November 7, 2025 • 51 mins
We sit down with Brandon Lewis of the Academy for Professional Painting Contractors to dissect the exact playbook top-tier painting companies use to skyrocket profit, eliminate waste, and build a business that runs from a desk—not from their van.
Brandon exposes the divide between owners who chase complexity and those who master the fundamentals: written goals, time-blocked deep work, and a bias for action over excuses.
In this episode, you’ll get the instrument panel for a profitable business, including:
- The 5 Key Metrics: Gross profit, discretionary earnings, average job size, close rate by source, and a fully-loaded cost per acquisition.
- Production-Rate Estimating: How to stop guessing and start pricing with precision, just like the franchises do.
- The Sales Shift for a Low-Trust World: Ditch the emailed PDFs. We detail a proven process of presenting with proof, live delivery, and value-based follow-up that slashes risk and lifts close rates.
- Your Compounding Engine: How your list of past clients fuels cash flow now and valuation later through reactivation campaigns and practical marketing.
- "Easy to Do, Easy Not to Do" Tactics: From yard signs and 40-door canvassing to crew-led upsells and the "Noah's Ark" B2B referral strategy.
If you’re ready to trade chaos for clarity, this conversation is your blueprint. Measure what matters, block the time, show the scoreboard, and let your list compound.
If this helped, please follow the show, share it with a fellow contractor, and leave a review.
For being a loyal listener, I want to send you a copy of my new book Profitable Painter. Inside, I’ll show you the exact frameworks that have helped painting businesses save big on taxes, increase profits, and scale with confidence
Head over to profitablepaintercpa.com/book and grab your copy today. Don’t wait — this is my gift to you for being part of the Profitable Painter community.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable one
episode at a time.
Today I'm super excited to bespeaking with Brandon Lewis, who
(00:24):
I believe a lot of folkslistening probably already know
who this is.
I've known him for going on adecade now, which is kind of
crazy.
But I'm super excited to havehim on the podcast so you can
bestow some of his wisdom.
Welcome to the podcast, Brandon.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
I'm glad to be here, buddy.
And I'm telling you, just as anaudience, if you're looking for
anybody to do bookkeeping foryou, Daniel's the only person
I've recommended for almost adecade because he does good
work.
And that's not my opinion.
It's uh the feedback I get frommy members, your typical
accountant in your local market.
They can prepare your taxes foryou.
(00:59):
Uh a trained monkey could dothat.
There are thousands of peopleprobably in your market that
could do that.
Uh, but there's only one personthat can give you the metrics
and the setup you need so thatyou get data that compares you
to other people in the industryand gives you something
actionable you can do somethingwith.
And that's a tremendous valuefor someone who often is not
much more and occasionally andprobably often less than
(01:22):
somebody you get in your localmarket.
So there's a little pitch foryou, Daniel.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
I appreciate that, Brandon.
And speaking of metrics, uh Iwas just looking at this, you
know, looking at the folks thatwe have crossover with, you
know, you're the the folks thatwe work with that also work with
you have above average grossprofit, discretionary earnings.
So that is a testament to whatyou're doing over there at
Academy for ProfessionalPainting Contractors.
(01:48):
And uh before we got started,you you um you sent me these 13
questions.
It's kind of like yourdiagnostic tool to understand if
a painting business owner is ontrack with their painting
business.
And I thought it was prettyfascinating.
Um the the first question is onthe list here is uh do you have
the right thinking and theability to recognize the truth
(02:10):
when you hear it?
Can you tell me more about whatthat actually means?
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Yeah, and so to back up just a little bit, um, these
are not like cute littleopinions I pulled out of a book
somewhere.
I'm not new at this.
I to my knowledge, I have I'mthe oldest person in the space
that has been continuouslycoaching painting contractors as
my full-time gig exclusively.
And so when you work with 550painting contractors, when you
(02:35):
have a member average of 3.9million, when you've seen it in
seven different countries andyou've conducted 2,700
diagnostics, they're just becomethese well uh worn ruts in the
road.
And I don't know if any of youhave ever gone to the Oregon
Trail, you can actually see theruts.
Hundreds of years old, you cansee the ruts.
(02:57):
And it cuts not just through thedirt, not just through the mud,
but through the limestone.
And so these things that I'mabout to share with you, if
you'll open up your mind andsuspend your disbelief, I would
swear on a stack of Bibles as aChristian, like these are the
things you need to be focusedon.
So I take out a pen and a pieceof paper, and as we go through
them, if you find that youranswer is I don't know, no, it's
(03:22):
missing, uh, these are thethings that are a five-alarm
fire that you immediately needto address in your painting
business.
So the concept of right thinkingis something I read years ago in
a Napoleon Hill book, and itbasically says the first
beginning of gaining wealth, andI would say wealth is both time
and money, is your ability torecognize the truth.
(03:45):
Because if you can't recognizethe truth, if you can't look at
something and understand what aconcept has been presented to
you, if it makes sense, if it'scommon sense, if it seems to be
correct, then your your judgmentis flawed.
And that's the screen throughwhich you will get all the
information uh that's coming toyou.
And when I present things thatare accurate and that will
(04:07):
actually change a business withowners, I get one of two things,
Daniel.
I get either what I call theRubik's Cube response or I get
the live skunk response.
And the Rubik's Cube response isI will tell an owner who's about
to make a bunch of money, theyprobably would make a bunch
without me, although they'll getthere further, faster and
ultimately end up in a betterspot if they use me.
(04:28):
I will say something and they'llgo, well, tell me more about
that.
Well, could I do that?
Well, that sounds likesomething.
Well, how do you do that?
Like they immediately grasp theconcept and you could see
mentally they start working withit.
And the folks that are forevermired in poverty, when you
present that same idea to them,that same concept, which is
usually very fundamental ratherbasic and simple, they put they
(04:51):
just run from it like a livescum.
Well, I don't think that'd workin my market.
Well, I can't do that.
Well, you see this.
Well, the reason I can't, andlike basically what they're
trying to do is outthink thework.
Uh, you see, a lot of peoplethat want to outthink the work.
And so my uh my not so smartstudents are often putting money
in the bank while my reallysmart ones are giving me 15
reasons why they can't getstarted.
(05:13):
And so as we go through thispresentation, uh everything that
I'm going to give to you as anowner uh works.
And so you've got to askyourself as I present these
concepts, how are you mentallytreating it?
And that is uh a learnedbehavior.
And if you treat these newconcepts as more like a skunk
and less like a Rubik's Cube, ifyou if you're not processing the
how, if you're processing thewhy I shouldn't or can't do
(05:36):
that, that's a warning sign.
unknown (05:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
One of the things that really uh impresses me
about you and your the folksthat work with you, because I've
gone to a lot of differentcoaching events over the years,
and uh your events, which I'vebeen going to for a while now,
every year the the um this thesize of the business grows.
(06:02):
So I think the first year Iattended if you had a million
dollar painting business, thatwas like you're a big dog.
And then now if you are a$50million painting business, now
you're that's a big dog.
Like, you know, the tens ofmillions of dollars we're
talking about now, if you're abig dog, and then could you
split them out by groups?
(06:22):
And uh so it's just reallyimpressive to see that growth,
not with just your membersthemselves, but the the members
themselves actually growing intheir business and apparently
having that right thinking, thatability to take what you're
you're preaching and put it toto use and implement it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
Yeah, that's my number one joy uh for doing
this.
That's why I stick with it.
I look at them like my kids.
I mean, some of them are older,and I'm not saying they're
they're kids in a childishfashion, but I take my fiduciary
responsibility for my clientsvery uh seriously.
And you develop relationshipswith people over time, and the
last thing you want to do is letsomebody down and to watch these
folks go in many cases frombeing mired in poverty,
(07:04):
recovering from bankruptcy,having substance abuse issues,
you name it, uh, to living in amansion on the hill uh and being
some of the most affluent peoplethey know and having a quality
of life they never imagined theycould have.
Like that's you know, it's uhI'm not one to I'm not very
sentimental, as you know,Daniel.
And and so, but to watch themgrow up is just it is just been
(07:27):
the the honor of of my career inthe painting industry.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Yeah, definitely.
So the first thing you said washaving this right thinking.
I that's something that I comeacross pretty frequently is like
you know, someone comes to youfor help and then you say, Well,
have you taken a look at this?
And then you get a bunch ofexcuses as to why that won't
work.
Um, and it's less like, okay,well, why why are you you know
(07:58):
engaging with me if ifeverything that I'm throwing out
there is is not possible.
Uh I know it's possible.
Uh so it's it's just getting themindset right, I think, is
basically the takeaway from whatyou're saying here.
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Yeah, what was it, Thomas?
Uh I think it was Thomas andJefferson that say the man that
is good at making excuses isseldom good at anything else.
And I found that to be thetruth.
Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
Cool.
So the next uh one on the listis can you even remember why you
got into the business in thefirst place?
And is that goal sufficient tomotivate you into hard,
consistent change?
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
So yeah, so you you get lost in the weeds, man.
I mean, and this is not just forthe painters, this is for me,
this is for you.
The day-to-day grind just getsyou to where you become an
automaton and you're swimming inthis sea of other people's
dreams, wants, and desires, andit sweeps you up.
And a lot of folks I get on thephone and it's like you know,
(09:00):
just 2700.
Like you, you know, you get likeyour instincts should get better
after doing 2700 hour-longdiagnostics.
If they don't, there's somethingwrong with your programming or
your hard drive.
And so I can hear it, I can hearit in people's voices.
They're not motivated, uh, theydon't really want to change uh
for whatever reason, uh,although that can change from I
(09:21):
see it change.
Like a child is born, a wife isfound, a spouse is found, uh,
health crisis, nearingretirement.
Uh, they read a book, they heardsomething.
One day they just got finallyfed up.
There's usually some kind ofpivot point that sends people on
the journey often of 10 years,12 years of watching my videos.
I talked to a guy that justjoined yesterday.
(09:43):
I've been watching you for 12years.
I'm like, what took you so long?
Uh, we could have, you couldhave been in a completely
different place if we'd gottenstarted 12 years ago.
But people come into this gamein different times, but you've
just got to ask yourself, um, doyou remember why you got into
this?
Do you remember what your visionwas for where you would
ultimately be?
Do you have any written goals?
And I would submit to everyoneon this call, if you don't have
(10:06):
those, write them down on a Worddocument, a piece of paper, I
don't care, just a cocktailnapkin, pin them up beside your
desk, look at them for a fewmoments, and make them as strong
and as visual as you can.
Uh, because study after studyshows that just the simple fact
of writing down goals, not evenreviewing them, writing them
down changes your business.
(10:26):
And writing them down andreviewing them is even more
powerful.
And if you can write them down,review them, and set aside a
little bit of time every week towork on them in larger blocks,
you can have a completelydifferent uh painting business
and a completely differentincome.
Many people, I kid you not, canbe making two to three times
more money than they are today,month over month, and 30, 60, 90
(10:49):
days from now, because you fixthese fundamental systems and
they're the biggest levers.
And when you when you don'tfocus on the the minors, when
you major on the majors, uh andyou use those fulcrum, the most
um influential uh you know uhgoalpost moving uh levers,
things just change.
(11:10):
Uh and there's no there'sthere's no doubt about it in my
mind because I've seen it happenconsistently time after time.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Yeah.
Yes, as it definitely seems likemindset is a big thing.
Like, and uh I like to readbiographies, and that seems to
be a common thread.
Like the folks that really thinkbig understand why they're doing
something, they have uh theright thinking, they're they're
thinking about how they can makesomething work as opposed to you
know what the reasons why theyshouldn't do it.
(11:38):
But having that mindset seems tobe a prerequisite prerequisite
to success.
And uh you see this again andagain throughout history, like
the folks that have like thebiggest, you know, the biggest
goals, there you know, there'sthose are the folks that are
succeeding.
They have they have a growthmindset.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
Well, it's like if your car is stuck in a ditch.
You need if you can get twothings, you need it.
It's preferable if it's reallystuck that something is is
pushing the back of the car,right?
Uh, and that's usually your ownyou know determination and
effort.
But boy, it sure is helpful whensomething is also pulling that
car.
And that means that you've got agoal, you've got something
(12:20):
you're trying to accomplish,you've got a vision.
And when you've got both thepush and the pull working in
tandem and preferably in thesame direction, it just moves
the car out of the ditchquicker.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
So the next one gets into a little bit less of
mindset, more practical.
Uh it says, as an owner, haveyou mastered time management?
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
So I I like to do a lot of hiking.
And if if you go just maybethree or four minutes from my
home, you can go uh to theheadwaters of the Cumberland
Creek, which late later turnsinto this massive lake in
Chattanooga called theChickamauga Creek, primarily
feeds uh this area and it runsinto the Tennessee River and it
is small.
(13:07):
And if it is not rained, there'shardly anything there.
But you know, you hike about 17miles down the trail, and there
are these big, beautiful blueholes and swimming holes.
Of course, you go further down,you end up in larger bodies of
water.
But time management is theheadwater from which all
progress flows.
And most painters have neverread a book, never taken a time
(13:28):
management course, they don'ttime block calendar uh-like
things in their paintingbusiness because almost
everything we do in a paintingbusiness is exceedingly
repetitive.
We're gonna write estimates,we're gonna send invoices, we're
gonna hire people, we're gonnatrain folks.
Like it's the same 12 or 13functions over and over again.
If those things are scatteredall around your calendar, if
(13:48):
you're using your calendar uh asa sponge for everyone else's
needs instead of a shield toprotect your dreams, you're
gonna end up in a really badspot.
And people often ask, well, doesyour program work?
And I always say, it has neverfailed.
Not once, not one single timesince I've been doing this,
unless people don't do the work.
(14:08):
And the chief killer of that,once they have a little bit of
right thinking and even mediocremotivation, is just their
inability to manage their time.
You know, you give someone anassignment, it's something that
would make a big difference.
Two weeks goes by, there's noprogress, a month goes by,
there's no progress.
Meanwhile, they're doing thingsin their business, but they're
(14:29):
just not important things.
And every painting contractorhas the exact same amount of
time every week.
It's just that the ones that aresuccessful can budget that time
and put it toward things thatmove the needle permanently or
in large, um, large leaps.
Whereas the people that arestuck, they just can't get out
of that doom loop of doing veryrepetitive, inefficient tasks
(14:52):
that frankly don't matter thatmuch.
And I always tell our owners ifthe way you're managing your
time and what you're doingworked, number one, you wouldn't
be on a call with me.
And number two, you would havealready fixed your problems.
And so sometimes uh when yoursituation is not where you want
it to be, the only thing youreally know is that your methods
don't work.
And so when you come into aconversation with an expert or a
(15:14):
mentor, you know, you need tolook at what you're doing and
go, okay, I know I want to holdon to all this and I want to
believe that this is true.
But the fact of the matter isthe destination you're presently
in is the sum of all thatactivity.
And if it's not getting youwhere you need to get, you've
got to reevaluate what you'redoing and how you're doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:34):
Yeah.
And you and I just actually cameback from the PCA residential
conference.
And that is a lot of greatinformation, but I feel like a
lot of times it can beoverwhelming on the amount of
information you get of all thedifferent things that you could
be thinking about in yourpainting business.
And one of the things I likeabout what you do is you help
folks focus, you give themexactly what they need.
(15:56):
Like you diagnose what the issueis and you give them what to
focus on and to fix whateverissue they're facing.
So basically, it sounds like youkind of give them that that
thing, whether it's generatingleads or fixing their production
process, whatever it is.
And then it's basically up tothem on whether they set aside
time to do that thing or not.
(16:18):
And uh the folks that aresuccessful that implement it are
successful with the program.
The ones that don't set asidetime appropriately don't don't
find success.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
No, and it's weird to be a coach.
Uh, it's kind of like being a anathletic coach or a physical
fitness coach.
I can break a sweat for 12 hoursand you won't lose a pound.
Like I can give you the tools, Ican give you the methods, I can
give you the best classes, thebest equipment, the best
instruction.
But if all you do is listen tome yak and you don't get out and
(16:52):
break a sweat in your business,nothing changes.
And that is just the steadyapplication of time.
I mean, it's always amazing tome when you go uh and and see
these remarkable canyons inTennessee or wherever you go.
And it's just a little stream ofwater.
Often it's not very, it's like afoot wide, and there's this huge
cavern and this huge hole.
(17:14):
And it's just the consistentapplication of the water running
across what rock.
Well, you know, you put a coupleof drops on a rock, it doesn't
seem to do much.
But given enough time, it does.
And, you know, I try to getpeople to put more water on it,
uh, to apply more pressurebecause you can definitely do a
lot uh more uh cutting in ashorter period of time if it's
(17:34):
concentrated and pressurized.
And so just like we pressurewash a house, right?
You could throw a glass of wateron there, it's not the same
thing.
And so we just want to make surethat we're putting that
consistent effort in.
And you can't do uh everythingat once.
I see people they just getoverwhelmed uh about everything
that they need to do instead offocusing on the one thing they
can do at a time, which I alwaysfind to be kind of odd because
(17:58):
they don't do that when theypaint houses.
They don't worry about the 15houses that need to be painted
next.
They're always just worriedabout the house they're
painting.
Well, business projects are verymuch the same way.
Give yourself some grace uhabout things that you can't do.
Sit down, cut off thedistraction, put down four-hour
blocks.
Uh, we know from every uh everyform of research just about that
(18:20):
you don't get much done in 20and 30 minute increments.
Like you have to sit down andtackle very difficult projects,
especially if it's new, uh, inorder to see progress.
So those larger blocks of timeconsistently applied are really
what lift up uh every metric inthe painting business, and that
includes the quality of life ofthe owner.
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
So, this next question as might be one of my
favorites of this list.
Do you know even the mostelementary of your financial
numbers?
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
Yes.
So we're at this PCA forum, andI got this is like a broken
record of events.
People come up and they want tohave these casual conversations
with me, which I can hardly doanything for them.
I really need to sit down in adiagnostic to talk to them when
they're not distracted.
But I'll ask them, well, howmuch money did you make last
year?
What's your revenue year today?
(19:11):
What's your average grossprofits?
Uh, how many full-timeequivalents do you really have
if you're runningsubcontractors?
Uh, your close rate, youraverage transaction size, um uh
what's your your marketingexpense per transaction and
what's the percentage of it, andwhich one of your lead sources
are doing well, and which one'sdoing the worst relative to that
(19:33):
metric.
And people are usually like deerin headlights.
And I always know when I asksomebody how much money they
made and they are very confused.
And often it's well, I paymyself this and I took this draw
and I got this$60,000 truck andI got$30,000 in cash that's
under the mattress.
It's like if you don't know thechief metrics, and especially
that one, like to the number,um, you're in trouble.
(19:56):
Like that's like a canary in thecoal mine, and you need to look
at that thing.
And if that bird's dead in thecage, you're in trouble, right?
You need to do somethingdifferent, you need to get out
of there because it's it's justa it's a sign that you need some
help and that you need to takeimmediate action.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
That makes a lot of sense.
Uh, there's a study that wasdone uh a few years ago, folks
that are trying to lose weight,right?
And there were people thatweighed themselves every day,
and then there's people thatweighed themselves every week.
And as you might imagine, thefolks that weighed themselves
(20:34):
every day lost more weight thanthe folks that just weighed
themselves once a week.
So if you're constantlymeasuring and looking at those
numbers, they tend to get betterbecause they're top of mind for
you.
SPEAKER_00 (20:45):
So it's just and I would I would even go one step
further.
The outputs are all interesting,like your weight's interesting,
uh, but but that's just a resultof the inputs.
The thing that you want tomeasure downstream from that are
what type of exercises are youdoing, at what duration are you
doing it, and what type ofcaloric intake do you have and
what's the makeup of that diet?
(21:07):
Now, I'm a big physical fitnessguy, I'm pretty good shape for
somebody as old as I am, and umbut I'm I'm very consistent in
what I do, and so I don't worryabout the outcome.
I know what the outcome is goingto be, like I know what it's
gonna be.
My only job and your only job asa painting contractor is to
track the inputs and put itanother way if you were flying
(21:27):
at 30,000 feet with a pilot andit was just you and the pilot,
and you asked him, How high arewe?
He said, I don't know.
How fast are we going?
I don't know how much fuel wegot, I don't know.
Which direction we head, I don'tknow, but I'm sure we'll get
there.
You would go grab a parachuteand you would it'd be wise as
long as you weren't over a bodyof water to probably get out of
that thing.
And so many painters fly theircompany like that without an
(21:49):
instrument panel of any sort,and they're always arriving in
destinations they don't want inconditions that they hate, and
it's because their instrumentpanel is broken and they're not
looking at any of the keymetrics.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah.
Another next question is can youaccurately estimate your
projects?
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
So this was a mistake I made when I first
started coaching, which is verysimilar to what businesses do,
where you know you think thatyour strengths are the only
thing that matter and you don'treally even know your
weaknesses.
When I started my paintingbusiness, I instinctively knew I
needed to find production ratesbecause I'd never painted.
I instinctively knew thatbecause I bought labor wholesale
and sold at retail, I had totrack the performance of our
(22:30):
painters.
But that is not commonly knownbecause people take the standard
uh you know kind of approach inthe painting industry of
painter, crew leader, owner.
And you think you're doing thesame job and it's the same job
description, and in fact, it isnot.
And so if you're not usingproduction rates, and production
rates are not unit pricing, it'snot 250 a square foot, it's not
(22:51):
the square footage of the floor,it's not you guessing how long
you think it's going to be, it'snot you using square footage or
linear footage or unit pricingand then backing into it by
dividing it by your hourly rate.
It's none of those things.
The reason that every majorpainting franchise in existence
can take someone with zeroexperience and using production
rates can make them moreaccurate than you are in two
(23:12):
weeks versus 20 years ofguessing is because it the
method works, right?
And one concept I'd throw out toall the painters out there is we
all know that a gallon of paintgoes about 300 square feet on
drywall, brushing and rolling.
If I said it went 600, you wouldsay I was a fool.
If you said if I said it went100, you'd say I was a fool.
(23:32):
Because it's not true.
But for some reason, we thinkthat labor is elastic and it'll
go whatever we say it's going togo.
And that's just not the truth.
An hour of a painter's time whenapplying paint will go so far,
whether it's a square footage,linear footage, or a specific
object like a door or a windowor something of that effect.
And so you've got to be reallygood at predicting how how far
(23:56):
the labor goes, and you've gotto be able to um, you know, come
up with a scoreboard to showyour painters.
SPEAKER_01 (24:03):
Yeah.
And to your point aboutfranchises teaching their
franchisees the basics ofproduction rate estimating, I
did uh college works when I wasin college, so I was 18 years
old, didn't know anything aboutbusiness or much of anything at
all, really.
And like you just said, theyliterally just sat us in a class
(24:25):
for uh a few days to review howto do production rate
estimating.
And then I did production rateestimating for several months
and booked nearly$100,000 toproduce for the summer.
So it it is it's just if youdon't know what it is, you gotta
look it up.
The PCA has guides on it.
(24:45):
There's software that uses it.
It's just one of those thingslike you gotta get on board with
the production rate estimatingand stop using uh it always
makes me laugh when folks areusing um like the square footage
of of a of a house, like thethey're measuring the floor by
you know, and to determine howmuch to paint the walls is just
kind of backwards.
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
But uh be like if a flooring contractor came in and
measured the roof or thedriveway.
I mean, it just makes no sense.
But what it is, it's iscontractors have tricked
painters to do this so that theydon't know what they're making
and they don't they don't knowwhat it should cost.
And and maybe you heard somebodyin 1997 in a paint store say
what they charged and this ishow they do it, and so you just
(25:26):
adopt it randomly.
And you know, that's that'scrazy.
That'd be like if you wereprogramming programming a
computer and somebody handed yousome code and you just stuck it
in your computer and thought,well, this is going to make it
run real well without verifyingit or really understanding the
conceptual underpinning if it'seven uh even has a chance of
being accurate.
Uh, but again, that is it, ityou're not dumb if you've done
(25:47):
that.
It is common, it's ubiquitous inthe painting industry.
No, don't beat yourself up onit, but do immediately take
steps to correct it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Yeah.
So the next question is Are yourpainters shown the scoreboard?
And is there ample inducement toreach job profitability and
customer satisfaction customersatisfaction goals?
SPEAKER_00 (26:08):
So if I ask most of your crew leaders out there,
even painters, if you're runninga business, what they did for
you, most of them would say theypaint.
Well, if you ask my painters,they would not say that's what
they do.
You know, we had four rules atmy company.
I will do everything uh withinmy power to make sure that
projects come in on labor andmaterial budgets.
(26:28):
I will give the customer asatisfaction experience uh so
that I get high scores uh andand and and remarks at the end
of the project through thecustomer satisfaction surveys.
I'll follow the companyprocesses and procedures, which
were not onerous at my company.
I found painters, you need togive them the core goals and
then hire the right people andlet them go do the work.
(26:49):
Don't micromanage them, givethem an opportunity to lead on
their own projects.
And finally, I will not lie,cheat, or steal.
That covers everything else.
You give them an employeehandbook, they're not going to
read it.
Uh, but if you say you can'tlie, cheat or steal, it covers
just about everything else.
And so when they go out to do ajob, they need to know how many
labor hours are in the budget,what the material budgets are.
(27:11):
And then there needs to beeither performance pay or a
saved labor bonus uh so that themore productive they are, the
more money they make.
And it's not just enough to givethem money.
Uh, a lot of people aren'tmotivated by money.
So they need inducements incompany meetings where they're
rewarded, where they'rerecognized, where there are
contests, um, and and thosesorts of things.
The sense of community paintersoften overlook.
(27:31):
I mean, they overlook thepricing and and the rewards and
the scoreboard.
But further still, as youadvance, bringing that
confluence of influences aroundthem so that you're making sure
that no matter what motivatesthem, that you're giving them a
little bit of everything becausenot everybody responds to the
same things for motivating themto perform.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
So, next question Do you have control mechanisms at
the crew leader and office levelfor predictable production?
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
So there are really two major controls.
There are the systems and thepaperwork, whether it's digital
or otherwise, that you give yourcrew leaders along with their
budget.
Uh, in ours, it's called theultimate crew leader packet.
They have a, you know, meet thecrew leader sheet.
They have a labor hour trackingand material tracking sheet.
A lot of our guys digitize this,but honestly, you could run it
(28:28):
with paper uh because projectsare temporary, right?
They they come and they go.
There are some things that thatare fine for managing things
that are uh temporary, right?
It's gonna last 10 days, it'sgonna last 12 days.
We can file this thing away.
It's not like living eternallyand ongoing.
Some things you need softwareand databases for, some things
you could do with or without it.
It makes not a big difference.
(28:49):
Um, and it has, you know, aprocess for a dual column
checklist to it gets rid of like95, 97% of callbacks, payment
collection envelope, uh,customer satisfaction survey.
When you do it on paper, inperson, you get them back about
70 or 80% of the time.
If you try to survey them afterthe fact, you're lucky to get
15%.
(29:10):
The feedback's more importantthan the method by which the
feedback comes because you wantthe feedback.
It's also good to use in thesales process, change orders,
problem solving sheets,equipment checklists.
Look, what do they need?
Not the tools, not the brushesand the rollers and the
sprayers.
So they can take thisinformation, they can take the
material, leave, go do aproject, and come back with a
(29:32):
check or a credit card havingbeen swiped and a happy
customer.
The other control mechanism hasto be what we call the project
management and scheduling coursein our program.
And that's what happens everytime there is a project from
beginning to end.
It's the same repetitive stuffover and over and over again.
And if you don't have somecontrol mechanism, and if you
don't have one that allows youto schedule effectively and to
(29:55):
stay on top of things, whichhonestly you can do with a
simple spreadsheet for up toabout 20 or 30.
30 painters.
Once you get past that, youprobably need to step it up.
But very primitive, simplecontrols with talented people
can allow you to run a prettydarn big organization with what
I would call semi-formalorganizational structure.
(30:17):
You know, as you get toenterprise level, some of this
stuff has to be, you know,scaled up.
But for I don't know, 98% ofpainters out there, this would
be perfectly sufficient, but youneed something.
And finally, I would say youcan't run production from your
van.
You have to learn to runproduction from a desk.
And if if you could never leaveyour desk for six months, uh,
(30:38):
would you still be able to runyour painting business?
Would your family still be fed?
Would the customers still behappy?
Would the painters still getpaid?
And if the answer is no, you'vegot serious work to do.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
I like this next question because something I see
with the folks that you workwith, when I see their numbers,
oftentimes their customeracquisition costs are pretty
low.
And I think this is probably howthat they're achieving this.
And then the the question is howmany past clients and
unconverted leads do you have?
(31:10):
And if you painted for me 18months ago, what have I heard
from you since?
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Yeah, 18 months, 18 years.
Um, you know, I lived in-housefor 15 years.
I didn't move.
And if if if your customersmove, you should still keep up
with them.
But uh, you know, my backgroundis I worked on U.S.
Senate, U.S.
House, state, and local races.
I wrote a book called How toRaise Money for Political
Office.
I have ran 14 campaigns orlegislative efforts, they've all
been successful.
(31:37):
Uh, I publish our state'slargest conservative news
alternative.
And so in those that industry,the list is the business.
It's not something that you cando without and still eke out a
living.
It is the core of the business.
And most of your best ideas thatcome into an industry are not
from within the industry,they're from other industries
because there tends to be anecho chamber uh of slightly
(32:00):
better ideas that are exactlythe same in the painting
industry.
And so I brought that in.
And what we discovered is youknow, the second transaction
size is 60% larger than thefirst.
They close at about 60 to 70percent versus 25 to 32 percent
uh for net new leads.
Uh you your sales force it makesmore money seeing fewer people.
(32:21):
And then finally, theacquisition cost is about five
to 10%.
Well, the issue is you know,marketing feeds sales, sales
feeds operations, and operationsfeeds your income.
And so if you start out, justlike in physical fitness, with a
really bad diet, there's only somuch anything else you do can
produce.
But if you start out with a gooddiet, um everything that flows
(32:45):
downstream from that's gonna begood.
And finally, from an equitystandpoint, when you go to sell
your painting business, when youcan tell people, hey, look, I
got this list of 1,500 people,it produces$2.5 million worth of
revenue and repeat and referralsevery year.
All you've got to do is runthese two reactivation campaigns
and do mailed and emailednewsletter marketing, both of
which we furnish as turnkey donefor you services at the Painters
(33:08):
Academy.
When somebody goes to buy that,there's this big chunk of
revenue that's basicallyguaranteed, and then maybe 12 or
13% comes from operationalmarketing, and there's a very
small sliver that comes fromrisky net new marketing.
That's what gets that multiplierof direct to owner benefit up
from two times what you made thelast year to as high as four,
(33:29):
I've seen.
And I've helped about 30businesses um sell their
businesses, right?
I don't sell them for them, butI build them up, build the
teams, build the systems, helpthem find a broker, go through
the um process of negotiationand prospective buyers, and then
finally even going all the waythrough the training process um
(33:52):
for the new owners.
And about half the time I end upcoaching the new owners as well.
And so having seen that processplay out, both in my own
business and you know, a coupledozen others, it really makes me
understand the power of thatlist, both for your personal
finances, for the stability ofyour business, and at the end of
the day, your equity.
unknown (34:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
That's huge.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
Next question is Is your sales process persuasive,
or are you emailing a PDF andpetting the dog?
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
Yes, that is what most people do.
Uh email is the worst way toconceivably deliver an estimate.
Uh, presenting on site is thebest.
Uh, doing it digitally is secondbest, printing an estimate is
the best.
Uh, you should do both intandem, just in sales and
marketing, it's almost alwaysnot either or, it's all of the
above.
Um, and so we have very powerfulpre-positioning, presenting,
(34:45):
post-positioning, and follow-uptools.
What you have to realize isyou're selling something that is
remarkably expensive and you'reselling it in an industry that's
very high risk.
Because your lived experience,if you're a homeowner that
always uses home services anddoesn't do things yourself, is
that if 10 contractors come outand if you sign a contract with
10 contractors, about 30% ofthem are going to deliver what
(35:07):
they've said they will, andabout 70% of them will
disappoint.
And so when you show up and justgive people verbal promises of
what you're gonna do, it doesn'twork.
The other thing I wouldrecommend all of our messaging
that's in our sales process isbased upon surveys of a couple
of different surveys of 1200 andI think 900 and something former
painting clients, uh, peoplethat had bought painting
(35:30):
services, and people ask in thatsurvey, what do you think's
important?
So often as contractors, we wantto tell people what we think is
important.
Well, it what you think'simportant doesn't matter because
you don't say yes, you don'tsign the check, you don't swap
the credit card.
And finally, uh, you just can'tuh tell them you're a good
person.
You've got to bury them inthird-party proof in a variety
(35:51):
of ways, in a variety of mediumsbefore, during, and after the
sale, to convince them that it'snot just your verbal promises.
And I would close by saying thisabout your sales process.
It's not about building value,it's about reducing risk.
If we were in a trusted segmentand if we were perhaps selling
something that was low priced,build value by all means.
(36:12):
But when you're in a in anindustry that's not trusted,
generally speaking, and whenyou're selling something that is
very expensive, you've got towipe away every conceivable
doubt that the experiencethey'll have with you will be
similar to the above-averageexperience, or not the above
average, but the bad typicalexperience that they've had with
(36:33):
other contractors in the past.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
And one of the things that I think is lost on
folks sometimes is when youinvest in your sales process,
that gives you a really goodreturn because it lowers your
marketing.
You can spend the same amount ofmarketing dollars and get more
revenue because if you have amore persuasive sales process,
you'd be closing at a higherpercentage.
(37:00):
So that investment into yoursales process should have a good
return on investment for foryears to come.
So it's it's just like ano-brainer.
SPEAKER_00 (37:10):
Yeah, it's like marketing is is the water and
sales is the pipe that it has toflow through to operations.
And if that pipe is constricted,uh if the water pressure on the
other side of it is low, um,then not a lot is gonna be
making its way to operations.
And so all along the processfrom marketing to sales to
(37:30):
operations, and then through thereactivation and retention
processes, coming back in thisfeedback loop to marketing
again, uh all those majorcomponents, if you're gonna make
high income with the leastamount of effort, uh, each one
of those has to be really openso the flow can go through.
If any of those are constricted,uh you'll see it in your income.
SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
Next question.
Are you taking advantage of allyour operational marketing
opportunities?
SPEAKER_00 (38:00):
Yeah, Jim Jim Rohn used to say easy to do, easy not
to do.
And even our clients that arefive, six, seven million
dollars, eight million, ten,twenty million dollars that
track their metrics ruthlesslyfind that somewhere around 12 to
15% of their leads every yearcome from yard signs, door
(38:20):
hangers, and asking for reviews.
And when I do diagnostics forpeople, it amazes me, even
though it's so rudimentary, theyare either not doing it or
somehow they've managed to makemistakes in doing those key
processes.
And things like putting a yardsign out and taking it back up.
Like, I mean, if you're doingit, if you're doing a two-person
(38:41):
or a two-day job rather, and youleave a sign in the yard, I
mean, most of the time it'll bethere for 30 days.
The owner won't take it up.
But if you take it up, itdoesn't make any sense.
And so you got to leave thosethings out there.
You need to be doing 40 doors.
We have a very specific doorhanger that's different than the
rest of the door hangers outthere.
I'm a big direct responseperson.
I've done uh physical marketingfor, I don't know, 20 some odd
(39:04):
years now.
So I'm I'm a little bit morepersnickety about it than most
people because I think thedifferences matter because I've
seen it in the results.
But those little simple things,um, and even other operational
sales like upselling andoffering financing that can be
done by crew leaders, that canbe done by people if you give
them a little incentive and thenmonitor it in the meetings and
(39:24):
then reward the people thatperform and coach the people
that don't.
Uh, we call that an operationaltailwind.
And essentially, if you do itproperly for every job you do,
you can get half an estimate,and they tend to close about
like referrals at 50% if you'vegot a good sales process.
So when you know that you canget a quarter of a project for
every project you do, that makesthe the strain on your net new
(39:47):
marketing so much less uh thanif you don't.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Yeah.
I think the first time I wasexposed to you, I it was from a
direct mail piece.
It was like a huge manilaenvelope with a CD, like a C,
you know, old CD case, uh notold, but like back in the day.
This is like 10 years ago.
(40:10):
And uh it had like a bunch of ofyour your uh your materials in
there and everything.
I was like, what coming thiscoming in the mail?
I was like, what is this?
Who's sending me all thisinformation?
And so I threw the CD in, and itwas you talking about running a
painting business andeverything.
I was like, oh wow, this is uhit's pretty elaborate.
SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
Um but yeah, what I would say, I I know we're close
on time, but I've right now, ifyou call people, email them,
text them, uh, or do socialmedia, it all comes through this
device, the phone.
Uh mail and physical material isthe only thing that exists
outside of that universe now.
And email delivery is anabsolute crapper right now.
(40:49):
Text delivery is in the crapperand going in the crapper faster.
Uh voice is in the crapper fordelivery.
And so when you've only got Xnumber of ways to reach people,
you can't be ridiculouslyprejudicial about what you use.
You need to use it all in tandembecause study after study shows
(41:09):
that if you just mail, if youjust email, if you just text, if
you just call, you get X foreach one of those individual
things.
But when you use them in tandemin a compressed fashion, you get
1.2, 1.5, 2x.
And so that is something Ilearned in campaigning is that
there needs to be a crescendoleading up to the offer of the
(41:30):
event uh because that's reallywhat maximizes the turnout and
it's what maximizes the leads uhrelative to marketing and
painting.
SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
Next question.
Have you forged and maintainedB2B referral relationships in a
programming fashion?
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
So it was huge for me.
I started a thing called theChattanooga Trades Association,
and it was remarkably effective.
I've still got friends that Isee all the time, uh dear
friends from that, even though Idon't run a business anymore.
So much of B2B is just making afriend.
And if you're organized and itif you get out in front of folks
and you make friends withroofers, plumbers, electricians,
(42:10):
uh HVAC people, landscapers, etcetera, you should have the
Noah's Ark strategy, in myopinion.
That's you should have two goodrelationships with every home
service category in your area,and they should consistently
hear from you, both with yournewsletter, preferably in a
meeting if you can do it.
And then finally, throughpersonal communication, some
face-to-face, uh, some throughtext, email, or a call.
(42:32):
And you build thoserelationships over time and they
can be remarkably productive.
Instead of door knocking ahouse, how about door knock
somebody that can send you$70,000,$80,000,$200,000 a year?
If you're going to spend yourtime marketing, uh why market to
the end user when you can marketto someone who's in the homes of
thousands of end users a year?
It's a very common strategy.
(42:53):
It's how SurfPro built theirentire business.
It's the basis of pharmaceuticalsales, it's the basis of uh of
manufacture sales reps, and it'sa great training ground for the
next thing that I ask in there.
Um, and it's just tremendous.
And it is far more stable thanonline marketing.
You should be doing that stuff,but when it comes to marketing,
(43:16):
you should always invest in thehighest ROI activities that
produce the largest, best jobsfirst and work your way
backwards.
But what most painters do isthey spend all their money in
the lowest ROI stuff and theynever get to the big ticket
items, and then they wonder whytheir company is founding after
seven, three, seventeen years.
And it's because we've beenmajoring on the miners.
(43:37):
Um, you can't solve every uhproblem in your painting
business by swapping a creditcard.
Sometimes it takes shoe leatherand effort, and you you need to
lean into that or have yourpeople do it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:50):
Next question is are you surrounded by commercial
repaints, but it's not a majorpart of your portfolio?
SPEAKER_00 (43:59):
So I put this last because so many of the
fundamentals really need to bein place before you approach
this market.
People will come to me all thetime and say, Brandon, I, you
know, I don't like my business.
I really just need to get intocommercial.
And I start looking at thefundamentals and I'm like, boy,
this would just make you gobroke faster.
No, this is not what you need todo.
Uh, but once you have thesefundamentals in place, or most
of them, uh, commercial repaintsare remarkably lucrative.
(44:21):
They're larger, they repeat,there's less competition.
Once you get an account, it'svery difficult to have it stolen
from you because painters areway too lazy to go after
commercial.
And the other thing is how itinsulates you.
The residential market uh hasups and downs.
The commercial market has upsand downs, but rarely do they
have ups and downs completelythe same together.
(44:43):
And just it's you shoulddiversify your marketing.
You should diversify yourmarkets.
Uh, who are you approaching?
And there are always verticalsin commercial that will have
money when residential doesn't.
So when you have a slowdown overhere, you have you know this
going on over there.
And finally, commercial is anexcellent prospect for keeping
(45:04):
your pipeline full during thewinter with interiors for a
number of reasons.
Number one is they're spendingthe budget from the year prior.
That the next year's budget getsreleased around January most of
the time.
So right in the dead of winter,they're spending their final
money from last year and theirallocated money for next year.
And so many uh sectors in thecommercial uh industry end up
(45:27):
having shutdown work, or theirpeople aren't there, or their
schools and the dormitories areempty, whatever it happens to
be.
And so there's a lot of interiorwork that goes on in commercial,
and it's great for throughoutthe year, but boy, it can be a
uh a real game changer forpreserving cash flow and keeping
your guys working during a timewhen uh you know organic demand
(45:48):
is at its nadir uh for paintingcontractors.
Makes a lot of sense.
Well, Brandon.
Yeah, it's amazing.
It really does.
It does.
I almost thought I came up withit myself.
SPEAKER_01 (46:00):
Well, you've been super generous with your time.
I know we got to hop off here ina couple minutes.
Do you have any last thoughts orasks of the audience that uh
that you could do here?
SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
I'll give you two.
Uh number one is uh if you'velistened to these questions and
you don't have a lot of yeses,or if you're a little murky on
some of this stuff, the finalquestion you got to ask is,
okay, if if the answer is no toa lot of this, now that I know
what to do, do I know how to doit?
(46:31):
And if I try to do it, will I doit right to begin with?
And you know, how many years doI have on this planet anyway?
I I would encourage you to findsomeone or some program to go
with.
It's self-serving to say that.
But uh I have done of the 2,700diagnostics I've done, I've
probably done about 400 for asecond time.
(46:53):
Meaning I pull up their olddiagnostic, we keep it in a file
box uh electronically, and I'lllook at it and I always go
through the motions of doing thediagnostic the second time.
And nine times out of ten,nothing has changed.
Three months, three years, 10years have gone by.
And most people just can'tmanufacture things from scratch.
Further, there's so muchfriction.
(47:15):
Uh, even when I provide peoplewith the tools and the methods
and the coaching for them toimplement, when you try to
create that stuff, boy, it'sjust it's like putting a weight
around your waist while you'retrying to walk uphill.
Like it's just far moredifficult uh to have you know
all that uncertainty around you.
So I would look for that stuff.
(47:36):
Uh but I will say this likeeverybody thinks that this whole
process is very complicated as apainter.
And it's because when you'vepainted one house, you have a
perspective.
If you've painted 550 houses,hopefully you have a different
perspective, a different method,and a different approach.
And I it I've done this sooften, it's crystal clear to me
what needs to be done.
(47:56):
Einstein said, if you can'texplain something simply, you
don't understand it.
Well, this is something Iunderstand, like the back of my
wrinkly, freckled, hairy hand.
Uh, I understand it, I know howto do it.
And so if I can ever help you,just email me, Brandon at
PaintersAcademy.com.
You can go to our website forthose of you that are, you know,
you're nervous of some rednecktalking head.
(48:17):
You go to paintersacademy.com,get some information.
Or if you want to binge watch 12years of videos of me teaching
this kind of stuff and pickingup some of it on your own, I do
occasionally have somebodyimplement stuff at a distance,
and it's the biggest complimentanybody can pay for me is to
send me an email and say, hey, Idid this stuff and my business
is better, it tickles me pink.
And so uh you can go to theYouTube channel for Painters
(48:39):
Academy.
I'm always happy to talk tosomebody.
You know, if you decide to join,that's great.
If you don't, it you know, it'snot going to take a T-bone steak
off of the Lewis' uh plate.
And so if I can help you, I'dlove to.
Uh, and I just like havingconversations with painters
because it's a it's a fun gigwhen you get to see them
succeed.
SPEAKER_01 (48:59):
Thank you so much, Brandon.
Really appreciate you coming onand sharing some of your wisdom.
And I definitely encourage folksto check out Painter's Academy.
And I know you have the PaintProfit Summit coming up in
January, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (49:11):
It's our 10th anniversary.
Um, it's in Chattanooga,Tennessee, the last weekend in
January.
Just type in Painting ProfitSummit, you'll see all the
details online.
Um, it not only have we beendoing it for 10 years, but
because we did it in 2020 and noone else did, we are now
officially the longest runningpainting industry event in
(49:31):
America.
And so if you want to come tothat puppy, uh feel free.
Sorry, PCA, you took a year off.
You it's a hundred and some oddyears in the crapper.
And so, but we're we're now thelongest continually running
painting event in America.
And uh there's a reason.
Our guys are are very open, uh,they're very nice, it's a it's a
very respectful, helpfulenvironment, and it's all
(49:51):
contractor driven.
Uh, you only almost onlyexclusively hear from
contractors from our eventbecause my thought is people
hear from me all year long, theyneed to hear from each other uh
when they're together, and theyhave a great time doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (50:05):
Yeah, I can't wait to do to do it again this year.
So I'm looking forward tolooking forward to it.
SPEAKER_00 (50:10):
And uh please, please tell your beautiful wife
and give your your kids a hugfrom me.
Yeah, it's always great to seethe Honan family roll into
Chattanooga.
Yes, sir.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (50:20):
Uh thank you for your time, Brandon, and we'll
let you go.
And for the audience, we willsee you next week.
Take care, buddy.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable one
episode at a time.
Today I'm super excited to bespeaking with Brandon Lewis, who
(00:24):
I believe a lot of folkslistening probably already know
who this is.
I've known him for going on adecade now, which is kind of
crazy.
But I'm super excited to havehim on the podcast so you can
bestow some of his wisdom.
Welcome to the podcast, Brandon.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
I'm glad to be here, buddy.
And I'm telling you, just as anaudience, if you're looking for
anybody to do bookkeeping foryou, Daniel's the only person
I've recommended for almost adecade because he does good
work.
And that's not my opinion.
It's uh the feedback I get frommy members, your typical
accountant in your local market.
They can prepare your taxes foryou.
(00:59):
Uh a trained monkey could dothat.
There are thousands of peopleprobably in your market that
could do that.
Uh, but there's only one personthat can give you the metrics
and the setup you need so thatyou get data that compares you
to other people in the industryand gives you something
actionable you can do somethingwith.
And that's a tremendous valuefor someone who often is not
much more and occasionally andprobably often less than
(01:22):
somebody you get in your localmarket.
So there's a little pitch foryou, Daniel.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
I appreciate that, Brandon.
And speaking of metrics, uh Iwas just looking at this, you
know, looking at the folks thatwe have crossover with, you
know, you're the the folks thatwe work with that also work with
you have above average grossprofit, discretionary earnings.
So that is a testament to whatyou're doing over there at
Academy for ProfessionalPainting Contractors.
(01:48):
And uh before we got started,you you um you sent me these 13
questions.
It's kind of like yourdiagnostic tool to understand if
a painting business owner is ontrack with their painting
business.
And I thought it was prettyfascinating.
Um the the first question is onthe list here is uh do you have
the right thinking and theability to recognize the truth
(02:10):
when you hear it?
Can you tell me more about whatthat actually means?
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Yeah, and so to back up just a little bit, um, these
are not like cute littleopinions I pulled out of a book
somewhere.
I'm not new at this.
I to my knowledge, I have I'mthe oldest person in the space
that has been continuouslycoaching painting contractors as
my full-time gig exclusively.
And so when you work with 550painting contractors, when you
(02:35):
have a member average of 3.9million, when you've seen it in
seven different countries andyou've conducted 2,700
diagnostics, they're just becomethese well uh worn ruts in the
road.
And I don't know if any of youhave ever gone to the Oregon
Trail, you can actually see theruts.
Hundreds of years old, you cansee the ruts.
(02:57):
And it cuts not just through thedirt, not just through the mud,
but through the limestone.
And so these things that I'mabout to share with you, if
you'll open up your mind andsuspend your disbelief, I would
swear on a stack of Bibles as aChristian, like these are the
things you need to be focusedon.
So I take out a pen and a pieceof paper, and as we go through
them, if you find that youranswer is I don't know, no, it's
(03:22):
missing, uh, these are thethings that are a five-alarm
fire that you immediately needto address in your painting
business.
So the concept of right thinkingis something I read years ago in
a Napoleon Hill book, and itbasically says the first
beginning of gaining wealth, andI would say wealth is both time
and money, is your ability torecognize the truth.
(03:45):
Because if you can't recognizethe truth, if you can't look at
something and understand what aconcept has been presented to
you, if it makes sense, if it'scommon sense, if it seems to be
correct, then your your judgmentis flawed.
And that's the screen throughwhich you will get all the
information uh that's coming toyou.
And when I present things thatare accurate and that will
(04:07):
actually change a business withowners, I get one of two things,
Daniel.
I get either what I call theRubik's Cube response or I get
the live skunk response.
And the Rubik's Cube response isI will tell an owner who's about
to make a bunch of money, theyprobably would make a bunch
without me, although they'll getthere further, faster and
ultimately end up in a betterspot if they use me.
(04:28):
I will say something and they'llgo, well, tell me more about
that.
Well, could I do that?
Well, that sounds likesomething.
Well, how do you do that?
Like they immediately grasp theconcept and you could see
mentally they start working withit.
And the folks that are forevermired in poverty, when you
present that same idea to them,that same concept, which is
usually very fundamental ratherbasic and simple, they put they
(04:51):
just run from it like a livescum.
Well, I don't think that'd workin my market.
Well, I can't do that.
Well, you see this.
Well, the reason I can't, andlike basically what they're
trying to do is outthink thework.
Uh, you see, a lot of peoplethat want to outthink the work.
And so my uh my not so smartstudents are often putting money
in the bank while my reallysmart ones are giving me 15
reasons why they can't getstarted.
(05:13):
And so as we go through thispresentation, uh everything that
I'm going to give to you as anowner uh works.
And so you've got to askyourself as I present these
concepts, how are you mentallytreating it?
And that is uh a learnedbehavior.
And if you treat these newconcepts as more like a skunk
and less like a Rubik's Cube, ifyou if you're not processing the
how, if you're processing thewhy I shouldn't or can't do
(05:36):
that, that's a warning sign.
unknown (05:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
One of the things that really uh impresses me
about you and your the folksthat work with you, because I've
gone to a lot of differentcoaching events over the years,
and uh your events, which I'vebeen going to for a while now,
every year the the um this thesize of the business grows.
(06:02):
So I think the first year Iattended if you had a million
dollar painting business, thatwas like you're a big dog.
And then now if you are a$50million painting business, now
you're that's a big dog.
Like, you know, the tens ofmillions of dollars we're
talking about now, if you're abig dog, and then could you
split them out by groups?
(06:22):
And uh so it's just reallyimpressive to see that growth,
not with just your membersthemselves, but the the members
themselves actually growing intheir business and apparently
having that right thinking, thatability to take what you're
you're preaching and put it toto use and implement it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
Yeah, that's my number one joy uh for doing
this.
That's why I stick with it.
I look at them like my kids.
I mean, some of them are older,and I'm not saying they're
they're kids in a childishfashion, but I take my fiduciary
responsibility for my clientsvery uh seriously.
And you develop relationshipswith people over time, and the
last thing you want to do is letsomebody down and to watch these
folks go in many cases frombeing mired in poverty,
(07:04):
recovering from bankruptcy,having substance abuse issues,
you name it, uh, to living in amansion on the hill uh and being
some of the most affluent peoplethey know and having a quality
of life they never imagined theycould have.
Like that's you know, it's uhI'm not one to I'm not very
sentimental, as you know,Daniel.
And and so, but to watch themgrow up is just it is just been
(07:27):
the the honor of of my career inthe painting industry.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Yeah, definitely.
So the first thing you said washaving this right thinking.
I that's something that I comeacross pretty frequently is like
you know, someone comes to youfor help and then you say, Well,
have you taken a look at this?
And then you get a bunch ofexcuses as to why that won't
work.
Um, and it's less like, okay,well, why why are you you know
(07:58):
engaging with me if ifeverything that I'm throwing out
there is is not possible.
Uh I know it's possible.
Uh so it's it's just getting themindset right, I think, is
basically the takeaway from whatyou're saying here.
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Yeah, what was it, Thomas?
Uh I think it was Thomas andJefferson that say the man that
is good at making excuses isseldom good at anything else.
And I found that to be thetruth.
Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
Cool.
So the next uh one on the listis can you even remember why you
got into the business in thefirst place?
And is that goal sufficient tomotivate you into hard,
consistent change?
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
So yeah, so you you get lost in the weeds, man.
I mean, and this is not just forthe painters, this is for me,
this is for you.
The day-to-day grind just getsyou to where you become an
automaton and you're swimming inthis sea of other people's
dreams, wants, and desires, andit sweeps you up.
And a lot of folks I get on thephone and it's like you know,
(09:00):
just 2700.
Like you, you know, you get likeyour instincts should get better
after doing 2700 hour-longdiagnostics.
If they don't, there's somethingwrong with your programming or
your hard drive.
And so I can hear it, I can hearit in people's voices.
They're not motivated, uh, theydon't really want to change uh
for whatever reason, uh,although that can change from I
(09:21):
see it change.
Like a child is born, a wife isfound, a spouse is found, uh,
health crisis, nearingretirement.
Uh, they read a book, they heardsomething.
One day they just got finallyfed up.
There's usually some kind ofpivot point that sends people on
the journey often of 10 years,12 years of watching my videos.
I talked to a guy that justjoined yesterday.
(09:43):
I've been watching you for 12years.
I'm like, what took you so long?
Uh, we could have, you couldhave been in a completely
different place if we'd gottenstarted 12 years ago.
But people come into this gamein different times, but you've
just got to ask yourself, um, doyou remember why you got into
this?
Do you remember what your visionwas for where you would
ultimately be?
Do you have any written goals?
And I would submit to everyoneon this call, if you don't have
(10:06):
those, write them down on a Worddocument, a piece of paper, I
don't care, just a cocktailnapkin, pin them up beside your
desk, look at them for a fewmoments, and make them as strong
and as visual as you can.
Uh, because study after studyshows that just the simple fact
of writing down goals, not evenreviewing them, writing them
down changes your business.
(10:26):
And writing them down andreviewing them is even more
powerful.
And if you can write them down,review them, and set aside a
little bit of time every week towork on them in larger blocks,
you can have a completelydifferent uh painting business
and a completely differentincome.
Many people, I kid you not, canbe making two to three times
more money than they are today,month over month, and 30, 60, 90
(10:49):
days from now, because you fixthese fundamental systems and
they're the biggest levers.
And when you when you don'tfocus on the the minors, when
you major on the majors, uh andyou use those fulcrum, the most
um influential uh you know uhgoalpost moving uh levers,
things just change.
(11:10):
Uh and there's no there'sthere's no doubt about it in my
mind because I've seen it happenconsistently time after time.
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
Yeah.
Yes, as it definitely seems likemindset is a big thing.
Like, and uh I like to readbiographies, and that seems to
be a common thread.
Like the folks that really thinkbig understand why they're doing
something, they have uh theright thinking, they're they're
thinking about how they can makesomething work as opposed to you
know what the reasons why theyshouldn't do it.
(11:38):
But having that mindset seems tobe a prerequisite prerequisite
to success.
And uh you see this again andagain throughout history, like
the folks that have like thebiggest, you know, the biggest
goals, there you know, there'sthose are the folks that are
succeeding.
They have they have a growthmindset.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
Well, it's like if your car is stuck in a ditch.
You need if you can get twothings, you need it.
It's preferable if it's reallystuck that something is is
pushing the back of the car,right?
Uh, and that's usually your ownyou know determination and
effort.
But boy, it sure is helpful whensomething is also pulling that
car.
And that means that you've got agoal, you've got something
(12:20):
you're trying to accomplish,you've got a vision.
And when you've got both thepush and the pull working in
tandem and preferably in thesame direction, it just moves
the car out of the ditchquicker.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
So the next one gets into a little bit less of
mindset, more practical.
Uh it says, as an owner, haveyou mastered time management?
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
So I I like to do a lot of hiking.
And if if you go just maybethree or four minutes from my
home, you can go uh to theheadwaters of the Cumberland
Creek, which late later turnsinto this massive lake in
Chattanooga called theChickamauga Creek, primarily
feeds uh this area and it runsinto the Tennessee River and it
is small.
(13:07):
And if it is not rained, there'shardly anything there.
But you know, you hike about 17miles down the trail, and there
are these big, beautiful blueholes and swimming holes.
Of course, you go further down,you end up in larger bodies of
water.
But time management is theheadwater from which all
progress flows.
And most painters have neverread a book, never taken a time
(13:28):
management course, they don'ttime block calendar uh-like
things in their paintingbusiness because almost
everything we do in a paintingbusiness is exceedingly
repetitive.
We're gonna write estimates,we're gonna send invoices, we're
gonna hire people, we're gonnatrain folks.
Like it's the same 12 or 13functions over and over again.
If those things are scatteredall around your calendar, if
(13:48):
you're using your calendar uh asa sponge for everyone else's
needs instead of a shield toprotect your dreams, you're
gonna end up in a really badspot.
And people often ask, well, doesyour program work?
And I always say, it has neverfailed.
Not once, not one single timesince I've been doing this,
unless people don't do the work.
(14:08):
And the chief killer of that,once they have a little bit of
right thinking and even mediocremotivation, is just their
inability to manage their time.
You know, you give someone anassignment, it's something that
would make a big difference.
Two weeks goes by, there's noprogress, a month goes by,
there's no progress.
Meanwhile, they're doing thingsin their business, but they're
(14:29):
just not important things.
And every painting contractorhas the exact same amount of
time every week.
It's just that the ones that aresuccessful can budget that time
and put it toward things thatmove the needle permanently or
in large, um, large leaps.
Whereas the people that arestuck, they just can't get out
of that doom loop of doing veryrepetitive, inefficient tasks
(14:52):
that frankly don't matter thatmuch.
And I always tell our owners ifthe way you're managing your
time and what you're doingworked, number one, you wouldn't
be on a call with me.
And number two, you would havealready fixed your problems.
And so sometimes uh when yoursituation is not where you want
it to be, the only thing youreally know is that your methods
don't work.
And so when you come into aconversation with an expert or a
(15:14):
mentor, you know, you need tolook at what you're doing and
go, okay, I know I want to holdon to all this and I want to
believe that this is true.
But the fact of the matter isthe destination you're presently
in is the sum of all thatactivity.
And if it's not getting youwhere you need to get, you've
got to reevaluate what you'redoing and how you're doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:34):
Yeah.
And you and I just actually cameback from the PCA residential
conference.
And that is a lot of greatinformation, but I feel like a
lot of times it can beoverwhelming on the amount of
information you get of all thedifferent things that you could
be thinking about in yourpainting business.
And one of the things I likeabout what you do is you help
folks focus, you give themexactly what they need.
(15:56):
Like you diagnose what the issueis and you give them what to
focus on and to fix whateverissue they're facing.
So basically, it sounds like youkind of give them that that
thing, whether it's generatingleads or fixing their production
process, whatever it is.
And then it's basically up tothem on whether they set aside
time to do that thing or not.
(16:18):
And uh the folks that aresuccessful that implement it are
successful with the program.
The ones that don't set asidetime appropriately don't don't
find success.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
No, and it's weird to be a coach.
Uh, it's kind of like being a anathletic coach or a physical
fitness coach.
I can break a sweat for 12 hoursand you won't lose a pound.
Like I can give you the tools, Ican give you the methods, I can
give you the best classes, thebest equipment, the best
instruction.
But if all you do is listen tome yak and you don't get out and
(16:52):
break a sweat in your business,nothing changes.
And that is just the steadyapplication of time.
I mean, it's always amazing tome when you go uh and and see
these remarkable canyons inTennessee or wherever you go.
And it's just a little stream ofwater.
Often it's not very, it's like afoot wide, and there's this huge
cavern and this huge hole.
(17:14):
And it's just the consistentapplication of the water running
across what rock.
Well, you know, you put a coupleof drops on a rock, it doesn't
seem to do much.
But given enough time, it does.
And, you know, I try to getpeople to put more water on it,
uh, to apply more pressurebecause you can definitely do a
lot uh more uh cutting in ashorter period of time if it's
(17:34):
concentrated and pressurized.
And so just like we pressurewash a house, right?
You could throw a glass of wateron there, it's not the same
thing.
And so we just want to make surethat we're putting that
consistent effort in.
And you can't do uh everythingat once.
I see people they just getoverwhelmed uh about everything
that they need to do instead offocusing on the one thing they
can do at a time, which I alwaysfind to be kind of odd because
(17:58):
they don't do that when theypaint houses.
They don't worry about the 15houses that need to be painted
next.
They're always just worriedabout the house they're
painting.
Well, business projects are verymuch the same way.
Give yourself some grace uhabout things that you can't do.
Sit down, cut off thedistraction, put down four-hour
blocks.
Uh, we know from every uh everyform of research just about that
(18:20):
you don't get much done in 20and 30 minute increments.
Like you have to sit down andtackle very difficult projects,
especially if it's new, uh, inorder to see progress.
So those larger blocks of timeconsistently applied are really
what lift up uh every metric inthe painting business, and that
includes the quality of life ofthe owner.
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
So, this next question as might be one of my
favorites of this list.
Do you know even the mostelementary of your financial
numbers?
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
Yes.
So we're at this PCA forum, andI got this is like a broken
record of events.
People come up and they want tohave these casual conversations
with me, which I can hardly doanything for them.
I really need to sit down in adiagnostic to talk to them when
they're not distracted.
But I'll ask them, well, howmuch money did you make last
year?
What's your revenue year today?
(19:11):
What's your average grossprofits?
Uh, how many full-timeequivalents do you really have
if you're runningsubcontractors?
Uh, your close rate, youraverage transaction size, um uh
what's your your marketingexpense per transaction and
what's the percentage of it, andwhich one of your lead sources
are doing well, and which one'sdoing the worst relative to that
(19:33):
metric.
And people are usually like deerin headlights.
And I always know when I asksomebody how much money they
made and they are very confused.
And often it's well, I paymyself this and I took this draw
and I got this$60,000 truck andI got$30,000 in cash that's
under the mattress.
It's like if you don't know thechief metrics, and especially
that one, like to the number,um, you're in trouble.
(19:56):
Like that's like a canary in thecoal mine, and you need to look
at that thing.
And if that bird's dead in thecage, you're in trouble, right?
You need to do somethingdifferent, you need to get out
of there because it's it's justa it's a sign that you need some
help and that you need to takeimmediate action.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
That makes a lot of sense.
Uh, there's a study that wasdone uh a few years ago, folks
that are trying to lose weight,right?
And there were people thatweighed themselves every day,
and then there's people thatweighed themselves every week.
And as you might imagine, thefolks that weighed themselves
(20:34):
every day lost more weight thanthe folks that just weighed
themselves once a week.
So if you're constantlymeasuring and looking at those
numbers, they tend to get betterbecause they're top of mind for
you.
SPEAKER_00 (20:45):
So it's just and I would I would even go one step
further.
The outputs are all interesting,like your weight's interesting,
uh, but but that's just a resultof the inputs.
The thing that you want tomeasure downstream from that are
what type of exercises are youdoing, at what duration are you
doing it, and what type ofcaloric intake do you have and
what's the makeup of that diet?
(21:07):
Now, I'm a big physical fitnessguy, I'm pretty good shape for
somebody as old as I am, and umbut I'm I'm very consistent in
what I do, and so I don't worryabout the outcome.
I know what the outcome is goingto be, like I know what it's
gonna be.
My only job and your only job asa painting contractor is to
track the inputs and put itanother way if you were flying
(21:27):
at 30,000 feet with a pilot andit was just you and the pilot,
and you asked him, How high arewe?
He said, I don't know.
How fast are we going?
I don't know how much fuel wegot, I don't know.
Which direction we head, I don'tknow, but I'm sure we'll get
there.
You would go grab a parachuteand you would it'd be wise as
long as you weren't over a bodyof water to probably get out of
that thing.
And so many painters fly theircompany like that without an
(21:49):
instrument panel of any sort,and they're always arriving in
destinations they don't want inconditions that they hate, and
it's because their instrumentpanel is broken and they're not
looking at any of the keymetrics.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah.
Another next question is can youaccurately estimate your
projects?
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
So this was a mistake I made when I first
started coaching, which is verysimilar to what businesses do,
where you know you think thatyour strengths are the only
thing that matter and you don'treally even know your
weaknesses.
When I started my paintingbusiness, I instinctively knew I
needed to find production ratesbecause I'd never painted.
I instinctively knew thatbecause I bought labor wholesale
and sold at retail, I had totrack the performance of our
(22:30):
painters.
But that is not commonly knownbecause people take the standard
uh you know kind of approach inthe painting industry of
painter, crew leader, owner.
And you think you're doing thesame job and it's the same job
description, and in fact, it isnot.
And so if you're not usingproduction rates, and production
rates are not unit pricing, it'snot 250 a square foot, it's not
(22:51):
the square footage of the floor,it's not you guessing how long
you think it's going to be, it'snot you using square footage or
linear footage or unit pricingand then backing into it by
dividing it by your hourly rate.
It's none of those things.
The reason that every majorpainting franchise in existence
can take someone with zeroexperience and using production
rates can make them moreaccurate than you are in two
(23:12):
weeks versus 20 years ofguessing is because it the
method works, right?
And one concept I'd throw out toall the painters out there is we
all know that a gallon of paintgoes about 300 square feet on
drywall, brushing and rolling.
If I said it went 600, you wouldsay I was a fool.
If you said if I said it went100, you'd say I was a fool.
(23:32):
Because it's not true.
But for some reason, we thinkthat labor is elastic and it'll
go whatever we say it's going togo.
And that's just not the truth.
An hour of a painter's time whenapplying paint will go so far,
whether it's a square footage,linear footage, or a specific
object like a door or a windowor something of that effect.
And so you've got to be reallygood at predicting how how far
(23:56):
the labor goes, and you've gotto be able to um, you know, come
up with a scoreboard to showyour painters.
SPEAKER_01 (24:03):
Yeah.
And to your point aboutfranchises teaching their
franchisees the basics ofproduction rate estimating, I
did uh college works when I wasin college, so I was 18 years
old, didn't know anything aboutbusiness or much of anything at
all, really.
And like you just said, theyliterally just sat us in a class
(24:25):
for uh a few days to review howto do production rate
estimating.
And then I did production rateestimating for several months
and booked nearly$100,000 toproduce for the summer.
So it it is it's just if youdon't know what it is, you gotta
look it up.
The PCA has guides on it.
(24:45):
There's software that uses it.
It's just one of those thingslike you gotta get on board with
the production rate estimatingand stop using uh it always
makes me laugh when folks areusing um like the square footage
of of a of a house, like thethey're measuring the floor by
you know, and to determine howmuch to paint the walls is just
kind of backwards.
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
But uh be like if a flooring contractor came in and
measured the roof or thedriveway.
I mean, it just makes no sense.
But what it is, it's iscontractors have tricked
painters to do this so that theydon't know what they're making
and they don't they don't knowwhat it should cost.
And and maybe you heard somebodyin 1997 in a paint store say
what they charged and this ishow they do it, and so you just
(25:26):
adopt it randomly.
And you know, that's that'scrazy.
That'd be like if you wereprogramming programming a
computer and somebody handed yousome code and you just stuck it
in your computer and thought,well, this is going to make it
run real well without verifyingit or really understanding the
conceptual underpinning if it'seven uh even has a chance of
being accurate.
Uh, but again, that is it, ityou're not dumb if you've done
(25:47):
that.
It is common, it's ubiquitous inthe painting industry.
No, don't beat yourself up onit, but do immediately take
steps to correct it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Yeah.
So the next question is Are yourpainters shown the scoreboard?
And is there ample inducement toreach job profitability and
customer satisfaction customersatisfaction goals?
SPEAKER_00 (26:08):
So if I ask most of your crew leaders out there,
even painters, if you're runninga business, what they did for
you, most of them would say theypaint.
Well, if you ask my painters,they would not say that's what
they do.
You know, we had four rules atmy company.
I will do everything uh withinmy power to make sure that
projects come in on labor andmaterial budgets.
(26:28):
I will give the customer asatisfaction experience uh so
that I get high scores uh andand and and remarks at the end
of the project through thecustomer satisfaction surveys.
I'll follow the companyprocesses and procedures, which
were not onerous at my company.
I found painters, you need togive them the core goals and
then hire the right people andlet them go do the work.
(26:49):
Don't micromanage them, givethem an opportunity to lead on
their own projects.
And finally, I will not lie,cheat, or steal.
That covers everything else.
You give them an employeehandbook, they're not going to
read it.
Uh, but if you say you can'tlie, cheat or steal, it covers
just about everything else.
And so when they go out to do ajob, they need to know how many
labor hours are in the budget,what the material budgets are.
(27:11):
And then there needs to beeither performance pay or a
saved labor bonus uh so that themore productive they are, the
more money they make.
And it's not just enough to givethem money.
Uh, a lot of people aren'tmotivated by money.
So they need inducements incompany meetings where they're
rewarded, where they'rerecognized, where there are
contests, um, and and thosesorts of things.
The sense of community paintersoften overlook.
(27:31):
I mean, they overlook thepricing and and the rewards and
the scoreboard.
But further still, as youadvance, bringing that
confluence of influences aroundthem so that you're making sure
that no matter what motivatesthem, that you're giving them a
little bit of everything becausenot everybody responds to the
same things for motivating themto perform.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
So, next question Do you have control mechanisms at
the crew leader and office levelfor predictable production?
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
So there are really two major controls.
There are the systems and thepaperwork, whether it's digital
or otherwise, that you give yourcrew leaders along with their
budget.
Uh, in ours, it's called theultimate crew leader packet.
They have a, you know, meet thecrew leader sheet.
They have a labor hour trackingand material tracking sheet.
A lot of our guys digitize this,but honestly, you could run it
(28:28):
with paper uh because projectsare temporary, right?
They they come and they go.
There are some things that thatare fine for managing things
that are uh temporary, right?
It's gonna last 10 days, it'sgonna last 12 days.
We can file this thing away.
It's not like living eternallyand ongoing.
Some things you need softwareand databases for, some things
you could do with or without it.
It makes not a big difference.
(28:49):
Um, and it has, you know, aprocess for a dual column
checklist to it gets rid of like95, 97% of callbacks, payment
collection envelope, uh,customer satisfaction survey.
When you do it on paper, inperson, you get them back about
70 or 80% of the time.
If you try to survey them afterthe fact, you're lucky to get
15%.
(29:10):
The feedback's more importantthan the method by which the
feedback comes because you wantthe feedback.
It's also good to use in thesales process, change orders,
problem solving sheets,equipment checklists.
Look, what do they need?
Not the tools, not the brushesand the rollers and the
sprayers.
So they can take thisinformation, they can take the
material, leave, go do aproject, and come back with a
(29:32):
check or a credit card havingbeen swiped and a happy
customer.
The other control mechanism hasto be what we call the project
management and scheduling coursein our program.
And that's what happens everytime there is a project from
beginning to end.
It's the same repetitive stuffover and over and over again.
And if you don't have somecontrol mechanism, and if you
don't have one that allows youto schedule effectively and to
(29:55):
stay on top of things, whichhonestly you can do with a
simple spreadsheet for up toabout 20 or 30.
30 painters.
Once you get past that, youprobably need to step it up.
But very primitive, simplecontrols with talented people
can allow you to run a prettydarn big organization with what
I would call semi-formalorganizational structure.
(30:17):
You know, as you get toenterprise level, some of this
stuff has to be, you know,scaled up.
But for I don't know, 98% ofpainters out there, this would
be perfectly sufficient, but youneed something.
And finally, I would say youcan't run production from your
van.
You have to learn to runproduction from a desk.
And if if you could never leaveyour desk for six months, uh,
(30:38):
would you still be able to runyour painting business?
Would your family still be fed?
Would the customers still behappy?
Would the painters still getpaid?
And if the answer is no, you'vegot serious work to do.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
I like this next question because something I see
with the folks that you workwith, when I see their numbers,
oftentimes their customeracquisition costs are pretty
low.
And I think this is probably howthat they're achieving this.
And then the the question is howmany past clients and
unconverted leads do you have?
(31:10):
And if you painted for me 18months ago, what have I heard
from you since?
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Yeah, 18 months, 18 years.
Um, you know, I lived in-housefor 15 years.
I didn't move.
And if if if your customersmove, you should still keep up
with them.
But uh, you know, my backgroundis I worked on U.S.
Senate, U.S.
House, state, and local races.
I wrote a book called How toRaise Money for Political
Office.
I have ran 14 campaigns orlegislative efforts, they've all
been successful.
(31:37):
Uh, I publish our state'slargest conservative news
alternative.
And so in those that industry,the list is the business.
It's not something that you cando without and still eke out a
living.
It is the core of the business.
And most of your best ideas thatcome into an industry are not
from within the industry,they're from other industries
because there tends to be anecho chamber uh of slightly
(32:00):
better ideas that are exactlythe same in the painting
industry.
And so I brought that in.
And what we discovered is youknow, the second transaction
size is 60% larger than thefirst.
They close at about 60 to 70percent versus 25 to 32 percent
uh for net new leads.
Uh you your sales force it makesmore money seeing fewer people.
(32:21):
And then finally, theacquisition cost is about five
to 10%.
Well, the issue is you know,marketing feeds sales, sales
feeds operations, and operationsfeeds your income.
And so if you start out, justlike in physical fitness, with a
really bad diet, there's only somuch anything else you do can
produce.
But if you start out with a gooddiet, um everything that flows
(32:45):
downstream from that's gonna begood.
And finally, from an equitystandpoint, when you go to sell
your painting business, when youcan tell people, hey, look, I
got this list of 1,500 people,it produces$2.5 million worth of
revenue and repeat and referralsevery year.
All you've got to do is runthese two reactivation campaigns
and do mailed and emailednewsletter marketing, both of
which we furnish as turnkey donefor you services at the Painters
(33:08):
Academy.
When somebody goes to buy that,there's this big chunk of
revenue that's basicallyguaranteed, and then maybe 12 or
13% comes from operationalmarketing, and there's a very
small sliver that comes fromrisky net new marketing.
That's what gets that multiplierof direct to owner benefit up
from two times what you made thelast year to as high as four,
(33:29):
I've seen.
And I've helped about 30businesses um sell their
businesses, right?
I don't sell them for them, butI build them up, build the
teams, build the systems, helpthem find a broker, go through
the um process of negotiationand prospective buyers, and then
finally even going all the waythrough the training process um
(33:52):
for the new owners.
And about half the time I end upcoaching the new owners as well.
And so having seen that processplay out, both in my own
business and you know, a coupledozen others, it really makes me
understand the power of thatlist, both for your personal
finances, for the stability ofyour business, and at the end of
the day, your equity.
unknown (34:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
That's huge.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
Next question is Is your sales process persuasive,
or are you emailing a PDF andpetting the dog?
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
Yes, that is what most people do.
Uh email is the worst way toconceivably deliver an estimate.
Uh, presenting on site is thebest.
Uh, doing it digitally is secondbest, printing an estimate is
the best.
Uh, you should do both intandem, just in sales and
marketing, it's almost alwaysnot either or, it's all of the
above.
Um, and so we have very powerfulpre-positioning, presenting,
(34:45):
post-positioning, and follow-uptools.
What you have to realize isyou're selling something that is
remarkably expensive and you'reselling it in an industry that's
very high risk.
Because your lived experience,if you're a homeowner that
always uses home services anddoesn't do things yourself, is
that if 10 contractors come outand if you sign a contract with
10 contractors, about 30% ofthem are going to deliver what
(35:07):
they've said they will, andabout 70% of them will
disappoint.
And so when you show up and justgive people verbal promises of
what you're gonna do, it doesn'twork.
The other thing I wouldrecommend all of our messaging
that's in our sales process isbased upon surveys of a couple
of different surveys of 1200 andI think 900 and something former
painting clients, uh, peoplethat had bought painting
(35:30):
services, and people ask in thatsurvey, what do you think's
important?
So often as contractors, we wantto tell people what we think is
important.
Well, it what you think'simportant doesn't matter because
you don't say yes, you don'tsign the check, you don't swap
the credit card.
And finally, uh, you just can'tuh tell them you're a good
person.
You've got to bury them inthird-party proof in a variety
(35:51):
of ways, in a variety of mediumsbefore, during, and after the
sale, to convince them that it'snot just your verbal promises.
And I would close by saying thisabout your sales process.
It's not about building value,it's about reducing risk.
If we were in a trusted segmentand if we were perhaps selling
something that was low priced,build value by all means.
(36:12):
But when you're in a in anindustry that's not trusted,
generally speaking, and whenyou're selling something that is
very expensive, you've got towipe away every conceivable
doubt that the experiencethey'll have with you will be
similar to the above-averageexperience, or not the above
average, but the bad typicalexperience that they've had with
(36:33):
other contractors in the past.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
And one of the things that I think is lost on
folks sometimes is when youinvest in your sales process,
that gives you a really goodreturn because it lowers your
marketing.
You can spend the same amount ofmarketing dollars and get more
revenue because if you have amore persuasive sales process,
you'd be closing at a higherpercentage.
(37:00):
So that investment into yoursales process should have a good
return on investment for foryears to come.
So it's it's just like ano-brainer.
SPEAKER_00 (37:10):
Yeah, it's like marketing is is the water and
sales is the pipe that it has toflow through to operations.
And if that pipe is constricted,uh if the water pressure on the
other side of it is low, um,then not a lot is gonna be
making its way to operations.
And so all along the processfrom marketing to sales to
(37:30):
operations, and then through thereactivation and retention
processes, coming back in thisfeedback loop to marketing
again, uh all those majorcomponents, if you're gonna make
high income with the leastamount of effort, uh, each one
of those has to be really openso the flow can go through.
If any of those are constricted,uh you'll see it in your income.
SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
Next question.
Are you taking advantage of allyour operational marketing
opportunities?
SPEAKER_00 (38:00):
Yeah, Jim Jim Rohn used to say easy to do, easy not
to do.
And even our clients that arefive, six, seven million
dollars, eight million, ten,twenty million dollars that
track their metrics ruthlesslyfind that somewhere around 12 to
15% of their leads every yearcome from yard signs, door
(38:20):
hangers, and asking for reviews.
And when I do diagnostics forpeople, it amazes me, even
though it's so rudimentary, theyare either not doing it or
somehow they've managed to makemistakes in doing those key
processes.
And things like putting a yardsign out and taking it back up.
Like, I mean, if you're doingit, if you're doing a two-person
(38:41):
or a two-day job rather, and youleave a sign in the yard, I
mean, most of the time it'll bethere for 30 days.
The owner won't take it up.
But if you take it up, itdoesn't make any sense.
And so you got to leave thosethings out there.
You need to be doing 40 doors.
We have a very specific doorhanger that's different than the
rest of the door hangers outthere.
I'm a big direct responseperson.
I've done uh physical marketingfor, I don't know, 20 some odd
(39:04):
years now.
So I'm I'm a little bit morepersnickety about it than most
people because I think thedifferences matter because I've
seen it in the results.
But those little simple things,um, and even other operational
sales like upselling andoffering financing that can be
done by crew leaders, that canbe done by people if you give
them a little incentive and thenmonitor it in the meetings and
(39:24):
then reward the people thatperform and coach the people
that don't.
Uh, we call that an operationaltailwind.
And essentially, if you do itproperly for every job you do,
you can get half an estimate,and they tend to close about
like referrals at 50% if you'vegot a good sales process.
So when you know that you canget a quarter of a project for
every project you do, that makesthe the strain on your net new
(39:47):
marketing so much less uh thanif you don't.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Yeah.
I think the first time I wasexposed to you, I it was from a
direct mail piece.
It was like a huge manilaenvelope with a CD, like a C,
you know, old CD case, uh notold, but like back in the day.
This is like 10 years ago.
(40:10):
And uh it had like a bunch of ofyour your uh your materials in
there and everything.
I was like, what coming thiscoming in the mail?
I was like, what is this?
Who's sending me all thisinformation?
And so I threw the CD in, and itwas you talking about running a
painting business andeverything.
I was like, oh wow, this is uhit's pretty elaborate.
SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
Um but yeah, what I would say, I I know we're close
on time, but I've right now, ifyou call people, email them,
text them, uh, or do socialmedia, it all comes through this
device, the phone.
Uh mail and physical material isthe only thing that exists
outside of that universe now.
And email delivery is anabsolute crapper right now.
(40:49):
Text delivery is in the crapperand going in the crapper faster.
Uh voice is in the crapper fordelivery.
And so when you've only got Xnumber of ways to reach people,
you can't be ridiculouslyprejudicial about what you use.
You need to use it all in tandembecause study after study shows
(41:09):
that if you just mail, if youjust email, if you just text, if
you just call, you get X foreach one of those individual
things.
But when you use them in tandemin a compressed fashion, you get
1.2, 1.5, 2x.
And so that is something Ilearned in campaigning is that
there needs to be a crescendoleading up to the offer of the
(41:30):
event uh because that's reallywhat maximizes the turnout and
it's what maximizes the leads uhrelative to marketing and
painting.
SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
Next question.
Have you forged and maintainedB2B referral relationships in a
programming fashion?
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
So it was huge for me.
I started a thing called theChattanooga Trades Association,
and it was remarkably effective.
I've still got friends that Isee all the time, uh dear
friends from that, even though Idon't run a business anymore.
So much of B2B is just making afriend.
And if you're organized and itif you get out in front of folks
and you make friends withroofers, plumbers, electricians,
(42:10):
uh HVAC people, landscapers, etcetera, you should have the
Noah's Ark strategy, in myopinion.
That's you should have two goodrelationships with every home
service category in your area,and they should consistently
hear from you, both with yournewsletter, preferably in a
meeting if you can do it.
And then finally, throughpersonal communication, some
face-to-face, uh, some throughtext, email, or a call.
(42:32):
And you build thoserelationships over time and they
can be remarkably productive.
Instead of door knocking ahouse, how about door knock
somebody that can send you$70,000,$80,000,$200,000 a year?
If you're going to spend yourtime marketing, uh why market to
the end user when you can marketto someone who's in the homes of
thousands of end users a year?
It's a very common strategy.
(42:53):
It's how SurfPro built theirentire business.
It's the basis of pharmaceuticalsales, it's the basis of uh of
manufacture sales reps, and it'sa great training ground for the
next thing that I ask in there.
Um, and it's just tremendous.
And it is far more stable thanonline marketing.
You should be doing that stuff,but when it comes to marketing,
(43:16):
you should always invest in thehighest ROI activities that
produce the largest, best jobsfirst and work your way
backwards.
But what most painters do isthey spend all their money in
the lowest ROI stuff and theynever get to the big ticket
items, and then they wonder whytheir company is founding after
seven, three, seventeen years.
And it's because we've beenmajoring on the miners.
(43:37):
Um, you can't solve every uhproblem in your painting
business by swapping a creditcard.
Sometimes it takes shoe leatherand effort, and you you need to
lean into that or have yourpeople do it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:50):
Next question is are you surrounded by commercial
repaints, but it's not a majorpart of your portfolio?
SPEAKER_00 (43:59):
So I put this last because so many of the
fundamentals really need to bein place before you approach
this market.
People will come to me all thetime and say, Brandon, I, you
know, I don't like my business.
I really just need to get intocommercial.
And I start looking at thefundamentals and I'm like, boy,
this would just make you gobroke faster.
No, this is not what you need todo.
Uh, but once you have thesefundamentals in place, or most
of them, uh, commercial repaintsare remarkably lucrative.
(44:21):
They're larger, they repeat,there's less competition.
Once you get an account, it'svery difficult to have it stolen
from you because painters areway too lazy to go after
commercial.
And the other thing is how itinsulates you.
The residential market uh hasups and downs.
The commercial market has upsand downs, but rarely do they
have ups and downs completelythe same together.
(44:43):
And just it's you shoulddiversify your marketing.
You should diversify yourmarkets.
Uh, who are you approaching?
And there are always verticalsin commercial that will have
money when residential doesn't.
So when you have a slowdown overhere, you have you know this
going on over there.
And finally, commercial is anexcellent prospect for keeping
(45:04):
your pipeline full during thewinter with interiors for a
number of reasons.
Number one is they're spendingthe budget from the year prior.
That the next year's budget getsreleased around January most of
the time.
So right in the dead of winter,they're spending their final
money from last year and theirallocated money for next year.
And so many uh sectors in thecommercial uh industry end up
(45:27):
having shutdown work, or theirpeople aren't there, or their
schools and the dormitories areempty, whatever it happens to
be.
And so there's a lot of interiorwork that goes on in commercial,
and it's great for throughoutthe year, but boy, it can be a
uh a real game changer forpreserving cash flow and keeping
your guys working during a timewhen uh you know organic demand
(45:48):
is at its nadir uh for paintingcontractors.
Makes a lot of sense.
Well, Brandon.
Yeah, it's amazing.
It really does.
It does.
I almost thought I came up withit myself.
SPEAKER_01 (46:00):
Well, you've been super generous with your time.
I know we got to hop off here ina couple minutes.
Do you have any last thoughts orasks of the audience that uh
that you could do here?
SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
I'll give you two.
Uh number one is uh if you'velistened to these questions and
you don't have a lot of yeses,or if you're a little murky on
some of this stuff, the finalquestion you got to ask is,
okay, if if the answer is no toa lot of this, now that I know
what to do, do I know how to doit?
(46:31):
And if I try to do it, will I doit right to begin with?
And you know, how many years doI have on this planet anyway?
I I would encourage you to findsomeone or some program to go
with.
It's self-serving to say that.
But uh I have done of the 2,700diagnostics I've done, I've
probably done about 400 for asecond time.
(46:53):
Meaning I pull up their olddiagnostic, we keep it in a file
box uh electronically, and I'lllook at it and I always go
through the motions of doing thediagnostic the second time.
And nine times out of ten,nothing has changed.
Three months, three years, 10years have gone by.
And most people just can'tmanufacture things from scratch.
Further, there's so muchfriction.
(47:15):
Uh, even when I provide peoplewith the tools and the methods
and the coaching for them toimplement, when you try to
create that stuff, boy, it'sjust it's like putting a weight
around your waist while you'retrying to walk uphill.
Like it's just far moredifficult uh to have you know
all that uncertainty around you.
So I would look for that stuff.
(47:36):
Uh but I will say this likeeverybody thinks that this whole
process is very complicated as apainter.
And it's because when you'vepainted one house, you have a
perspective.
If you've painted 550 houses,hopefully you have a different
perspective, a different method,and a different approach.
And I it I've done this sooften, it's crystal clear to me
what needs to be done.
(47:56):
Einstein said, if you can'texplain something simply, you
don't understand it.
Well, this is something Iunderstand, like the back of my
wrinkly, freckled, hairy hand.
Uh, I understand it, I know howto do it.
And so if I can ever help you,just email me, Brandon at
PaintersAcademy.com.
You can go to our website forthose of you that are, you know,
you're nervous of some rednecktalking head.
(48:17):
You go to paintersacademy.com,get some information.
Or if you want to binge watch 12years of videos of me teaching
this kind of stuff and pickingup some of it on your own, I do
occasionally have somebodyimplement stuff at a distance,
and it's the biggest complimentanybody can pay for me is to
send me an email and say, hey, Idid this stuff and my business
is better, it tickles me pink.
And so uh you can go to theYouTube channel for Painters
(48:39):
Academy.
I'm always happy to talk tosomebody.
You know, if you decide to join,that's great.
If you don't, it you know, it'snot going to take a T-bone steak
off of the Lewis' uh plate.
And so if I can help you, I'dlove to.
Uh, and I just like havingconversations with painters
because it's a it's a fun gigwhen you get to see them
succeed.
SPEAKER_01 (48:59):
Thank you so much, Brandon.
Really appreciate you coming onand sharing some of your wisdom.
And I definitely encourage folksto check out Painter's Academy.
And I know you have the PaintProfit Summit coming up in
January, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (49:11):
It's our 10th anniversary.
Um, it's in Chattanooga,Tennessee, the last weekend in
January.
Just type in Painting ProfitSummit, you'll see all the
details online.
Um, it not only have we beendoing it for 10 years, but
because we did it in 2020 and noone else did, we are now
officially the longest runningpainting industry event in
(49:31):
America.
And so if you want to come tothat puppy, uh feel free.
Sorry, PCA, you took a year off.
You it's a hundred and some oddyears in the crapper.
And so, but we're we're now thelongest continually running
painting event in America.
And uh there's a reason.
Our guys are are very open, uh,they're very nice, it's a it's a
very respectful, helpfulenvironment, and it's all
(49:51):
contractor driven.
Uh, you only almost onlyexclusively hear from
contractors from our eventbecause my thought is people
hear from me all year long, theyneed to hear from each other uh
when they're together, and theyhave a great time doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (50:05):
Yeah, I can't wait to do to do it again this year.
So I'm looking forward tolooking forward to it.
SPEAKER_00 (50:10):
And uh please, please tell your beautiful wife
and give your your kids a hugfrom me.
Yeah, it's always great to seethe Honan family roll into
Chattanooga.
Yes, sir.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (50:20):
Uh thank you for your time, Brandon, and we'll
let you go.
And for the audience, we willsee you next week.
Take care, buddy.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.