Avatar: The Way of Water (2022) - REVISITED

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A gaming detour. A bold new audiobook format. And then a plunge into the oceanic heart of Avatar: The Way of Water that even a skeptical co-host didn’t expect to love. We start with Oblivion’s sprawling quest design and the surprising charm of getting lost without markers, then pivot to Audible’s full-cast Harry Potter experiment—layered narration, ambient sound, and voices that feel like theater without sacrificing storytelling. That production craft becomes our springboard to Pandora, where performance capture turns pixels into people and water into memory.

Once we hit the reefs, we get personal. We talk about what makes this sequel feel richer: a family on the run, new biomes that force growth, and a community whose bodies and culture have evolved for the sea. Quaritch’s return as a recombinant lands like wicked irony—becoming what he hates to destroy it—and Kiri’s mystery hums in the background, a soulful knot tied by Sigourney Weaver’s uncanny performance. We dig into Spider’s controversial choices, Neytiri’s razor-edged grief, and the moral weight of the tulkun: a people with philosophy and song, set against human whaling that extracts Amrita with chilling efficiency. The effect isn’t just visual spectacle; it’s worldbuilding with ethics, family, and cost.

We don’t shy away from the hard hits. Neteyam’s death, the suffocating tension aboard a sinking ship, and that scream of loss—all of it reminds us why this story lingers after the credits. We also peek at canon comics like The High Ground, how they frame the one-year gap, and why the film’s more grounded path was the right call. Whether you’re here for the tech, the tulkun, or the tangled loyalties, this conversation surfaces the reasons The Way of Water converts skeptics and rewards rewatchers.

If this ride stirred something, follow the show, share with a friend who loves Pandora, and drop a five-star review so others can find us. Then tell us: did Spider make the right call?

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Geekritique (Dakota):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBwciIqOoHwIx_uXtYTSEbA

Alien (1979) Explained | Timeline, Canon, and Lore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9nmyTTlMvo

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
The way of water has no beginning and no end.
And neither, it seems, does thispodcast.
Uh welcome to episode 140 ofProject Ecology.
Uh I am one half of your hosttoday.
We usually have three hosts, buttoday only half of us are here.
Or two-thirds of us are here, Ishould say.

(00:20):
Yeah.
I'm one half of your host,Dakota, and I'm joined as always
with Rich, who's always confusedby math, but missing our boy,
Anthony.

SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
Uh hopefully you're having a good time.
We'll see you soon, man.

SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
Next week, buddy, you better be here.
Um, because I'm running out ofideas about how to run this
thing.
I'm running right into theground.
We were covering something todaythat we actually covered a
couple years ago.
So this is our first time inProject Ecology history that
we've gone back to a title asthe main topic of our discussion
today.
Uh so but it's a movie I love.

(00:52):
I'm hoping to have a really nicediscussion.
Rich, this is your first timechecking this out.
Uh, and I think last week wasyour first time watching Avatar.
So I'm excited to hear what youthink.
Before we jump into any of thatthough, what have you been up to
this past week?
Anything cool?

SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
Uh just uh diving headfirst into uh Cyrodil once
again.
So the world of uh Oblivion.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Oblivion.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17):
I uh so it's so weird because I I still and this
time I I knew better, but Iremember the first time playing
it.
I became the archmage of the uhof the mages guild before I
stepped into one oblivion gate.
And then I stepped foot into oneoblivion gate, and I called my

(01:40):
friend and I said, Frank, whatis this?
He's like, What do you mean?
Like he he goes, You're what?
And he comes over and he's like,You're the ma you're the archma
how did you do that withoutdoing any of this, which is the
beauty of the game, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
Like Yeah, I love it.
It's such a good game.

SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
And I then sold it and uh rebought it.
Like basically the OblivionGates it's so you know my and I
realized what my problem withthe game was, uh is that you
know you have a quest foreverything.
You have quest markers, right?
The Oblivion Gates, the premiseis that you have to find the
stone, right?

(02:18):
But the the the inside of thegates are a different realm, and
they're m pretty massive.
Like they're they're very likethe it's not a a small scope, at
least they do a good jobvisually to make it feel large.
Uh it's dark, it's dr it'sdownright frightening.
The monsters you face or thedemons are frightening.

(02:41):
And there's no quest.
Right?
There's no quest marker.
One of them had these threetowers, and I had to get to the
top of one of them, and Iaccidentally stumbled upon a
lever that then apparentlychanged the the place of where
the bridges were meeting of thetowers, so then I had to go to

(03:02):
three levels down and one to goup.

SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
It changed the dynamics of the game for you in
a way that it was no longerenjoyable.
Like you you were built or youbuilt this uh understanding with
the game, this repertoire thatwas total totally shifted as
soon as you entered the OblivionGates, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
Yeah, yeah.
So I, you know, then I boughtthe game of the year edition.
Like I I basically could go backand forth on this thing.
So this is probably like myfourth or something purchase of
Oblivion.

SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
But I uh uh do you how how do how are you in terms
of like do you prefer Oblivionor Skyrim?
For me, for me, I am more I Ithink I've probably played
Skyrim more at this point, butin terms of nostalgia, I think
Oblivion just kind of just hitsdifferent for me, and I would go

(03:49):
with that, and I think thesoundtrack is perhaps a little
bit more invigorating.
I don't know what I don't knowwhat to say, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
Well I do I really uh I mean I love Skyrim.
I I I don't think I was reallyready for Oblivion, but when
Skyrim came out, I was ready forSkyrim.
I remember I think I asked forit for Christmas.
Like Lauren, my wife got it forme.
Uh she also got me a bottle ofJohnny Walker Blue and a uh

(04:18):
remote a wand that acted as aremote control for TV.
Which sounds really cool untilyou have to go like you have to
flick your wrist up 17 times toraise the volume, and then
you're like uh you're just gonnause the remote, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
Like this is this was fun for a day, but um just
going in the shelf, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (04:37):
But that game, I remember that was you know, my f
I I was teaching, I didn't havea kid yet.
It was Christmas, I got thatgame, and I had two weeks, and I
think it like there was ablizzard that that year, so I
was like trapped inside, like Icouldn't go outside.
My friend, I enjoyed Skyrim somuch that I I don't think Red

(05:00):
Dead Red Red Dead Redemption 2,I was talking about many times
on this podcast, is one of myfavorite games.
Because of the emotional highsand lows I think it takes me
through.
I just love Skyrim.
It's just I I get giddy aboutgoing around.
I love I love the memes.
I don't know if you've seenthese videos of there's this

(05:22):
young lady I've seen who goesaround just speaking Skyrim
dialogue, like in Polish.

SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
I have.
And I feel like that's that'ssomething that's uh I feel like
that's something that peoplehave been doing for a while.
Well, I'm behind on stuff.
Slightly boomer here, but I uhWell what was it?
There was like uh some I forgetlike there's like quotes like
someone shot my leg or like mykneecap.

SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
The arrow through the kneecap was a big uh thing
for a while.
Or like the mud crabs orsomething like that.
Yeah.
So it's so I mean I love it, butI I am what's really crazy about
Oblivion is dude, there's somemissions or some quests that I
remember every beat of thatquest.

(06:07):
Wow.
And then there are others thatI'm like, what did I did this?
And it's like so annoying, and Ican't re I don't even remember
how I possibly got through it.
So uh it's been it's been kindof fun, uh, to be honest with
you.
My even my wife sat down andlike she admired the graphics,
and you know, she has no ideawhat it being a 2006 game

(06:30):
remastered.
She just said it looked reallynice.
Uh and uh Patrick Stewart,right?
The only issue, I'll let I'llleave you with this, is that I
uh I really rushed through thecreation suite.
I I just didn't want to to spendthe time on it for some reason.
So this character only vaguely,very I wouldn't even you'd have

(06:50):
to be really far away and likedrunk at night to to say that's
rich.
Okay?
Like it's it's not it's not mybest.
It doesn't have mu they don'thave mutton chops.
So I kind of once I see that itdoesn't have mutton chops in a
game, I get really disheartenedand I try I I kind of lose all
all hope.
Every time my wife walks in andshe sees the character, she

(07:12):
goes, Hey, looks nothing likeyou.
Like, and I know that until Ibeat this, she's gonna keep
saying that.
And then uh the worst part isthat she has been seeing when I
save how many hours it says I'velogged, and like I only got it
like a week ago because I boughther Animal Crossing.
So I did like a double, I gother Animal Crossing for the
Switch, and I got myself this,and I've vlogged like 61 hours.

(07:35):
She's like, You've vlogged overtwo days straight of gaming?
I'm like, that's uh misleading.
I press pause and walk away.

SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
Yeah, if you press pause and use the bathroom, or
you know, I just didn't turn thething off last night.
See?
Yeah, no, I hear you.
So it's fun.
What have you been up to?
Uh not a whole lot.
I as of yesterday, the actuallythis is this is actually pretty
cool, and I've been very excitedabout it.
Um, and I've only been veryexcited about it for a very

(08:09):
short period of time, but likeas soon as I learned that it was
coming, I've been very on boardjust because of the idea of it.
So Audible started releasinglike a new version of the Harry
Potter Audiobooks, which is afull cast audiobook.
And you're shaking your head,but I'm gonna I'm just gonna big

(08:32):
thumbs down, Dak.
Big thumbs down.
Okay.
Well, um, I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_02 (08:38):
Wait, wait, why are you because Okay, because I
think that listeners to theshow, I'm not sure if you guys
know this, but the originalaudiobooks are produced by a
lovely gentleman named Jim Dale.
Uh, on behalf of originalAmerican original American
audiobooks.

SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
Yes.
And Jim Dale in the UK they haveStephen Fry.
Oh, do they?
Really?
This the Stephen Fry?
The Stephen Fry, yeah.
He's really good too.
So Jim I prefer Jim Dale over itbecause it's it's uh nostalgic
for me.
But yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 (09:12):
I Jim Dale's voice, man.
Like the voices he does.
He does all voices for all thecharacters, like he's got some
sort of little, you know,petunia.
And like some of them are noteven great, like the the women
sometimes are are justgod-awful.
But I I love if there's and youknow what it is, it's probably
just a nostalgia.
It's just like me saying, like,I'm never gonna like City Field,

(09:33):
you know, uh, because I loveChase Stadium so much.
So I'll probably listen to itand go, Oh, this is a great
experience.
But before so I'm being mean toyou here, but before even
listening to it, I'm just like,I love my Jim Dale.

SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
Like his No, and that I that's the thing, it'll
always be there.
Um, and I've I've listened tothe Jim Dale audiobooks multiple
times over throughout the years.
Um, it's you know, whenever I goon a road trip, those are the
go-to, you know, like I got a10-hour trip.
I can throw on one of thesebooks and be uh finished or
mostly finished with all ofthem, or like at least one of

(10:06):
them, you know.
But uh I I'm I got reallyexcited about it, not because of
who was in the cast, just butbut more because it wasn't an
audio drama.
I have I have an issue I I don'tdislike audio dramas where they
they you know like they addsound effects, they add uh
music, they you know, they kindof make it feel like a movie in

(10:28):
your mind.
But a lot of what I love aboutuh novels and audiobooks is
hearing the narration.
Um and most of Harry Potter islike so necessary for you to get
into the minds of the charactersthat narration is like the most
important person in the story,just because that's that's the
voice of you know the story,basically.

(10:51):
So I I I was always wary of theaudio drama aspect of it.
And what's cool about this isthat it's an audio book, you
know, they have a narrator, butthey have unique voices for
every character, so they haveactors for everyone.
There's there's over 200 actorsthat they've you know recorded.

(11:14):
Um, and so they've alreadyrecorded all seven books, and
they're gonna release them monthafter month.

SPEAKER_02 (11:20):
So you this is probably not the last time that
you've you think that uh you'veheard you you'll hear me talk
about this just because if acharacter is speaking, yeah, and
then then and then let's say thedialogue you know stops and it
says said Dursley.
They do it really well, right?

SPEAKER_01 (11:37):
And I I that's that's the one thing that I was
like, how are they gonna dothat?
Yeah, they so they actuallylayer on top of each other.
So sometimes you'll hear thenarrator like saying, you know,
the the Dursleys were getting uhlike making breakfast in the
morning.
So you hear like the the baconsizzling on the stove in the
background, you hear like anewspaper crumpling, uh, you'll

(11:58):
hear the grumblings of likeVernon Dursley and like uh
Dudley's running in thebackground saying something, and
then all of this is being saidwhile or all of this is being
done while the narrator issaying something.
And then like as the line comesup, they just say it out loud,
and the narrator just likeVernon said, you know, and it's
it's just like it's it's supersmooth.

(12:20):
I I'm I'm like really surprisedabout it.
Um there's only been a coupletimes where I'm just like I wish
the actor's voice line there wasjust a little higher because I I
kind of had a hard timeunderstanding what they were
saying, and that only happenedlike twice.
But um yeah, I've I've gottenreally used to it at this point,
and it's uh it's definitely afresh take, especially because
the narrator's a female voice.
Oh so it gives a different feelto it, yeah.

(12:44):
But no, it's it's it's afantastic uh piece of audio
engineering.
Like, I don't think I've everlistened to anything as high
production in terms of like anaudiobook ever, you know.
And I'm used to like Star Warsbooks always having like large
productions in terms of there'smusic and there's blaster fire
and there's the sound oflightsabers.

(13:06):
You have, you know, like thesound effects in this, but you
also have a full cast drama, youhave layered audio, you have
it's it's a it's a reallyimpressive thing.
I I I don't usually you knowlike recommend things super
lightly, um, but I'm really,really impressed with what they

(13:27):
did here.
And the fact that they have oneof these coming out every month
is also uh just just kind ofexciting, you know?
Just you may have swayed me,sir.
You may have swayed me.
At least to check it out, youknow.
If you have an extra credit onAudible or whatever, it's you're
not gonna put it to waste bygetting that uh for sure.
Like it's super solid.

SPEAKER_02 (13:46):
Yeah, speaking of swaying, the other thing that uh
swaying is the waves in the wayof water.

SPEAKER_01 (13:54):
What uh what a massive segue.
I love it, I love it.
The the waves are definitelyflowing, they're they're swaying
in the background.
Yeah, let's let's divert ourattention to Avatar.
Rich.
Alright, I guess I'll I'll justsay a little something.
Like if you hadn't w listened toif you hadn't listened to our

(14:16):
previous recording of uh The Wayof Water or our last podcast um
on Avatar, you may not realizethis, but Avatar The Way of
Water is probably my favoritemovie of the past ten years.
Um it's just it was probably youknow on par cinema-wise with uh
going to see Force Awakensagain.

(14:38):
Going into it, it necess itwasn't necessarily like that.
That level of hype going intothe Way of Water was not Force
Awakens level for me, but theactual experience of seeing this
in theater and then seeing itagain and again and again was on
par with the Force Awakensexperience with me.
So that's that's kind of whereI'm sitting at.
And I love this movie, and Ican't wait for the third movie.
Uh in a month, yeah, it's comingout next month.

(15:01):
So I'm I'm very excited aboutthat.
But Rich, this is your firsttime checking out this movie.
Reiterate your position cominginto it after having seen the
first movie, and explain ifthat's changed at all, or if you
enjoyed this more or less, andyou know w what do you have to
say?

SPEAKER_02 (15:21):
I I don't think I was all right, so I was kind of
non-plussed at the end of thefirst one.
I didn't think it was anythingsuper special.
At the same time, I didn't uhhave any problems with it.
I mean I did speak briefly tothe fact that my my wife uh
strongly uh some of the the thethemes, whatever, and and you

(15:46):
know, I I kinda I kind of sawsome of that, but not strong
enough to get me uh very riledup.
Uh but again, nothing thatreally overly wowed me.
I mean I will add, I mean Ithink I I mentioned this, but I
uh you know I didn't see it on abig screen, you know, I didn't
see it in 3D.
So that's a big part of it aswell.

(16:08):
You know, I know that thesemovies uh you know, and it's
timely.
Uh I'm I'm sure Dakota, youdidn't do this uh accidentally,
but you know, the next one'scoming out very soon, so now
like there is this momentumgoing into it, you know, where I
I have more vested interest init.
And and I will say I I reallydidn't I don't know, I was just

(16:31):
like I just watch what we'regonna watch, so I didn't
question watching it.
I didn't dread it.
The I think my my biggestproblem with it was uh it was
just the length.
Uh so I didn't go to the theaterto watch it.
I obviously I watched that athome and I, you know, tend to
just like binge things, but alsohave to go like clean the

(16:53):
barbecue for 45 minutes and comeback and then put it on.
Like I'm I will oddly watchthings in a disjointed manner
and the length of this moviejust uh and just kind of the way
my week flowed.
It I I I think it took me liketwo and a half to three days to
watch it.
Like I just kept I kept likebecause I like to when I'm

(17:14):
watching something for the show,especially, I like to be more
focused on it.
Uh Oblivion didn't help.
Like basically it's right.
If I'm gonna play my card put mycards on the table, everybody
out there, okay?
MLB The Show is a fantastic gameto play while you're watching
stuff.
I don't have the volume on, Idon't have to pay more.

(17:34):
It's mindless.
You know?
Yeah, it's just I just kind ofjust hit the button, hit the
ball, pitch.
It's pretty easy.
I play on the easiest of thegame.
Oblivion is not that game.
No.
And I was I was just I had topick and choose.
I I I tried I tried to do both,and I think my brain just went
nope.
And I and I had to stop.

(17:55):
So I uh it was the the lengthwas the only thing that I think
uh maybe kind of detracted, butthat's probably I'm gonna put
that on myself.

SPEAKER_01 (18:04):
So by the end of it, I'm it is like three hours
twenty minutes or something likethat.
It's it's a long film, it's notit's not not something to you
know gloss over.

SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
Go ahead.
But I um by the end of it, Iwanted more content, and I don't
think I could say that after thefirst one.

SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
Okay, all right.
So you got the bug by the end ofit.
You got you you were into thevibe of what was going on to a
point where you got so investedin the world while you were
watching it, you know, over thecourse of so many days,
basically you're waiting for aseason two, because that's kind
of how you binged it, right?
You you binged it kind of like aTV show.

SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
And it's just just like uh, you know, they follow
the path of uh William Shatner,and they follow the path of of
the young boy in Free Willy,right?
Because if you want audiences tolove you, you know what you
gotta do?
Or wait, even even uh DaveFaloney, even Dave Faloni was

(19:04):
like, you know what we need?
You know what this story needs?
It needs some whales.
It needs whales, ladies andgentlemen.
Once you put whales in a movie,nobody can be angry at it.
It's almost like just like youjust can't do it's so peaceful.

SPEAKER_01 (19:17):
No, it's like it becomes too peaceful, but you
get the people going when youhave a villain that's very
anti-whal.

SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
This guy, ladies and gents.
If you didn't listen to the lastepisode, and uh, I just want to
say there is this been thiscontinuing prank that's being
pulled on me that I'm told thatsomebody is dead.
You I mean, I ended last week'sepisode 100% convinced that I

(19:47):
was right and that SigurdneyWeaver's character was gonna
come back because I felt likeyou were indicating that
somebody would be back.
And little did I know that youreally laid the groundwork.
You were like, wow, what a greatvillain.
It would be so great if he couldcome back, wouldn't it?
And I'm like, there's no pathfor him to come back.

(20:07):
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
Little did I know that they wereengineering Navi uh, you know,
clones.
I mean, what would they call it?
Avatars, yeah.
What would they call it in umrecons.
Well, what would they call it inthe alien universe, though?
They're uh they're like thechildren, right?

SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
They're uh synthetics?
Synthetics, yeah.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so uh I guess the hybrid.
Yeah, it would it would be ahybrid novies, these because
they they uh implant theirgenetic memories and DNA into
the recombinant, you know,avatar.

SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
By the way, the level I I'm I'm just gonna kind
of playfully mention this,right?
Because like I'll look past it,right?
But it's just like like you'relike the the general is like
he's there and his crew, right?
They're so racist against theNavi that they'll become the
Navi to get rid of the Navi.

(21:06):
And it's like that kind of liketickles me a little bit, you
know.
Like right, it's like, man, Ihate those blue skinned guys.
You know what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna be like, and I know hedidn't want that, right?
But I'm gonna becomeblue-skinned, you know.
But even like the video wherehe's like, I'm making this
because the company made me makeit, because I might be dead one

(21:27):
day, but that's never gonnahappen.

SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
It's just like so.

SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
And even like So in the first Avatar movie, when
Jake Soly is first, you know,like discussing his trip uh into
like the the Navi sanctuary andin Home Tree and all that with
Quaric.
Quaric is like, you know, thisis great that we have someone on
the inside, and he goes, I wishwe had 10 more like you.

(21:53):
What happens?
Someone someone overheard himwhen he said that, or like he
just he put this program into,you know, like this is a great
idea.
We need more soldier avatarpeople.
Anyway, whatever the whateverthe logic here was, um, they
they they brought them back.
Uh you texted me and Anthony thethe moment like uh that that you

(22:17):
saw Koric on stream on on screenagain, and I was dying laughing.
I paused what I was watching.
I don't even remember what I waswatching, it's not important
anymore.
That was that made my week, sir.
I was so happy.

SPEAKER_02 (22:29):
I was like, because you know, I you know, like if
you guys don't know the the lorehere, they they've tricked me
with uh with Ripley a coupletimes.
You know, they just uh I thinkyou you uh you didn't you set me
up with uh with Bilbo overthere, uh Ash and his cash.
Oh yeah, I forgot about him.

(22:49):
You know, uh there were a coupleof retreads that you guys got me
on.
Basically, they're not lettingme go forward in anything, so
I'm just kind of going blind andI don't see this stuff coming.

SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
I just I it makes the show better, trust me.
It it's just it's it's a joy.
It's it's just one of thoseongoing things that like um but
you know what?
Most likely we won't see thisguy in the next one.
You know, I I doubt it.
I really doubt it.

SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
Yeah, yeah, no.
I don't think that in any way inthe blow-up series, the main
villain is gonna just disappear.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
I I heard I heard in the next movie it's all about
Carmelo Soprano.

SPEAKER_02 (23:30):
Somehow, somehow Corridge disappeared.
Like that they're just gonnabring Isaac uh what is his name,
Isaac, whatever, to uh to comein and say that line.

SPEAKER_01 (23:39):
Uh oh, um yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking
about.
So anyway, you you've watchedthe film now.
You've I'm assuming you watchedit one time.
Okay, so like you watched it andthen you put it on the
background.
Yeah.
Okay, I understand.
Yeah.
Did you like it more thanAvatar?
Like the first one?

SPEAKER_02 (24:00):
Or yeah, I mean, so again, I've I've I've watched a
lot of the content that we watchtogether or we speak we discuss.
I've watched it on my iPadnormally like probably two feet
from my face, like on my littlecoffee table.
This is one of the few thingsthat I've watched on the t on

(24:21):
the on my new on my TV.

SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
As as James Cameron would have won it.

SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
Yeah, and I I I mean I think I I yeah, it added to
it, I'm not gonna lie to you.
It it you know, I think that thevisuals are it's shocking how
they still really hold up.

SPEAKER_01 (24:37):
It it's I mean it's not it's it's only a couple
years old, this one.
This one came out in 2022.
So Oh that's so that's silly.

SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
Meanwhile, my wife and I were we're watching uh
I've I've I've I don't know if Itold you Forster and took a
rings of power, then uh thenthen Hobbit trilogy.
So yeah, the Hobbit trilogy islong, so we're we're finishing
it.
But she's sometimes she's justlike, What's with that?
You know, that looks soterrible.
And I and we I I'm like don'tforget that the Lord of the

(25:08):
Rings movies where I thinknothing really looks bad there
are 10 years older than thosemovies, right?
It's just like there was thatone, there was that like that
middle period where they weretrying to do stuff that looked
really bad.
But now this, you know, andthere's even been stuff that's
come out recently in the lastcouple of years since since this
movie came out, you know, MarvelProductions, where some of the I

(25:31):
mean, uh what's his name?
Heimdall Sun?
The the floating the floatinghead, you know, you know, thing
things like that.
So you know, that that's muchmore recent.

SPEAKER_01 (25:43):
So this is you know, I mean it's The Way of Water is
2022, so it's only three yearsold at this point.

SPEAKER_02 (25:49):
It it doesn't even feel it doesn't it doesn't feel
like an animated movie.

SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
No, and that's that's the magic of it.
Obviously, it is they arecapturing real actors.
Like, I don't know if you'veever if you've seen like the
behind the scenes of like howthis stuff is made.
It's not 100% I mean it is 100%computer graphics, but they have
actors doing everything, youknow, like how they act out mo

(26:16):
mocap type stuff, right?
It's a it's it's mocap, but it'salso like facial capture.
Um it it's it's actually it'sreally impressive what they are
capable of doing, and andnobody's really doing it like
Jim Cameron.
But um, and and that's actuallysomething that I'm excited about
too.
In a couple days, uh on DisneyPlus, they're releasing a I

(26:38):
don't know if it's both parts,but it's a two-part documentary
series called Fire and Water,the making of the Avatar movies.
And it's it it's like a behindthe it's a it's a long form
behind the scenes documentaryabout like how it's mostly like
the these movies wouldn't existif the actors didn't bring it to

(26:58):
life.
Like it's it's entirely theirexpressions that are being
translated onto the the screenin the in in the computer.
So I think that's pretty cool,and I'm excited about that.
Yeah, so that that's that'ssomething that uh I I find
really fascinating.
And and yeah, there's reallynothing ever that has looked
this good in terms of like thisis an animated movie.

(27:21):
This is an animated movie, likeit that it looks real, it looks
more real than real life, youknow.
Like it's that you the theamount of pores you see on these
people's faces is crazy.
Like, I don't know.
It's it's uh it's it it blows mymind.
Um so let's talk a little bitabout um Sagorney Weaver.
What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 (27:39):
I thought she was coming back, man.
Like for like for real for real,but then it's this she is in
this movie.
Yeah, she's she kind of comesback as like a like a kind of a
she does she came back as aforce ghost almost.

SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
She does come back as a force ghost.

SPEAKER_02 (27:55):
I I wanna say I I don't know, man.
Like we might need to play thisback because I think that I,
independent of any kind ofresearch, I think I might have
said something like Force Ghost.
You mean in the last episode?
Yeah, I think that was I becauseI said that Riley was coming
back.
Oh, okay.
I think I said it was like uh Ithought I said that it was some
sort of connection with the uhwith the with Enya.

(28:18):
No, it's uh Ewa.

SPEAKER_01 (28:24):
Sorry.
Um, you're good.
Uh so you may be surprised tonote that Sigourney Weaver has a
much larger role in this moviethan you're giving her credit
for.

SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
Well, the her her daughter.
Yeah.
So I don't underst did Imisunderstand it?
Like, it's like a a virgin birthor a virgin pregnancy?

SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
That's that's what they're saying.
Uh, but but what I mean isliterally Sigorny Weaver is the
voice and actor for the daughteras well.

SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
I didn't I promise you.
I didn't know that.
I promise you got oh no! Wait aminute, for real?
Yes.
Ah, I had uh see, this is likethe when I don't get to do my
research.
I had no clue.
You're asking me this, and loyallisteners, I I panicked a little
bit.
I said, did I did I forgetsomething else?

SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Like, is there something No, no, no, no.
I mean it it's it she did thatgood of a job where but it's
it's funny when you look at umI'll send you a clip after this.
It's a it's a little clip liketrailer thing from the making of
this movie, and it's you know,uh the actor who played Jake
Soley next to um the actor whoplays Kitty, which is Segourney

(29:41):
Weaver, and they're talkingabout you know, like it's a
scene where like she's kind oflamenting like that, you know,
she's kind of she feels out ofplace, she feels she feels the
heart of Awa, and like Jake'strying to like comfort her.
It's it's weird because it'sit's literally uh Sigourney
Weaver sitting there, it's inplace of her.
So And she's playing a14-year-old girl.

(30:02):
So I think that that is really,and once you know that and go
back to this, you'll be like,oh, oh, I hear it.
So that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
I had I had no clue.
No, no foggy notion that it washer.
That's awesome.
So she does come back.
So look at that.
She's more than a force ghost.

SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Look at this.
It's she in force ghost form andin uh strange uh virgin birth
daughter form.
I just need her to hold abasketball in the next movie and
uh everything will cometogether.
You know, it's that is apossibility.
You know, there's definitely apossibility that uh a basketball

(30:43):
can be, you know, procured,considering uh we did see
avatars playing basketball inthe first movie.
Uh right when Jake Soli like youknow first like jumps into his
avatar system, he runs outsideand there's like people playing
a game of basketball.
So anyway, it's possible, butyeah, good times.
So what did you let's go back toQuaric and the other Marines

(31:07):
when when he first wakes up andhe's just like Lyle?
You know, I I laugh at that lineevery time.
I think that that that is sofunny.
But uh again, he's such a goodvillain, you know.
You love to hate him, or youhate to love him is one I think
it's it's actually more for me.
I hate to love this guy becauseI do love him.

(31:27):
Like I don't want him to goaway.
Like he's just so bad or so goodat being bad that yeah, I don't
know.

SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
Like the like the the fact that he you know he
hates them, but he would agreeto become one like and like very
much flirting with what Jigsuliuh did himself, right?
Which was become one of them,and he eventually does that, but
still has this like the lack ofrealization, or uh there's

(31:53):
there's never that light bulbmoment for him, right?
Like he's like, Yeah, I'm inthis body, but I'm here to do a
job, and he's just sticking tothat plan.

SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
So I want to talk about uh the children uh in the
movie.
We we we mentioned Kiri briefly,how she's played by Sigorni
Weaver, but we have a coupleother kids.
We have Nateam, who's the olderson, the the firstborn to uh
Jake and Atiri.
We have Loak, um, who kind ofbecomes the central character

(32:25):
that this movie revolves around,and kind of a breakout role for
the actor.
Uh we have the younger daughter,I think she's like maybe nine or
ten years old in terms of likeavatar years or not Navi years,
uh named Took.
And then there's good oldSpider, whom people either love

(32:47):
or hate.
And I understand on a firstviewing, a lot of people are
just like, I can't stand thatguy because of what he does at
the end, but you know, it's justpart of the story.
What are your thoughts onSpider?
Because I have Hate him.
I did you hate him from thebeginning?

SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
Or No, no, no, I didn't hate him.
I mean, I I hated I I grew tohate him because of his There's
nothing Okay.
There's almost like i if youbetray your people, your tribe,
your group, and you stick withit, like, you know, you go full
Benedict Arnold, there's almostlike a little bit of respect.
Alright.
You switch sides and you stuckit to it, you know, like Count

(33:24):
Dooku, you know, like he leftthe order and boom, he falls in
line with a Sith, you know, thethere the we find you know, he
changes.
I I hate these uh, you know, ohI aligned with them for the
right reason.

SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
I didn't think they were gonna be this bad, you
know, like kind of Well, I mean,for in terms of that, I don't
think he really had a choice.
Like, in term like, you know, itwas either he gets his brain
melted by the lab uh people orhe goes with him to find Jake
Soly and his family, you know?
Like he didn't think that theywere actually gonna find them,

(33:57):
but you know.
But uh so d d when he washelping Quarridge, did you think
that he was helping Quarich ordid you think you know he was
just along for the ride?
I thought he was helpingQuarich.
Oh, okay.
I don't think you're supposed tothink that.

SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
But that's interesting.
I I I know that you're s there'ssupposed to be force, but I felt
like there is a little bit ofthis kind of slight undertone
that he's with his He's with hisdad.
Yeah, you know, like and thatthat changed kind of everything
and his allegiances overall.

SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
So there's something interesting.
Um, if you ever give this moviea rewatch, note every
interaction that Spider has withNateri.
She hates him.

SPEAKER_02 (34:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (34:43):
She absolutely hates him.
And um, you know, she shementions like she shouldn't he
shouldn't be uh he should bewith their kind, not our kind,
blah blah blah.
Um she doesn't believe that theyshould be interacting.
And I think part of it isbecause of you know his his
parents, you know, he wasQuarch's son.
So but at the same time, you youhave on on the opposite end of

(35:05):
that, you have Spider who has ahell a very healthy fear of
Naytiri.
Um like there's there's a coupletimes where like he's watching
the footage of Naytiri shootdown his father uh in that mech
suit.
Um and you can see like the fearin his eyes, like, oh wow, this
is like terrifying.
And then later he revisits thatfear when they're on the the

(35:26):
sinking boat, and he sees likethe the the killer instinct that
Naytiri is, you know, just she'sjust like screaming at the loss
of her son, obviously.
But she's you know in like ablood rage, you know, and he
realizes he's on the choppingblock if if this person gets to
me.
And then Naytiri actually doesget him and is wholly willing to

(35:47):
sacrifice a spider.
Like she she there was nothingholding her back.
Um, and I think the fact thatQuarich stops her.
I think that is the instant thatSpider's just like, he saved my
life.
This is a person, even thoughhe's a crappy dad, he still
cared enough to stop whateverwas happening, you know.

(36:10):
Like he he gave up on hismission briefly to save the life
of my of me, basically.
And I think that for me is thereason he decides at the end to
be like, I can't let him die.
Because that's the first time aparent figure treated him like a
parent, basically.
Fair.
I mean I mean again, it's it'sit's all part of the story, and

(36:34):
and I uh obviously it's stillkind of it's it's very sus that
he goes, saves Koric, and thengoes back to the the Sully
family.
Um and then you know, Jake evenyou know says son for a son, and
they take him in in replacementof Mateo, you know, and I think
uh it's definitely gonna comeup, you know?
It's definitely gonna come up inthe next one.

SPEAKER_02 (36:55):
Oh, I mean, you know, I mean I've only been a
parent for 11 years, but I'mpretty sure that's not how it
goes, you know, like it's it'sjust swap.
Yeah, I'll just take that one.

SPEAKER_01 (37:06):
Replace my other one.
I don't I don't know.
This this uh this smallpale-skinned one.
I what I will say, um, there'ssome scenes that I have no idea
how they did it.
Because they have a real lifehuman actor playing alongside
nine feet tall blue people.
We know that there are bluepeople behind or there there are

(37:26):
actors behind the blue people,but they're not actually nine
feet tall.
So there are instances wherethey're like interacting with
this human character in waysthat don't that like I cannot
wrap my mind around.
There's a there's a point whereSpider helps bring the body of
Nateam, the oldest son, out ofthe water alongside Loak and

(37:47):
Jake Sully.
Like they're pulling him out ofthe water and it's seamless.
Like you don't you see himsupporting the weight of this
nine-foot thing, but we knowthat nine-foot thing isn't
actually nine feet, and it'sjust it blows my mind.
If you ever like go back to thatscene at the end and and just
like look at how the physicalinteractions with Spider are

(38:11):
with the the rest of the cast ofthis movie, it blows my mind.
I don't know how they managedit, but they it's it's literal
cinema cinema magic, and it itthat for me is just like the
pinnacle of uh like CGI.
I don't know.
I again I keep saying I don'tknow how they did it.
I almost don't want to know howthey did it because it's so
unbelievable.
You're gonna not want to watchthose behind the scenes then,

(38:33):
man.
Uh I know, I know.
I you you gotta watch it for me.

SPEAKER_02 (38:38):
You know, I think that you uh you know, I've had a
lot of sanctions placed on me.
And I and I think for your ownbest interest.
How about you not watch thebehind the scenes until you see
the movie so that the magic'snot ruined?

SPEAKER_01 (38:55):
Well, I mean I think I think the the two-part series
that they're coming out with isbased on mostly the way of
water.

SPEAKER_02 (39:03):
Yeah, but you're still gonna see like how how
it's made.

SPEAKER_01 (39:06):
Oh yeah, I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna look behind the
curtain.
Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (39:09):
Then then that means you know, you're gonna go see
the next one.
Maybe you're gonna be like, hey,how you know, trying to figure
out the you're you're gonna loseyourself in the uh the logistics
instead of losing yourself inthe story.

SPEAKER_01 (39:21):
I I will definitely be seeing it more than once.
So I'm I'm sure I I will be lostin the story.

SPEAKER_02 (39:26):
And the the Fire Nation's coming, right?

SPEAKER_01 (39:28):
Fire Nation's coming.
Fire Nation and Air Nation.
You know, like crazy.
The the literal air nomads andfire nation's.

SPEAKER_02 (39:36):
What is the subtitle of the next one?

SPEAKER_01 (39:39):
Uh Fire and Ash.

SPEAKER_02 (39:42):
I did uh the uh the poster looks very intimidating.
Uh at this uh you know, the Iwent to the movies this weekend,
so it's uh it's building.

SPEAKER_01 (39:51):
It's it's it's building.
Uh what's crazy is that thesemovies like are juggernauts in
the theater.
Like they hold up like they anavatar movie comes and like
cinema as a whole just likerises up.
It's just like it it it it's theboat that raises all ships, you
know.
It's it's really it's crazy.
It's like a it's a literal wave.

SPEAKER_02 (40:12):
I have no idea that this movie came out in 2000.
Would you say 22?
Yeah, it's like shortly afterthe COVID restriction, too.
Three years ago, I have norecollection of this happening.
Uh I don't know how I missedthis.
Uh so it did not uh it did notdraw me in, but uh I the the
next one I'm gonna I'm it'sgonna be a fight with uh the

(40:34):
wife over here.
I'm not sure if she's gonna joinme.
How do we do we have anestimated runtime of this next
one?

SPEAKER_01 (40:40):
Is it gonna be It is I think like 10 minutes longer.
Oh is the rumored is the rumoreduh runtime.

SPEAKER_02 (40:48):
And look, we've talked about in the show how
much I how many times I'll watchthe extended versions of Lord of
the Rings, but man, three hoursand forty minutes in a theater?
It's gonna be uh difficult.

SPEAKER_01 (41:02):
Yeah.
When asked a couple years back,when asked, you know, will there
be like an intermission orsomething for people to use the
bathrooms?
Uh James Cameron goes, uh no,but uh they they can they can
use the bathroom whenever theywant.
They can miss they can see thethe scene they missed whenever
they come back to the theater.

(41:22):
You know, like insinuating thatlike if you see this once in
theater, you're coming back.
And for most people that isactually true.
That it's it's literally thethird highest grossing movie of
all time.

SPEAKER_02 (41:34):
I've only uh I've only seen two movies in theaters
two times.

SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
There's dirty work on you've only seen two movies
like more than once in theatersmore than once.

SPEAKER_02 (41:47):
Yeah.
And it's uh Dirty Work with NormMacDonald.
Uh came out like in 1997.

SPEAKER_01 (41:55):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (41:56):
And the other one is Spawn.
You mentioned that one on apodcast a couple months back.
Spawn.
I accidentally basically twogroups of friends the same
weekend wanted to go, so I sawit twice in one weekend.
Uh so I'm not sure if it'll drawme back a second time.

SPEAKER_01 (42:13):
I it's uh it's a that's that's that's uh that's
something between you and yourwallet.
I went to see the Way of Waterfive times in theater.

unknown (42:23):
Wow!

SPEAKER_01 (42:24):
Yeah, I went to see it five times in theater, and
then I went back a couple weeksago when it was like revisited
uh in IMAX.
In New Rock?
I went to New Rock.

SPEAKER_02 (42:34):
Did you have to deal with 30 minutes of uh
commercials?
Just like Rigovi commercials?
I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 (42:42):
I think it was a little behind schedule.

SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
Like it might have- It's hyperlocalized, but I uh I
went to the same theater thisweekend to go see something
completely different.
The Keanu Reeves Good Fortunemovie.
It's supposed to start at 2 30,and I'm telling you, they just
rolled like commercials, not notyou know, previews, like 20
minutes of regular TVcommercials.

SPEAKER_01 (43:04):
That's wrong.
Um yeah, no, it was only maybelike five to ten minutes late
for me.

SPEAKER_02 (43:11):
Which was a lot, you know, because the movie didn't
start to till 2.55 and it was a2.30 showing.

SPEAKER_01 (43:18):
Because then you also have the the trailers and
all that.
Yeah, that sucks, man.

SPEAKER_02 (43:21):
Was the movie good?
No.
Uh my wife uh absolutely uh disdisliked it.
I uh was non-plusted, it waswith Seth Rogan and Azizari.
I'm taking us way off courseinto uncharted waters.

SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
No, it's okay.
It's alright.
What did you think of thedifference uh or or the family
dynamics of Jake Soly's littleclan?

SPEAKER_02 (43:43):
Well, then Atiri uh really dynamic with Spider like
immediately evoked Game ofThrones, uh Jon Snow.
It was almost illogical in thesame way the Cat's was a little
bit at first.
Like it was so strong thatyou're just like, what?

(44:04):
The um the comics that you sentover that that I purchased and
read uh legally.
I um they were sorry, Jameslegal I legally gifted.
Yes, they were legally gifted.
I uh I felt like you got I saw alittle bit more that that's

(44:24):
almost so before we started theshow, I said that it felt like
these three comics, uh I thinkit's the hard way.
Am I the the high ground?
The high ground.
Why I say hard okay, it'sanother comicless series.
Anyway, the the high ground, uhI thought it felt like what we
should have seen instead of theway of water.

(44:45):
Like the way of water shouldhave come after because it was
so fleshed out look, I've reallyThis was the original script.

SPEAKER_01 (44:53):
Wait, really?
The High Ground is the originalscript for the second movie, and
he decided he wanted a differentstory.
So he it's still canonical.
It's still canonical, it stillhappens between you know, like
when the when the RDA returnsand that one-year jump, um, the
those three high ground comicsare still like part of the
story, and they're written byJames.

(45:14):
I mean, the they're adapted tocomic books by a different
writer, but the the script waswritten by James Cameron.
Um, and actually that's the casefor pretty much all of the
comics is um like he has thiscrazy lore Bible that you know
what when he came back to createthe Way of Water, he like I
don't know if it's a physicalBible or or what, but he had um

(45:38):
detailed notes on everything forthe past 15 years that like like
what happened between this movieand this movie.
So like he was clearly workingon this, like well, that's all
he has been working on, youknow, like besides his trips
down to uh visit the Titanicevery now and then, like that's
all he works on is like makingand fleshing out the lore of

(45:59):
this world.
So yeah, yeah.
Uh what did you think of theother kids?
Oh well you you we we we jumpedover to the the high ground
comics.
I don't think you finished them,right?

SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
I no, like I got almost to the end of the third
one.

SPEAKER_01 (46:13):
Okay, well I mean that's that's most of it.
So yeah, it's it's almost like aweird.
I'm I'm kind of happy that thatthis that that didn't make it
into the movie because it'salmost like the Navi using too
much technology, you know,because they they basically it's
like Navi in space.
Um yeah, that was it's silly,but it it works logically with

(46:39):
the story, you know, especiallywith Jake Sully.
Um but I I I prefer the muchmore grounded uh film that we
got.
So yeah, uh so you you thoughtthat the Nateri spider uh
dynamic was interesting.
What did you think about therest of the cast?

SPEAKER_02 (46:55):
Uh so one, I don't know any d do I like okay, so
Zoe Zaldana is Natiri.
Naytiri.
Right.
I don't know who plays the otheruh well now I know that's a
Gordon Weaver's uh Kiri.

SPEAKER_01 (47:12):
They're they're not actors that have been in
anything really.
Most of them are child act uhlike the all the other actors
are child actors.
So Natayam, Loak, Took, the kidwho plays Spider, um like
they're all essentially I don'tI I hate calling someone like a
no-name actor, but like they'reno-name actors, you know, like
they don't have um thewherewithal within Hollywood yet

(47:35):
to like was it be known.

SPEAKER_02 (47:37):
Was it Loac who bonds with uh Paikan, yes.
Right.
Now why did I can't recall whydid he why why was uh the chief
so angry that he was allowed tothat he was allowed to bond with
the outsider whale?

SPEAKER_01 (47:55):
It's kind of implied that the chief doesn't know the
full story or doesn't understandthe full story of what Paya Khan
did.
Um because it wasn't his clanthat he inadvertently helped, or
like inadvertently kind of gotkilled.
So like the the the flashback tomaybe I think it's about a year

(48:19):
previous, Payakan attacked thethe the ship people who were you
know uh they were hunting TolKun.
He he he attacked the Tulkunpeople with other Tol Kun and
some of the Navi from adifferent clan.
By doing so, he got a bunch ofTol Kun and Navi killed.

(48:42):
That in turn led to hisbanishment.
Um and basically it means thathe's just kind of he doesn't
live by the Tolkun way.
Uh okay so it's almost like uhthis fellowshipping thing that
they had, you know, like he'she's an outsider, he's like uh
outcast outcast, he um okay, sohe's like ex community.
Should be ostracized.

unknown (49:02):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (49:03):
Got it.
It I I really thought, I mean,uh the the bonding with them.
Although we had seen it with theI'm so bad with these names.
I wi I you know what I'm gonnasay, James Cameron?
Can't someone name I just giveme another Sean.

SPEAKER_01 (49:22):
Name everything like unobtaining them, James Cameron.
We we need we need moreobtainable names.

SPEAKER_02 (49:28):
I just uh sometimes I I I struggle a little bit.
Um but you know when they whenthey bonded with the uh I'm
gonna call them thepterodactyls, uh you had the
same kind of yes, ecron.
Uh you had the same kind of uhconnection there, and I I
thought that was cool.
I um I do I'd love to see amovie where whales are dumb.

(49:49):
They're just like, no, these arejust big dumb creatures.
These are the dumb ones.
These are the dumb ones.
Because they're always like, youknow, uh I don't know the
actor's name, I I but the he'slike one of the scientists who's
basically like, these are thesmartest, you know, creatures
and like the in that they havephilosophy.

SPEAKER_01 (50:08):
Oh, in in this movie, yeah.
It's uh it's germaine fromFlight of the Concords.

SPEAKER_02 (50:14):
Yes, that's all I know him from.
I only know him.
I love the the attendant theattendance for any of the
meetings in Flight of theConcords.
It's like uh, you know, Niles,uh Jermaine, Germain, you know,
like I just there's three peoplein a room.
I just Brett Brett Brett.
I love that show.
Uh so yeah, I mean, and alsojust how like how casually he's

(50:38):
like, yeah, you know, it's likelook look at like how smart they
are, and he's like, all right,anyway, I'm gonna drain this
liquid from their brain, youknow.
Uh it's Amrita.
It's so uh so kind ofridiculous.
They they it's almost like theyneeded uh, you know, like a
second.
I I love that it's likeunobtainium wasn't enough,

(50:59):
right?
Uh it's like, okay, so we havean obtainum.
What's our new unobtainium?
You know, it's like, okay, it'sgonna be whale brain juice.
So I wonder what the third one,I feel like the third one
they're gonna be, it's gonna besomething something even crazier
than unobtainium and brainjuice.

SPEAKER_01 (51:15):
So I mean the third movie, it's still within this
time period.
So like most likely there's notgonna be a huge like the story's
just gonna continue from wherethis one left off, basically.

SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (51:28):
Um, there's not gonna be a huge time jump, as
far as I'm aware.
I could be wrong there.
I I don't think that we're gonnahave another on Optanium or
Amrita if I were a betting man,but I'm not a betting man.
Let's talk about Jake uprootinghis family from the Omatakaya
people in the in the forest tolive uh as sea people with the

(51:52):
Meccaina.
I can I couldn't remember thename.
The Meccaina clan.
What are your thoughts on whatare your thoughts on the idea of
Pandora just being kind of likeEarth where there's different
biomes and you know, likethere's different people that
have adapted in the ways thatbest suit their needs in this
area?

(52:13):
Like we we definitely get to seehuge adaptations, like adaptive
differences, you know, betweenuh the the Navi races.

SPEAKER_02 (52:22):
What are your thoughts?
I thought that was awesome.
I mean it's you know, it interms of anthropology and study
of civilizations and societiesand how they grow and how they
adapt to their surroundings,like it it makes so much sense
that the na that these Navi havekind of a different subset of
skills, you know.
It it was it was kind of nice,not nice, but I mean interesting

(52:46):
to see uh the the Sully clansstruggle a little bit, you know,
as they try to adapt and stilluh be kind of braggadocious,
especially the boys amongst eachother.
You are not good divers, you maybe good but swinging through
trees, but like just the waythey I and you know, I mean

(53:08):
slightly uh kind of inherent I II don't wanna say racism, right?
But uh tribalism, right?

SPEAKER_01 (53:17):
You know, like there's definitely there's
definite tribalism and uh youknow you're different, so I'm
gonna make fun of you, right?
Yeah, which I don't think that'snecessarily racism, but yeah, it
it's just like fear of theother.

SPEAKER_02 (53:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (53:31):
So I liked I liked that.
Uh what else?
There's there's actually like somuch to talk about on this movie
that yeah, I I I don't even knowwhere to begin.
And we're already like an hourinto this podcast, so we're
we're coming to a close here.
But um what did you think of uhNateam's death?

SPEAKER_02 (53:48):
Like how it happened, or you mean like the
impact?

SPEAKER_01 (53:51):
The impact.
Um did you expect it to happen?

SPEAKER_02 (53:55):
Yeah, I I figured I figured somebody in that family
had to die.
Really?
I didn't think it was gonna beNaytiri.
I it's clearly not gonna beJigsuli.
Uh and I didn't think it wouldbe the younger ones.
I think it it made the mostsense for it to be the oldest
warrior type.
Uh so like once it became clearthat you know they were being

(54:19):
hunted, and it was likesomeone's gotta go.
I I didn't think for some reasonlike if more of them had left,
you know, if it was like more ofthe clan hadn't left with them,
you know, they had like a uh anentourage for lack of a better
term with them, then I'd belike, okay, cool, you'll lose
like the random side characters,you know, like when you're
watching like Lord of the Rings,and somehow, despite the battle

(54:40):
of 35,000, you know, R12characters always come out
scot-free.

SPEAKER_01 (54:46):
I'm sorry, Michelle Gomez, it's time for you to go.

SPEAKER_02 (54:49):
Yeah, you know, I I just think that like that you
were gonna lose uh the firstmovie set up that people can
die, you know, or characters candie.
And that once that happened, youknow, it it like it's like
whereas the prequel whereas theoriginal trilogy in Star Wars
almost established that almostnobody would die.

(55:10):
This one, you know, this serieskind of from the beginning did
give us an idea that that wemight lose.

SPEAKER_01 (55:17):
There there are definite stakes, yeah.
Um it's not everyone's gonnacome out clean.

SPEAKER_02 (55:22):
So it for me I I feel like there had to be Jake,
Jake Sully had to be.

SPEAKER_01 (55:28):
Now, was it was it impactful for you?
Yeah, I guess I guess is whereI'm coming to.
You you I know you watched thisover several days, um, but for
me, this was one of the moreimpactful cinema deaths that I
can remember experiencing.
And I don't know why.
I don't know why.
I uh maybe it's because I'm likethe firstborn child of my

(55:49):
family, so I kind of feel howNateam feels.
You know, like he's the onewho's trying to like corral his
his siblings all the time, he'sthe one who has to lead by
example, you know.
I I I feel that with Nateamquite a bit whenever I'm
watching it.
But I don't know if that'snecessarily the the reason I,

(56:10):
you know, attribute uh like thisdeath as being so impactful.
I I I find that the reactionsthat everyone gives, you know,
like Nate's.

SPEAKER_02 (56:19):
Oh well Nate her screaming is disturbing on all
the best levels.
Like 'cause it's you feel it'sreal.
Yeah.
To her it's real.
It it it it it wasoverwhelmingly real.
Like it it actually it added somuch to it.
What was that like that kind ofend to it, you know, like that

(56:42):
that scream of of of of realgrief, of real loss and pain,
you know.
I thought that was extremelywell done.
I wouldn't say it ranks upthere, but I I think it's part
of it's because like I've seenit.
I saw I felt it coming, whereaslike when Han gets killed, I I
had no idea.

(57:02):
Or like I know that this isgonna be silly because
everyone's gonna think I'm likeridiculous, but I watched like
Rocky 4 like 18 years after therelease date, and I'll never
forget.
I was watching it at like 11 inthe morning eating like slices
of slices of ham off of a giantham.
I just had just slicing off hameating there.

(57:24):
And when Apollo Creed died, I Iwas bawling.
I didn't I don't know why Ididn't see Had you seen the
movie prior to that?
No, no, never.
Oh, so that was the first time.
I had no idea, you know, and Iput it on.
So I'm watching the 18 yearslater after release at 11
o'clock in the morning eatingham with commercial breaks, and

(57:46):
I'm like, oh my god, Apollodied.

SPEAKER_01 (57:49):
That was one of my favorite movies growing up was
Rocky IV.
Um, I don't know why.
I think I think the Russianswere just such a great villain
in that movie.

SPEAKER_02 (57:57):
Well, you had the uh juxtaposition of the you know,
the the Russians with thetechnology and the Americans
with the down home just strengthand and stick to this.
But uh yeah, I mean his death,well not on the level of those
two deaths.
I thought that Natiri's acting,portrayal, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (58:19):
The the grief, the grief uh that because even you
know there uh Jake and Natirireact differently, and like Jake
almost becomes like likeshocked, quiet, you know, and
like he there's like a ringingin his ears almost um when when
he hears uh Quarch's voice, likeyou there, Jake, blah blah blah.

(58:40):
Yeah, and and then and thenthere's that final fight.

SPEAKER_02 (58:42):
It does set the stage uh for for some fireworks,
some some you know some definitefireworks.

SPEAKER_01 (58:50):
Have you seen the trailer for the next one?

SPEAKER_02 (58:52):
I I might have, but I think I saw it before you were
watching these.
Yeah, so it didn't mean that.
So yeah, I just saw like I waslike, ooh, that looks nice.
Like I saw it in okay, you knowwhat?
I'm lying to you.
Was it was it Fantastic Four?

SPEAKER_01 (59:05):
Oh yes, it shows up in Fantastic Four.

SPEAKER_02 (59:07):
I saw it.
I saw it in Fantastic Four.
You know, and I thought, oh,that's that's that movie that I
know nothing about that looksreally nice.
Uh now, you know, it's so I haveto rewatch it because n nothing
made any uh nothing's made anysense to me when I watched it.

SPEAKER_01 (59:21):
Yeah, I'm curious.
Check check out the trailers,see if um You you watch the
trailer?

SPEAKER_02 (59:26):
Don't you normally avoid trailers?

SPEAKER_01 (59:29):
Not I don't I don't make it a point to avoid
trailers.
Um unless it's like somethingI'm like really excited about,
then I'll watch like I'll go outof my way to watch a trailer.

SPEAKER_02 (59:39):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (59:40):
I kind of got like just I on Geek Critique, Imogen
and I used to do like trailerreactions like way back when.
And you know, it was it wasquick, easy views, and it you
know gained us a lot ofsubscribers really quickly.
But I didn't find that there wasreally any artistry in it.
It and I didn't like having tofeel like I was reacting.

(01:00:03):
And we we didn't go like all weweren't like screaming and
jumping in our seats or anythinglike that.
Um, we were reacting like wewould react to a trailer.
Um, but I I got so tired of thegrind of a new trailer came out,
we have to sit down right nowand react to this because you
know the algorithm demands it.
I got so tired of that that Istopped watching trailers

(01:00:24):
outside of the movie theater.
You're just like I just don't doit all that often unless unless
it's something that I'm reallyexcited for, basically.
Um so that's that's my personalstance on trailers.
Rich, I think we should bringthis podcast to a close unless
you have anything else that youwant to bring up or questions
that you have about the thismovie or the comic or anything.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:44):
Well, I just I'll just I said this before to you
and the comic.
I I I dislike and I get it, youknow, comic lines, switch
artists and stuff, but w whenyou have a a finite plan, I
would say, I I dislike when youwhen you have the style changes.
Uh and and I did find that whenyou have a movie that's so

(01:01:06):
incredibly crisp and clear,yeah, right, to then have any
sort of fuzzy representation isis kind of a crime, you know.
Especially with these charactersand that they look alike.
There's not you know the they inthe comic they they they're

(01:01:26):
they're it was almostindiscernible sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:29):
Yeah, there there there's uh kind of an issue with
drawing Navi uh individuals inthe comics where a lot of times
like the only way that you candetermine who they are is if
you're really paying attentionto like how they wear their
ornaments on their you knowtheir their chest or their body,
um or if they mention the namesof the characters.

(01:01:50):
You know, and that's it is it isdifficult to get into, uh, and I
I do admit to that.
Yeah.
But it's but I didn't do it.
Uh it's not my fault, Rich.
I didn't this isn't this isn'tmy creative choice.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:00):
But I I it sounds weird.
I almost wish this was the youit can't be the first movie
because you need the background,obviously, right?
But this movie, other than thewhale trope, which you know I s
I I'm I'm gonna call it out.
I I think it's a whale there's awhale trope here.
Uh but I'm uh other than that, Ithink it did avoid a lot of

(01:02:21):
tropiness in in some ways.
I it I see what you're saying.
Okay, it it it became somethingdifferent, right?
Whereas I felt like the firstone was just a different take on
a similar story.
I think that this story didenough to not to prevent it from

(01:02:42):
being easily like a you know,oh, this is just uh uh almost
like an homage to or a differenttake on this.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:49):
Totally.
Yeah, and there's there's plentyof homages in this, you know,
like even the fact that there'sa sinking ship at the end of
this one.
Um I wonder if this director'suh directed anything else with
sinking ships.
Oh my goodness, if he made likea navi Titanic.
I mean that's what happened.
The the ship even flipped over,like it was like that's that's

(01:03:10):
that but you know what he he putall of his loves in one movie.
He he loves uh underwater stuffand he loves these blue people,
obviously.
So like more power to him.
It was a cool story.
Rich, what are your finalthoughts on the way of water?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:25):
I uh definitely recommend it.
You know, I uh I think that thebest viewing is obviously
straight through.
So make yourself make sure yougive yourself you know, you
know, you gotta set aside sometime.
But I think that if you give itthe time and watch it in uh in a
nice environment with the lightsout and the TV bright, I I it's

(01:03:46):
beautiful.
And the story is well done.
The you know the the villain iscartoonishly evil in a delicious
way.
I I I really think there thereare a lot of things that I this
is one where I would say, youknow, like this is it's it's
definitely worth definitelyworth a rewatch after the first

(01:04:10):
time.
I mean I think it I think itdeserves a rewatch.
Like, you know, it it there's somuch there that I don't know if
you can really take it in in onesetting.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:18):
I know that the next film uh is dropping in like a
month and change.
And I'm not you know saying thatyou gotta go out and watch it,
you know.
You don't you don't have tobring the cavalry to the theater
and do that.
But if you do, would youre-watch these two movies or
just the last movie or anythinglike that in preparation for
going to see this?

(01:04:39):
Well, I I I think you gottawatch both.
I don't I think you like Avatarand then the way of life and
then the new Avatar.
I I think you you can't you needthe first one to give you some
background, you know, beforewell no no, I'm not saying like
like if you you if you're cominginto this blind, obviously,
yeah, you you want to watch thefirst two.
But like you, uh like literallyyou're going to rewatch these if

(01:05:03):
you go to the theater.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:05):
Yeah, I'm obsessive.
I mean, but that's that's it'sit's a that's you, that's almost
an unfair question.
And it doesn't it doesn't eventell you if something's good or
not, right?
It just means that I willsleevishly watch all parts of it
in the lead up to the next part.
So Yeah, I'm gonna uh you know,like if they came out with Game
of Thrones season 11, whatever,you know, uh like would I watch

(01:05:28):
every part of it?
I rewatch the series every year,so I'm not gonna and I don't
skip the bad parts.
So I would still watch the firstone again.
I will do that uh as I'm leadingup to it because I just uh and
then after watch the third one,I'm gonna want to watch the
first one again and see ifthere's anything from the third
one that you know, like someEaster eggs or something that I

(01:05:50):
missed, or some callbacks, youknow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:52):
There's definite there's definite callbacks,
there's definite Easter eggs,even between these two films.
A lot of the lines that Jake anduh Quaric say are actually lines
that they individually said orlike the the other said in the
first one.
Oh um I I don't remember any offthe top of my head, but I

(01:06:13):
remember like, you know, whenyou're when I'm watching it, I'm
just like, oh, I think one ofthem is astounding or fantastic.
I forget exactly.
Um but anyway, like they theythey definitely parallel each
other in terms of like some ofthe lines that they say.
It's just like a little Easteregg for people who are paying
attention too much, like me.
Um, but there's a lot of juiceon this bone, guys.

(01:06:34):
Um, and I just you know I haveto throw it out there.
You know, we request uh kindlythat you give this uh podcast a
nice five-star juicy review.
It gotta be juicy.
And yeah, uh, I I look forwardto checking out the next film in

(01:06:56):
this series, obviously.
I'm I'm very excited about that.
And uh Rich, thank you fortaking the time uh out of your
your week, out of out of your uhoblivion uh replay to you know
watch these movies with mebecause I I had a good time
revisiting them.
Um, guys, if you want to checkout any more of our socials,
please be sure to click downinto our show notes down below.

(01:07:19):
Uh follow us wherever you wantto follow us, and uh we'll see
you next time, guys.
Stay juicy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:25):
The Wolverine.