October 10, 2025 • 37 mins
Ready to scale a painting business to 76 locations with a 24% net profit? In this value-packed episode of the Profitable Painter Podcast, we sit down with Jay Mason, a true industry insider who went from a Sherwin-Williams store manager to building a formidable painting franchise empire.
He pulls back the curtain on the exact systems, processes, and mindset shifts that allow his franchisees, even those with zero painting experience, to build consistently profitable and scalable businesses. If you're tired of the feast-or-famine cycle and want to build a business that works for you, this is your masterclass.
You’ll learn how to:
- Build Profitability with Precision: Why job costing every single project is the non-negotiable key to achieving an average 24.4% net profit.
- Master the Sub vs. Employee Debate: Discover the hybrid model Jay recommends, when to make the switch, and how to build win-win partnerships with subcontractors so they treat your clients like gold.
- Scale with Systems, Not Just Sweat: The proven franchise playbooks that systematize everything from sales to operations, allowing new owners to scale faster and more profitably.
- Ensure Consistent Cash Flow: The critical importance of marketing year-round and diversifying your service offerings (like garage floors & decks) to keep revenue flowing in any market.
- Avoid the #1 Pitfall of Failing Contractors: The two major cash flow and profitability traps that sink most business owners, and how to avoid them.
- The Recipe for Top-Tier Success: The three things Jay’s most successful franchisees all do: continuous education, relentless marketing, and building relationships, not transactions.
If you're ready to stop chasing transactions and start building a business that thrives on relationships and systems, Jay’s insights from analyzing dozens of markets are pure gold.
Key Takeaways:
- How to negotiate with subs by viewing jobs as a "portfolio" of singles, doubles, and home runs.
- Why the "path of least resistance" is killing your profitability and how to stay disciplined with your processes.
- The inexpensive strategy to ensure past clients remember you and become a source of recurring revenue.
- How offering multiple niche services protects your business during market shifts.
- Jay's top advice: Never stop learning, network with other successful contractors, and most importantly, have fun building your business.
If you enjoyed this conversation, hit that SUBSCRIBE button for more weekly strategies on mastering your numbers, boosting profits, and building a business that works for you
For being a loyal listener, I want to send you a copy of my new book Profitable Painter. Inside, I’ll show you the exact frameworks that have helped painting businesses save big on taxes, increase profits, and scale with confidence
Head over to profitablepaintercpa.com/book and grab your copy today. Don’t wait — this is my gift to you for being part of the Profitable Painter community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple: to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running, and scaling a
professional painting business.
From the brushes and ladders tothe spreadsheets and balance
sheets, we've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice, specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today to haveJay Mason out of Utah.
(01:02):
How's it going, Jay?
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Doing wonderful.
Thank you for having me, Daniel.
SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Absolutely.
No, I'm super excited to getinto things.
I know you've you've built apretty uh formidable business.
So um, could you kind of givefolks an understanding of where
where you got started, how yougot started in the painting
industry, and what have beensome major milestones along the
way?
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Yeah, no, thank you.
Uh uh I have kind of ainteresting story of how I got
involved in the paint industry.
My my dad worked 46 years forSherman Williams, and so I grew
up around paint stores and alsopainting contractors.
Uh, my dad, as kids, wouldinvolve us with overnight sales
(01:44):
trips.
And I remember probably being 10to 12 years of age, walking job
sites with a hard hat on, andyou know, just seeing kind of
how painters did things.
And uh, I guess, you know, itwas impressionable upon myself.
And so at 16, I begged for a jobto work with Sherwin Williams as
well.
And so I spent my first 13 yearslearning the industry from the
(02:06):
the Sherman Williams angle.
And so I worked in at, you know,as a store manager and then last
four years as an outsidesalesperson at Sherwin.
And then I guess I like to say Igot smart and decided to go on
the contracting side of it, butkind of in a unique way, I was
recruited away from SherwinWilliams by uh a painting
(02:28):
franchise organization and spenttwo years there training their
new franchise owners on how torun and operate painting
businesses, um, followingsystems and processes and things
of the sort.
And so that's how I really gotmore introduced to the
contracting end of it.
And then 10 and a half years agostarted Paint Easy and uh we are
(02:54):
in the franchising space aswell.
And and so yeah, it's uh it'sit's been uh an interesting
ride, you know, uh starting offwith the Sherm Williams side of
things and learning the businessmore from the technical
standpoint of codings, and thenover the last you know 12 years
doing learning it more from thecontracting side of it,
(03:16):
following a lot of systems andprocesses.
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
That's awesome.
Yeah, that's that's a prettycool story.
So you've seen the industry froma lot of different perspectives.
You started out in ShurWilliams, ran Shuri Williams
store as a manager, um, workedfor another franchise or and
then now you have your ownfranchise where you've, I'm
sure, dug into the details ofeach location at some point or
(03:40):
another.
And I think you guys, you have auh, if I'm not mistaken, uh at
least a couple dozen, maybe afew dozen uh locations across
the U.S.
at this point, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Yeah, we have we currently have 76 locations with
62 owners across the country andaverage growing three to four
new locations monthly.
And so yeah, we're able toreally analyze um the business
from various marketplaces asalso with various uh backgrounds
(04:11):
coming into the industry and andreally helping them learn the
paint business from a technicalstandpoint as well.
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
That's awesome.
So I'm you know, this this year,uh I'm just curious that this uh
this has come up a lot.
2025 has seen has been a littlebit of a weird year for a lot of
folks.
And since you've been in theindustry for so long and also
have so many locationsthroughout the United States,
have you seen that kind of playout as well or have you been
(04:43):
seeing something different?
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
Yeah, it it has been a weird year.
Um, I guess we would attributeit, we feel, to you know, kind
of the catch-up of normalizationfrom after the COVID rush,
things of that.
We we feel like it's just moreof a normalization of what
marketplace may look like.
Um, but there are certainmarketplaces.
(05:06):
Uh, we we have a number of areasof the country where we're
having record years.
We also have certain areas ofthe country that are down a
little bit this year, and sothere are certain marketplaces
that it's definitely been alittle bit more weird or
volatile this year than whatwe've seen in years past as
well.
SPEAKER_02 (05:25):
Yeah, I think that's a good point.
I think we kind of got you know,2020 through 2023 kind of got
spoiled a little bit in thepainting industry, where we kind
of expected it just to come soeasy.
And it was great a great time,it's just like crazy on on how
easy it was to get work, and Ithink now we're just coming back
(05:48):
down to reality and uh and alsothere was probably some demand
that was pulled forward, youknow, folks that did all the
work that they needed to do, sothey kind of knocked it all out
in in those years, and then nowthere's just less, less they did
all the things.
Um there's probably some ofthat, but also you know, just um
(06:09):
there's just not that as much uhI guess ex funds going around
for that sort of those sort ofprojects.
So I think you know it's goingback to normal, like you said.
So I think that's a a goodanalysis.
Um cool.
Well, tell me more about uhgetting started in the like
(06:31):
franchising painting.
Like why did you start at thefranchise level instead of
starting your own location?
What attracted you to starting afranchise?
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
Yeah, I I I think the biggest thing was
recognizing how importantsystems and processes are to um
the the development of abusiness.
Um I I saw it from the otherhand, working with Shern
Williams and working, you know,at the the when I finally left
there, I had roughly a book ofbusiness of 350 to 400
(07:04):
contractors that uh I workedwith, you know, day in and day
out and and whatnot.
And and there was a couple ofthings that I individual
struggled keeping themselvesconsistently busy.
Um, and then they also struggledwith either cash flow management
or just overall profitabilitywithin their business.
(07:27):
And what I found from thefranchising side of things that
following a standard set ofsystems and processes and really
just um systemizing the businessas much as you possibly can
creates a lot betteropportunities for consistency
and also for profitabilitywithin a business.
And so uh that's what reallyattracted me more to the
(07:49):
franchising route and what'sreally kept me into the
franchising space is just seeingum where you know we we actually
take individuals who knownothing about painting, how to
paint walls or you know, paint ahouse for that, you know, better
or worse, and we teach them allthe the technical parts or the
(08:11):
fundamental parts of painting,but really look at it from
following systems and processesand more from a business owner
mindset versus a tradespersonmindset.
And really what that does is itallows us to scale the business
typically quicker than a lot ofother um companies and also
(08:32):
shows for more profitabilitytypically as well.
SPEAKER_02 (08:36):
Yeah.
So it sounds like you guys havethe playbooks to run a painting
business.
You get a business owner, uh,you train them up on the basics,
give them the playbooks on howto how to run the business, and
that allows them to grow to growthe business a lot more quickly
than they would have, you know,on the on their own terms,
(08:57):
basically.
Correct.
Awesome.
Um so what do you what do youthink like uh could you kind of
I know you said you had 76locations, right?
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Yes, that's correct.
SPEAKER_02 (09:12):
All right.
And what is the like the averagesize of those locations?
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
Yeah, so last year average revenue was 742, and uh
out of that 742, we had anaverage net margin of 24.4.
Um and and and typically whatwill happen is that we were able
to grow that top line revenueover time as the business owners
(09:40):
become more and more uhcomfortable with the business
and learning those systems andprocesses.
And so that will typically growin time as well.
SPEAKER_02 (09:49):
Yeah.
Well, that net margin that'sreally impressive because 24
point 24 percent on a a businessthat's doing 400, 500,000.
We we usually recommend 30%ideally, but if you're doing
that on average, I mean that'sreally impressive 24% net
profit.
So that definitely speaks a lotto whatever you're teaching them
(10:12):
over there uh at Paint Easy interms of how to how to run a
business because that's a reallyoutstanding net profit.
Um and that's the average.
So I'm assuming you definitelyhave friends that go way above
that as well.
Um what are the what are the thekey things do you think that a
(10:34):
painting business needs to do toensure that they are profitable?
SPEAKER_00 (10:38):
Yeah, I I I think one, knowing your numbers and
and uh also when knowing yournumbers, making sure that
everything's being tracked.
Having a good accountant orbookkeeper is really, really
important.
And then, you know, whether it'sQuickBooks or whatever software
you're utilizing, being able toanalyze those reports and know
(10:59):
those numbers month in and monthout, and evaluating uh we're
really big, we job cost everysingle job that we do.
And so we're able to go througheach and every project from a
coaching perspective andevaluate where were their wins,
where were the losses, and wheredo we need to make adjustments?
And it's through those little,and and a lot of times it's not
(11:21):
even huge adjustments that needto be made, it's a lot of times
micro adjustments of you know,yeah, how how do we tighten up a
number on marketing, or how dowe tighten up a mark uh a number
on how much material costs thatwe're using on a project and
things of those nature.
And and and by doing that reallyhelps aid in profitability and
(11:44):
helping grow the business, youknow, uh long term that way as
well.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Yeah, uh job costing definitely I think is a big one
too, like uh getting thatinstant feedback, especially you
doing it in a timely manner,like as you go or at the end of
the week or something, so youcan get that instant feedback uh
you know to to make changes orto see what went wrong and make
(12:10):
those fixes.
Um do you guys use the employeemodel or the subcontractor
model?
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
So we start with a subcontractor model and evolve
to employees over time.
Uh so we would considerourselves a hybrid model, um,
but do start with the businesson a submodel for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (12:32):
Okay.
Um folks that use the submodel,uh the one of the things that we
hear is you know, um, and I'mjust curious on how since you
guys are big into systems andand handling things from a
systemized perspective when youhave a sub that is like, oh,
(12:56):
this isn't enough money you knowfor this job.
You know, how do you kind ofhandle pushback when you're when
you're getting or how do youapproach negotiating with
subcontractors to ensure thatyou know it's a win-win?
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
Yeah.
I I think that's an excellentquestion.
And that's something that weactually train on a lot is the
fact of not every job is goingto be a perfect job for each and
every contractor that youpresent a work order to as well.
And so not having hurt feelingsif a contractor turns you down
for the rate that you'reoffering to pay or that's in the
(13:37):
budget to pay, I think it'simportant to know.
I think it's also important uhfrom a subcontracting
perspective, building a Rolodexof subs that fit the various
niches of the business that youservice and really building
relationships with those subs towhere you can have those honest
communications with them.
(13:57):
Um I I like to kind of explainit this way.
I I like sports and baseball isone that's easy for me to kind
of uh give the analogy of thatthere's gonna be some jobs that
are gonna be more like a singlewhere it's you know, it's a
one-day job.
We're kind of making wages foreverybody for the day and
nothing to get too excitedabout.
(14:19):
But then there's gonna be thoseother jobs that are home runs,
grand slams that, you know,maybe it's a 10-day project and
you know, they're getting paid15 grand or something like that
for their the labor portion ofthat project, and it ends up
being, you know, a home run forthat contractor as well.
And then there's gonna be somedoubles and triples that are
sprinkled in there as well.
(14:40):
And so when I talk to these,when we talk to contractors,
helping them understand that notevery job is gonna be created
equal.
There's going to be some thatyou probably don't like, and
there's gonna be some thatyou're gonna love, and then
there's gonna be some in themiddle.
And let's look at it from aportfolio standpoint.
Can we keep you busy week in,week out?
Can we keep you um where we'vegot consistent cash flow coming
(15:03):
in, things of that nature aswell.
And really just trying to createa win-win partnership with these
subs, um, you know, subcontractrelationships for me is one of
the most critical components tothe business.
And if you treat subs as thatthey're just the labor, then
that's what you're gonna get outof it.
You're gonna get people who wantto negotiate you like crazy,
(15:26):
they're going to be ruthless,um, they're gonna try to cut
corners, they're you know, notgonna treat your clientele well.
But if you're trying to create areal win-win partnership with
these individuals and and andhelping these individuals build
their business by paying themfair market values and things of
that nature as well, then youcan really build a business off
(15:48):
of it as well.
SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
Yeah, make that makes a lot of sense.
So basically, uh keep it if theyif they are upset or not as
happy with one particular jobpay, you know, try to help them
see the bigger picture and thatthis is a longer-term
relationship that you're hopingto build, and you know, some
sometimes there's slimmermargins on on some jobs,
(16:15):
especially I'm assuming ifthere's smaller, because
sometimes there's not muchbudget.
Uh, and but then there's gonnabe you know those other jobs
that if you can count on them,you know, that you will
definitely keep them on the topof the list for those larger
jobs as well.
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Yeah, and I think I would also say that uh just
knowing those contractors thatyou work with too and
understanding their businessesas well is important because you
know, if I have if I send acompany or a work order that has
a really high overhead, but it'sa project that's two days for
two guys, and and and they'relooking at it from, well, I've
(16:56):
got five guys I need to keep fedand uh you know, keep their
overhead costs, then sometimeswhen you send them those
projects, they're trying to findways to make it fit for five
guys or make it so that it's aperfect fit for their business
as well.
And we just have to understand,too, that every job's not going
(17:16):
to be perfect for that sub aswell.
And that's where we can presenta work order to a sub, but not
have hurt feelings if they turnit down or want to negotiate.
But from a business ownerstandpoint, too, we have to
understand our budget as welland be willing to move on from a
subcontractor if it's not theright fit for both of us, too.
SPEAKER_02 (17:37):
Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense.
Cool.
Well you you mentioned that youknow you start with subs, and
I'm assuming that's because it'susually easier to get started
with subcontractors.
What at what point do yourecommend folks to switch to
employees and and I guess whyswitch to employees?
(17:58):
So I guess a two-part questionthere.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Yeah.
So for us, the biggest thingwith switching to employees
comes that we get more brandrecognition.
We can get vans on the road withour you know, logos and things
of that nature.
And so it just starts expandingour marketing footprint.
We have franchisees that uh Ihave a couple of franchisees
that have been with us nineyears now that are still 100%
(18:23):
subcontractor based becausethey're just comfortable with
it.
And, you know, they've theyhaven't felt the need to have
those employee painters or needto have that additional
marketing presence fromadditional vans or trucks on the
roads and things of that nature.
But what we look at from, youknow, why make a switch from sub
to employee is um once once westart filling the calendar, you
(18:49):
know, the calendar isconsistently full and you you
could keep one, two, three crewsconsistently busy, then why not
bring one of those in-house orbring two of them in-house and
start getting some of thatbranding recognition?
Um, the other thing that doeshappen with bring them in-house
is it's easier to get adoptionof systems and processes when
(19:11):
they're employee-based.
Now, not saying thatsubcontractors, I uh some of the
best painters I've ever workedwith have been subcontractors
and they've treated our clientsamazing and take a lot of pride
in their work, but there's alsothe other hand of
subcontracting.
You're gonna get some that maybedon't do those things as well.
(19:32):
And so I think a lot of timessubcontracting gets kind of a
mixed review or sometimes anegative um context to it
because they're not having subsfollow some type of system or
process and also not evaluatingfrom a quality control
standpoint, and it puts them ina tough situation.
(19:53):
Um for me, uh the marginshonestly are very similar
between um an employee crew andsubcontracting crew.
It's just really what do youfeel more confident with as your
go-to-market strategy, is kindof the way we evaluate it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:10):
That makes sense.
Um I'm I'm really curious.
So you're you're working with 76locations throughout the the US.
What are the top, you know, thetop 10 most successful
franchisees that you've workedwith?
What are they doing?
What are the the the big driversfrom what from what you can tell
(20:35):
to their success?
What are they doing that'sreally moving the needle and
helping them you know growprofitably and and just have a
killer business?
What do you think those thingsare?
What's like the recipe tosuccess for those folks?
SPEAKER_00 (20:49):
Yeah, I I I love this question.
And I think there's a few thingsthat really contribute to it, I
think.
First off, is continuing toeducate yourself daily.
Um, I I've been formally in thepaint industry 25 years now, and
there's still things that I canlearn daily, and and no
different for the franchiseowners or any business owner for
(21:10):
that matter.
There's something that we canlearn new daily.
And so, do we continue toreinvest in learning and growth?
And I find too that learning islike compounding interest.
The more learning you do, themore compounding effect that you
start seeing on your business aswell.
And so continuing to reinvest inyourself and your team, I think
(21:32):
is really important for uh thosewho are successful.
That that's one of the thingsthat we've seen is those who
continue to educate themselvesand invest in their team from
that standpoint do see moresuccess.
Then next to that would becontinuing to market, whether
it's slow, busy, summer, winter,continuing to market
(21:54):
consistently throughout the yearis also really important for the
growth and evolution of thebusiness as well.
Um, we we see many painters oreven a lot of other trades for
that matter, that they'll investwhen it's slow, but they won't
keep investing in marketing whenthey're busy as well.
(22:16):
And that's how you can stay moreconsistently busy and also
growing your book of business isby continuing to uh invest in
marketing.
And then lastly, I findrelationships within every
market.
Business is build onrelationships, not transactions.
And the more relationshipsyou're willing to build in your
(22:38):
in your marketplace, um, thelarger your build business is
gonna build.
Um, if you're looking at justtransactions, and you know, as
soon as your tell lights aroundthe corner from that house and
you're done painting it, andthat's that's the end of it,
then you're probably alwaysgonna be chasing that next
dollar versus really building abusiness as well.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Okay, so it sounds like three things.
One, can continue to educateyourself and your team on a
daily basis.
There's always something tolearn.
And learning compounds itself.
And then the second one iscontinue to market even when you
feel like you have enough workor when it when the work is
plentiful, you know, in the inthe busy season, continue to
(23:23):
keep the marketing machinegoing.
And then three, continue tobuild relationships.
You know, don't uh always lookfor opportunities in your
community to build thoserelationships, because that's
probably you know, it might notbe a short-term strategy, but uh
most definitely is at least uh along-term strategy to be well
(23:45):
known and connected in thecommunity.
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
Yeah, and the thing I would add to that is it's more
expensive to acquire a newclient versus to keep the client
you have in the first place.
And and and so continue tonurture the relationships if if
that if it just feels like atransaction with the client that
you work with, then that's allit's going to be.
And we get this time and timeagain.
(24:09):
Um, we we go through a nine-stepsales and and kind of a
discovery phase as we're talkingthrough with a client.
And many times we'll ask them ifthey've worked with a
professional painter in thepast, and they'll say they had.
And and the follow-up questionis, was it a good experience?
And you know, tell us more aboutthat.
And many times it was a goodexperience, and then we'll ask
(24:30):
them why are they not workingwith them this time?
And it's just like I can'tremember who they were.
And so, you know, they lost thatopportunity to continue working
with that client because theydidn't nurture a relationship,
it was nothing but atransaction.
And so if we're looking atbusiness as just simply
transactions, then we're gonnabe continuing to chase that
(24:51):
dollar versus if we continue tonurture those clients into more
of a relationship basis versus atransaction, then you have the
ability to really build thatbusiness long term.
SPEAKER_02 (25:04):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Keep in touch with your currentcustomers, the or historical
customers, so that they rememberyou next time they have to
paint.
Uh, that's a like you said,super inexpensive way to uh you
know to get to get repeat work.
Because I mean, sending out amonthly newsletter via email is
(25:27):
super cheap.
Even even direct mail, I mean,if you're doing direct quarterly
direct mail, that's like a buck,a buck and a half per customer.
But if they're gonna spend five,ten thousand dollars with you in
a couple years, you know,spending fifteen dollars on them
might be worth it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
Yeah, I would I would totally agree.
Like I said, it it's a lot morecostly to acquire a new client
than it is to keep one, and andso that's what I always urge
anybody uh to do is continue tonurture that relationship, keep
that relationship, and who knowswhere that relationship will
take you, who they'll refer youto, not not just additionally
the work that you would haveworking for them, but who could
(26:09):
they refer you to as well.
SPEAKER_02 (26:12):
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
Cool.
Um so we talked about the thethe top performers that you've
seen, uh the different locationsacross the US.
I just I like to go inverse aswell sometimes.
(26:32):
What the folks that fail, whatare they what are they doing or
not doing that, you know, youjust when you see that happen,
you're just like, I don't thinkthis is gonna work out.
I know you know, you seesomething over and over and you
kind of get a sixth sense forthese things.
Oh what do you what are like thethe things that when you see a
painting business owner do,you're like, I really don't
(26:54):
think that this is gonna workout with uh this franchisee.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
Yeah, so I'm gonna speak to part of this from a
franchisee perspective, and thenpart of this from my time with
Sheran Williams and just workingwith subcontractors for so many
years as well.
I I think the first one, it goesback to again, do we know our
numbers?
Um, are we are we actuallymaking sure we're profitable on
projects?
And then do we have the cashflow that's backing it up?
(27:21):
That that that's anotherchallenge.
Um so we can train till we'reblue in the face on how to sell
a project profitably and and howto make it make sense for
everybody.
But if they don't sell that workand actually don't get cash flow
through through the business,then you still have fixed
overhead expenses that you'regonna have month in and month
(27:43):
out.
And so there's that balance ofI've got to have cash flow
coming through the businessmonthly.
And then am I watching and andand fine-tuning that um business
that's coming in to make surewe're profitable?
That's one area that I findthose who struggle the most is
one, that they're strugglingwith just cash flow period.
They're not getting enough jobsrunning through the business
(28:06):
monthly to keep where they areoffsetting overhead expenses and
things needed to actually growthe business.
And then, second to it, are theymaking them you know the minor
tweaks or things along the wayto ensure profitability too to
continue to grow the business?
Um, and then uh kind of on thethe inverse of what I said on
(28:28):
the the those who are growing,um, it's those who don't
continue to learn and those whodon't continue to uh follow
systems and processes, our ourfranchise owners that struggle
every time we start stripping itback and find that it's they're
they're missing some of thesystems and processes or they're
(28:48):
just trying to skip steps.
Um you know, we as humans alwayswant to find the path of least
resistance.
And it's no different withinfranchising, even though we have
a playbook and all the systemsand processes, we still have
franchisees that want to try toshortchange just a process to
make it simpler, to get frompoint A to Z faster, things of
(29:10):
that nature.
And it's when they skip steps inbetween that's every time that's
where we're gonna find thatthere's a problem as well.
And so staying dedicated towhatever your systems and
processes or systems and systemsand processes for the business
would be the first thing.
And then continuing to learn andgrow, you know, listen listening
(29:33):
to podcasts like this, but uhother podcasts as well, or
networking with othercontractors who are successful
in your area and finding ways tomake improvements, um,
continuing to learn yourindustry, learn your craft.
How do you become I you know, II always say a rising tide lifts
all boats.
We've heard that for forever.
(29:54):
I want every contractor to besuccessful in our marketplace
and charge.
Charging rates that they can beprofitable on and also have good
solid cash flow because it helpseverybody.
Um helps everybody in themarketplace, and and and so um
continue to network, meet othercontractors who are successful
(30:15):
in your marketplace, and then uhmake sure you're profitable.
Those are the things that I seethat are usually the
shortcomings of most contractorsthat are struggling.
SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
That yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And uh I noticed you mentionedcash flow, as as the saying
goes, cash is king.
You know, if you don't have cashin your business, you're not
gonna be in business for verylong.
Uh because that's that's the onething you need to continue to
operate, is you need cash.
Uh so what do you what are youknow obviously being profitable
(30:49):
and and bidding jobs isimportant to ensure you have
cash because profits equalscash.
Are there any other things thatyou you try to train the
franchisees on to make sure thatthey have proper cash flow?
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Uh yeah, I mean it goes back to marketing
consistently.
Um continually marketing so thatthe leads and jobs come in
regularly helps ensure there'scash flow.
Um, but also continuing to buildthose relationships in your
marketplace will also aid in theability to keep cash churning
(31:25):
throughout the business.
And then for us, we'veespecially, you know, you you
mentioned kind of a uniquemarket right now in 2025.
Having various services, I, youknow, as much as I wish that we
could say we just do interiorpainting or we just do exterior
painting and you really nichedown, we we're finding offering
(31:46):
many services that are reallytied to painting has been
important for us to stayconsistently busy and growing as
well.
Um, because it has been a littlebit of a unique year where
certain markets maybe interiorpaintings down this year.
And so we're focusing on garagefloor coatings or decks and
fences or exteriors, or maybeit's just drywall repairs or you
(32:09):
know, popcorn ceiling removalsor whatever it might be, you
know, uh finding other you uhoffshoots of just painting to
make sure that you can stayconsistently turning cash
through the business has been uhan important thing, um, at least
for us.
SPEAKER_02 (32:26):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Um so keeping marketing turnedon and uh and offering different
services, you know, to as likeI'm assuming either upsells or
or just main offer.
Do you guys usually do upsellsto those other services or to
like make the overall job morevaluable?
(32:48):
Or are you also marketing on thefront end for like those kind of
offshoots as well?
SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
So both, definitely marketing for the the different
various services as well.
Um, like garage floor coatingsfor one.
That's one that willindependently market and
generate leads just for thatniche.
But we'll also use that whenwe're doing an interior exterior
project, also asking have theycan been considering a garage
(33:16):
floor, you know, or does yourgarage floor need updating and
things of that nature?
Um, are an easy add-on to whatwe're already doing there for
that client as well.
And so, yeah, there's bothupsells or cross-selling of
different services and also justmarketing them independently.
Um and I think that's importanttoo.
(33:39):
It goes again back to I hate toharp on just systems and
processes, but having a sellsystem that you follow that
allows you to ask for additionalitems within a house or
commercial building or whateverit might be, um, cross-selling
(33:59):
different services, I think, arealso important to building that
ticket to where you're you knowhelping add profitability or
adding more cash to the businessas well.
Um, those come into play forsure.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
That's awesome.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Cool.
Well, Jay, I really appreciateyour time today.
You've been super generous, andI think listeners have gotten a
ton of value from some of thethings that you've thrown out
there in terms of like what whatmakes a great painting business
from what you've seen workingwith dozens and dozens of other
(34:33):
painting businesses across thethe US and and then what doesn't
work, which you need to avoid.
Um, do you have any finalthoughts or asks of the
audience?
SPEAKER_00 (34:44):
Really just uh continue to build your business,
have fun with it.
I I think that's the one thingtoo.
A lot of times business ownersget so stressed out about
building their business and justhave fun with building your
business, gamify will have funand and and and start building
those systems and processes thatreally build the business that
(35:05):
they're they're looking tocreate for themselves and their
families and whatnot.
Um, and then just ask, see seekother mentorship in your
marketplace.
Um, there's every market in thecountry, there's going to be
contractors that are willing toshare best practices or willing
to help out and things of thatnature.
And so seek other mentors um inyour in your marketplace and and
(35:27):
and create other you knownetworking relationships that
way that are that are good forfor you and maybe other
clientele and whatnot as well.
SPEAKER_02 (35:38):
Awesome.
Awesome.
I really appreciate your timetoday, Jay.
And for the audience, with that,we will see you next week.
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast.
The mission of this podcast issimple: to help you navigate the
financial and tax aspects ofstarting, running, and scaling a
professional painting business.
From the brushes and ladders tothe spreadsheets and balance
sheets, we've got you covered.
But before we dive in, a quickword of caution.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
financial and tax information,nothing you hear on this podcast
(00:22):
should be considered asfinancial advice, specifically
for you or your business.
We're here to share generalknowledge and experiences, not
to replace the tailored adviceyou get from a professional
financial advisor or taxconsultant.
We strongly recommend youseeking individualized advice
before making any significantfinancial decision.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the
show where painting contractorslearn how to boost profits, cut
taxes, and build a business thatworks for them.
I'm your host, Daniel Honan,CPA, former painting business
owner, and your guide tomastering the numbers that drive
success.
So let's dive in and make yourbusiness more profitable one
episode at a time.
I'm super excited today to haveJay Mason out of Utah.
(01:02):
How's it going, Jay?
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Doing wonderful.
Thank you for having me, Daniel.
SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Absolutely.
No, I'm super excited to getinto things.
I know you've you've built apretty uh formidable business.
So um, could you kind of givefolks an understanding of where
where you got started, how yougot started in the painting
industry, and what have beensome major milestones along the
way?
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Yeah, no, thank you.
Uh uh I have kind of ainteresting story of how I got
involved in the paint industry.
My my dad worked 46 years forSherman Williams, and so I grew
up around paint stores and alsopainting contractors.
Uh, my dad, as kids, wouldinvolve us with overnight sales
(01:44):
trips.
And I remember probably being 10to 12 years of age, walking job
sites with a hard hat on, andyou know, just seeing kind of
how painters did things.
And uh, I guess, you know, itwas impressionable upon myself.
And so at 16, I begged for a jobto work with Sherwin Williams as
well.
And so I spent my first 13 yearslearning the industry from the
(02:06):
the Sherman Williams angle.
And so I worked in at, you know,as a store manager and then last
four years as an outsidesalesperson at Sherwin.
And then I guess I like to say Igot smart and decided to go on
the contracting side of it, butkind of in a unique way, I was
recruited away from SherwinWilliams by uh a painting
(02:28):
franchise organization and spenttwo years there training their
new franchise owners on how torun and operate painting
businesses, um, followingsystems and processes and things
of the sort.
And so that's how I really gotmore introduced to the
contracting end of it.
And then 10 and a half years agostarted Paint Easy and uh we are
(02:54):
in the franchising space aswell.
And and so yeah, it's uh it'sit's been uh an interesting
ride, you know, uh starting offwith the Sherm Williams side of
things and learning the businessmore from the technical
standpoint of codings, and thenover the last you know 12 years
doing learning it more from thecontracting side of it,
(03:16):
following a lot of systems andprocesses.
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
That's awesome.
Yeah, that's that's a prettycool story.
So you've seen the industry froma lot of different perspectives.
You started out in ShurWilliams, ran Shuri Williams
store as a manager, um, workedfor another franchise or and
then now you have your ownfranchise where you've, I'm
sure, dug into the details ofeach location at some point or
(03:40):
another.
And I think you guys, you have auh, if I'm not mistaken, uh at
least a couple dozen, maybe afew dozen uh locations across
the U.S.
at this point, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Yeah, we have we currently have 76 locations with
62 owners across the country andaverage growing three to four
new locations monthly.
And so yeah, we're able toreally analyze um the business
from various marketplaces asalso with various uh backgrounds
(04:11):
coming into the industry and andreally helping them learn the
paint business from a technicalstandpoint as well.
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
That's awesome.
So I'm you know, this this year,uh I'm just curious that this uh
this has come up a lot.
2025 has seen has been a littlebit of a weird year for a lot of
folks.
And since you've been in theindustry for so long and also
have so many locationsthroughout the United States,
have you seen that kind of playout as well or have you been
(04:43):
seeing something different?
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
Yeah, it it has been a weird year.
Um, I guess we would attributeit, we feel, to you know, kind
of the catch-up of normalizationfrom after the COVID rush,
things of that.
We we feel like it's just moreof a normalization of what
marketplace may look like.
Um, but there are certainmarketplaces.
(05:06):
Uh, we we have a number of areasof the country where we're
having record years.
We also have certain areas ofthe country that are down a
little bit this year, and sothere are certain marketplaces
that it's definitely been alittle bit more weird or
volatile this year than whatwe've seen in years past as
well.
SPEAKER_02 (05:25):
Yeah, I think that's a good point.
I think we kind of got you know,2020 through 2023 kind of got
spoiled a little bit in thepainting industry, where we kind
of expected it just to come soeasy.
And it was great a great time,it's just like crazy on on how
easy it was to get work, and Ithink now we're just coming back
(05:48):
down to reality and uh and alsothere was probably some demand
that was pulled forward, youknow, folks that did all the
work that they needed to do, sothey kind of knocked it all out
in in those years, and then nowthere's just less, less they did
all the things.
Um there's probably some ofthat, but also you know, just um
(06:09):
there's just not that as much uhI guess ex funds going around
for that sort of those sort ofprojects.
So I think you know it's goingback to normal, like you said.
So I think that's a a goodanalysis.
Um cool.
Well, tell me more about uhgetting started in the like
(06:31):
franchising painting.
Like why did you start at thefranchise level instead of
starting your own location?
What attracted you to starting afranchise?
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
Yeah, I I I think the biggest thing was
recognizing how importantsystems and processes are to um
the the development of abusiness.
Um I I saw it from the otherhand, working with Shern
Williams and working, you know,at the the when I finally left
there, I had roughly a book ofbusiness of 350 to 400
(07:04):
contractors that uh I workedwith, you know, day in and day
out and and whatnot.
And and there was a couple ofthings that I individual
struggled keeping themselvesconsistently busy.
Um, and then they also struggledwith either cash flow management
or just overall profitabilitywithin their business.
(07:27):
And what I found from thefranchising side of things that
following a standard set ofsystems and processes and really
just um systemizing the businessas much as you possibly can
creates a lot betteropportunities for consistency
and also for profitabilitywithin a business.
And so uh that's what reallyattracted me more to the
(07:49):
franchising route and what'sreally kept me into the
franchising space is just seeingum where you know we we actually
take individuals who knownothing about painting, how to
paint walls or you know, paint ahouse for that, you know, better
or worse, and we teach them allthe the technical parts or the
(08:11):
fundamental parts of painting,but really look at it from
following systems and processesand more from a business owner
mindset versus a tradespersonmindset.
And really what that does is itallows us to scale the business
typically quicker than a lot ofother um companies and also
(08:32):
shows for more profitabilitytypically as well.
SPEAKER_02 (08:36):
Yeah.
So it sounds like you guys havethe playbooks to run a painting
business.
You get a business owner, uh,you train them up on the basics,
give them the playbooks on howto how to run the business, and
that allows them to grow to growthe business a lot more quickly
than they would have, you know,on the on their own terms,
(08:57):
basically.
Correct.
Awesome.
Um so what do you what do youthink like uh could you kind of
I know you said you had 76locations, right?
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Yes, that's correct.
SPEAKER_02 (09:12):
All right.
And what is the like the averagesize of those locations?
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
Yeah, so last year average revenue was 742, and uh
out of that 742, we had anaverage net margin of 24.4.
Um and and and typically whatwill happen is that we were able
to grow that top line revenueover time as the business owners
(09:40):
become more and more uhcomfortable with the business
and learning those systems andprocesses.
And so that will typically growin time as well.
SPEAKER_02 (09:49):
Yeah.
Well, that net margin that'sreally impressive because 24
point 24 percent on a a businessthat's doing 400, 500,000.
We we usually recommend 30%ideally, but if you're doing
that on average, I mean that'sreally impressive 24% net
profit.
So that definitely speaks a lotto whatever you're teaching them
(10:12):
over there uh at Paint Easy interms of how to how to run a
business because that's a reallyoutstanding net profit.
Um and that's the average.
So I'm assuming you definitelyhave friends that go way above
that as well.
Um what are the what are the thekey things do you think that a
(10:34):
painting business needs to do toensure that they are profitable?
SPEAKER_00 (10:38):
Yeah, I I I think one, knowing your numbers and
and uh also when knowing yournumbers, making sure that
everything's being tracked.
Having a good accountant orbookkeeper is really, really
important.
And then, you know, whether it'sQuickBooks or whatever software
you're utilizing, being able toanalyze those reports and know
(10:59):
those numbers month in and monthout, and evaluating uh we're
really big, we job cost everysingle job that we do.
And so we're able to go througheach and every project from a
coaching perspective andevaluate where were their wins,
where were the losses, and wheredo we need to make adjustments?
And it's through those little,and and a lot of times it's not
(11:21):
even huge adjustments that needto be made, it's a lot of times
micro adjustments of you know,yeah, how how do we tighten up a
number on marketing, or how dowe tighten up a mark uh a number
on how much material costs thatwe're using on a project and
things of those nature.
And and and by doing that reallyhelps aid in profitability and
(11:44):
helping grow the business, youknow, uh long term that way as
well.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Yeah, uh job costing definitely I think is a big one
too, like uh getting thatinstant feedback, especially you
doing it in a timely manner,like as you go or at the end of
the week or something, so youcan get that instant feedback uh
you know to to make changes orto see what went wrong and make
(12:10):
those fixes.
Um do you guys use the employeemodel or the subcontractor
model?
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
So we start with a subcontractor model and evolve
to employees over time.
Uh so we would considerourselves a hybrid model, um,
but do start with the businesson a submodel for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (12:32):
Okay.
Um folks that use the submodel,uh the one of the things that we
hear is you know, um, and I'mjust curious on how since you
guys are big into systems andand handling things from a
systemized perspective when youhave a sub that is like, oh,
(12:56):
this isn't enough money you knowfor this job.
You know, how do you kind ofhandle pushback when you're when
you're getting or how do youapproach negotiating with
subcontractors to ensure thatyou know it's a win-win?
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
Yeah.
I I think that's an excellentquestion.
And that's something that weactually train on a lot is the
fact of not every job is goingto be a perfect job for each and
every contractor that youpresent a work order to as well.
And so not having hurt feelingsif a contractor turns you down
for the rate that you'reoffering to pay or that's in the
(13:37):
budget to pay, I think it'simportant to know.
I think it's also important uhfrom a subcontracting
perspective, building a Rolodexof subs that fit the various
niches of the business that youservice and really building
relationships with those subs towhere you can have those honest
communications with them.
(13:57):
Um I I like to kind of explainit this way.
I I like sports and baseball isone that's easy for me to kind
of uh give the analogy of thatthere's gonna be some jobs that
are gonna be more like a singlewhere it's you know, it's a
one-day job.
We're kind of making wages foreverybody for the day and
nothing to get too excitedabout.
(14:19):
But then there's gonna be thoseother jobs that are home runs,
grand slams that, you know,maybe it's a 10-day project and
you know, they're getting paid15 grand or something like that
for their the labor portion ofthat project, and it ends up
being, you know, a home run forthat contractor as well.
And then there's gonna be somedoubles and triples that are
sprinkled in there as well.
(14:40):
And so when I talk to these,when we talk to contractors,
helping them understand that notevery job is gonna be created
equal.
There's going to be some thatyou probably don't like, and
there's gonna be some thatyou're gonna love, and then
there's gonna be some in themiddle.
And let's look at it from aportfolio standpoint.
Can we keep you busy week in,week out?
Can we keep you um where we'vegot consistent cash flow coming
(15:03):
in, things of that nature aswell.
And really just trying to createa win-win partnership with these
subs, um, you know, subcontractrelationships for me is one of
the most critical components tothe business.
And if you treat subs as thatthey're just the labor, then
that's what you're gonna get outof it.
You're gonna get people who wantto negotiate you like crazy,
(15:26):
they're going to be ruthless,um, they're gonna try to cut
corners, they're you know, notgonna treat your clientele well.
But if you're trying to create areal win-win partnership with
these individuals and and andhelping these individuals build
their business by paying themfair market values and things of
that nature as well, then youcan really build a business off
(15:48):
of it as well.
SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
Yeah, make that makes a lot of sense.
So basically, uh keep it if theyif they are upset or not as
happy with one particular jobpay, you know, try to help them
see the bigger picture and thatthis is a longer-term
relationship that you're hopingto build, and you know, some
sometimes there's slimmermargins on on some jobs,
(16:15):
especially I'm assuming ifthere's smaller, because
sometimes there's not muchbudget.
Uh, and but then there's gonnabe you know those other jobs
that if you can count on them,you know, that you will
definitely keep them on the topof the list for those larger
jobs as well.
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Yeah, and I think I would also say that uh just
knowing those contractors thatyou work with too and
understanding their businessesas well is important because you
know, if I have if I send acompany or a work order that has
a really high overhead, but it'sa project that's two days for
two guys, and and and they'relooking at it from, well, I've
(16:56):
got five guys I need to keep fedand uh you know, keep their
overhead costs, then sometimeswhen you send them those
projects, they're trying to findways to make it fit for five
guys or make it so that it's aperfect fit for their business
as well.
And we just have to understand,too, that every job's not going
(17:16):
to be perfect for that sub aswell.
And that's where we can presenta work order to a sub, but not
have hurt feelings if they turnit down or want to negotiate.
But from a business ownerstandpoint, too, we have to
understand our budget as welland be willing to move on from a
subcontractor if it's not theright fit for both of us, too.
SPEAKER_02 (17:37):
Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense.
Cool.
Well you you mentioned that youknow you start with subs, and
I'm assuming that's because it'susually easier to get started
with subcontractors.
What at what point do yourecommend folks to switch to
employees and and I guess whyswitch to employees?
(17:58):
So I guess a two-part questionthere.
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Yeah.
So for us, the biggest thingwith switching to employees
comes that we get more brandrecognition.
We can get vans on the road withour you know, logos and things
of that nature.
And so it just starts expandingour marketing footprint.
We have franchisees that uh Ihave a couple of franchisees
that have been with us nineyears now that are still 100%
(18:23):
subcontractor based becausethey're just comfortable with
it.
And, you know, they've theyhaven't felt the need to have
those employee painters or needto have that additional
marketing presence fromadditional vans or trucks on the
roads and things of that nature.
But what we look at from, youknow, why make a switch from sub
to employee is um once once westart filling the calendar, you
(18:49):
know, the calendar isconsistently full and you you
could keep one, two, three crewsconsistently busy, then why not
bring one of those in-house orbring two of them in-house and
start getting some of thatbranding recognition?
Um, the other thing that doeshappen with bring them in-house
is it's easier to get adoptionof systems and processes when
(19:11):
they're employee-based.
Now, not saying thatsubcontractors, I uh some of the
best painters I've ever workedwith have been subcontractors
and they've treated our clientsamazing and take a lot of pride
in their work, but there's alsothe other hand of
subcontracting.
You're gonna get some that maybedon't do those things as well.
(19:32):
And so I think a lot of timessubcontracting gets kind of a
mixed review or sometimes anegative um context to it
because they're not having subsfollow some type of system or
process and also not evaluatingfrom a quality control
standpoint, and it puts them ina tough situation.
(19:53):
Um for me, uh the marginshonestly are very similar
between um an employee crew andsubcontracting crew.
It's just really what do youfeel more confident with as your
go-to-market strategy, is kindof the way we evaluate it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:10):
That makes sense.
Um I'm I'm really curious.
So you're you're working with 76locations throughout the the US.
What are the top, you know, thetop 10 most successful
franchisees that you've workedwith?
What are they doing?
What are the the the big driversfrom what from what you can tell
(20:35):
to their success?
What are they doing that'sreally moving the needle and
helping them you know growprofitably and and just have a
killer business?
What do you think those thingsare?
What's like the recipe tosuccess for those folks?
SPEAKER_00 (20:49):
Yeah, I I I love this question.
And I think there's a few thingsthat really contribute to it, I
think.
First off, is continuing toeducate yourself daily.
Um, I I've been formally in thepaint industry 25 years now, and
there's still things that I canlearn daily, and and no
different for the franchiseowners or any business owner for
(21:10):
that matter.
There's something that we canlearn new daily.
And so, do we continue toreinvest in learning and growth?
And I find too that learning islike compounding interest.
The more learning you do, themore compounding effect that you
start seeing on your business aswell.
And so continuing to reinvest inyourself and your team, I think
(21:32):
is really important for uh thosewho are successful.
That that's one of the thingsthat we've seen is those who
continue to educate themselvesand invest in their team from
that standpoint do see moresuccess.
Then next to that would becontinuing to market, whether
it's slow, busy, summer, winter,continuing to market
(21:54):
consistently throughout the yearis also really important for the
growth and evolution of thebusiness as well.
Um, we we see many painters oreven a lot of other trades for
that matter, that they'll investwhen it's slow, but they won't
keep investing in marketing whenthey're busy as well.
(22:16):
And that's how you can stay moreconsistently busy and also
growing your book of business isby continuing to uh invest in
marketing.
And then lastly, I findrelationships within every
market.
Business is build onrelationships, not transactions.
And the more relationshipsyou're willing to build in your
(22:38):
in your marketplace, um, thelarger your build business is
gonna build.
Um, if you're looking at justtransactions, and you know, as
soon as your tell lights aroundthe corner from that house and
you're done painting it, andthat's that's the end of it,
then you're probably alwaysgonna be chasing that next
dollar versus really building abusiness as well.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Okay, so it sounds like three things.
One, can continue to educateyourself and your team on a
daily basis.
There's always something tolearn.
And learning compounds itself.
And then the second one iscontinue to market even when you
feel like you have enough workor when it when the work is
plentiful, you know, in the inthe busy season, continue to
(23:23):
keep the marketing machinegoing.
And then three, continue tobuild relationships.
You know, don't uh always lookfor opportunities in your
community to build thoserelationships, because that's
probably you know, it might notbe a short-term strategy, but uh
most definitely is at least uh along-term strategy to be well
(23:45):
known and connected in thecommunity.
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
Yeah, and the thing I would add to that is it's more
expensive to acquire a newclient versus to keep the client
you have in the first place.
And and and so continue tonurture the relationships if if
that if it just feels like atransaction with the client that
you work with, then that's allit's going to be.
And we get this time and timeagain.
(24:09):
Um, we we go through a nine-stepsales and and kind of a
discovery phase as we're talkingthrough with a client.
And many times we'll ask them ifthey've worked with a
professional painter in thepast, and they'll say they had.
And and the follow-up questionis, was it a good experience?
And you know, tell us more aboutthat.
And many times it was a goodexperience, and then we'll ask
(24:30):
them why are they not workingwith them this time?
And it's just like I can'tremember who they were.
And so, you know, they lost thatopportunity to continue working
with that client because theydidn't nurture a relationship,
it was nothing but atransaction.
And so if we're looking atbusiness as just simply
transactions, then we're gonnabe continuing to chase that
(24:51):
dollar versus if we continue tonurture those clients into more
of a relationship basis versus atransaction, then you have the
ability to really build thatbusiness long term.
SPEAKER_02 (25:04):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Keep in touch with your currentcustomers, the or historical
customers, so that they rememberyou next time they have to
paint.
Uh, that's a like you said,super inexpensive way to uh you
know to get to get repeat work.
Because I mean, sending out amonthly newsletter via email is
(25:27):
super cheap.
Even even direct mail, I mean,if you're doing direct quarterly
direct mail, that's like a buck,a buck and a half per customer.
But if they're gonna spend five,ten thousand dollars with you in
a couple years, you know,spending fifteen dollars on them
might be worth it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
Yeah, I would I would totally agree.
Like I said, it it's a lot morecostly to acquire a new client
than it is to keep one, and andso that's what I always urge
anybody uh to do is continue tonurture that relationship, keep
that relationship, and who knowswhere that relationship will
take you, who they'll refer youto, not not just additionally
the work that you would haveworking for them, but who could
(26:09):
they refer you to as well.
SPEAKER_02 (26:12):
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
Cool.
Um so we talked about the thethe top performers that you've
seen, uh the different locationsacross the US.
I just I like to go inverse aswell sometimes.
(26:32):
What the folks that fail, whatare they what are they doing or
not doing that, you know, youjust when you see that happen,
you're just like, I don't thinkthis is gonna work out.
I know you know, you seesomething over and over and you
kind of get a sixth sense forthese things.
Oh what do you what are like thethe things that when you see a
painting business owner do,you're like, I really don't
(26:54):
think that this is gonna workout with uh this franchisee.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
Yeah, so I'm gonna speak to part of this from a
franchisee perspective, and thenpart of this from my time with
Sheran Williams and just workingwith subcontractors for so many
years as well.
I I think the first one, it goesback to again, do we know our
numbers?
Um, are we are we actuallymaking sure we're profitable on
projects?
And then do we have the cashflow that's backing it up?
(27:21):
That that that's anotherchallenge.
Um so we can train till we'reblue in the face on how to sell
a project profitably and and howto make it make sense for
everybody.
But if they don't sell that workand actually don't get cash flow
through through the business,then you still have fixed
overhead expenses that you'regonna have month in and month
(27:43):
out.
And so there's that balance ofI've got to have cash flow
coming through the businessmonthly.
And then am I watching and andand fine-tuning that um business
that's coming in to make surewe're profitable?
That's one area that I findthose who struggle the most is
one, that they're strugglingwith just cash flow period.
They're not getting enough jobsrunning through the business
(28:06):
monthly to keep where they areoffsetting overhead expenses and
things needed to actually growthe business.
And then, second to it, are theymaking them you know the minor
tweaks or things along the wayto ensure profitability too to
continue to grow the business?
Um, and then uh kind of on thethe inverse of what I said on
(28:28):
the the those who are growing,um, it's those who don't
continue to learn and those whodon't continue to uh follow
systems and processes, our ourfranchise owners that struggle
every time we start stripping itback and find that it's they're
they're missing some of thesystems and processes or they're
(28:48):
just trying to skip steps.
Um you know, we as humans alwayswant to find the path of least
resistance.
And it's no different withinfranchising, even though we have
a playbook and all the systemsand processes, we still have
franchisees that want to try toshortchange just a process to
make it simpler, to get frompoint A to Z faster, things of
(29:10):
that nature.
And it's when they skip steps inbetween that's every time that's
where we're gonna find thatthere's a problem as well.
And so staying dedicated towhatever your systems and
processes or systems and systemsand processes for the business
would be the first thing.
And then continuing to learn andgrow, you know, listen listening
(29:33):
to podcasts like this, but uhother podcasts as well, or
networking with othercontractors who are successful
in your area and finding ways tomake improvements, um,
continuing to learn yourindustry, learn your craft.
How do you become I you know, II always say a rising tide lifts
all boats.
We've heard that for forever.
(29:54):
I want every contractor to besuccessful in our marketplace
and charge.
Charging rates that they can beprofitable on and also have good
solid cash flow because it helpseverybody.
Um helps everybody in themarketplace, and and and so um
continue to network, meet othercontractors who are successful
(30:15):
in your marketplace, and then uhmake sure you're profitable.
Those are the things that I seethat are usually the
shortcomings of most contractorsthat are struggling.
SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
That yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And uh I noticed you mentionedcash flow, as as the saying
goes, cash is king.
You know, if you don't have cashin your business, you're not
gonna be in business for verylong.
Uh because that's that's the onething you need to continue to
operate, is you need cash.
Uh so what do you what are youknow obviously being profitable
(30:49):
and and bidding jobs isimportant to ensure you have
cash because profits equalscash.
Are there any other things thatyou you try to train the
franchisees on to make sure thatthey have proper cash flow?
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Uh yeah, I mean it goes back to marketing
consistently.
Um continually marketing so thatthe leads and jobs come in
regularly helps ensure there'scash flow.
Um, but also continuing to buildthose relationships in your
marketplace will also aid in theability to keep cash churning
(31:25):
throughout the business.
And then for us, we'veespecially, you know, you you
mentioned kind of a uniquemarket right now in 2025.
Having various services, I, youknow, as much as I wish that we
could say we just do interiorpainting or we just do exterior
painting and you really nichedown, we we're finding offering
(31:46):
many services that are reallytied to painting has been
important for us to stayconsistently busy and growing as
well.
Um, because it has been a littlebit of a unique year where
certain markets maybe interiorpaintings down this year.
And so we're focusing on garagefloor coatings or decks and
fences or exteriors, or maybeit's just drywall repairs or you
(32:09):
know, popcorn ceiling removalsor whatever it might be, you
know, uh finding other you uhoffshoots of just painting to
make sure that you can stayconsistently turning cash
through the business has been uhan important thing, um, at least
for us.
SPEAKER_02 (32:26):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Um so keeping marketing turnedon and uh and offering different
services, you know, to as likeI'm assuming either upsells or
or just main offer.
Do you guys usually do upsellsto those other services or to
like make the overall job morevaluable?
(32:48):
Or are you also marketing on thefront end for like those kind of
offshoots as well?
SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
So both, definitely marketing for the the different
various services as well.
Um, like garage floor coatingsfor one.
That's one that willindependently market and
generate leads just for thatniche.
But we'll also use that whenwe're doing an interior exterior
project, also asking have theycan been considering a garage
(33:16):
floor, you know, or does yourgarage floor need updating and
things of that nature?
Um, are an easy add-on to whatwe're already doing there for
that client as well.
And so, yeah, there's bothupsells or cross-selling of
different services and also justmarketing them independently.
Um and I think that's importanttoo.
(33:39):
It goes again back to I hate toharp on just systems and
processes, but having a sellsystem that you follow that
allows you to ask for additionalitems within a house or
commercial building or whateverit might be, um, cross-selling
(33:59):
different services, I think, arealso important to building that
ticket to where you're you knowhelping add profitability or
adding more cash to the businessas well.
Um, those come into play forsure.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
That's awesome.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Cool.
Well, Jay, I really appreciateyour time today.
You've been super generous, andI think listeners have gotten a
ton of value from some of thethings that you've thrown out
there in terms of like what whatmakes a great painting business
from what you've seen workingwith dozens and dozens of other
(34:33):
painting businesses across thethe US and and then what doesn't
work, which you need to avoid.
Um, do you have any finalthoughts or asks of the
audience?
SPEAKER_00 (34:44):
Really just uh continue to build your business,
have fun with it.
I I think that's the one thingtoo.
A lot of times business ownersget so stressed out about
building their business and justhave fun with building your
business, gamify will have funand and and and start building
those systems and processes thatreally build the business that
(35:05):
they're they're looking tocreate for themselves and their
families and whatnot.
Um, and then just ask, see seekother mentorship in your
marketplace.
Um, there's every market in thecountry, there's going to be
contractors that are willing toshare best practices or willing
to help out and things of thatnature.
And so seek other mentors um inyour in your marketplace and and
(35:27):
and create other you knownetworking relationships that
way that are that are good forfor you and maybe other
clientele and whatnot as well.
SPEAKER_02 (35:38):
Awesome.
Awesome.
I really appreciate your timetoday, Jay.
And for the audience, with that,we will see you next week.
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