Captain America: Brave New World (2025)

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The Marvel Cinematic Universe stands at a crossroads, and Captain America: Brave New World perfectly embodies this uncertain moment. What happens when sidekicks become heroes, and their sidekicks become new sidekicks? How does a franchise maintain momentum after its defining narrative conclusion?

Sam Wilson's journey from Falcon to Captain America should feel triumphant, but instead reveals deeper issues within the MCU's current direction. The film attempts to resurrect storylines from The Incredible Hulk (2008), finally acknowledges the celestial from Eternals, and introduces adamantium as a bridge to the X-Men universe—yet these connections feel more like obligation than inspiration.

While Anthony Mackie brings charisma and conviction to his role, and the action sequences showcase his unique fighting style effectively, the political thriller elements don't reach the heights established by Winter Soldier. President Thaddeus Ross (now played by Harrison Ford) and the return of The Leader as antagonists create intriguing dynamics, but the stakes never feel as consequential as the film wants us to believe.

This episode dives deep into what works and what doesn't in Brave New World, while exploring the broader question of MCU fatigue. Have we reached a point where even the most devoted fans are becoming disenchanted? Is there a path forward that recaptures the magic that made these interconnected stories feel special rather than obligatory?

We also compare Marvel's approach to continuity with Star Wars', examining how different creative structures lead to different storytelling outcomes. The MCU's "Marvel Parliament" versus Lucasfilm's Story Group reveals fascinating contrasts in how franchises maintain coherence across multiple projects.

Whether you're still fully invested in the MCU or feeling the fatigue, this conversation offers fresh perspectives on where superhero storytelling might go from here. Is it time for Marvel to take a break and recalibrate, or push forward into bold new territory?

Twitter handles:
Project Geekology: https://twitter.com/pgeekology
Anthony's Twitter: https://twitter.com/odysseyswow
Dakota's Twitter: https://twitter.com/geekritique_dak

Instagram:
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https://www.youtube.com/@projectgeekology

Geekritique (Dakota):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBwciIqOoHwIx_uXtYTSEbA

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, big guys, sun's getting real low.
That's what Sam should havesaid to Ross in Captain America
Brave New World.
Has he not seen Avengers?
Age of Ultron?
I mean, come on, this guy wantsto be in Avengers.
So bad, but he's not playing.
But we're going to be talkingabout Captain America Brave New

(00:21):
World, guys, for episode 123 ofProject Geekology, we're going
to get into it.
We're going to get into thenitty gritty of what we liked,
disliked, what worked, whatdidn't work.
I'm one third of your hosts.
My name is Dakota.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm joined, as always , with Anthony and joining us,
as always is.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Rich, the guy who's also podcasting with Anthony and
with Dakota.
I just wanted to give peoplesome exposition background to
explain our relationship in casethey forgot what our
relationship was like before.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
It's a very difficult relationship to comprehend.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
I mean, we've been estranged for like a whole week,
you know.
So now we're back together.
I mean, I don't know, maybethere's.
Maybe there's a chance, maybethere's hope.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
There's definitely hope for our listeners to you
know, understand and gel withgel with.
You know our podcasting dynamicit's just three dudes, mostly
white, and I'm in a basement andrich is in a basement.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
How you guys been been pretty good, you know, just
, uh, just doing my thing, mandoing your thing, I don't like
doing my thing I don't like tohear that we're gonna have to
touch back, touch base on you alittle bit later.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Uh, rich, how you doing uh, pretty good.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
I've been uh still grinding away at mlb the show,
for I just feel like a zombie atthis point.
I think I need to put it downthere how far are you along in
mlb?

Speaker 1 (01:41):
the show like how, like percentage wise how many of
the cards have you collectedthat you need to collect?
What?

Speaker 3 (01:48):
you want to collect.
I don't know how it works so,like you, uh, one thing you can
do is you close out every team.
So I've closed out like 24franchises out of 30, so the
only ones.
You know I don't spend any money, so that's one problem.
And the other issue, like theotani card is 650 000 uh stubs

(02:13):
they call it all right.
Uh, I currently have 50.
I've spent some.
I bought juan soto.
I bought, like you know, which.
He was like 200 or no, he was150, 000 stubs and I thought
that was a lot.
And then just, I looked to seeiron judge and otani and they're
upwards of 700 to 1000.
I I don't know how I'm evergonna get there until the prices

(02:34):
drop on those cards is otanistill the highest he's the
highest rated regular card.
They they had to kind of changethe game around because last
year they basically startedreleasing 99s way too early and
so they had to kind of slow thatdown.
So the cards that are comingout now are, you know, decent in
power, but there's still a lotthat's behind paywall stuff.

(02:56):
And then you know, once youcollect all those like regular
cards, you trade them in forlike a rare card and then that
rare card goes into the set foreach division and then each
league and then the leagueoverall, and then you can get
the one card that's the top cardin the game, and of course he's
a New York Met, former New YorkMet, carlos Beltran.

(03:19):
So here in the past the topcard is not a Met.
I don't care, I'm like I'm'mjust gonna get my mets and I can
forget about the rest of itbecause the top card is a met
this year I have to doeverything in my power to get
that card so beautiful that's itis um, you know, my season

(03:39):
doesn't really start until aboutjune, uh, end of june, so once
school's over and also charlie'sgoing to school for two weeks
in july, oh boy, oh boy, thoseare, uh, those are like eight,
ten hour gaming days so, of thesevens, of the seven franchises
that you have not completed, thedodgers, the yankees and the

(04:00):
mets are among no.
The Mets.
I did everything I could to getthat one done, basically as
soon as possible.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
So, like I, oh, so you have the top card.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
Oh yeah, I got some of them.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Oh, I thought you were still trying to.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
Oh, no, that's the one that I kind of sold
everything out for.
I just went hard for that card.
I understand I understand, okay.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Okay, so Yankees and Dodgers, you still have.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
Yeah, they're, they're a pain.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, I know, I hear you, bro, I hear you.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
If I just spent some money?
If I just spent some money, I'dbe no problem, but I can't look
myself in the mirror.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
You know, anthony, ever since Rich has joined the
podcast this is, you know it'sbecome a weekly recap of
everything baseball.
How do you feel?

Speaker 2 (04:47):
I don of everything baseball.
How do you feel?
I don't know, you know, we, wemight have to, uh, you know,
separate you guys into abaseball podcast.
You know?

Speaker 3 (04:52):
and wait.
Hold on, I'm gonna bring itback to geekdom because uh this
week.
You know what they gave out atcity field three times.
They gave it out three times.
This is I've never.
The item was so popular lastyear that people were lined up
outside the stadium two hoursbefore the game started.
Their lines were starting,backed up to the subway and it
was for one hot item.

(05:13):
Tell me hello kitty in a metsuniform.
And they outdid themselvesbecause this year they did it
three days in a row that's howabout that, Anthony?
That's pretty impressive.
Did that raise?

Speaker 2 (05:26):
your interest in baseball.
So was it just Hello Kitty orwas it like the rest of the
Sanrio ensemble?

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Sadly, they do limit it to only Hello.
So they did Hello Kitty, threedays, bobbleheads and the New
York City Connect jerseys, theirthird kind of jersey.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Is this how you're going to try to pull Dakota into
the fold?
Sadly, he has pulled my wifewith this.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Hello Kitty bobblehead yeah no he definitely
has.
No, yeah, my wife was talkingabout the Hello Kitty bobblehead
that he brought to work.
I do want to talk a little bitabout baseball because I'm a
little bit salty.
This week we had a real as aYankee fan.
We had a really, reallyhorrible game.

(06:16):
It was a truly momentous upset.
I got to bring it up, you know.
I got to talk about it.
So last year we lost the WorldSeries.
It was against the Dodgers and,as they do, they have a rematch
somewhere down the line in theyear and we got to face off
against the Dodgers again.
This year they won the series,but the last game in the series

(06:40):
I think they won by like it waslike 18 runs to two and the only
two runs were like home runsfrom aaron judge, which is like
it's good.
It's good for him, but it'sit's just bad.
It's a bad look for the teamletting 18 runs through it was
such that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
yeah, that like I mean, with the way like I've
seen how scores in baseball areand it's, you know, it's very
similar to, I guess it like sits.
Maybe the scoring is a littlebit above the amount that you
would see in, maybe like socceror hockey, but most of the time

(07:19):
it's what like four, five youknow, runs, yeah, five runs per
team per game.
Right.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
So, like you know, if you're seeing anybody getting
like 18 in baseball, like even Iknow that's crazy, that's a
blowout, it's psychological yeah, not like the Yankees were
psychologically like traumatizedfrom the World Series, clearly
because there's literally notbeen a game this season where
they've gotten 16 less runs thanthe other team.

(07:52):
It was bad, it was just reallybad.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
At least they did it on the road.
I happened to go to a Red Soxgame where they lost to the
Toronto Blue Jays.
I believe the score was 27-4.
It got to the point where theRed Sox fans were cheering for
the Blue Jays to score morebecause they wanted to be there

(08:15):
for the biggest blowout game inthe history of baseball, you
know.
So at least you guys did it.
Look, I mean, clearly I didmock a few people when I saw the
score and the fact that ShoeiOtani it seemed for about a
couple seconds like nodded off,like he was so bored, like he
had his arms on the like.
He's on the bench or by thefence and he like put his head

(08:37):
down.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Let's put it this way Shohei Otani from the Dodgers
is now the leading home runhitter for the entire game, the
entire baseball franchise, at 23home runs this season, where
Judge is now below him at 21.
But Judge is still the besthitter in terms of just batting

(09:00):
average.
But that's yeah, anyway, let'sjust.
I'm so sorry, guys.
You guys have been listening tous like ramble for the past
like eight minutes aboutbaseball.
We're going to cut it out.
No more baseball, this podcast,rich, anything else you've been
up to this week.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
That's really kind of just been focused on that.
And yeah, since I'm limited,that's no more, no more Rich.
Yeah, that, uh, and uh, yeah,since I'm limited, I that's no
more, no more, yeah, no, that'sit.
I guess, uh, I'll just have toleave it, uh, you know, for for
another time, for next week.
It's a long season, boys, it'sa long grind, don't worry, we'll
be back, just like hambonehambone, the great hambino oh,

(09:40):
okay, came back.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
That's the last thing I'll do.
This does tie into the Sandlotepisode that we did a couple
weeks back.
They brought the great Hambinoone of the characters from the
Sandlot to a not a major leaguegame, but a game.
Yeah when he played with theSavannah Bananas.
Yes, savannah Bananas A team Ihad not heard of before.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
They're wild.
If you guys haven't seenanything, if you had not heard
of before, they're wild.
If you guys haven't seenanything, if you've never heard
of the Savannah Bananas, youdon't need to like baseball at
all to enjoy their antics.
I would sincerely recommendtheir games are sold out.
They actually travel all overthe country.
Their games are sold out.
They basically play a hybridbaseball league.

(10:24):
They're like the Harlemlemglobetrotters they dance and
they sing and there's mascotsand and characters from the
sandlot just showing up randomly.
So it's, it's really.
It's different.
It's not baseball, it's, it'san.
It's an entertainment show thatthat is centered around the
game of baseball loosely.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Rich, you're cut off again.
Anthony, we're bringing it overto you.
What have you been up to thisweek?

Speaker 2 (10:48):
All righty.
So we're going to move fromdiscussing baseball for eight
minutes to discussing hockey foranother eight minutes.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yes, let's go.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, we've got the Florida Panthers.
They're in the Stanley Cup forthe third time in a row.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Are they actually?

Speaker 2 (11:10):
They're the only Florida team that's repping.
You know any talent, honestly,I mean so really like nothing
crazy going on this week.
You know watching this moviefor a second time, you know mean
we'll, we'll talk about itlater, but hold on.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Anthony I, I I distinctly remember you texting
the group chat that you weregoing to see another movie this
week no, no no I didn't seeanything.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
Now it's okay.
Yeah, man.
Uh, you know this ties intoanother episode that we did a
while back.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Uh this is pre-rich lilo and steech.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, yeah, we did watch.
Uh, I did watch lilo and steechand and when you, when you had
mentioned the end, I was likeyou know, we're getting towards
the end, I'm like this is prettymuch the same thing until like
the end and happened, and I waslike, okay, you know, I, I can,
I can see like where, where,like some of the gripes were

(12:05):
with that, but I mean, otherthan that, for the most part, I
think that they did a prettydecent job with, like the rest
of the movie what I'll say aboutthe the end of the live action
lilo and steech um I can't keepit going, because that's what we
called it so, uh, backgroundfor those of you who don't know,

(12:28):
if you haven't listened to ourlilo and siege episode, we
pronounce it lilo and siegethroughout the entire episode
pretty much, and for some reasonit was huge with friends, with
with french audiences, like heuh it got like 900 a thousand
views or listens in Frenchwithin the first week it was
bonkers in France.

(12:48):
Yeah, that's how they alsopronounce it Lilo and Steech it
must be.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Anyway, lilo and Steech, what I will say about
the ending of that movie withoutspoiling anything.
If you see that on paper, ifyou see that written online what
the ending changed it to,without like the context of the,
the way that the movie handlesit, I can totally see why you
would be really upset by thatand, um, you know, be angry

(13:13):
about it online and all that.
But it's definitely the bestpossible ending for that movie
within the context of it.
So I mean, do you agree withthat, anthony?

Speaker 2 (13:22):
I um, I mean they could have gone the original
route and it still would havelike made sense, but I I mean
what they were kind ofpresenting like throughout the
movie.
It was kind of headed towardsthat way.
You know, I mean dakota and Iare kind of dancing around it,
because I don't think youhaven't seen it right, rich.

(13:44):
Oh, I read about it, oh yeah, Ispoke myself.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't think it's worth spoiling
the audience, cause it is likeif you hear it from us it'll
sound worse than it actually is.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Just see it for yourself, it's it's actually not
like most of most.
It hit pretty much like most ofthe beats and there were enough
changes to make it feel likefresh enough that uh, yeah, that
I mean I I feel like it couldhave ended the the original way
and it still would have madesense, but they were kind of

(14:18):
like going the route of thatending like throughout the movie
.
So I mean, but I mean overall Ienjoyed it.
I thought it was a fun movie.
It there was a lot of likeheartfelt moments in it and, you
know it, it still had, I Iwould say like what, what kind
of like what you were sayingabout, like you know it being a

(14:40):
potential, like you know, goodlive action.
I mean, when you think aboutthe last, I think maybe few live
actions that they've had,they've just really missed the
mark.
But this one at least does wellenough to capture the story and
keep it fresh.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
I totally agree.
As far as what I've been up tothis past week, I feel like I
did something that's worthy ofbeing discussed in this show,
and I've been wrecking my brainfor the past five, ten minutes
because I knew my turn wascoming up.
But I can't remember and it'llprobably pop up in my head as
I'm editing this episode.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
Marvel timeline.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
I didn't have anything crazy going on.
Some news for those of you whowatch Doctor who we have a new
doctor.
It's not Chudi got one anymore,it's uh potentially billy piper
, who was a who played rose, wasthe original companion of the
ninth doctor.
So very crazy uh news.

(15:46):
I'm not sure if I like it, um Idon't.
Yeah, I saw that I, I don't know, I don't know what they're
doing over there.
I haven't been watching uhdoctor who for a couple seasons,
so I'm, I'm, I'm definitelybehind.
I, I missed pretty much theentirety of the shooty got web,
uh, you know thing for, exceptfor like two, two episodes maybe
, but yeah, dude, I missed mostof after capaldi.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think I watched like a couple episodes after him
and yeah, that was it yeah, Ididn't stick with it yeah, rich.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
I don't know if you watch doctor who at all, but um
no, I I do know, you know, Iknow the broad strokes of what
it is.
I know that david tenet was adoctor who I believe, if that's
correct.
I know there's the targus and Iknow like that much essentially
.
I kind of in my head it's kindof like a quantum leap, but he

(16:41):
gets to pick where he goes andyeah, somewhat I never sunk my
teeth into it and then generallyI've heard.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
It's an interesting premise.
Yeah, it's an interestingpremise.
It's basically like he's analien who, uh, can travel
through time and space with thetardis and he picks up strays,
most normally from earth, um,strays meaning like companions
and you know they.
They go on little adventuresand some of them are really

(17:14):
crazy, some of them are reallycorny.
Some of them are really corny,some of them are, I don't know.
Anyway, there's some reallygood episodes in there and
there's some really not goodepisodes in there.
But that's kind of the joy ofthe series.
It's not, like you know,excellent every week.
It's kind of like pick andchoose what you like.
But yeah, I haven't watched.
I watched the first season ofJodie whittaker.

(17:46):
The, the first female doctorsrun.
Oh and when, when, when one ofthe doctor dies, they are reborn
into a new actor, basically,which has kept the show's
longevity for 50 plus 60 plusyears.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, say that again.
Like dax from uh curzon, daxfrom the space nine, like they
just keep like the, so they haveall the memories of, like the
previous doctor who?
Or are they completely likereborn?

Speaker 1 (18:01):
yeah, tabla rasa yeah , I guess it is a little bit
like dax.
Yeah, a little bit.
Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a new,it's like a literal
reincarnation of the characteroh, but um yeah, yeah it's, it's
interesting, but anyway, um,they recast the doctor as one of
the previous companions from 15, almost 20 years ago at this

(18:25):
point, and it was very random,so nobody really knows.
Oh no, it was 20 years agobecause 2005,.
Yeah, 2005 was the firstepisode of the reboot of Doctor
who.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Wow, 20 years ago that I mean so that that wasn't
the first time that they hadpulled a previous like actor
from the show, because, remember, peter capaldi was like in a
previous episode, like he was um, he was in like that pompeii
episode, but this one was waydifferent because this was like
an actual.
This was a main character,right, this was a main um and

(19:01):
like she, she was around likeduring, during, it's like it's
infancy, yeah, the first coupleseasons, yeah yeah, she was up,
she was in it and during itsupswing, so so it's.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
it's a weird choice to um promote that she is going
to be the next Doctor, but Idon't think that she actually is
based on the credits of thatepisode.
It did never say that, you know, introducing Billy Piper as the
Doctor, which for the entiretyof like since Christopher
Eccleston, david Tennant, mattSmith, capaldi Whitaker and

(19:36):
Shudy Gatwa, they have all saidintroducing this actor as the
Doctor, and in the credits ofthis it just said introducing
Billy Piper.
So I think it's just a gimmickto get people involved and
they're going to backtrack it.
But we'll see.
I do hope that she is not theDoctor, just because I don't
want any more gimmick stuffgoing into the show.

(19:58):
It doesn't make any sense.
It kind of annoys me.
Anyway, I'm not going to dwellon it.
Guys, we're talking about a MCUtitle this week.
We don't talk about MCU toomuch on Project Ecology.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Rich, you've never talked about it.
We do from time to time.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
We do from time to time.
Yes, I don't know, Honestly,probably less than five times
we've done an MCU title Rich.
I think this is the first timeyou've talked about an MCU title
.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yep, yeah, I think this is the first one, so I'm
pretty excited.
I'm not sure if you guys knowmuch about the MCU Dakota.
Do you have a lot offamiliarity with, like, how
things are laid out?
I don't.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
I couldn't tell you what year this takes place.
I couldn't tell you how manymonths it's been since.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
I saw a date, I thought I got president.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Thaddeus Ross was inaugurated as president.
I couldn't tell you how longSam has been Captain America no,
no, I couldn't tell you howlong Sam has been Captain
America no, no, I do happen toknow a little bit about the MCU.
I'll be honest, anthony.
What's your relationship to theMCU?

Speaker 2 (21:09):
My relationship to the MCU.
Oh man, I don't know, it's asemi-fan.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
That's fair.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
No, I was a fan.
I would say I was a fan untilafter Endgame and then now it's
just been a rollercoaster ofsemi-good things to really bad
things.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
I'm going through the list of topics that we've
covered in the past.
We've actually covered quite abit of, you know, I would say,
recent MCU ish titles Our secondepisode, sorry, our third
episode we did Black Panther.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
When did you guys do Love and Thunder?
That's a good question, have we?

Speaker 1 (21:50):
not done, love and Thunder.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Because I don't think that movie really exists.
We did.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
We did, we did, we did one division shang chi.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
What if eternal spider-man no way home?
I'm just going through the list.
Hold on hold, on hold.
On guardians of the galaxy,volume three, we skipped the
first two.
Third one is a good one and Ibelieve that was the last one,
except for, uh, deadpool andwolverine.
I think that was deadpool andwolverine was the last one that
we did.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
I don't think we did a wandavision one actually yeah,
I'm pretty sure we did, did we?

Speaker 2 (22:24):
I feel like we did all right.
Well, that's a mandela, that's.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
That's the mandela effect going on.
Guys, what uh?
Is this the first time you'rewatching this movie?
Is this the second time or thethird time you're watching this
movie?

Speaker 3 (22:35):
for me it was the first time I saw it in theaters
and I I think I had pre-seen itin theaters.
Then I saw it in theaters.
Then I watched it two timesbefore this episode two times.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Okay, anthony, hit it .
How many times have you seen um?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (22:51):
I had ended up seeing it in theaters and, yeah, this
was like my second time, I thinkseeing that movie in theaters
is what kind of like justderailed me from even caring
about seeing an mcu movie in thetheaters now okay, yeah, I, I
was already a little bitderailed prior to this movie.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
There's never been an mcu movie where I didn't see it
twice in theaters.
But uh, this was the first one,because I hadn't seen it at all
in theaters.
I, I just didn't care anymore,I guess.
Um, so this was, this was thefirst and only time I've seen
this movie, so I'm, I'm, I'mriding on gut instincts,
basically.
Basically, anthony, tell meyour thoughts.
You said that this moviederailed you from the MCU.

(23:36):
Was there any positives to this?

Speaker 2 (23:40):
I mean, yeah, there is some positives to it.
I mean I do like Anthony Mackieand I do like Sebastian Stan.
I do like their characters.
I just feel like they.
I don't know.
I just feel like the writerswrote themselves into a corner

(24:01):
and now they just don't know howto write themselves out of the
corner.
They just don't know whatthey're doing.
They just are kind of trying toI don't know.
It's like the DC effect ishappening to them.
They're trying to rush things.
It's like the DC effect ishappening to them.
They're trying to rush things.
Honestly, to tell you the truth, I'm more excited to see

(24:21):
Superman than I am any MCU moviethat's coming out.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Okay, all right, we'll touch back on that point
later.
Rich, what are your thoughtswhen you saw this movie?
Like dislike, middling.
Where do you land?

Speaker 3 (24:35):
So I saw it with my son.
He's 10.
It's funny.
Last night I told him that wewere going to be recording, so I
asked him what he thought andhe summed it up as the movie was
good.
It had some cool effects, butthe stakes weren't really high
for me and I didn't really care.

(24:56):
But I like all the charactersand I think that that's kind of
I'm I'm not sure.
I almost feel like I'm echoinganthony in this, but I don't
think I am, because I think,anthony, you enjoy going to the
movie theater.
You enjoy the experience a lotmore than I do.
I've gotten to the point whereI find watching movie at home so
I can pause and go to thebathroom honestly so much more

(25:17):
enjoyable.
Now that I have a son, that aswell.
It's just easier.
I don't have to go grabanything for him or miss any of
the movie, because then I getthere late and he's got to get
in there and my wife tends toknock out during the movies, so
I spend some of the time wakingher up.
It's easier to keep her awakeif we're at home.
So for me the movie goingexperience has become a little

(25:44):
bit more laborious and thatmeans that I really don't.
I want to go to the moviesgenerally for something that I
know I'm going to really enjoyor something that's going to be
big.
And I think that at first themarvel movies were all that.
For a very long time in my lifethose were the movies that I
went out to see every singletime.
And now I am picking andchoosing.
I remember I didn't go see amultiverse of madness in
theaters.
I was okay, just uh, watchingit from home.

(26:04):
When it came out, I, you know alot of it's just fomo, it's.
It got to the point where it'snot that I wanted to see the
movies, it's that I didn't wantto fall behind on what was
happening in the movie.
And I think that this is kindof the same thing.
Like, look, put this on Disneyand I'm totally cool.
Like you know, I don't have togo out to the theater, I would

(26:26):
enjoy it.
You know I'd be like, oh, thatwas a nice little movie, you
know, whereas I'll be honest,and we haven't talked about it
yet, but I don't think you'veseen it, dakota.
I don't think you've seen it,dakota, but thunderbolts I liked
a lot more, you know.
And like I would have said,okay.
I'm almost okay with spendingthe money on that kind of like.
I did with guardians the firsttime.
I was like I don't really knowthis group, but I'm going to

(26:47):
take a chance and see.
You know how I like themtogether.
And so this was.
It felt like it was lackingsomething.
It, the the antagonist, is alittle muddied and unclear and
kind of obfuscated.
So I think that my 10 yearold's assessment of the lack of

(27:08):
a threat being it didn't reallyever feel like there was no
point.
We were talking about this acouple weeks ago when we, uh,
when we were talking about youknow and or like, there were
points where I was on the edgeof my seat like, oh, my goodness
, and this is supposed to be anedge of you know political
thriller, and there was never atime where I was worried about
anybody.

(27:28):
I wasn't worried about anythinghappening ross, I wasn't
worried about anything with cap.
I wasn't.
You know, there was nobody, no,even Joaquin.
Why am I calling him Redbird?
I can't the Falcon?
He, like you know, I wasn'tworried about him.
I was like, oh no, he's goingto be fine.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
There was no.
Oh no, he's out of this match.
He'll be in the next one.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, next one, yeah, like I didn't.
I I think that maybe if wewould have gotten more than ross
telling cap I want you toreform the avengers, right, like
if we would have had somemovement towards that, maybe at
the end you get a couple ofother people showing up uh, yeah
, is that like cameoing us sothat it's more exciting?
Yeah, and guess and guess what,I don't care.
Like these are supposed to besteps to the bigger movie.

(28:23):
Right, these are the mini stepsto the bigger piece.
So this is all heading towardsDoomsday and I'm excited about
Doomsday and I think that one ofthe things that the other
movies did in the other phaseswhen they built up was they gave
us a little bit more of theteam building.
And falcon, winter soldier andcap being in the same movie, it
feels like an extension ofwinter.

(28:46):
So, captain, american wintersoldier, right, or falcon and
winter soldier, like that's.
It just feels like an extensionof that rather than a tentpole
marvel movie yeah, okay, no, I,I totally get that.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
So, uh, touching on what you said about thunderbolts
, you know being the better filmor the one worth, you know
spending the money on intheaters.
I I put on twitter that.
You know.
The next thing that we're goingto be covering is captain
america, brave new world, and alot of the people who follow me
on Twitter know that I have beenstaying away from the MCU for a

(29:24):
little bit and they're likewhat are you doing, man, watch
Thunderbolts instead.
And I'm like this is what wedecided to choose for the
podcast.
I'm not just going to justrandomly change it up and talk
about Thunderbolts on our BraveNew World podcast.
So there was a lot of thatonline today or you know, the
past week.
But, yeah, no, I do think thatI will like Thunderbolts more

(29:46):
when I see it.
I might even love it, I don'tknow, but I'm again, I'm willing
to wait to see it.
Like, at this point, I'm just,I'm not like on the edge of my
seat.
I don't.
I have no fear of missing outright now.
There's nothing you can tell meonline.
You can.
You can tell me any characterdies.
I will be okay, you know, likethat's, that's my level with the

(30:07):
MCU.
Like you can tell me thatFalcon kills the aged Steve
Rogers in in Captain America,brave New World, and I will be
like that tracks.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Um, I'm okay with that.
Like I, I don't.
I don't have the emotionalstakes anymore in the mcu that I

(30:27):
used to have and I think thatthat's a problem yeah, well, I
mean it opens you up to more, Iguess like artistic direction
with your youtube channel.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
But but I agree with you, dakota.
Honestly, to tell you the truth, I would go even further to say
that if they didn't announce anMCU movie for the next five
years, I wouldn't care.
Like I mean, honestly, to tellyou the truth, I'm just like I
am fatigued with the MCU.
I wouldn't say superhero stuffin general, because I mean I
watch anime and there's a lot oflike super-powered stuff going

(31:02):
on.
You know I watch my HeroAcademia and, like you know
that's superheroes and stuff.
But like I'm just tired ofmediocre stuff.
Like stop giving us mediocrestuff.
What is?
It's like they're giving us allof those.
It's like every movie is beingwritten by those, those like
writers that they get duringlike strikes.

(31:23):
That's what it seems like,that's what these movies feel
like and this one especiallydoes have that vibe.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
What I will say is I'm not averse to new MCU titles
coming out.
I'm not I'm not necessarily,like, opposed to the idea of no
announcements coming out.
I'm not necessarily opposed tothe idea of no announcements
coming out, but I will say I amexcited about the Fantastic Four
movie.
That's probably the only titleright now that has any interest
to me, just because it looksunique enough that I will

(31:52):
definitely be giving that a shotand I love the.
I I have, you know, said for along time that they should have
been in the movies.
You know, ages ago.
You know they.
They have absorbed fox into youknow their system over what,
six, seven years ago at thispoint, and they're just now
getting to making, you know, foxowned properties.

(32:14):
It's, it's actually a crazytimeline.
If fox had bought disney, youknow, they would have had, you
know, like five, ten movies outby now.
But because the mcu has so muchmeat to chew on and they don't,
they don't want to say no toprojects, you know they they've
had to, like, push off theirplans for, you know, adding the
x-men and the fantastic four,and that sucks because those are

(32:37):
some of the biggest marvelproperties ever.
But you know I'm I X-Men andthe Fantastic Four and that
sucks because those are some ofthe biggest Marvel properties
ever.
But you know I'm digressing andwe're talking about MCU as a
whole.
We should, you know, dial itback to Brave New World.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
It's so hard to like talk about this movie without
kind of, I guess, expressingyour dis.
You know how we're disgruntledwith the mcu and kind of like
the I guess the missed misstepsthat it's like taken, it's
definitely fallen pretty fall.
It's fallen far from the itsgrace.

(33:11):
You know like it was at onepoint it was tough, but it was
tough to point out a bad MCUmovie and now you could just see
it all over the place.
But yeah, I agree, let's talk alittle bit about this,
Something that I noticed.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Really quickly.
You mentioned that this feelsor the MCU movies recently have
felt like it's when writers goon strike, they get like the
non-union writers to come in to,like you know, fix up and patch
it up.
It feels to me like this moviefeels to me like they had a
really good premise.
You know, like you take thepremise there's a new Captain

(33:53):
America, there's a new presidentit happens to be Ross America.
There's a new president it's ithappens to be Ross, Thunderbolt
Ross.
He's running for president andhe's going to turn into the, the
Red Hulk, at some point in inthis movie.
Whatever, do your best to make aCaptain America like it's.
Imagine putting this in chat,gpt, feed it all the scripts of

(34:13):
the previous movies, type in,you know, write a script for a
captain america 4 featuring samas the new captain america, and
also, uh, make sure toincorporate, uh, loose tie-ins
that we haven't done yet andalso tease an x-men movie coming
forward and that's exactly all.
Like that, those are the threelike jumping on points for this

(34:36):
movie, because we have a CaptainAmerica movie, we have Ross
back, and then it feels likethey're tying in loose ends from
movies that they've forgottenabout.
The first movie obviously isEternals.
There's a big Eternals.
Call out that.
It's been years since they'vebrought up the fact that there's
a big celestial in the IndianOcean.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
That's just there I literally said that when, when I
had seen this in the in themovie theater, I was like, oh
wow, they finally bring backthis giant celestial being that
is in the ocean.
Like how do you not bring thatup?
You know that, like, that thingis like way more massive than

(35:18):
um, like the statue of liberty,like any of the like anything,
yeah, any of the wonders in theworld and it's like way bigger
than that.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
That's like the ninth wonder of the world it's like
tall enough where it reachesinto space like the hands.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah yeah, like like you see it right there, like
it's like breaking theatmosphere, like in dakota has.
He has the, the, the, uh, thecelestial being like as his
backdrop in zoom and like youcould see like its hands like
kind of pointing out like out ofthe atmosphere.
But yeah, like it's insane.
But yeah, like when you saidthat there is a tie into the

(35:53):
x-men, I noticed that also whenthey said that this being had
like adamantium in it yeah, I, Ipreviously knew adamantium to
be an alloy, meaning that theymixed it with two different
metals.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
I don't know if that's how it is in the comics.
I know that that's how it is inthe x-men movies, but uh, yeah,
I was a little bit surprisedabout that.
I mean, I, I knew, like I hadheard the rumors that they were
going to use, you know, thecelestial to like be the
producer of adamantium.
But you know what let's, I'mgonna, I'm gonna give my time

(36:28):
over to rich, who is ourresident wolverine fan on the
podcast.
Well, he, even he had, for atleast as long as I've known him,
and I'm sure it's much longerthan that he has shaped his
facial hair to bewolverine-esque yeah, I gotta be
ready for comic con every year.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
I I used to go.
I cosplayed as wolverine oneyear and my friend said if
you're really dedicated, youknow you gotta do this, you to
grow out the beard for the wholeyear.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
And I went he's got the hugh jackman thing going on
right now.
He's got the yeah, the whitetank top.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, that's just the, that's just the
half cuban in me.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Uh, this is summertime, half cuban, no no
man come on like what's, what'sthe other half, canadian logan I
, I, the ital, but uh, I've,I've had this since.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Uh, since the wolverine came out.
Uh, yeah, right, because it wasa summer movie, it was a july
release, so it was between.
Uh, you know, I didn't have todeal with the students the next
day, so I just did somethingwild.
But uh, I, I won't say that,you know I was.
You know it's sad.
I didn't even get excited, likeI knew what it meant, I knew

(37:37):
what they were doing.
But also, I guess part of me islike, I love Hugh Jackman.
He's done the role of greatservice.
But listen, as a longtimeWolverine fan, as a child who
was offered HGH shots because Iwas on the we side and my family
was like, hey, maybe you shouldbe taller, the we side, and my

(38:00):
family was like, hey, maybe youshould be taller, uh, the guy
who the back of the card saidfive, three was my favorite
superhero.
That's that's why I attachedmyself to him at first, and then
everything I found out and Ifell in love with him.
I, you know, after watchingdead pool and wolverine, I
really enjoyed that movie.
You know, I guess for me it'slike I need to see who wolverine
might be next.
You know, for me to get alittle bit more excited, like at

(38:22):
this point in my mcu fandom.
I've seen enough of it wherejust dropping me, oh adamantium
is not gonna send shivers up myspine.
I'm not like, oh, he's comingback, uh, I, because I I don't
know what they're gonna do withit.
You know, I almost feel likethey really need to.
I mean, they have they're.
They're just sitting on allthis money, like why don't you
just have like tons of of justgroups working on this stuff and

(38:44):
and making good stuff all thetime?
I don't.
I think part of what there ishappening and it's something
that happens with the comics aswell is is kind of when they
like reset a little bit right itit takes.
When they do something a littlebit different, you know, a lot
of times readership drops,people aren't, aren't as

(39:05):
involved with it or or care asmuch, and then what ends up
happening is they have to stopmaking kind of strong narrative
choices to keep the characterswhere they are right.
And I and I think that's alittle bit there's a transition.
I I don't think.
I mean I think that uh, chadboseman passing away was I think

(39:27):
he was going to be like thenext centerpiece, in many ways,
of the marvel mcu that'sinteresting and I think that his
because he was, because he, hewas star power, right, like that
black, that black panther moviecomes out and it it brought in
a whole new audience, right andand he, he was carrying, he I

(39:49):
think he was one of the majorstars and losing him, I think,
was a major blow.
And here I think that this moviejust could have had more heroes
to help, to help kind of boostthem up a little bit, uh, to get
people excited a little bitmore.
You know, I know that there'sgoing to be a different avengers
coming up, so I just would haveliked to see a couple of them

(40:11):
in here.
I think it would have.
It would have just made look, Idon't think you need to be
subtle anymore that these moviesare tying together.
Like I don't think you need tobe subtle anymore that these
movies are tying together.
Like I don't think we need asubtle drop, like don't, don't
give me a subtle drop ofanimantium, like you already
here's the thing, though I don'tthink this was subtle, I I
really don't think like they.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
They made it a focal point.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
Oh, just give me.
But see, I guess I'm greedy,like I want to see hank mccoy in
that, in that, in that lab, youknow, like that you guys showed
us in the marvels, you know,right, okay, I, I, I wanted to
see you know what drive by themansion.
It's right over here inwestchester, we're not far from
it, okay, on gray malkin lane,all right, uh, it's, it's real

(40:55):
close to you.
Know, I've mapped it out frommy house, one of the reasons why
I moved to westchester.
Uh, so I, I, just, I, I don'tknow, maybe that's part of it
also.
It's like I know you're sayingit's obvious, but, man, just
it's obvious to you and me,right, it's obvious to anthony,
right, is it obvious to the guywho just goes hey, I'm gonna go

(41:15):
see a captain america moviewho's not deep in, are they like
?
Oh, adamantium, that means thex-men are coming.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
I think at this point that average dude knows what
adamantium is and knows the thecontext behind it you know after
what.
10 different films withwolverine um being either, you
know, like saved by hisadamantium or poisoned by it, or
any anything in between thatthat's just us, dakota.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
That's just us because we watched all those
movies in a row it could be.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
It could be that, um, I I can't deny that fact, but I
I feel like making it wasn't,as it didn't just say that.
You know that this is thecelestial, is new land that's
popped up.
It's that they're fighting overwhat's inside the celestial.
You know it's a new materialthat has so far been absent from

(42:11):
the earth.
But again, what does it mean?
Like I'm trying to picture whatthe future of the mcu looks
like from this point and itdoesn't make any sense.
So we know that secret invasionor not secret invasion, um,
secret wars is coming up, whichis like the end of the
multiverse saga, which is thesecond major saga after the

(42:32):
infinity saga that encompassedthe first three phases of
Marvel's cinematic universe.
The multiverse saga ends withSecret Wars which, spoiler alert
it will bring multipleuniverses into one.
There will be a type ofsentient being, probably Doom,
played by Robert Downey Jr forsome random reason, who brings

(42:55):
random worlds together into abattle world scenario where they
will have to literally battlefor their world and there will
be, you know, different factionsamong them.
They will get along or theywon't get along and eventually
they'll all come to theconclusion that you know we're
wait a minute, we're on the sameside, which is what happened in
the secret wars comic um.

(43:16):
That will happen at the end ofthe multiverse saga and the
worlds will be rearrangedsomewhat.
We will have x-men andfantastic four full scale within
the mcu proper.
Will the current mcu be anydifferent?
We don't really know.
Most likely it will, becausemost of, like, their main cast

(43:38):
has aged out of the roles or areno longer willing to play them.
You know, long term, like wedon't have a proper steve rogers
anymore, we don't have.
Well, I guess we do have a thor, but we don't have a black
widow anymore, we don't.
There's a number of charactersthat have, you know, aged out of
their primary roles and theywill need to be recast at some
point if the MCU is going tocontinue.

(43:59):
So my question is are theygoing to reboot the universe as
a whole and this celestial willstay and this adamantium will be
the driving point?
Which will, you know, feedwolverine's?
You know exoskeleton, or is hejust going to be a new character
from another world who alreadyhas adamantium in his skeleton
because he's supposed to beolder than all the x-men by

(44:21):
about a century?
It doesn't make any sense to meand I'm just like what is the
point of this easter egg that?
Do you understand what I'msaying?

Speaker 3 (44:27):
I'll be furious.
Listen to me, I will be furious, furious if it's just like oh,
we just ran, uh, you know, uh,weapon, the weapon x program,
and in in 2027 because wediscovered adamantium.
Now, like I, I will, I willrage, I, I will, I will, I will
lose my mind.
Like part of what I love aboutWolverine is that kind of you

(44:54):
know.
Oh man, he was in World War II,you know.
It's cool, you know like thatkind of stuff.
I really that he's seen ourearth and he's seen our culture
adapt and change and morph andevolve over these years.
He knows our shared history andthat's what makes him also

(45:17):
different from everybody else,because he also carries the pain
of the loss that he, I, I, no,no, I, I so do you see my
problem with the adamantiumbeing proposed as a new element
in this movie?

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Like, what is the end goal, you know?
Like if they're going to rebootthis, what does it matter that
they bring adamantium in thefirst place?
And if they don't reboot this,it will be even worse, because
we will suddenly have aWolverine in the mid-21st
century at this point, who isjust being, you know, turned
into wolverine.
It would be terrible.

(45:52):
So maybe are you followingalong with like our logic, like
is it, is it making sense?

Speaker 2 (45:58):
yeah, no, I, I get what you're talking about.
Uh, I'm thinking that it'sprobably gonna really sit on the
shoulders of secret wars, thatthat's probably when some of
these characters are going tocome into the fold, you know,
being brought in from anotherworld.
But yeah, no, no, I totally getwhat you're talking about.

(46:18):
I do want to because, man, we,we've been so focused I know
we're, we're, we're like so metaright now.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
We got to talk about the film itself.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Right right, right, right Well.
So obviously like Ross is thefocal point of like the film you
know, kind of like in thetrailers, like you knew that
there was going to be a Red Hulk, but there is also a villain
that's kind of hiding in theshadows.

(46:48):
What are your guys' thoughts ofhow they portrayed the leader
in this?

Speaker 3 (46:54):
If he's so smart, why didn't he get himself out of
prison?
I don't even he's been.
Ross has been stringing himalong like some mistress over
here, saying like don't worry,don't worry, don't worry, after
the kid's graduation I'll getthe divorce, but until
graduation we got to staytogether.

(47:15):
I just don't understand how Ireally.
It boggles my mind how I'msupposed to believe that this
man is so smart but he can'tjust contact someone on Reddit.
He's apparently got internetaccess.
Like you can't get anybody sent.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
like I don't, I get 15 emails a day from a Nigerian
prince.
See, the thing for me is thatit's not that he couldn't break
out of prison.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
He was there very much, so purposefully, like he,
he was but he's like a scornedlover afterwards, right after he
doesn't get what he, like hiswhole goal was to be free.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
You know, like that was, that was his whole goal.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Like, well, but but was it?
Was it free from prison or wasit free from something else?
Free?
Free from Ross?
Right, because, like the wholething was him getting back at
Ross for being slighted, and hisbest bet for that was to be
where he was, because Ross hadsomething that he needed and he

(48:22):
was able to really like, I guess, show the world the monster
that ross is, and so, like,pretty much he, he got what he
wanted.
You know, even though, like Imean, he get beaten down at the
end, he still got what he wanted.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
As far as you know, ross, so I'm, you know I was
sitting thinking about the uh,the leader.
As you know, he samuel stearns.
You know, he's a character thatwas first introduced in the
incredible hulk, which was thesecond mcu movie ever, um, in
2008, and they're finallybringing him back in a 2025

(49:00):
movie to play against an actorwho's portraying another actor
who has died, and it's toolittle, too late.
I'm sorry, it's too little, toolate.
It's 10 years too late thatthey bring these characters back
.
You know, and I'm reallyfrustrated by it, because I
don't care about the leader, Idon't care about Liv Tyler's, I

(49:24):
don't care about this dynamicthat these characters have
anymore, because it's been solong that it didn't matter.
They basically were kind ofretconned from the MCU, with
Edward Norton no longer beingthe Hulk anymore.
You know what I'm saying.
These actors were attached to aprevious version of the Hulk

(49:45):
and it became so, uh,distinguished from the rest of
the MCU in terms of, like, howit felt or what was going on.
Besides, you know, of course,um Everett Ross, that these
characters didn't make any senseto bring back anymore, and now
that they're bringing them back,it doesn't make any more.

(50:06):
It literally doesn't make anysense to me.
I have no emotional attachmentto them and I'm I was so
surprised that they brought backlive tyler and, uh, this
accurate actor who's playingsamuel stearns I don't remember
his name, but I, I could not.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
I could not believe that they did that, and I feel
like it was a weird placementthough, like because these
characters existed within anincredible hulk film, but then
they brought them back into acaptain america film, which I
mean, I agree, it made no sense.
I don't know about you, butwhen they finally show betty

(50:42):
ross, you know, live, live,tyler.
She looked a little weird,didn't she?
She looked like she was CG, shedid.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
Or just heavily filtered.
Heavily filtered, or likeobviously she was not present on
set.
You know, like even the voicethat they had her speak over the
phone to the president early onthe film, it didn't really
sound like her, it sounded likean approximation of her.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
And they promised that that was her.
They said that no, that thatwas her but I'm like dude that
does not look like her.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
She was on the phone on her way to like the beach
yeah you know, oh, hold on guys,I'll pull over santa monica
boulevard.
There's cars honking and she'sjust hey dad this is your
daughter

Speaker 1 (51:26):
that was the one who's estranged by.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
By the way, can we just acknowledge?
That they did that.
So like they were just oh, youmean, you're a strange daughter,
the one you haven't talked to,like the way they, uh, would
kind of remind the audience ofwho betty was was just, and the
fact, weird.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
You know like.
I'm sorry, but like harrisonford does not look like the
previous thunderbolt Ross in theslightest.
They should have kept themustache.
No, I heard he refused.
I don't know what they weredoing.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
No, he refused.
I think that was literally.
I think, if you look, I'malmost positive.
I came across this that thereason that he's clean-shaven is
because Harrison Ford's, likeI'm not doing it, he just
refused.
I'm not doing it Okay.
I'm not doing it Okay.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
All right.
Well, I mean.
Harrison Ford gets what he wants.
I can't argue with that logic.
But going back to the leader,samuel Stern's being the villain
in this movie, as much as I cancriticize the fact that it's
way too late, I have to agreewith Rich here.
He's way too smart to getoutsmarted so often, or at least
he, you know.
Like he claims to be so smartthat he can calculate every

(52:30):
possibility to you know apercentile chance.
But I think, like only twice inthis movie did his like you
know calculations actually likework.
Besides, you know, like themusic that he plays, that worked
out a number of times.
But there was a number ofscenarios where he's just like
there's a percentile chance thatthis will happen and you ruined

(52:52):
it.
You didn't do what I wanted youto do and it made me think of
Star Wars Rebels, where youintroduce Thrawn, who's a
character known in the novelsfor being three steps ahead, and
then in Star Wars Rebels rebels, they diminish him to a point
where, like he doesn't get anyvictories.
But we have to believe thatthis is some like master genius

(53:14):
at work, because you know that'swhat the books previously that
are no longer canon have youthink, and it gets to a point
where you know, every singletime that Thrawn gets outsmarted
, he's just like, uh, yes, this,this works perfectly in my
plans and it's, it's.
It's just a number of those youknow like, ah, you've fallen

(53:37):
right into my, my, my, my plansto, you know, be outsmarted
again.
And it.
That's how the leader felt,where, like, everything that
went wrong with him didn't makeus feel that he was a smart
villain, even though he waspurported to be so.
Okay, in the Winter Soldier,you have the AI algorithm of

(54:00):
Arnim Zola, who is controllingHydra, you know, from a digital
space.
That was a genius concept thatworked perfectly within that
movie.
This felt like such a poorsuccessor, like a poor yeah, it
was a poor successor, like it.
It felt like the same storybeats again, but on a much

(54:23):
smaller scale, um, and theytried to make it big by like,
make, like, bringing the wholeworld into it with.
You know like, uh, inter um,continental politics and stuff.
Man, I I'm sorry I I haven'tactually said any nice things
about this movie yet and I Irealized, you know, I didn't
hate it.
I liked the concept of it, Iliked the ideas that were

(54:45):
introduced.
You know like I like, I likethe fact that you know we're
learning more about how theworld is shaping up after like,
like, post, snap, post eternalswith the celestial.
I like to know what's going onon the like socioeconomics, like
scale.
Um, I want to see how theunited states is dealing with

(55:06):
india and and Japan and all that, and how they're fighting over
resources.
I think that's a really, reallycool concept, but this did not
showcase that well enough, whereit sated any of my questions
and ultimately it felt like Iwas wasting my time.
It was so rote.

(55:28):
It felt like an AI script hadbeen written and filmed In the
beginning of the movie.
When Captain America saves theday from that church, from
Giancarlo Esposito, there's thatscene where he's talking to a
number of army generals and I'venever seen in an MCU movie two

(55:53):
actors who are so clearly notlistening to the other actor but
waiting for the other actor tofinish their lines before their
next line, like it was just likeI say ABC and you say you say
DEF, and then I I say g h, I.
That that's how that sceneplayed out, and there was a

(56:13):
number of scenes in this moviewhere you could just tell the
actors were waiting for theother actor to finish their
lines before they jumped in withtheir line and it didn't feel
like acting, it just felt likereading from a script and it it
really bothered me, man, likethere was, there was a lot in
this movie that like could havebeen cool conceptually but fell
so far from the mark um, thatyou know, like I, I I've have

(56:37):
loved from the mcu and right Idon't know like it

Speaker 2 (56:41):
fell it fell short, no, no, but I mean, like the
thing is, is that like that'sthe the whole thing and that's
how?
That's how we ended up on thatwhole tangent prior to this
discussion is because, you know,this is what I'm talking about
with the mcu, like takingmissteps.
This is a misstep and this iswhy, you know, I mean, obviously

(57:02):
there there had been.
I mean, for a while I would saythat you know, I I hadn't
really felt the push to go see a, an mcu film, but like,
definitely, after seeing this,I'm like, dude, I really just
don't care at this point.
And this is where I'm like, youknow, I mean, yeah, I'll
probably go and see thefantastic four, just because

(57:25):
that is like a Fox IP.
But you know that that's whatI'm saying.
Like, for me, I won't.
I wouldn't care if they didn't,if they said that they were
taking like a five, like a fiveyear hiatus on making movies.
I would not.
I really it wouldn't bother meit would actually give us a time
.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
Huh, did you watch Thunderbolts?

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Uh, Did you watch Thunderbolts?
No, not yet.
Yeah, not yet.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
We'll have to cover that when it comes to Disney+.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, I'll look into it and I mean I'm pretty sure
that I'll like it, but I'm alsofairly certain that it's still
not going to live up to thatquality that we're used to.
We'll probably like it a lotmore than this.
But the fact that we, you know,the fact that you're stacking
that up to a movie like this andyou're saying like, yeah,

(58:13):
that's the better movie, it'snot, it's you know, it's you,
you're punch, it's at like adifferent, like you know, just
weight class, you know thatthat's probably a welterweight
and this is a lightweight, youknow do you guys read comics
like now?

Speaker 3 (58:30):
do you have you guys been reading comics last couple
years?

Speaker 1 (58:32):
the past year.
No, so I prior to that I have.
I have been reading, I I wasreading pretty regularly yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
So I was reading, like lots of marvel stuff for,
like I'd say, a strong 10 yearswhere I was reading 15 comics,
20 comics a week, uh, and I wasreading almost every title.
Uh, there there was almost I Iwould.

(59:01):
I would honestly just have tokind of open it and not like the
artwork to not give it a chance.
I didn't.
You know, that's why I ended upenjoying squirrel girl so much,
because I gave it a shot when Inormally wouldn't have before.
Squirrel girl is awesome, yeah,no, it really is.
And I just wonder if, like youknow, there are those lulls,
there are those times where I Idon't particularly like, uh, a

(59:23):
story arc or something, but I Ikind of just hang on and and
part of the allure is almostlike the characters are always
there, right, they're alwaysthere to come back to, like
that's the comfort, right, it'snot.
It's not like I go back,because every time I'm I'm
really enjoying it.
Almost it's like it's part ofmy, the fabric of my universe.

(59:43):
Is that the I care about thesecharacters and even if I'm a
little disinterested, I stillkind of hang on.
And I know, when I was a kid Ididn't care, I just kept reading
for years and years and youknow, as long as I had the money
I was reading comics.
So the only break I the onlyreason I really took a break was
I was just a broke early 20year old.
So when I started having moremoney I started buying comics

(01:00:03):
again.
I I wonder if we're just at thatpoint like in the mcu, where
it's just like there's so muchto tell and they're just kind of
lulls a little bit.
I don't, we're never gonna get,we're never.
I don't think we're ever gonnaget the feeling of seeing steve
rogers and iron man and captainamerica I mean, I'm sorry, uh,

(01:00:25):
captain America, iron man, thor,black Widow, you know, all
together and like that, thathype, that feel that like, oh,
my goodness, I can't believewe're seeing this Like, what can
they really do at this point?
That is going to wow us again.
I almost feel like.
I know they're adult movies,but it's like a kid's franchise

(01:00:46):
almost, where you just keepgoing because they're the
characters are there.
I don't know, I know thatsounds like I'm making excuses.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
No, that's a good point.
Yeah, the idea of the firstAvengers movie.
Nowadays it happens a coupletimes a year, but back in 2012,
when they first brought thosefranchises together, there had
been nothing.
Nothing like that to a degreeand and a success.
There had never been a successlike that prior to that point,

(01:01:17):
where, like it was the, it wasgreater than the sum of its
parts in terms of, like, howmuch the box office, you know,
uh, picked up after that and itjust steamrolled into what.
What ended up happening?
Uh, with endgame.
You know what was it?

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
18, 19 films later yeah, you know, I don't know if
you guys like, when streetfighter the movie came out it
was not great, you know, but itwas like the first time that my
friends and I were like, oh man,it's the video.
Look, there's vega and there'sm bison, and like we were just
happy to see them on the screen,like our, our standards were so

(01:01:51):
low.
Like, go back and watch streetfighter it's.
It's a rough movie, you know,but I think it was just the
novelty, and the novelty is wornoff and and, and, and they're.
They've played their card withtheir bit, with their biggest,
most exciting characters, andthey're they're, you know.
I think that hopefully you'reright, dakota, that we get this
reboot.

(01:02:12):
But what is that even going tomean?
Is it a reboot for fans?
Is it a new entry point for anew generation of kids to come
in?
Because I don't know if this isalmost like a cyclical.
I don't know if this is somesort of cycle where you'll get
into it, you'll really enjoythat phase and then you phase
out.
I don't know if this is somesort of cycle where you'll get
into it, you'll really enjoythat phase and then you phase
out.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
No, I see what you're saying.
Yeah, I think the issue is time.
It doesn't work the same waythat comics do, where you can
pick up a comic at any point andthe characters are roughly the
same age as they were 20 yearsago.
It doesn't work like that inreal life, with real acting.
You're going to have to changeactors eventually, especially if

(01:02:53):
you want to keep reusing thecharacters.
But as it stands currently,we're in a phase where we're now
treating the sidekicks ofcharacters as the main
characters and we're trying tomake the sidekicks of the
sidekicks just regular sidekicks.
At this point, um and that'sthat's a big part of why, like

(01:03:14):
falcon and the winter soldierdidn't really do anything for me
, because or sorry, not falconand the winter soldier, captain
america, brave new world um,it's because we've had sam
wilson be this sidekickcharacter for several films.
At this point he had his own TVshow and all that with Winter
Soldier, and in that TV showwe're introduced to Joaquin

(01:03:35):
Torres, who plays the sidekick'ssidekick, and in this movie he
gets bumped up to regularsidekick and he's trying to take
on the role of the Falcon, whois the second to Captain America
.
And I guess my issue with thatis why not just make the Falcon

(01:03:57):
its own like top tier like.
Why not make the Falcon its ownlike top tier hero?
I'm not.
I'm not suggesting that.
I don't think it's a good ideafor cap or for sam wilson to be
captain america, but denigratingfalcon as a lesser hero to
captain america like this is atiered system that you have to
like, level up to gives thewhole sidekick thing meaning and

(01:04:20):
lessens the roles for futuresidekicks down the line.
If that makes any sense, it'sjust.
It's just like you said.
It's a cyclical thing where,like, you level up sam wilson to
captain america, but now who'sgoing to be the falcon, who's
going to be the sidekick to thenew captain america?
well, it's the, the sidekick tothe falcon.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Uh, it's, it could be like an evolution in a way,
because like it's so, so like,think about, like batman or
robin right, it's hard to seerobin as, like you know,
somebody other than a sidekickto batman, but then when he
becomes nightwing, you're like,okay, now, like it's like this,
this character is his own hero,you know it's, he's like his own

(01:05:00):
, it's like batman, but likedifferent, you know.
And so I, I totally agree withyou.
So like, maybe not as thefalcon, but like you know, say
that.
So I, I totally agree with you.
So like, maybe not as theFalcon, but like you know, say
that Sam Wilson was the Falconand he stayed the Falcon.
You know, instead of, yeah, himbeing a sidekick character,
there could have been like anevolution of that character.

(01:05:21):
Maybe you know there could bean evolution for that character
with, uh, joaquin Torres.
But you know, honestly, to tellyou the truth, like, and it, I
like that you brought up theFalcon and Winter Soldier.
Honestly, to tell you the truth, I like that show more than I
like this movie.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
I thought you said the F in Winter Soldier and I
was like, whoa, this is verypowerful, anthony, I don't know
if you were reading at this time, but there was a point in time
where, essentially, amadeus Chobecame Hulk, jane Foster became
Thor, sam Wilson became CaptainAmerica, right, uh, and I think
there was.

(01:05:58):
There was another one, uh, butoh, Riri Williams came out as
kind of Ironheart, right and and, and I think, uh, miss, and,
then right, I mean, right aroundthe same time, I think, miss
Marvel, uh, kamala Harris, uh,not Kamala Harris, kamala Khan,
kam, come on, came around, andfor me kamala khan was the only
one that really stuck and, andmaybe that's because I I had

(01:06:20):
less of an established versionor vision in my head of miss
marvel overall, but that was arough time for marvel, like the
fans were not happy and you know, and it was.
They were trying to take the ipor the hero's name and put
somebody else there and make itwork.
And, anthony, to your point,the thing that Marvel didn't do

(01:06:41):
was they didn't have this personbe a new person, they had this
person try to be the person thatpeople knew as somebody else.
And yeah, you know what thatmaybe worked with Ghost Rider,
but I don't think you can't justpull that off with marquee
characters, right, and I thinkthat's part of the issue also is
that some audiences you know,yeah, you're learning that Sam

(01:07:05):
Wilson and look, I like the SamWilson part, I do.
But you could even see thatthey did it a little bit with,
they did that storyline a littlebit in Thor, love and Thunder
or no is it Love?

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
and with with?

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
uh, you know and and they did and look it's, it's the
movies.
It's weird, but it's the movieswhere they're almost kind of
like replacing some of thesecharacters where people are less
than enthused because you knowthat that's that lack of
investment.
You know, and and and dakota,you said it before.
You said, time's the issuewhere you just pick up and put

(01:07:38):
down a comic.
But the other problem is, isthat time's an issue also with
the actors?
Right, comics freeze time.
The characters don't have toage, and they do here and, as
you've chronicled very, in avery detailed way, part of the
other problem is this damncontinuity, right, where,
because you got, uh, peoplepaying attention to dates and
and they have to be, they haveto do things that make sense and

(01:08:03):
they're they're kind of gettingthemselves trapped because of
the constraints of time and andspace that comics don't have to
inhabit.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
I've I've come up with a like reviewing method
that I don't always employ foreverything, but if I'm if I'm
like trying to be reallycritical about something, um, or
I'm trying to understand why itworked or why it didn't, I'll
employ it.
And it's actually influencedheavily by thanos's infinity

(01:08:32):
gauntlet, it's's the sixinfinity stones.
You know they focus ondifferent aspects of you know
you got reality, mind, time,space and so on and so forth.
And if you take those concepts,say time, let's just focus on
time, because that's a big partof what I do with my YouTube

(01:08:54):
channel is focus on, like the.
That's a big part of what I dowith my YouTube channel.
It's focused on the timelinesand continuity and stuff.
You can pinpoint how well amovie realizes time, because
time is a concept that isencompassed in every single
story ever told.
If you say a sentence that thisperson went here and then he

(01:09:15):
went here, that's a story and ithas a linear like one, two and
three.
You know like time is anintegral part of that story and
it's a part of every story.
And then you have space.
You know, like another way youcan visualize this is in I'm
going to bring up Star Wars,obi-wan Kenobi.

(01:09:37):
There's a lot of visual aid tothe idea that space is very
important, because what you cansee on camera may not translate
to what the script actuallyentails.
So there's several scenes inthe visual of Obi-Wan Kenobi
where you can say wait a minute,those characters can just walk
around that obstacle.

(01:09:58):
That's on-screen space.
You can review, you can critiquethis piece based on the space,
the spatial awareness of theactors, the direction and the
way that the script unfurls.
You can review things on ascale of reality.
You can say that this isrealistic because in this

(01:10:21):
universe this makes sense,because in XYZ episode of Doctor
who they've already establishedthat this happens.
So this has always been apossibility in this episode.
So you can't really argue thatpoint.
So you can bring reality as it,as it works within that
universe, into this.
You know world or you can keepgoing with this logic.

(01:10:45):
You know Mind Stone.
You can bring real, real worldcalculations into things.
You can.
Soul Stone, you can.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
You can bring in like real world or like
relationships between charactersyeah, man, it's, it's going,
it's it's going rough for the,uh, the mcu these days.
I just, I don't know, man it's.
You know, like, like, I'llagree with you about, you know,
a little bit of the excitementwith the fantastic four.

(01:11:13):
But you know, I mean I still Ithink I'm going into that one
cautiously, optimistic, andusually when I go into something
like that that seems promising.
You know I'm I'm proven wrong.
You know I the, you know liveaction one piece.
You know I went to that onecautiously, like, you know, not

(01:11:34):
too sure it ended up being a lotbetter than I thought.

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
You're excited about Superman.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
Yeah, honestly, it looks good man.
To me it looks good, and it'sbeen a while since we've had a
solid DC film.
The thing is that we need DC tosucceed so that Marvel gets
better.
When there's no competition,you could just throw out
whatever crap, you Just whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
People will just go to see it.
Competition breeds creativity,so I do agree about that.
I don't know why I was talkingabout my Infinity Gauntlet
ranking system just now.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
What?
Maybe you saw that was wrong.
That didn't work in this movie.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Oh yeah, I'm not going to go into all that.
I was just, you know, like theMarvel Cinematic Universe is and
can be, a creative genius.
It can be a realm of, you know,creative possibility.
There are so many charactersfor it to play with and, unlike
Andor, which we covered a coupleweeks back and we're going to
cover next week spoiler alertare we no I thought we were

(01:12:38):
waiting two more years.
We're gonna wait two more yearsuh, no, I'm kidding, we're
covering it next week.
Uh, and our season two episodes, one through six, unlike andor,
which, when backed into acorner of continuity or like you
know, like they get backed intoa corner of canon.
They thrive there.
When you back sam wilson, asthey get backed into a corner of
canon, they thrive there.
When you back sam wilson ascaptain america into a corner of

(01:13:00):
canon in the mcu, it doesn'tmake any sense.
Sorry, I'm like losing my voice.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
I think, I think and I'm not sure if it's whoever's
overseeing everything, uh, but Ifeel like the star wars writers
that are hired and maybe Imight be, I might be way off,
maybe they're just very good atwhat they do, but I feel like
they know it so well.
There's something about that,and I wonder how many people

(01:13:29):
working on this project knowthese characters so sometimes
you need somebody to thinkoutside the box.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
Remember we were talking about how the rogue one
director who is also over and or, really was not a star wars fan
and really was not all aboutthat that uh, you know that
series, you know that world, buthe wrote it differently.
He wrote it as it was.

(01:13:58):
It was themed as, like rogueone, was a war movie.
It was a straight-up war moviebut it happened to be set in the
star wars universe and that'swhat a lot of marvel movies
thrived in there were.
There were themed movies thatjust happened to be in the mcu,
like one one that I really liked.

(01:14:20):
That was the winter soldier.
That was a, that was a spy,that was like a spy thriller
film but in the mcu.
And so the that's what we gotwith andor and I think that that
a lot of the mcu needs to kindof go back to that, like you
know.
Go back to.
I mean, I know that this onecould, you could consider this

(01:14:40):
one like a political film, butthey were still trying to do too
much on a grander scale that itjust didn't work for this film
what was up with the leaderrandomly saying I'm the hero,
like in all your infinite wisdom, you cannot tell that you're
the villain?

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
I I was.
I was really like boggled atthat line choice uh by the, by
the writers.
But yeah, I, I to go along withwhat you're saying, anthony the
, uh, the mcu has marvelparliament.
The MCU has Marvel Parliamentversus Star Wars having the
Lucasfilm Story Group.
The Marvel Parliament isbasically just a bunch of

(01:15:22):
producers who meet togetherregularly to discuss what the
latest is on each of theirrespective projects, because
they do group things up intodifferent.
You know like you get thesefilms, you get these shows
whatever.
You know like you get thesefilms, you get these shows
whatever.
The Lucasfilm Story Group hasmembers for each section of
continuity, whether it's conceptart or timeline or the way

(01:15:43):
creatures are portrayed onscreen and on the page.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
And you know, like there's there's a way, way, way
more attention to detail withinlike continuity within the
Lucasfilm Story Group than thereever will be within Marvel
Parliament, as, as the you know,the way it stands currently.
So I think that's part of theissue, yeah, man.
So you know, we're kind ofwe're kind of getting a little
bit deep in there.
Uh, let's get some last minutethoughts on this movie rich, how
about?
You rich, throw it, throw itdown.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
Look, I mean I'm going to be honest, here Sitting
on my couch putting that onDisney Plus yeah, why not?
I cannot say to anybody outthere, don't watch this film.
Now, if I had watched it in thetheater, I would have said, eh,

(01:16:33):
wait for it to come on DisneyPlus.
But to spend a couple hours onmy couch watching some marvel
content, I was fine, you know, I.
I just I've lowered myexpectations and I'm not sure if
that's because I'm 43, right,and I don't know if I, I don't
know if I get excited as muchanymore.
You know, uh, in terms of, like, highs and lows, I don't get as

(01:16:54):
as high but I also don't get aslow, so I'm kind of more in the
middle, you know.
So did it give me more contentabout characters that I
generally love?
Yeah, did it give me somescenes that I I kind of enjoyed
and enjoyed seeing the way Ithought the fight, some of the
flying scenes, and the way thatthey kind of incorporated the

(01:17:15):
Wakandan, the wakandan armor, Ithink what did a really good job
of kind of explaining how samwilson can do all these things
despite the fact that he doesn'thave the super soldier serum,
you know.
So I mean, I mean, but thetruth is this, and and and this
happens in the comic too, youknow, he's not captain america,
he's he's falcon, he's samwilson, you know, and that's

(01:17:38):
okay.
Uh, but I, I, I think this isfine, that's it.
It's fine, I get, it's not good, it's not bad, it's it's just,
it exists.
It's better than secretinvasion.
You're not going to slam yourfist and be angry about stuff.
You're not going to throw yourhands up and be like I can't
believe it, but you're also notgoing to be like wow, that was

(01:17:59):
really awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
If you had to rank it , where would you rank it?
On one to ten.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
That's a tough one.
I mean, I don't know how muchMarvel stuff goes over seven
these days.
I'm not lying, I put it at a.
I put it at this, I don't.
Okay, passing of my school is65, so I'm gonna say 6.5.
You did not get out of the park, kid, all right, but uh, you
know you're not going to summerschool um, this is a top five

(01:18:28):
mcu movie for me I really lovedit, you know I I'm sorry you cut
my laughing out.
I'm sorry that's too muchthat's staying.

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
That's staying right where it is.
No, it's, it's a genuinely goodmovie.
It's.
It's a really fun popcorn flick.
I'm I'm pissed that I didn'tsee it in theaters.
Um, really nice seeing livetyler back.
Really nice seeing the theleader back and the special
effects when it comes to the RedHulk, and then like the blown
out scenery around them.
You know like it was gorgeous.

(01:19:03):
It reminded me of, you know,past times I went to DC and it
was all like destroyed and stuff.
It was really.
We'll watch again for sure.
Anthony, what are your thoughts?

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
Well, mine is that it's definitely not a movie,
theater film, something that,yes, that waiting to.
I mean, obviously it's onDisney Plus now, but if we were
covering it while it was stillin the theaters, definitely yeah
, it would be a Disney Plusmovie.
Rich, you definitely gave it alot of grace.

(01:19:38):
I would give this thing a 4.5.
Not, I mean, it's not possible.
As an mcu film it's okay, it'sdecent, but like I can't put
this over a five, I really Ijust can just can't.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
I really I'm going to , I'm going to disagree with you
here.
The way I like in this movie isit's it's like the first three
seasons of agents of shield, youknow, like when they had that
big finale episode where theybrought back some real big MCU
cameos, uh, like Samuel Jackson,for like a scene, um, and then

(01:20:14):
the rest of it was like asemi-political thriller slash,
you know like sci-fi series.
You know that's how this felt.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
It was a really good early Agents of SHIELD finale
you know, I think, guys, that Imust report that it seems that
Dakota is actually a Skrull andhas been for this entire episode
I thinkota broke somewherealong the lines yeah, yeah, I'm
uh, you know what will fix me,though, kind of like how, uh,

(01:20:44):
you know, everett thunderboltross was taking those pills that
juiced him up.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
You guys need to juice this podcast up with a
five-star juicy review.
We really thrive on that, justlike Everett Ross was able to
live on in another actor throughthose pills.
We require your feedback sothat we, as a podcast, can live

(01:21:12):
another episode.
You want to be able to see uscover Andor, season 2, correct?
Yes, so what you're going tohave to do is you're going to
have to go onto your localpodcast app, find the button
that says five stars, make sureto review it and comment
something in the comments downbelow, because we love to see
that.
Thank you so much for listeningto us here for our 123rd

(01:21:32):
episode of Project ecology.
If you want to check out any ofour socials, be sure to check
down in the show notes, uh, sothat you don't miss any of our
uh, random outbursts online.
Uh, yeah, that'll, that'll doit for us here.
My name is dakota.

Speaker 2 (01:21:48):
Have a juicy one, friends this episode has been
sponsored by thunderbolts.
Ross juice pills bye y'all.

Speaker 1 (01:21:57):
Hey, the wolverine actually mattered in this
episode, okay.