June 17, 2025 • 60 mins
In this episode of Printing's Alive, Warren Werbitt chats with Nick Gawreluk from Print Profit about print industry profitability. They discuss traditional vs. modern costing methods, contribution margins, and job profitability. Nick shares his industry challenges, highlighting the significance of sales, pricing strategy, and customer value. They also cover generational leadership, MIS integration, competitive pricing, and collaboration. The episode addresses ROI on equipment, support for small print shops, rising operational costs, and business ethics. Tune in for insights on navigating the evolving print landscape.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Hey, all.
I wanna welcome you back to another edition ofPrinting's Alive, the podcast that talks about
everything print anytime, anywhere.
But today, I am super fucking excited becausewe got the main man.
This is the man who's making everything happen,and you need to listen to this show.
We got Nick G from Print Profit.
What's happening, Nick?
(00:29):
How you doing, Warren?
We're coming in hot.
You ready for a fun conversation?
Oh, man.
I am on fire.
I've been on fire since I woke up this morningexcited for this.
So I got a little intro here that I wanna readbecause not everyone knows Nick G, and you
better know Nick G.
And if after this show, you don't know Nick G,you're gonna call him and get to know him.
So here we go.
(00:50):
Today's guest is someone who's flipping thetraditional print mindset on its head.
Yes.
On its head.
Nick G's an industry strategist, speaker,educator who's laser focused, lost my thing, on
helping printers rethink how they run theirbusinesses.
With deep experience across the OEMs, techvendors, m and a, Nick isn't just talking
(01:12):
history.
He's helping shops take action today.
Real action, people.
It's an industry where profits aretraditionally razor thin.
Yes, most of you know, you're just sucking thebag for no reason when you could have more
money in your pocket.
Okay, Nick brings a fresh perspective on whatsustainable success really looks like in print.
(01:35):
And you know what folks, way back when, whenprint was print, there was Udos of money being
made.
And then somewhere along the way, people gotreal stupid in our industry.
We started selling down.
It was a race to the bottom line.
You weren't looking at expenses or anything.
You were just looking at your dumb competitornext door who was giving away a copy by the
(01:55):
cost, by the percent thing as opposed to thecost of the job.
Anyways, we're gonna dig into this.
So why so many printers are stuck in the pastand why they need to be looking at the future
if they want to succeed.
The ones who are willing to adapt, I promiseyou, you're gonna have great conversations
later when you're on a nice trip somewherespending the money that you're making.
(02:18):
Otherwise, the rest of you just keep doing whatyou are doing.
How was that for an intro, Nick?
And the choir says amen.
Amen.
So, alright.
You know, I I know where to begin.
I don't know where to begin.
I gotta actually take catch my breath frommoment.
Gotta catch my breath.
I'm just gonna breathe.
(02:39):
There's so many there's so many better.
All, and you don't know this, Warren, but I'vegot a lot of old dusty books in front of me.
How to make money in the printing business.
Oh my god.
Printing for profit, estimating hints forprinters.
These go back to the late eighteen hundreds,early nineteen hundreds.
(03:02):
And the way we as an industry think aboutcosting, pricing, profit, it hasn't changed in
over a hundred years.
I'm telling you.
30% paper, 30% labor, and then whatever youwanna fill into the rest, and hopefully you've
covered your shipping.
Yeah.
A lot of traditional hourly rates andFrankenstein Excel spreadsheets.
(03:25):
You know from some of your old videos where inyour wingspan, we can show all the hourly rate
calculations.
It's it's madness.
And we really don't, as an industry, haveclarity to where we're making or losing money.
And with razor thin margins, big overheadfactories, We're a few bad decisions away from
(03:47):
an outcome we don't want to talk about, youknow?
Yeah.
Okay.
Before I ask you one question, I want mylisteners, hopefully now we're up to thousands,
maybe millions in my head.
Tell us a little bit about you, print profit,and, like, really just what brought it on and
made you wanna do that because, honestly, itisn't the most exciting thing in the world.
(04:11):
Right?
You're a young guy.
You could be playing video games.
You could be in some tech world.
I mean, you're a little bit of tech with this,but you know what I mean.
So let us know.
Yeah.
Got into print by coincidence in high school.
Grew up in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
Found that that is my passion.
That is my calling in life.
I love print, everything about it.
And then long story short, spent about twentyyears traveling the world, working in our
(04:34):
industry, seeing it from all different nooksand crannies.
But there's a common thread no matter where Iwent, no matter who I was speaking with,
profitability challenged behind closed doors,owners saying, Nick, I can't see it clearly.
Where am I winning?
Where am I losing?
How do I improve?
And then out of a love for our industry, andwe're we're tied with that together more, and
(04:57):
I'm like, there's gotta be a better way becauseI've lived it.
It's madness.
We love this industry.
I love the people in it, and we want a brighterfuture.
So let's modernize data the way we think aboutcosting, pricing, profit, and let's move
towards that brighter future.
Amen, brother.
So before we before we get into a couplequestions, you know, I wanna give credit to all
(05:22):
of the great printing companies out there thatwe don't talk about because they're so great
and they're doing it, but you're you'respending money in the plant.
You're spending money on your people.
You're investing in the culture.
You're investing in your customers, and you aremaking a lot of money because of it.
You're doing it the right way for the rightreason.
So to all of you out there, and I can't mentionyou because there's just too many, kudos to
(05:47):
you.
Now to the rest of you in the graveyard, thisis what you wanna start listening to.
So Nick, from traveling the world, right, whyis it that everyone in print is in the same
position?
Razor thin margins.
Lot of different By the way, I just wanna startoff by reminding everyone, razor thin margins
(06:10):
in a crazy capital intensive business, right?
Why?
And where all of our, you know, paper and inksand consumables are are going up and up and up.
So there's there's, you know, a lot ofdifferent reasons and and factors, but I wanna
go back to these old dusty, moldy textbooks.
(06:35):
And I really see us challenged where the way wethink about costs, they come from those hourly
rates, which we don't clearly understand, andthat's what we rely on.
And we're messing up our MIS system, adjustingthe rates to what they need to be.
But we don't, an industry, see clearly what areour costs.
And then how do we come up with our sellingprices?
(06:57):
It's from the MIS.
It takes that cost or what we think it is, andit puts a markup and we go to markup.
And then we think we're making a profit, butit's really a mirage because we've taken all of
those costs and we've tried to sprinkle it intoa job and we lose our sense of reality.
This is, a I have a two and a half year olddaughter.
(07:19):
This is a toy I bought for her and it remindsme of our industry where we sell a lot, we get
our financials and trying to tie out why we wonor lost.
What were the good or bad jobs, customers,products, industries, we're guessing at best.
And that's where I just say, we've gottainnovate.
We've gotta think different.
(07:40):
We've gotta use data.
It's 2025.
Come on.
You know what?
Before before that even, I'll just what I usedto do, we were used we had an MIS system that
was whatever.
Worked when it worked and when it didn't.
But one thing I think you need to start with,the printers don't most don't do is most don't
even analyze or look at the job after it's doneto try to get even somewhat of a handle.
(08:05):
So forget if you're just using markups orhourly rates, even using that as a basic.
You know you know it took twelve hours on thepress.
You know, you want $600 an hour, you're able tofigure out some basics, right, to give you the
idea.
And, what I noticed is from all the meetings,peer groups, most printers aren't even
reviewing after the job is done and build out.
(08:27):
Yeah.
I would agree.
There's a lot of missed opportunities and lowhanging fruit to wanting to get a better handle
on it.
Why redo the same job at a loss 20 timesthroughout the year?
And I wanna talk about, you know, a job at aloss because our understanding of costs are so
complicated.
(08:47):
Many times we'll say we're winning at this job,losing at this job, maybe the customer, maybe
the the division of the company wide format,whatever.
But a lot of times, we might kick those outwhen they could be good for us, or we might
double down when in reality, it may not beperforming like we think.
(09:08):
And that's where it's so dangerous, like yousaid, the environment of capital intensive,
razor thin margins, and we don't have a lot ofroom for air in that regard.
So even even we'll get into the costing and andwhat you do, but the other thing I I I think
that people because even if everyone fixedtheir costing, it's the people that are out
(09:30):
there on the road selling it and talking, whothen all of a sudden, when a customer mentions
another customer at a price, they forgeteverything that you've done, and they go into
stupid mode, and they forget that they're inbusiness to make money.
They forget that it's okay to make a profit onevery job.
Right?
I always say this, you know, the world can'tlive without us, and no company can function
(09:54):
without any form of print.
And it could be a business card, it could be aform, it could be an invoice, it could be a
brochure, it could be a large, it could beanything.
Agreed.
Right?
But if we are a service business, we need tomake money, and we've killed our own industry
by by playing the game.
Lawyers and accountants keep charging more fortheir hourly rate than they sit at the same
(10:15):
wooden desk without adding any expense to it.
Yet we have two people working on a machine ora brand new $2,000,000 machine that we can't
get $300 an hour for.
It doesn't make sense to me, and I'm surprisedthat it doesn't make sense to more people out
there.
And obviously, made sense to you because youaren't where you are now.
Right?
So just get tell us anything you wanna tell usthat excites you about what you started and
(10:39):
what you see.
Yeah.
The biggest advice, right, we wanna add valueto the audience, have thought provoking
discussion and insights.
What I'm gonna share is something I'm reallypassionate about, and it's not because it's
super complicated like the way we've typicallymade it.
But Sorry.
That goes with the blue book from the old NAPL.
(11:01):
Got
I've got four of them.
Yeah.
But our industry has a lot of different flavorsof how we may look at profit.
VA, gross margin, but thinking about it fromsomething called the contribution margin
concept.
It's known in our industry, but not reallyused.
(11:22):
So I'm not gonna bore into, like, accountingand those details, but let's keep it simple.
My guilty pleasure in the morning is this icedDunkin' coffee.
Right?
What does this cost?
You've got the ice, the coffee, the straw, andthe cup.
Little bit of printed on it.
Right?
If you ask a a printer what that would cost,they'd be looking at the overhead, the
(11:46):
insurance, the labor to to produce that, thethe toilet paper in the office, all of the
costs of the company and and sprinkling it ininto that's what it costs this coffee.
But when you look at it from a contributionlens, and hang with me, we're really looking at
what's the true variable cost.
(12:08):
Meaning, to produce this one job, what are thetrue costs?
So for us as printers, it's your paper.
It's your anchor, your click sales commissionto sell it.
Maybe you shipped it to the customer.
And if you outsourced it, yeah, that's a legitcost.
That's down to earth reality.
But the minute we go back to old habits ofthese crazy hourly rates that are all messed up
(12:35):
and complicated, it becomes a mirage.
So I just wanna start with keep it simple,stupid.
I love that acronym.
And let's get back to reality of what does thatjob truly cost?
And, yes, the overhead is critical.
Right?
We wanna get to profit land.
We gotta get above water to oxygen.
So we're we're obsessed with that as well.
(12:57):
But let's go back to keeping it simple andtruthful when looking at our jobs.
Yeah.
I think so.
I think there's so much complications in thereand so many numbers and so many people.
But I I really think that a lot of owners don'tunderstand their business to begin with.
And it's tough
trying to be a superman or superwoman, wear allthe hats, have all the strengths, and that's
(13:21):
why we got teams.
But, you know, a lot of the owners I work with,and I love this industry, that we do come from
different backgrounds.
And, yeah, numbers isn't everyone's forte.
But going back to simplicity and truth and justone zero one, what does this cost?
Let's let's think about it simple.
Right?
That can serve us really well and not not thesethese hourly rates craziness.
(13:47):
So how how would you I mean, now that we're onit and everyone's sitting there listening and
they're going, what is he talking about?
Yeah.
Right?
So so give us a little lowdown on on, you know,what goes into the process of thinking to do
the job.
Yeah.
So let's just go back to, like, print shop onezero one.
Right?
We wanna get to profit land.
(14:08):
We don't take all this risk and work so hard toto just break even.
Right?
We wanna get to profitability.
So it's critical.
If you don't, when you're listening to what I'mgonna say, have that number in your head, it's
a great stepping stone of what is my fixed costevery month to run the business.
Right?
Whether you're doing one job or 10,000, knowingwhat that overhead is, that's that's the summit
(14:31):
of your mountain.
Right?
And if we wanna get to profit land up above, wegotta cover those fixed costs.
Okay.
Great.
Got it.
I can go to my p and l, go to my controller.
We can get that number.
Then every job you ship throughout the month,when you say, what did we sell it for, and what
were those variable costs that I mentioned?
Keep it simple.
(14:52):
What's left over?
That's like a thermometer.
That's called contribution, and that's our fuelto covering our overhead and getting to profit
land.
And when you make it that simple, you can seeclearly who is helping or hurting you get to
profit land, the jobs, the customers, theproducts, the business segments, the customer
(15:13):
industries.
I could go on and on.
But you see your business with 2020 vision forthe time, and I'm obsessed with it.
It it empowers business owners with fancy IvyLeague degrees to folks who never went to
business school, really look at their businessin a different lens, make better decisions.
(15:33):
So how when you go meet somebody who's oldschool Yep.
By the by the blue book, how does theconversation go?
You know, I have found behind closed doors,with mutual respect, right, owners are tired,
and they are frustrated because it's Beat up.
Out there.
(15:54):
They're beat up.
Right?
And working hard for thirty, thirty one days ina month and getting our p and l later and
hoping, doing that for decades, that'sexhausting.
So when someone comes to the table saying, Ibelieve there's a better way.
I've been in your shoes, and I've I have aproven way to see more clearly, make more
(16:16):
confident decisions.
In an industry where there's a 2% net profitmargin average, I find that more times than
not, there's open, eyes and ears saying, hit mewith it.
Right?
Because this old way is exhausting.
So that openness is critical.
(16:36):
We gotta do it to help ourselves, to help ourindustry.
By the way, if company's making 2% but theowner's taking out a million and a half
dollars, it's okay.
Right?
But most people aren't taking out the money.
No.
Yeah.
The go.
I'm just saying because in business, you know,you own a business, you're also running if you
own a business, you have expenses, you havecertain things, you factor that into whatever
(16:59):
it is you take at the end.
But the truth is you wanna be highlyprofitable, that you could take as much cash as
you want and, you know, within reason, as muchexpenses you want.
Right?
So so you're in the meeting, you're in closeddoors, you're sitting there, the owner's now
broken down, his elbows are on the table, hishead's in his hand, and you've got him, like,
at a moment where he's actually stopped, youknow, breathing and he's thinking.
(17:22):
Yeah.
What is the thing you do?
How do you go about working with someone orgetting them to change their mindset?
Yeah.
So what I built is and it doesn't existanywhere else in the industry.
It is a profitability software by printers forprinters.
Right?
It's not your MIS.
(17:42):
It's not your QuickBooks.
It just takes that data, and it goes very deepto how can you seek your business with clarity,
twenty twenty vision, and get where you'relooking to go financially.
So by building a software like that where wecan tap into the MIS and bring the data in, we
can bring to life this for the time.
(18:06):
I wanna show you your company with data in thislens.
Right?
And, Warren, I have to tell you, it's like areality TV show.
There's gasp, OMG, I can't believe it.
There's I knew it, but now I can see it withdata.
And then there's a little bit in between, like,okay.
Not too surprised.
It's kinda what I thought.
(18:27):
So it's all about just grabbing the data,bringing to life in a modern software, and then
it's off to the races.
Where do you wanna go financially?
And here's the path to get you there.
Wow.
I I reserved the domain name, and we shouldprobably do something with it, but I got print
shop rescue.
Oh, that's good.
(18:48):
Like like, after the restaurant rescue.
That's good.
But then I was thinking like, oh my god, I wantto go in and do that, but there was no one
coming in with me to do it with enough money toactually turn a shop around.
You know, that might be a fun idea for Series
we're gonna make.
That could be a that could be a good one.
Right?
So so but with the the software's great andyou're doing it, but it's still the person in
(19:12):
the old school who's sitting there.
Yep.
So what is you know, when you start to tell himall of this, what's his reaction to you?
Or what's his questions to you to try to get byto understand what you're saying?
Yeah.
It's a lot of handholding and education andmaking sure we're both understanding at a
(19:35):
similar level.
And it's not going off in the weeds ofcomplexity, but just looking at that business
one zero one analogies that I've been talkingabout and then bring it into the world, their
world.
And this is what your print shop looks like,one zero one.
Right?
And this is what current state is, and here'sthe aspirations you told me of where you wanna
go, and here's tangible ways you and your teamcan start to roll the boat in that direction.
(20:01):
So it's not about 100 miles per hour,buzzwords, fluff.
It's back to reality, back to simplicity, goodbones, good structure, and having a clear path
to move forward.
Does that answer your question, Warren, in inkind of that approach?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I just I wanna go, like, deeper.
I just wanna know what they're what they do,how they do it.
(20:24):
The there resistance?
Is there no resistance?
Yeah.
Do they get over the when you come up tell mehow you come up with a price because that's
what everybody's asking.
Well, okay.
Now he's talking all this stuff.
Yeah.
How do you determine what a price is then?
For the software in that example you're saying?
Or?
Well, you're selling something.
(20:45):
So you you use your old school MIS system thatcomes up, it tells you that it's well,
whatever.
It's $20 for the book.
Yep.
Right?
One book.
Yep.
If you do it your way Got it.
Got it.
Got it.
What would the price be?
Yeah.
So now we're talking about great segue,thinking about pricing in our industry.
The MIS, you input the specs of the book.
(21:08):
Right?
You know, the desired markup and voila, outpops selling price.
In the print profit way, we look historically,hey, where is your profit for this customer or
this product?
And identifying with the data, where are youleaving money on the table?
(21:28):
Or where are you going in higher than we knowthat customer
I just wanna stop.
I'm just gonna have to interrupt you becauseI'll forget as we go farther.
When you talk about knowing what your value ofthe customer is, your markup, you're already in
in outer space with most people because mostpeople have not thought about their customer in
(21:48):
terms of long term value or short term value oranything.
They're just stuck on the MIS system puttingout the price and they're selling it.
Yep.
And this
You a complete paradigm shift in your brain.
You almost need a therapist to help you breakthe mold of how you were thinking because it
(22:08):
really is, sounds it sounds right, but for ourindustry being so old, right, it's like, it's
like trying to imagine that, like, somebodylanding on the moon.
And the way to approach it once again iskeeping it simple, something people can absorb
versus over their head.
So even really, really killer graphs andvisuals could say, here's all your products,
(22:34):
and here's the profit margins, low and high,and here's where you're selling it for all your
customers.
And we can sit back and say, why are theygetting this price?
Or, wow.
We're getting away with that.
How can we double down there?
And, you know, we wanna we don't wanna be 2%net profit.
How do we get to 10?
Okay.
Here's some levers with pricing, and let's goexperiment.
(22:56):
Right?
Here's the new guardrails for the estimatorgoing forward.
So once again, it's it's having that clarity,having the data, putting a strategy on top of
it, and then living that out each day.
Rinse and repeat.
Yeah.
It sounds so simple, but I I I'm I'm thinkingabout some of the other printers out there, and
(23:17):
I'm just shaking my head going, you know, willthey ever get it?
Right?
So let let's you've you've in doing what you'vedone, you've spoken with little print
companies, big print companies, middle printcompanies.
Yep.
Give me an idea what the big guy says.
And I saw something online about SIM Press,right?
(23:38):
Where you spoke with them.
So I don't wanna discuss anything I shouldn'tdiscuss in public, but they're pretty large.
They're not even a printing company.
They're a technology company who just happensto sell print, But, and I think they, you would
think they know what they're doing before yougot there.
So without giving away like, you know, theirsecrets and what he spoke, how did that go?
(24:04):
Like, the reason I'm sorry, the reason I'masking is because little people or smaller
people know that the big people are reachingout to other people for help as well.
There's nothing wrong.
You know, the biggest CEOs in the world havecoaches.
I I just wanna make people feel comfortablethat, you know, don't think as low as you have
to.
It's just everyone needs help.
(24:25):
So sorry to cut you on that, but
No.
And let's just reiterate that small, medium,large, independent of shape and size in our
industry, these are universal challenges andall around the world.
So you're not alone.
Right?
But working with larger printing companies inour industry, they typically have that more
(24:45):
sophisticated data.
And if you can come to them saying, this is myOakland A's, my moneyball shirt.
If you can say, we can identify the hiddengrowth opportunities.
And if we double down here, adjust the dialshere, this is what we can bring to the bottom
line, that is something that gets people quiteinterested.
(25:06):
All the way down to the one person shop whodoes T shirts in their basement who may not
have a treasure trove of data.
But how can they use this thinking of thatmountain analogy and the true profit from each
job, and how does it influence them and thedecisions they make?
So my whole thing with print profit and thesoftware, it's not just for the big boys that
(25:29):
have and have not.
I am so passionate about helping small, medium,large.
And from day one, that's always been my dreamis moving our industry forward.
Right?
Raising the the tide in all boats, baby.
That's what it's about.
And the majority, I believe, are, you know,small independent companies.
That's the norm.
Not the big.
(25:50):
That that's what makes up our forget the RRDonnelley's and the etcetera, etcetera, others.
Right?
It's it's really like the the people on thestreet are the smaller people and the small
shops.
Do the like, the have the franchisors, theAlpha Graphics and Sir Speedy's reached out to
you for conversation?
Because a lot of their people have no idea whatthey're doing.
(26:16):
Right?
Everyone a lot of the small places, you know,they advertise the cost per click.
Right.
Yeah.
No.
There's a cost to walk in the door.
It's $15 automatic, like, or whatever the priceis.
Right?
Right.
Yeah.
There's a lot of ways, whether it's franchises.
Like, I'm always thinking about scale.
(26:37):
Right?
I didn't take this risk to leave the corporateworld working for one of the largest printers
in the world to have 20 to 50 customers Isupport.
I want I wanna bring this to the masses.
And there's a lot of clever ways to think abouthow can you get in there and make a difference.
So I'm still figuring that out, still workingon strategies, but the mission hasn't changed
(26:59):
of where I want to go and how I want to help.
What's been the reaction from the big, small,medium people you've spoken to?
The good and the bad because I can't you know,I'm sitting here drooling because I think this
is just unbelievable because it's always beenabout profit.
As far back as I could remember, if I go backto the NAPL days Yeah.
Not that I wanna date me or anybody else, butprofit then was 2%, and the profit leaders were
(27:23):
10%.
And I think the profit leaders have probablydropped to 8% now, and the the the two to three
could be one to two, if not negative.
Yep.
Right?
I'll answer it like this because it's a doubleedged sword.
With this software, you can truly see yourbusiness with twenty twenty vision for the
time.
Slice and dice your profit all this way.
(27:45):
So the the common reaction is, that's great.
I can see clearly, but I can really seeclearly, and it and it hurts.
I don't like current state.
Right?
So the the big value proposition is, alright.
We got a good foundation.
Now where do you wanna go, and how can we getyou there?
So, you know, that that's the the silver liningof if it was just a fancy dashboard saying, you
(28:09):
don't have enough sales, you suck.
How did that help me?
Right?
But you need to come in saying, you know,here's the tangible path to move forward and
improve.
So with those two yeah.
Yeah.
So I know okay.
So our industry is made up of all kinds ofpeople and all kinds of groups and all kinds of
(28:30):
ages and and whatnot.
The the mindset change.
How do you think we're gonna deal with that?
I mean, we are stuck, some people.
You know, I've been telling some of the owners,you know, you need to start listening to your
people, Right?
They're they're they're they're old enough,even though they're young Yep.
(28:52):
To understand, and you gotta get in touch withthem because it is a new world out there and
things are changing.
And there's plenty of people that don't evenhang out and chat with their younger kids to
know what the kids are thinking.
Right?
Which is something I love to do and always loveto do.
I'd love to do carpool and sit there and justlisten to them in the backseat talk and shut up
and remember I'm just a driver and then pick upall that information.
(29:13):
Right?
And it's the same thing, you know, with withwith printers when we get around in a group and
they sit and they talk and I just listen, but Ishake my head because most of the conversations
are not upbeat.
I see the the generation who's slowly takingover, who's running our industry today.
Really, that's I'm I'm 34.
Right?
So 30 to 40 year olds coming in, generationalfamily businesses starting to make that
(29:38):
transition, talking about modern software orusing data or thinking different ways.
A lot of their action is, what do you meanwe're not doing that?
Everyone else is.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Let's do it.
Right?
Where you have more of the traditional sensewho a lot of this is new territory, and change
is hard.
(29:59):
But I think over time, when we have a change ofthe generations running the industry, a lot of
these traditional books and thinking that we'vetalked about, my generation doesn't know that.
You know?
So I think over time, because of thatevolution, I think we will modernize, and we'll
(30:21):
we'll be forced to.
Right?
You need to be profitable.
You need to be relevant.
You need to exist.
So you gotta
I agree.
You know, so what I've seen out there is I'veseen a lot of companies where, you know, family
companies where it's gonna be passed on to theyounger generation, they're gonna work for it,
they're gonna pay for it, no one's sayingthey're getting it for free.
But in that period, the the the elder, theleader, the senior, still controls.
(30:51):
Right?
So when somebody wants to go do some marketing,they have to explain to the senior about
marketing and wanna why they wanna spend thatmoney, which if you're senior, if you're a
leader, if you're a fossil, you gotta ease up alittle bit.
No.
You gotta ease up because you're gonna killthese young people who who actually know what
(31:12):
they're doing.
Right?
Because they're on this, and they're talking,and they're seeing.
And there's so much resistance at the passingof a torch.
But there there can be a middle ground.
But it does take on both ends open mindedness.
You know?
You know?
I I wanna push that.
I'm trying to speak to anybody front and back.
(31:34):
It's like, if I'm going in to consult with acompany, it kinda goes like this.
If if I'm talking to the owner, if you, theowner, are not sitting in on all the sessions
that we're doing, I'm not interested in workingfor the company because all it means is no
one's gonna listen.
Not not no one.
I don't wanna insult everyone.
I'm just gonna insult a few of you.
But just life is that most don't listen, andthey and they go off and they do something else
(31:58):
after.
I mean, what can you take in in an hour or twohours?
It's gotta be repetitive.
It's gotta be, you know, there's gotta becontinuity to it.
It's gotta be learning, practice.
It's gotta be walking the talk, not justtalking.
And buy in, like you're saying, at all levelsor else it's not gonna happen.
To the companies out there that sell the MISsystems, is there a way for you, Maybe it's a
(32:24):
path you have, and I'm just crossing the linesomewhere.
But is it a path for you, for them to comemaybe work with you?
Because their systems in return could give themback information on the spot.
Yeah.
All about how can we work together,collaborate, doing the integrations, they call
it APIs between the software so they can talk.
So that's a huge opportunity and a way to bringit to the masses.
(32:47):
Right?
You have to do that.
Well, I think we have to bring it to the massessooner than later.
Again, I'm gonna say it, and I keep saying it.
I don't hear people saying it.
The world doesn't function without us, and theyneed us.
And and to the customer who calls you, you knowwhat I I still sell a little bit of print if
people call me and if you call me for print,don't call me for price call me because you
(33:09):
want me to fulfill a project and make it happenright, but I got doing something with a a a
customer and I'm quoting you know somepackaging and they're going off on me on, oh,
that's so expensive.
And all I said was, how do you come up with itso expensive?
You don't even know what it costs to make.
I look at what you're selling, and I thinkthat's expensive.
(33:30):
I'm a buck and a quarter.
You're $75 and I'm expensive.
Maybe you should go talk to somebody else.
Like, we as a industry need to take a stancebecause we are and I'm gonna say it.
We're allowed to make money.
Right?
I remember I had salespeople who would come in,they'd go see a customer, they'd come in with
(33:52):
the quote, and they'd say to me, listen, wegotta be really good on the price if we want
it.
I go, we haven't even quoted it.
What are you whining to me for already?
Quoting and pricing, and that's the wild, wildwest, but Right?
Warren, I'm But my point is they're alreadythinking about the down.
The sales guy's thinking about the down and thelow price.
(34:14):
I'm always thinking as the sales guy, how couldI upcharge them?
What value could I bring?
What can I say to them to make them changetheir mind?
Who do I know out there that maybe I couldintroduce them to for no other reason for my
client to know that I'm thinking of him otherthan the print and his business.
I love the saying, be careful about the race tothe bottom because you might win it.
(34:37):
And using, like, data to help make smarterpricing decisions, which there's so much
opportunity.
You will know who's clearly the bottom feederand who's paying the premium and how can you
how can you get more for what that customermight be willing to pay.
So
I love this.
(34:58):
The other day, I'm, talking with a customer, aa printer, and they say to me, you know, we got
this competitor.
We don't know how he keeps coming in at thoseprices, and it doesn't make sense.
And I looked at him, and I all I said to himwas like, what do you care?
Why are you I said, he's winning because you'rethinking of him right now, and he's doing the
job.
(35:19):
I said, number one, you're you're a $10,000,000player.
He's a $70,000,000 player.
You can't even compare.
I said, so don't even try to think.
Look at what your costs are.
Look at what you need to do to run yourbusiness.
Yep.
Right?
That person has 20 presses, all the finishing.
Yeah.
(35:39):
And you're running around.
I said, he buys more board in a month than yousell in a year.
And you're asking why?
Run your own race.
And we know bigger is not always better.
And there's different ways to could be sellingless to be more profitable on the bottom line.
Better is better.
I'll tell you this from my own experience.
(36:01):
I made more money at $8,000,000 when I had nodebt running my business ever than when I built
it to $1,920,000,000.
K?
We know it's Top line, for everyone listening,it's really simple schooling.
Top line is ego.
Bottom line runs your business.
(36:22):
Top number, don't compete with anybody.
K?
And the winners, they don't talk about theirbottom line.
And and that's what I've learned to sum up allthese years.
Right?
Because when I started, and and it's fine.
If you're an entrepreneur, you're a businessowner, you wanna build.
The numbers are exciting.
Right?
But don't lose track of why you're here.
(36:43):
And now this is gonna sound even funnierbetter, but now doing what I'm doing, and
unfortunately, I don't have my print company,which I I wish I did.
I miss walking the plank every morning on thatone forty two.
But even now, the other day, called me.
I did a small print job.
Okay?
I sold it for $2,000 I made a thousand.
(37:07):
It's a no brainer.
Right?
If I was working at a print company, I'd get a$100.
I get $200, and the company probably would havesold it at $1,400.
Why?
I had a conversation with the customer.
They know I know what I'm talking about.
I gave them a couple ideas to go along with it.
I suggested why I wouldn't do it like that.
And at the end of the day, they feltcomfortable.
(37:31):
Yeah.
Why do you use the lawyer you use if he's for$800 an hour, $1,200, or $400?
It's a comfort.
You have it's relationship.
I I
just I don't understand it.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, way back when, when cell phones cameout, I remember every quote I did, I would add
$2 on to cover my cell phone after all costingand pricing and selling.
(37:54):
Right?
It was just a mind game of to beat it and addon everything everywhere as opposed to taking
off.
Right?
I mean, you've seen it.
This is what made me this makes me crazy.
I come across a print shop.
We don't charge for washups.
We're on four color.
What are you, an idiot?
Of course, you're washing up and using rags andchemicals to get from one job to the other.
(38:17):
How do you not charge it up?
Right?
Or someone's $250 for a make ready and fourplates.
What are you, an idiot?
We used to charge $300 for plates and a proof,and then CTP changed that because everyone
started hiding it in instead of keeping it out.
And then the printers that went into thepackaging space messed up the packaging guys
because the packaging guys charge dies extra,charge plates extra, redo plates, and the pack
(38:41):
the print people just put it into the price.
Like, you're leaving money on the tableeverywhere thinking you're smarter beating the
system and making less money.
There's a lot of lessons I've learned on price,and I by no means have it all figured out.
But I was asked on a previous podcast, what'sthe biggest advice you give to someone about
(39:04):
pricing?
And I said, know your costs.
Because then if you do wanna do somethingcrazy, at least you do have that clarity.
Or if you do wanna go for the premium, but yougotta have that anchor to know what are you
really working with here.
It's so funny you say that because I I wouldsay to everybody, if you know your cost, you
(39:29):
could make an educated decision for whatever itis.
You wanna lowball it because you've got abigger plan and they're giving you something
else.
You wanna but you know where you stand.
Yep.
You're not
playing Russian roulette because listen.
We all know it.
Right?
We know the minute we take something that it'snot going right.
When a person handed me a PO, that I was like,I don't really want it, or I know I did
(39:54):
something, I look at it, go, oh no, I'm gonnalose my shirt on this one.
And I continue to do it.
The gut doesn't lie in this business.
We know enough, we've been pounded enough toknow when it's going downhill, right?
I mean, thank God for digital today.
We're not printing reflex blue anymore.
Reflex blue on a letterhead or a business cardwould never dry.
(40:14):
Right?
And then you'd have all the offsetting and theredoing of the jobs.
So the way the industry's changed has actuallymade things a little easier for us.
But to everyone listening, things the way theychange, the industry hasn't gotten cheaper.
It's gotten more expensive.
Yeah.
So why people think that what they buy shouldbe less than it was is insane.
(40:36):
I was so excited at COVID in our industry.
Why?
Because paper was scarce and expensive.
And if everybody buys paper at a buck a poundand puts on their markup, whatever they want,
you know, you get more money on the higher thecost of using your markup.
who cares?
I don't want any of us to buy paper at 50¢ apound.
(40:57):
If we all went with a 30% markup on 50¢ apound, 30% on a dollar a pound is better for
all of us.
So, you know, you can't have collusion, butreally you can because look at the gas
companies.
The price is the same for gas on the cornerwhen you have three different gas stations.
So how's that not collusion?
But we'll go that's another conversation withanother industry.
(41:18):
But we could definitely be smarter with what wedo.
And I'm amazed that it's 2025 and we still havethese conversations.
Yeah.
And we're passionate, right?
So for anyone listening, you know Warren,myself, we're glass half full.
And I just see it ripe for opportunities tomodernize, to think different, and help move us
(41:43):
forward to a more profitable future.
And those opportunities are out there.
There's so many op there's there's always anopportunity.
Right?
But people have to people have to wanna makethose opportunities.
Agree.
I was never a believer in this, and I used tokinda laugh at the person who used to say it to
me all the time, but you've gotta put make thatbig v, and you've gotta talk and put it out
(42:06):
into the universe if you want it to happen.
If you keep everything pent up inside toyourself, no one's gonna hear, no one's gonna
know, no one's gonna do anything.
Right?
Put it out.
We talk companies that don't market.
I mean, you're not doing the costing, themarketing.
When times get tough, to me, it's the reason tomarket because nobody else is marketing, and
then people are gonna see you out there,they're gonna wanna deal with you instead of
(42:29):
running away.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, unless you're a public company, yougotta answer to the shareholders, and you cut
your marketing.
But if you're private, don't follow the rulesof the public companies.
Yeah.
Always something to do out there.
Go out on offense, not just live on defense.
Always.
Always.
I I I more companies print companies could worktogether before they go out and buy additional
(42:55):
equipment, and you've got someone within a mileor two of you.
Make friends.
Make a relationship with the understandingthat, hey.
If I were giving you business and I could do xamount of dollars, eventually, I will buy a
piece of equipment.
But until then, you get to benefit from me, AndI benefit from you giving me the preferred
price working together.
He fills up his bottom line contribution.
(43:16):
Yep.
The other person gets the benefit of making afew bucks without having to take on that
additional overhead, And there's plenty of itout there.
But people become, you know, they You shouldn'thave the I need.
I need.
Yeah.
And and you know what?
You gotta watch the OEMs.
Right?
The OEMs will convince you that you haveeverything, and they have everything that you
(43:38):
need, and you need it, but you don't alwaysneed it.
Right?
Let me ask you a question.
Are OEMs and ROIs?
What about it you're saying?
they're
I I I wanted to see if you would jump onsomething But yeah.
So, like, the the OEMs would come into myplace.
Right?
And they wanna know, like, see, I'm bringing ina I wanna buy a piece of digital.
(44:00):
So I won't mention any of the names of them,but they'll come in and they'll, you know,
wanna look and they'll say to me, hey.
You know, why don't you give us everything yourun-in this size on your 40 inch press?
And I'm like, don't fucking touch my 40 inchpress.
I own it, and you can produce 8,000 pieces ofpaper, eight and a half, 11 cheaper than I can
get it on there.
And I don't care about the no make the no thewaste because I'm not paying a click charge,
(44:24):
and I'm not paying a a lease charge to that.
So just take for me the work that I could do onyour machine.
Right?
But so when I ask the ROI stuff, you you dealwith printers.
What do they say or do they say when they goin, and how are they looking at investing in
something new using maybe your view versus theold way?
(44:46):
Sure.
So I see a lot of times it's and I'm only 34,but I've worked a lot of places in our industry
and have heard about the heydays and areaswhere you could go off a gut feeling and make a
press purchase.
In today's environment, if you're not runningthose numbers, both on your own independent of
(45:09):
what what the OEM's numbers may say, that is sodangerous.
And I don't know many people today who whowould be doing that or getting away with gut
feeling.
But to your point, you have to look atunbiased.
It's art and science.
What do the numbers say?
And then, you know, what's the soft, impact ofit as well?
(45:34):
So there's another problem that I see thatmaybe there's a solution out there that you
might have or you can, excuse me, come up with,but a good part of the printers out there just
don't have the human resources or the financialresources or or the nowhere to go to get some
of this done because, like we were saying, themajority is smaller operations.
(45:57):
Right?
In my case, I joined the entrepreneurorganization.
I joined the NAPL for leadership.
I joined every association.
I joined the peer group.
Sure.
When I started, because I was 26 years old, andmy idea back then was surround myself with
people that know better, people that I couldlean on.
So hopefully, I make less mistakes, although Istill make millions of dollars of mistakes.
(46:19):
Right?
And you do it that way.
I don't know what everyone's doing today or ifthey're even reaching out to do to learn from
others because what does the small shop do?
I mean, it's hard enough to make the changefrom the only way you knew to cost doing the
hourly thing to upgrade to modern thinking theway you're doing it, but they're already
(46:42):
working eighty five hours a week.
And where do they figure out how to do whatthey do?
What do we do for those guys, girls?
Yeah.
So in this profitability software, there is anerror saying, what if?
What if we put on this take on this press?
Or what if we do this with labor?
Or what if we spend this on marketing?
(47:02):
How does that shake out bottom line?
Right?
Black and white, does that make us moreprofitable or not?
So making an exercise like that, which is anacquired taste, and someone with without that
kind of background wouldn't have a lot ofsuccess making it through successfully.
How do you bring that to the masses who may nothave that background in a simple way they can
(47:25):
wrap their head around and kind of know if weput the compass this way, is that helping or
hurting?
So I'm passionate about bringing down thattraditional barrier there.
But you had a great point about peer groups,getting involved in the associations.
That's also gold.
And especially when it comes to 6 to 8 figureCapEx investments, you wanna do that right.
(47:48):
So
Oh, you know what?
Today, you cannot build it, and they will come.
I the I I did that.
The last machine I bought, I did that, and thatwas a KBA, Koning Bauer.
I gotta keep calling them KBA.
They're a wide format.
Right?
Okay.
I did a one forty two six color fully loaded UVraised off the ground, printing anything from
(48:11):
two point to 40.
It's a $5,000,000 purchase.
Right?
I I had a bit of a plan, right, because I itwas the only machine within 500 miles of
Montreal.
So that was pretty good.
And my plan was pretty good until a competitorwent out and bought a 56 inches machine as
(48:32):
well.
And the difference was I was planning onpicking up all the oversized workaround, right,
because I had the only one and I could make theprice.
He ended up buying a two year old machine thatwas sitting on, you know, sitting in an OEM's
warehouse, and it wasn't UV, and he paid a lotless, and then he was able to smash me out of
(48:53):
the park in a lot of places because he didn'thave the UV and all that extra overhead.
Sure.
And I found other things to do with it, and webecame one of the largest producers of printed
canvas in North America at the time.
But that was scary because for eighteen or forten months, I had billed it, they will come,
and I built the right thing.
(49:13):
And then, you know, a competitor called me upand said, let's have lunch.
And I kinda just chuckled.
I go, why do you wanna have lunch with me?
I mean, I like the guy.
So we went to have lunch, and he says, listen.
I want you to hear it from me.
I'm putting a bid in on a 56 inch press, butbefore I do that, I wanted to know if there's
something we could do together, and I don'thave to buy it.
(49:34):
And, unfortunately, I would have, you know,would have been merging, making an employment
contract, and I wouldn't have been king.
Sure.
I said no.
It was just I didn't wanna be I I didn't Iwanted to be king.
In the end, it was okay.
Maybe maybe I should have done it, but but thepoint is he called.
He sat down.
But today, you need to know your cost.
(49:55):
You need to know everything you're doing.
Transport today in a business is not what itwas.
There's no more one hour couriers for $18.
They're $45.
Right?
Rent.
Where I live now, and I'm sure it's everywhere,you know, the last lease I had, we were like
$8.09, $10 a square foot all in, then it was a12.
(50:18):
Rates are $18.19, and $20 for industrial spacenow with square foot.
You gotta factor that in right away.
If you were if you have a low cost rent now,why are they not pretending and raising it to
be the current rate so that they're in linewith everybody else instead of winning maybe a
(50:38):
little bit and then scrambling later.
You could make the extra profit now just byplaying with the rent because everyone else is.
Right?
The consumables.
I just don't see enough adjustment happening.
People are more maybe you see it also, butpeople are trying to figure out how to keep it
low, not justify raising it.
(50:59):
Yeah.
We know the stakes are too high, too high.
Right?
But but in their own in their but this is thefunny thing.
In their own lives, when they're not up towork, they make the right decisions with the
things they do, what they buy, how they buy it,and the way they buy it.
And then they get into work, and they, like,all of a sudden, they get, like, blank.
(51:23):
Right?
It's like, treat people the way you want to betreated, service people the way you want to be
serviced.
Don't go off on people.
You know, I'm in a restaurant, and withsomeone, the service is bad.
The person I'm with is, like, losing it.
I'm like, woah, woah, woah.
I said, maybe they're having a bad day.
They didn't make the food.
Don't shoot the messenger because you knowwhat?
One day, you're gonna have a little mess up,and someone's gonna shoot you.
(51:46):
Again, karma.
Put it in the universe.
Positive energy.
Positive thinking.
The in the print industry is not that positiveall the time.
It's And I think It's a battle.
It's challenging economically, but we know someof the most passionate people out there who
deeply care.
So like you've been saying throughout ourconversation, keeping an open mind, thinking
(52:12):
about new approaches that could benefit.
And what's the worst case?
You have an open mind, you hear someone's ideaand you disagree with it.
Well, but at least to have the conversation,maybe it took one thing away from it.
Or try it.
I mean k.
So you had you're meeting somebody.
You have thirty minutes.
You're meeting a printer who, like, is in theis in the gutter.
(52:35):
K.
He's got a decent shop, but his thinking's allbackwards.
Thirty minutes.
Like, what do you say to him in that thirtyminutes to get him to
So I can just go straight to the pain points.
Right?
Can you tell me this month where you're gonnaend up?
Nope.
Can you tell me your most profitable customerindustry or product or this or that?
(52:56):
Not with confidence.
Right?
I there's just a list throughout the company ofthese pain points where it's like, yeah,
exhausting.
So once we quickly establish, hey.
Current state, not fun, then we can get intothere's a better way, and here's how.
(53:17):
Perfect.
And they hopefully just wanna listen.
Yeah.
Does anybody not wanna listen when you starttalking?
I've definitely had some Heisman poses here andthere, but you know what?
Not everyone's gonna be open to change, or hearin different thought points.
(53:39):
So I don't take it personally.
You build thick skin, and they know where tofind you if if they ever change their mind.
So
Oh, I I've got thick skin, but I'm gonna tellyou, my skin is wearing thin.
Right?
Because I think we are in the greatest industryin the entire world.
And when I got into print, it was really asimple and easy thought.
(54:01):
Oh my god, everyone, as a salesperson, everyoneI meet has a need for some form of print.
So all day, day and night, everyone I met foryears, all I was doing was say, Hey, you have
any print?
Do you any print?
You need print?
I'm in the car with a salesman.
Yeah, with my salesman, the phone rings in mycar.
I've said this before.
(54:22):
Person, I answer, they go, Hello.
They go, my god, wrong number.
I go, wait, wait, wait.
I said, now we're on the phone.
I said, I got a question.
I said, like, I'm in the printing business.
Any chance you need some print that we couldtalk about?
Oh, that's good.
And the person on the phone is cracking up andsays, oh my god, I've never had someone try to
solicit me on a wrong call before.
(54:44):
And I love it.
And I said, Hey, I'm just trying to make use ofmy time, and you never know.
And then I said, What do you do?
Maybe I could do something that you have tooffer.
Really?
And I get off the phone, and my salespersonlooks at me, he goes like, you don't expect me
to do that, do you?
I'm like, okay, I might fire you right now.
(55:05):
If anything, shut your mouth.
That is like, right?
I I remember I'm walking in a restaurant in the.com days.
Everyone's doing I walk you by, two guys aretalking at the table about their need and what
they're doing.
And I I just say, oh my god, guys.
I I'm not gonna stop, but here's my card.
I heard you mention the word print packaging.
And if you should need anything, you know, it'smy company.
(55:25):
I'm just selling myself.
And then table was next to them.
And later on in the in the lunch, I heard themtalking about how bad business was and the burn
rate.
And on
the way out, the card was still on the table, Isaid, no.
I don't think I'll be working with you guys.
And everybody was just kinda laughing becauseyou make a little joke about what goes on.
Yeah.
So I think we're in the greatest industry inthe world.
Excuse me.
(55:47):
I love what you're doing.
I will do anything I can with you to help youchange the way this industry thinks and
operates.
Means a lot.
I think that the OEMs should be listening tothis.
And if you have customers that you know, maybeyou bring Nick in because if he helps set them
(56:08):
up right that they understand their business,you might have an easier time selling them one
of those machines.
So this is what I always say.
I say to the printer, I'll back you up onanything you wanna buy if you could answer the
five questions.
You know?
Who are you gonna sell?
How are you gonna sell?
Who's gonna sell it?
Do you know what your cost is?
(56:30):
Do you know what your true cost is when it's onthe floor, and do you know what you're gonna
sell it for?
And if you can't answer any of those fivequestions, don't buy it.
And I say to the OEM, ask your customers thefive questions.
And if they can't answer them, don't sell themthe machine, help them figure out those answers
to the questions, and then you guys will have abetter relationship because it'll be more
(56:54):
grounded.
Agreed.
Problem is the OEMs aren't gonna do that.
They're gonna just sell the machine to anyonethey can regardless of what they say.
And I'm not insulting anybody.
It's business one zero one.
Right?
But there's so many little things thatquestions that could be asked and then answered
to help you move forward.
Yeah.
And my thought is I'm print profit is a neutralplayer here, wanting to help all parties
(57:19):
involved make the best, most informeddecisions.
Yeah.
Me too.
Same thing.
I by the way, I love buying equipment.
I mean, nothing better than going in.
It's like better than buying a car, actually,buying a press or something new or being the
right?
But I want everyone to be sound in thisbusiness.
I want everyone to have a good financialfoundation.
I want everyone to know what they're doing.
(57:39):
I want them to make money.
That's why you're in business, to make money,and you're allowed to make money.
Yeah.
Right?
Hard.
We take on risk.
We we we are we are, as an industry, prettyheavy on the risk side compared to others.
Right?
You know, a lot of people, a lot of businessesbuying, selling, doing, creating, but they
(58:01):
ain't laying out $3.04, $5,000,000 on the floorYep.
To to get it to make it go.
Yeah.
Right?
It's it's kinda crazy.
Oh, man.
I'm like, I'm just starting to get going, butwe're gonna cut this one.
It's not short, but we're gonna cut it now.
A couple quick things.
Number one, as I said, anything I could do tohelp you with anybody, I think this is the
(58:23):
greatest thing since I got into this business.
And now that I'm not a printer per se withequipment on the floor, I wanna help every
printer get to the point where they should be.
Now, if you have a family, you gotta get onthis right away because you wanna keep passing
this on to the family.
Right?
You wanna end it.
We're gonna have another podcast when you'reready because what I'd like to do next time is
(58:46):
show people just some small examples of what itis that you might be doing to get them to kinda
wet their lips and wanna know a little more.
Let's bring an owner
on maybe one generation younger and get the whydo they think different?
Oh my God.
I love that.
I love that.
Done.
Done.
We are doing that.
We'll speak after to do that.
(59:08):
Any final words to the viewers before we go?
Yeah.
Grateful for this opportunity.
I'd say just in the spirit of our conversation,we've got an incredible industry.
We want nothing but a bright and prosperous andprofitable future.
I love the opportunity, to learn more aboutyour business and and see how this
profitability software can help you get whereyou're looking to go.
(59:31):
So, Warren, thanks for all you're doing being aspokesperson for our industry pushing it
forward.
And to you listening, thanks for tuning in andand hearing two guys who love print.
Cool.
So when I'm when this gets posted, I'll put thewebsite there.
And, if you wanna give me perhaps a, Calendlylink, I could put that on if people want to
(59:53):
register.
Awesome.
You know, or we'll figure out something, andthen I'll post it so people have easy access to
you.
And I think that'll be a lot of fun.
To everybody listening, I really, really hopethat you, enjoyed this as much as I did.
I hope you're sitting there going, oh, man.
I'm doing it the right way.
(01:00:13):
I'm so happy.
I'm profitable.
I also hope you're sitting there going, oh,man.
I'm a loser.
I have not been doing it the right way.
I'm losing my shirt.
I'm gonna sit down.
I'm gonna call Nick, and I'm gonna figure thisshit out because you know what?
There's no reason I'm not on top.
Right?
And if you are a owner and you're single andyou fish, more money.
Lifescope is expensive these days on the boat.
(01:00:37):
All of that to say, folks, love you all.
Love printing.
Stay tuned.
Reach out if you have anything you wanna say,and we will see you back here soon.
Nick, thank you again.
Thanks, Warren.
Hey, all.
I wanna welcome you back to another edition ofPrinting's Alive, the podcast that talks about
everything print anytime, anywhere.
But today, I am super fucking excited becausewe got the main man.
This is the man who's making everything happen,and you need to listen to this show.
We got Nick G from Print Profit.
What's happening, Nick?
(00:29):
How you doing, Warren?
We're coming in hot.
You ready for a fun conversation?
Oh, man.
I am on fire.
I've been on fire since I woke up this morningexcited for this.
So I got a little intro here that I wanna readbecause not everyone knows Nick G, and you
better know Nick G.
And if after this show, you don't know Nick G,you're gonna call him and get to know him.
So here we go.
(00:50):
Today's guest is someone who's flipping thetraditional print mindset on its head.
Yes.
On its head.
Nick G's an industry strategist, speaker,educator who's laser focused, lost my thing, on
helping printers rethink how they run theirbusinesses.
With deep experience across the OEMs, techvendors, m and a, Nick isn't just talking
(01:12):
history.
He's helping shops take action today.
Real action, people.
It's an industry where profits aretraditionally razor thin.
Yes, most of you know, you're just sucking thebag for no reason when you could have more
money in your pocket.
Okay, Nick brings a fresh perspective on whatsustainable success really looks like in print.
(01:35):
And you know what folks, way back when, whenprint was print, there was Udos of money being
made.
And then somewhere along the way, people gotreal stupid in our industry.
We started selling down.
It was a race to the bottom line.
You weren't looking at expenses or anything.
You were just looking at your dumb competitornext door who was giving away a copy by the
(01:55):
cost, by the percent thing as opposed to thecost of the job.
Anyways, we're gonna dig into this.
So why so many printers are stuck in the pastand why they need to be looking at the future
if they want to succeed.
The ones who are willing to adapt, I promiseyou, you're gonna have great conversations
later when you're on a nice trip somewherespending the money that you're making.
(02:18):
Otherwise, the rest of you just keep doing whatyou are doing.
How was that for an intro, Nick?
And the choir says amen.
Amen.
So, alright.
You know, I I know where to begin.
I don't know where to begin.
I gotta actually take catch my breath frommoment.
Gotta catch my breath.
I'm just gonna breathe.
(02:39):
There's so many there's so many better.
All, and you don't know this, Warren, but I'vegot a lot of old dusty books in front of me.
How to make money in the printing business.
Oh my god.
Printing for profit, estimating hints forprinters.
These go back to the late eighteen hundreds,early nineteen hundreds.
(03:02):
And the way we as an industry think aboutcosting, pricing, profit, it hasn't changed in
over a hundred years.
I'm telling you.
30% paper, 30% labor, and then whatever youwanna fill into the rest, and hopefully you've
covered your shipping.
Yeah.
A lot of traditional hourly rates andFrankenstein Excel spreadsheets.
(03:25):
You know from some of your old videos where inyour wingspan, we can show all the hourly rate
calculations.
It's it's madness.
And we really don't, as an industry, haveclarity to where we're making or losing money.
And with razor thin margins, big overheadfactories, We're a few bad decisions away from
(03:47):
an outcome we don't want to talk about, youknow?
Yeah.
Okay.
Before I ask you one question, I want mylisteners, hopefully now we're up to thousands,
maybe millions in my head.
Tell us a little bit about you, print profit,and, like, really just what brought it on and
made you wanna do that because, honestly, itisn't the most exciting thing in the world.
(04:11):
Right?
You're a young guy.
You could be playing video games.
You could be in some tech world.
I mean, you're a little bit of tech with this,but you know what I mean.
So let us know.
Yeah.
Got into print by coincidence in high school.
Grew up in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
Found that that is my passion.
That is my calling in life.
I love print, everything about it.
And then long story short, spent about twentyyears traveling the world, working in our
(04:34):
industry, seeing it from all different nooksand crannies.
But there's a common thread no matter where Iwent, no matter who I was speaking with,
profitability challenged behind closed doors,owners saying, Nick, I can't see it clearly.
Where am I winning?
Where am I losing?
How do I improve?
And then out of a love for our industry, andwe're we're tied with that together more, and
(04:57):
I'm like, there's gotta be a better way becauseI've lived it.
It's madness.
We love this industry.
I love the people in it, and we want a brighterfuture.
So let's modernize data the way we think aboutcosting, pricing, profit, and let's move
towards that brighter future.
Amen, brother.
So before we before we get into a couplequestions, you know, I wanna give credit to all
(05:22):
of the great printing companies out there thatwe don't talk about because they're so great
and they're doing it, but you're you'respending money in the plant.
You're spending money on your people.
You're investing in the culture.
You're investing in your customers, and you aremaking a lot of money because of it.
You're doing it the right way for the rightreason.
So to all of you out there, and I can't mentionyou because there's just too many, kudos to
(05:47):
you.
Now to the rest of you in the graveyard, thisis what you wanna start listening to.
So Nick, from traveling the world, right, whyis it that everyone in print is in the same
position?
Razor thin margins.
Lot of different By the way, I just wanna startoff by reminding everyone, razor thin margins
(06:10):
in a crazy capital intensive business, right?
Why?
And where all of our, you know, paper and inksand consumables are are going up and up and up.
So there's there's, you know, a lot ofdifferent reasons and and factors, but I wanna
go back to these old dusty, moldy textbooks.
(06:35):
And I really see us challenged where the way wethink about costs, they come from those hourly
rates, which we don't clearly understand, andthat's what we rely on.
And we're messing up our MIS system, adjustingthe rates to what they need to be.
But we don't, an industry, see clearly what areour costs.
And then how do we come up with our sellingprices?
(06:57):
It's from the MIS.
It takes that cost or what we think it is, andit puts a markup and we go to markup.
And then we think we're making a profit, butit's really a mirage because we've taken all of
those costs and we've tried to sprinkle it intoa job and we lose our sense of reality.
This is, a I have a two and a half year olddaughter.
(07:19):
This is a toy I bought for her and it remindsme of our industry where we sell a lot, we get
our financials and trying to tie out why we wonor lost.
What were the good or bad jobs, customers,products, industries, we're guessing at best.
And that's where I just say, we've gottainnovate.
We've gotta think different.
(07:40):
We've gotta use data.
It's 2025.
Come on.
You know what?
Before before that even, I'll just what I usedto do, we were used we had an MIS system that
was whatever.
Worked when it worked and when it didn't.
But one thing I think you need to start with,the printers don't most don't do is most don't
even analyze or look at the job after it's doneto try to get even somewhat of a handle.
(08:05):
So forget if you're just using markups orhourly rates, even using that as a basic.
You know you know it took twelve hours on thepress.
You know, you want $600 an hour, you're able tofigure out some basics, right, to give you the
idea.
And, what I noticed is from all the meetings,peer groups, most printers aren't even
reviewing after the job is done and build out.
(08:27):
Yeah.
I would agree.
There's a lot of missed opportunities and lowhanging fruit to wanting to get a better handle
on it.
Why redo the same job at a loss 20 timesthroughout the year?
And I wanna talk about, you know, a job at aloss because our understanding of costs are so
complicated.
(08:47):
Many times we'll say we're winning at this job,losing at this job, maybe the customer, maybe
the the division of the company wide format,whatever.
But a lot of times, we might kick those outwhen they could be good for us, or we might
double down when in reality, it may not beperforming like we think.
(09:08):
And that's where it's so dangerous, like yousaid, the environment of capital intensive,
razor thin margins, and we don't have a lot ofroom for air in that regard.
So even even we'll get into the costing and andwhat you do, but the other thing I I I think
that people because even if everyone fixedtheir costing, it's the people that are out
(09:30):
there on the road selling it and talking, whothen all of a sudden, when a customer mentions
another customer at a price, they forgeteverything that you've done, and they go into
stupid mode, and they forget that they're inbusiness to make money.
They forget that it's okay to make a profit onevery job.
Right?
I always say this, you know, the world can'tlive without us, and no company can function
(09:54):
without any form of print.
And it could be a business card, it could be aform, it could be an invoice, it could be a
brochure, it could be a large, it could beanything.
Agreed.
Right?
But if we are a service business, we need tomake money, and we've killed our own industry
by by playing the game.
Lawyers and accountants keep charging more fortheir hourly rate than they sit at the same
(10:15):
wooden desk without adding any expense to it.
Yet we have two people working on a machine ora brand new $2,000,000 machine that we can't
get $300 an hour for.
It doesn't make sense to me, and I'm surprisedthat it doesn't make sense to more people out
there.
And obviously, made sense to you because youaren't where you are now.
Right?
So just get tell us anything you wanna tell usthat excites you about what you started and
(10:39):
what you see.
Yeah.
The biggest advice, right, we wanna add valueto the audience, have thought provoking
discussion and insights.
What I'm gonna share is something I'm reallypassionate about, and it's not because it's
super complicated like the way we've typicallymade it.
But Sorry.
That goes with the blue book from the old NAPL.
(11:01):
Got
I've got four of them.
Yeah.
But our industry has a lot of different flavorsof how we may look at profit.
VA, gross margin, but thinking about it fromsomething called the contribution margin
concept.
It's known in our industry, but not reallyused.
(11:22):
So I'm not gonna bore into, like, accountingand those details, but let's keep it simple.
My guilty pleasure in the morning is this icedDunkin' coffee.
Right?
What does this cost?
You've got the ice, the coffee, the straw, andthe cup.
Little bit of printed on it.
Right?
If you ask a a printer what that would cost,they'd be looking at the overhead, the
(11:46):
insurance, the labor to to produce that, thethe toilet paper in the office, all of the
costs of the company and and sprinkling it ininto that's what it costs this coffee.
But when you look at it from a contributionlens, and hang with me, we're really looking at
what's the true variable cost.
(12:08):
Meaning, to produce this one job, what are thetrue costs?
So for us as printers, it's your paper.
It's your anchor, your click sales commissionto sell it.
Maybe you shipped it to the customer.
And if you outsourced it, yeah, that's a legitcost.
That's down to earth reality.
But the minute we go back to old habits ofthese crazy hourly rates that are all messed up
(12:35):
and complicated, it becomes a mirage.
So I just wanna start with keep it simple,stupid.
I love that acronym.
And let's get back to reality of what does thatjob truly cost?
And, yes, the overhead is critical.
Right?
We wanna get to profit land.
We gotta get above water to oxygen.
So we're we're obsessed with that as well.
(12:57):
But let's go back to keeping it simple andtruthful when looking at our jobs.
Yeah.
I think so.
I think there's so much complications in thereand so many numbers and so many people.
But I I really think that a lot of owners don'tunderstand their business to begin with.
And it's tough
trying to be a superman or superwoman, wear allthe hats, have all the strengths, and that's
(13:21):
why we got teams.
But, you know, a lot of the owners I work with,and I love this industry, that we do come from
different backgrounds.
And, yeah, numbers isn't everyone's forte.
But going back to simplicity and truth and justone zero one, what does this cost?
Let's let's think about it simple.
Right?
That can serve us really well and not not thesethese hourly rates craziness.
(13:47):
So how how would you I mean, now that we're onit and everyone's sitting there listening and
they're going, what is he talking about?
Yeah.
Right?
So so give us a little lowdown on on, you know,what goes into the process of thinking to do
the job.
Yeah.
So let's just go back to, like, print shop onezero one.
Right?
We wanna get to profit land.
(14:08):
We don't take all this risk and work so hard toto just break even.
Right?
We wanna get to profitability.
So it's critical.
If you don't, when you're listening to what I'mgonna say, have that number in your head, it's
a great stepping stone of what is my fixed costevery month to run the business.
Right?
Whether you're doing one job or 10,000, knowingwhat that overhead is, that's that's the summit
(14:31):
of your mountain.
Right?
And if we wanna get to profit land up above, wegotta cover those fixed costs.
Okay.
Great.
Got it.
I can go to my p and l, go to my controller.
We can get that number.
Then every job you ship throughout the month,when you say, what did we sell it for, and what
were those variable costs that I mentioned?
Keep it simple.
(14:52):
What's left over?
That's like a thermometer.
That's called contribution, and that's our fuelto covering our overhead and getting to profit
land.
And when you make it that simple, you can seeclearly who is helping or hurting you get to
profit land, the jobs, the customers, theproducts, the business segments, the customer
(15:13):
industries.
I could go on and on.
But you see your business with 2020 vision forthe time, and I'm obsessed with it.
It it empowers business owners with fancy IvyLeague degrees to folks who never went to
business school, really look at their businessin a different lens, make better decisions.
(15:33):
So how when you go meet somebody who's oldschool Yep.
By the by the blue book, how does theconversation go?
You know, I have found behind closed doors,with mutual respect, right, owners are tired,
and they are frustrated because it's Beat up.
Out there.
(15:54):
They're beat up.
Right?
And working hard for thirty, thirty one days ina month and getting our p and l later and
hoping, doing that for decades, that'sexhausting.
So when someone comes to the table saying, Ibelieve there's a better way.
I've been in your shoes, and I've I have aproven way to see more clearly, make more
(16:16):
confident decisions.
In an industry where there's a 2% net profitmargin average, I find that more times than
not, there's open, eyes and ears saying, hit mewith it.
Right?
Because this old way is exhausting.
So that openness is critical.
(16:36):
We gotta do it to help ourselves, to help ourindustry.
By the way, if company's making 2% but theowner's taking out a million and a half
dollars, it's okay.
Right?
But most people aren't taking out the money.
No.
Yeah.
The go.
I'm just saying because in business, you know,you own a business, you're also running if you
own a business, you have expenses, you havecertain things, you factor that into whatever
(16:59):
it is you take at the end.
But the truth is you wanna be highlyprofitable, that you could take as much cash as
you want and, you know, within reason, as muchexpenses you want.
Right?
So so you're in the meeting, you're in closeddoors, you're sitting there, the owner's now
broken down, his elbows are on the table, hishead's in his hand, and you've got him, like,
at a moment where he's actually stopped, youknow, breathing and he's thinking.
(17:22):
Yeah.
What is the thing you do?
How do you go about working with someone orgetting them to change their mindset?
Yeah.
So what I built is and it doesn't existanywhere else in the industry.
It is a profitability software by printers forprinters.
Right?
It's not your MIS.
(17:42):
It's not your QuickBooks.
It just takes that data, and it goes very deepto how can you seek your business with clarity,
twenty twenty vision, and get where you'relooking to go financially.
So by building a software like that where wecan tap into the MIS and bring the data in, we
can bring to life this for the time.
(18:06):
I wanna show you your company with data in thislens.
Right?
And, Warren, I have to tell you, it's like areality TV show.
There's gasp, OMG, I can't believe it.
There's I knew it, but now I can see it withdata.
And then there's a little bit in between, like,okay.
Not too surprised.
It's kinda what I thought.
(18:27):
So it's all about just grabbing the data,bringing to life in a modern software, and then
it's off to the races.
Where do you wanna go financially?
And here's the path to get you there.
Wow.
I I reserved the domain name, and we shouldprobably do something with it, but I got print
shop rescue.
Oh, that's good.
(18:48):
Like like, after the restaurant rescue.
That's good.
But then I was thinking like, oh my god, I wantto go in and do that, but there was no one
coming in with me to do it with enough money toactually turn a shop around.
You know, that might be a fun idea for Series
we're gonna make.
That could be a that could be a good one.
Right?
So so but with the the software's great andyou're doing it, but it's still the person in
(19:12):
the old school who's sitting there.
Yep.
So what is you know, when you start to tell himall of this, what's his reaction to you?
Or what's his questions to you to try to get byto understand what you're saying?
Yeah.
It's a lot of handholding and education andmaking sure we're both understanding at a
(19:35):
similar level.
And it's not going off in the weeds ofcomplexity, but just looking at that business
one zero one analogies that I've been talkingabout and then bring it into the world, their
world.
And this is what your print shop looks like,one zero one.
Right?
And this is what current state is, and here'sthe aspirations you told me of where you wanna
go, and here's tangible ways you and your teamcan start to roll the boat in that direction.
(20:01):
So it's not about 100 miles per hour,buzzwords, fluff.
It's back to reality, back to simplicity, goodbones, good structure, and having a clear path
to move forward.
Does that answer your question, Warren, in inkind of that approach?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I just I wanna go, like, deeper.
I just wanna know what they're what they do,how they do it.
(20:24):
The there resistance?
Is there no resistance?
Yeah.
Do they get over the when you come up tell mehow you come up with a price because that's
what everybody's asking.
Well, okay.
Now he's talking all this stuff.
Yeah.
How do you determine what a price is then?
For the software in that example you're saying?
Or?
Well, you're selling something.
(20:45):
So you you use your old school MIS system thatcomes up, it tells you that it's well,
whatever.
It's $20 for the book.
Yep.
Right?
One book.
Yep.
If you do it your way Got it.
Got it.
Got it.
What would the price be?
Yeah.
So now we're talking about great segue,thinking about pricing in our industry.
The MIS, you input the specs of the book.
(21:08):
Right?
You know, the desired markup and voila, outpops selling price.
In the print profit way, we look historically,hey, where is your profit for this customer or
this product?
And identifying with the data, where are youleaving money on the table?
(21:28):
Or where are you going in higher than we knowthat customer
I just wanna stop.
I'm just gonna have to interrupt you becauseI'll forget as we go farther.
When you talk about knowing what your value ofthe customer is, your markup, you're already in
in outer space with most people because mostpeople have not thought about their customer in
(21:48):
terms of long term value or short term value oranything.
They're just stuck on the MIS system puttingout the price and they're selling it.
Yep.
And this
You a complete paradigm shift in your brain.
You almost need a therapist to help you breakthe mold of how you were thinking because it
(22:08):
really is, sounds it sounds right, but for ourindustry being so old, right, it's like, it's
like trying to imagine that, like, somebodylanding on the moon.
And the way to approach it once again iskeeping it simple, something people can absorb
versus over their head.
So even really, really killer graphs andvisuals could say, here's all your products,
(22:34):
and here's the profit margins, low and high,and here's where you're selling it for all your
customers.
And we can sit back and say, why are theygetting this price?
Or, wow.
We're getting away with that.
How can we double down there?
And, you know, we wanna we don't wanna be 2%net profit.
How do we get to 10?
Okay.
Here's some levers with pricing, and let's goexperiment.
(22:56):
Right?
Here's the new guardrails for the estimatorgoing forward.
So once again, it's it's having that clarity,having the data, putting a strategy on top of
it, and then living that out each day.
Rinse and repeat.
Yeah.
It sounds so simple, but I I I'm I'm thinkingabout some of the other printers out there, and
(23:17):
I'm just shaking my head going, you know, willthey ever get it?
Right?
So let let's you've you've in doing what you'vedone, you've spoken with little print
companies, big print companies, middle printcompanies.
Yep.
Give me an idea what the big guy says.
And I saw something online about SIM Press,right?
(23:38):
Where you spoke with them.
So I don't wanna discuss anything I shouldn'tdiscuss in public, but they're pretty large.
They're not even a printing company.
They're a technology company who just happensto sell print, But, and I think they, you would
think they know what they're doing before yougot there.
So without giving away like, you know, theirsecrets and what he spoke, how did that go?
(24:04):
Like, the reason I'm sorry, the reason I'masking is because little people or smaller
people know that the big people are reachingout to other people for help as well.
There's nothing wrong.
You know, the biggest CEOs in the world havecoaches.
I I just wanna make people feel comfortablethat, you know, don't think as low as you have
to.
It's just everyone needs help.
(24:25):
So sorry to cut you on that, but
No.
And let's just reiterate that small, medium,large, independent of shape and size in our
industry, these are universal challenges andall around the world.
So you're not alone.
Right?
But working with larger printing companies inour industry, they typically have that more
(24:45):
sophisticated data.
And if you can come to them saying, this is myOakland A's, my moneyball shirt.
If you can say, we can identify the hiddengrowth opportunities.
And if we double down here, adjust the dialshere, this is what we can bring to the bottom
line, that is something that gets people quiteinterested.
(25:06):
All the way down to the one person shop whodoes T shirts in their basement who may not
have a treasure trove of data.
But how can they use this thinking of thatmountain analogy and the true profit from each
job, and how does it influence them and thedecisions they make?
So my whole thing with print profit and thesoftware, it's not just for the big boys that
(25:29):
have and have not.
I am so passionate about helping small, medium,large.
And from day one, that's always been my dreamis moving our industry forward.
Right?
Raising the the tide in all boats, baby.
That's what it's about.
And the majority, I believe, are, you know,small independent companies.
That's the norm.
Not the big.
(25:50):
That that's what makes up our forget the RRDonnelley's and the etcetera, etcetera, others.
Right?
It's it's really like the the people on thestreet are the smaller people and the small
shops.
Do the like, the have the franchisors, theAlpha Graphics and Sir Speedy's reached out to
you for conversation?
Because a lot of their people have no idea whatthey're doing.
(26:16):
Right?
Everyone a lot of the small places, you know,they advertise the cost per click.
Right.
Yeah.
No.
There's a cost to walk in the door.
It's $15 automatic, like, or whatever the priceis.
Right?
Right.
Yeah.
There's a lot of ways, whether it's franchises.
Like, I'm always thinking about scale.
(26:37):
Right?
I didn't take this risk to leave the corporateworld working for one of the largest printers
in the world to have 20 to 50 customers Isupport.
I want I wanna bring this to the masses.
And there's a lot of clever ways to think abouthow can you get in there and make a difference.
So I'm still figuring that out, still workingon strategies, but the mission hasn't changed
(26:59):
of where I want to go and how I want to help.
What's been the reaction from the big, small,medium people you've spoken to?
The good and the bad because I can't you know,I'm sitting here drooling because I think this
is just unbelievable because it's always beenabout profit.
As far back as I could remember, if I go backto the NAPL days Yeah.
Not that I wanna date me or anybody else, butprofit then was 2%, and the profit leaders were
(27:23):
10%.
And I think the profit leaders have probablydropped to 8% now, and the the the two to three
could be one to two, if not negative.
Yep.
Right?
I'll answer it like this because it's a doubleedged sword.
With this software, you can truly see yourbusiness with twenty twenty vision for the
time.
Slice and dice your profit all this way.
(27:45):
So the the common reaction is, that's great.
I can see clearly, but I can really seeclearly, and it and it hurts.
I don't like current state.
Right?
So the the big value proposition is, alright.
We got a good foundation.
Now where do you wanna go, and how can we getyou there?
So, you know, that that's the the silver liningof if it was just a fancy dashboard saying, you
(28:09):
don't have enough sales, you suck.
How did that help me?
Right?
But you need to come in saying, you know,here's the tangible path to move forward and
improve.
So with those two yeah.
Yeah.
So I know okay.
So our industry is made up of all kinds ofpeople and all kinds of groups and all kinds of
(28:30):
ages and and whatnot.
The the mindset change.
How do you think we're gonna deal with that?
I mean, we are stuck, some people.
You know, I've been telling some of the owners,you know, you need to start listening to your
people, Right?
They're they're they're they're old enough,even though they're young Yep.
(28:52):
To understand, and you gotta get in touch withthem because it is a new world out there and
things are changing.
And there's plenty of people that don't evenhang out and chat with their younger kids to
know what the kids are thinking.
Right?
Which is something I love to do and always loveto do.
I'd love to do carpool and sit there and justlisten to them in the backseat talk and shut up
and remember I'm just a driver and then pick upall that information.
(29:13):
Right?
And it's the same thing, you know, with withwith printers when we get around in a group and
they sit and they talk and I just listen, but Ishake my head because most of the conversations
are not upbeat.
I see the the generation who's slowly takingover, who's running our industry today.
Really, that's I'm I'm 34.
Right?
So 30 to 40 year olds coming in, generationalfamily businesses starting to make that
(29:38):
transition, talking about modern software orusing data or thinking different ways.
A lot of their action is, what do you meanwe're not doing that?
Everyone else is.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Let's do it.
Right?
Where you have more of the traditional sensewho a lot of this is new territory, and change
is hard.
(29:59):
But I think over time, when we have a change ofthe generations running the industry, a lot of
these traditional books and thinking that we'vetalked about, my generation doesn't know that.
You know?
So I think over time, because of thatevolution, I think we will modernize, and we'll
(30:21):
we'll be forced to.
Right?
You need to be profitable.
You need to be relevant.
You need to exist.
So you gotta
I agree.
You know, so what I've seen out there is I'veseen a lot of companies where, you know, family
companies where it's gonna be passed on to theyounger generation, they're gonna work for it,
they're gonna pay for it, no one's sayingthey're getting it for free.
But in that period, the the the elder, theleader, the senior, still controls.
(30:51):
Right?
So when somebody wants to go do some marketing,they have to explain to the senior about
marketing and wanna why they wanna spend thatmoney, which if you're senior, if you're a
leader, if you're a fossil, you gotta ease up alittle bit.
No.
You gotta ease up because you're gonna killthese young people who who actually know what
(31:12):
they're doing.
Right?
Because they're on this, and they're talking,and they're seeing.
And there's so much resistance at the passingof a torch.
But there there can be a middle ground.
But it does take on both ends open mindedness.
You know?
You know?
I I wanna push that.
I'm trying to speak to anybody front and back.
(31:34):
It's like, if I'm going in to consult with acompany, it kinda goes like this.
If if I'm talking to the owner, if you, theowner, are not sitting in on all the sessions
that we're doing, I'm not interested in workingfor the company because all it means is no
one's gonna listen.
Not not no one.
I don't wanna insult everyone.
I'm just gonna insult a few of you.
But just life is that most don't listen, andthey and they go off and they do something else
(31:58):
after.
I mean, what can you take in in an hour or twohours?
It's gotta be repetitive.
It's gotta be, you know, there's gotta becontinuity to it.
It's gotta be learning, practice.
It's gotta be walking the talk, not justtalking.
And buy in, like you're saying, at all levelsor else it's not gonna happen.
To the companies out there that sell the MISsystems, is there a way for you, Maybe it's a
(32:24):
path you have, and I'm just crossing the linesomewhere.
But is it a path for you, for them to comemaybe work with you?
Because their systems in return could give themback information on the spot.
Yeah.
All about how can we work together,collaborate, doing the integrations, they call
it APIs between the software so they can talk.
So that's a huge opportunity and a way to bringit to the masses.
(32:47):
Right?
You have to do that.
Well, I think we have to bring it to the massessooner than later.
Again, I'm gonna say it, and I keep saying it.
I don't hear people saying it.
The world doesn't function without us, and theyneed us.
And and to the customer who calls you, you knowwhat I I still sell a little bit of print if
people call me and if you call me for print,don't call me for price call me because you
(33:09):
want me to fulfill a project and make it happenright, but I got doing something with a a a
customer and I'm quoting you know somepackaging and they're going off on me on, oh,
that's so expensive.
And all I said was, how do you come up with itso expensive?
You don't even know what it costs to make.
I look at what you're selling, and I thinkthat's expensive.
(33:30):
I'm a buck and a quarter.
You're $75 and I'm expensive.
Maybe you should go talk to somebody else.
Like, we as a industry need to take a stancebecause we are and I'm gonna say it.
We're allowed to make money.
Right?
I remember I had salespeople who would come in,they'd go see a customer, they'd come in with
(33:52):
the quote, and they'd say to me, listen, wegotta be really good on the price if we want
it.
I go, we haven't even quoted it.
What are you whining to me for already?
Quoting and pricing, and that's the wild, wildwest, but Right?
Warren, I'm But my point is they're alreadythinking about the down.
The sales guy's thinking about the down and thelow price.
(34:14):
I'm always thinking as the sales guy, how couldI upcharge them?
What value could I bring?
What can I say to them to make them changetheir mind?
Who do I know out there that maybe I couldintroduce them to for no other reason for my
client to know that I'm thinking of him otherthan the print and his business.
I love the saying, be careful about the race tothe bottom because you might win it.
(34:37):
And using, like, data to help make smarterpricing decisions, which there's so much
opportunity.
You will know who's clearly the bottom feederand who's paying the premium and how can you
how can you get more for what that customermight be willing to pay.
So
I love this.
(34:58):
The other day, I'm, talking with a customer, aa printer, and they say to me, you know, we got
this competitor.
We don't know how he keeps coming in at thoseprices, and it doesn't make sense.
And I looked at him, and I all I said to himwas like, what do you care?
Why are you I said, he's winning because you'rethinking of him right now, and he's doing the
job.
(35:19):
I said, number one, you're you're a $10,000,000player.
He's a $70,000,000 player.
You can't even compare.
I said, so don't even try to think.
Look at what your costs are.
Look at what you need to do to run yourbusiness.
Yep.
Right?
That person has 20 presses, all the finishing.
Yeah.
(35:39):
And you're running around.
I said, he buys more board in a month than yousell in a year.
And you're asking why?
Run your own race.
And we know bigger is not always better.
And there's different ways to could be sellingless to be more profitable on the bottom line.
Better is better.
I'll tell you this from my own experience.
(36:01):
I made more money at $8,000,000 when I had nodebt running my business ever than when I built
it to $1,920,000,000.
K?
We know it's Top line, for everyone listening,it's really simple schooling.
Top line is ego.
Bottom line runs your business.
(36:22):
Top number, don't compete with anybody.
K?
And the winners, they don't talk about theirbottom line.
And and that's what I've learned to sum up allthese years.
Right?
Because when I started, and and it's fine.
If you're an entrepreneur, you're a businessowner, you wanna build.
The numbers are exciting.
Right?
But don't lose track of why you're here.
(36:43):
And now this is gonna sound even funnierbetter, but now doing what I'm doing, and
unfortunately, I don't have my print company,which I I wish I did.
I miss walking the plank every morning on thatone forty two.
But even now, the other day, called me.
I did a small print job.
Okay?
I sold it for $2,000 I made a thousand.
(37:07):
It's a no brainer.
Right?
If I was working at a print company, I'd get a$100.
I get $200, and the company probably would havesold it at $1,400.
Why?
I had a conversation with the customer.
They know I know what I'm talking about.
I gave them a couple ideas to go along with it.
I suggested why I wouldn't do it like that.
And at the end of the day, they feltcomfortable.
(37:31):
Yeah.
Why do you use the lawyer you use if he's for$800 an hour, $1,200, or $400?
It's a comfort.
You have it's relationship.
I I
just I don't understand it.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, way back when, when cell phones cameout, I remember every quote I did, I would add
$2 on to cover my cell phone after all costingand pricing and selling.
(37:54):
Right?
It was just a mind game of to beat it and addon everything everywhere as opposed to taking
off.
Right?
I mean, you've seen it.
This is what made me this makes me crazy.
I come across a print shop.
We don't charge for washups.
We're on four color.
What are you, an idiot?
Of course, you're washing up and using rags andchemicals to get from one job to the other.
(38:17):
How do you not charge it up?
Right?
Or someone's $250 for a make ready and fourplates.
What are you, an idiot?
We used to charge $300 for plates and a proof,and then CTP changed that because everyone
started hiding it in instead of keeping it out.
And then the printers that went into thepackaging space messed up the packaging guys
because the packaging guys charge dies extra,charge plates extra, redo plates, and the pack
(38:41):
the print people just put it into the price.
Like, you're leaving money on the tableeverywhere thinking you're smarter beating the
system and making less money.
There's a lot of lessons I've learned on price,and I by no means have it all figured out.
But I was asked on a previous podcast, what'sthe biggest advice you give to someone about
(39:04):
pricing?
And I said, know your costs.
Because then if you do wanna do somethingcrazy, at least you do have that clarity.
Or if you do wanna go for the premium, but yougotta have that anchor to know what are you
really working with here.
It's so funny you say that because I I wouldsay to everybody, if you know your cost, you
(39:29):
could make an educated decision for whatever itis.
You wanna lowball it because you've got abigger plan and they're giving you something
else.
You wanna but you know where you stand.
Yep.
You're not
playing Russian roulette because listen.
We all know it.
Right?
We know the minute we take something that it'snot going right.
When a person handed me a PO, that I was like,I don't really want it, or I know I did
(39:54):
something, I look at it, go, oh no, I'm gonnalose my shirt on this one.
And I continue to do it.
The gut doesn't lie in this business.
We know enough, we've been pounded enough toknow when it's going downhill, right?
I mean, thank God for digital today.
We're not printing reflex blue anymore.
Reflex blue on a letterhead or a business cardwould never dry.
(40:14):
Right?
And then you'd have all the offsetting and theredoing of the jobs.
So the way the industry's changed has actuallymade things a little easier for us.
But to everyone listening, things the way theychange, the industry hasn't gotten cheaper.
It's gotten more expensive.
Yeah.
So why people think that what they buy shouldbe less than it was is insane.
(40:36):
I was so excited at COVID in our industry.
Why?
Because paper was scarce and expensive.
And if everybody buys paper at a buck a poundand puts on their markup, whatever they want,
you know, you get more money on the higher thecost of using your markup.
who cares?
I don't want any of us to buy paper at 50¢ apound.
(40:57):
If we all went with a 30% markup on 50¢ apound, 30% on a dollar a pound is better for
all of us.
So, you know, you can't have collusion, butreally you can because look at the gas
companies.
The price is the same for gas on the cornerwhen you have three different gas stations.
So how's that not collusion?
But we'll go that's another conversation withanother industry.
(41:18):
But we could definitely be smarter with what wedo.
And I'm amazed that it's 2025 and we still havethese conversations.
Yeah.
And we're passionate, right?
So for anyone listening, you know Warren,myself, we're glass half full.
And I just see it ripe for opportunities tomodernize, to think different, and help move us
(41:43):
forward to a more profitable future.
And those opportunities are out there.
There's so many op there's there's always anopportunity.
Right?
But people have to people have to wanna makethose opportunities.
Agree.
I was never a believer in this, and I used tokinda laugh at the person who used to say it to
me all the time, but you've gotta put make thatbig v, and you've gotta talk and put it out
(42:06):
into the universe if you want it to happen.
If you keep everything pent up inside toyourself, no one's gonna hear, no one's gonna
know, no one's gonna do anything.
Right?
Put it out.
We talk companies that don't market.
I mean, you're not doing the costing, themarketing.
When times get tough, to me, it's the reason tomarket because nobody else is marketing, and
then people are gonna see you out there,they're gonna wanna deal with you instead of
(42:29):
running away.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, unless you're a public company, yougotta answer to the shareholders, and you cut
your marketing.
But if you're private, don't follow the rulesof the public companies.
Yeah.
Always something to do out there.
Go out on offense, not just live on defense.
Always.
Always.
I I I more companies print companies could worktogether before they go out and buy additional
(42:55):
equipment, and you've got someone within a mileor two of you.
Make friends.
Make a relationship with the understandingthat, hey.
If I were giving you business and I could do xamount of dollars, eventually, I will buy a
piece of equipment.
But until then, you get to benefit from me, AndI benefit from you giving me the preferred
price working together.
He fills up his bottom line contribution.
(43:16):
Yep.
The other person gets the benefit of making afew bucks without having to take on that
additional overhead, And there's plenty of itout there.
But people become, you know, they You shouldn'thave the I need.
I need.
Yeah.
And and you know what?
You gotta watch the OEMs.
Right?
The OEMs will convince you that you haveeverything, and they have everything that you
(43:38):
need, and you need it, but you don't alwaysneed it.
Right?
Let me ask you a question.
Are OEMs and ROIs?
What about it you're saying?
they're
I I I wanted to see if you would jump onsomething But yeah.
So, like, the the OEMs would come into myplace.
Right?
And they wanna know, like, see, I'm bringing ina I wanna buy a piece of digital.
(44:00):
So I won't mention any of the names of them,but they'll come in and they'll, you know,
wanna look and they'll say to me, hey.
You know, why don't you give us everything yourun-in this size on your 40 inch press?
And I'm like, don't fucking touch my 40 inchpress.
I own it, and you can produce 8,000 pieces ofpaper, eight and a half, 11 cheaper than I can
get it on there.
And I don't care about the no make the no thewaste because I'm not paying a click charge,
(44:24):
and I'm not paying a a lease charge to that.
So just take for me the work that I could do onyour machine.
Right?
But so when I ask the ROI stuff, you you dealwith printers.
What do they say or do they say when they goin, and how are they looking at investing in
something new using maybe your view versus theold way?
(44:46):
Sure.
So I see a lot of times it's and I'm only 34,but I've worked a lot of places in our industry
and have heard about the heydays and areaswhere you could go off a gut feeling and make a
press purchase.
In today's environment, if you're not runningthose numbers, both on your own independent of
(45:09):
what what the OEM's numbers may say, that is sodangerous.
And I don't know many people today who whowould be doing that or getting away with gut
feeling.
But to your point, you have to look atunbiased.
It's art and science.
What do the numbers say?
And then, you know, what's the soft, impact ofit as well?
(45:34):
So there's another problem that I see thatmaybe there's a solution out there that you
might have or you can, excuse me, come up with,but a good part of the printers out there just
don't have the human resources or the financialresources or or the nowhere to go to get some
of this done because, like we were saying, themajority is smaller operations.
(45:57):
Right?
In my case, I joined the entrepreneurorganization.
I joined the NAPL for leadership.
I joined every association.
I joined the peer group.
Sure.
When I started, because I was 26 years old, andmy idea back then was surround myself with
people that know better, people that I couldlean on.
So hopefully, I make less mistakes, although Istill make millions of dollars of mistakes.
(46:19):
Right?
And you do it that way.
I don't know what everyone's doing today or ifthey're even reaching out to do to learn from
others because what does the small shop do?
I mean, it's hard enough to make the changefrom the only way you knew to cost doing the
hourly thing to upgrade to modern thinking theway you're doing it, but they're already
(46:42):
working eighty five hours a week.
And where do they figure out how to do whatthey do?
What do we do for those guys, girls?
Yeah.
So in this profitability software, there is anerror saying, what if?
What if we put on this take on this press?
Or what if we do this with labor?
Or what if we spend this on marketing?
(47:02):
How does that shake out bottom line?
Right?
Black and white, does that make us moreprofitable or not?
So making an exercise like that, which is anacquired taste, and someone with without that
kind of background wouldn't have a lot ofsuccess making it through successfully.
How do you bring that to the masses who may nothave that background in a simple way they can
(47:25):
wrap their head around and kind of know if weput the compass this way, is that helping or
hurting?
So I'm passionate about bringing down thattraditional barrier there.
But you had a great point about peer groups,getting involved in the associations.
That's also gold.
And especially when it comes to 6 to 8 figureCapEx investments, you wanna do that right.
(47:48):
So
Oh, you know what?
Today, you cannot build it, and they will come.
I the I I did that.
The last machine I bought, I did that, and thatwas a KBA, Koning Bauer.
I gotta keep calling them KBA.
They're a wide format.
Right?
Okay.
I did a one forty two six color fully loaded UVraised off the ground, printing anything from
(48:11):
two point to 40.
It's a $5,000,000 purchase.
Right?
I I had a bit of a plan, right, because I itwas the only machine within 500 miles of
Montreal.
So that was pretty good.
And my plan was pretty good until a competitorwent out and bought a 56 inches machine as
(48:32):
well.
And the difference was I was planning onpicking up all the oversized workaround, right,
because I had the only one and I could make theprice.
He ended up buying a two year old machine thatwas sitting on, you know, sitting in an OEM's
warehouse, and it wasn't UV, and he paid a lotless, and then he was able to smash me out of
(48:53):
the park in a lot of places because he didn'thave the UV and all that extra overhead.
Sure.
And I found other things to do with it, and webecame one of the largest producers of printed
canvas in North America at the time.
But that was scary because for eighteen or forten months, I had billed it, they will come,
and I built the right thing.
(49:13):
And then, you know, a competitor called me upand said, let's have lunch.
And I kinda just chuckled.
I go, why do you wanna have lunch with me?
I mean, I like the guy.
So we went to have lunch, and he says, listen.
I want you to hear it from me.
I'm putting a bid in on a 56 inch press, butbefore I do that, I wanted to know if there's
something we could do together, and I don'thave to buy it.
(49:34):
And, unfortunately, I would have, you know,would have been merging, making an employment
contract, and I wouldn't have been king.
Sure.
I said no.
It was just I didn't wanna be I I didn't Iwanted to be king.
In the end, it was okay.
Maybe maybe I should have done it, but but thepoint is he called.
He sat down.
But today, you need to know your cost.
(49:55):
You need to know everything you're doing.
Transport today in a business is not what itwas.
There's no more one hour couriers for $18.
They're $45.
Right?
Rent.
Where I live now, and I'm sure it's everywhere,you know, the last lease I had, we were like
$8.09, $10 a square foot all in, then it was a12.
(50:18):
Rates are $18.19, and $20 for industrial spacenow with square foot.
You gotta factor that in right away.
If you were if you have a low cost rent now,why are they not pretending and raising it to
be the current rate so that they're in linewith everybody else instead of winning maybe a
(50:38):
little bit and then scrambling later.
You could make the extra profit now just byplaying with the rent because everyone else is.
Right?
The consumables.
I just don't see enough adjustment happening.
People are more maybe you see it also, butpeople are trying to figure out how to keep it
low, not justify raising it.
(50:59):
Yeah.
We know the stakes are too high, too high.
Right?
But but in their own in their but this is thefunny thing.
In their own lives, when they're not up towork, they make the right decisions with the
things they do, what they buy, how they buy it,and the way they buy it.
And then they get into work, and they, like,all of a sudden, they get, like, blank.
(51:23):
Right?
It's like, treat people the way you want to betreated, service people the way you want to be
serviced.
Don't go off on people.
You know, I'm in a restaurant, and withsomeone, the service is bad.
The person I'm with is, like, losing it.
I'm like, woah, woah, woah.
I said, maybe they're having a bad day.
They didn't make the food.
Don't shoot the messenger because you knowwhat?
One day, you're gonna have a little mess up,and someone's gonna shoot you.
(51:46):
Again, karma.
Put it in the universe.
Positive energy.
Positive thinking.
The in the print industry is not that positiveall the time.
It's And I think It's a battle.
It's challenging economically, but we know someof the most passionate people out there who
deeply care.
So like you've been saying throughout ourconversation, keeping an open mind, thinking
(52:12):
about new approaches that could benefit.
And what's the worst case?
You have an open mind, you hear someone's ideaand you disagree with it.
Well, but at least to have the conversation,maybe it took one thing away from it.
Or try it.
I mean k.
So you had you're meeting somebody.
You have thirty minutes.
You're meeting a printer who, like, is in theis in the gutter.
(52:35):
K.
He's got a decent shop, but his thinking's allbackwards.
Thirty minutes.
Like, what do you say to him in that thirtyminutes to get him to
So I can just go straight to the pain points.
Right?
Can you tell me this month where you're gonnaend up?
Nope.
Can you tell me your most profitable customerindustry or product or this or that?
(52:56):
Not with confidence.
Right?
I there's just a list throughout the company ofthese pain points where it's like, yeah,
exhausting.
So once we quickly establish, hey.
Current state, not fun, then we can get intothere's a better way, and here's how.
(53:17):
Perfect.
And they hopefully just wanna listen.
Yeah.
Does anybody not wanna listen when you starttalking?
I've definitely had some Heisman poses here andthere, but you know what?
Not everyone's gonna be open to change, or hearin different thought points.
(53:39):
So I don't take it personally.
You build thick skin, and they know where tofind you if if they ever change their mind.
So
Oh, I I've got thick skin, but I'm gonna tellyou, my skin is wearing thin.
Right?
Because I think we are in the greatest industryin the entire world.
And when I got into print, it was really asimple and easy thought.
(54:01):
Oh my god, everyone, as a salesperson, everyoneI meet has a need for some form of print.
So all day, day and night, everyone I met foryears, all I was doing was say, Hey, you have
any print?
Do you any print?
You need print?
I'm in the car with a salesman.
Yeah, with my salesman, the phone rings in mycar.
I've said this before.
(54:22):
Person, I answer, they go, Hello.
They go, my god, wrong number.
I go, wait, wait, wait.
I said, now we're on the phone.
I said, I got a question.
I said, like, I'm in the printing business.
Any chance you need some print that we couldtalk about?
Oh, that's good.
And the person on the phone is cracking up andsays, oh my god, I've never had someone try to
solicit me on a wrong call before.
(54:44):
And I love it.
And I said, Hey, I'm just trying to make use ofmy time, and you never know.
And then I said, What do you do?
Maybe I could do something that you have tooffer.
Really?
And I get off the phone, and my salespersonlooks at me, he goes like, you don't expect me
to do that, do you?
I'm like, okay, I might fire you right now.
(55:05):
If anything, shut your mouth.
That is like, right?
I I remember I'm walking in a restaurant in the.com days.
Everyone's doing I walk you by, two guys aretalking at the table about their need and what
they're doing.
And I I just say, oh my god, guys.
I I'm not gonna stop, but here's my card.
I heard you mention the word print packaging.
And if you should need anything, you know, it'smy company.
(55:25):
I'm just selling myself.
And then table was next to them.
And later on in the in the lunch, I heard themtalking about how bad business was and the burn
rate.
And on
the way out, the card was still on the table, Isaid, no.
I don't think I'll be working with you guys.
And everybody was just kinda laughing becauseyou make a little joke about what goes on.
Yeah.
So I think we're in the greatest industry inthe world.
Excuse me.
(55:47):
I love what you're doing.
I will do anything I can with you to help youchange the way this industry thinks and
operates.
Means a lot.
I think that the OEMs should be listening tothis.
And if you have customers that you know, maybeyou bring Nick in because if he helps set them
(56:08):
up right that they understand their business,you might have an easier time selling them one
of those machines.
So this is what I always say.
I say to the printer, I'll back you up onanything you wanna buy if you could answer the
five questions.
You know?
Who are you gonna sell?
How are you gonna sell?
Who's gonna sell it?
Do you know what your cost is?
(56:30):
Do you know what your true cost is when it's onthe floor, and do you know what you're gonna
sell it for?
And if you can't answer any of those fivequestions, don't buy it.
And I say to the OEM, ask your customers thefive questions.
And if they can't answer them, don't sell themthe machine, help them figure out those answers
to the questions, and then you guys will have abetter relationship because it'll be more
(56:54):
grounded.
Agreed.
Problem is the OEMs aren't gonna do that.
They're gonna just sell the machine to anyonethey can regardless of what they say.
And I'm not insulting anybody.
It's business one zero one.
Right?
But there's so many little things thatquestions that could be asked and then answered
to help you move forward.
Yeah.
And my thought is I'm print profit is a neutralplayer here, wanting to help all parties
(57:19):
involved make the best, most informeddecisions.
Yeah.
Me too.
Same thing.
I by the way, I love buying equipment.
I mean, nothing better than going in.
It's like better than buying a car, actually,buying a press or something new or being the
right?
But I want everyone to be sound in thisbusiness.
I want everyone to have a good financialfoundation.
I want everyone to know what they're doing.
(57:39):
I want them to make money.
That's why you're in business, to make money,and you're allowed to make money.
Yeah.
Right?
Hard.
We take on risk.
We we we are we are, as an industry, prettyheavy on the risk side compared to others.
Right?
You know, a lot of people, a lot of businessesbuying, selling, doing, creating, but they
(58:01):
ain't laying out $3.04, $5,000,000 on the floorYep.
To to get it to make it go.
Yeah.
Right?
It's it's kinda crazy.
Oh, man.
I'm like, I'm just starting to get going, butwe're gonna cut this one.
It's not short, but we're gonna cut it now.
A couple quick things.
Number one, as I said, anything I could do tohelp you with anybody, I think this is the
(58:23):
greatest thing since I got into this business.
And now that I'm not a printer per se withequipment on the floor, I wanna help every
printer get to the point where they should be.
Now, if you have a family, you gotta get onthis right away because you wanna keep passing
this on to the family.
Right?
You wanna end it.
We're gonna have another podcast when you'reready because what I'd like to do next time is
(58:46):
show people just some small examples of what itis that you might be doing to get them to kinda
wet their lips and wanna know a little more.
Let's bring an owner
on maybe one generation younger and get the whydo they think different?
Oh my God.
I love that.
I love that.
Done.
Done.
We are doing that.
We'll speak after to do that.
(59:08):
Any final words to the viewers before we go?
Yeah.
Grateful for this opportunity.
I'd say just in the spirit of our conversation,we've got an incredible industry.
We want nothing but a bright and prosperous andprofitable future.
I love the opportunity, to learn more aboutyour business and and see how this
profitability software can help you get whereyou're looking to go.
(59:31):
So, Warren, thanks for all you're doing being aspokesperson for our industry pushing it
forward.
And to you listening, thanks for tuning in andand hearing two guys who love print.
Cool.
So when I'm when this gets posted, I'll put thewebsite there.
And, if you wanna give me perhaps a, Calendlylink, I could put that on if people want to
(59:53):
register.
Awesome.
You know, or we'll figure out something, andthen I'll post it so people have easy access to
you.
And I think that'll be a lot of fun.
To everybody listening, I really, really hopethat you, enjoyed this as much as I did.
I hope you're sitting there going, oh, man.
I'm doing it the right way.
(01:00:13):
I'm so happy.
I'm profitable.
I also hope you're sitting there going, oh,man.
I'm a loser.
I have not been doing it the right way.
I'm losing my shirt.
I'm gonna sit down.
I'm gonna call Nick, and I'm gonna figure thisshit out because you know what?
There's no reason I'm not on top.
Right?
And if you are a owner and you're single andyou fish, more money.
Lifescope is expensive these days on the boat.
(01:00:37):
All of that to say, folks, love you all.
Love printing.
Stay tuned.
Reach out if you have anything you wanna say,and we will see you back here soon.
Nick, thank you again.
Thanks, Warren.
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