BONUS 1 of 2: The Managing Partners Podcast with RJon Robins

Redefining success and the critical mindset shift law firm owners should embrace as entrepreneurial professionals who sell legal services.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
While RJon was awayTeam RJon came to play.
Well the cat's out of the bag now, folks.
But we're still here bringing youour favorite, and most importantly,
actionable insights to RJon's newestbook, Profit First for Lawyers.
We're going to help you accelerateyour law firm's growth so that
you can experience more profitin every aspect of your life.

(00:22):
We're also going to be providing somebehind the scenes footage at what it's
really like to work with RJon Robins.
So, put your B.S.
Aside for the next few minutesand put yourself, your family,
your firm, and your profit first.
Well, hey there folks, did you miss us?
Well, welcome back to the ProfitFirst for Lawyers podcast.

(00:45):
I'm your host, Karli, and you'rein luck because today I'm here to
share two very exciting things.
First up, a very special announcement.
Drum roll, please!
Profit First for Lawyers iscoming back with a season two!
That's right folks, even more greatcontent will be coming your way very soon.

(01:06):
We're going to continue bringing youthe actionable insights that you've
been looking forward to that willmake your law firm more profitable.
So hit that button to like and subscribeand be prepared for new episodes soon.
And secondly, we didn't want to leave youhanging while you wait for new episodes.
So today, I'm kicking off a specialbonus two part series for you based

(01:27):
on an interview that RJon gavewhen he was invited to be a guest
on The Managing Partners Podcast.
This interview was so packed full ofgreat information, delivered only in
that special way that RJon can, that itwas split up into two highly profitable,
actionable, insightful episodes that willhelp your law firm be more profitable.
So here's part one.

(01:48):
In this episode, you're going to learnsome marketing tips that will help
you to identify your ideal avatar.
You're going to learn why you should stopthinking of yourself as a lawyer and start
thinking of yourself as an entrepreneurwho happens to sell legal services.
And you're going to hear RJonget pretty fired up about why you
have an ethical responsibilityto run a profitable law firm.

(02:08):
This is a really good one, folks.
So hang on to your hatsand prepare for a ride.
Let's roll the clip.
All right.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofThe Managing Partners Podcast.
This is Kevin Daisey here, alwaystrying to bring you the best
guests and best information.
And today, I have the allfamous RJon Robins on the show.

(02:34):
RJon, welcome.
Hey, Kevin.
How are you?
I've listened to theshow for a while here.
I'm glad to finally be on.
Thank you for having me.
Well, you know, we had topull some strings, but, we
were able to get you a spot.
So, I go where my team tells me to go.
I do what my team tells me to do.
I appreciate it.
So, everyone, tune it in.

(02:54):
Attorneys.
If you don't know RJon, I'd be shocked.
I like to pretend as if you may not.
So I want to have RJon give alittle bit of a background on
himself, where he is now and whathe's up to and how he got there.
So I always like a good story.
And so, we'll start with that.

(03:17):
One second before that, RJon.
You can go to HowToManage.Com.
If you're listening onaudio, it's HowToManage.Com.
You can see RJon's companies.
And check him out and we'llget into more of that in just a
moment and dive deep into howhe helps law firms grow in scale.

(03:39):
So RJon give us a littlebackground yourself, sir
Uh, well how far backdo you want me to go?
I'll tell you today, How to MANAGE aSmall Law Firm, we manage almost 700
of the fastest growing most profitablelaw firms that anyone will probably
ever see, hear of, or imagine.

(04:00):
The biggest challenge we have in marketingis people don't actually believe that
what we do regularly is possible.
But 10 years ago I was flat broke.
And, I think it's important.
I like to tell bothbookends of that story.

(04:23):
Because, I like to tell people that,like, literally, if I could do this,
if I could, go from being flat brokein 2008, 2009 to, you know, Inc.
$5,000 9 years in a row, $30 plus billiondollars in revenue, I mean, like anyone
can do this, it's, anyone can builda million dollar law firm in about 36

(04:51):
to 48 months, literally from scratch.
Regardless of practice area,regardless of what market you're in.
I mean, there might be somebizarre, weird, you're living
in the middle of Alaska withnothing around you, but reindeer.
And, you know, even now with theinternet, you can still do it.
The point I'm trying to makeis I don't think people really

(05:14):
care that much about me.
I think people care about what,How To MANAGE can do for them.
And so if you want me to tell youall about me, I'll be happy to, you
know, indulge and tell you all about.
Myself, but I just think it's probablymore important for the audience to know
what, How To MANAGE can do for them.

(05:36):
A lot of what we can do for them anda lot of what we will do for them.
We can do for free andwe will do for free.
We have an app that theycan download for free.
All kinds of resources because wedon't need to hide anything.
You want me to tell you about me?
I mean, you want to know where I grew up?
I grew up in Miami.

(05:58):
Well, I will say this.
I have a dog.
His name is peanut.
Well,
I appreciate that.
And I think, you know, I'd ratherfocus on How To MANAGE, and what you
do and how you can help these folks.
And that's what the show is all about.
And so just to kind of back up andgive my perspective, so I'm in law

(06:21):
firm marketing, so we're literallytrying to help law firms grow,
but we're on the outside, right?
So we're not able tocontrol operational things.
We're not able to controltheir sales processes.
We're not able to make themprofitable necessarily.
So, but what I do see, andso I have, I have a sheet.

(06:44):
So if a law firm calls me like,'Hey, we're interested to talk.'
I interviewed them and I have about40 questions that I asked them.
"What is your revenue?"
"What's your average client worth?"
what is- "How many leads are you gettingright now from different sources?"
"What is your currentagency engagement look like?
Have you had multiple agencies?"

(07:05):
I just, we asked a ton of questionsand I don't show them anything.
I don't share anything.
I don't walk them through a slide deck.
It's the interview.
It's a "Are we a fit for you?"
"Do we feel like we can help you?"
And "Are you in the right place withyour business to be able to hire
us and have a good relationship?"
And so, What I'm getting at is...

(07:27):
if those questions that they justpull them off the top of their heads,
like they have financial reports thatmorning, I know, and I'll say, 'Hey,
are you part of any organizationslike a mastermind or a group?'
And they're like, 'How To MANAGE'.
And so I can pick them out of agroup now very quickly just because
the way they carry themselves, thethings they're thinking about and

(07:48):
every How To MANAGE member that'sa client of mine or a prospect.
knows their numbers.
They know everything offthe top of their head.
And most business owners don't havea clue about any of that stuff and
how it affects their, their business.
So the testament to you all that if, ifI see a How To MANAGE member, I already

(08:10):
know they are a How To MANAGE memberjust by having a conversation with them.
And so whatever y'all have doneand the systems you put in place
and the help you, you put in place.
Is very obvious
when I-
I'll tell you what we do.
And, and I'm happy to sharethis with your audience and I'm
happy to share this with anyone.
And I've been sharing the same thing.

(08:30):
I've been standing on some soap boxes,preaching this stuff for 20 years now.
You know, I started off, I was beinga little facetious earlier about no
one really cares about me, but let megive it just a smidge of background.
Bringing it back!
Well, just a little bit, just becauseI think it gives some context.
I went to law school.

(08:54):
Basically because I didn'tknow what else to do.
Cause I was just a total fuckup 23 year old who majored in
partying and girls in college.
I just needed a place to hide out.
So I went to law school.
When I graduated from law school,I, started my own law firm.

(09:15):
I worked for a federal bankruptcyjudge for a little while, and
then I started my own law firm.
And it was a disaster.
I didn't know anything about marketing.
I didn't know anything about sales.
I didn't know anything aboutproduction, workflow processes,
systems, procedures, standardization.
I didn't know anything abouthiring, training, managing,
making a profit with people.
I didn't know anythingabout financial controls.

(09:35):
I didn't know anythingabout physical plant.
And I didn't understand that alaw firm is a business, right?
Part of the way that I grew my business,this might shock you as a digital
marketer, but I originally built mybusiness, How to MANAGE a Small Law
Firm after I was broke, I had no money.
I had no resources.
So I just went and gotin front of audiences.

(09:57):
And I got together with local barassociations all over the country
and I would stand in front of theseaudiences and I would talk about
the business, I'm running a law firm.
I'm getting ahead of myself.
Let me back up.
So I have my own law firm.
It was a disaster.
It was losing money.
It was making me miserable.
I was stressed out.
I didn't see any hope.
And then I discovered that the FloridaBar had a department called the Law

(10:20):
Office Management Assistance Service.
And the Law Office Management AssistanceService was created back in 1980 when
the president of the Florida Bar at thetime, a guy by the name of Sam Smith,
he realized that the bar was prosecutingmore lawyers because of law firm
management problems than any other reason.

(10:41):
54 percent of bar grievances filednationally, by the way, and, not
coincidentally, 54 percent ofmalpractice actions filed nationally.
start off as a avoidablelaw firm management problem.
The owner of the law firm doesn't reallythink of it like a business and so

(11:01):
they don't treat it like a business.
And so they don't put the processesand the systems and the procedures in
place for it to run like a business.
And so it runs over them and, youknow, makes their life miserable
and creates all kinds of problems.
So there I was running my law practice.
And it was making me miserable.
And I discovered the Florida bar had thelaw office management assistance service,

(11:25):
and I called them for help and I told themthe problems that I was having and they
were able to very quickly and very easily.
I thought I was some special snowflakewith some special problems and no.
Well, you are.
You are.
No, I'm not.
It's, listen, I can't remember thelast time someone brought me a new,

(11:48):
interesting, novel, unique law firmmanagement problem that I hadn't
seen at least a hundred times before.
And that's good news that noone wants to be the person
they named the disease after.
Right?
What you want to do is you want togo to the doctor and you want the
doctor to say, 'Oh, don't worry.
We've seen this hundreds of timesbefore.' 'We know exactly what to do.'
'You'll be back on your feet in no time.'

(12:09):
'Don't worry about it.' Right?
That's the rational thing.
So they said, 'look, the problems you'redescribing are effects.' They didn't
say it in exactly these terms, but 'Theproblems you're having are effects.'
'These effects are caused by certainactions or inactions.' 'And if you'll

(12:29):
change these actions, the effects willget better and take care of themselves.'
And so I did what they said to do.
Things got better.
I called them back and I said,'Here's my next problem.' And they
told me what to do and I did it.
Things got better.
And I called and said, 'Hey, I, now Ihave a new problem!' 'Cause the solution
to the old problem created a new andbetter problem.' 'What do I do now?'

(12:52):
Anyway, this went on for months.
And my law firm started to turn aroundand start to work for me instead of
me having to work for my law firm.
And I said to J.
R.
Phelps, who was the directorof the Florida Bar Law Office
Management Assistance Service atthe time, I said, 'Hey, listen.
I'm having a lot more fun withthe business side of my law firm

(13:16):
than even the practice of law.'
And to make a very, very, very longstory short, he ended up recruiting me
and I became the first and still today,the only lawyer in the history of the
state of Florida to serve as a fulltime Small Law Firm Management Advisor.
And so I was there for almost four years.

(13:36):
And it's a documented fact thatduring that time I worked with over
9,000 law firms on every aspectof starting marketing, managing,
buying, selling, you name it.
If there's a way to screw up theway a law firm runs, we've seen it,
right?, and it's not like 'I'm sosmart.' I'm not like coming out, this

(13:58):
is saying 'I'm smart and you're stupid!
And that's why I know how to fix yourproblem.' No, it's just, I've seen it over
and over and over and over and over again.
Right?
And what you're saying too,
It's not just like anomaly.
It's like, it's, you know, the problemsthat they're the same for every law firm.
Look, if you go to the store and you buyone of those boxes to make a cake, right.

(14:22):
And you follow theinstructions on the box.
And you put in the egg and you put inthe milk and you put in the water and
you, you mix it up the way they say tomix it up and you put it in the right
size pan that they say to put it in andyou stick it in the preheated oven and
the right temperature that they say topreheat the oven and you leave it in the
oven at the right amount of time thatthey say to leave it in the oven for.
Are you surprised when acake comes out at the end?

(14:45):
Is it like,
'Oh my God, how did thathappen?' It's engineered.
Look, law firms are verysimple businesses to run.
That breaks the heart of thousands oflawyers right now listening to this.
Law firms are very simple businessesto run compared to an HVAC company,

(15:05):
compared to a moving company, comparedto a restaurant, compared to a shoe
store, compared to any of these otherkinds of businesses that, if we're
all being honest with ourselves, weknow most lawyers look down on the
people that own those businesses.
'Oh, look at me.
I'm special.
I own a law firm.' Yeah, their businessesare more complicated to run than yours is.
Law firms are very easy to run.
I'm sorry?

(15:25):
Yeah.
I said supply chain, equipment,all kinds of other...
Oh my god.
There's so many more moving parts.
A law firm, let's start off with, let'sstart off with barriers to entry.
There's way more barriers to entryto start a restaurant or an HVAC
company or a shoe store than there arebarriers to entry to start a law firm.

(15:48):
Right?
Working capital.
You need way more working capitalto start and to continue running
and growing an HVAC company, arestaurant, a shoe store, a...
You name it, any other kind of abusiness practically than a law firm.
Staffing complexities, right?

(16:11):
The risks you run running a movingcompany, the risks you run running a
plumbing company that goes in and fixespeople's plumbing toilets in their house,
the risks you run running a restaurantare way more dangerous and way more risky
than the risks you run running a law firm.

(16:31):
The profit margins of a law firmare when it's run even badly.
When you run a law firm, even badly,the profit margins are so much higher
than the profit margins of almost anyother kind of a business you can imagine
that you can actually afford to run yourbusiness really badly with a law firm,
and still you get by, which is why morelawyers think that they're doing okay.

(16:57):
Anyway, the point I'm making is, lawfirms are very simple businesses to run.
You put the right things in place,you keep the right things maintained
and going, you get amazing results.
you don't put the right things inplace or you put them in place and
then you neglect them, you're goingto get predictably bad results.
And you know, this is why I sayit's like, I'm not a genius.

(17:20):
My- we've got an amazing team ofprofessional law firm management
advisors, CEOs who come in and theyprovide CEO services and COO services
and CFO services and CMO services forhundreds and hundreds and hundreds of
small law firms all over the country.
We're not geniuses.

(17:42):
We just, it's just not thatcomplicated if you know how to do it.
And if you keep doing it and doing it anddoing it and doing it, doing it day after
day, after day, after day, after day,after day, after, which is why lawyers
don't do it because it gets boring.
We do the boring stuff.
No, I mean, you're spot on.
And, you know, it's, I do haveguests on the show here that, you

(18:05):
know, they run as a business, theyfall in love with the business side.
And I've had other, a lot of folksI've talked to that I've had a guest
or prospects that don't show upbecause they're tied to their desk.
They've had the law firm for 30 years.
They have an admin assistant.
And they're in court or running aroundlike crazy and they- there's, I don't

(18:29):
know if there's anyone that can helpthem at that point, but they're just
completely working six days a week,
tied to their desk, not scaling.
We help hundreds of peoplelike that every single year.
Yeah.
And I try to
refer them to you, to be
honest with you.
Those aren't like, those aren'tlike our favorite kind of people
to work with, but we do help themhundreds of them every kind of year.
Our favorite kind of person.

(18:50):
Look, people come to us, people cometo How To MANAGE in two states, right?
They come to us in a state of inspiration.
They come to us in a state of desperation.
It's much more fun to work withsomeone who's coming to you inspired
because they've had a taste ofsuccess and they know what's possible.
And they're like, 'Help me, helpme, help me squeeze everything I can

(19:12):
out of this thing and use it to givemyself and my family a better life.'
And of course we also work with peoplewho are desperate and they're like,
'I can't keep doing this anymore.
I don't know what to do.
I don't see light atthe end of the tunnel.
Just help me.' Either way.
Yeah.
The worst people to work with are thoseambivalent people in the middle, which

(19:34):
by the way, there's a piece of marketingadvice for every lawyer listening to
the podcast or watching the podcast.
Your ideal clients are probablycoming to you in a state of
inspiration or a state of desperation.
The ambivalent people in the middlewill suck the profits out of your
law firm and make you miserable.

(19:55):
Yep, 100%.
And that's the same for my kind of client.
Like, it's hard for me to help someone indesperation, even though you want to, but
this might not be possible for us to do.
You can help them.
Why can't you help them in desperation?
Kevin, you can 100 percent helpsomeone in a state of desperation.
If they're really desperate.
I think the problem is theysay they're desperate, but

(20:16):
they're not really desperate.
See, a desperate person iswilling to heed the advice.
What we call TayeAstuya.
TayeAstuya means Take All YourExcuses And Shove Them Up Your Ass.
Just fucking do this.

(20:36):
Let it work for you.
A person who is not desperate enough.
What they're going to do isthey're going to say, 'Well,
explain to me how this works.' Youdon't need to know how it works.
I mean, do you know how the antilag brake system on your car works?
No, you do not, right?
You do not know how thebrakes in your car work.

(20:57):
And yet you get in your car every daywith your family and you drive and you
expect them to stop and you rely on them.
Do you know how thelights work in your house?
No, you flip the switchand the lights go on.
There's a million things in yourlife you depend on for your life.
And you don't have a clue how it works
and you don't need to.
You don't need to!
You need to know that it worksand you need to know that if it

(21:19):
doesn't work, it's not reallygoing to do you any damage, right?
So you do a small test.
And you get a little result and itworks and then you reinvest a little
bit of time and energy and faith andhope and trust and belief and some
money and then it works a little bitbetter and so you reinvest and it works

(21:40):
a little bit better and you reinvestand it works a little bit better.
You can help desperate people.
I think that you, I think that whensomeone says they're desperate and
they give you all those excuses,they're not really desperate.
Yeah, they become harder to workwith, I think, in that state, that
state of mind that they're in.

(22:02):
Well, that's the key to all of thisis, you know, really, if you boil
it all down, How to MANAGE a SmallLaw Firm is primarily a personal
development business for entrepreneurswho happen to own law firms.
And that I think isreally what sets us apart.
And I'm pretty sure that, you know,I guess we'll take bets on how long

(22:26):
it takes before a bunch of peopleare out there saying that 'They're
doing, mindset work or personaldevelopment for entrepreneurs.' Right?
But, That's what we do.
We've always been a personaldevelopment business for
entrepreneurs who own law firms.
And then we come in and we put in themarketing, the marketing systems and the

(22:48):
sales systems and the operational systemsand the staffing systems and the financial
control systems and the dashboard.
So you can track and know what's goingon in your business, you know, so to help
you go away for 30 days with emergencyaccess only, which is really what we try
to achieve with our, with our members.
But, really it's all about mindset
because if you know-.

(23:08):
How many lawyers working right now, wouldlike to, disappear for 30 days and
totally doable.
And your law firm still runs
100 percent totally doable.
You can, you can take the worst shitshow imaginable and you can get to
the place where you can be away for30 days with emergency access only.
And while you're away.
The marketing's still working.

(23:29):
Sales is still converting prospectiveclients into paying clients.
The work's still getting produced.
You're still got revenue coming in.
The bills are still getting paid.
The staff is still being,managed and controlled.
The firm is still profitable.
Clients are still being served.
Clients are happy.
And you get a dashboard while you'reaway to know that everything's

(23:51):
working the way it should be working.
And that's why we say 'Away with emergencyaccess only.' And if there's an emergency,
you'll know there's an emergency.
You get up off the beach, you go tothe business center, you solve the
emergency, you go back to your family.
Or, you know, a lot of our members,what they do is they take that 30
days off with emergency access onlyand they work on the business for a

(24:12):
month and then, bam, take it to thenext level and that's really fun, too.
Well, a good example.
You were just in Paris for how long?
I was, I was gone for thatwhole trip for 45 days.
About a month of it was Paris.
Sure.
Then we went to California.
Yeah, but, how many emergenciesdid you have to respond to or?

(24:35):
I know you were working on the business.
I'm sure.
Yeah.
Emergencies?
None.
And by the way, that trip,there were no emergencies.
I don't want to pretendlike I don't have to.
Listen, I was in the jungle.
I knew you went on that trip andI know, you know, there's proof
that, you know, you can go away.
You can get this to happen.

(24:55):
It can work.
Oh, I only work in mybusiness about 90 days a year.
The rest of the time mybusiness is running for me.
without me except on an emergency basis.
If there's an emergency, I step back in.
Got it.
Yeah.
So how many folks listening wouldlike to, to be at that point?

(25:17):
Right.
So,
you know, you know who myfavorite people to work with are?
My favorite, favorite, favoritepeople to work with are.
Expectant first time moms.
I love working withexpectant first time moms.
They come to us and they're like,'I just got pregnant in nine months.
I got to take a real maternity leave.'They are ready to take all their

(25:38):
excuses, shove them up, shove themup their ass and just get it done.
And in nine months, bam,we can make things happen.
Those are my favorite people to workwith because they don't make excuses.
They had a real strong, powerfulmotivation to get it done.
They got a timeline, right?
They gotta, they gotta meet it.
So.
Yeah.
That's a good, that's interesting.

(25:59):
That makes sense to me.
Yeah, a kid, having a kid willsmack you in the face real quick.
So,
absolutely.
So, what,
You know, actually, so with How ToMANAGE, you know, we have a lot of
clients, I was telling RJon, we havea lot of clients that are members and,
um, and they hold our feet to the fire.
They're, you know, theygot their shit together.

(26:19):
And we've worked with a lotof your CFOs, CEOs, CMOs.
directly, on calls with our clients.
And so, you know, How To MANAGE hasgot these expert people sitting there
with this, with you as a lawyer, alaw firm, looking over these things
and walking you through the processand putting these things in place.

(26:40):
So it's not just, a DIYtype of situation here.
And we do have DIY solutionsalso, but I just want to say, you
know, because you're nice enoughto have me on your podcast.
So I'll give you a plug, which by theway, Kevin did not ask me to say this,
but I will, you know, if the reportthat I got back from our CEOs and

(27:01):
our CFOs and our CMOs was that 'Arraysucks!' I would not have accepted
the invitation to be on the podcast.
Well, I appreciate that.
I really do.
Well, cause we get a lot ofinvitations and the first thing
I do is I talk to my team.
I'm like, 'What do you knowabout this company?' And they're
like, 'Oh no, don't go there.'
Yeah.
Cause it's almost like you're, you'resomewhat promoting for some reason.

(27:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't associate withpeople who don't do good work.
I appreciate that.
And, and that means a lot.
I really appreciate that.
And, you know, but again, you know, HowTo MANAGE we, when we have a member of
this, How To MANAGE, we know it, I know itbefore they even walk in the door and, uh,
they just carry themselves differently.
Again, they know theirnumbers, they know everything.

(27:45):
It's like they've been trained, you know,they're just a totally different person.
They have been trained.
You know, James Grant, out of Georgia.
Uh huh.
He's a member.
He's,
I know Jimmy Grant.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jimmy.
He was on,
I don't know all of ourmembers, but I know Jimmy,
I wouldn't expect you to know all of them.
But Jimmy, what an awesome story he's got.

(28:07):
And, he's so he's dialed into itand, he's got a unique business
model, doing some really cool things.
And, and he's like, man, he'slike, 'I'm not, I wasn't smart.
I didn't do well in school.' He's.
He's like, 'I don't even deserveto be where I'm at.' He's running
a law firm like a business.
He does deserve to be where he's at!
That's the thing.
You deserve to be where you're at.

(28:28):
Yeah, but you deserveto be where you're at.
If you do...
Successful law firms are successfulbecause the owners of successful
law firms do the things thatcause law firms to be successful.
Unsuccessful law firms are unsuccessfulbecause the owners of unsuccessful law

(28:52):
firms either refuse to do the thingsthat successful law firm owners do Or
they do a bunch of dumb shit that causestheir law firms to remain unsuccessful.
Having a successful law firm has nothingto do with where you went to law school.
It has nothing to dowith how hard you work.
It has nothing to dowith how smart you are.

(29:12):
It has nothing to do with, you know,whether you were, the right race
or the right- came from the rightplace, or you love a certain way, or.
It's got nothing to dowith any of this stuff.
It's very, very, very mechanical.
And this breaks the heart of thousands andthousands of lawyers when they hear this.

(29:34):
It's very-.
I love it!
That's awesome right there.
That is just the bestthing I've heard all day.
That is a hundred percent like that's it.
And I think a lot of these lawyers arelike, 'well, just do good work, put your
head down and the law firm will prosper.'
That's not what causes lawfirms to be successful.
So I told you, I builtmy business originally.
So I was with the Florida bar.

(29:55):
I had worked with thousands and thousandsand thousands of law firm owners.
I mean, it's a documentedfact in bar records.
I was something of a well knownauthority in a very small world
of small law firm management.
I, then, then my wife got sick and.

(30:18):
Because I had failed to follow my ownadvice about creating processes and
systems and procedures and all the stuffwe teach our members to do now and help
our members to do now, because I'd failedto follow my own advice when Ale got
sick, my whole practice fell apart likereally fast and we lost our house to

(30:39):
foreclosure and you know, we went broke.
And, I mean, it was bad.
Like I literally was scraping upmoney to buy groceries some weeks,
and that's not an exaggeration.
And it's because I didn't do the thingsthat owners of successful businesses do.

(31:01):
And I did the things that ownersof unsuccessful businesses do.
And, then I went out and I goton the national CLE speaking tour.
So Microsoft, LexisNexis, LawPay,Ruby Receptionist, they sponsored
this national speaking tour.
I went on the road and basically taughtthousands and thousands and thousands

(31:23):
of lawyers with local bar associationsand law schools about the business
of running a successful law firm.
And...
I forgot where I was going with this.
I had a point.
I totally forgot my point.
You said something.
Well, you
basically, I think we're, we weretalking about, well, I was talking about

(31:45):
Jimmy Grant and, being smart enough or,
What was I talking about?
This is how they know the show's.
Not scripted
. This is not scripted!
Because I totally,
I'll bring, I'll bring in An actor.
I was gonna make a really good point too.
It was gonna,
oh, you lost everything.
Now I remember!
Now I remember.
So I was on the, so I was so,I was, you gotta put that down.

(32:06):
It's distracting the shit outta me.
I'm sorry.
You can go do it outside,but doing it there.
My tech guy who set up allthe lights and everything.
He's sitting there watching, which isfine, but he's like checking his phone.
It's like distracting the shit out of it.
This is all
part of the script!
I promise.
I had an assistant years ago andshe would take notes on her phone.

(32:27):
She's a, what I refer toas a fucking millennial.
And she would take notes on herphone and it would drive me insane.
Cause I'm old school, right?
I'm 52 years old.
So, and she'd be like,'Look I'm taking notes.
I'm taking notes.
This is all business.
I'm not checking my email or text orwhatever.' And I'm like, 'I know, but
you gotta-.' It just drives me crazy.
Anyway,
that's why I
want to do interviews with, uh,with attorneys that are prospects,

(32:50):
because if, if I'm on my phone ona video call with you, you'd be
like, 'What the hell are you doing?'
Right.
I'm taking notes for real.
This is a pet peeve of mine.
And, and it's ironic becauseone of my biggest pet peeves
are people who have pet peeves.
But anyway, the point I'mmaking, I remember, I remember
the point of the story.
The story was, I used to go and I'dbe in front of, you know, lawyers,

(33:13):
like a hundred lawyers at a timein the National CLE Speaking Tour.
And I asked them a question.
And the question is, "What'sthe business of a law firm?"
And I was in front of thousands oflawyers over the couple of years that I
was doing the National CLE Speaking Tour.

(33:33):
After I only got like 23 correctanswers, thousands of lawyers,
only 23 correct answers.
Nowadays I get correct answers allthe time because people watch my
videos, but there was a time wherelike no one ever heard of me and
I only got 23 correct answers.
"What's the business of a law firm?"
And the problem is lawyersconfuse the job of a lawyer

(33:56):
with the business of a law firm.
And, and I say, okay, well, and theysay, 'Well, the business of a law firm
is to protect people's rights.' 'Thebusiness of a law firm is to enforce the
law.' 'The business of a law firm is tohelp people with their legal problems.'
'The business of a law firm is to makeclients happy.' 'The business of a law
firm is to...' Someone would alwaysbe a smart one, and 'The business of a
law firm is to make money.' No, that'snot the business of a law firm either.

(34:19):
And I say, 'Well, what's thebusiness of a restaurant?
What's the business of a, of a hotel?'
The business of a hotel is to rentrooms, the Ritz Carlton and the
motel six, they're in the samebusiness because they're both in
the business of renting rooms.
Now, the Ritz Carlton uses onestrategy and the motel six uses

(34:39):
a different strategy, but they'reboth in the same business, right?
Did we rent more rooms?
At a lower cost of rent of acquisitionand a lower cost of goods sold to
deliver the service, the businesswas more profitable, right?
What's the business of a restaurant?
The business of a restaurantis not to serve food.

(35:00):
I serve food at my house all the time.
That doesn't make me a restaurant.
The business of arestaurant is to sell food.
That's the business of a restaurant.
Ruth's Chris Steak House, McDonald's,both in the same business, right?
They're both in thebusiness of selling food.
They have different strategies.
They serve a different avatar.
Different processes.
Different processes, different product,but still the same business, right?

(35:23):
If you went to the owner of a Ruth'sChris Steak House and you said,
'Listen, if you'll install plastictables and chairs and bolt them to
the floor and put a play pan out back.
You'll sell more $100 stakes.
That's something maybe we shouldconsider, right?' But it's
a different business model.
So the problem is mostlawyers who, by the way.

(35:47):
In to let everyone off the hook.
You know, I went to law schooltoo, and they didn't teach me
anything in law school about thebusiness of running a law firm.
They didn't teach me howto market legal services.
They didn't teach me howto sell legal services.
They didn't teach me how to sit downand document processes and systems and
procedures so that my law firm couldefficiently, consistently, predictably,

(36:11):
profitably, and professionallydeliver a high quality work product.
Even when I'm not there.
Because I'm on away foremergency access only.
They didn't teach me how to hire, train,manage, and make a profit with staff.
Even if I took, I didn't happen to take,but even if I took employment law classes,
they don't teach you that in employmentlaw classes on how to hire, train, and
manage and make a profit with staff.

(36:33):
They didn't teach me financial controls.
They don't teach us in law schoolabout the business of running a law,
the business of running a law firm.
Law school is a trade school.
Law school teaches you the trade.
They teach you how to do the job of alawyer to work for the owner of a law
firm who runs the business of a law firm.

(36:55):
So the business,
right?
It's the trade,
the business of the world,
You learn how to weld, not to run a
welding company.
I'm sorry.
Say again.
I'll say it's just like if you're,you were taught how to weld, right?
You learn the trade of welding.
It doesn't mean you know how torun a welding company, right?
So.
Exactly.

(37:15):
Welding was going to be my next example.
That was part of
the script I have right here.
So.
Yeah.
Welding.
Make sure we talk about welding.
So, um, I'm laughing because Iactually do know how to weld.
I actually want to get a welder andI build stuff all the time and that's

(37:36):
the next thing on my list as well.
So.
After the podcast is over, let's get on azoom and I'll take you into my basement.
I have a whole, I used tosculpt with scrap metal.
And I have, and with, witha, with a, with a TIG welder.
And then I used to blow up.
Yeah.
And a blowtorch.
Well, you're going to
save that for another episode,uh, welding with RJon.

(37:57):
In my bookshelf here somewhere, I'vegot like all my welding books, but
anyway, the point I'm getting at hereis the business of a law firm is not
the same thing as the job of a lawyer.
And this is really how we're ableto transform the performance so
quickly is because we change themindset of the owner of the law firm.

(38:22):
And, and most of our members, ifyou talk to them, If they've been
with us for any length of time.
And I'm sure if you ask Jimmy, you say,'What do you do?' And they're going
to say, 'I'm an entrepreneur,' right?
I'm an entrepreneur and I own abusiness and the business that
I own happens to be a law firm.

(38:45):
The business of a law firmfor everyone who's listening.
So I don't want to leave youon a cliffhanger and hide this.
The business of a law, the businessof a law firm is to sell, deliver
and get paid for legal services.
The business of arestaurant is to sell food.
The business of a rest ofa hotel is to rent rooms.

(39:08):
The business of a law firm is tosell legal services and deliver.
Obviously that's the businessof the law firm to do that.
The owner of the restaurantneeds to hire a chef.
Or maybe a cook to do that.
The owner of the hotelneeds to hire a desk clerk.

(39:30):
They need to hire a maintenance person.
They need to hire a housekeeping staff.
The owner of the law firm has to hire alawyer to work for the law firm to sit in
the kitchen cooking up the services thatget sold by the server in front of house.

(39:51):
I'm obviously mixing upanalogies to make the point here.
I love it.
And the sooner that everyonelistening to this podcast can
stop thinking of yourself.
As a lawyer and start thinking of yourselfas being the owner of a business that
sells legal services, shift your mindset.
The sooner your law firm, I promise you,will start to be more profitable and

(40:13):
start to work for you instead of youhaving to keep working for your law firm.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And here's one of the biggest thingsthat I see, with issues or, or mindset
shift when I'm talking to lawyers, I'vespoken to many lawyers that are In the,

(40:35):
in the understanding that it's unethicalto scale or grow or market, it's referral
only, that's, you know, I'm all aboutthe law and I'm, I'm by the book, and so
Wait, what are you
saying?
Kevin, what are you, Kevin, whatare you, what are you saying?
I feel like I feel like I losttrack of this conversation.

(40:57):
What are you saying?
So sometimes I'm talking to attorneysthat are in the mindset that there's,
they have integrity as a lawyer.
They don't want to market.
They don't want to grow because that's notthe way they should be running a business.
Can I speak, can I speak,like, in RJon language?
You can, yes.
That's the dumbest fuckingthing in the world.

(41:19):
I agree with you.
And so idiotically hypocriticaland self defeating and so
completely fucking unprofessional.
It's so unprofessional, lawyers have anethical obligation to market our services.
If we give a shit about our profession,then we have an ethical obligation

(41:39):
to market our services and youhave a professional responsibility.
To run your law firm profitably.
It is unethical to run your law firmunprofitably, and it is our, and it is
our ethical responsibility to marketour services, because you know what?
There's millions and millions ofpeople out there, and I can prove this.

(42:01):
I can prove this.
There are millions and millions ofpeople out there who are unserved.
By the legal community becausethey don't know a lawyer.
They don't know anyone who knows a lawyer.
They don't know how to find a lawyer.
And so they're just getting screwed overand screwed over and screwed over and
screwed over in life because no one isputting legal services in front of them.

(42:25):
That's what marketing is.
Marketing is when you educateprospective new clients to help them
understand that they have a problemthey don't even know they've got.
You're not causing the problem byshining a light on the problem.
And then show them how they can begintaking steps to make their life better.
That's what marketing is.
And there's millions of people outthere whose lives could be improved

(42:47):
if only a lawyer cared enough.
To do some marketing, to educate them, toshow them how they can have a better life.
Amen to you, brother.
So.
Don't even get me started the wholedifferent podcast on these lawyers who
run unprofitable law firms and commitrunning an unprofitable law firm is fraud.

(43:11):
It's fraud in the inducement when youhave an unprofitable law firm with
no business plan and you fraudulentlyinduce a person to do business with
your law firm when you have no plan forhow the law firm will stay in business
long enough to finish delivering theservice that you've sold them on.

(43:35):
You can't keep up with this.
And then
to take it to your staff and your familyand everyone else that's affected by it.
If it's going
to the ground, right?
Listen, who gives a shit aboutyour family and your staff?
I'm talking about, I'mbeing facetious, right?
I'm talking about the lawyers whowant to like throw themselves on the
sword and be like, 'Oh, look at me.
I'm ethical and professional and I'mabove marketing and I'm above pecuniary

(43:57):
gain.' And they're totally obliviousto, to, to the effect on their clients.
When they run an unprofitablelaw firm, no client wants to
hire an unprofitable law firm.
If the client were tobe told the truth, if.

(44:17):
This is part of the reason that I don'tget invited back to a lot of podcasts
and why don't I didn't get invitedback to a lot of speaking engagements
because I would stand there in barassociations all over the country and
I would, I would walk lawyers throughthis logical process of thought.
And they would reach the inevitableconclusion that they were

(44:38):
running a fucking ponzi scheme.
And they should actually be disciplinedby the bar because of how they run
their law firm and how they fraudulentlyinduce their prospective new clients
to do business with their law firm.
It's fraud!
Well, you said 54 percent atthe Florida bar was due to
mismanagement of the law firm.
Listen, what's it called whenyou, what's it called when you,

(45:05):
and your audience should know this.
What's it called when you misrepresentor leave out material factors to induce
a person to do business with you?

(45:25):
Malpractice?
No, no, no.
That's not malpractice.
That's called fraud in the inducement!
Fraud inducement.
Fraud in the
I'm not a lawyer.
Inducement!
You induce a person to do business withyou by either Actively misrepresent facts.
Or you don't disclose facts that youknow are material to their decision.

(45:46):
Yeah?
That's fraud in the inducement.
You're gonna go buy a car, Kevin.
The owner of the car knows somethingabout the car which, If you knew
this about the car, they knowyou wouldn't buy the car, right?
So they don't tell you about this problemthat the car's got, and you buy the car.

(46:11):
That's fraud!
That's called fraud in the inducement.
There's a cause of action thatlawyers sue people for all the time
because of this exact fact pattern.
You get it?
Yeah, most law firms
do themselves.
Well, imagine you've got aprospective new client, right?
You've hired Array Marketing, and ArrayMarketing has gotten you all these

(46:33):
leads, and you've listened to advice onhow to convert the leads, with a good
intake system, and the prospective newclient has scheduled the appointment.
And then you've got a good systemin place to do what we call a glide
path to get them ready for theappointment so that when they arrive
to the appointment, they're alreadypreconditioned, pre educated and

(46:54):
predisposed to want to hire your firm.
And you have the sales meeting withthem and they say, 'Great, I want
to hire your firm.' And you put theengagement agreement in front of them
and they pull out the pen to sign it.
And you say, 'Hold on a second, Ineed to disclose some things to you.
So you have all the facts.
Before you make this decision to hire myfirm.' And they say, 'Oh, what's that?'
And you say, 'Well, number one, Ihave no business plan and I don't

(47:17):
really have any idea how this thing'sgoing to stay in business a year from
now, other than hoping for the best.
And I'm willing to work hard.' 'Numbertwo, I have no financial controls and
I don't really know where the moneyis coming from or where the money is
going or how this thing is, whetherthis thing is really profitable or not.'
'Number three.
I have no documented processes, systemsor procedures so that if something were

(47:39):
to happen to me, I don't know how anyof these services would get delivered
to you.' 'So, you know, pretty much wejust have to hope, hope that I don't get
hit by a bus.' Uh, 'Number four, uh, Iam stressed out beyond fucking belief.
Because of the cashflow rollercoasterthat I live on.' And I'm, I'm spending

(48:02):
the weekends scrubbing my own toiletand mowing my own lawn and arguing with
my family over cashflow and financialproblems.' And, 'Uh, I'm walking around.
Uh, broken hearted because I can'tsend my kid to the great college that
my kid got into because my law firmruns so unprofitably and I'm literally

(48:23):
like driven to distraction sometimesbecause of all these problems.'
'And I've got no standards that Ican hold my staff to and I've got no
recruiting system in place and I've...'Who's going to hire that law firm?
No one.
Keep your mouth shut.
Have them sign the engagement agreement.

(48:44):
Knowing that if they knew thetruth, you're going on your
business, they wouldn't hireyou from that's called fraud.
The inducement.
Anyway, this is what gets me notinvited back to podcasts and not
invited back to bar associations to doCLE talks because I speak this truth.
It's true.
And this is when lawyers go aroundsaying, you know, 'Oh, you know,
it's, it's unethical to market.

(49:05):
It's unethical to run yourlaw firm like a business.'
It's unethical not to runyour law firm like a business.
Unless of course you are makingdisclosures to your clients,
which I know you're not.
Because if you made the disclosures toyour clients, no one would hire you!
Spot on, and you're welcome back anytime.
Now you've just losthalf of your audience.
I'm sorry.
They all tuned out andunfollowed your podcast.

(49:30):
That's fine.
You're speaking the
truth, and I appreciate it.
Sorry?
No.
Well, the right audience thatengages with us because we believe
in everything that you believe inwill take a lot from this and they
I listen to your podcast I I knowthat I can say these things to your
audience because your audience isbetter than most Podcast audiences
who don't want to hear the truth.

(49:51):
Yeah, hopefully they're not, youknow, they're tuning into this podcast
They they should have a freakinggood idea So you're totally fine.
Welcome
back anytime.
Thank you.
I appreciate you speaking the truth Ireally do and it's something I see all
the time and you know, I can't Beatup my prospects necessarily sometimes
on it, but it's, I see that a lot.

(50:11):
And actually I was talking to thisone young- it was an older lady
and she wanted to work with us, butjust, she's really in a tight spot
making like 150 maybe, uh, as a
gross revenue of $150,000 a year.
And she's probably taking,maybe she's taking a hundred
thousand a year out of the firm.
Maybe if she's lucky, right?

(50:33):
And she's probably working 60 or70 hours a week is the problem.
And if she would work less.
She'd actually make moreand here's the double irony.
She'd actually help a lot more people.
That was what I got through to her.
So she was telling me, 'Well, Idon't want to do much because, you
know, I really am passionate.'
She was bringing all thispassion and how she was helping.

(50:56):
It was like, civil rights.
In our community, helping people.
And she was so passionate about helping.
She's like, 'I got to go, I got a clientI got to meet with.' 'And I want to
market maybe, but I'm not sure.' And Istarted talking to her and about a week
or so later, she called me back and said,'Hey,', I was like, 'listen, you, right

(51:16):
now, you can help just a couple of peopleand you're telling me it's a big impact.'
'What if you were to help hundredsof those people, thousands of those
people, and you can lead the chargeand grow in and building that.' And
she, you can see that she was like.
'Wow.
That makes so much more sense.' It'slike, you're not helping enough people.
You know, you're getting oneclient a month right now.

(51:39):
It's not enough.
If
you really want to have a positiveimpact on the world, have a big
impact on the world, and the only wayto have a big impact on the world.
is to scale up your law firm.
Oh, how about that ending, huh?
So good.
If you enjoyed this today, staytuned next time for part two.

(52:00):
And if you haven't grabbed yourcopy of this book yet, head on
over to ProfitFirstForLawyers.comand order your copies today.
See you next time.Thank you forjoining us on another episode
of Profit First for Lawyers.
If you're enjoying whatyou're hearing, tell a friend.
And buy your copy of the bookat ProfitFirstForLawyers.
com.

(52:20):
Your future self will thank you for it.
And we will see you next time.