September 26, 2025 • 41 mins
Stuck as the "perfect" painter who can't let go? Discover how Mihai scaled his painting business to nearly $1M in a small market, built a self-managing team, and now takes 3-month vacations while staying profitable.
In this episode of the Profitable Painter Podcast, host Daniel Honan sits down with Mihai, a high-end painting contractor from Sudbury, Ontario. Mihai started as a perfectionist solo operator, frustrated that no one could meet his sky-high standards. He reveals the pivotal mindset shifts and operational systems that allowed him to break free from the tools, hire a loyal team, and create a business that runs seamlessly without him.
You’ll learn how to:
- Shift from Perfectionist to Leader: Lower your "unattainable" standards (that customers don't even notice) to build a team without sacrificing quality.
- Build Systems WITH Your Team: Why involving your crew in creating processes, not just dictating them, is the secret to buy-in and accountability.
- Master the "Hybrid" Management Role: The exact formula Mihai used to hire a Project Manager before he could afford full-time overhead, creating a win-win blended role.
- Implement a Game-Changing Bonus System: Discover the incredibly fair per-ROOM bonus structure that motivates his team, ensures quality, and builds a culture of ownership.
- Dominate a Niche Market: How targeting the top 20% of earners in a town of 160,000 allows him to charge premium prices and get clients who say, "Price is not an issue."
- Achieve True Freedom: Learn the systems that allowed Mihai to take a 5-week vacation (and 3 months total last year) while his team ran the business.
If you're ready to stop being a slave to your business and start building a company that gives you time, profit, and freedom, this episode is your blueprint.
Key Takeaways:
- The hiring mindset shift that stopped him from driving away good people.
- How weekly company meetings create a culture of continuous improvement.
- Why he expanded into exterior and commercial work to break through his revenue ceiling.
- The detailed process for tracking labor and bonuses by individual room, not just by job.
- How to build a business that supports your desired lifestyle, not someone else's definition of success.
Subscribe to the Profitable Painter Podcast for more weekly strategies on mastering your numbers, boosting profits, and building a business that works for you.
For being a loyal listener, I want to send you a copy of my new book Profitable Painter. Inside, I’ll show you the exact frameworks that have helped painting businesses save big on taxes, increase profits, and scale with confidence
Head over to profitablepaintercpa.com/book and grab your copy today. Don’t wait — this is my gift to you for being part of the Profitable Painter community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running, and stealing
a professional paintingbusiness.
From the brushes and ladders tothe spreadsheets and balance
sheets, we've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice, specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
Let's dive in and make sure yourbusiness is more profitable one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today to speakwith Mihai, who has an amazing
(01:06):
painting business up in Ontario.
Welcome to the podcast, Mihai.
How's it going?
SPEAKER_00 (01:11):
I'm very good, Daniel.
Thank you very much for havingme.
Nice to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
Yeah, I'm I'm glad to have you here.
I know you're you're killing up,killing it up there in Ontario.
Can you to give listeners anidea of when you started and and
where you are now?
Uh just what when did you getstarted in the painting industry
and what have been some majormilestones along the way?
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Yeah, so I uh I moved to Canada in 2013.
Um I worked for a paintingcompany here for about a year
and a little bit, uh, just inthe beginning.
And then in 2015, I opened thecompany.
I just branched out on my own,just being on the tools and you
know, one-man show, like uh umeverybody else, or almost
(01:53):
everybody else.
And um I worked by myself forabout three years, and uh then I
started hiring some people, andI failed miserably in the
beginning.
Um, that didn't quite work.
Everything kind of changed, andI would say this would be the
first milestone is when I uhwhen I joined the business grush
group and uh met Nick May andall the guys in there, and uh, I
(02:16):
attended the crank event inDenver, and that kind of changed
my perception about everything,you know, in terms of hiring, in
terms of uh business type,because I I don't have any
business background or nothing.
And um there was a little bit ofan eye-opener that uh you know,
more could be done with apainting company than just you
know make a living and uh and uhbe an employee basically.
(02:38):
And then from there, um I um Ibelieve it was 2020 when uh when
I started to hire a little bitmore than you know, a helper or
two, or here and there, and Ireally got serious about
business.
So from there we grew in 2023.
We had uh nine painters on staffand a project manager, and then
(03:01):
since then we dropped down alittle bit.
So now we have seven paintersand one project manager to date.
All right, awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (03:10):
That's that's great.
So it sounds like you you knowyou were the owner operator 2015
for a few years.
Uh it sounds like you had somemind shift changes in around
2018-2019, and really startedgetting serious in 2020 to 2025,
and it looks like you had somereally strong growth uh between
(03:31):
in in those five years.
SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Um Yeah, we we did sorry, and then Yeah, no, go for
it, go for it.
No, I I was just gonna say wedid.
We I mean, we're not quite thetypical painting company, right?
That you hear that oh, we scaledfrom like uh 200,000 to a couple
millions or something.
We're still close to a million.
We we never broke the million.
Uh this year we're probablygonna be at around nine 960k.
(03:55):
That's what uh that's what theprediction is, and stuff like
this.
But um again, um we couldprobably be a lot bigger, but we
decided that we're just veryniche on what we were doing,
right?
So we we only did uh interiorfor interior residential and
kitchen cabinets, we've addedthat in uh in 2020.
Um, we've also targeted kind ofthe the 15 to 25 percent of the
(04:20):
top earners in town, so thatkind of limits us quite a bit.
Um now forward to this date,we're kind of starting to change
that perception a little bit.
Uh and uh we incorporatedexteriors and we've incorporated
some commercials, so we're kindof trying to expand because we
realize that you know we're uhwe're kind of locked into our
(04:41):
potential on how much we cangrow.
We we reached 10 painters, thatwas like probably the the
highest that you could go in aplace we are like where I'm at
in Sudbury, Ontario, we haveabout 160,000 people, so we're
pretty limited to uh to how muchwe can grow to that level, you
know, and that uh that pricesthat that we're charging.
So yeah, that's kind of like the10th.
SPEAKER_02 (05:05):
Yeah, so it sounds like you're you're initially
focused on interior andcabinets, and that allowed for
some some good growth uh to amillion in revenue.
And with the population onlybeing 160,000, you feel like to
really get beyond that, you needto add some additional services
like exterior to to basicallyincrease the revenue from that
(05:29):
point forward.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Is that kind of yeah, it's either that, either
we cut down on quality and wedrop our prices because we're
we're constantly say um toldthat we're double the price than
the next guy everywhere we go.
Yeah, right.
So uh that's a little bit harderto do, and I don't really want
to slash prices.
So then I'd rather just expand alittle bit in the areas where
you know we we could and stillkeep our healthy profits and and
(05:52):
everything.
SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
Right.
And you said 160,000, uh 160,000in as the population, but you're
targeting specifically like veryhigh-end uh wealthy individuals
so that you're actually workingoff a lot smaller of a
population, probably.
Yes, right.
Yeah.
So maybe the the top 20% ofthat, or maybe pretty much,
(06:14):
yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:14):
The top 20%, and then every so often, like we get
into, you know, some people thatuh get into money, either they
got an inheritance or somethinglike that, and uh, you know,
they then they can afford us andstuff.
But the majority of the people,yeah, it's there.
So any any kind of other jobsthat we go with uh we found that
it's kind of a waste of time tojust go and quote, because we
(06:35):
never get the job, it's alwaysthe same thing.
Oh, well, what what what are youdoing?
You know, that you're so muchhired.
And uh, you know, I think wehave pretty good value
propositions and everything, andwe do provide a lot of value,
but for people that don't havemoney, I don't think that really
matters.
You know, if they're not yourclients, they're not in your
target market, then no matterwhat you what you give them or
what you do, if the price is toohigh, you know, they're not just
(06:57):
not gonna hire you, in myopinion, anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (06:59):
Yeah.
And and with the uh with thepopulation, you're targeting the
top 20%, that really meansyou're only you only have about
30,000 in your your niche withwith the the pricing, the
premium service that you'reproviding.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Pretty much, roughly around there.
SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
Okay.
And so so with that, you youknow, if one percent of that
population of that 30,000 isgetting painting done uh per
year, that's a few hundred peryear.
So yeah, you know, that'sdefinitely or or yeah, so that's
definitely you probably have agood part portion of the market,
(07:38):
it sounds like, um, of that ofthat target market.
SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
Yeah, like I mean, we we don't have issues there.
Whenever we're we're in front ofa right customer, there's no
they don't get other quotes, andthere's no doubt that we're the
we're the choice for them,right?
Price is not an issue.
It's like I don't really carehow much it is, I know you guys
are gonna do a good job, you'regonna be here, I don't have any
issues.
Let's just do it.
And we are getting quite a bitof repeat customers now because
we're on the 10-year mark thisyear, and for the first couple
(08:05):
years we didn't got anything,but now we we see quite a quite
a big percentage of thosecustomers uh just reaching back
out because either they moveinto a new home, either they're
ready to to repaint their homesand stuff like that.
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
And yeah, that that sounds that sounds like a good
uh strategy to well, onereactivate past customers makes
a lot of sense.
Uh get repeat work, but alsoadding it uh another service in
that area since you're you havea great relationship with your
your target market already.
Add in um services that areclose, you know, exterior
(08:41):
painting, you're already doinginterior painting.
So that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
That helped us quite a bit because whenever I send
the the first mailer out sayingthat we're starting to do
exterior, we got a big influx ofuh of our repeat customers just
saying, Oh my god, I'm so happythat you guys are doing that.
Now I have this, I have that, Ihave the other thing.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, so we we got a lot of jobsthat way to start, which is nice
(09:04):
because it's the same thing youcan uh you can charge the
pricing that you want and maybea little bit higher just to kind
of uh you know make sure thatyou don't lose your shirt in the
beginning when you're firstlearning production rates and
all that stuff.
Yeah.
I mean, I I got a lot ofproduction rates from other
people in the community andstuff, but until you get your
own, you know, you're still kindof winging it.
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
That's awesome.
And uh I'd like to go back alittle bit um to in 2019 time
frame.
It sounds like you had some mindshift changes in regards to
hiring.
Could you go into more uh detailon what what was holding you
back?
Uh maybe some uh some mind shiftsome uh mindsets that you had
(09:47):
that kind of were limiting youand and what changed and and how
did that impact your business?
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Absolutely.
Like for me, I'm aperfectionist.
And like since I started, I wasjust every nique, every little
thing, everything has to beperfect, right?
And then uh when I first startedhiring people, I was just like,
what the hell, man?
Like, you do you not see that?
Do you not see that?
Like it was just basically uh,you know, nobody was good enough
for for me or doing a goodenough job for what I was
(10:18):
expecting.
And uh I lost a lot of peoplelike that in the beginning
because I was hiring people withexperience, right?
And I mean, uh probably theworst person to work for when
with that attitude and thatmindset.
And then I remember I saw avideo from uh Nick Slavik on an
Ask a Painter now when he wassaying, you know, the customers
are probably only expectingabout 70% of the quality you're
(10:40):
giving, you know, 80, 85, andyou should not ever expect 100%,
right?
And that was kind of the firstthing that I'm like, maybe I am
a little bit, you know, liketrying too hard, and maybe I
don't really need to go thatextra mile because nobody's ever
gonna see it.
And so that was the first uh thefirst thing.
And then I always thought thatokay, you're never gonna be able
(11:03):
to find uh people to work foryou.
It's you know, it was thatmentality that you you can find
people, you can find good peopleand uh and all that stuff.
And I was also limiting myselfthat I'm in a smaller market and
I kind of knew almost all thepainters, nobody was doing a
good enough job, so I'm like,okay, well, I guess I'm just
gonna be by myself, you know,and just make a living like
(11:23):
this.
Decent living, mind you, but youknow, you're still an employee.
Like it's uh that's what it is.
And then uh the next big changewas when I went to to the crank
to Denver and I met Nick May anduh and a lot of uh other guys on
uh on that uh that program.
And uh, you know, I saw thateverybody had bigger build
(11:44):
businesses, and they had youknow 10, 20, 30 guys, 40 guys.
I'm like, well, obviously I'mmissing something because if if
uh so many people can findpeople and can can build a
business that thrives and youknow is profitable and um you
can get yourself out of thefield and just focus on the
business side of things andactually just treat it like a
business, right?
(12:05):
So when I came back, um, youknow, I I just kind of went with
that attitude and just try tonot expect as much from the
people and just kind of try touh to give a break and to
understand that nobody's evergonna do it as good as I'm doing
it, to my standards anyway, liketo myself, and that uh nobody's
gonna give a crap, excuse mylanguage, you know, as much as I
(12:28):
do for everything.
And just um really started tobuild systems instead, right?
Rather than every time going onthe field and just lay down on
them and hey, you didn't dothis, you didn't do this and
stuff.
I'm like, okay, well, how howcan I reverse this?
How can I how how can I beproactive so I make sure that
all these things are done inadvance?
So started implementing companymeetings every every Wednesday
(12:50):
morning.
That's like standard, no matterwhat happens, 8:30 to 9:30 is a
full company meeting witheverybody.
Um started building um manualsand started building core
processes and pretty mucheverything, you know, like
you're explaining to afive-year-old, like, okay, this
is how it has to be done fromstart to finish, and then really
enforcing those things.
(13:10):
And um I'm pretty lucky to haveall the people that are working
for me.
They kind of bite in the visionthat I want.
And they're people that takepride in what they're doing, and
you know, they they pridethemselves on doing a good job.
And from the beginning, when Istarted these company meetings,
I involved them into the processfrom start to finish.
So, you know, today we weretalking about patching, let's
(13:31):
say.
Let's let's build the procedurefor patching.
And then getting everybody inthere and getting everybody's
input and basically creating thesystems with them, they they
bought into it and they kind offeel they're a part of it, and
they have to to do it that waybecause we all agreed to it from
the beginning.
And um that made the the worldof a change, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
So it sounds like uh one of themindsets were your uh standard
was so high that it it was thethe the the customer doesn't
even care about the things thatyou were caring about.
It sounded like like you yeah,like uh the PCA has the the
(14:12):
standard for a painted wall.
It's like it it it it should becovered if you can stand five
feet away and nor under normallighting with no you know
assistance to to look at thewall.
If it looks good, then it'sgood, as opposed to using you
know a spotlight and with amagnifying glass up to the wall,
you know.
SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
Yeah.
So it sounds like it was a veryvery unattainable um level of uh
of of finish that I was lookingfor.
SPEAKER_02 (14:41):
Yeah.
Okay, so you kind of adjusted itso that it was meeting the
standards of of your customersand who have probably have high
standards, um, but you were youwere just way above them.
So just tweaking it down alittle bit allows.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Yeah, just just kind of go in between, right?
Like just lower my standards abit to to where I can make them
attainable for people.
Yeah, that that we I mean forpeople to be able to keep them
on staff as well and not uh youknow not frustrate them to the
point that they want to quit.
SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
Makes sense.
Okay, so that was one mind shiftchange that allowed you to bring
folks on and still have highstandards without overburdening
them with crazy standards, itsounds like.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
I think that was that was the one thing that made
the biggest difference becauseotherwise I think I would have
still struggled if I just puteverything together and I would
have just gone, okay, you guysyou guys have to do this.
You know, they would uh it wouldhave never flew.
SPEAKER_02 (16:02):
Yeah, I think that's a key piece because a lot of
folks uh listening probablyprobably have heard you gotta
create systems.
Like everyone hears that, yougotta you know create your
processes.
Uh, but I don't think enoughemphasis is probably put on
involve your team in create thecreation of those profit
processes so that they arebought into it and they actually
(16:23):
they feel like that there'sownership there where they they
created it or they helped createit, and so now they feel like
they need to likepsychologically they have to
make sure it works and theyfollow it.
Is that what you've kind ofseen?
SPEAKER_00 (16:38):
Uh pretty much, yeah.
Pretty much.
And uh we've we've kept thatgoing, right?
So even to this day, every everytime we meet, we discuss things
and how can we change?
What do we need to change?
What do we need to keep doing?
What do we need to stop doing?
And you know, is is there abetter way?
Is there a new product that wecould be using to make our life
easier or to make your lifeeasier?
(17:00):
Because they they're the ones inthe field working with
everything, right?
Um so that really helps.
And that really like everybody'sbeen saying that they they can
wait for the company meetings,right?
Because it's interactive, it'sit's always, you know, it's a
way to improve, it's a way tomake their life easy and as a
whole to the whole company,pretty much.
SPEAKER_02 (17:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, what you just saidreminded me of uh, I think it's
the UPS founder, I forget hisname, but he would always ask
his lower level employees, theones the ones who are actually
doing the work, he would alwaysask them some question to the
effect of what's one thing thatyou would stop doing in the
business, or one thing you wouldstart doing in the business, or
(17:38):
one thing that we're doingreally well that we feel like we
should keep.
So there's always that feedbackfrom folks that are actually
executing the work becausesometimes as a leader, you're
like you're up in the tower andyou're not in the day-to-day
doing the work, and so you cankind of lose touch with what
what's working and what's notworking.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Absolutely.
You you tend to think that youknow everything that's
happening, but you don't.
unknown (18:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Yeah, cool.
So you you kind of had somemindset shift changes there, you
brought on a larger staff, youcreated ownership and and
started to to see the growth.
Um what are what are some otheruh challenges that you kind of
had to overcome in that growthperiod?
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
Well, the next one was when I uh when I hired my
project manager and uh you knowthere was uh there was the
delegation part and letting goof things.
There was uh that was the nextone because um you know I was
kind of a control freak.
I really needed to knoweverything and do everything,
and if somebody wasn't doing itright, I was the only one that
could do it right or fix it, oryou know, rather than uh then uh
(18:50):
spend the time to teach somebodyhow to do it.
I was just like, oh, it's gonnatake me longer to to teach you,
I'll just do it, kind of thing,right?
So that was uh that was kind ofthe second part.
Okay, how do I how do I removemyself from all the things that
I don't have to be involved withand just empower people and you
know train and just uh buildthat culture of you know taking
(19:12):
ownership for for mistakes andfor all that kind of stuff.
So that was uh that was probablya hard year that one just you
know mentally more than morethan anything.
But um I mean uh we've kind ofovercome it.
Like I still have the tendenciesevery once in a while to just
revert back to that, and thenI'm just reminding myself, nope,
(19:33):
not a good way, stop.
Uh you know, be be a leader, notnot be a you know, like a
manager kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02 (19:43):
What what point like revenue-wise, were you when you
determined, like, hey, I reallyneed a production manager?
SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
So this is a little bit different than every other
company as well, because uh myproject manager, I uh I trained
him from the ground up.
So I took I uh he came in as anapprentice in 2020 and then uh
taught him painting andeverything.
And he really showed interest inbeing with the company in a more
managerial role.
And we've always been talkingbecause the goal for the company
(20:11):
is to expand out of this area,so open more locations to bigger
cities and you know expand thatway.
And um, you know, I was keep ontalking with him in the
beginning.
Okay, would you be interested inyou know taking uh maybe over
this location or maybe you knowbeing in a general manager
position or stuff like that?
He did have some positionsbefore where he was working as a
manager in some other uhdepartments and some other
(20:35):
areas, some other fields.
And uh he showed great interest.
So we kind of roll with thatidea, right, from the beginning.
Okay, well, we'll teach youthis, I'm gonna teach you this
and all that.
So when we had five painters, wedecided to do a hybrid role.
So um, based on all mycalculations, we would need to
have eight painters on staff tobe able to make sense to hire uh
(20:58):
an overhead position for aproject manager.
So we just calculated thepercentage.
Okay, if we have five people,then you'd have to be uh 40% in
the field still, and 60%, youknow, doing the project manager
stuff.
So uh that's what we pretty muchdid.
Uh and then at one point hebecame full-time when we were at
uh 10 painters, and then nowit's uh because we scale back,
(21:22):
he's back at like 30%, or Ithink it's 30, 30 something
percent that he's in the field.
So that way uh it still allowsme to have freedom from the
field in terms of projects andand everything.
And um, you know, it's a littlebit more harder on the bottom
line, a little bit, you know,just because sometimes, yeah, we
(21:43):
do have five or six painters,but you know, there's vacations,
there's all this, there'sprojects, or there's
inefficiency in hours and stufflike this.
So you you can really kind offeel it in that uh in that
point, right?
But I'm very happy to to justnot have to be there all the
time and be able to focus on thethings that really matter for me
and you know have my time andenjoy my life to the to the way
(22:04):
I want to live it.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
I I think that the the way you handled bringing on
that production manager's soundsreally smart because you you
basically have a blended role.
And you so 10 painters wouldmean that you would need a
production manager to managethem 100% of the time.
But if anything below that, youbasically okay.
(22:26):
If we only have eight painters,that's 80%.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
If it's 60%, oh it was it would be for eight
painters, that's 100%.
That's a full-time uh thatthat's that's how I calculated,
yeah, based on our numbers andeverything.
But it was easy for him to do 10because you know it was still
kind of the same amount of jobsbecause three of those were
trainees.
So, you know, when you putweight for weight, it was still
kind of like eight point to fivepainters or something like that
(22:50):
based on their weight.
So it was good.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
So eight painters, 100% production managers.
That's like four crewsapproximately if you're doing
two-man crews, right?
Yeah, something like that.
Okay, and then if if there wasonly six, then there he's
basically 75% doing productionmanagement work, and the other
25% he he's doing, he's grabbinga brush and he's jumping in with
the crew.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:13):
Okay, cool.
Now that's a that's a a cool wayto kind of think about it and
and basically have that blendedrole so that you know it's a
win-win still, because a lot offolks I feel like they when
they're trying to hire aproduction manager, they feel
like it's all or nothing, youknow, where I need a production
manager, they're gonna just doproduction management and not
(23:34):
blend the role at all.
And so it kind of handcuffs theminto that.
When when I think that that's acreative solution, I think that
it seemed like it worked.
It's working.
SPEAKER_00 (23:44):
It works beautifully.
Like he's been uh he's been fortwo years now, two two and a
half years in this uh role.
And I'm all I've also beentraining him into sales and
stuff because ultimately he'sgonna be taking over my position
as a general manager when I movefrom here and open another uh
another location and stuff.
So, what does that allow me todo is like I can leave anytime
(24:04):
from the company.
So last year I took threemonths' vacation and I was out
of the country for the mostpart, and uh he was pretty much
running the show, right?
Sales and everything.
And like I have commissions andbonuses and everything tied to
it.
So they're making really goodmoney.
I probably made the same moneylast year as uh as he made,
right?
But for me, what that allows meto do, having the freedom to
(24:25):
just live whenever and know thateverything's being taken care
of, and uh, you know, alsoknowing that I'm not sacrificing
the the net for it just becauseyou know it's hybrid.
Like if I'm not here, uh I don'tpay myself.
I I I mean I pay myself, but youknow, you know what I mean.
Like I'm I'm just kind of likeI'm a shareholder when I'm not
around here.
He's taking the the percentageand everything, so that's been
(24:47):
working really good.
SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
Yeah, no, that's that's amazing.
Three month vacation last year.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Yeah, it wasn't all in one, it was broken up, but it
it accounted for three months.
Yeah, it's still I was gone fora month and a week, the longest,
so five weeks.
Yeah, no, that's a to come backto, so it was good.
SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
And so um so during that point in time, did you have
someone doing sales or like howdid that work?
SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
So it was like I was helping him as well with the
sales.
So he was doing uh like he wasdoing all the appointments, like
going in, taking all themeasurements and all the
dimensions and stuff, and he wasputting together the quotes that
were the simpler ones, and thenI was putting all the other
ones, right?
Because we're we're very, veryheavy on systems, like we have
everything systematized andwe're about 90% automated on
(25:36):
everything.
So we that that part runs likeclockwork, so it's uh it's
pretty seamless.
So I mean, for me it workedbecause I mean I'm still working
here and there when I'm puttingquotes together, but you know,
it's different when you'reworking from Europe in a country
on a beach or something, and uh,you know, doesn't really matter.
Don't really find it like workas long as everything's running
smooth here and the people havework and everybody's happy, then
(25:59):
that's all that matters.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Yeah, no, that's that's amazing.
Uh three months vacation, you'repretty much out of the loop, and
uh he's taken taking overthings.
And so um you're just helpinghim out a little bit with the
more complex stuff, it soundslike and yeah, and then you know
I was still a resource for him.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
So if if there was something that he couldn't
handle or something that youknow he had he needed help with,
I I'm always there, right?
Like my phone is on, my email ison.
Like I don't, it's kind of likea hybrid vocation, right?
I'm there, but I'm still kind oftaking care of the things here,
right?
Which I don't mind at all.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
Yeah, and I I think you guys do virtual quotes,
right?
Where they do, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
Is that so that's we can we do both.
So we give the up the people theoption.
Whenever somebody inquires, wegive them the option.
It's like, listen, we we caneither schedule an in-house
estimate or we can send you thisform and you fill it up.
Which option do you want?
You know, there's benefits toeach and there's uh there's
downsides to to other.
But we find that a lot of peoplemaybe they have busy schedules,
maybe they they can only beavailable after hours or
(27:00):
weekends, and we keep itstraight from you know the
working hours.
And uh, you know, they take thatuh that version, the virtual
quote, and you know, they get aballpark.
If everything looks good, we'llthen schedule an in-house
estimate.
Because if we know that you knowthe price looks good to them and
they want to move forward, thenI'll go on the evening or in the
weekend to meet with them, youknow, on their time.
But otherwise, you know, if wedon't have that that first level
(27:23):
of you know uh understanding,then doesn't really work.
SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Yeah, so if if they were expecting it to be$500 and
it was$5,000, then you justsaved yourself the time of
having to go out there.
SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
And I mean we we talk about all this on the on
our uh Discovery call, right?
Like when uh when people call usand you know, we kind of vet
them and uh you know kind ofthrow some ballparks here and
there just to see how how theyfeel about it, especially with
cabinets, because it's a loteasier, right?
And then for uh for interiorpainting, we kind of uh based on
(28:00):
all the data, we kind ofdeveloped the pricing for floor
square footage as well, youknow, depending on what you need
done.
So because the majority ofpeople when they call they say,
Oh, I have a 3,000 square feethome.
How much is it gonna be topaint?
Right?
That we get that question allthe time.
And I was always saying, Well,you know, that's if we paint the
floors or the ceilings thenonly, then I could tell you, but
otherwise it's impossible.
So I'm like, okay, well, how howcould we figure out a way where
(28:22):
you know we can kind of give aballpark to these people?
So we just run all the data, andbased on kind of square footage,
we have uh uh like a coefficientthat we multiply it with, the
whether it's just uh walls, justceilings, wall, ceiling, stream,
and everything, and we can kindof put a ballpark together, you
know, okay, it's gonna bebetween 7,000 and 9,000 or
something like that.
It's better than not having anykind of answer for them.
(28:45):
And um, you know, that kind ofoh my god, well, that's
ridiculous, blah, blah, blah,and then end of conversation,
you know, next kind of thing.
Or they're like, okay, yeah,well, we could probably work
with that, and then you know, wewe discuss further, we schedule
an appointment or whatnot.
SPEAKER_02 (29:00):
Makes sense.
Okay.
No, that's that's reallyinteresting.
Um so I I like how you guys areincorporating that that virtual
quote component to for thosebusy professionals of that that
can't put a you know, set asidean hour in the middle of the day
on a weekday, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
Which most folks are are not able to do that, uh,
especially high earners.
So that makes a lot of sense.
Um so with with that, you know,it seems like you have a really
great reputation based off, youknow, a ton of reviews, all five
star, and you've you know, youstarted just just yourself and
(29:42):
you uh had really highstandards, kind of adjusted
those standards brought on theteam, and you've had been able
to, it seems like communicateyou know your vision and they've
bought in and you've you knowbuilt a great team to be able to
continue to to serve at a highlevel to uh you know, uh high
wealth individuals.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Um what what do you think is uh allow has allowed
you to really be able to do thatand be able to leave for three
months at a time um you know uhdo you have like core values or
something that is keeping theteam on track and like how do
(30:24):
you ensure that the quality isis staying intact even though
you've grown your team so muchsince the beginning so we do
have core values and you knowlike we talk about about them
often but I think the corevalues are not important anymore
I think they're just built in inthe culture within everybody
right and uh I think one of thethings it's uh me not letting uh
(30:46):
the quality go and still keepinghigh standards just not um you
know unattainable standards kindof thing so I was still on top
of them like a wet rag wheneversomething wasn't looking good or
something is uh is you know it'snot done the way they should and
you know I'm there every stepand even now like if something
happens and stuff like I keepthem accountable and you know if
(31:08):
there's something that theymessed up they gotta go back and
fix it and you know it's uh it'sall that thing so they know they
kind of know that unless theythey keep up the standards
they're gonna have nothing butproblems in the company right so
we lost a couple people theykind of with themselves out
right because if if you'reconstantly being schooled and
constantly feel like you youknow you're in kindergarten
(31:30):
you're not gonna like that uhthat very much uh on top of this
we we also have a a pretty gooduh bonus system so everything
it's uh it's based on productionand quality and all that stuff
right and um that allows them tomake really good money and it
keeps them you know uh keepsthem very engaged and very on
top of things because I mean uhthey would rather put that money
(31:51):
in the pocket than go back andfix something that hasn't been
done the first time.
Together with that there's apretty a pretty high uh level of
uh of accountability andchecking so at the end of each
day every painter has to make anend-of-day report with exactly
what they've done with picturesof of the area they've done um
(32:11):
the project manager goes by oneach job every day just to check
on everything and talk to thecustomer and you know problem
solve see what's what and atthat level we're we're also
checking and then the leadpainters on the job side they're
responsible for checking all thetime for everybody that's there
so each job has a has one leadpainter assigned that it's kind
of like the mini project miniproject manager right so among
(32:34):
all the all those levels uh Ithink we we pretty much you know
nail it yeah and so could youtell me more about your bonus
system so are you yeah basicallyyou have budgeted hours and if
they are under the budget hoursthey get a portion of that or
all of that?
Yeah pretty much they get all ofthat so uh basically if uh if a
(32:55):
house is budgeted for a hundredhours if they're on 80 hours and
uh it passed the quality andeverything they get those 20
hours as bonus.
SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
Okay.
So if budgeted for 100 they doit in 80 they get 20 as long as
it it passes a quality check.
Is this done by the productionmanager or yeah okay by the
project manager.
SPEAKER_00 (33:17):
And then there's a caveat to that because if
there's ever a callback for thatjob then that's gonna count
towards the bonus for you knowit doesn't matter if that bonus
for that job has been paidalready that's gonna count into
the total bonus for the nextmonth or next period right?
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Okay so then the bonus pretty like as soon as the
the job is done in the nextmonth at the end of the month
the next pay period they'regonna get their bonus for the
previous month.
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
And we keep this very accurately we actually keep
it per room per person how theywork right because um like if uh
let's say you have two peopleworking in an area or three
people working uh or how howshould I say it uh um yeah I
mean if if there are multiplepeople working in an area right
we we kind of like to keep trackof uh of each area or no I'm
(34:08):
probably saying that's wrong soyou're probably gonna have to
cut that in the end um if uh umif you would have let's say four
or five people on a job siteright and you're bonusing
everything on a job site itwould kind of not be fair right
because if some people areworking on a high area or some
people are working in bathroomsversus something else you know
that would be kind of uh not notfair so like this we we keep
(34:32):
track per room so um let's sayuh John worked in three bedrooms
upstairs then he's gonna bebonus just for those three
bedrooms that he worked in rightand that kept everything very
fair and they appreciate thatbecause you know it's like okay
well it's I'm actually beingbonused on my work and on my uh
my productivity not you knowsomebody slacking downstairs on
(34:54):
their phone and I'm busting myuh my ass up here you know no
that's really really uh that'sreally cool so uh because I I've
never heard of someone I meanobviously I've heard of the
bonus system uh but not never byarea um so you're if you know
John is assigned the thebathroom in the hallway in the
(35:18):
kitchen he gets a budget forthose three areas and then so
everything is budgeted like whenthey get the budget they get it
broken down by room.
So this bedroom has five hoursthis living room has something
has something and the way we dothat at the end of the job when
they do their uh and I mean atthe end of the day when they do
their end of day report thenthey specify they break it down
(35:40):
exactly like how many hours Iworked in this room how many in
this how many in this withpictures and all the description
and that's you know that's beingtimed into the timesheets but
it's also broken up per room.
So at the end of the job youhave exactly everything broken
down nice with percentages.
If there's you know two or threepeople working in the same room
so you say you have an openconcept and somebody worked you
(36:03):
know five days and somebodyworked two days then that's
broken down percentually basedon how many hours they worked uh
to the full hours of the of thejob or area I should say.
If uh if John if he's underbudget well under budget but Tim
who's working on the same joband he's did the living room and
(36:24):
he went over budget Yeah that'sthat's the caveat that uh you
know uh as a company I decidedthat I'm gonna take a loss on
that if that means that peopleare gonna be compensated fairly
you know what I mean becausewe've had uh we've had jobs
where you know some people aremaking 20-30 hours of uh of
(36:45):
bonus but the job is actuallyover budget you know what I mean
yeah yeah but it's uh you know Iwouldn't feel that it's fair for
the people that uh you know thatworked really good and they they
brought those uh those um roomsunder budget to be penalized for
the other people that thatmessed up right yeah uh I think
(37:07):
that that's one of the thingswhy our culture is really good
because they know that it'severything's very fair and very
transparent and you know theynever have to worry about
anything kind of like that.
But I know what you mean likethat's always I'm like why did I
do this?
I should have done it the otherway around but yeah you know I
mean no that's you definitelyputting the giving the employee
a really great opportunity andI'm assuming like the folks that
(37:30):
are not hitting the budgetthey're probably I guess what's
the process for them like if youhave someone that's consistently
not hitting the budget since thegone they're not getting the
price they're gone like in twotwo months they're gone they
don't last because uh you know Imean fair enough one job two
jobs three jobs maybe you have abad period maybe something's
going on at home you're notsleeping things like that right
(37:52):
but if it's consistently thenyou know that obviously
something's gotta give so whatI've done in the past I didn't
uh I didn't fire them but I justdropped their price to the
percentage that they're actuallyworking so we have uh um our um
our average I mean not averageour a painter that's at a
hundred percent weight uh it'smaking thirty dollars an hour
(38:13):
and that's kind of the base soif you're at 80 then it would be
30 times 80 right so I just droptheir salary to exactly what
what they're producing and thenthere's no bonus there but I'm
also not paying extra so thatmakes sense kind of that that
didn't didn't really happen likeI've done it a couple of times
but the people left anywaysright so yeah that makes sense
(38:34):
nobody's gonna stick around andand yeah yeah no it's it makes
sense it sounds fair cool welluh this has been a really great
conversation um I think you'veprovided a ton of value to folks
that are listening with thebonus uh the bonus system that
you just went through with theblended role that you have for
your production manager the uhthe mind mindset changes that
(38:58):
you went through I think willwill help a lot of folks do you
have any uh closing thoughts orum or anything for for the
audience um I would say justfigure out what kind of business
you want for yourself what kindof lifestyle do you want to have
and make make that business workfor you because I hear a lot of
people you know I mean it's veryeasy to get um into the weeds
(39:22):
and just you know listen toeverybody how they say oh I've
scaled to three million in threeyears and you know we're making
this much money and we have 50guys and stuff and yeah it's
sexy it sounds good right liketo say I'm running a
multi-million dollar businessand and all that stuff but uh
how how does your life look likehow does your day to day like
what's what's the quality ofyour life are you enjoying the
(39:42):
journey or is it just a struggleevery day you know and I'd say
like just to anybody just try tofigure that part out and then
you know the rest just comesnaturally.
SPEAKER_02 (39:53):
Wise words definitely I mean the business
is there to support you so Iyeah I love it.
That makes a lot of sense.
Awesome well I really appreciateyour time today Mihai and I'll
always a pleasure yeah um Ireally appreciate it and
everything and for the listenerswith that we will see you next
week
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running, and stealing
a professional paintingbusiness.
From the brushes and ladders tothe spreadsheets and balance
sheets, we've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice, specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
Let's dive in and make sure yourbusiness is more profitable one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today to speakwith Mihai, who has an amazing
(01:06):
painting business up in Ontario.
Welcome to the podcast, Mihai.
How's it going?
SPEAKER_00 (01:11):
I'm very good, Daniel.
Thank you very much for havingme.
Nice to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
Yeah, I'm I'm glad to have you here.
I know you're you're killing up,killing it up there in Ontario.
Can you to give listeners anidea of when you started and and
where you are now?
Uh just what when did you getstarted in the painting industry
and what have been some majormilestones along the way?
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Yeah, so I uh I moved to Canada in 2013.
Um I worked for a paintingcompany here for about a year
and a little bit, uh, just inthe beginning.
And then in 2015, I opened thecompany.
I just branched out on my own,just being on the tools and you
know, one-man show, like uh umeverybody else, or almost
(01:53):
everybody else.
And um I worked by myself forabout three years, and uh then I
started hiring some people, andI failed miserably in the
beginning.
Um, that didn't quite work.
Everything kind of changed, andI would say this would be the
first milestone is when I uhwhen I joined the business grush
group and uh met Nick May andall the guys in there, and uh, I
(02:16):
attended the crank event inDenver, and that kind of changed
my perception about everything,you know, in terms of hiring, in
terms of uh business type,because I I don't have any
business background or nothing.
And um there was a little bit ofan eye-opener that uh you know,
more could be done with apainting company than just you
know make a living and uh and uhbe an employee basically.
(02:38):
And then from there, um I um Ibelieve it was 2020 when uh when
I started to hire a little bitmore than you know, a helper or
two, or here and there, and Ireally got serious about
business.
So from there we grew in 2023.
We had uh nine painters on staffand a project manager, and then
(03:01):
since then we dropped down alittle bit.
So now we have seven paintersand one project manager to date.
All right, awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (03:10):
That's that's great.
So it sounds like you you knowyou were the owner operator 2015
for a few years.
Uh it sounds like you had somemind shift changes in around
2018-2019, and really startedgetting serious in 2020 to 2025,
and it looks like you had somereally strong growth uh between
(03:31):
in in those five years.
SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Um Yeah, we we did sorry, and then Yeah, no, go for
it, go for it.
No, I I was just gonna say wedid.
We I mean, we're not quite thetypical painting company, right?
That you hear that oh, we scaledfrom like uh 200,000 to a couple
millions or something.
We're still close to a million.
We we never broke the million.
Uh this year we're probablygonna be at around nine 960k.
(03:55):
That's what uh that's what theprediction is, and stuff like
this.
But um again, um we couldprobably be a lot bigger, but we
decided that we're just veryniche on what we were doing,
right?
So we we only did uh interiorfor interior residential and
kitchen cabinets, we've addedthat in uh in 2020.
Um, we've also targeted kind ofthe the 15 to 25 percent of the
(04:20):
top earners in town, so thatkind of limits us quite a bit.
Um now forward to this date,we're kind of starting to change
that perception a little bit.
Uh and uh we incorporatedexteriors and we've incorporated
some commercials, so we're kindof trying to expand because we
realize that you know we're uhwe're kind of locked into our
(04:41):
potential on how much we cangrow.
We we reached 10 painters, thatwas like probably the the
highest that you could go in aplace we are like where I'm at
in Sudbury, Ontario, we haveabout 160,000 people, so we're
pretty limited to uh to how muchwe can grow to that level, you
know, and that uh that pricesthat that we're charging.
So yeah, that's kind of like the10th.
SPEAKER_02 (05:05):
Yeah, so it sounds like you're you're initially
focused on interior andcabinets, and that allowed for
some some good growth uh to amillion in revenue.
And with the population onlybeing 160,000, you feel like to
really get beyond that, you needto add some additional services
like exterior to to basicallyincrease the revenue from that
(05:29):
point forward.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Is that kind of yeah, it's either that, either
we cut down on quality and wedrop our prices because we're
we're constantly say um toldthat we're double the price than
the next guy everywhere we go.
Yeah, right.
So uh that's a little bit harderto do, and I don't really want
to slash prices.
So then I'd rather just expand alittle bit in the areas where
you know we we could and stillkeep our healthy profits and and
(05:52):
everything.
SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
Right.
And you said 160,000, uh 160,000in as the population, but you're
targeting specifically like veryhigh-end uh wealthy individuals
so that you're actually workingoff a lot smaller of a
population, probably.
Yes, right.
Yeah.
So maybe the the top 20% ofthat, or maybe pretty much,
(06:14):
yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:14):
The top 20%, and then every so often, like we get
into, you know, some people thatuh get into money, either they
got an inheritance or somethinglike that, and uh, you know,
they then they can afford us andstuff.
But the majority of the people,yeah, it's there.
So any any kind of other jobsthat we go with uh we found that
it's kind of a waste of time tojust go and quote, because we
(06:35):
never get the job, it's alwaysthe same thing.
Oh, well, what what what are youdoing?
You know, that you're so muchhired.
And uh, you know, I think wehave pretty good value
propositions and everything, andwe do provide a lot of value,
but for people that don't havemoney, I don't think that really
matters.
You know, if they're not yourclients, they're not in your
target market, then no matterwhat you what you give them or
what you do, if the price is toohigh, you know, they're not just
(06:57):
not gonna hire you, in myopinion, anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (06:59):
Yeah.
And and with the uh with thepopulation, you're targeting the
top 20%, that really meansyou're only you only have about
30,000 in your your niche withwith the the pricing, the
premium service that you'reproviding.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Pretty much, roughly around there.
SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
Okay.
And so so with that, you youknow, if one percent of that
population of that 30,000 isgetting painting done uh per
year, that's a few hundred peryear.
So yeah, you know, that'sdefinitely or or yeah, so that's
definitely you probably have agood part portion of the market,
(07:38):
it sounds like, um, of that ofthat target market.
SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
Yeah, like I mean, we we don't have issues there.
Whenever we're we're in front ofa right customer, there's no
they don't get other quotes, andthere's no doubt that we're the
we're the choice for them,right?
Price is not an issue.
It's like I don't really carehow much it is, I know you guys
are gonna do a good job, you'regonna be here, I don't have any
issues.
Let's just do it.
And we are getting quite a bitof repeat customers now because
we're on the 10-year mark thisyear, and for the first couple
(08:05):
years we didn't got anything,but now we we see quite a quite
a big percentage of thosecustomers uh just reaching back
out because either they moveinto a new home, either they're
ready to to repaint their homesand stuff like that.
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
And yeah, that that sounds that sounds like a good
uh strategy to well, onereactivate past customers makes
a lot of sense.
Uh get repeat work, but alsoadding it uh another service in
that area since you're you havea great relationship with your
your target market already.
Add in um services that areclose, you know, exterior
(08:41):
painting, you're already doinginterior painting.
So that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
That helped us quite a bit because whenever I send
the the first mailer out sayingthat we're starting to do
exterior, we got a big influx ofuh of our repeat customers just
saying, Oh my god, I'm so happythat you guys are doing that.
Now I have this, I have that, Ihave the other thing.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, so we we got a lot of jobsthat way to start, which is nice
(09:04):
because it's the same thing youcan uh you can charge the
pricing that you want and maybea little bit higher just to kind
of uh you know make sure thatyou don't lose your shirt in the
beginning when you're firstlearning production rates and
all that stuff.
Yeah.
I mean, I I got a lot ofproduction rates from other
people in the community andstuff, but until you get your
own, you know, you're still kindof winging it.
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
That's awesome.
And uh I'd like to go back alittle bit um to in 2019 time
frame.
It sounds like you had some mindshift changes in regards to
hiring.
Could you go into more uh detailon what what was holding you
back?
Uh maybe some uh some mind shiftsome uh mindsets that you had
(09:47):
that kind of were limiting youand and what changed and and how
did that impact your business?
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
Absolutely.
Like for me, I'm aperfectionist.
And like since I started, I wasjust every nique, every little
thing, everything has to beperfect, right?
And then uh when I first startedhiring people, I was just like,
what the hell, man?
Like, you do you not see that?
Do you not see that?
Like it was just basically uh,you know, nobody was good enough
for for me or doing a goodenough job for what I was
(10:18):
expecting.
And uh I lost a lot of peoplelike that in the beginning
because I was hiring people withexperience, right?
And I mean, uh probably theworst person to work for when
with that attitude and thatmindset.
And then I remember I saw avideo from uh Nick Slavik on an
Ask a Painter now when he wassaying, you know, the customers
are probably only expectingabout 70% of the quality you're
(10:40):
giving, you know, 80, 85, andyou should not ever expect 100%,
right?
And that was kind of the firstthing that I'm like, maybe I am
a little bit, you know, liketrying too hard, and maybe I
don't really need to go thatextra mile because nobody's ever
gonna see it.
And so that was the first uh thefirst thing.
And then I always thought thatokay, you're never gonna be able
(11:03):
to find uh people to work foryou.
It's you know, it was thatmentality that you you can find
people, you can find good peopleand uh and all that stuff.
And I was also limiting myselfthat I'm in a smaller market and
I kind of knew almost all thepainters, nobody was doing a
good enough job, so I'm like,okay, well, I guess I'm just
gonna be by myself, you know,and just make a living like
(11:23):
this.
Decent living, mind you, but youknow, you're still an employee.
Like it's uh that's what it is.
And then uh the next big changewas when I went to to the crank
to Denver and I met Nick May anduh and a lot of uh other guys on
uh on that uh that program.
And uh, you know, I saw thateverybody had bigger build
(11:44):
businesses, and they had youknow 10, 20, 30 guys, 40 guys.
I'm like, well, obviously I'mmissing something because if if
uh so many people can findpeople and can can build a
business that thrives and youknow is profitable and um you
can get yourself out of thefield and just focus on the
business side of things andactually just treat it like a
business, right?
(12:05):
So when I came back, um, youknow, I I just kind of went with
that attitude and just try tonot expect as much from the
people and just kind of try touh to give a break and to
understand that nobody's evergonna do it as good as I'm doing
it, to my standards anyway, liketo myself, and that uh nobody's
gonna give a crap, excuse mylanguage, you know, as much as I
(12:28):
do for everything.
And just um really started tobuild systems instead, right?
Rather than every time going onthe field and just lay down on
them and hey, you didn't dothis, you didn't do this and
stuff.
I'm like, okay, well, how howcan I reverse this?
How can I how how can I beproactive so I make sure that
all these things are done inadvance?
So started implementing companymeetings every every Wednesday
(12:50):
morning.
That's like standard, no matterwhat happens, 8:30 to 9:30 is a
full company meeting witheverybody.
Um started building um manualsand started building core
processes and pretty mucheverything, you know, like
you're explaining to afive-year-old, like, okay, this
is how it has to be done fromstart to finish, and then really
enforcing those things.
(13:10):
And um I'm pretty lucky to haveall the people that are working
for me.
They kind of bite in the visionthat I want.
And they're people that takepride in what they're doing, and
you know, they they pridethemselves on doing a good job.
And from the beginning, when Istarted these company meetings,
I involved them into the processfrom start to finish.
So, you know, today we weretalking about patching, let's
(13:31):
say.
Let's let's build the procedurefor patching.
And then getting everybody inthere and getting everybody's
input and basically creating thesystems with them, they they
bought into it and they kind offeel they're a part of it, and
they have to to do it that waybecause we all agreed to it from
the beginning.
And um that made the the worldof a change, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
So it sounds like uh one of themindsets were your uh standard
was so high that it it was thethe the the customer doesn't
even care about the things thatyou were caring about.
It sounded like like you yeah,like uh the PCA has the the
(14:12):
standard for a painted wall.
It's like it it it it should becovered if you can stand five
feet away and nor under normallighting with no you know
assistance to to look at thewall.
If it looks good, then it'sgood, as opposed to using you
know a spotlight and with amagnifying glass up to the wall,
you know.
SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
Yeah.
So it sounds like it was a veryvery unattainable um level of uh
of of finish that I was lookingfor.
SPEAKER_02 (14:41):
Yeah.
Okay, so you kind of adjusted itso that it was meeting the
standards of of your customersand who have probably have high
standards, um, but you were youwere just way above them.
So just tweaking it down alittle bit allows.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Yeah, just just kind of go in between, right?
Like just lower my standards abit to to where I can make them
attainable for people.
Yeah, that that we I mean forpeople to be able to keep them
on staff as well and not uh youknow not frustrate them to the
point that they want to quit.
SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
Makes sense.
Okay, so that was one mind shiftchange that allowed you to bring
folks on and still have highstandards without overburdening
them with crazy standards, itsounds like.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
I think that was that was the one thing that made
the biggest difference becauseotherwise I think I would have
still struggled if I just puteverything together and I would
have just gone, okay, you guysyou guys have to do this.
You know, they would uh it wouldhave never flew.
SPEAKER_02 (16:02):
Yeah, I think that's a key piece because a lot of
folks uh listening probablyprobably have heard you gotta
create systems.
Like everyone hears that, yougotta you know create your
processes.
Uh, but I don't think enoughemphasis is probably put on
involve your team in create thecreation of those profit
processes so that they arebought into it and they actually
(16:23):
they feel like that there'sownership there where they they
created it or they helped createit, and so now they feel like
they need to likepsychologically they have to
make sure it works and theyfollow it.
Is that what you've kind ofseen?
SPEAKER_00 (16:38):
Uh pretty much, yeah.
Pretty much.
And uh we've we've kept thatgoing, right?
So even to this day, every everytime we meet, we discuss things
and how can we change?
What do we need to change?
What do we need to keep doing?
What do we need to stop doing?
And you know, is is there abetter way?
Is there a new product that wecould be using to make our life
easier or to make your lifeeasier?
(17:00):
Because they they're the ones inthe field working with
everything, right?
Um so that really helps.
And that really like everybody'sbeen saying that they they can
wait for the company meetings,right?
Because it's interactive, it'sit's always, you know, it's a
way to improve, it's a way tomake their life easy and as a
whole to the whole company,pretty much.
SPEAKER_02 (17:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, what you just saidreminded me of uh, I think it's
the UPS founder, I forget hisname, but he would always ask
his lower level employees, theones the ones who are actually
doing the work, he would alwaysask them some question to the
effect of what's one thing thatyou would stop doing in the
business, or one thing you wouldstart doing in the business, or
(17:38):
one thing that we're doingreally well that we feel like we
should keep.
So there's always that feedbackfrom folks that are actually
executing the work becausesometimes as a leader, you're
like you're up in the tower andyou're not in the day-to-day
doing the work, and so you cankind of lose touch with what
what's working and what's notworking.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Absolutely.
You you tend to think that youknow everything that's
happening, but you don't.
unknown (18:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Yeah, cool.
So you you kind of had somemindset shift changes there, you
brought on a larger staff, youcreated ownership and and
started to to see the growth.
Um what are what are some otheruh challenges that you kind of
had to overcome in that growthperiod?
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
Well, the next one was when I uh when I hired my
project manager and uh you knowthere was uh there was the
delegation part and letting goof things.
There was uh that was the nextone because um you know I was
kind of a control freak.
I really needed to knoweverything and do everything,
and if somebody wasn't doing itright, I was the only one that
could do it right or fix it, oryou know, rather than uh then uh
(18:50):
spend the time to teach somebodyhow to do it.
I was just like, oh, it's gonnatake me longer to to teach you,
I'll just do it, kind of thing,right?
So that was uh that was kind ofthe second part.
Okay, how do I how do I removemyself from all the things that
I don't have to be involved withand just empower people and you
know train and just uh buildthat culture of you know taking
(19:12):
ownership for for mistakes andfor all that kind of stuff.
So that was uh that was probablya hard year that one just you
know mentally more than morethan anything.
But um I mean uh we've kind ofovercome it.
Like I still have the tendenciesevery once in a while to just
revert back to that, and thenI'm just reminding myself, nope,
(19:33):
not a good way, stop.
Uh you know, be be a leader, notnot be a you know, like a
manager kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02 (19:43):
What what point like revenue-wise, were you when you
determined, like, hey, I reallyneed a production manager?
SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
So this is a little bit different than every other
company as well, because uh myproject manager, I uh I trained
him from the ground up.
So I took I uh he came in as anapprentice in 2020 and then uh
taught him painting andeverything.
And he really showed interest inbeing with the company in a more
managerial role.
And we've always been talkingbecause the goal for the company
(20:11):
is to expand out of this area,so open more locations to bigger
cities and you know expand thatway.
And um, you know, I was keep ontalking with him in the
beginning.
Okay, would you be interested inyou know taking uh maybe over
this location or maybe you knowbeing in a general manager
position or stuff like that?
He did have some positionsbefore where he was working as a
manager in some other uhdepartments and some other
(20:35):
areas, some other fields.
And uh he showed great interest.
So we kind of roll with thatidea, right, from the beginning.
Okay, well, we'll teach youthis, I'm gonna teach you this
and all that.
So when we had five painters, wedecided to do a hybrid role.
So um, based on all mycalculations, we would need to
have eight painters on staff tobe able to make sense to hire uh
(20:58):
an overhead position for aproject manager.
So we just calculated thepercentage.
Okay, if we have five people,then you'd have to be uh 40% in
the field still, and 60%, youknow, doing the project manager
stuff.
So uh that's what we pretty muchdid.
Uh and then at one point hebecame full-time when we were at
uh 10 painters, and then nowit's uh because we scale back,
(21:22):
he's back at like 30%, or Ithink it's 30, 30 something
percent that he's in the field.
So that way uh it still allowsme to have freedom from the
field in terms of projects andand everything.
And um, you know, it's a littlebit more harder on the bottom
line, a little bit, you know,just because sometimes, yeah, we
(21:43):
do have five or six painters,but you know, there's vacations,
there's all this, there'sprojects, or there's
inefficiency in hours and stufflike this.
So you you can really kind offeel it in that uh in that
point, right?
But I'm very happy to to justnot have to be there all the
time and be able to focus on thethings that really matter for me
and you know have my time andenjoy my life to the to the way
(22:04):
I want to live it.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
I I think that the the way you handled bringing on
that production manager's soundsreally smart because you you
basically have a blended role.
And you so 10 painters wouldmean that you would need a
production manager to managethem 100% of the time.
But if anything below that, youbasically okay.
(22:26):
If we only have eight painters,that's 80%.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
If it's 60%, oh it was it would be for eight
painters, that's 100%.
That's a full-time uh thatthat's that's how I calculated,
yeah, based on our numbers andeverything.
But it was easy for him to do 10because you know it was still
kind of the same amount of jobsbecause three of those were
trainees.
So, you know, when you putweight for weight, it was still
kind of like eight point to fivepainters or something like that
(22:50):
based on their weight.
So it was good.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
So eight painters, 100% production managers.
That's like four crewsapproximately if you're doing
two-man crews, right?
Yeah, something like that.
Okay, and then if if there wasonly six, then there he's
basically 75% doing productionmanagement work, and the other
25% he he's doing, he's grabbinga brush and he's jumping in with
the crew.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:13):
Okay, cool.
Now that's a that's a a cool wayto kind of think about it and
and basically have that blendedrole so that you know it's a
win-win still, because a lot offolks I feel like they when
they're trying to hire aproduction manager, they feel
like it's all or nothing, youknow, where I need a production
manager, they're gonna just doproduction management and not
(23:34):
blend the role at all.
And so it kind of handcuffs theminto that.
When when I think that that's acreative solution, I think that
it seemed like it worked.
It's working.
SPEAKER_00 (23:44):
It works beautifully.
Like he's been uh he's been fortwo years now, two two and a
half years in this uh role.
And I'm all I've also beentraining him into sales and
stuff because ultimately he'sgonna be taking over my position
as a general manager when I movefrom here and open another uh
another location and stuff.
So, what does that allow me todo is like I can leave anytime
(24:04):
from the company.
So last year I took threemonths' vacation and I was out
of the country for the mostpart, and uh he was pretty much
running the show, right?
Sales and everything.
And like I have commissions andbonuses and everything tied to
it.
So they're making really goodmoney.
I probably made the same moneylast year as uh as he made,
right?
But for me, what that allows meto do, having the freedom to
(24:25):
just live whenever and know thateverything's being taken care
of, and uh, you know, alsoknowing that I'm not sacrificing
the the net for it just becauseyou know it's hybrid.
Like if I'm not here, uh I don'tpay myself.
I I I mean I pay myself, but youknow, you know what I mean.
Like I'm I'm just kind of likeI'm a shareholder when I'm not
around here.
He's taking the the percentageand everything, so that's been
(24:47):
working really good.
SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
Yeah, no, that's that's amazing.
Three month vacation last year.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Yeah, it wasn't all in one, it was broken up, but it
it accounted for three months.
Yeah, it's still I was gone fora month and a week, the longest,
so five weeks.
Yeah, no, that's a to come backto, so it was good.
SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
And so um so during that point in time, did you have
someone doing sales or like howdid that work?
SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
So it was like I was helping him as well with the
sales.
So he was doing uh like he wasdoing all the appointments, like
going in, taking all themeasurements and all the
dimensions and stuff, and he wasputting together the quotes that
were the simpler ones, and thenI was putting all the other
ones, right?
Because we're we're very, veryheavy on systems, like we have
everything systematized andwe're about 90% automated on
(25:36):
everything.
So we that that part runs likeclockwork, so it's uh it's
pretty seamless.
So I mean, for me it workedbecause I mean I'm still working
here and there when I'm puttingquotes together, but you know,
it's different when you'reworking from Europe in a country
on a beach or something, and uh,you know, doesn't really matter.
Don't really find it like workas long as everything's running
smooth here and the people havework and everybody's happy, then
(25:59):
that's all that matters.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Yeah, no, that's that's amazing.
Uh three months vacation, you'repretty much out of the loop, and
uh he's taken taking overthings.
And so um you're just helpinghim out a little bit with the
more complex stuff, it soundslike and yeah, and then you know
I was still a resource for him.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
So if if there was something that he couldn't
handle or something that youknow he had he needed help with,
I I'm always there, right?
Like my phone is on, my email ison.
Like I don't, it's kind of likea hybrid vocation, right?
I'm there, but I'm still kind oftaking care of the things here,
right?
Which I don't mind at all.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
Yeah, and I I think you guys do virtual quotes,
right?
Where they do, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
Is that so that's we can we do both.
So we give the up the people theoption.
Whenever somebody inquires, wegive them the option.
It's like, listen, we we caneither schedule an in-house
estimate or we can send you thisform and you fill it up.
Which option do you want?
You know, there's benefits toeach and there's uh there's
downsides to to other.
But we find that a lot of peoplemaybe they have busy schedules,
maybe they they can only beavailable after hours or
(27:00):
weekends, and we keep itstraight from you know the
working hours.
And uh, you know, they take thatuh that version, the virtual
quote, and you know, they get aballpark.
If everything looks good, we'llthen schedule an in-house
estimate.
Because if we know that you knowthe price looks good to them and
they want to move forward, thenI'll go on the evening or in the
weekend to meet with them, youknow, on their time.
But otherwise, you know, if wedon't have that that first level
(27:23):
of you know uh understanding,then doesn't really work.
SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Yeah, so if if they were expecting it to be$500 and
it was$5,000, then you justsaved yourself the time of
having to go out there.
SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
And I mean we we talk about all this on the on
our uh Discovery call, right?
Like when uh when people call usand you know, we kind of vet
them and uh you know kind ofthrow some ballparks here and
there just to see how how theyfeel about it, especially with
cabinets, because it's a loteasier, right?
And then for uh for interiorpainting, we kind of uh based on
(28:00):
all the data, we kind ofdeveloped the pricing for floor
square footage as well, youknow, depending on what you need
done.
So because the majority ofpeople when they call they say,
Oh, I have a 3,000 square feethome.
How much is it gonna be topaint?
Right?
That we get that question allthe time.
And I was always saying, Well,you know, that's if we paint the
floors or the ceilings thenonly, then I could tell you, but
otherwise it's impossible.
So I'm like, okay, well, how howcould we figure out a way where
(28:22):
you know we can kind of give aballpark to these people?
So we just run all the data, andbased on kind of square footage,
we have uh uh like a coefficientthat we multiply it with, the
whether it's just uh walls, justceilings, wall, ceiling, stream,
and everything, and we can kindof put a ballpark together, you
know, okay, it's gonna bebetween 7,000 and 9,000 or
something like that.
It's better than not having anykind of answer for them.
(28:45):
And um, you know, that kind ofoh my god, well, that's
ridiculous, blah, blah, blah,and then end of conversation,
you know, next kind of thing.
Or they're like, okay, yeah,well, we could probably work
with that, and then you know, wewe discuss further, we schedule
an appointment or whatnot.
SPEAKER_02 (29:00):
Makes sense.
Okay.
No, that's that's reallyinteresting.
Um so I I like how you guys areincorporating that that virtual
quote component to for thosebusy professionals of that that
can't put a you know, set asidean hour in the middle of the day
on a weekday, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
Which most folks are are not able to do that, uh,
especially high earners.
So that makes a lot of sense.
Um so with with that, you know,it seems like you have a really
great reputation based off, youknow, a ton of reviews, all five
star, and you've you know, youstarted just just yourself and
(29:42):
you uh had really highstandards, kind of adjusted
those standards brought on theteam, and you've had been able
to, it seems like communicateyou know your vision and they've
bought in and you've you knowbuilt a great team to be able to
continue to to serve at a highlevel to uh you know, uh high
wealth individuals.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Um what what do you think is uh allow has allowed
you to really be able to do thatand be able to leave for three
months at a time um you know uhdo you have like core values or
something that is keeping theteam on track and like how do
(30:24):
you ensure that the quality isis staying intact even though
you've grown your team so muchsince the beginning so we do
have core values and you knowlike we talk about about them
often but I think the corevalues are not important anymore
I think they're just built in inthe culture within everybody
right and uh I think one of thethings it's uh me not letting uh
(30:46):
the quality go and still keepinghigh standards just not um you
know unattainable standards kindof thing so I was still on top
of them like a wet rag wheneversomething wasn't looking good or
something is uh is you know it'snot done the way they should and
you know I'm there every stepand even now like if something
happens and stuff like I keepthem accountable and you know if
(31:08):
there's something that theymessed up they gotta go back and
fix it and you know it's uh it'sall that thing so they know they
kind of know that unless theythey keep up the standards
they're gonna have nothing butproblems in the company right so
we lost a couple people theykind of with themselves out
right because if if you'reconstantly being schooled and
constantly feel like you youknow you're in kindergarten
(31:30):
you're not gonna like that uhthat very much uh on top of this
we we also have a a pretty gooduh bonus system so everything
it's uh it's based on productionand quality and all that stuff
right and um that allows them tomake really good money and it
keeps them you know uh keepsthem very engaged and very on
top of things because I mean uhthey would rather put that money
(31:51):
in the pocket than go back andfix something that hasn't been
done the first time.
Together with that there's apretty a pretty high uh level of
uh of accountability andchecking so at the end of each
day every painter has to make anend-of-day report with exactly
what they've done with picturesof of the area they've done um
(32:11):
the project manager goes by oneach job every day just to check
on everything and talk to thecustomer and you know problem
solve see what's what and atthat level we're we're also
checking and then the leadpainters on the job side they're
responsible for checking all thetime for everybody that's there
so each job has a has one leadpainter assigned that it's kind
of like the mini project miniproject manager right so among
(32:34):
all the all those levels uh Ithink we we pretty much you know
nail it yeah and so could youtell me more about your bonus
system so are you yeah basicallyyou have budgeted hours and if
they are under the budget hoursthey get a portion of that or
all of that?
Yeah pretty much they get all ofthat so uh basically if uh if a
(32:55):
house is budgeted for a hundredhours if they're on 80 hours and
uh it passed the quality andeverything they get those 20
hours as bonus.
SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
Okay.
So if budgeted for 100 they doit in 80 they get 20 as long as
it it passes a quality check.
Is this done by the productionmanager or yeah okay by the
project manager.
SPEAKER_00 (33:17):
And then there's a caveat to that because if
there's ever a callback for thatjob then that's gonna count
towards the bonus for you knowit doesn't matter if that bonus
for that job has been paidalready that's gonna count into
the total bonus for the nextmonth or next period right?
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Okay so then the bonus pretty like as soon as the
the job is done in the nextmonth at the end of the month
the next pay period they'regonna get their bonus for the
previous month.
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
And we keep this very accurately we actually keep
it per room per person how theywork right because um like if uh
let's say you have two peopleworking in an area or three
people working uh or how howshould I say it uh um yeah I
mean if if there are multiplepeople working in an area right
we we kind of like to keep trackof uh of each area or no I'm
(34:08):
probably saying that's wrong soyou're probably gonna have to
cut that in the end um if uh umif you would have let's say four
or five people on a job siteright and you're bonusing
everything on a job site itwould kind of not be fair right
because if some people areworking on a high area or some
people are working in bathroomsversus something else you know
that would be kind of uh not notfair so like this we we keep
(34:32):
track per room so um let's sayuh John worked in three bedrooms
upstairs then he's gonna bebonus just for those three
bedrooms that he worked in rightand that kept everything very
fair and they appreciate thatbecause you know it's like okay
well it's I'm actually beingbonused on my work and on my uh
my productivity not you knowsomebody slacking downstairs on
(34:54):
their phone and I'm busting myuh my ass up here you know no
that's really really uh that'sreally cool so uh because I I've
never heard of someone I meanobviously I've heard of the
bonus system uh but not never byarea um so you're if you know
John is assigned the thebathroom in the hallway in the
(35:18):
kitchen he gets a budget forthose three areas and then so
everything is budgeted like whenthey get the budget they get it
broken down by room.
So this bedroom has five hoursthis living room has something
has something and the way we dothat at the end of the job when
they do their uh and I mean atthe end of the day when they do
their end of day report thenthey specify they break it down
(35:40):
exactly like how many hours Iworked in this room how many in
this how many in this withpictures and all the description
and that's you know that's beingtimed into the timesheets but
it's also broken up per room.
So at the end of the job youhave exactly everything broken
down nice with percentages.
If there's you know two or threepeople working in the same room
so you say you have an openconcept and somebody worked you
(36:03):
know five days and somebodyworked two days then that's
broken down percentually basedon how many hours they worked uh
to the full hours of the of thejob or area I should say.
If uh if John if he's underbudget well under budget but Tim
who's working on the same joband he's did the living room and
(36:24):
he went over budget Yeah that'sthat's the caveat that uh you
know uh as a company I decidedthat I'm gonna take a loss on
that if that means that peopleare gonna be compensated fairly
you know what I mean becausewe've had uh we've had jobs
where you know some people aremaking 20-30 hours of uh of
(36:45):
bonus but the job is actuallyover budget you know what I mean
yeah yeah but it's uh you know Iwouldn't feel that it's fair for
the people that uh you know thatworked really good and they they
brought those uh those um roomsunder budget to be penalized for
the other people that thatmessed up right yeah uh I think
(37:07):
that that's one of the thingswhy our culture is really good
because they know that it'severything's very fair and very
transparent and you know theynever have to worry about
anything kind of like that.
But I know what you mean likethat's always I'm like why did I
do this?
I should have done it the otherway around but yeah you know I
mean no that's you definitelyputting the giving the employee
a really great opportunity andI'm assuming like the folks that
(37:30):
are not hitting the budgetthey're probably I guess what's
the process for them like if youhave someone that's consistently
not hitting the budget since thegone they're not getting the
price they're gone like in twotwo months they're gone they
don't last because uh you know Imean fair enough one job two
jobs three jobs maybe you have abad period maybe something's
going on at home you're notsleeping things like that right
(37:52):
but if it's consistently thenyou know that obviously
something's gotta give so whatI've done in the past I didn't
uh I didn't fire them but I justdropped their price to the
percentage that they're actuallyworking so we have uh um our um
our average I mean not averageour a painter that's at a
hundred percent weight uh it'smaking thirty dollars an hour
(38:13):
and that's kind of the base soif you're at 80 then it would be
30 times 80 right so I just droptheir salary to exactly what
what they're producing and thenthere's no bonus there but I'm
also not paying extra so thatmakes sense kind of that that
didn't didn't really happen likeI've done it a couple of times
but the people left anywaysright so yeah that makes sense
(38:34):
nobody's gonna stick around andand yeah yeah no it's it makes
sense it sounds fair cool welluh this has been a really great
conversation um I think you'veprovided a ton of value to folks
that are listening with thebonus uh the bonus system that
you just went through with theblended role that you have for
your production manager the uhthe mind mindset changes that
(38:58):
you went through I think willwill help a lot of folks do you
have any uh closing thoughts orum or anything for for the
audience um I would say justfigure out what kind of business
you want for yourself what kindof lifestyle do you want to have
and make make that business workfor you because I hear a lot of
people you know I mean it's veryeasy to get um into the weeds
(39:22):
and just you know listen toeverybody how they say oh I've
scaled to three million in threeyears and you know we're making
this much money and we have 50guys and stuff and yeah it's
sexy it sounds good right liketo say I'm running a
multi-million dollar businessand and all that stuff but uh
how how does your life look likehow does your day to day like
what's what's the quality ofyour life are you enjoying the
(39:42):
journey or is it just a struggleevery day you know and I'd say
like just to anybody just try tofigure that part out and then
you know the rest just comesnaturally.
SPEAKER_02 (39:53):
Wise words definitely I mean the business
is there to support you so Iyeah I love it.
That makes a lot of sense.
Awesome well I really appreciateyour time today Mihai and I'll
always a pleasure yeah um Ireally appreciate it and
everything and for the listenerswith that we will see you next
week
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