, this is what you
want to do.
Here's some.

(19:34):
You can have some variations onthe assistance.
That's fine.
Like you can kind of decidethat.
But for this main stuff, this iswhat you're going to do.
Go out there and kick ass andthat's pretty much what it's for
.
It's for people and it doesn'tmatter.
We use it with the footballteam.
Obviously you can use it.
If you're an MMA fighter, youcan always alter it based on

(19:54):
what you're doing.
Now you have to make somechanges.
I totally get that.
But it's for anyone that needsto get stronger and does other
stuff too.
That's the other thing.
It's not just lifting weights.
You know whether it's stressorsfrom your home or work or if
you're like a first responder orif you're in the military and
you've got to run and do those.
That's why I developed it wasfor people who wanted to get

(20:16):
strong but was also doing otherthings and just needed to be,
like, told exactly what to do,so that's pretty much how it
started.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, Just you always emphasize, like the simplicity
of the program.
You know, why do you think somany people overcomplicate
training so much or like are allover the place of I'm going to
do the nine week this and like afive week that, why do you
think people are just alwaysjumping?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
around.
I think, well, I went throughthat too.
Uh, I think once you get pastlike the first couple months,
you start reading a ton and youhave information overload.
Even when I was growing up Ididn't it wasn't privy to all
the information there is and Istill was like going everywhere.
So I think it's just, you'rejust trying to find your way.

(21:00):
I think it's.
The other thing is I think it'sfun.
The other thing that I don't.
If you keep like the basics ofyour training in it, you can
vary a lot.
I know I'm saying now, if yougo from like a Olympic lifting
program to a bodybuildingprogram, that's going to be a
little different.
But if you know, as long asyou're squatting and squatting
hard and benching and buildingmuscle, maybe it doesn't matter

(21:23):
as much as we like to think.
The problem is the one and I'vewent through this many times
and I look back in my life themore options I had, the least,
the less project progress I made.
And I think there's somethingwith brain power and body power

(21:44):
or, you know, effort, where, ifyou're just told X, y and Z,
sometimes those get you the bestresults because you're not
worrying about all the otherstuff.
So, but I think everyone needs,especially once you get past,
like, the first couple of years.
That's when you start doing allthe crazy shit, like I'm going
to do boards and weightreleasers and reverse band and
double bands and chains all atthe same time.

(22:04):
We're doing everything, uh, so,but that's, you know.
One of the good things I liketraining with the high school
kids is like I have control overthe weights they put on the bar
, the exercises they do, and Ican get them to avoid all the
dumb shit that, uh, you knowthat I did.
You know.
The other thing too is, uh, asa coach, you have to understand

(22:25):
that no one likes training morethan you.
There's not a single kid thatcares that much.
And that's another thing I youknow.
With coaches, you're like, whydon't you, you know, study the
ankle mobility of the Olympiclifts?
Like, I don't care, like justdo I got a squad or not?
What do I got to do?
And I think that's important toknow is, the kids don't care as
much as you do, and that's fine.
Then you have to alter yourtraining or your program a

(22:48):
little bit to make up for that,and uh, that's, that was
something I learned a long timeago, but it was like an eye
opener for me.
Like the people you work withgenerally don't love training as
much as you.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, I tell the high school kids and even clients
too.
I'm just like we got to getreally.
You got to be brilliant at thebasics, I feel like.
I'm just a broken record sayingthat and I've even got it on
slides for, like our summerstrength and conditioning.
I'm just getting slides readyfor that and I'm like just we
need to be brilliant at thebasics, like if I'm going to be
a piano player or whatever I gotto.
You know, I got to play thepiano Once I get some basic

(23:25):
music fundamentals down.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Like if I want to go for the clarinet for a little
bit cool, but like I got to knowthe notes right, so well one of
the things I'd stress to Mikethe kids in the school and I
said every high school programsquats, benches, you know, does
some kind of pulling movement,whether it's trap, bar, power
cleans.
I'm like the only thing thatseparates us from everyone else
is we just do it better thaneveryone.

(23:48):
Our standards are higher, oureffort is greater, our
consistency is better, that's it.
And so when I, you know, I geta ton of messages from high
school coaches and stuff likewhat are you guys doing?
And then I show them.
They're like that's it.
I'm like, yeah, that's it.
We do one main lift a day andwe do two to three assistance
movements and then we go out andrun, that's it.
And we do some jumping andstuff like that.

(24:08):
But every time it's like, well,we did squats, we did overhead
press, we did rows and then wewent out and ran.
What, yeah, yeah?
But we do it because we have ajunior high program my wife runs
that starts in seventh grade.
We have six years with thesekids, so we just the way I look
at it is, if we are consistentand we train, usually 50 weeks

(24:29):
out of the year, and we're inthere, no matter what, I don't
have to kill these kids.
We don't have to load the barterribly heavy.
Just come in.
You know you can.
I'd love for you to work reallyhard, but if you just want to
have a good day, that's fine too, and we just stack good days on
good days and that's why we'reable to not do a ton Like we run
year round.
The only time we don't run isduring the season, during

(24:51):
practice.
We don't do any conditioningbecause the kids run from the
day that the last game is played.
The next week we come in we'realready running.
We're never out of shape, so wenever have to have like a
conditioning period ever.
So our kids don't have to golike the last four weeks before
camp within everyone's running aton.
Our kids are fine, they're youknow and you know.

(25:12):
The other thing I'm going to gooff on the track here is uh,
after the last week, after thefirst season, I was there.
I didn't do any of the strengthtraining stuff and I told the
coach, the head coach, just letme do it all, just I'll do
everything you don't have,because he was doing all the
training and so I started doingit during.
It was like the first two weeksof the new off season and we

(25:32):
had won three games.
It was a horrible season.
And the coach asked me he'slike and I didn't know him, like
I know him now, you know, we'rereally good friends.
He's like hey, uh, what do youthink we should change here?

Speaker 1 (25:45):
and I was like hey, cut is kyle cutler.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
I was like how, uh, how honest, do you want me to be
bud?
He's like just give it to me.
And I was like this, this, this, this, this, and we changed
everything was the georgecostanza moment of my life, like
we just did the opposite ofevery.
Everything we did.
We cut out two days.
We did all this other stuff wecut out and we simplified our
offense and defense to thedegree it's comical, because the

(26:11):
kids aren't Bill Belichick,listen.
You just got this gap.
All you got to worry about isthis gap.
And then, if we call this, thenyou just worry about this gap.
That's all you have to do, kid.
Just worry about this gap.
That's all you have to do, kid.
So it was an awesome lesson inthings that we learned when we
were kids and football playersand what we needed to keep and

(26:32):
what we needed to throw away.
That's not just because that'swhat we did before and so we
threw a lot of stuff like why dowe do this?
I don't know.
Let's not do it anymore becauseI don't think it's smart.
So I always call it.
You don't have to honor everyghost.
You know all those things thatyou used to do.
I got a message from some guywho got mad because we don't do
two-a-days.
You're not developing spirit.

(26:53):
I'm like whatever you get intwo-a-days, we get year-round
because we never miss days, youknow.
You know, I'm just like that,that hard work and consistency,
because we don't need to, we'realready in good shape.
Our kids are always doing skillwork.
You know, at least twice a weekwhere the you know they go out
and walk through plays and stuff.
So by the time the season rollsaround they've run, you know

(27:15):
student body right 5 billiontimes like they know what's
going on.
So I don't know it's.
It's been the best experienceof my life being here, because I
got to be part of somethingthat is like exactly my dream of
a football team, of what, whatis expected out of the kids.
We play the game Like we don'tpass the ball.
We probably pass the ball twicea game.

(27:35):
The crowd goes bananas when wepass the ball, but we will rush.
I mean we had one year werushed for like 500 yards a game
and we they probably didn'tplay a starter in the fourth
quarter the entire year.
I mean, just run this shit outof the ball and we are good and
like you see, our linemen,they're five 10, one, 85 coming
out there the fucking knocky ontheir head they will.

(27:55):
You know there's a stronger andbetter.
That's it and it's.
It's pretty amazing watchingthat.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
So I know I'm blabbing on but it's been
awesome to be part of somethingthat's bigger than me and I see
our kids succeed.
I love, I love it, I love youknow, in that, going back to
that, the person's like we can'tbelieve we don't do two days
like because more sometimesisn't better.

(28:22):
No, this is what I tell peoplemore isn't better, better is
better so for our kids.
You know, for athletes, whomeit's not just dumping things on.
Like any coach and any trainercan crush you, like they can
totally crush you.
Fine, great, you're on thefloor at the end and you can't
breathe anymore.

(28:43):
What the hell?
How does that help me, you know?
And they have that mentality.
I got to push through, you gotto do this, you got to do that.
You got to like be crawling outof the gym like that's just
going to hinder you, like let's,let's do the things that make
us better, and breaking you down.
And you said this earlier and Iwanted to get to it, but you
just, if you want to touch uponit, stacking wins, stacking wins

(29:05):
.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, when you're working with young people, we
can go into this.
But a lot of the kids will comein.
They're not remotely fullydeveloped adults, right?
Obviously they're young kidsand a lot of them they haven't
had maybe much success in theirlife.
I'm not saying that it's OliverTwist or anything like that,

(29:31):
but I want them because trainingto me, is more than just
getting bigger and gettingstronger.
It's developing confidence toattack the world, so to speak.
You know, shoulders back, headup kind of thing when young men
and I assume this goes for womenI got two boys, so but when we,
when you allow a young man toaccomplish something physically
that they didn't think theycould do and it's not like big,
it's not like, listen, you gotto go through hell week, buddy.

(29:52):
It's listen, we're going to youbenched a hundred pounds, holy
shit, look at all that work youput in Congratulations, and now,
instead of having their headdown, it's a little higher.
And then the next week you sayI bet you, I know you can squat
the dumbbell, squat 50 poundsfor 15 reps.
It's like, oh man, I've onlydone 40 for 10.
I think you can do it and youalways give them tasks that you

(30:13):
know they can accomplish butthey don't know.
I constantly give kids like,listen, I bet you can get 12
here, what?
And you're like, dude, you canprobably get 30.
I'll be honest, but let's justget 12.
And I just want them to stackgood physical accomplishments
and challenges day after day.
Now they're not like I said,it's not like running a marathon
.
It's little stuff and obviouslyit's not going to happen every

(30:36):
day.
But you try to get somethingdone with each kid, as much as
possible, and all of a suddenthat confidence starts building
right, the self-esteem getsbetter.
So I'm not giving them hollowbullshit like, oh, you're the
best, no, you know what.
You prove that you have thework ethic and the attitude to
go from point A to point Z.
Look, look at all the thingsyou've done.

(30:57):
I have a kid right now who hasnever played a sport in his life
, never played football, nevertrained.
He works his ass off.
I don't know if he's ever goingto see the field, but he could
barely bench the barbell.
All right, he did like 135 forlike 12 reps and he was able to
finally squat with a barbell.
I mean, he pushed that set sohard and he's like he's

(31:20):
determined to get better and Ithink last, last week, so he's
probably been there maybe 10weeks the last week and he's
over overweight.
I saw him during the day and Iwas first time show.
His trap started coming in alittle bit.
He's not like going to take offhis shirt and like impress
anyone, but he looked differentand I was like dude, look at you

(31:40):
like an attack on the world.
I love it.
And you know he's like yeah,yeah, and his attitude already
changed.
Like that's how you buildself-esteem, that's how you set
young men up for success in allareas of life.
You give them challenges, letthem accomplish them, and then
you do it again and again andagain and again.
And I'm tired of people sayingto build self-esteem, you just
got to tell them they're great.

(32:00):
No, they have to fucking proveit day in and day out that
they're great.
And in regards to, like thetrainers smoking guys, I always
love it, because everyone looksto the Navy SEALs, right, hell,
weak and buds.
Everyone gets hurt, everyonedoes, even the guys that passed.
They all got shins splint theirshoulders, all fucked up their
chafe.
And our kids aren't Navy SEALs,they're not even close to it.

(32:21):
So why would I give them a taskto do that they can't
accomplish.
And I mean their fail rate iswhat?
Like probably 85 percent, likewhat, what?
What world do you live in?
And those guys are the cream ofthe crop.
So even the guys that getdropped for whatever reason
whether it's injury they'restill studs.
My kids aren't even close tothat, so I wouldn't expect them

(32:42):
to do that.
And the other thing is whenyou're coach, I coach 60 kids at
once, so it's chaos sometimes.
The kids these days are not.
They have such a low GPP levelfrom when I was growing up and
I'm not here to down them.
It's not their fault, but Ican't expect them to train and

(33:03):
do the same stuff I did.
You know I'm 50 years old, sothat was a serious eye opener
for me was I saw how low theirgeneral fitness level is.
So it was well, either Icomplain about it or I do
something about it.
So we had to weather everythingdown because I needed these
kids to train consistently.
If I'm burning the boats allthe time, they're never going to

(33:24):
want to come back ever.
So I tell the kids listen all Igive me, give me an hour, just
give me an hour.
We'll get you out of here.
I got a standing ovation when I,when I first addressed the team
, like this is what I expect outof you guys get you in and out
of here an hour.
Just give me a good effort.
I don't want to.
Don't, just do what I tell youto do, everything will be good.
The kids all stood upno-transcript, and I was like,

(34:12):
wow, these kids put a lot oftrust in me.
And that first game we had lostto that team the year prior and
I was warming up the kids, Ialmost puked like a dozen times
because I'm like these kids workso hard.
What a kick in the nuts.
It would be Steamrolled.
This team.
I mean everything we did.

(34:32):
Just and this is before we evenknew who we were.
Like the kids had no idea and Iremember one of the kids
running off the field.
He's like these guys don'tsquat, you know, but it was it.
Now I have, I have enoughbackground now with working with
the team.
Where the kids are, they like,listen, I'll just do whatever
you tell me.
But back then, you know, we hada super group of kids who were
willing to give me their trustand stuff, and so that first
senior class.

(34:53):
I give them a ton of credit.
They're the ones that changedthis entire program.
They really did, and they hadno reason to trust me, like
who's this tattooed idiot that'scoming in thinking he knows how
to train people, you know?
So I still keep in touch with alot of those kids too.
So, it's, it's been good.
I still keep in touch with alot of those kids too.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
So it's it's been good Having having a mentor,
having a coach, like it's.
It's super impactful and youknow, and you spend a lot of
that, you spend more time withthose kids than they do
sometimes with their parents.
Right, they're at school allday.
You might see them at school orwhatever.
If you're in the building, yousee them at practice day to day,
you see him on the weekends,you see him off season.
So it's like it's somethingthat is overlooked and I just

(35:33):
hate that.
Kids are getting out ofathletics.
I think there is a little bitof a decline.
It's getting too elite.
Kids don't want to do itanymore.
There's a big drop off at thathigh school level.
But it's so good to have amentor and a coach.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
And to how Louie was to you, you are to these kids,
which is awesome, yeah.
And you know, the other thing Itell coaches is like I want the
kids to want to come in, I wantthem to like, and I'm I've
probably yelled six times sinceI've been there uh, so I'm not
going to get on you a little bit.
I mean, obviously I'm going toencourage you, but I'm not going
to be like you, piece of shit.
What, what do you think I'mlike?
No, like, if you don't want togive the effort, that's fine.

(36:14):
Like I got 59 other kids inhere.
But I also, like we said, I'mnot going to smoke you every day
.
Like you know, you're going tocome in, you're, everyone's
getting.
Like I always say like we do afull, uh, so on days that we
squat, we'll also do upper body.
But my big thing is these kidsare just need to build muscle.
Like everyone wants to get allthis.
Like our kids got no muscle.

(36:34):
So I'm a big fan of boyd epley,the the godfather of strength
training for football and hismain focus.
This is boyd epley.
If his main focus is as basicas building muscle for his stud
athletes at nebraska, then what?
What am I doing?
Trying to develop like the oneleg.
You know, bosu, hop.
No, we just need a little jack.
So I always tell the kids, like,listen, after we squat,

(36:57):
everyone's getting jacked today.
And then the kids, they just,and our kids are all bigger than
everyone else, they're as bigas they're going to get.
I should say, you know, they'renot like bodybuilders, but all
our kids got traps, all our kidsgot butts, got big arms,
shoulders, and, uh, the kidslike to do that stuff.
So I'm like, listen, we need todo it anyway, let's just have
some fun and do it.
So it's not all super specificsports, we're just getting

(37:21):
stronger, building muscle,jumping and running, that's all
it comes down to.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
And uh, so yeah, and that sports, and you mentioned
sports specific training.
You know thoughts on that, youknow well, there's.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
There's a couple of things.
One again we're dealing withvery low general physical
preparedness and I answerquestions on this every single
day.
It's like I got a 13 year oldgirl who lacks acceleration.
Her first step is slow.
I'm like, well, how manypull-ups can she do?
She can't do any.
Can she squat without her kneescoming in?

(37:57):
No, no, no, no, we don't dothat.
It's like well, let's do thebasic stuff first.
Let's just build some muscle,get her a little stronger.
She's not going to look likeArnold Schwarzenegger after six
months.
The other thing is I saw a very,very big time high school I'm
not going to name it, thefacilities would blow your mind.
I watched them train and it wasall sports specific stuff and

(38:19):
it was horrible.
Even like that, the, thetechnique and stuff.
Like I'd be like, dude, if you,if a kid, did that in our
weight room, the kids wouldlaugh them out of there, like
what the fuck are you doing Ourkid, not me, them they would.
And then I looked around, theygot like, you know, 10 or 15
kids are going D1.
I'm like, well, that's why itdoesn't matter, it does.
It matters more for us than itdoes for them.

(38:40):
And the other thing is likeyou'll see elite sprinters and
I've seen some crazy shit beingdone at the same time and I'm
sure you know if they've hadsuccess fine.
But at the same time, oh my God, I can't believe I just dropped
the ball on this.
Who's the great sprint coachfor Ben Johnson?
Oh my God, I can't believe Ijust dropped the ball.
Famous sprint coach he coachedBen Johnson from Canada, charlie

(39:05):
Francis.
He just did squats, benches andlike lat pulldowns.
He's like strength is justgeneral.
We'll worry about the otherstuff when we're on the field or
you know, on the track, so tospeak.
And I was like, wow, if CharlieFrancis is doing it and there
was elite level sprinters, thenwhat am I trying to do?

(39:26):
And what I've noticed too, isif I get our kids strong.
Now, there's a couple of thingswith this.
Is we never trained very heavy.
You would laugh your ass off athow light our kids train,
because every rep is awesome.
Every rep is awesome.
As an example, we got a kid.
Yet two weeks ago, when he doeshis trap bar work, his weights
weighed from 225, 245, and 265.

(39:48):
He's done that for, I think, 10weeks.
That's the only weights he'stouched.
We worked up, he pulled 365 for10.
He came up to me First of allhe's like thank you, coach,
because he's one of those kidslike if you tell him, listen, do
145 for 80 reps, I'll just doit.
Whatever, he'll do it.
And he came up, said thank youso much because he couldn't

(40:08):
believe he pulled 365 for 10.
And he goes.
I don't understand why it works,but when you just do crisp reps
all the time, you get strongerand we're never burnt out.
The kids' backs are never tired, they're never terribly sore,
especially in their lower body.
But where was I going with this?
So we get them strong, we putsome muscle on them and if we

(40:33):
did sports specific stuff they'dbe fine, cause it's a lot of
that.
Stuff is just learning to do thecrazy movement, right.
But you can't take a kid who'sdone all these crazy movements
and put 365 on the bar and dosay pull 10 reps.
One has a carry over to theother.
I learned that from Dave Tate,you know.
Remember that squatting on aBosu ball was a thing.
Yeah, you can teach that toChuck Vogel, right, it may take

(40:54):
a few sessions like that, buthe'd get it down.
But you can't take that sameguy and put you know 1200 pounds
on his back and expect them tosquat it.
So one thing has a carry overto the other.
That doesn't mean I'm like justFrankenstein when I, you know,
like just, but at the same timelike if you are, you know, 25%
body fat and you weigh 165pounds.

(41:14):
What are we doing?
Let's get a little leaner.
Let's put some muscle on.
Let's get you a little stronger.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Let's get you to squat 225.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Well, that'd be nice.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
Uh, so I know, I know I'm just blabbing.
The most thing is the moreaverage you are, more below
average you are.
I can train hard, be consistent, give effort, you'll be fine.
And again, you're not going togo to the NFL.
You know, like one of myfavorite things I ever heard,
how do I increase my verticaljump?
And a guy I know said get newparents.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
That's a good one.
I'm using that.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
I mean that's you know.
I'm sure you see it all thetime.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
You got parents who think their kid's gonna go here
and here and from fifth gradealready planning, planning on
them going to division one andgetting a scholarship.
For I told the parent the otherday we played badminton and I'm
like, hey, uh, your kid won ourlike pe class badman tournament
or whatever, and then they getto play me at the end I just

(42:15):
smoke them, you know uh.
But the parents of the dadlooks at me, goes badman, he
told me about that, that he did.
Really, I'm like he's got justa touch for it, right.
And uh, he's like is there any,uh, college money?
In that I, I was just like Idon't think so, man, I don't
know, I don't know any badminton, although I just say it's all.

(42:35):
It was a boy who won, but itwas.
I just say it's all femalebadminton, that's all I know of.
I don't think it is a boy sport.
Yeah, I don't know If there'sany college badminton.
I have no idea that's, I haveno idea, but immediately goes to
any college money.
In that I was like I don't know, maybe, maybe on the

(42:55):
international circuit buddy.
But yeah, the high expectations,the unfortunately and I just
had this conversation and otherpodcasts shout out Nate Nikki
for the let's talk strengthpodcast we had Angelo Gingere
leon and he is the strengthcoach at seton hall.
He wrote this book, called that.
The book's called the next fouryears and getting kids prepared

(43:17):
and what's expected of likenavigating college and getting
into college.
And he's like why the hell andwe like clipped it.
It was like a great clip.
Why the hell am I?
Am I trying to get a kid to doa one-arm, uh, uh, bench press
on a bosew ball when they can'teven do a one push-up?

(43:38):
Yeah, he's like I got aau kids,basketball kids that are coming
in and they cannot do a lunge.
He's like this is a realproblem.
They might be really great atbasketball, but like they can't
even do a lunge.
He's like this is a realproblem.
They might be really great atbasketball, but like they can't
even do a lunge.
He's like that's just gonnacompound and athletes are the
best at compensating over time.

(43:59):
It doesn't show during gameplay, but if you ask them to do a
movement screener, ask them todo a lunge, it doesn't look
right and like that's that'sjust going to lead to injury.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, it's all SPP and no GBP.
Yeah, and the other thing I youknow I would love if I had that
same kind of control over, likea professional baseball team,
if it never happened.
But I thought about thisbaseball.
Professional baseball isessentially in season training
year round and I'm like I betyou I give me those guys two
days a week and we'll take careof all the issues.

(44:32):
Uh, because it doesn't take.
Like, when people think oftraining, if there's still
coaches here at the high school,uh are three and two and three
sport athletes who freak outthat the kids trained.
I was like what do you thinkwe're doing up here?
Do you think we're uh doinglike 30, 30 sets of 10 on the
squat, like we're doingexplosive reps?
We're doing some very basicstuff and then we're leaving.

(44:52):
And I think when people thinklike when, like, for example,
the basketball players, theythink of training is going to
smoke them, it doesn't, itdoesn't have to be like that we
can make great progress withoutkilling you.
And I think that's everyonethinks it's just bodybuilding or
something, I don't know.
You know that kind of where youwalk out of the weight room

(45:14):
like Tom Platt's and your legsare shaking like that's not
going to happen, I mean, unlessyou do something stupid.
But for the most part, a goodcoach won't let that happen.
So, but it's, you know.
At the other thing, it's anotherthing why genetics rule.
I mean, if you're six, six,seven and can run like the wind
and you dunk a basketball, sinceyou're like a you know freshman

(45:35):
in high school, I mean, who amI to tell these guys how to
train?
I hate to say that, but at thesame time, uh, I remember dave
tate talking about that, whenlouis would get critical about
how professional athletes train.
You know football players, andit's like they've, they're
making millions of dollars doingwhat they've been doing.
What are you going to tell them?
Like they've obviously hadsuccess?

(45:55):
Uh, not saying that that's theright thing.
But you know, who would youlisten to if you just signed a
you know $55 million contractLike, well, whatever I've been
doing has been working prettywell.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
So it's like a nutritionist trying to talk to
chad chad ocho.
The guy eats mcdonald's everyday, you know.
And he's like what are yougonna tell him?
You know, you got to eatcleaner.
It's like yeah, I'm, I'm good Ilove his.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
His reasoning is that's why everyone gets hurt
they eat too healthy.
Yeah, right, exactly.
It's like you need thosechemicals in your body to keep
it strong.
Like well, whatever, I don'tcare, like I see it with like dk
metcalf he doesn't eat verywell and the guy's actually tons
of muscle on him and again,like, welcome to the world of
genetics.
You know, I wrote an article andI did a video, and I wrote an

(46:43):
article about this on my forum,about the biggest mistake I made
when I was playing collegefootball was and even in high
school was I saw the big timestars.
You know that were big runningbacks who were like 5'10", 235,
245, and they could run like thewind.
And I thought, well, shit, Ijust got to get that big.
I got that big and I washorribly out of shape and I

(47:06):
couldn't move very well.
And I wish someone would havetold me you, not him you just
got to be the best version ofyou you can be, and if that
means you're 205, 210 pounds, sobe it.
Screw it.
Always comparing yourself to thefreaks is going to ruin you.
It'll ruin your it'll, it'llsabotage your training or your,
your sports career.
Just be the best awesomeversion of yourself that you can

(47:28):
be.
Uh, so I came up with like aformula like, based on your
height, like of the guys thatI've been around for the last 30
years, what I call averagedudes what's approximately the
body the least and most bodyweight you should have if you
want to be super strong and verywell conditioned?
And people got a little upsetlike, well, I'm, I'm way over

(47:48):
that.
I'm like, yeah, but can you runconsecutive six minute miles?
well, no, well then, you're alittle upset Like, well, I'm,
I'm way over that.
I'm like, yeah, but can you runconsecutive six minute miles?
Well, no, well then you're alittle too chunky and it's, it's
okay.
I'm not telling you you have tolook like you have to be that,
but if you were an average guylike, these are generally the
weights you should be around Ifyou want to be.
You know, still not sayingyou're going to bench 500 pounds
, but you know if you want to bean awesome average guy.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
That's pretty much what it comes down to.
I mean, you look at gymnastics,right, weight's a weight's a
factor, you know, for the menand for the females.
You know boxing, wrestling.
You know it's all going to becontention on your kind of your
body fat and your outcome ofyour performance.
So it's a it's a thing you gotto talk about because it it,
because it does matter.
You have to have thoseconversations.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
You know, the other crazy thing is I saw a guy did a
study on guys that passed thespecial operator stuff for, like
the Air Force, the Navy, youknow, the Rangers and SF units
as well as like CrossFit, andthe people that had the highest
outcomes had the most musclemass.
That was the greatestdetermined.
Granted, you still had to runand do all this other stuff, but
muscle mass was super important.
And I was like, oh my god, soit doesn't matter if you're a

(48:59):
combat controller, ass kicker inthe air force or if you're a
crossfit like that's howimportant muscle mass was and I
it was.
It was like a.
You know, here I am at my agethinking like we got to do this
and that.
And I realized that when I wasgrowing up, people had more
muscle on them when they enteredhigh school and started
training.
Just because their overall GPPwas higher, they could do

(49:20):
pull-ups.
If you get a kid now in seventhgrade to be able to do a pull-up
, you're like, hell yeah, man,hell yeah, my wife handles all
that stuff.
She's like it is unbelievable.
We had a kid who had troublegetting off the ground in sixth
grade.
Like it was.
Like you know, I was like, ohmy God, and there's more to that
stuff.
Like I think it's importantregardless if you're a, you know

(49:42):
, a young man or young womanimportant to be healthy when
you're a young age.
It sets you up for a lifetimeof not just health, but it's
just like you interact sociallybetter when you're not terribly
obese.
And I also think at a young age, once you set your body's
homeostasis for being overweight, it's going to stay there for a
long time unless you have todiet.

(50:03):
And then you see people who areoverweight for the large chunk
of their life and they get ingreat shape.
That's all they.
That's diet and food is whattheir life revolves around.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah, case in point myself.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Yeah, it's tough and uh like, then it becomes and
it's, it's awesome, but right,it's, it becomes such a big part
of your life.
I don't eat like and this isnot me Like I have to watch what
I eat now, but I had like 46good years, just whatever, I'll
be fine, not saying I was theleanest dude in the world, but I
never thought about it.
So that's how much I think justdoing working with young kids

(50:39):
is so important.
It really is, because it setsthem up for a lifetime of
achievement.
And the other thing like myoldest son and youngest son both
play sports.
They're never going to becollege athletes I don't think,
you know.
Or my oldest son's in college,he's not playing sports or
anything.
But I'm like I look at sports asa way like let's extract what

(51:00):
we can from the sports to helpyou out later in life.
I don't care if you play in theNFL, I don't even care how much
you play, I don't care.
Like I want you to be part of ateam, I want you to be able to
work through some tough times.
And it's funny, like I seesports is like, uh, let's just
it's going to build you as ahuman being and not to build my
bank account, and I thinkthere's a big difference in

(51:20):
those.
You know, parents, I'll fuckingpay for college, screw it,
we're.
You know, we'll take out someloans or whatever we need to do
if you want to go.
So, uh, I just wish you knowsee so many parents like not
just living through their kidsbut like using them as piggy
banks.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Sometimes it's just sad to me yeah, you know, and
it's about building thecharacter, right, like at the
end of the day that's.
You know, sometimes nobody'sgoing to remember the wins and
the losses and who placed thisin this conference or whatever,
but it's like I remember thatkid, I remember that coach, I
remember that team, right,that's, that's the biggest thing

(51:56):
.
And I think I you've even saidsome stories.
I think I heard a podcast of,like, other coaches coming
across, you know, shaking yourhand and be like hey, man, you
kicked our butts.
Like what do you guys?
What are you guys doing?
Like this is this.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
You know that was that was a weird moment in my
life where the other coach cameacross and the year prior this
team kicked our ass and we wentin.
I love this story.
Our quarterback got hurt theweek before, so we had no backup
quarterback, none.
So we put a wide receiver inthis first time.
He's put in his hands for thefirst time in his life on some

(52:29):
dude's grundle.
You know.
He's like oh shit, and so, uh,you know he's got to run.
We run a wing t offense andit's not like he's throwing,
throwing a lot.
But you got to do all thesefakes, whatever, and we ended up
winning.
The game was like 75 to nothingor something stupid.
We scored a touchdown with nineguys on offense, like we had
some kind of whatever, and thecoach came across.

(52:51):
Their head of strength coachcame across the field and said I
got to ask you what the hell doyou guys do?
And I said this was like Ididn't think about it.
He's like I said my goal is tomake my average guy kick your
average guy's ass all over thefield, that's it.
And he's like holy cow.

(53:14):
And then he told me I'd lovethis story.
He's like do you guys have goodfacilities?
I'm like well, our kids raiseall the money for every piece of
equipment we've had in thatweight room.
Our kids raise it selling mulch.
That's how you know.
We live in a rural area.
Every year we do a mulch sale.
They're dropping bags off rightnow as I speak and he said we
can't call our training facilitya weight room because it's.
They said it's a uh, it'sintimidating to the other
students and faculty, so wecan't call it a weight room.

(53:35):
And we have two squat racks inour weight room.
They won't.
They have to have all machinesso it's not intimidating.
And I was like dude, unlessthat changes, like you're, what
are you going to train 30 groups?
Like?
you know and uh.
So that's another reason I'msuper thankful, like all we have
all power racks, dumbbells andbarbells.
That's all we have really inour weight room, just because we

(53:56):
don't have a ton of space.
I mean it's awesome we got 16full racks in there and a ton of
dumbbells, so uh, but that waslike a real eye-opener.
I was like holy cow, we're justgonna be awesome.
Average guys are gonna kick ass, you know.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
So that's good and I want to end kind of with the one
question I wanted to.
I know we went left and right.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Yeah, I know, listen if you've got any more questions
, I'll answer them.
I got, you know, oh no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
This, this is awesome .
No, I just want to kind oftouch upon this one thing before
we wrap up is you know, in theinception of the 5-3-1, as
you're putting this out there,you know, as you're living it

(54:42):
and coaching it what any changesthat have occurred over that
time?
And then what's something thatyou see the most common mistakes
people make when they're tryingto implement it All?

Speaker 2 (54:48):
right.
So the thing that I've changedquite a bit was I lowered our
training maxes.
I always said 90%.
We go uh, I don't really use uhpercentages so anymore like for
their training max, I just baseit on bar speed.
If I kids, if I see a weight, Iknow what it should look like,
whatever.
But I would probably say, uh,on the squat and the deadlift

(55:11):
our training max is probably 75%.
It's, it's low, it is super low.
Uh, and I know people don'tbelieve it Like how can you get
strong?
I don't know.
I don't understand how it works, because I we will stay at the
same training max.
This is going to bought.
Know how they like every weekwe do a little bit better, right

(55:32):
?
Yeah, five pounds.
No we stay at the same basicweights for eight, 12 weeks.
I don't know why it works.
Then we we test kids, smokestuff.
I mean we had a kid who's aheaviest weight on the bench was
one 95.
We just, you know, did what wedid.
It goes in bench two, 25 or 14reps.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
And so that's one.
We lower the training max.
Every rep is perfect, every repis perfect.
Uh, and I don't get overzealous, like if a kid really like the
kid that did 225 for 14, Ididn't adjust his training max
to account for that, we justwent up a little bit, all right.
So that's number one.
Number two is and this isbecause all the time working
with the young kids, we bomb theassistance work.

(56:15):
So we want good, fast reps onthe barbell.
I want competent reps.
I want standards super high.
I want competent reps, I wantstandards super high.
And I don't want my kidsexhausted after the, you know,
after the main lifts.
I want, you know you understandwhat I'm saying.
It's not we want the.
The assistance is where we getbig and that's where we start
going stuff to failure, becausethere's less of a chance of

(56:35):
getting hurt.
You're not going to get smokedafter doing barbell curls to
failure, right?
You will if you're squatting tofailure for several sets.
So that's where we build ourmuscle.
So that's the other thing.
I used to be all about the mainlifts and like everything else
is like that's the steak and thepotatoes for me back in the day
.
Now it's just part of what wedo.

(56:56):
So we have explosive reps inthe barbell.
We bodybuild the assistance.
The other thing I found out, andI don't know why this happened
we do very little lower bodywork outside of like hamstring,
like rdl, kettlebell, dumbbell,snatch kind of stuff.
We squat and we trap bar.
We do some dumbbell squats, butwe don't do a lot of lower body

(57:19):
loading and I have found thethat I do the stronger the kids
get and the better they performon the field.
I don't know if that's aproduct of these kids just have
low GPP and that's what they canhandle.
I don't know.
It's because we do, we alwaysare jumping every day, uh, or
we're running every day, but wealso push the prowler every
single Friday.
So that may have something todo with cause.

(57:39):
That's a.
I mean, it's our prowlerworkouts suck Again.
I don't want the kids to throwup.
I will adjust rest times, butit is.
You will do hard work on Friday.
Everyone knows Friday's ourprowler day.
So I don't know why.
That is because when I wasgrowing up it was bomb the legs.
Bomb the legs, and I'm glad Idid.
I just don't know how howeffective it was.
So that's the other thingthat's maybe more global.

(57:59):
What was the other thing, uh?

Speaker 1 (58:02):
so, uh, yes, people implemented.
But also to your one of yourpoints you're like I don't know
how this is happening.
What you're explaining is stepcycling, right, it's.
This is what I love aboutkettlebells, because I'm I love
barbell, don't get me wrong, butI love kettlebells because the
old sets used to have, like youwould have like an 18, a 24 and

(58:22):
a 32, so you would be pressingthe 18 right for, yeah, until
you got down.
So every rep is perfect.
Uh, it's light enough where I'mgonna, you know, get the form
down technique, but it's justheavy enough where it's going to
give me that mechanical stress,yeah, and then you're gonna,
now you earn yourself, yeah, upa bell and then you can work

(58:43):
there for a little while.
But you, what you're doing isyou're staying at those weights,
like you're saying, and peoplewant this progression.
It doesn't life.
Doesn't.
Life doesn't look like that.
It goes like this.
You know it goes up a littlebit, yeah, the macro picture.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Is this right?
You, you know you hone in it'syou know very.
Does that make sense?
Yes, and it's when I starteddoing that.
I started doing that during theseason because, uh, cause we
trained.
We trained fucking hard duringthe season.
Now I'm smart about what we do,but our kids usually end up

(59:18):
stronger.
If they don't get hurt, theywill be stronger.
Long story short, we also Ialready regulate everything we
do.
Everything we do is autoregulated.
So I you can walk in and knowlike, oh, these kids not looking
good.
Or you watch the first coupleof sets, listen, we're backing
off today.
This is not going to hurt.
You know, we had a one year wehad to do we cut out the, we
trap bar and we bench press.

(59:39):
Those are our main lifts duringthe season.
We don't squat at all.
Hamstrings get too tired, likethe kids.
All, everyone almost plays bothways.
What's the fucking point?
So, long story short, there wasa couple um, we trap our on
Monday.
There was four, three Mondaysin a row we didn't trap bar.
I'm like no way, the kids just.
I can just tell the next.

(59:59):
So that's three weeks.
The fourth week we come inalmost everyone prs and I was
like, oh my god, I thought youcan't do that because you didn't
do 225 for 5, 230 for 5, youknow 235.
How the fuck did this happen?
And I was like, well, it justshows like you just do what you.
You do what your body isprepared for that day and then

(01:00:22):
let the chips fall where theymay.
And the other thing this isduring those weeks that we
couldn't trap our.
When we came to Wednesday andbench press, I'm like the kids.
I don't want the kids to knowthat they're weak when they're
in the season Okay, cause thenthey're going to.
That's going to carry intotheir attitude.
So when I know that they're notgoing to bench, well, we just

(01:00:42):
drop to what I call our firstset.
We just do tons of reps therebecause they can smoke those
reps.
So even if they can't maybethey're not that strong they can
still get 15 reps and threesets of 15, right, just
obnoxious pump work.
We did that.
Then we again.
We go back and hit somethingheavy.
Like six weeks later everyone'sbench went up.
I was like, oh my God, the kidsjust need to do reps.

(01:01:04):
Imagine that.
I was like, oh my God, we don'tneed to do cluster singles at
90%.
No, the kids just need to dothis over and over again.
I was like, oh my God, it'sreally weird.
And it's almost this season.
Every off season and in season,I have a goal.
This off season was just doless.

(01:01:24):
We're just doing less.
Whatever we're doing, we'redoing less of it.
And as soon as I got away fromthat, everyone started getting
too tired.
And then I have a good friendthat I call all the time.
I always put him in his placeand he's like let me tell you
what I'm doing.
I'm like dude, that sucks,that's just a horrible idea, you
know.
So we and uh, I I sat down andjust talked it out.

(01:01:44):
I'm like I'm doing too much.
I'm doing too much.
You know, we auto-regulateeverything, but you have to
account for the daily readiness,you know.
And the weird thing is you knowhow, when women are in prison,
everyone's cycles.
Uh, when you have 60 kids inthat weight room and you can
hear a pin drop in there, thekids can't train very hard.

(01:02:06):
Like it's like everyone.
There's not like half the teamsgoing bananas and the other
ones like this.
It's like either everyone'sgood to go or no one's good to
go.
Obviously not a hundred percent, but it's nuts.
I remember it, cause our weightroom's on the second floor.
I was walking up the weightwith the stairs and I was like,
oh my God, I got the time wrong.
Like how do I get the timewrong?
We train at you know, whatevertime it was, there were 60 kids

(01:02:28):
in there.
It was so quiet.
I'm like listen, we're justgoing to do some pushups, some
dumbbell bench, we'll do somechin-ups and we're going to
leave.
That's all we're doing today.
And, by the way, you want tosee a kid's attitude improved,
tell them they're not squattingthat day.
You know we didn't squat thisMonday and I didn't tell anyone

(01:02:48):
until, like, uh, after we gotdone with the warmup, oh my God,
that assistance work.
The kids were like cause they'reall that's when you know the
kids aren't you, so to speak,Cause I would have been
devastated if I, you know, evenif I was right now.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
I've been looking forward to all weekend.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
And so, but it's been .
You know, I've done a lot ofthis stuff.
Like all my stuff that I do andmy wife does, it's all
volunteer work.
We don't get paid.
I, I think when I started thatjob and I'm just trying to pass
this on because it got passed onto me by my mother I think it's
important you give somethingback.
I understand not everyone hasthat opportunity, but I have.

(01:03:27):
We live so far below our meansfinancially that we're able to
do a lot of stuff for free andit's the best thing I've ever
done.
Not because it's for free, it'sbecause I got a whole small
community and I'm part of it now.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Like I'm going to.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
It's not.
I'm not carrying cancer, butguess what?
Either are you.
You know, no one is, by the way, no one's carrying cancer, and
so I just think you knowwhatever you're good at, if you
can, whether it's my mom cookedfor the homeless for years and
years, and cause she lovescooking and that's what she was
good at.
So she's like, fine, I'll justdo it, and so that's kind of
what inspired me.

(01:04:00):
So I think and we have a wholegroup of moms and dads that even
when their kids leave like onewas a terrific photographer, he
does all the comes to everysingle game and photographs.
I mean amazing pictures.
We've got moms who help cook,you know, help do this.
You know, we had some familiestake in kids.
That's normal, like if a kid,you know, parents, something

(01:04:21):
happens.
I'm not going to judge, theytake, they adopt them.
I mean that's the.
That's why I love living in asmall community.
We, you know, kind of help eachother out.
So, uh, it's been an awesomeexperience for me and I'd love
to be able to train like theCleveland Browns, right, but how
it's it's, I'd rather train akid who's five'10", 145 pounds,
and turn them into something hissenior year and he's changed.

(01:04:44):
You know, his life has changed.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
And just being of service is like one of the best
things that you can possibly dowith your life.
And you know, I appreciate guyslike you, your wife and
everybody that's involved overthere in London, like that's
something that's amazing andthat community will always have
that tight knit, like tightknitness from that and, um, you,

(01:05:07):
you don't see that anymore, youknow, or rarely, so I, I'd love
that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
That's amazing, you know, 15 years ago I would have
said happiness isn't the mostimportant thing.
I mean, I'm not sure how youdefine that, but now I think,
service, I just I still I'mtraining a couple of kids for
free.
This, you know, during thesummer they come in for you know
, I'm like, yeah, if I can do it, I don't care, let's have some
fun together.
And I'm not saying like, listen, I got plenty of faults and I'm

(01:05:32):
not perfect by any means, but,man, it feels good to be useful,
so to speak.
It really does to be of service,like you said, but that's just
the product of getting older too.
I still think I will say this Itell every kid that graduates,
I write them a little note and Isaid listen, be selfish in your
pursuits and take risks,because you've got a small

(01:05:54):
little window and everything Iregret in my life is things I
didn't do, not that I did anyreal dumb shit.
Let's just be honest.
But take those chances whileyou're young and be selfish in
your pursuit, because when youget to my age, that's when I'm
giving, that's now that you knowI'm giving back and letting

(01:06:17):
other kids find their, their,their purpose, so to speak, or
whatever you want to say.
I'm not sure what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
But yeah, no, you know, it's like when I do
podcasts sometimes it's like,all right, let's get the
detailed sets and reps andpercentage, whatever it may be.
But no, this is the big like.
We barely talked that right, wetalked about building character
.
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yeah, right, it doesn't matter that much.
Eight reps, five.
Nebraska possibly the greatestfootball teams in my generation,
the 80s and 90s.
They did a lot of sets of 10.
Oh my God, you can't beexplosive.
Yes, you can.
Yeah, I always laugh.
Eight reps or five reps, I'mlike fucking flip a coin, who
cares?
Are they done perfectly, arethey done correctly?

(01:07:02):
It's all right, you're good.
Yeah, so yeah, I always I laugh.
I got a question the other dayabout dead stop, deadlifts or
touch and go.
I'm like it doesn't matter, likeI remember when this stuff used
to matter, I'm like are thereps done right?
Are you good to go?
Doesn't you good to go?

(01:07:26):
Doesn't really matter that muchin the big scheme of things,
and I think that comes withexperience and maturity and
stuff.
But I find like, oh my god,people care about this stuff and
they do.
I understand, because I did too, but it's just uh, when you see
the big picture, I'm notterribly concerned.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
So all right, what's, what's the mike boyle saying?
It's like we have so, like wehave to be like an information
filter, just just like, don'tworry about like the minutia of
everything, like, just get likethe basics down and let's, let's
, let's rip, let's go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
I get asked like, do you guys high bar, low bar?
I'm like, yeah, whatever thekids want to do, yeah, high bar
squats, perfectly.
What am I going to do?
No, put it down, who cares?
The kid wanted a front squat.
I'm like I don't give a shit.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
Let who cares.
If the kid wanted a front squat, I'm like I don't give a shit.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Let's front squat, you're gonna be good at front
squats?

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
I don't care, don't care, so anyway, but yo, this
was awesome, it was, it wasamazing to talk to you.
This was a great, yeah, greatconversation.
Uh, if people want to find you,um, you know where are you
located on like social media forthe listeners.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
So there's, uh, I post on Instagram most, I don't
know, maybe three or four timesa week, and so that's just.
I think Jim Wendler uh, I'msure if you type in my name
it'll come up uh, every Fridayon YouTube we do a live stream
at 10 AM Eastern time, uh, onFridays.
So I just get on basically whatyou see right here and then I

(01:08:44):
just answer any question thatcomes on the chat.
And then we also I have someonewho does all the YouTube shorts
, who takes little clips fromthere and puts them into fancy
little things, who does aterrific job, which I love.
And then we also have a, theJim Wendler forum.
It's a training forum, just likeback in the day.
It's a it's paid forum.
It's a training forum, justlike back in the day.
It's a, it's paid.
It's five bucks a month, uh,and it is 1000 political free.

(01:09:10):
It's, if you want to talktraining and we've, we've built
it up over, I want to sayprobably 14, 13, 14 years and,
uh, tons of good dudes that havebeen on there forever.
We got coaches, we got olderguys, we got younger guys, a lot
of people with experience, andit's you've got a training
question, or one is like, I postTons of good dudes that have
been on there forever.
We got coaches, we got olderguys, we got younger guys, a lot
of people with experience, andif you've got a training
question or want to like, I postevery single workout we do with

(01:09:30):
the team.
You can be absolutelyunimpressed with how we train
because that's what's going tohappen.
I had a coach come in one time.
A lot of coaches want to comesee us and our coach is like nah
, that's kind of weird for thekids and he says the same thing.
You'd be totally unimpressed ifyou saw, like, really, that's,
you guys did some dumbbellinclines and deadlifts and some
curls.
I guess what we did today.

(01:09:50):
Oh, all right, so no bands oranything.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no anyway.
But yeah, I am, I love doing thelive streams.
I really do.
It's been fun for me.
I always like I know I'm justtalking like we, I've given a
million presentations andseminars and stuff, but my

(01:10:12):
favorite thing is when I justsit down in front of an audience
and let's just, let's get yourquestions answered Not saying I
have all the answers, cause Icertainly don't, but I love
doing that stuff.
I'd rather do that than preparea PowerPoint.
Now you got a hundred people inthe audience Like if you got it
, like you came here and paid,so ask me what you want to know.
I'm maybe I'm not going toanswer all your questions

(01:10:35):
sitting up here with aPowerPoint, it's so you know
what I'm saying.
I've been to those things and Igo.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Oh yeah, there's like a million million words on the
slide.
You're like oh no, no.

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
I got a book one time Dave I didn't, but Dave bought
a book about PowerPoint and itwas like 50 bucks about how to
do PowerPoint and it was.
If you saw it you'd be like 50bucks for this.
I learned more about presentingin that $50.
It was fucking stapled or likea spiral.
It was just put no more thantwo words or three words on a
slide.
Have really good pictures.

(01:11:09):
That's it, cause you don't wantpeople up there and I was like,
oh my God, that's how importantit is to just give a good
presentation.
It's uh, you provide them theinformation, but this you know
the the slide doesn't, I don'tknow.
The point being is I couldn'tbelieve how great that
information was in such a kindof a basic binder and I don't
know.
But yeah, you're right, Ilearned that really the hard way

(01:11:32):
Cause I my.
Here's what we do on Monday youknow, I don't know.
but anyway, I'm sorry, I'll letyou get.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
No, no, no.
But again, it's a pleasure tohave you on.
I'm gonna put all the links inthe show notes, uh, so people
can stay in touch with you,follow you, go to your website
as well.
But once again, this was anhonor.
Thank you so much thank you, Iappreciate you you got it and
thanks for everybody listeningto another episode, the promo
foundations podcast.

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On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 54: No Gimmicks, Just Gains with Jim Wendler 5/3/1

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

Episode 54: No Gimmicks, Just Gains with Jim Wendler 5/3/1

On Purpose with Jay Shetty