The real estate industry often celebrates size—door count, revenue, market share—but what if success looked different? What if it meant building a boutique management company that prioritizes quality over quantity and allows you to design the life you actually want?
Mike Goldstein, founder of HubKey Real Estate in downtown Philadelphia, joins us to share his refreshingly contrarian approach to property management. Having grown up in his grandmother's motel business before purchasing his first investment property in 2008, Mike brings a unique perspective as someone who entered property management after being both an investor and real estate agent.
Managing 110 doors focused exclusively on A, B, and C neighborhoods within a two-mile radius of Philadelphia's city center, Mike candidly discusses the painful lessons learned from what he calls "over-software-ication"—attempting to solve fundamental business problems with technology before establishing clear policies and procedures. "I essentially built a roof before I had a foundation," he reveals, detailing the challenging but necessary process of stripping away complicated solutions to properly document the critical thinking required in property management.
Perhaps most compelling is Mike's ultimate vision: becoming "irrelevant" in his own company within five years. While many chase door count as the primary measure of success, he poses a different question: "Would you rather manage 1,000 doors working 80 hours a week or 100 doors working 10 hours?" This philosophy has shaped everything from his hiring decisions to his innovative approach to realtor referrals, which generate 90% of his business.
Whether you're just starting in property management or looking to refocus an established business, this conversation offers practical insights on building systems that scale, creating processes that allow for critical thinking, and designing a company that serves your life rather than consuming it. The path to freedom isn't always about getting bigger—sometimes it's about getting better.
Join fellow property management entrepreneurs and 6 expert coaches in a small, private high level event at a mansion style venue with a private chef and personally selected attendees to maximize the value you receive while at the event.
Join the waitlist for additional information here: https://ONYXwaitlist.com
Save the dates! July 13th - 16th, 2025
visit pmsuccess.com for more value packed property management related information or to hire Tony as your property management coach.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Property Management Success
Podcast, where we interviewleaders in the industry to
uncover the secrets toprofitability, efficiency and
achieving true freedom, whetherit's your time, money or
lifestyle.
I'm your host, tony Klein, andI'm here to help you build a
wildly successful propertymanagement business.
Let's get to it.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Property Management
(00:22):
Success Podcast.
Today, I'm excited to be joinedby Mike Goldstein with HubKey
Real Estate.
Mike, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Tony, yeah, absolutely so.
Mike, tell our audience alittle bit about who you are,
how you got into propertymanagement and where your office
is located.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yep, no, absolutely yeah.
So I got started in thebusiness as a young kid.
Long story short, my grandmomwas able to escape, basically
being rounded up by the Polishpolice, made it over to America,
eventually made her way to thevery southern tip of New Jersey
in a town called Wildwood Crest,bought a small motel when I was
able to sustain her stuff onthat, bought a piece of land and
(01:04):
built a 46-unit motel.
So I grew up in the hospitalityindustry.
Right, call it short-termrentals, whatever you want.
It was a motel on the beach ina summertime.
That was my life.
It was incredible, didn't knowanything else.
You're kind of surrounded in alittle bubble down there, very
small community, andunfortunately they sold it right
.
Family businesses are difficultand the family to me and I see
(01:28):
it now, family is more importantthan anything.
So I ended up selling thebusiness.
I always had that itch for realestate, went away to college and
graduated college and mygrandmom offers to buy me a car.
I'm like I don't want a car, Ihave no interest, worst timing
ever.
She helped me buy a house inAugust of 2008.
First house I see, pulled in,full price offer.
(01:48):
Didn't know it, researchanything whatsoever, but she
helped me buy my first house andthat was the first time the
light bulb really went off thatI can build wealth with real
estate.
I've been addicted ever since.
From there, I ended up gettingmy real estate license in 2011,.
Even though I know a lot ofproperty managers give crap to
real estate agents who get inthe property management business
(02:10):
.
I just was managing my ownproperties.
I was able to go out and sellduring the day, night to weekend
, but was able to reinvest inmyself and built a little
portfolio for myself, got mybroker's license in 2018.
And then, late 2021, I openedmy own brokerage called Hubkey
Real Estate in downtownPhiladelphia.
Philly is a small city ofneighborhoods.
(02:33):
I'm in a neighborhood right nowcalled Fishtown, which is
awesome.
We manage 110 doors focused ondowntown Philadelphia.
Try to keep the units a littlebit higher end.
It doesn't always work outperfectly that way, but I'm a
big believer in quality overquantity, and that's a lot of
(02:55):
what I talk to my potentialclients about is.
The goal is not to grow huge.
I love a real estate guy in theindustry.
His name's Chad Carson and hewrote a book Small but Mighty
and it really just exemplifiedeverything of how I like to look
at what I build for myself andmy family.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Tell me a little bit about.
There's a few things that I wasexcited to, a few reasons why I
was excited to have you on.
The first is you specialize inthat downtown market.
The second is the size of yourportfolio.
The third is the fact that yougot in first as an investor,
then a real estate agent andthen in property management.
(03:37):
And we see there's generallytwo ways that people get into
property management.
They either are a real estatebroker they're looking for a way
to expand the ability to bringin income or they're a real
estate investor that says Ican't find anybody that can
manage my properties as well asI can, and so they start a
property management business.
(03:58):
You sort of went through bothof those paths.
You started as a real estateinvestor.
How many doors did you havebefore you decided, hey look,
I'm going to start doingthird-party management?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, and I'm still there today.
I'm at 20 units, all in alittle concentrated pocket of
Philadelphia, and I got there.
I used to basically have anassistant who would help me with
my real estate sales things andmanage my own properties, and
when my sales business grew toobig I went out and looked for
third party managers and I justcouldn't find anything that I
(04:33):
liked.
So I just kept the assistantand kept trucking on.
From there I got into thebrokerage business.
I worked for someone who's beennumber one in the Philadelphia
market for 35 years and he hadthe opportunity to buy a
franchise and we turned thataround and that kind of opened
my eyes to everything thathappens on the back end of a
brokerage that nobody reallytalks about and how hard it
(04:56):
really is.
But someone said something tome one day that stuck with me.
It was early in my real estatesales career and you're only as
good as your last deal.
Stuck with me.
It was early in my real estatesales career and you're only as
good as your last deal.
So that was kind of the switchthat went on that propelled my
real estate investing career.
And then how do I blend thereal estate investing piece with
actually building a businessand not just having a job as a
(05:17):
real estate agent.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I think there's a similar saying that we used to
float around.
It's at of the month as a realestate broker.
At the first of the monthyou're unemployed again until
you get that next deal undercontract.
The nice thing about propertymanagement as we all know if
we're listening to the show isthat recurring income.
(05:39):
It's generating that incomemonth over month from those
contracts, those managementagreements.
It.
You know it's not a lot ofmoney, though when you first get
one contract or two contracts,you know it's.
You're stacking nickels to tryto make a dollar and and even
that is hard to earn an incomeon.
So did you immediately switchover from brokerage to property
(06:03):
management?
Was it sort of over frombrokerage to property management
?
Was it sort of I sold a fewinvestment doors and they needed
management, so I I did.
I'm curious about the intent ofthe switch.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I would say it was.
It was a slow play.
I like to do my best to leadwith revenue.
So, and to this day still, Istill represent builders and
developers to sell theirproducts.
So I tried doing it while I wasstill at my old brokerage and I
just ran into some hurdles withthe PA real estate law in
(06:35):
Pennsylvania and unfortunatelyhad to leave that brokerage to
go open up my own.
I don't represent any buyers,that's just not a good use of my
own.
I don't represent any buyers,that's just not a good use of my
time.
But it was a slow accumulationof hey can I build out the
systems to manage properties.
It took obviously longer thanwhat I thought it was going to
(06:57):
take because it's a lot harderthan anybody likes to tell you.
But I just limit the amount ofsales deals that I do.
And it's hard because thatquick hit of five figures is
really really hard to turn down.
But I'm finally at a point nowwhere the snowball has picked up
on the property management sidewhere I can even be more
(07:18):
selective of what I dorepresenting sellers, which is
still a big part of my business.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Tell me about.
You mentioned something thatthat piques my attention.
You mentioned that people don'ttalk about how hard it is to
get started, and I know we havepeople in the audience that are
listening that are of alldifferent sizes, various size
companies.
Some of them are in thatmultiple thousands of doors,
Some of them are just gettingstarted.
(07:44):
What is some of that stuff thatyou go through when you're
starting up a propertymanagement company that you find
out only after you've kind ofjumped in?
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I think I don't know the term for this, but it's the
over software occasion for this.
But it's the over softwareoccasion.
I don't think that's a word.
But everyone tries to sellevery piece of software in the
industry to like, automate ormake the next thing easier.
But if you don't have yourpolicies and procedures already
(08:18):
laid out beforehand, it turnsinto a nightmare.
And that's exactly what happenedto me.
I got sold too early on all theshiny, flashy things in the
industry and I essentially builta roof before I had a
foundation and I had to tear itdown.
(08:40):
And that rebuilding processstill isn't done.
Today I'm less than a monthaway from what I'm calling D-Day
.
But I just think nobody wantsto slow down, especially and
this is why realtors get a bador real estate agents kind of
get a bad rap right, becausethey just want to go out and
sell 25 contracts next monthwithout really thinking about
(09:02):
how are you going to explain toanother person other than
yourself how to actually executeall these things?
And that's I mean, that's themain thing that got me jammed up
.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
How would, if you were to go back and do it again
and start over, or if you wereto advise somebody on getting
ramped up, getting started, whatwould you do differently?
How would you start outdifferently?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I would start with just my 20 units and I would
pretend that I'm an owner client, not the owner of the company.
Because I didn't realize howbig I didn't realize the gap in
communication, relayingeverything that I do just in my
head, naturally to a third party.
So I probably would havestarted sooner, before I
(09:48):
actually took clients on, ofjust treating myself as a third
party investor.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I like that, one of the things you know I got into
the real estate and propertymanagement business back in the
year 2000.
So I've been in it for a longtime.
I've seen a lot of technologychange.
I've seen a lot of standardsand expectations change, and I
remember when I would first workwith clients I would tell them
(10:14):
if you hear from me, if I callyou, pick up the phone because
it's bad news and we got to talk.
You are going to grant me allthe rights and authority I need
to manage this property on yourbehalf, and so I'm going to do
that.
But if there comes a time wherethere is a decision that needs
to be made, money that's spent,that's above my authorization
(10:37):
limit, we need to chat.
And for a long time my businessran fine like that.
But what wound up happening isI would have clients that would
terminate with me because theywould say well, I've been paying
you for two years and it justseems like it's an extra expense
because everything just goes sosmooth.
Well, it goes so smooth becauseI'm juggling, you know,
(10:59):
firebombs in the background forthem, firebombs in the
background for them.
But the communication, I think,is a big part of the service we
deliver.
That in the back end isirrelevant until they know about
it up front.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's something we're going through
now, and finding checkpoints tohave happy conversations with
them, to tell them whensomething went well, is
definitely a place that we'refocused on.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, you and I have spent some time talking about
what we term the life cycle ofproperty management, where we
have the four categories and thefive phases of the life cycle,
and being able to identify thosetouch points during those life
cycle phases I think makes iteasier to sort of preemptively,
(11:48):
or at least proactively, knowwhen you're going to communicate
those touch points, when to askfor the reviews, when to be a
little bit more sensitive withthe communication, when they've
got a vacancy, things like that.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, where the biggest jump in my business has
been making the right hiresright.
Hiring that property managerthat has the softer candor than
I do myself to talk andnegotiate with those tenants
right During maintenance.
Every maintenance issue is aemergency, but like stopping and
really thinking about how we'recommunicating with each one you
(12:25):
know whether it's a client,resident or vendor has has been
huge and you're the.
The framework that you providedfor us has just exponentially
made our company grow.
You can't even put a price tagon it.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Well, I appreciate that feedback.
Let's let's dive in a littlebit to to that framework,
specifically the framework andthe documentation and all of
that.
But you are at a size right nowa portfolio size where, with
the framework, with havingsomebody work for you, you now
have the ability to open upwhat's possible, because it's
(13:04):
under that 100 doors, 150 doorsit's basically you being the
brains of the outfit and thenmaybe you hire an assistant that
does what you say and as youget to that 100, 150 doors, it
has to start changing or youstart burning out.
It's just too much and youcan't just say I have an
assistant but I can't tell themwhat to do because I'm so busy
(13:26):
doing what needs to be done thatthe assistant is just sitting
there waiting for stuff to do.
What's the plan moving forwardnow that you've got this solid
framework?
You've got somebody else onyour team that's able to help
you move this thing forward.
What's the future look likeover the next, say, 12 to 24
months?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, I would definitely say it's an upgrade
of talent.
You know, I started with remoteteam members but I found
they've only can get you to acertain level.
So yesterday, right, I just putup a new job description.
I'm sorry, I hope my currentteam member doesn't watch this,
but I mean, it's just that'sbusiness, right.
We need to upgrade the level oftalent to critically think
(14:09):
through issues.
So I can only do so much right.
I can only record so many loomsa day to put in our database.
To explain things, I needactual thinkers.
So I'm a huge believer inpeople and up until yesterday
I've always led with revenue tohire.
But I had a breakthroughconversation with one of my good
(14:29):
friends.
Another investor owned aproperty management company as
well and he pushed me over theedge to go invest in the
business, just like I wouldinvest in another property.
I built this business on sheerbroker referrals.
I've done little to no saleswhatsoever and gotten to where I
am in two years, so I've provedthe concept.
I had to slow it down a littlebit because I got out ahead of
(14:52):
my skis, but I'm at a reallygood place now where the
business is under control.
I'm not burnt out.
I'm spending time with myfamily all nights and weekends,
so now it's all right.
I have the confidence to goinvest in people.
That's really what it lookslike and it's continued to what
I call just trim the fat Rightand where we just did it.
(15:13):
Last month, for the first time,we let somebody go because they
just really didn't follow, theydidn't meet our criteria, and I
finally felt confident to havethat conversation and let them
go, mike.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
We talk a lot about building a championship team.
You've heard me say that overand over, and part of that
championship team is we have achampionship formula that we
walk through and the first oneis your game plan, which is the
mission, vision, core values,target, client profile, income
and revenue streams.
Then we move on to the policies.
(15:46):
We've already sort of touchedon the importance of documenting
your policies before you startcreating your processes.
The policy is what we do andwhy we do it.
The process is how we do it,but that gets a lot of attention
.
The next couple of steps I thinkpeople tend to skip over, which
is defining the positions thatyou need on the team and getting
(16:10):
really clear about the rolesand responsibilities.
And then, once you have that nowyou go and you say, okay, now
that I have this positiondefined, who's the player I need
to recruit to fill that?
And I think that's you'veexperienced that now with the
remote team members, and I'm notsaying that all remote team
members are bad and that alllocal people are better, but
(16:30):
what you realized was you hadsomebody that you were playing
in a position that was not theright player to play that
position and, I think,recognizing that once you start
top leveling, every person thatwe add to the team needs to
raise the standards and thequality of the team.
I think once that clicks andyou start to see that in action,
you start to see that, wow, Iam.
(16:52):
I'm able to do a lot more nowthan I was before because I was
having to handhold so muchbefore with the other team
member.
I think it's just reallyimportant to set those standards
and then hold peopleaccountable and if they're not
cutting it just like on aprofessional sports team,
nothing personal, but I thinkit's time you get traded.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, the, my whole philosophy has been kind of
re-engineered around that to getto exactly what you're talking
about, and you can see it comeswith more pressure for me, right
Of holding people accountable,like just being better at candor
, not just, I want everybody tolove me and like me, and it
makes some people uncomfortable,but they're going to
(17:34):
self-select their way out andthat's okay.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, so you, you're growing the portfolio and you
are doing it in a specializedway.
You mentioned quality overquantity and staying focused.
Tell me a little bit about thespecialty that you have in the
marketplace, working in downtownPhilly.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah.
So if you look at Philadelphia,city Hall is essentially the
center of the city.
Ben Franklin designed it.
And as you go out with a radius, if you think of it on a scale,
from A neighborhoods all theway down to F neighborhoods, the
further you get out from centercity, the worse the
neighborhoods get.
The lowest I'll go is a Cneighborhood and that takes you
(18:18):
about two miles each way, twomile radius from center city,
each way.
Two mile radius from centercity.
So luckily, you know, downtownis obviously dense and I've made
it a point to stay in contactand add value to those real
estate agents who do a lot ofbusiness in those areas.
So I go out and do apresentation called how to lure
(18:38):
to land in Philadelphia that Iput on in front of teams and it
essentially arms them with thetools to sell more homes to real
estate investors From there.
Right, it's just the trickleeffect of.
You know the company's name isHubKey.
I look at that as the hub ofthe wheel right and the spokes
of those real estate agents.
(19:00):
There are horror stories aboutproperty managers all over the
country.
Most I don't know about, butthere's a bunch in Philadelphia.
I spoke to one woman literallyyesterday with a property in an
A-plus neighborhood.
Her property manager has notsent her a 1099.
It's March 13th today.
She doesn't get a monthly P&L.
She just did a $5,600 turnoverand has no bills and no idea
(19:24):
what it was for.
So unfortunately, the bar islow in Philadelphia for me to
come in and be selective aboutthose pieces of business that I
get to pick up.
So it's really just Actuallythe podcast that you had the
other day with the title agentfrom Denver right.
How do you add value into otherpeople's lives?
(19:44):
I've been finding ways to dothat my whole life and it's
something I just genuinely enjoydoing and I get rewarded
tenfold for it.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I just this morning launched an episode where we
talk about that, where we talkabout gaining more by giving.
I really believe in thephilosophy that you can't out
give.
The more you lean into givingto other people, the more it
just comes back.
And it's that abundancementality versus the scarcity
mentality.
And that's hard for some peopleto adapt, because the more you
(20:19):
give, the more you're at risk ofbeing taken advantage of.
But I think that that's theright philosophy to live life by
.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, no, it's a tit home, like I said, tenfold.
And you know the guy I workedfor before Mike McCann.
He's been the number one agentdowntown Philadelphia 35 years.
The guy gives more back to thereal estate agent community than
anybody that I've ever seen andit comes back to him tenfold.
So it's your reputationprecedes you and that's just
(20:53):
super, super important to me.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
So with working in downtown Philly.
I want to close out a couple ofthings with that.
Are you doing a lot of workwith HOAs, or what's the
situation?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I've turned down probably a hundred units of HOA
business altogether.
It's a race to the bottom inthe HOA management business in
Philadelphia.
People get the business andthen they provide awful service.
It's on my three to five yearradar but right now I just I
don't touch it because I can'tprovide, I can't compete, I
(21:28):
can't provide the service.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So there's two things to two ways to work with HOAs.
The first one is to do HOAmanagement, which that sounds
like that's what you're talkingabout You're not managing HOAs
but the other is managingproperties investment properties
inside of an HLA community.
Yes, Are you doing any of that?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yep, yeah, absolutely .
Our nicest property is in aneight-unit boutique condo
building.
There's been two tenants inthere.
They've rented from $20,000 to$25,000 a month, right, so that
property needs an extra level ofservice.
And then we have units that arein buildings with 500 units as
well, and it's making nice withthe building manager is my first
(22:11):
priority, because I've hadexperiences where they can make
your life hell if they want to.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I hear people talk about managing properties in an
HOA community and they just sayyou know what, it's not worth it
, the HOAs are too difficult,and why.
I do agree that there is.
They have some I won't sayunlimited control over your
business, but they do haveadditional control over the way
you're able to do business.
But one of the ways I foundwhen we had our brokerage in
(22:41):
downtown Denver was they'regatekeepers, so you either get
on the inside and they give youa key, or you stay on the
outside.
And so I realized, if I'm goingto be doing business in this
marketplace, I definitely needto get on the inside.
And so we came up with a lot ofdifferent ways that because they
(23:01):
, ultimately, they have the samedesire we do of different ways
that because they, ultimately,they have the same desire we do.
They want to have good peoplein good homes and be good
residents, and whether they'reowners or tenants, they have the
same desire.
They put a little bit extrascrutiny on the tenant side, but
they just want.
They don't want a bunch ofproblems in their community and
so we leaned into that's thesame approach we have.
(23:23):
How can we work together?
And it took a little while.
But I think if you can createthose relationships, it's an
advantage, because now they'regoing to refer your company out
versus some of the othercompanies that have problems.
When the owners ultimately calland say who do you recommend
for property management in thisbuilding?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, no, it's actually great.
You got my mind spinning.
I'm trying to hold back alittle bit here.
But yeah, it makes a ton ofsense to go and do a little
extra for them, because I neverunfortunately I never really
thought what a source ofbusiness they could be for those
bigger units.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I don't know if this is crossing any legal boundaries
or not.
I didn't look at it from thatstandpoint.
But one of the things we used todo around the holidays, you
know, you get to know the peoplethat are working the front desk
, the door, the building manager, and every holiday we would ask
for a list of the buildingstaff from the building manager
(24:21):
and we would go and make surethat we met each one of them
with no other purpose other thanjust to check in, tell them
happy holidays and give them anenvelope with a hundred bucks in
it and so for a few thousandbucks in the manage in the
buildings we managed at ahundred bucks a pop.
That bought us thousands andthousands of dollars of goodwill
(24:43):
where they would allow ourcontractors to.
You know they would have acontractor say you got to be out
of the building, you got to bewrapped up with your work by 430
.
You have to be out by five.
We'd have deals where we wereturning properties and they
would allow us to stay until sixor seven if they were painting
and not making noise orsomething like that.
So, um, yeah, I, we went down alittle bit of a rabbit hole.
(25:07):
But I know figuring out thatHOA key I think is uh is if you
can figure that out, itdefinitely makes your life
easier if you're working inthose communities.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, no, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, well, tell me a little bit about the you
mentioned at some point youover-software-ified, or
software-ication, or something.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I made up a word.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
yes, yeah, I like that.
I made up one yesterday.
I think I'm still undecided ifit was an actual word or not.
But let's talk about some ofthe dangers of growing a
property management businesswhen you don't know what you
don't know and you get in andeverything looks like the easy
button.
When somebody's trying to sellyou something and I'm not
(25:50):
looking for you to throw anybodyunder the bus or anything like
that If you want to sharesomething, feel free to share
that.
But at the same time, how do weavoid?
As entrepreneurs, we're alwayslooking for how do we advance,
how do we move the needle as faras possible with as little
effort as possible?
And I think there are a lot ofpeople that have figured out.
(26:13):
Even us, as property managers,we're trying to communicate that
we're the easy button for thelandlord.
Don't do it yourself, hire us,we're the easy button.
So how do we avoid makingmistakes with pressing the wrong
button and jumping in with thewrong solutions?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah to me and I liken it to when I started my
real estate business.
I don't think you can figureout the right way until you fall
on your face and completelyfail, and that you know.
Last year around this time Iwas a little bit in that place
of man, how do I get myself outof here?
And going back and looking atwhat I was doing was using
(26:52):
software to cover up myinability to critically think
through.
Conditional logic is exactlywhat it came down to.
So we hired consultant lastmiddle of last year and we
didn't have a great run withthem.
But there's multiple people inthe organization and we just got
(27:15):
in front of someone else in theorganization and the light bulb
just went off and what it camedown to is don't put anything in
any automation software.
For me, this is just what thelight bulb that went off for us
is whiteboard the hell out ofyour process, fill in the gaps.
And for us it didn't make senseuntil we built it in a
(27:37):
spreadsheet With drop-down boxesand check boxes, super simple.
So we had stuff running insoftware because we tried to get
in too early but literally hadto break that process and stop
it and move back to aspreadsheet.
It was essentially the sayingof take one step backwards to
take three steps forward.
(27:58):
So it's the whiteboard towriting out the details, to
getting it in the spreadsheetand tying that to what is the
policy around it, so that thepeople can critically think and
not have to ask me for everysingle thing.
So we stopped using lead,simple, went backwards, so that
now, all right, we're committed,we're ready to launch.
(28:21):
April 7th is what I call our Dday, right Of everything in
there, and really it had to beblown up, like everything we
worked on needed to be blown up.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
You touched on something and if, if people were
listening too fast, they theymay have missed it, and it's
something that you and I havetalked a lot about.
There's something that I sortof preach A process only exists
because a policy triggered it,and we can create processes in a
software or on a checklistpaper, checklist spreadsheet,
(28:57):
whatever that.
As long as everything flowsexactly the way it's supposed to
.
We can have box checkers Likejust check the box, that you did
the thing.
But what happens is, in thisbusiness, very rarely does an
entire day go by whereeverything goes as it's supposed
to, and so at the point whereit falls out of that common 80%,
(29:19):
what do we do?
And that's where we need tofocus on those policies.
The policy again is what we doand why we do it.
The process is how we do it,and so if we have teams that can
do that critical thinking, weneed to first have what our
policies are.
Then we give them a tool tomake it more efficient or
(29:42):
effective to uphold or adhere tothat policy.
And I think a lot of people,when they're looking for that
easy button, they said well,I'll just hire a company or I'll
work with some software where Ijust put it all in.
I'd do a brain dump of here'swhat I think we should do, step
(30:02):
by step.
But very rarely does businessgo for a full day where
everything goes exactly step bystep for every single process,
and so I think it's smart thatyou took it out of the software,
documented it so that it isstep-by-step on written paper in
(30:22):
Google Doc, google Sheet,whatever, and then said okay,
this is the flow that I want.
Now how can I build this out toallow us to build in that
critical thinking at thosecritical spots?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, and without like.
The whiteboard was justrevolutionary for me, instead of
putting it on a Google doc oranything, because we could then
document on the side in realtime of what policies impact
these steps here.
So it was kind of like theymade a baby and out came this
(30:56):
beautiful product that is.
You know, we see it already,with the wheels in motion, going
to where you know, getting tomy vision of how I want the
company to run.
But it was, you know, we've hadsome conversations.
It was very, very difficult toget to where I am today and it
(31:17):
by no means is anything perfect.
We're ready to go.
It's do we get?
You know, I preach it to theteam all the time Did we get 1%
better today?
And that's what we focus on.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, it's the incremental progress over time.
We don't need to makeincredible leaps every day.
We just need to continue totweak and improve a little bit
at a time.
So the company size you arethere's a lot of talk in the
industry about EOS andscorecards and meetings,
frequency and all of the stuffthat, as you grow, becomes more
(31:50):
important.
Are you doing any of that atyour portfolio size?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So, speaking of making babies, I have made a
baby between, essentially, eosand getting things done, because
what I've found is the rigidityof like that person's exact
system.
Just everything doesn't workfor me.
So I've been able to pick andchoose.
Like you know, I take the L10meeting from EOS and I apply
(32:16):
that to our weekly team meetingand our leadership meeting, so
I've used that across the board.
It's been very helpful.
Helped me.
Eos also with the mission,vision, values.
That exercise really, reallyhelped me and I even brought in
I did some learning on a systemcalled Pinnacle, which was
(32:38):
basically two EOS guys from thebeginning broke off and started
Pinnacle.
It's essentially the same exactthing, just said in a different
way, and that made it click forme.
So, yes, it's a blend of EOSand getting things done.
How I manage things.
(32:58):
I try to instill it in my teamright, the biggest thing with
getting things done, the biggestbreakthrough that we had, is
understanding your brain is notmeant to hold things.
So whenever you have a thought,you need to get it into what
they call an inbox and you canhave as many inboxes as you want
, but as few as necessary, andthat has been a game changer for
(33:25):
me and my team is starting toimplement and see how well it
works, because you know, likeyou said, we're putting out
fireballs all day.
How do we make it so easy toget things out of your brain?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
As you move forward with the company.
What's your plan for your rolein the company?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, so I am in the middle of listening to buy back
your time, probably for theeighth or ninth time as it
stands today yeah, incredible.
Every time I listen to it Ihear something new in there and
that's why I just keep listeningto it.
New in there, and that's why Ijust keep listening to it.
My goal is to be irrelevant inthe company.
I think it's going to take meanother four or five years to
(34:08):
get there and the goal is not togrow to a thousand units under
management.
I am focused on getting thisstood up to about four to 500
units, continuing to trim thefat.
But my goal in life is that mykids, the three and
five-year-old girls they want tohang out with me when we're old
.
So every day I am verycognizant of how do I not get
(34:29):
sucked in to just having a joband make time for them.
So I want to be close toirrelevant in the company.
In five years we be able tospend time with my family around
here.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
We talk a lot about the reticular activating system
and, in razz, what makes itthrough your filter?
Because your brain receivesmillions of messages a day,
probably billions.
I haven't done math, but it'slike 11 million per second of
points of information, but yourbrain can only process or retain
, even briefly, like 40 to 50 ofthose, and so what you retain
(35:09):
is things that your brain hasalready determined is important
to you, and one of the thingsthat has made it through my
filter lately is the speed inbusiness.
It's all about the speed ofexecution, and I'm sure that
this message has been out therefor years.
It's just that's one of thethings recently that's become
important to me.
So how can we speed things up?
(35:31):
I'm curious about thatfive-year time frame for you.
What is that dependent on?
Why is it going to take fiveyears and not one?
What's the reasons for that?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I like to under promise and over deliver for a
lot of things that I do.
So I think that's definitelypart of it.
And yes, I go back and askmyself am I selling myself short
with 400 units with five years?
Out from being irrelevant?
It's a great question.
It's people right I want to beable to lead with revenue.
I'm about to, for the firsttime, not really lead with
(36:06):
revenue with this person, butI'm ready to make that
investment.
But I mean, it's just how manypeople can I hire to run this
thing efficiently and not beoverstaffed?
Is the balance that, as a smallbusiness with not a ton of
units, it's so important to makethat right hire, because a
wrong hire can set me back morethan it helps me.
(36:29):
So I don't know if exactly Ianswered your question there,
but I would love for it tohappen sooner than five years.
But I would love for it tohappen sooner than five years.
But I don't want to also beunrealistic with myself and
sacrifice time outside of workto get there, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
I think that's one of the things that I, as I got
older when I was younger I wasthe super big control freak
Wanted to dominate the marketfor the sake of dominating the
market had nothing to do withmoney, I just wanted to win.
And so we were doing stupidthings where we would reduce our
(37:08):
fees to the point where we werebasically paying to manage the
property.
But I didn't want anybody elseto have a unit in my marketplace
and we were just doing stupidstuff like that.
And as I've matured, I'verealized you know, through age
and making mistakes, that it'snot all about the company size,
it's not all about total revenue.
(37:29):
It's about what do I take homeat the end of the day and what
does that do for me and mylifestyle, that I want to live
Because you can make more money.
You can't make more time.
So we, when I work with clients,we spend some time talking
about what's this all for?
You know why.
Why are we?
What's the goal in the business?
What are we growing thebusiness for?
(37:49):
And it's.
It's amazing how many people saywell, I just want to get to 500
doors, or I want to get to athousand doors and you start
digging in why and there's noreason why, it's just the number
they've heard and they thinkthat well, if I'm struggling at
a hundred doors and I'mstruggling at 200 doors, I could
(38:10):
grow to 500 and solve thatissue.
Well, you just have differentissues, you just have different
problems.
And so it's really digging intowhat do I want this business to
do for me in my life?
And now let's start figuringthat piece out so that
everything we do in the businessstacks on top of what we want,
so that we can build thatlifestyle, so we can step away
(38:33):
from it and not feel a sense ofloss, that we've lost our
identity when we hire somebodyin to do some of the things that
we've been doing for the lastfive years and gave us some
level of importance orself-importance.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, I don't know how to solve this, but I felt so
inferior my first coupleconferences going to, because
the first question out ofeveryone's mouth is how many
doors do you manage, and thenthat dictates how much energy
they give back to you in theconversation.
I wonder if that's the question.
You ask people, Not youspecifically, but people ask
(39:07):
what do you want this businessto do for you?
Instead of oh, how many doorsdo you manage?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Another way to frame that ishow many hours do you work?
Yep, because if you're runninga thousand doors but you're
working 80 hours a week, I donot want to be you.
I don't care how much moneyyou're putting in your pocket.
Yeah, yeah.
And if you're if you're runninga hundred doors and working 10
hours a week.
I would rather be you, so.
(39:34):
Yeah a hundred percent andthat's where I fall and that's
you know.
I've kind of defected from thereal estate community in
Philadelphia because I just Ican't.
That energy is just not where Iwant to be.
Referrals what are you seeingbeing successful with gathering
(39:59):
realtor referrals or other typesof referrals?
What do you see is working?
Because the market is shifting.
It's not the same sales marketthat we had.
We have agents that werebuyer's agents, that were used
to being able to just count on acommission.
Now they're having to negotiatewho's going to pay me Just a
big shakeup in the marketplace.
(40:20):
Are you still seeing realtorreferrals being a big source of
leads for you?
Are there other sources?
If somebody is trying to grow,what insight do you have for
them?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, so realtor referrals have been 90% of my
leads and it's twofold.
One thing in the agreement thatI do do it causes a little bit
of chaos sometimes is I have arefer back guarantee.
So when that property ownerwants to go sell or buy another
property, I'm steering them backto their agent that sent me.
(40:51):
Now I also let agents list theproperty for rent if they refer
it to me for the first time.
I control the applicationprocess and the leasing process,
but I never want to take moneyout of people's pockets because
they refer me business.
So that's hit home.
Number one and then number two.
(41:12):
There's a big discourse inPhiladelphia about where on the
spectrum do you land fromtenants versus landlords, and I
think Philadelphia is playingsome catch up from just years of
tenant abuse that they've takenand they're really starting to
stick up for tenants, which Ithink is really needed because
(41:33):
tenants have just been takenadvantage of for so long.
So what that leads to isPhiladelphia increasing how they
actually enforce the lawsthey've had in place.
They've always had these thingsin place, but now we're
actually starting to enforcethem so I'm able to provide
value to the agents, to thenbring it back to their clients
(41:54):
to say, hey, if you don't have arental license, there's a
website out there for tenants inPhiladelphia.
Hey, if you don't have a rentallicense, there's a website out
there for tenants inPhiladelphia that tells them
they don't need to pay rent andyou can't evict them.
And, by the way, they can go,look for your rental license.
It's public information on theinternet, so tenants are getting
more keen to it.
Those stories are spreading andjust the importance of the
(42:18):
actual regulations to do it theright way in Philadelphia have
been huge for me.
Staying on top of that and thenmaking it bite-sized
information for them to passalong to their clients.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Somebody turns over a referral to you as management
you mentioned and I've neverheard anybody else doing this,
but you you mentioned you letthem list it for lease for the
first time as sort of a I don'tknow parting gift to them to say
like you can take this listing,uh, lease listing commission.
I'm curious about the how doesthat work with the landlord?
(42:58):
Who do they communicate with?
Do they communicate with theleasing agent that works for the
other brokerage?
Do they communicate with you?
It seems like a good idea frombuilding goodwill with the
referral agent or referrer, butI could see where that causes a
(43:18):
little bit of confusion andauthority down the road with.
Well, no, you've hired me asthe expert in leasing and
property management.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, so they can.
If that happens, theycommunicate with their listing
agent up until the applicationpoint, so that agent's
responsible.
You know we go in and we'llgive them a list of the make
ready and still help them makeit ready for the next tenant.
But they communicate with thatlisting agent up until there's
an application.
So we take over and essentiallywork for free to screen the
(43:50):
tenant and write the lease andthen that's where we take over
and they depart and we do it aton.
We've had one issue with theother agent jumping back in and
negotiating the renewal.
I never thought I had.
I never communicated like hey,we have the renewal, every other
agent has just assumed it.
(44:12):
But now we know, right, there'sa policy of something that we
need to implement, of like hey,we'll handle the renewal.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Like yeah, yeah just on the way in not not continuous
yeah, it really hasn't been aproblem.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Everyone everyone I tell it to that's been in the
industry for a while, tells meI'm an idiot and that I'm crazy
for doing that.
But it it's a source ofbusiness that you know, and then
I'll lease the place when itcomes up for lease next time and
no problem.
But it's kind of like theparting referral fee in a sense,
which I'll pay anyway.
But yeah, really haven't hadany issues.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Well, Mike, it's been a pleasure having you on.
It's been fun to get to knowyou over the last couple of
years here and it's been fun tokind of watch your growth and
transition as you went fromoperating a business that was.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
You can say it, don't hold back on me.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Well, it was in a state of chaos and, at some
level, right, and all businessesare, so I'm not trying to throw
shots, but it's been fun towatch you stack the pieces in
the right order as you'rebuilding out the business now,
and I can see that future thatyou're talking about, where you
(45:28):
are able to walk away in fiveyears and have somebody else
running the business for you andnot having to be the person
that holds it all together.
So I appreciate you letting mehave that insight into the
business and I appreciate youbeing on with us today.
Is there anything that I shouldhave asked or that you want to
talk about as we close out?
Speaker 2 (45:48):
No, I think we hit it all pretty well.
I wish we don't have time toreally dive into it.
I wish there was betterresources for brand new property
managers.
And that's in the back of mybrain.
I can only give away so much ofmy time, but I just wish there
was something out there for newproperty managers with no hidden
(46:10):
agendas, all right, mike.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Thanks for hopping on .
It was great seeing you andwe'll connect again soon.
Awesome Thanks, tony.
Thanks for tuning in to, it wasgreat seeing you and we'll
connect again soon.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Awesome Thanks, Tony.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Thanks for tuning in to the Property Management
Success Podcast.
We'll be back with anothervalue-packed episode to help you
level up your propertymanagement game.
If you've got somethingvaluable out of today's episode,
please share it with a friendor colleague, and don't forget
to subscribe and leave a reviewso you never miss out on future
insights and strategies andtactics.
Until next time.
(46:39):
Here's to your success.
Welcome to the Property Management Success
Podcast, where we interviewleaders in the industry to
uncover the secrets toprofitability, efficiency and
achieving true freedom, whetherit's your time, money or
lifestyle.
I'm your host, tony Klein, andI'm here to help you build a
wildly successful propertymanagement business.
Let's get to it.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Property Management
(00:22):
Success Podcast.
Today, I'm excited to be joinedby Mike Goldstein with HubKey
Real Estate.
Mike, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Tony, yeah, absolutely so.
Mike, tell our audience alittle bit about who you are,
how you got into propertymanagement and where your office
is located.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yep, no, absolutely yeah.
So I got started in thebusiness as a young kid.
Long story short, my grandmomwas able to escape, basically
being rounded up by the Polishpolice, made it over to America,
eventually made her way to thevery southern tip of New Jersey
in a town called Wildwood Crest,bought a small motel when I was
able to sustain her stuff onthat, bought a piece of land and
(01:04):
built a 46-unit motel.
So I grew up in the hospitalityindustry.
Right, call it short-termrentals, whatever you want.
It was a motel on the beach ina summertime.
That was my life.
It was incredible, didn't knowanything else.
You're kind of surrounded in alittle bubble down there, very
small community, andunfortunately they sold it right
.
Family businesses are difficultand the family to me and I see
(01:28):
it now, family is more importantthan anything.
So I ended up selling thebusiness.
I always had that itch for realestate, went away to college and
graduated college and mygrandmom offers to buy me a car.
I'm like I don't want a car, Ihave no interest, worst timing
ever.
She helped me buy a house inAugust of 2008.
First house I see, pulled in,full price offer.
(01:48):
Didn't know it, researchanything whatsoever, but she
helped me buy my first house andthat was the first time the
light bulb really went off thatI can build wealth with real
estate.
I've been addicted ever since.
From there, I ended up gettingmy real estate license in 2011,.
Even though I know a lot ofproperty managers give crap to
real estate agents who get inthe property management business
(02:10):
.
I just was managing my ownproperties.
I was able to go out and sellduring the day, night to weekend
, but was able to reinvest inmyself and built a little
portfolio for myself, got mybroker's license in 2018.
And then, late 2021, I openedmy own brokerage called Hubkey
Real Estate in downtownPhiladelphia.
Philly is a small city ofneighborhoods.
(02:33):
I'm in a neighborhood right nowcalled Fishtown, which is
awesome.
We manage 110 doors focused ondowntown Philadelphia.
Try to keep the units a littlebit higher end.
It doesn't always work outperfectly that way, but I'm a
big believer in quality overquantity, and that's a lot of
(02:55):
what I talk to my potentialclients about is.
The goal is not to grow huge.
I love a real estate guy in theindustry.
His name's Chad Carson and hewrote a book Small but Mighty
and it really just exemplifiedeverything of how I like to look
at what I build for myself andmy family.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Tell me a little bit about.
There's a few things that I wasexcited to, a few reasons why I
was excited to have you on.
The first is you specialize inthat downtown market.
The second is the size of yourportfolio.
The third is the fact that yougot in first as an investor,
then a real estate agent andthen in property management.
(03:37):
And we see there's generallytwo ways that people get into
property management.
They either are a real estatebroker they're looking for a way
to expand the ability to bringin income or they're a real
estate investor that says Ican't find anybody that can
manage my properties as well asI can, and so they start a
property management business.
(03:58):
You sort of went through bothof those paths.
You started as a real estateinvestor.
How many doors did you havebefore you decided, hey look,
I'm going to start doingthird-party management?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, and I'm still there today.
I'm at 20 units, all in alittle concentrated pocket of
Philadelphia, and I got there.
I used to basically have anassistant who would help me with
my real estate sales things andmanage my own properties, and
when my sales business grew toobig I went out and looked for
third party managers and I justcouldn't find anything that I
(04:33):
liked.
So I just kept the assistantand kept trucking on.
From there I got into thebrokerage business.
I worked for someone who's beennumber one in the Philadelphia
market for 35 years and he hadthe opportunity to buy a
franchise and we turned thataround and that kind of opened
my eyes to everything thathappens on the back end of a
brokerage that nobody reallytalks about and how hard it
(04:56):
really is.
But someone said something tome one day that stuck with me.
It was early in my real estatesales career and you're only as
good as your last deal.
Stuck with me.
It was early in my real estatesales career and you're only as
good as your last deal.
So that was kind of the switchthat went on that propelled my
real estate investing career.
And then how do I blend thereal estate investing piece with
actually building a businessand not just having a job as a
(05:17):
real estate agent.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I think there's a similar saying that we used to
float around.
It's at of the month as a realestate broker.
At the first of the monthyou're unemployed again until
you get that next deal undercontract.
The nice thing about propertymanagement as we all know if
we're listening to the show isthat recurring income.
(05:39):
It's generating that incomemonth over month from those
contracts, those managementagreements.
It.
You know it's not a lot ofmoney, though when you first get
one contract or two contracts,you know it's.
You're stacking nickels to tryto make a dollar and and even
that is hard to earn an incomeon.
So did you immediately switchover from brokerage to property
(06:03):
management?
Was it sort of over frombrokerage to property management
?
Was it sort of I sold a fewinvestment doors and they needed
management, so I I did.
I'm curious about the intent ofthe switch.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I would say it was.
It was a slow play.
I like to do my best to leadwith revenue.
So, and to this day still, Istill represent builders and
developers to sell theirproducts.
So I tried doing it while I wasstill at my old brokerage and I
just ran into some hurdles withthe PA real estate law in
(06:35):
Pennsylvania and unfortunatelyhad to leave that brokerage to
go open up my own.
I don't represent any buyers,that's just not a good use of my
own.
I don't represent any buyers,that's just not a good use of my
time.
But it was a slow accumulationof hey can I build out the
systems to manage properties.
It took obviously longer thanwhat I thought it was going to
(06:57):
take because it's a lot harderthan anybody likes to tell you.
But I just limit the amount ofsales deals that I do.
And it's hard because thatquick hit of five figures is
really really hard to turn down.
But I'm finally at a point nowwhere the snowball has picked up
on the property management sidewhere I can even be more
(07:18):
selective of what I dorepresenting sellers, which is
still a big part of my business.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Tell me about.
You mentioned something thatthat piques my attention.
You mentioned that people don'ttalk about how hard it is to
get started, and I know we havepeople in the audience that are
listening that are of alldifferent sizes, various size
companies.
Some of them are in thatmultiple thousands of doors,
Some of them are just gettingstarted.
(07:44):
What is some of that stuff thatyou go through when you're
starting up a propertymanagement company that you find
out only after you've kind ofjumped in?
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I think I don't know the term for this, but it's the
over software occasion for this.
But it's the over softwareoccasion.
I don't think that's a word.
But everyone tries to sellevery piece of software in the
industry to like, automate ormake the next thing easier.
But if you don't have yourpolicies and procedures already
(08:18):
laid out beforehand, it turnsinto a nightmare.
And that's exactly what happenedto me.
I got sold too early on all theshiny, flashy things in the
industry and I essentially builta roof before I had a
foundation and I had to tear itdown.
(08:40):
And that rebuilding processstill isn't done.
Today I'm less than a monthaway from what I'm calling D-Day
.
But I just think nobody wantsto slow down, especially and
this is why realtors get a bador real estate agents kind of
get a bad rap right, becausethey just want to go out and
sell 25 contracts next monthwithout really thinking about
(09:02):
how are you going to explain toanother person other than
yourself how to actually executeall these things?
And that's I mean, that's themain thing that got me jammed up
.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
How would, if you were to go back and do it again
and start over, or if you wereto advise somebody on getting
ramped up, getting started, whatwould you do differently?
How would you start outdifferently?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I would start with just my 20 units and I would
pretend that I'm an owner client, not the owner of the company.
Because I didn't realize howbig I didn't realize the gap in
communication, relayingeverything that I do just in my
head, naturally to a third party.
So I probably would havestarted sooner, before I
(09:48):
actually took clients on, ofjust treating myself as a third
party investor.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I like that, one of the things you know I got into
the real estate and propertymanagement business back in the
year 2000.
So I've been in it for a longtime.
I've seen a lot of technologychange.
I've seen a lot of standardsand expectations change, and I
remember when I would first workwith clients I would tell them
(10:14):
if you hear from me, if I callyou, pick up the phone because
it's bad news and we got to talk.
You are going to grant me allthe rights and authority I need
to manage this property on yourbehalf, and so I'm going to do
that.
But if there comes a time wherethere is a decision that needs
to be made, money that's spent,that's above my authorization
(10:37):
limit, we need to chat.
And for a long time my businessran fine like that.
But what wound up happening isI would have clients that would
terminate with me because theywould say well, I've been paying
you for two years and it justseems like it's an extra expense
because everything just goes sosmooth.
Well, it goes so smooth becauseI'm juggling, you know,
(10:59):
firebombs in the background forthem, firebombs in the
background for them.
But the communication, I think,is a big part of the service we
deliver.
That in the back end isirrelevant until they know about
it up front.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's something we're going through
now, and finding checkpoints tohave happy conversations with
them, to tell them whensomething went well, is
definitely a place that we'refocused on.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, you and I have spent some time talking about
what we term the life cycle ofproperty management, where we
have the four categories and thefive phases of the life cycle,
and being able to identify thosetouch points during those life
cycle phases I think makes iteasier to sort of preemptively,
(11:48):
or at least proactively, knowwhen you're going to communicate
those touch points, when to askfor the reviews, when to be a
little bit more sensitive withthe communication, when they've
got a vacancy, things like that.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, where the biggest jump in my business has
been making the right hiresright.
Hiring that property managerthat has the softer candor than
I do myself to talk andnegotiate with those tenants
right During maintenance.
Every maintenance issue is aemergency, but like stopping and
really thinking about how we'recommunicating with each one you
(12:25):
know whether it's a client,resident or vendor has has been
huge and you're the.
The framework that you providedfor us has just exponentially
made our company grow.
You can't even put a price tagon it.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Well, I appreciate that feedback.
Let's let's dive in a littlebit to to that framework,
specifically the framework andthe documentation and all of
that.
But you are at a size right nowa portfolio size where, with
the framework, with havingsomebody work for you, you now
have the ability to open upwhat's possible, because it's
(13:04):
under that 100 doors, 150 doorsit's basically you being the
brains of the outfit and thenmaybe you hire an assistant that
does what you say and as youget to that 100, 150 doors, it
has to start changing or youstart burning out.
It's just too much and youcan't just say I have an
assistant but I can't tell themwhat to do because I'm so busy
(13:26):
doing what needs to be done thatthe assistant is just sitting
there waiting for stuff to do.
What's the plan moving forwardnow that you've got this solid
framework?
You've got somebody else onyour team that's able to help
you move this thing forward.
What's the future look likeover the next, say, 12 to 24
months?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, I would definitely say it's an upgrade
of talent.
You know, I started with remoteteam members but I found
they've only can get you to acertain level.
So yesterday, right, I just putup a new job description.
I'm sorry, I hope my currentteam member doesn't watch this,
but I mean, it's just that'sbusiness, right.
We need to upgrade the level oftalent to critically think
(14:09):
through issues.
So I can only do so much right.
I can only record so many loomsa day to put in our database.
To explain things, I needactual thinkers.
So I'm a huge believer inpeople and up until yesterday
I've always led with revenue tohire.
But I had a breakthroughconversation with one of my good
(14:29):
friends.
Another investor owned aproperty management company as
well and he pushed me over theedge to go invest in the
business, just like I wouldinvest in another property.
I built this business on sheerbroker referrals.
I've done little to no saleswhatsoever and gotten to where I
am in two years, so I've provedthe concept.
I had to slow it down a littlebit because I got out ahead of
(14:52):
my skis, but I'm at a reallygood place now where the
business is under control.
I'm not burnt out.
I'm spending time with myfamily all nights and weekends,
so now it's all right.
I have the confidence to goinvest in people.
That's really what it lookslike and it's continued to what
I call just trim the fat Rightand where we just did it.
(15:13):
Last month, for the first time,we let somebody go because they
just really didn't follow, theydidn't meet our criteria, and I
finally felt confident to havethat conversation and let them
go, mike.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
We talk a lot about building a championship team.
You've heard me say that overand over, and part of that
championship team is we have achampionship formula that we
walk through and the first oneis your game plan, which is the
mission, vision, core values,target, client profile, income
and revenue streams.
Then we move on to the policies.
(15:46):
We've already sort of touchedon the importance of documenting
your policies before you startcreating your processes.
The policy is what we do andwhy we do it.
The process is how we do it,but that gets a lot of attention
.
The next couple of steps I thinkpeople tend to skip over, which
is defining the positions thatyou need on the team and getting
(16:10):
really clear about the rolesand responsibilities.
And then, once you have that nowyou go and you say, okay, now
that I have this positiondefined, who's the player I need
to recruit to fill that?
And I think that's you'veexperienced that now with the
remote team members, and I'm notsaying that all remote team
members are bad and that alllocal people are better, but
(16:30):
what you realized was you hadsomebody that you were playing
in a position that was not theright player to play that
position and, I think,recognizing that once you start
top leveling, every person thatwe add to the team needs to
raise the standards and thequality of the team.
I think once that clicks andyou start to see that in action,
you start to see that, wow, Iam.
(16:52):
I'm able to do a lot more nowthan I was before because I was
having to handhold so muchbefore with the other team
member.
I think it's just reallyimportant to set those standards
and then hold peopleaccountable and if they're not
cutting it just like on aprofessional sports team,
nothing personal, but I thinkit's time you get traded.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, the, my whole philosophy has been kind of
re-engineered around that to getto exactly what you're talking
about, and you can see it comeswith more pressure for me, right
Of holding people accountable,like just being better at candor
, not just, I want everybody tolove me and like me, and it
makes some people uncomfortable,but they're going to
(17:34):
self-select their way out andthat's okay.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, so you, you're growing the portfolio and you
are doing it in a specializedway.
You mentioned quality overquantity and staying focused.
Tell me a little bit about thespecialty that you have in the
marketplace, working in downtownPhilly.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah.
So if you look at Philadelphia,city Hall is essentially the
center of the city.
Ben Franklin designed it.
And as you go out with a radius, if you think of it on a scale,
from A neighborhoods all theway down to F neighborhoods, the
further you get out from centercity, the worse the
neighborhoods get.
The lowest I'll go is a Cneighborhood and that takes you
(18:18):
about two miles each way, twomile radius from center city,
each way.
Two mile radius from centercity.
So luckily, you know, downtownis obviously dense and I've made
it a point to stay in contactand add value to those real
estate agents who do a lot ofbusiness in those areas.
So I go out and do apresentation called how to lure
(18:38):
to land in Philadelphia that Iput on in front of teams and it
essentially arms them with thetools to sell more homes to real
estate investors From there.
Right, it's just the trickleeffect of.
You know the company's name isHubKey.
I look at that as the hub ofthe wheel right and the spokes
of those real estate agents.
(19:00):
There are horror stories aboutproperty managers all over the
country.
Most I don't know about, butthere's a bunch in Philadelphia.
I spoke to one woman literallyyesterday with a property in an
A-plus neighborhood.
Her property manager has notsent her a 1099.
It's March 13th today.
She doesn't get a monthly P&L.
She just did a $5,600 turnoverand has no bills and no idea
(19:24):
what it was for.
So unfortunately, the bar islow in Philadelphia for me to
come in and be selective aboutthose pieces of business that I
get to pick up.
So it's really just Actuallythe podcast that you had the
other day with the title agentfrom Denver right.
How do you add value into otherpeople's lives?
(19:44):
I've been finding ways to dothat my whole life and it's
something I just genuinely enjoydoing and I get rewarded
tenfold for it.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I just this morning launched an episode where we
talk about that, where we talkabout gaining more by giving.
I really believe in thephilosophy that you can't out
give.
The more you lean into givingto other people, the more it
just comes back.
And it's that abundancementality versus the scarcity
mentality.
And that's hard for some peopleto adapt, because the more you
(20:19):
give, the more you're at risk ofbeing taken advantage of.
But I think that that's theright philosophy to live life by
.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, no, it's a tit home, like I said, tenfold.
And you know the guy I workedfor before Mike McCann.
He's been the number one agentdowntown Philadelphia 35 years.
The guy gives more back to thereal estate agent community than
anybody that I've ever seen andit comes back to him tenfold.
So it's your reputationprecedes you and that's just
(20:53):
super, super important to me.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
So with working in downtown Philly.
I want to close out a couple ofthings with that.
Are you doing a lot of workwith HOAs, or what's the
situation?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I've turned down probably a hundred units of HOA
business altogether.
It's a race to the bottom inthe HOA management business in
Philadelphia.
People get the business andthen they provide awful service.
It's on my three to five yearradar but right now I just I
don't touch it because I can'tprovide, I can't compete, I
(21:28):
can't provide the service.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So there's two things to two ways to work with HOAs.
The first one is to do HOAmanagement, which that sounds
like that's what you're talkingabout You're not managing HOAs
but the other is managingproperties investment properties
inside of an HLA community.
Yes, Are you doing any of that?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yep, yeah, absolutely .
Our nicest property is in aneight-unit boutique condo
building.
There's been two tenants inthere.
They've rented from $20,000 to$25,000 a month, right, so that
property needs an extra level ofservice.
And then we have units that arein buildings with 500 units as
well, and it's making nice withthe building manager is my first
(22:11):
priority, because I've hadexperiences where they can make
your life hell if they want to.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I hear people talk about managing properties in an
HOA community and they just sayyou know what, it's not worth it
, the HOAs are too difficult,and why.
I do agree that there is.
They have some I won't sayunlimited control over your
business, but they do haveadditional control over the way
you're able to do business.
But one of the ways I foundwhen we had our brokerage in
(22:41):
downtown Denver was they'regatekeepers, so you either get
on the inside and they give youa key, or you stay on the
outside.
And so I realized, if I'm goingto be doing business in this
marketplace, I definitely needto get on the inside.
And so we came up with a lot ofdifferent ways that because they
(23:01):
, ultimately, they have the samedesire we do of different ways
that because they, ultimately,they have the same desire we do.
They want to have good peoplein good homes and be good
residents, and whether they'reowners or tenants, they have the
same desire.
They put a little bit extrascrutiny on the tenant side, but
they just want.
They don't want a bunch ofproblems in their community and
so we leaned into that's thesame approach we have.
(23:23):
How can we work together?
And it took a little while.
But I think if you can createthose relationships, it's an
advantage, because now they'regoing to refer your company out
versus some of the othercompanies that have problems.
When the owners ultimately calland say who do you recommend
for property management in thisbuilding?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, no, it's actually great.
You got my mind spinning.
I'm trying to hold back alittle bit here.
But yeah, it makes a ton ofsense to go and do a little
extra for them, because I neverunfortunately I never really
thought what a source ofbusiness they could be for those
bigger units.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I don't know if this is crossing any legal boundaries
or not.
I didn't look at it from thatstandpoint.
But one of the things we used todo around the holidays, you
know, you get to know the peoplethat are working the front desk
, the door, the building manager, and every holiday we would ask
for a list of the buildingstaff from the building manager
(24:21):
and we would go and make surethat we met each one of them
with no other purpose other thanjust to check in, tell them
happy holidays and give them anenvelope with a hundred bucks in
it and so for a few thousandbucks in the manage in the
buildings we managed at ahundred bucks a pop.
That bought us thousands andthousands of dollars of goodwill
(24:43):
where they would allow ourcontractors to.
You know they would have acontractor say you got to be out
of the building, you got to bewrapped up with your work by 430
.
You have to be out by five.
We'd have deals where we wereturning properties and they
would allow us to stay until sixor seven if they were painting
and not making noise orsomething like that.
So, um, yeah, I, we went down alittle bit of a rabbit hole.
(25:07):
But I know figuring out thatHOA key I think is uh is if you
can figure that out, itdefinitely makes your life
easier if you're working inthose communities.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, no, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, well, tell me a little bit about the you
mentioned at some point youover-software-ified, or
software-ication, or something.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I made up a word.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
yes, yeah, I like that.
I made up one yesterday.
I think I'm still undecided ifit was an actual word or not.
But let's talk about some ofthe dangers of growing a
property management businesswhen you don't know what you
don't know and you get in andeverything looks like the easy
button.
When somebody's trying to sellyou something and I'm not
(25:50):
looking for you to throw anybodyunder the bus or anything like
that If you want to sharesomething, feel free to share
that.
But at the same time, how do weavoid?
As entrepreneurs, we're alwayslooking for how do we advance,
how do we move the needle as faras possible with as little
effort as possible?
And I think there are a lot ofpeople that have figured out.
(26:13):
Even us, as property managers,we're trying to communicate that
we're the easy button for thelandlord.
Don't do it yourself, hire us,we're the easy button.
So how do we avoid makingmistakes with pressing the wrong
button and jumping in with thewrong solutions?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah to me and I liken it to when I started my
real estate business.
I don't think you can figureout the right way until you fall
on your face and completelyfail, and that you know.
Last year around this time Iwas a little bit in that place
of man, how do I get myself outof here?
And going back and looking atwhat I was doing was using
(26:52):
software to cover up myinability to critically think
through.
Conditional logic is exactlywhat it came down to.
So we hired consultant lastmiddle of last year and we
didn't have a great run withthem.
But there's multiple people inthe organization and we just got
(27:15):
in front of someone else in theorganization and the light bulb
just went off and what it camedown to is don't put anything in
any automation software.
For me, this is just what thelight bulb that went off for us
is whiteboard the hell out ofyour process, fill in the gaps.
And for us it didn't make senseuntil we built it in a
(27:37):
spreadsheet With drop-down boxesand check boxes, super simple.
So we had stuff running insoftware because we tried to get
in too early but literally hadto break that process and stop
it and move back to aspreadsheet.
It was essentially the sayingof take one step backwards to
take three steps forward.
(27:58):
So it's the whiteboard towriting out the details, to
getting it in the spreadsheetand tying that to what is the
policy around it, so that thepeople can critically think and
not have to ask me for everysingle thing.
So we stopped using lead,simple, went backwards, so that
now, all right, we're committed,we're ready to launch.
(28:21):
April 7th is what I call our Dday, right Of everything in
there, and really it had to beblown up, like everything we
worked on needed to be blown up.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
You touched on something and if, if people were
listening too fast, they theymay have missed it, and it's
something that you and I havetalked a lot about.
There's something that I sortof preach A process only exists
because a policy triggered it,and we can create processes in a
software or on a checklistpaper, checklist spreadsheet,
(28:57):
whatever that.
As long as everything flowsexactly the way it's supposed to
.
We can have box checkers Likejust check the box, that you did
the thing.
But what happens is, in thisbusiness, very rarely does an
entire day go by whereeverything goes as it's supposed
to, and so at the point whereit falls out of that common 80%,
(29:19):
what do we do?
And that's where we need tofocus on those policies.
The policy again is what we doand why we do it.
The process is how we do it,and so if we have teams that can
do that critical thinking, weneed to first have what our
policies are.
Then we give them a tool tomake it more efficient or
(29:42):
effective to uphold or adhere tothat policy.
And I think a lot of people,when they're looking for that
easy button, they said well,I'll just hire a company or I'll
work with some software where Ijust put it all in.
I'd do a brain dump of here'swhat I think we should do, step
(30:02):
by step.
But very rarely does businessgo for a full day where
everything goes exactly step bystep for every single process,
and so I think it's smart thatyou took it out of the software,
documented it so that it isstep-by-step on written paper in
(30:22):
Google Doc, google Sheet,whatever, and then said okay,
this is the flow that I want.
Now how can I build this out toallow us to build in that
critical thinking at thosecritical spots?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, and without like.
The whiteboard was justrevolutionary for me, instead of
putting it on a Google doc oranything, because we could then
document on the side in realtime of what policies impact
these steps here.
So it was kind of like theymade a baby and out came this
(30:56):
beautiful product that is.
You know, we see it already,with the wheels in motion, going
to where you know, getting tomy vision of how I want the
company to run.
But it was, you know, we've hadsome conversations.
It was very, very difficult toget to where I am today and it
(31:17):
by no means is anything perfect.
We're ready to go.
It's do we get?
You know, I preach it to theteam all the time Did we get 1%
better today?
And that's what we focus on.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, it's the incremental progress over time.
We don't need to makeincredible leaps every day.
We just need to continue totweak and improve a little bit
at a time.
So the company size you arethere's a lot of talk in the
industry about EOS andscorecards and meetings,
frequency and all of the stuffthat, as you grow, becomes more
(31:50):
important.
Are you doing any of that atyour portfolio size?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So, speaking of making babies, I have made a
baby between, essentially, eosand getting things done, because
what I've found is the rigidityof like that person's exact
system.
Just everything doesn't workfor me.
So I've been able to pick andchoose.
Like you know, I take the L10meeting from EOS and I apply
(32:16):
that to our weekly team meetingand our leadership meeting, so
I've used that across the board.
It's been very helpful.
Helped me.
Eos also with the mission,vision, values.
That exercise really, reallyhelped me and I even brought in
I did some learning on a systemcalled Pinnacle, which was
(32:38):
basically two EOS guys from thebeginning broke off and started
Pinnacle.
It's essentially the same exactthing, just said in a different
way, and that made it click forme.
So, yes, it's a blend of EOSand getting things done.
How I manage things.
(32:58):
I try to instill it in my teamright, the biggest thing with
getting things done, the biggestbreakthrough that we had, is
understanding your brain is notmeant to hold things.
So whenever you have a thought,you need to get it into what
they call an inbox and you canhave as many inboxes as you want
, but as few as necessary, andthat has been a game changer for
(33:25):
me and my team is starting toimplement and see how well it
works, because you know, likeyou said, we're putting out
fireballs all day.
How do we make it so easy toget things out of your brain?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
As you move forward with the company.
What's your plan for your rolein the company?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, so I am in the middle of listening to buy back
your time, probably for theeighth or ninth time as it
stands today yeah, incredible.
Every time I listen to it Ihear something new in there and
that's why I just keep listeningto it.
New in there, and that's why Ijust keep listening to it.
My goal is to be irrelevant inthe company.
I think it's going to take meanother four or five years to
(34:08):
get there and the goal is not togrow to a thousand units under
management.
I am focused on getting thisstood up to about four to 500
units, continuing to trim thefat.
But my goal in life is that mykids, the three and
five-year-old girls they want tohang out with me when we're old
.
So every day I am verycognizant of how do I not get
(34:29):
sucked in to just having a joband make time for them.
So I want to be close toirrelevant in the company.
In five years we be able tospend time with my family around
here.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
We talk a lot about the reticular activating system
and, in razz, what makes itthrough your filter?
Because your brain receivesmillions of messages a day,
probably billions.
I haven't done math, but it'slike 11 million per second of
points of information, but yourbrain can only process or retain
, even briefly, like 40 to 50 ofthose, and so what you retain
(35:09):
is things that your brain hasalready determined is important
to you, and one of the thingsthat has made it through my
filter lately is the speed inbusiness.
It's all about the speed ofexecution, and I'm sure that
this message has been out therefor years.
It's just that's one of thethings recently that's become
important to me.
So how can we speed things up?
(35:31):
I'm curious about thatfive-year time frame for you.
What is that dependent on?
Why is it going to take fiveyears and not one?
What's the reasons for that?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I like to under promise and over deliver for a
lot of things that I do.
So I think that's definitelypart of it.
And yes, I go back and askmyself am I selling myself short
with 400 units with five years?
Out from being irrelevant?
It's a great question.
It's people right I want to beable to lead with revenue.
I'm about to, for the firsttime, not really lead with
(36:06):
revenue with this person, butI'm ready to make that
investment.
But I mean, it's just how manypeople can I hire to run this
thing efficiently and not beoverstaffed?
Is the balance that, as a smallbusiness with not a ton of
units, it's so important to makethat right hire, because a
wrong hire can set me back morethan it helps me.
(36:29):
So I don't know if exactly Ianswered your question there,
but I would love for it tohappen sooner than five years.
But I would love for it tohappen sooner than five years.
But I don't want to also beunrealistic with myself and
sacrifice time outside of workto get there, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
I think that's one of the things that I, as I got
older when I was younger I wasthe super big control freak
Wanted to dominate the marketfor the sake of dominating the
market had nothing to do withmoney, I just wanted to win.
And so we were doing stupidthings where we would reduce our
(37:08):
fees to the point where we werebasically paying to manage the
property.
But I didn't want anybody elseto have a unit in my marketplace
and we were just doing stupidstuff like that.
And as I've matured, I'verealized you know, through age
and making mistakes, that it'snot all about the company size,
it's not all about total revenue.
(37:29):
It's about what do I take homeat the end of the day and what
does that do for me and mylifestyle, that I want to live
Because you can make more money.
You can't make more time.
So we, when I work with clients,we spend some time talking
about what's this all for?
You know why.
Why are we?
What's the goal in the business?
What are we growing thebusiness for?
(37:49):
And it's.
It's amazing how many people saywell, I just want to get to 500
doors, or I want to get to athousand doors and you start
digging in why and there's noreason why, it's just the number
they've heard and they thinkthat well, if I'm struggling at
a hundred doors and I'mstruggling at 200 doors, I could
(38:10):
grow to 500 and solve thatissue.
Well, you just have differentissues, you just have different
problems.
And so it's really digging intowhat do I want this business to
do for me in my life?
And now let's start figuringthat piece out so that
everything we do in the businessstacks on top of what we want,
so that we can build thatlifestyle, so we can step away
(38:33):
from it and not feel a sense ofloss, that we've lost our
identity when we hire somebodyin to do some of the things that
we've been doing for the lastfive years and gave us some
level of importance orself-importance.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, I don't know how to solve this, but I felt so
inferior my first coupleconferences going to, because
the first question out ofeveryone's mouth is how many
doors do you manage, and thenthat dictates how much energy
they give back to you in theconversation.
I wonder if that's the question.
You ask people, Not youspecifically, but people ask
(39:07):
what do you want this businessto do for you?
Instead of oh, how many doorsdo you manage?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Another way to frame that ishow many hours do you work?
Yep, because if you're runninga thousand doors but you're
working 80 hours a week, I donot want to be you.
I don't care how much moneyyou're putting in your pocket.
Yeah, yeah.
And if you're if you're runninga hundred doors and working 10
hours a week.
I would rather be you, so.
(39:34):
Yeah a hundred percent andthat's where I fall and that's
you know.
I've kind of defected from thereal estate community in
Philadelphia because I just Ican't.
That energy is just not where Iwant to be.
Referrals what are you seeingbeing successful with gathering
(39:59):
realtor referrals or other typesof referrals?
What do you see is working?
Because the market is shifting.
It's not the same sales marketthat we had.
We have agents that werebuyer's agents, that were used
to being able to just count on acommission.
Now they're having to negotiatewho's going to pay me Just a
big shakeup in the marketplace.
(40:20):
Are you still seeing realtorreferrals being a big source of
leads for you?
Are there other sources?
If somebody is trying to grow,what insight do you have for
them?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, so realtor referrals have been 90% of my
leads and it's twofold.
One thing in the agreement thatI do do it causes a little bit
of chaos sometimes is I have arefer back guarantee.
So when that property ownerwants to go sell or buy another
property, I'm steering them backto their agent that sent me.
(40:51):
Now I also let agents list theproperty for rent if they refer
it to me for the first time.
I control the applicationprocess and the leasing process,
but I never want to take moneyout of people's pockets because
they refer me business.
So that's hit home.
Number one and then number two.
(41:12):
There's a big discourse inPhiladelphia about where on the
spectrum do you land fromtenants versus landlords, and I
think Philadelphia is playingsome catch up from just years of
tenant abuse that they've takenand they're really starting to
stick up for tenants, which Ithink is really needed because
(41:33):
tenants have just been takenadvantage of for so long.
So what that leads to isPhiladelphia increasing how they
actually enforce the lawsthey've had in place.
They've always had these thingsin place, but now we're
actually starting to enforcethem so I'm able to provide
value to the agents, to thenbring it back to their clients
(41:54):
to say, hey, if you don't have arental license, there's a
website out there for tenants inPhiladelphia.
Hey, if you don't have a rentallicense, there's a website out
there for tenants inPhiladelphia that tells them
they don't need to pay rent andyou can't evict them.
And, by the way, they can go,look for your rental license.
It's public information on theinternet, so tenants are getting
more keen to it.
Those stories are spreading andjust the importance of the
(42:18):
actual regulations to do it theright way in Philadelphia have
been huge for me.
Staying on top of that and thenmaking it bite-sized
information for them to passalong to their clients.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Somebody turns over a referral to you as management
you mentioned and I've neverheard anybody else doing this,
but you you mentioned you letthem list it for lease for the
first time as sort of a I don'tknow parting gift to them to say
like you can take this listing,uh, lease listing commission.
I'm curious about the how doesthat work with the landlord?
(42:58):
Who do they communicate with?
Do they communicate with theleasing agent that works for the
other brokerage?
Do they communicate with you?
It seems like a good idea frombuilding goodwill with the
referral agent or referrer, butI could see where that causes a
(43:18):
little bit of confusion andauthority down the road with.
Well, no, you've hired me asthe expert in leasing and
property management.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, so they can.
If that happens, theycommunicate with their listing
agent up until the applicationpoint, so that agent's
responsible.
You know we go in and we'llgive them a list of the make
ready and still help them makeit ready for the next tenant.
But they communicate with thatlisting agent up until there's
an application.
So we take over and essentiallywork for free to screen the
(43:50):
tenant and write the lease andthen that's where we take over
and they depart and we do it aton.
We've had one issue with theother agent jumping back in and
negotiating the renewal.
I never thought I had.
I never communicated like hey,we have the renewal, every other
agent has just assumed it.
(44:12):
But now we know, right, there'sa policy of something that we
need to implement, of like hey,we'll handle the renewal.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Like yeah, yeah just on the way in not not continuous
yeah, it really hasn't been aproblem.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Everyone everyone I tell it to that's been in the
industry for a while, tells meI'm an idiot and that I'm crazy
for doing that.
But it it's a source ofbusiness that you know, and then
I'll lease the place when itcomes up for lease next time and
no problem.
But it's kind of like theparting referral fee in a sense,
which I'll pay anyway.
But yeah, really haven't hadany issues.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Well, Mike, it's been a pleasure having you on.
It's been fun to get to knowyou over the last couple of
years here and it's been fun tokind of watch your growth and
transition as you went fromoperating a business that was.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
You can say it, don't hold back on me.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Well, it was in a state of chaos and, at some
level, right, and all businessesare, so I'm not trying to throw
shots, but it's been fun towatch you stack the pieces in
the right order as you'rebuilding out the business now,
and I can see that future thatyou're talking about, where you
(45:28):
are able to walk away in fiveyears and have somebody else
running the business for you andnot having to be the person
that holds it all together.
So I appreciate you letting mehave that insight into the
business and I appreciate youbeing on with us today.
Is there anything that I shouldhave asked or that you want to
talk about as we close out?
Speaker 2 (45:48):
No, I think we hit it all pretty well.
I wish we don't have time toreally dive into it.
I wish there was betterresources for brand new property
managers.
And that's in the back of mybrain.
I can only give away so much ofmy time, but I just wish there
was something out there for newproperty managers with no hidden
(46:10):
agendas, all right, mike.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Thanks for hopping on .
It was great seeing you andwe'll connect again soon.
Awesome Thanks, tony.
Thanks for tuning in to, it wasgreat seeing you and we'll
connect again soon.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Awesome Thanks, Tony.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Thanks for tuning in to the Property Management
Success Podcast.
We'll be back with anothervalue-packed episode to help you
level up your propertymanagement game.
If you've got somethingvaluable out of today's episode,
please share it with a friendor colleague, and don't forget
to subscribe and leave a reviewso you never miss out on future
insights and strategies andtactics.
Until next time.
(46:39):
Here's to your success.
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