March 17, 2025 • 44 mins
Cody Reeder shares his journey from real estate investor with four duplexes to managing over 900 properties while building a separate maintenance company and maintaining his passion for ultra-running. He reveals how initially trying to survive on management fees alone wasn't sustainable until he discovered additional revenue streams that made the business truly profitable.
• Started in ad sales before transitioning to real estate investing in the early 2000s
• Originally believed property management was simply "collecting rent and smiling all the way to the bank"
• Grew personal investment portfolio to over 200 units including two 45-plexes
• Transitioned to third-party management out of necessity when tenants left his commercial building
• Now manages approximately 700 third-party units with a team of 13, including 5 remote employees
• Created a separate maintenance company called Service Depot that generates significant revenue
• Grew business primarily through education rather than traditional marketing
• Became a CE instructor teaching real estate agents about investor mindset
• Employs multiple family members while maintaining clear performance expectations
• Draws parallels between property management challenges and ultra-running endurance
If you're going to be successful in property management, you need to look beyond just management fees and find additional revenue streams while positioning yourself as an expert in your field.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I went in with I mean, this may sound bad, but I
went in with the intention ofsaying I can make this work off
of management fees and I'm goingto take over the world.
You know, at least NorthernUtah, it was not long into it
where I was just like we weren'tAndra and I, my wife and I we
weren't making any money.
We were paying everybody but weweren't getting paid at all.
(00:20):
And so I came to thisrealization after I met you and
Sean and some others, that Ijust was so impressed with what
you guys were teaching me at thetime that I was like, yeah,
this is the only way to make itwork.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the Property Management Success
Podcast, where we interviewleaders in the industry to
uncover the secrets toprofitability, efficiency and
achieving true freedom.
Whether it's your time, moneyor lifestyle, I'm your host,
tony Klein, and I'm here to helpyou build a wildly successful
property management business.
Let's get to it.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Property Management
(00:59):
Success Podcast.
Today, I am really excited tohave my good friend Cody Reeder
on with Reeder Asset Managementout of Utah.
Cody, welcome.
Thank you, tony.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on for a few reasons.
Number one I remember the firsttime you and I met was at a
NARPUM conference and you weresitting at a little little like
twotop table out on a patio, Ithink it was.
Were we in Florida?
I think, yeah, we were inFlorida, yeah, and I walked by
and I saw you had two thingsthat caught my attention.
(01:33):
You had on a Garmin watch andyou had on, I think, a pair of
Hoka's.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
They were Altras, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Altras.
Okay yeah, good running shoes.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And.
I'm like there's not too manypeople.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, not too many people in this property
management conference area thatwould have the combination of
those a good pair of runningshoes, good trail shoes and a
good running watch.
And so I struck up aconversation with you, and
within probably a half hour Istruck up a conversation with
you, and within probably a halfhour you had convinced me to run
(02:06):
my first 100-mile race, theBear 100, out of Logan, utah,
there.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Great memories, yeah, great memories.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, good times, and so maybe we'll come back to
running, but I really want tofocus on giving our audience the
opportunity to get to know youas a property management
entrepreneur and a real estateinvestor.
So if you could just take usback, just give a brief intro to
your how you got into propertymanagement and real estate
(02:34):
investing.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah Well, thank you again for having me.
This will be fun.
So I was actually doing.
My former life was in ad sales.
So if you're older thanprobably 30, you probably
remember yellow page ads.
Like you know, no one nowadayseven knows what a yellow page is
, but I was selling yellow pageads.
So I got a lot of experience insales and that that type of
(02:57):
thing.
And then in the late ninetiesthis new thing called the
worldwide web was going to takeover the world and put print
media out of business.
So anyone that was in printmedia kind of went frantically
running for an alternativecareer.
And I was much the same.
I knew that probably going tobe ending within just a few
(03:17):
short years.
And one night I was watching aninfomercial and I saw a guy
talking about a no money downsystem.
His Name was Carlton sheets Idoubt he's even still around, to
be honest, but a no money downsystem in real estate.
And I never bought the course,but it kind of like got me
thinking about things and at thetime I was just like you know,
(03:38):
anybody could be a propertymanager.
I mean, how hard could it be?
You buy a property and collectrents, all you do is collect
rent, right, yeah, and then justkind of smile and laugh all the
way to the bank.
So my wife and I have alwayslived pretty conservative, so we
did have a chunk of money setset aside for savings and in
savings.
And so we found a duplex rightnext to Utah state university
(03:59):
and bought it and I was hookedright from the start as an
investor not not so much as aproperty manager yet, but as an
investor.
I just loved it and this wasback right after 2000.
And if you had a belly button,they'd give you a loan back.
In those days I mean, they weredoing a hundred percent loans
and like just crazy stuff, whichis a lot of the reason we ended
up where we did in 08.
(04:21):
Yeah, we in that first year webought four duplexes right next
to Utah State and we justleveraged one to get the other.
So we were very highlyleveraged early on.
Taking the equity out of oneand just parlaying that into the
next and the next really hashelped me build my portfolio to
(04:42):
where it's at now.
I ended up selling all four ofthose and rolling that into.
It was like a 20 plex, butthere was a bunch of storage
units and some homes that wentalong with it.
So I grew it from there to thatand then I just kept going and
adding now bigger apartmentcomplexes, and so now this many,
(05:04):
many years later, we're at justover 200 units that my wife and
I just own personally, and twoof those are 45 plexes, so
pretty good size units.
A couple of commercialbuildings.
We have a block in Logan thatwe own pretty much from Main
Street to First East and then500 North to 600 North pretty
(05:25):
much that whole block.
So there's some developmentopportunities there for us.
But my heart always was kind oflike in the investor world.
But around 2010, just after 8,the building one of the
commercial buildings I own isabout 25,000 square feet, has
four total offices in it, and Igot notice about six months
(05:46):
after I bought that buildingfrom both those tenants that
they were moving and I waspretty scared.
I'll be honest.
I had already left that the adworld and had pretty much was
100% into the real estate and Iwas pretty scared because it was
like that was.
That meant I was pretty muchbreaking even and if I had one
more person leave I was going tobe sunk.
So I for years have had friendssee my growth and see my
(06:11):
property management and ask meto manage for them, and I just
didn't have any interest in itand I kind of decided to
entertain that now, more out ofnecessity, more out of fear that
I just didn't have a backupincome if my investments went
south.
About how long ago was that?
As far as the propertymanagement?
Or okay, yeah, so that was justafter that would have been 2012
(06:34):
.
So 2010 was where I got noticedthat these two companies were
leaving, and so I startedentertaining the notion of like
maybe I will again, more out ofnecessity, start managing for
some of these folks that hadreached out.
I saw it as another source ofincome in case the investments
went south.
And so, yeah, it was rightaround that time period and I
(06:58):
started doing third-partymanagement, and so that's kind
of like how I kind of morphedfrom my own investments to
offering third-party management,and so we were pretty much up
and going.
We coupled with the units Ialready had and the friends I
brought on.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Like we started with a fair amount of properties
right from the start, and whenyou got into property management
, when you transitioned frombeing a real estate investor
which I wouldn't saytransitioned, I guess, when you
added being a property managerwhich I wouldn't say
transitioned, I guess, when youadded being a property manager
because you're still doing thereal estate investing Were you
already licensed as a licensedagent, or did you have to go get
(07:33):
your license in order to startdoing third-party?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So I actually had gone and got my sales agent
license before then because Ialso felt at the time I was
buying bigger and bigger andmore and more properties and a
large part of that was going outto real estate agents that,
quite honestly, great folks,still good friends to this day
but they just didn't understandthe differences between buying
(07:59):
and selling for an owneroccupied versus an investor and
that investor mindset and Iwould task them with certain
things like I'm looking for thistype of property that's getting
.
I mean, some of them didn't evenknow what NOI stood for and so
I was just like I'm going to bemuch better off doing my own
research and ultimately I justwent and got my sales license at
that time.
But in the state of Utahcurrently there's some changes
(08:21):
in the air, but currently youhave to operate under a
brokerage.
So even if you have your salesagent license, you still have to
tie yourself to a brokerage.
So in one of my commercialbuildings that I own I have a
real estate company.
I tied myself to her brokerageuntil I was able to get the
points necessary to get mybroker's license.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
And so this is 2012-ish, when you transition
into third-party propertymanagement.
So we are about what?
13 years Fast forward.
Where are you guys now as faras size of your team, size of
your portfolio?
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So we're, as we have ours, 200, then we have probably
another 700 that we dothird-party management.
Our team is so about 2018,let's say 17,.
Before then we had in-housemaintenance.
In 2017, we decided to splitoff and do a separate
(09:19):
maintenance company, and so wehad a separate management and
maintenance company, and so ourmaintenance company is, and so
we had a separate management andmaintenance company, and so our
maintenance company is calledService Depot and our management
company is Reeder AssetManagement.
So with Reeder, we're probablyI want to say, 13 employees and
our maintenance is probably 15,something like that.
But our maintenance also, nowthat it's an independent company
(09:42):
, we're getting more and morework just from consumers and
other management companies to do.
We have licensed a masterplumber, HVAC, we have our own
carpet cleaning trucks, all ofthat, so we do some quite a bit
of outside work as well, so thatone's kind of grown outside of
Reader.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I think it's interesting I want to touch on.
It's so fascinating to me howpeople structure their property
management companies and thenhow they they staff it and what
positions or what roles andresponsibilities they have, plus
how many players or people theyhave on the team.
And you guys are.
It sounds like you're runningreally lean and efficient.
(10:20):
You've got essentially your 200plus 700.
So we got 900 properties we'remanaging with a team of 13
people.
Are most of them local or is ita split between local and
remote?
What's kind?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
of the makeup there.
We have five remote.
So we have two in thePhilippines, one in Mexico sorry
, yeah One in Mexico, one inPanama and one from Jamaica.
So we've got five remote andthe rest are local and, quite
honestly, half of those arefamily.
So my wife, she's kind of overall of our accounting.
(10:56):
My daughter, she's our regionalmanager.
We have three different areasso we service almost 130 miles
and so we have a Logan officeand then we have an Ogden If
you're familiar with NorthernUtah, we have an Ogden office
and then we have a Salt Lakeoffice.
My stepson he's, he does all ofour maintenance coordination
(11:18):
and kind of his wife does.
We have a kind of utilitybilling department, so to speak.
She does all of that.
One of my other daughters worksfor Service Depot.
So it's a total family affair.
In fact, every one of my kidsand almost all their spouses
work for me.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Now I wasn't going to go down this detour yet, but I
want to, since we're here, talkabout the culture, and I was
going to lean before.
You told me about the familycomponent I was going to lean
into.
You have people all over theglobe that are serving clients
here in the US and I'm curioushow do you create a culture or
(11:57):
how do you unify the level ofservice that you provide?
Because it just seems like whenwe bring remote people into
remote team members into ourteam, it's hard to get them up
to speed on what we actually dohere.
You know, some of them don'thave furnaces.
Like they don't you need toreplace a furnace.
They don't know how much thatshould cost, right?
(12:18):
So if they're on the maininside.
So I'm just curious did you,did you intentionally go out to
build a remote team, or was itwe lost somebody and we just it
was easier just to add one ortwo remote people to take their
place?
I'm just curious how you managethat with having the remotes.
(12:38):
And then I want to ask how youmix that with the family dynamic
as well.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah Well, and a lot of this is kind of credit to you
.
After I got to know you and youwere so more than you'll ever
know, instrumental in helping meunderstand.
Up to that point we only triedto survive off of management
fees.
And it was you that kind ofbrought all these other
(13:05):
opportunities to the table.
And you know we can talk aboutthat at some point if you'd like
to.
But part of that was the remoteteam members and so we went out
purposeful.
I mean it was very purposeful.
We're looking for somebody whohad maintenance experience, who
had worked with a managementcompany before and kind of knew
all that already.
So we were pretty purposefulfor each of those roles.
(13:26):
And then we just got fortunatethat a couple of people we hired
knew someone.
And I mean we did hire a newone, I think a year ago, but our
remote team members have beenwith us for five years now.
So we've been pretty fortunate.
There has been a learning curve.
I mean it's hard to describeHVAC to someone in Jamaica, or
heat period to some.
(13:47):
You know the need of heating,but she came with her own
experience and just she was ableto hit the ground running.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
So and then, tying into that component, add that
family layer which I've alwayssaid kind of tongue in cheek.
Now my son-in-law works for menow so I've broken this rule,
although he doesn't know it.
But I say, you know, never hiresomebody you can't fire,
because it creates this weirddynamic of well, now they're
(14:14):
here and now they're stuck.
And so it's been really clear.
You know, he on my team knowsthere's a performance plan and
the system runs.
The company we determine here'swhat our KPIs are, here's the
system determines whether or notwe're being successful.
How do you manage on your end,that dynamic of you got a lot of
family members and they all gotto get along.
(14:37):
You know, off the clock butalso on the clock, how do you
manage that?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
I've just been fortunate, I guess.
I mean it was a concern becausemy wife's family, her dad
rather had a business and a lotof the siblings worked for her
dad and they're kind offractured, quite honestly, and
it's kind of sad, and so it hasconcerned me a lot.
I think I don't even know.
I can only say that one thing Ido think is they all understand
(15:05):
that they can come to me withideas but at the end of the day,
you know it's my call and theymay not totally agree with it,
but the understanding is theyjust get behind it.
Most of them have been with mefor three plus years and so I
don't.
I've never been in thatposition where I've had to sit
one down and say you know I'vegot a, you know we've we've got
some performance issues here.
(15:25):
I don't know how to answer that, other than I've just been very
fortunate that we just I thinkit might be built in our DNA, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, all right.
Well, let's uh, let's shiftgears a little bit.
So you, you started out at 200.
You said, hey, look, out ofnecessity we're going to have to
add some doors.
And again, when you firststarted adding those doors, you
were basically just it'smanagement fees I'm going to
make, I'm going to squeeze aliving out of this by.
(15:52):
I'm going to charge X dollarsor X percent in management fees,
and hopefully I can stackenough nickels to make a dollar.
And you, you rolled that out.
You are at a significant sizenow.
To add an additional 700 unitson top of what you own
personally, that's significantgrowth.
You, statistically, are largerthan most of the property
(16:15):
management companies in thecountry just statistically.
And I know there's somemammoths out there that are
bigger than you, but most aresmall and most are wanting to
grow.
Whether they want to get toyour size or not, most are
trying to figure out how to add.
How did you go from I gotreally maybe a handful of people
that trusted me with theirproperties in the beginning to a
(16:37):
portfolio of 700.
What were you doing?
What did that growth look like?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, I think a lot of it was, because and when you
say I was trying to scrapnickels together and make it
work just off of management fees, that was certainly a lot of it
was, because my and when yousay I was trying to scrap, scrap
nickels together and make amake it work just off of
management fees, that wascertainly a part of it.
But really I intended I wantedto, I wanted to go in and prove
that I could do it just off ofmanagement fees.
So I went in with I mean thismay sound bad, but I went in
(17:03):
with the intention of saying Ican make this work off of
management fees and I'm going totake over the world.
You know, at least NorthernUtah and you know it was not
long into it where I was justlike we weren't Andra and I, my
wife and I, we weren't makingany money.
We were paying everybody but weweren't getting paid at all.
And so, either, you know, Icame to this realization after I
(17:26):
met you and Sean and someothers that I just was so
impressed with what you guyswere teaching me at the time
that I was like, yeah, this isthe only way to make it work.
And I kind of chuckle when Iwhen I hear of new management
companies or a real estate agentthat's getting into it, that
they're doing the same thingthat I did and you know I don't
blame them because I did itmyself but I just kind of have
(17:47):
to laugh to myself and it's likeone day you're going to figure
out that there's more to it thanjust that.
But yeah, I grew pretty organic.
I never really put in any moneyinto advertising what I do.
I did connect with a lot of realestate agents Not too long
after I got my broker license,became a CE.
(18:07):
I went through everything tobecome a CE instructor for the
Utah Real Estate Division and soI did what I call a roadshow
where I'd take my CE on the roadand just offer free CE.
Most real estate companies, atleast here, have a weekly sales
meeting and so sometimes they'reshort on material and so I
would just offer to step in foran hour and if everyone wanted
(18:30):
to show up and get an hour offree CE.
Most of them were about realestate investing.
I have a class that teachessales agents how to help
investors like myself know thelingo, the investor mindset, the
different you've got flippers,wholesalers buy and holds.
You got all kinds of differentmindsets.
You got young.
(18:50):
You've got people that areretired, that have a lot of
money to put down, you got thosethat are just trying to, you
know, bootstrap somethingtogether, so just to teach real
estate agents about the investormindset, and that was just very
, very successful.
I mean, I was out every single,sometimes every single day to
these real estate companies andjust giving them free CE and
their jaws would just drop tothe ground when they looked at
(19:13):
what it means to be an investorthrough the lens of an actual
investor.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So I'd say a lot of it was that market to be
different.
You know I talk all the timeabout as a property management
company or a property managementcompany owner.
We need to figure out how tobreak through the noise so that
the consumer that can't tell usapart, they don't know what
makes us different.
So we're all the same untilwe're not.
(19:43):
We're all the same until wegive them a reason to think that
we're different.
And it's the same thing withthe real estate agents when
they're looking for theirreferral or refer-ee-er whoever
they're going to refer to whenthey have clients that want to
buy investment properties.
And in making those connections, I see so many people spending
(20:04):
thousands of dollars a month onSEO and having people ghostwrite
blogs for them, and all that'sdoing is competing online in a
way that doesn't really set youapart.
You know one of the things thatsomebody told me once and I've
probably said that this too muchon this podcast over the
different episodes but peopledon't teach because they're
(20:28):
experts.
They're perceived as expertsbecause they teach.
And you are you.
I mean, obviously you need toknow what you're talking about
when you, when you're going toteach, and I think it's one of
the best ways to learn a subjectis to teach it.
But when you're out in front ofeven if it's a group of five or
six people you know, hopefully,when you go and teach these CE
(20:49):
classes there's a room full of10 or 20, but even if it's five
or six, you're standing up inthe front of the room presenting
information as if you are anexpert or the authority.
All of the sudden, there's justthis shift in the relationship
where you're not begging forreferrals, you're not begging
(21:09):
for the opportunity to talk tothem, you're on an even playing
field with them, and I just lovethat approach.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, it sails through education and it's been
phenomenal.
And it was a large part of thereason after that became pretty
successful.
It was a large part of thereason that I got involved with
the Real Estate HousingAssociation Board and I kind of
went in through their educationdepartment and so I was tasked
with teaching some of the goodlandlord programs.
Now you're limited on what youcan say when you're actually in
(21:39):
a class as far as like hey, I'mCody with Reader Asset
Management.
Come and use me Like you can'tself-promote, but it doesn't
take much to find out who's upthere teaching the class.
And again, I just let theeducation speak for itself.
So I don't do anyself-promotion in these things,
but I can tell you that I meanI've had so many brokers come
and say you were at my classlast year, we've got this
(22:03):
investor, they've got 20 units.
We'd love to connect you.
It's been really successful andit's what I love.
I mean I'm not a great naturalteacher, but if I have the time
to study the material and it'ssomething I know, like I
couldn't get up and just dosomething on the fly.
But if it's something I'mreally passionate about, like
(22:23):
the investor side, like fairhousing.
I mean I do several fairhousing classes because I've
been embroiled in some fairhousing lawsuits.
It's like it's, it's, it's.
It's something I love to teach.
Then it people sense that theysense that you're, you're that,
you're that you're.
You know that.
What's the word I'm looking for, that you are.
I want to say original, butthat's not the word.
Authentic, vulnerable,authentic.
(22:46):
Thank you that you're authentic, you know.
You're just you're out there toteach rather than sell.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah.
Are there any other marketingefforts that you've seen be
successful in?
I guess let me put a little bitof additional information on
that.
So in the beginning you werethe one that was bringing in all
of the properties.
Is it still you doing thebusiness development, or do you
have somebody else that now doesthat for you?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
with the brokers, the real estate agents we do a lot
of.
I guess when I say we haven'tdone any marketing, that's not
entirely true because I dosponsor, like golf holes at
tournaments for the realtors andhousing association events and
those types of things, and Ilove being out there, I love
doing that stuff.
But I have hired three BDMs.
Two were absolute failures.
One was very successful and hewas kind of starting his real
estate career and he's stillwith us but he's kind of moved
(23:50):
from the sales of real estate toalso have a real estate company
that does sales, which I'venever promoted much and he
really wanted to take this.
He's like I think we can growthe sales side of your business
as well and I'm like I don'thave any time, but if it's
something that you're you knowyou want to try, then I'm like I
don't have any time, but ifit's something that you're you
know you want to try, then sohe's working on getting his
broker license to be able to runmy sales, which is connect real
(24:12):
estate is the name of my salescompany.
But so I'm actually back todoing a lot of the BDM because
he's focused on that.
I don't want to do this forever.
So I'll probably be lookinghere in the next, probably this
year, for someone to kind ofcome in and replace me.
He actually did really good, soI've had I'm one out of two,
one out of three that it's beensuccessful.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
So BDMs are they're.
They're hard to come by to agood one, right?
Because sales is you're, you'rein the sales role, you're so
disconnected from the rest ofthe organization because, your
job is to bring them in, andthen it's up to ops to not screw
it up, and then ops is lookingat the salesperson saying, well,
(24:50):
why'd you bring in that door?
That doesn't match the rest ofour portfolio, right?
So there's this rub between thetwo, okay.
So back to the question, though, that I originally asked before
I added that extra layer on it.
As far as the marketing efforts, I think it's great to be out
in the marketplace and againposition yourself as the
(25:11):
authority or the expert in themarketplace.
Are you doing anything besidesthat, which I know?
That's a lot, that's a lot morethan most people do.
Most people just sit behindtheir desk and hope the phone
rings and then they wonder whythey're not growing.
But are you doing any digitalmedia, social media, direct mail
, any SEO work?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
So I did bring on a guy recently to help us.
I guess it definitely wouldaffect SEO.
But because we're in so manycommunities if someone Googles
property management, riverdale,some of these bedroom
communities of the larger areasI wanted to have a presence in
each of those areas.
And I know nothing about SEO,digital social.
(25:55):
I mean, I have them, but Ithink the last time I posted in
some of these is probably six orseven years ago.
So I'm just not.
I would love to be that, butI'm just not, and so I hired a
guy to come in and kind of helpme with some of this stuff.
So I guess the jury's still outon that.
I don't know if it's helping ornot.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
All right, I want to lean into now you, cody Reeder,
as the investor.
I find a lot of the people thatI work with, either with my
coaching or just people that Imeet at conferences, and I find
out that they're big investors.
A lot of people will come up tome that are investors that are
trying to get into thatthird-party management.
(26:32):
They're trying to make thatleap that you made and their
investor brain gets in the wayof them being successful with
their property manager brain,because they look at what we
have to charge in order to dothe work that we do and as an
investor, they say, well, Icould do that for cheaper than
that.
And they could.
If they got on a plane and flewout here and, you know, booked
(26:55):
a hotel room and went andchanged those four light bulbs
and replaced the furnace andpainted that back room, they
probably could do it for cheaperif they weren't accounting for
all of their time and everything.
Did you have a hard timereconciling what you had to
charge once you started doingthird-party management, or was
that a fairly easy transitionfor you?
Speaker 1 (27:18):
For me it was fairly easy.
I've had other people bringthat concern as I met them at
different NARPM events and askedthat same question.
For me it was fairly easy.
I do feel like, even though I'mnot tech savvy, I do feel like
I bought into the wholeautomation and all of that, and
(27:41):
so I've just hired people thatknow much more about that than I
do, and so I just have alwaysunderstood that I bill myself
exactly like everybody else getsbilled.
So if I have you know, just theother day, actually, I got a
work order I see all the workorders like our company, before
we do anything, we reach out tothe owner and, whether it's a
$50 or $5,000 work order, likewe at least notify the owner
(28:03):
that this is happening.
Sometimes the owners willinterject and say you know, I'll
, I'll go take care of it.
I got one the other day andliterally the cold air return
vent had fallen off and thetenant did not own a screwdriver
, and so I'm faced with thislike I've either got to pay $75
to go have this done, cause Ithey charged me exactly what
(28:23):
they would charge any otherowner, or I got to go do it
myself and I was not even aroundto do it.
So I think by me going throughthose exact scenarios that our
owners go through, I think hasput me on that same level of
understanding and probablyempathy when those do come
through.
But also to your point, I alsorecognize the other side of it,
(28:45):
that the time is worth something.
There is a cost handyman prices,hvac, plumbing, all those, all
those costs are going up acrossthe board and it puts me in a
unique position when I have anowner that has concerns about
that, that and I do call upowners and I will say I
understand your concern, I feelit with you and here's what
we're facing, here's what ourindustry's facing, here's what
(29:07):
these other industries arefacing, and so I think it's
actually been a good thing andby doing it this way and I don't
think I ever had an issuemaking that crossover- Well,
while we're on the topic ofmaintenance, there's a lot of
management companies that theygrow from zero doors up to 250,
(29:27):
300 doors and they think I'msending out a lot of maintenance
, I'm sending out a lot of justwork orders to different vendors
and I'd like to figure out howto bring that in-house.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And I'd like to figure out how to bring that
in-house and it sounds like youguys, did you ever have in-house
maintenance and then peel thatoff, or was it always just
totally separate.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
We started with in-house maintenance and I think
it was actually at a NARPMconference.
One of the speakers had talkedabout separating it off and I
just thought it was a great idea.
And so, really, how ourshappened in 2017, we were, we
were, I will say, in-house forall for this discussion.
(30:10):
Let's just call it in-house.
We did actually separate it asa different company, but nobody
knew it.
We never marketed anything butit.
Basically, they were in oursame office.
We did everything.
They had everything.
But there was a company that weused a lot was called Service
Depot, and they did mostlyappliance repair, and so we were
always calling them for all ofour appliance repair stuff, and
I've never liked maintenance.
(30:31):
It's not something I'm good atmy wife is much better at it
than I am and so I've alwayswanted to go out and just be
able to get somebody to do thework out and just be able to to
get somebody to do the work.
And in 2017, I, the owner ofservice Depot and myself we got
together and we just startedtalking about maybe forming a
partnership with service Depotand, uh, it had been around for
(30:54):
probably 10 or plus years beforeme and, uh, because he was, he
already had that experience withmaintenance.
Yeah, it was, it was appliance,but they kind of were like they
understood, he understood that,he understood service, that,
that, that industry, and so we,I bought into it.
I actually became a majorityowner of service Depot and the
(31:15):
idea was he would run it.
So I was just kind of like themoney behind it, he would run it
and he.
So he went from three guys up tolike 13 overnight, basically
because we were just sending himso much work he couldn't sleep,
he couldn't eat, he was likestressed out all the time, and
so six months later he came andasked if I would buy him out
completely.
He just wanted out.
So I went from having this likepseudo or quasi inside
(31:39):
maintenance company tooutsourcing it to this company
that I was somewhat involvedwith, to taking the entire
company back.
So now I own an entiremaintenance company and so
that's kind of how we ended upwith Service Depot.
Quite honestly, I'm not amaintenance guy.
I don't understand it.
We've done well because my wifeshe's really good at that, but
(32:02):
that's been my personal struggle.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
So if you were to just kind of off the top of the
head, evaluate the profitabilityor the long-term future of the
management company versus themaintenance company, which one
is generating more profit perdoor?
Speaker 1 (32:25):
per unit.
The maintenance companydefinitely does better than the
management, which is surprisingfor me to even hear myself say
but a lot of that comes becausewe own the management company.
I mean, if that went away, 80%of our work goes away and we're
getting more and more directfrom the consumer.
But yeah, I think it ceases toexist without the management
company.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
When we first started talking about your maintenance
company, you mentioned that youare doing direct-to-consumer,
but you're also doing some workfor some other property
management companies and I findthat fascinating because it's
almost like they know you're amanagement.
Well, maybe they don't knowbecause you've rebranded it or
you've branded separately.
It's not reader management andreader maintenance, it's service
(33:09):
depot.
So has there been any frictionor pushback by offering your
services to other managementcompanies?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
So we don't necessarily offer the service to
other management companies.
Really, how that happened isthey were using also using
Service Depot long before we gotinvolved and so a lot of that
is, and Service Depot just hassuch a great reputation long
before I bought it and so theyjust continued.
Most probably don't even know.
I can think of two specificinstances that once they learned
(33:38):
that I owned it, they no longeruse us.
So you know, but that was neverthe intention, it's just it's.
It's happened that way and thatthat's fine, you know.
I mean, we're happy to help andif they, I get the perception
of a conflict of interest and Iunderstand that.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
All right, but I want I want to change our topic here
, but before I cause, I'm goingto go off off property
management for a minute, allright, but before I do, is there
anything that you want to talkabout?
You think I should have asked,or that is off the top of your
head, either for the maintenancepiece or the third-party
management piece.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Well, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you or any of
your listeners or viewers this,but I kind of glossed over a
lot, as though I got from hereto here without much.
There's been a lot of stress, alot of stressful nights.
You and I have talked.
You probably don't evenremember, because you were on
the back end of the Moab 240 andI'm sure your head was, but I
(34:32):
remember spending probably 16hours with you talking about
some struggles that I was havingand you were giving me some
awesome advice.
You probably don't evenremember it's not come without a
cost.
So I would only say it's, it'sbeen, it's.
It's just not as easy as asmaking it and everything will
fall into place.
It's, it's been.
(34:52):
It's not come without a cost.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, well, that's, that's a great lead in, because
I did want to shift over andtalk a little bit about ultra
running.
I have a co-host on some of theepisodes, mark Brower, and he's
a distance runner as well, andso we talk a little bit.
We call it the PropertyManagement Aid Station, so I'm
(35:15):
going to bring that into thisepisode a little bit, but I do
remember as well as I can.
We were on the back half of theMoab 240.
I think you had picked me up atlike mile 203 and we're going
to take me into the finish andit's dark out, there's snow and
(35:36):
ice on the ground, we can seeour breath and we were talking
about lead, simple processes andautomations and how you know
there were some things in thebusiness that may have been over
automated and we were going totry to see if we could take away
some of those choices so, asbest I could.
Being 200 miles and multipledays in, I do remember that.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
That's impressive.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, but the reason I wanted to bring up ultra
running is I feel like by bypushing your limits and in
finding what's possible inrunning, I personally feel like
it's made me better in otherareas, and I just wondered if
there was any sort ofrelationship that you saw with
some of those difficult timesthat you talked about that you
(36:23):
just glossed over.
Is there any correlation withyour ability to suffer through
in business that made you a goodultra runner, or the fact that
you're able to suffer through inrunning and know that it never
always gets worse and you comeout the other side?
I'm fascinated because there'sonly a handful of us that I know
(36:44):
of in this business that arealso participating in in these
races that are as extreme as theones that you and I run.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Oh yeah, no question, I mean almost every day uh it,
it.
There's so many correlationsand I think everybody may
doesn't have to be ultra.
It can be anything hard.
I think when you push throughum it just it's like you know, I
, I uh one of our meetings thatwe uh our monthly meeting,
meetings that we do as a team.
I talk about a lobster's growthand how you know, for it to
(37:14):
grow it has to crack throughthat shell and it's very painful
.
And then it grows another shelland it has to crack through
that shell and that's kind ofthe growth of a lobster and
there's no doubt that it'shelped both ways, going both
ways.
In fact, I have a kind of afunny joke.
When I start one of my CEclasses, I'm introducing me and
what I like to do personally andI say I'm a middle of the pack
(37:36):
endurance runner, probably moreback of the pack nowadays, but a
middle of the pack endurancerunner and I, you know I'm not
real fast but I can suffer for avery long time, which is
probably why I'm in propertymanagement.
So it gets a lot of good laughs.
But it's true, I mean, and itgoes both ways, and I think
about some of the things youknow.
We had a we've had several fairhousing lawsuits that we've had
(37:57):
to that we've had to addressand go up against.
Some have gone fairly quick andeasy.
We got out of them prettyharmless or without much
backlash at the end, but one Imean we ended up winning that
one also, but it took 10 monthsand it was very painful and I
think if I didn't have a lot ofthat experience of just being
(38:18):
able to suffer through and knowthat you will hit zero but it
will get better, absolutely I'mconvinced that that helped for
sure.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
You don't have to lean into the fair housing
details, but I think there's alot of people that get into this
business that the first timethey have somebody, I was on a
panel.
I was on a stage down in Texasat an event and I asked the
audience to raise their hand ifthey remembered the first time
that they were threatened to besued by a tenant.
(38:48):
And of course you knoweverybody remembers that,
because it's a big deal, right.
And the first time you'reactually served with papers,
somebody rings your doorbell orcomes to the office or whatever,
and they serve you with papers.
It's a traumatic deal.
Nowadays, somebody threatens tosue.
It's like, okay.
Well, let me tell you how thisprocess goes.
Because you've brought up yourattorney, it's our policy that
(39:10):
we no longer have directcommunication.
Here is our attorney'sinformation.
Now, if you do want to finishout this conversation, you and I
I'm happy to do that, but ifyou're going to bring your
attorney into it, here's ourattorney's contact information.
Have a nice day and they tendto back off versus you going
into this.
You know this flustered panic.
And then I asked.
The next question was how manyof you remember the first time a
(39:32):
tenant died in one of yourunits and you know there wasn't
quite as much laughter, butthere was as much like, yeah, I
remember that that's a bigtraumatic deal.
And there's these little thingsthat happen to us that if it
doesn't wipe us out, it doeseventually make us stronger in
being able to handle thesethings.
And there's not any training inproperty management.
(39:54):
There's no training on how todo that.
And I think ultra running, orfacing some challenge, something
hard, or facing some challengesomething hard, like you said,
being able to overcome somethingthat is just a little bit
outside of your comfort zone itdoesn't have to even be beyond
your limits, but just more thanwhat you're used to I think just
(40:15):
makes you so much moreresilient and I wish there were
more ways for people to dodifficult things, because it
does help so much in thisbusiness, because there is no
training for how to overcomesome of these really nasty
things that we wind up facing.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, I recently finished a book called the
Comfort Crisis.
I don't know if you're with it.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I've listened to it three times.
I just finished it two weeksago for the third time.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
I love it.
Yeah, so much, so many goldennuggets in there.
I love that, but but that's,that's at the heart of what
you're talking about, and itreally is.
I, you know, even growing or asmy kids grew up, I would talk
about this envelope of comfort,and every time you push that
envelope you've just pushed intoa bigger envelope until you
finally get to a point where, asyou said earlier, your first
one is like so traumaticNowadays.
(41:06):
It's exactly what you said.
You know here's my attorney'snumber.
You brought the attorney intoit so you can contact them.
And you know, I remember thefirst eviction, I remember the
first death, I remember thefirst fair housing.
All of them, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Well, cody, I really appreciate you coming on and
sharing your history, yourwisdom, your insights with us.
I'm going to close out with aquestion that you don't know is
coming, okay, but I'm going toask you on air here so that we
can try to pressure you intosaying yes, but I am in for the
(41:42):
Coca-Donona 250.
Oh, yay All right, if you wantto come down and pace.
It's in May, may 5th throughthe 10th.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
If you want to come down and pace, you've got as
many miles as you want, allright, well of course, with this
one carve out, I am stilldealing with some Achilles
issues, some uh uh tendinopathyor tendonitis, I don't know.
They've never really said whichone Sounds like, maybe the same
, but I would love to.
Moab's always been thehighlight of my October, so
(42:13):
we'll just make a highlight ofmy spring now, all right?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Well, don't back off because we're going back to Moab
in October.
All right, well, I'm there too,We'll knock them both out.
All right buddy, I appreciateyou so much.
Thanks for hopping on.
I appreciate you, thank you.
Thanks for tuning in to theProperty Management Success
Podcast.
We'll be back with anothervalue-packed episode to help you
level up your propertymanagement game, if you've got
something valuable out oftoday's episode.
No-transcript.
So I went in with I mean, this may sound bad, but I
went in with the intention ofsaying I can make this work off
of management fees and I'm goingto take over the world.
You know, at least NorthernUtah, it was not long into it
where I was just like we weren'tAndra and I, my wife and I we
weren't making any money.
We were paying everybody but weweren't getting paid at all.
(00:20):
And so I came to thisrealization after I met you and
Sean and some others, that Ijust was so impressed with what
you guys were teaching me at thetime that I was like, yeah,
this is the only way to make itwork.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the Property Management Success
Podcast, where we interviewleaders in the industry to
uncover the secrets toprofitability, efficiency and
achieving true freedom.
Whether it's your time, moneyor lifestyle, I'm your host,
tony Klein, and I'm here to helpyou build a wildly successful
property management business.
Let's get to it.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Property Management
(00:59):
Success Podcast.
Today, I am really excited tohave my good friend Cody Reeder
on with Reeder Asset Managementout of Utah.
Cody, welcome.
Thank you, tony.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on for a few reasons.
Number one I remember the firsttime you and I met was at a
NARPUM conference and you weresitting at a little little like
twotop table out on a patio, Ithink it was.
Were we in Florida?
I think, yeah, we were inFlorida, yeah, and I walked by
and I saw you had two thingsthat caught my attention.
(01:33):
You had on a Garmin watch andyou had on, I think, a pair of
Hoka's.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
They were Altras, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Altras.
Okay yeah, good running shoes.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And.
I'm like there's not too manypeople.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, not too many people in this property
management conference area thatwould have the combination of
those a good pair of runningshoes, good trail shoes and a
good running watch.
And so I struck up aconversation with you, and
within probably a half hour Istruck up a conversation with
you, and within probably a halfhour you had convinced me to run
(02:06):
my first 100-mile race, theBear 100, out of Logan, utah,
there.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Great memories, yeah, great memories.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, good times, and so maybe we'll come back to
running, but I really want tofocus on giving our audience the
opportunity to get to know youas a property management
entrepreneur and a real estateinvestor.
So if you could just take usback, just give a brief intro to
your how you got into propertymanagement and real estate
(02:34):
investing.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah Well, thank you again for having me.
This will be fun.
So I was actually doing.
My former life was in ad sales.
So if you're older thanprobably 30, you probably
remember yellow page ads.
Like you know, no one nowadayseven knows what a yellow page is
, but I was selling yellow pageads.
So I got a lot of experience insales and that that type of
(02:57):
thing.
And then in the late ninetiesthis new thing called the
worldwide web was going to takeover the world and put print
media out of business.
So anyone that was in printmedia kind of went frantically
running for an alternativecareer.
And I was much the same.
I knew that probably going tobe ending within just a few
(03:17):
short years.
And one night I was watching aninfomercial and I saw a guy
talking about a no money downsystem.
His Name was Carlton sheets Idoubt he's even still around, to
be honest, but a no money downsystem in real estate.
And I never bought the course,but it kind of like got me
thinking about things and at thetime I was just like you know,
(03:38):
anybody could be a propertymanager.
I mean, how hard could it be?
You buy a property and collectrents, all you do is collect
rent, right, yeah, and then justkind of smile and laugh all the
way to the bank.
So my wife and I have alwayslived pretty conservative, so we
did have a chunk of money setset aside for savings and in
savings.
And so we found a duplex rightnext to Utah state university
(03:59):
and bought it and I was hookedright from the start as an
investor not not so much as aproperty manager yet, but as an
investor.
I just loved it and this wasback right after 2000.
And if you had a belly button,they'd give you a loan back.
In those days I mean, they weredoing a hundred percent loans
and like just crazy stuff, whichis a lot of the reason we ended
up where we did in 08.
(04:21):
Yeah, we in that first year webought four duplexes right next
to Utah State and we justleveraged one to get the other.
So we were very highlyleveraged early on.
Taking the equity out of oneand just parlaying that into the
next and the next really hashelped me build my portfolio to
(04:42):
where it's at now.
I ended up selling all four ofthose and rolling that into.
It was like a 20 plex, butthere was a bunch of storage
units and some homes that wentalong with it.
So I grew it from there to thatand then I just kept going and
adding now bigger apartmentcomplexes, and so now this many,
(05:04):
many years later, we're at justover 200 units that my wife and
I just own personally, and twoof those are 45 plexes, so
pretty good size units.
A couple of commercialbuildings.
We have a block in Logan thatwe own pretty much from Main
Street to First East and then500 North to 600 North pretty
(05:25):
much that whole block.
So there's some developmentopportunities there for us.
But my heart always was kind oflike in the investor world.
But around 2010, just after 8,the building one of the
commercial buildings I own isabout 25,000 square feet, has
four total offices in it, and Igot notice about six months
(05:46):
after I bought that buildingfrom both those tenants that
they were moving and I waspretty scared.
I'll be honest.
I had already left that the adworld and had pretty much was
100% into the real estate and Iwas pretty scared because it was
like that was.
That meant I was pretty muchbreaking even and if I had one
more person leave I was going tobe sunk.
So I for years have had friendssee my growth and see my
(06:11):
property management and ask meto manage for them, and I just
didn't have any interest in itand I kind of decided to
entertain that now, more out ofnecessity, more out of fear that
I just didn't have a backupincome if my investments went
south.
About how long ago was that?
As far as the propertymanagement?
Or okay, yeah, so that was justafter that would have been 2012
(06:34):
.
So 2010 was where I got noticedthat these two companies were
leaving, and so I startedentertaining the notion of like
maybe I will again, more out ofnecessity, start managing for
some of these folks that hadreached out.
I saw it as another source ofincome in case the investments
went south.
And so, yeah, it was rightaround that time period and I
(06:58):
started doing third-partymanagement, and so that's kind
of like how I kind of morphedfrom my own investments to
offering third-party management,and so we were pretty much up
and going.
We coupled with the units Ialready had and the friends I
brought on.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Like we started with a fair amount of properties
right from the start, and whenyou got into property management
, when you transitioned frombeing a real estate investor
which I wouldn't saytransitioned, I guess, when you
added being a property managerwhich I wouldn't say
transitioned, I guess, when youadded being a property manager
because you're still doing thereal estate investing Were you
already licensed as a licensedagent, or did you have to go get
(07:33):
your license in order to startdoing third-party?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So I actually had gone and got my sales agent
license before then because Ialso felt at the time I was
buying bigger and bigger andmore and more properties and a
large part of that was going outto real estate agents that,
quite honestly, great folks,still good friends to this day
but they just didn't understandthe differences between buying
(07:59):
and selling for an owneroccupied versus an investor and
that investor mindset and Iwould task them with certain
things like I'm looking for thistype of property that's getting
.
I mean, some of them didn't evenknow what NOI stood for and so
I was just like I'm going to bemuch better off doing my own
research and ultimately I justwent and got my sales license at
that time.
But in the state of Utahcurrently there's some changes
(08:21):
in the air, but currently youhave to operate under a
brokerage.
So even if you have your salesagent license, you still have to
tie yourself to a brokerage.
So in one of my commercialbuildings that I own I have a
real estate company.
I tied myself to her brokerageuntil I was able to get the
points necessary to get mybroker's license.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
And so this is 2012-ish, when you transition
into third-party propertymanagement.
So we are about what?
13 years Fast forward.
Where are you guys now as faras size of your team, size of
your portfolio?
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So we're, as we have ours, 200, then we have probably
another 700 that we dothird-party management.
Our team is so about 2018,let's say 17,.
Before then we had in-housemaintenance.
In 2017, we decided to splitoff and do a separate
(09:19):
maintenance company, and so wehad a separate management and
maintenance company, and so ourmaintenance company is, and so
we had a separate management andmaintenance company, and so our
maintenance company is calledService Depot and our management
company is Reeder AssetManagement.
So with Reeder, we're probablyI want to say, 13 employees and
our maintenance is probably 15,something like that.
But our maintenance also, nowthat it's an independent company
(09:42):
, we're getting more and morework just from consumers and
other management companies to do.
We have licensed a masterplumber, HVAC, we have our own
carpet cleaning trucks, all ofthat, so we do some quite a bit
of outside work as well, so thatone's kind of grown outside of
Reader.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I think it's interesting I want to touch on.
It's so fascinating to me howpeople structure their property
management companies and thenhow they they staff it and what
positions or what roles andresponsibilities they have, plus
how many players or people theyhave on the team.
And you guys are.
It sounds like you're runningreally lean and efficient.
(10:20):
You've got essentially your 200plus 700.
So we got 900 properties we'remanaging with a team of 13
people.
Are most of them local or is ita split between local and
remote?
What's kind?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
of the makeup there.
We have five remote.
So we have two in thePhilippines, one in Mexico sorry
, yeah One in Mexico, one inPanama and one from Jamaica.
So we've got five remote andthe rest are local and, quite
honestly, half of those arefamily.
So my wife, she's kind of overall of our accounting.
(10:56):
My daughter, she's our regionalmanager.
We have three different areasso we service almost 130 miles
and so we have a Logan officeand then we have an Ogden If
you're familiar with NorthernUtah, we have an Ogden office
and then we have a Salt Lakeoffice.
My stepson he's, he does all ofour maintenance coordination
(11:18):
and kind of his wife does.
We have a kind of utilitybilling department, so to speak.
She does all of that.
One of my other daughters worksfor Service Depot.
So it's a total family affair.
In fact, every one of my kidsand almost all their spouses
work for me.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Now I wasn't going to go down this detour yet, but I
want to, since we're here, talkabout the culture, and I was
going to lean before.
You told me about the familycomponent I was going to lean
into.
You have people all over theglobe that are serving clients
here in the US and I'm curioushow do you create a culture or
(11:57):
how do you unify the level ofservice that you provide?
Because it just seems like whenwe bring remote people into
remote team members into ourteam, it's hard to get them up
to speed on what we actually dohere.
You know, some of them don'thave furnaces.
Like they don't you need toreplace a furnace.
They don't know how much thatshould cost, right?
(12:18):
So if they're on the maininside.
So I'm just curious did you,did you intentionally go out to
build a remote team, or was itwe lost somebody and we just it
was easier just to add one ortwo remote people to take their
place?
I'm just curious how you managethat with having the remotes.
(12:38):
And then I want to ask how youmix that with the family dynamic
as well.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah Well, and a lot of this is kind of credit to you
.
After I got to know you and youwere so more than you'll ever
know, instrumental in helping meunderstand.
Up to that point we only triedto survive off of management
fees.
And it was you that kind ofbrought all these other
(13:05):
opportunities to the table.
And you know we can talk aboutthat at some point if you'd like
to.
But part of that was the remoteteam members and so we went out
purposeful.
I mean it was very purposeful.
We're looking for somebody whohad maintenance experience, who
had worked with a managementcompany before and kind of knew
all that already.
So we were pretty purposefulfor each of those roles.
(13:26):
And then we just got fortunatethat a couple of people we hired
knew someone.
And I mean we did hire a newone, I think a year ago, but our
remote team members have beenwith us for five years now.
So we've been pretty fortunate.
There has been a learning curve.
I mean it's hard to describeHVAC to someone in Jamaica, or
heat period to some.
(13:47):
You know the need of heating,but she came with her own
experience and just she was ableto hit the ground running.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
So and then, tying into that component, add that
family layer which I've alwayssaid kind of tongue in cheek.
Now my son-in-law works for menow so I've broken this rule,
although he doesn't know it.
But I say, you know, never hiresomebody you can't fire,
because it creates this weirddynamic of well, now they're
(14:14):
here and now they're stuck.
And so it's been really clear.
You know, he on my team knowsthere's a performance plan and
the system runs.
The company we determine here'swhat our KPIs are, here's the
system determines whether or notwe're being successful.
How do you manage on your end,that dynamic of you got a lot of
family members and they all gotto get along.
(14:37):
You know, off the clock butalso on the clock, how do you
manage that?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
I've just been fortunate, I guess.
I mean it was a concern becausemy wife's family, her dad
rather had a business and a lotof the siblings worked for her
dad and they're kind offractured, quite honestly, and
it's kind of sad, and so it hasconcerned me a lot.
I think I don't even know.
I can only say that one thing Ido think is they all understand
(15:05):
that they can come to me withideas but at the end of the day,
you know it's my call and theymay not totally agree with it,
but the understanding is theyjust get behind it.
Most of them have been with mefor three plus years and so I
don't.
I've never been in thatposition where I've had to sit
one down and say you know I'vegot a, you know we've we've got
some performance issues here.
(15:25):
I don't know how to answer that, other than I've just been very
fortunate that we just I thinkit might be built in our DNA, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, all right.
Well, let's uh, let's shiftgears a little bit.
So you, you started out at 200.
You said, hey, look, out ofnecessity we're going to have to
add some doors.
And again, when you firststarted adding those doors, you
were basically just it'smanagement fees I'm going to
make, I'm going to squeeze aliving out of this by.
(15:52):
I'm going to charge X dollarsor X percent in management fees,
and hopefully I can stackenough nickels to make a dollar.
And you, you rolled that out.
You are at a significant sizenow.
To add an additional 700 unitson top of what you own
personally, that's significantgrowth.
You, statistically, are largerthan most of the property
(16:15):
management companies in thecountry just statistically.
And I know there's somemammoths out there that are
bigger than you, but most aresmall and most are wanting to
grow.
Whether they want to get toyour size or not, most are
trying to figure out how to add.
How did you go from I gotreally maybe a handful of people
that trusted me with theirproperties in the beginning to a
(16:37):
portfolio of 700.
What were you doing?
What did that growth look like?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, I think a lot of it was, because and when you
say I was trying to scrapnickels together and make it
work just off of management fees, that was certainly a lot of it
was, because my and when yousay I was trying to scrap, scrap
nickels together and make amake it work just off of
management fees, that wascertainly a part of it.
But really I intended I wantedto, I wanted to go in and prove
that I could do it just off ofmanagement fees.
So I went in with I mean thismay sound bad, but I went in
(17:03):
with the intention of saying Ican make this work off of
management fees and I'm going totake over the world.
You know, at least NorthernUtah and you know it was not
long into it where I was justlike we weren't Andra and I, my
wife and I, we weren't makingany money.
We were paying everybody but weweren't getting paid at all.
And so, either, you know, Icame to this realization after I
(17:26):
met you and Sean and someothers that I just was so
impressed with what you guyswere teaching me at the time
that I was like, yeah, this isthe only way to make it work.
And I kind of chuckle when Iwhen I hear of new management
companies or a real estate agentthat's getting into it, that
they're doing the same thingthat I did and you know I don't
blame them because I did itmyself but I just kind of have
(17:47):
to laugh to myself and it's likeone day you're going to figure
out that there's more to it thanjust that.
But yeah, I grew pretty organic.
I never really put in any moneyinto advertising what I do.
I did connect with a lot of realestate agents Not too long
after I got my broker license,became a CE.
(18:07):
I went through everything tobecome a CE instructor for the
Utah Real Estate Division and soI did what I call a roadshow
where I'd take my CE on the roadand just offer free CE.
Most real estate companies, atleast here, have a weekly sales
meeting and so sometimes they'reshort on material and so I
would just offer to step in foran hour and if everyone wanted
(18:30):
to show up and get an hour offree CE.
Most of them were about realestate investing.
I have a class that teachessales agents how to help
investors like myself know thelingo, the investor mindset, the
different you've got flippers,wholesalers buy and holds.
You got all kinds of differentmindsets.
You got young.
(18:50):
You've got people that areretired, that have a lot of
money to put down, you got thosethat are just trying to, you
know, bootstrap somethingtogether, so just to teach real
estate agents about the investormindset, and that was just very
, very successful.
I mean, I was out every single,sometimes every single day to
these real estate companies andjust giving them free CE and
their jaws would just drop tothe ground when they looked at
(19:13):
what it means to be an investorthrough the lens of an actual
investor.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So I'd say a lot of it was that market to be
different.
You know I talk all the timeabout as a property management
company or a property managementcompany owner.
We need to figure out how tobreak through the noise so that
the consumer that can't tell usapart, they don't know what
makes us different.
So we're all the same untilwe're not.
(19:43):
We're all the same until wegive them a reason to think that
we're different.
And it's the same thing withthe real estate agents when
they're looking for theirreferral or refer-ee-er whoever
they're going to refer to whenthey have clients that want to
buy investment properties.
And in making those connections, I see so many people spending
(20:04):
thousands of dollars a month onSEO and having people ghostwrite
blogs for them, and all that'sdoing is competing online in a
way that doesn't really set youapart.
You know one of the things thatsomebody told me once and I've
probably said that this too muchon this podcast over the
different episodes but peopledon't teach because they're
(20:28):
experts.
They're perceived as expertsbecause they teach.
And you are you.
I mean, obviously you need toknow what you're talking about
when you, when you're going toteach, and I think it's one of
the best ways to learn a subjectis to teach it.
But when you're out in front ofeven if it's a group of five or
six people you know, hopefully,when you go and teach these CE
(20:49):
classes there's a room full of10 or 20, but even if it's five
or six, you're standing up inthe front of the room presenting
information as if you are anexpert or the authority.
All of the sudden, there's justthis shift in the relationship
where you're not begging forreferrals, you're not begging
(21:09):
for the opportunity to talk tothem, you're on an even playing
field with them, and I just lovethat approach.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, it sails through education and it's been
phenomenal.
And it was a large part of thereason after that became pretty
successful.
It was a large part of thereason that I got involved with
the Real Estate HousingAssociation Board and I kind of
went in through their educationdepartment and so I was tasked
with teaching some of the goodlandlord programs.
Now you're limited on what youcan say when you're actually in
(21:39):
a class as far as like hey, I'mCody with Reader Asset
Management.
Come and use me Like you can'tself-promote, but it doesn't
take much to find out who's upthere teaching the class.
And again, I just let theeducation speak for itself.
So I don't do anyself-promotion in these things,
but I can tell you that I meanI've had so many brokers come
and say you were at my classlast year, we've got this
(22:03):
investor, they've got 20 units.
We'd love to connect you.
It's been really successful andit's what I love.
I mean I'm not a great naturalteacher, but if I have the time
to study the material and it'ssomething I know, like I
couldn't get up and just dosomething on the fly.
But if it's something I'mreally passionate about, like
(22:23):
the investor side, like fairhousing.
I mean I do several fairhousing classes because I've
been embroiled in some fairhousing lawsuits.
It's like it's, it's, it's.
It's something I love to teach.
Then it people sense that theysense that you're, you're that,
you're that you're.
You know that.
What's the word I'm looking for, that you are.
I want to say original, butthat's not the word.
Authentic, vulnerable,authentic.
(22:46):
Thank you that you're authentic, you know.
You're just you're out there toteach rather than sell.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah.
Are there any other marketingefforts that you've seen be
successful in?
I guess let me put a little bitof additional information on
that.
So in the beginning you werethe one that was bringing in all
of the properties.
Is it still you doing thebusiness development, or do you
have somebody else that now doesthat for you?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
with the brokers, the real estate agents we do a lot
of.
I guess when I say we haven'tdone any marketing, that's not
entirely true because I dosponsor, like golf holes at
tournaments for the realtors andhousing association events and
those types of things, and Ilove being out there, I love
doing that stuff.
But I have hired three BDMs.
Two were absolute failures.
One was very successful and hewas kind of starting his real
estate career and he's stillwith us but he's kind of moved
(23:50):
from the sales of real estate toalso have a real estate company
that does sales, which I'venever promoted much and he
really wanted to take this.
He's like I think we can growthe sales side of your business
as well and I'm like I don'thave any time, but if it's
something that you're you knowyou want to try, then I'm like I
don't have any time, but ifit's something that you're you
know you want to try, then sohe's working on getting his
broker license to be able to runmy sales, which is connect real
(24:12):
estate is the name of my salescompany.
But so I'm actually back todoing a lot of the BDM because
he's focused on that.
I don't want to do this forever.
So I'll probably be lookinghere in the next, probably this
year, for someone to kind ofcome in and replace me.
He actually did really good, soI've had I'm one out of two,
one out of three that it's beensuccessful.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
So BDMs are they're.
They're hard to come by to agood one, right?
Because sales is you're, you'rein the sales role, you're so
disconnected from the rest ofthe organization because, your
job is to bring them in, andthen it's up to ops to not screw
it up, and then ops is lookingat the salesperson saying, well,
(24:50):
why'd you bring in that door?
That doesn't match the rest ofour portfolio, right?
So there's this rub between thetwo, okay.
So back to the question, though, that I originally asked before
I added that extra layer on it.
As far as the marketing efforts, I think it's great to be out
in the marketplace and againposition yourself as the
(25:11):
authority or the expert in themarketplace.
Are you doing anything besidesthat, which I know?
That's a lot, that's a lot morethan most people do.
Most people just sit behindtheir desk and hope the phone
rings and then they wonder whythey're not growing.
But are you doing any digitalmedia, social media, direct mail
, any SEO work?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
So I did bring on a guy recently to help us.
I guess it definitely wouldaffect SEO.
But because we're in so manycommunities if someone Googles
property management, riverdale,some of these bedroom
communities of the larger areasI wanted to have a presence in
each of those areas.
And I know nothing about SEO,digital social.
(25:55):
I mean, I have them, but Ithink the last time I posted in
some of these is probably six orseven years ago.
So I'm just not.
I would love to be that, butI'm just not, and so I hired a
guy to come in and kind of helpme with some of this stuff.
So I guess the jury's still outon that.
I don't know if it's helping ornot.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
All right, I want to lean into now you, cody Reeder,
as the investor.
I find a lot of the people thatI work with, either with my
coaching or just people that Imeet at conferences, and I find
out that they're big investors.
A lot of people will come up tome that are investors that are
trying to get into thatthird-party management.
(26:32):
They're trying to make thatleap that you made and their
investor brain gets in the wayof them being successful with
their property manager brain,because they look at what we
have to charge in order to dothe work that we do and as an
investor, they say, well, Icould do that for cheaper than
that.
And they could.
If they got on a plane and flewout here and, you know, booked
(26:55):
a hotel room and went andchanged those four light bulbs
and replaced the furnace andpainted that back room, they
probably could do it for cheaperif they weren't accounting for
all of their time and everything.
Did you have a hard timereconciling what you had to
charge once you started doingthird-party management, or was
that a fairly easy transitionfor you?
Speaker 1 (27:18):
For me it was fairly easy.
I've had other people bringthat concern as I met them at
different NARPM events and askedthat same question.
For me it was fairly easy.
I do feel like, even though I'mnot tech savvy, I do feel like
I bought into the wholeautomation and all of that, and
(27:41):
so I've just hired people thatknow much more about that than I
do, and so I just have alwaysunderstood that I bill myself
exactly like everybody else getsbilled.
So if I have you know, just theother day, actually, I got a
work order I see all the workorders like our company, before
we do anything, we reach out tothe owner and, whether it's a
$50 or $5,000 work order, likewe at least notify the owner
(28:03):
that this is happening.
Sometimes the owners willinterject and say you know, I'll
, I'll go take care of it.
I got one the other day andliterally the cold air return
vent had fallen off and thetenant did not own a screwdriver
, and so I'm faced with thislike I've either got to pay $75
to go have this done, cause Ithey charged me exactly what
(28:23):
they would charge any otherowner, or I got to go do it
myself and I was not even aroundto do it.
So I think by me going throughthose exact scenarios that our
owners go through, I think hasput me on that same level of
understanding and probablyempathy when those do come
through.
But also to your point, I alsorecognize the other side of it,
(28:45):
that the time is worth something.
There is a cost handyman prices,hvac, plumbing, all those, all
those costs are going up acrossthe board and it puts me in a
unique position when I have anowner that has concerns about
that, that and I do call upowners and I will say I
understand your concern, I feelit with you and here's what
we're facing, here's what ourindustry's facing, here's what
(29:07):
these other industries arefacing, and so I think it's
actually been a good thing andby doing it this way and I don't
think I ever had an issuemaking that crossover- Well,
while we're on the topic ofmaintenance, there's a lot of
management companies that theygrow from zero doors up to 250,
(29:27):
300 doors and they think I'msending out a lot of maintenance
, I'm sending out a lot of justwork orders to different vendors
and I'd like to figure out howto bring that in-house.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And I'd like to figure out how to bring that
in-house and it sounds like youguys, did you ever have in-house
maintenance and then peel thatoff, or was it always just
totally separate.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
We started with in-house maintenance and I think
it was actually at a NARPMconference.
One of the speakers had talkedabout separating it off and I
just thought it was a great idea.
And so, really, how ourshappened in 2017, we were, we
were, I will say, in-house forall for this discussion.
(30:10):
Let's just call it in-house.
We did actually separate it asa different company, but nobody
knew it.
We never marketed anything butit.
Basically, they were in oursame office.
We did everything.
They had everything.
But there was a company that weused a lot was called Service
Depot, and they did mostlyappliance repair, and so we were
always calling them for all ofour appliance repair stuff, and
I've never liked maintenance.
(30:31):
It's not something I'm good atmy wife is much better at it
than I am and so I've alwayswanted to go out and just be
able to get somebody to do thework out and just be able to to
get somebody to do the work.
And in 2017, I, the owner ofservice Depot and myself we got
together and we just startedtalking about maybe forming a
partnership with service Depotand, uh, it had been around for
(30:54):
probably 10 or plus years beforeme and, uh, because he was, he
already had that experience withmaintenance.
Yeah, it was, it was appliance,but they kind of were like they
understood, he understood that,he understood service, that,
that, that industry, and so we,I bought into it.
I actually became a majorityowner of service Depot and the
(31:15):
idea was he would run it.
So I was just kind of like themoney behind it, he would run it
and he.
So he went from three guys up tolike 13 overnight, basically
because we were just sending himso much work he couldn't sleep,
he couldn't eat, he was likestressed out all the time, and
so six months later he came andasked if I would buy him out
completely.
He just wanted out.
So I went from having this likepseudo or quasi inside
(31:39):
maintenance company tooutsourcing it to this company
that I was somewhat involvedwith, to taking the entire
company back.
So now I own an entiremaintenance company and so
that's kind of how we ended upwith Service Depot.
Quite honestly, I'm not amaintenance guy.
I don't understand it.
We've done well because my wifeshe's really good at that, but
(32:02):
that's been my personal struggle.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
So if you were to just kind of off the top of the
head, evaluate the profitabilityor the long-term future of the
management company versus themaintenance company, which one
is generating more profit perdoor?
Speaker 1 (32:25):
per unit.
The maintenance companydefinitely does better than the
management, which is surprisingfor me to even hear myself say
but a lot of that comes becausewe own the management company.
I mean, if that went away, 80%of our work goes away and we're
getting more and more directfrom the consumer.
But yeah, I think it ceases toexist without the management
company.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
When we first started talking about your maintenance
company, you mentioned that youare doing direct-to-consumer,
but you're also doing some workfor some other property
management companies and I findthat fascinating because it's
almost like they know you're amanagement.
Well, maybe they don't knowbecause you've rebranded it or
you've branded separately.
It's not reader management andreader maintenance, it's service
(33:09):
depot.
So has there been any frictionor pushback by offering your
services to other managementcompanies?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
So we don't necessarily offer the service to
other management companies.
Really, how that happened isthey were using also using
Service Depot long before we gotinvolved and so a lot of that
is, and Service Depot just hassuch a great reputation long
before I bought it and so theyjust continued.
Most probably don't even know.
I can think of two specificinstances that once they learned
(33:38):
that I owned it, they no longeruse us.
So you know, but that was neverthe intention, it's just it's.
It's happened that way and thatthat's fine, you know.
I mean, we're happy to help andif they, I get the perception
of a conflict of interest and Iunderstand that.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
All right, but I want I want to change our topic here
, but before I cause, I'm goingto go off off property
management for a minute, allright, but before I do, is there
anything that you want to talkabout?
You think I should have asked,or that is off the top of your
head, either for the maintenancepiece or the third-party
management piece.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Well, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you or any of
your listeners or viewers this,but I kind of glossed over a
lot, as though I got from hereto here without much.
There's been a lot of stress, alot of stressful nights.
You and I have talked.
You probably don't evenremember, because you were on
the back end of the Moab 240 andI'm sure your head was, but I
(34:32):
remember spending probably 16hours with you talking about
some struggles that I was havingand you were giving me some
awesome advice.
You probably don't evenremember it's not come without a
cost.
So I would only say it's, it'sbeen, it's.
It's just not as easy as asmaking it and everything will
fall into place.
It's, it's been.
(34:52):
It's not come without a cost.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, well, that's, that's a great lead in, because
I did want to shift over andtalk a little bit about ultra
running.
I have a co-host on some of theepisodes, mark Brower, and he's
a distance runner as well, andso we talk a little bit.
We call it the PropertyManagement Aid Station, so I'm
(35:15):
going to bring that into thisepisode a little bit, but I do
remember as well as I can.
We were on the back half of theMoab 240.
I think you had picked me up atlike mile 203 and we're going
to take me into the finish andit's dark out, there's snow and
(35:36):
ice on the ground, we can seeour breath and we were talking
about lead, simple processes andautomations and how you know
there were some things in thebusiness that may have been over
automated and we were going totry to see if we could take away
some of those choices so, asbest I could.
Being 200 miles and multipledays in, I do remember that.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
That's impressive.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, but the reason I wanted to bring up ultra
running is I feel like by bypushing your limits and in
finding what's possible inrunning, I personally feel like
it's made me better in otherareas, and I just wondered if
there was any sort ofrelationship that you saw with
some of those difficult timesthat you talked about that you
(36:23):
just glossed over.
Is there any correlation withyour ability to suffer through
in business that made you a goodultra runner, or the fact that
you're able to suffer through inrunning and know that it never
always gets worse and you comeout the other side?
I'm fascinated because there'sonly a handful of us that I know
(36:44):
of in this business that arealso participating in in these
races that are as extreme as theones that you and I run.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Oh yeah, no question, I mean almost every day uh it,
it.
There's so many correlationsand I think everybody may
doesn't have to be ultra.
It can be anything hard.
I think when you push throughum it just it's like you know, I
, I uh one of our meetings thatwe uh our monthly meeting,
meetings that we do as a team.
I talk about a lobster's growthand how you know, for it to
(37:14):
grow it has to crack throughthat shell and it's very painful
.
And then it grows another shelland it has to crack through
that shell and that's kind ofthe growth of a lobster and
there's no doubt that it'shelped both ways, going both
ways.
In fact, I have a kind of afunny joke.
When I start one of my CEclasses, I'm introducing me and
what I like to do personally andI say I'm a middle of the pack
(37:36):
endurance runner, probably moreback of the pack nowadays, but a
middle of the pack endurancerunner and I, you know I'm not
real fast but I can suffer for avery long time, which is
probably why I'm in propertymanagement.
So it gets a lot of good laughs.
But it's true, I mean, and itgoes both ways, and I think
about some of the things youknow.
We had a we've had several fairhousing lawsuits that we've had
(37:57):
to that we've had to addressand go up against.
Some have gone fairly quick andeasy.
We got out of them prettyharmless or without much
backlash at the end, but one Imean we ended up winning that
one also, but it took 10 monthsand it was very painful and I
think if I didn't have a lot ofthat experience of just being
(38:18):
able to suffer through and knowthat you will hit zero but it
will get better, absolutely I'mconvinced that that helped for
sure.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
You don't have to lean into the fair housing
details, but I think there's alot of people that get into this
business that the first timethey have somebody, I was on a
panel.
I was on a stage down in Texasat an event and I asked the
audience to raise their hand ifthey remembered the first time
that they were threatened to besued by a tenant.
(38:48):
And of course you knoweverybody remembers that,
because it's a big deal, right.
And the first time you'reactually served with papers,
somebody rings your doorbell orcomes to the office or whatever,
and they serve you with papers.
It's a traumatic deal.
Nowadays, somebody threatens tosue.
It's like, okay.
Well, let me tell you how thisprocess goes.
Because you've brought up yourattorney, it's our policy that
(39:10):
we no longer have directcommunication.
Here is our attorney'sinformation.
Now, if you do want to finishout this conversation, you and I
I'm happy to do that, but ifyou're going to bring your
attorney into it, here's ourattorney's contact information.
Have a nice day and they tendto back off versus you going
into this.
You know this flustered panic.
And then I asked.
The next question was how manyof you remember the first time a
(39:32):
tenant died in one of yourunits and you know there wasn't
quite as much laughter, butthere was as much like, yeah, I
remember that that's a bigtraumatic deal.
And there's these little thingsthat happen to us that if it
doesn't wipe us out, it doeseventually make us stronger in
being able to handle thesethings.
And there's not any training inproperty management.
(39:54):
There's no training on how todo that.
And I think ultra running, orfacing some challenge, something
hard, or facing some challengesomething hard, like you said,
being able to overcome somethingthat is just a little bit
outside of your comfort zone itdoesn't have to even be beyond
your limits, but just more thanwhat you're used to I think just
(40:15):
makes you so much moreresilient and I wish there were
more ways for people to dodifficult things, because it
does help so much in thisbusiness, because there is no
training for how to overcomesome of these really nasty
things that we wind up facing.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, I recently finished a book called the
Comfort Crisis.
I don't know if you're with it.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I've listened to it three times.
I just finished it two weeksago for the third time.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
I love it.
Yeah, so much, so many goldennuggets in there.
I love that, but but that's,that's at the heart of what
you're talking about, and itreally is.
I, you know, even growing or asmy kids grew up, I would talk
about this envelope of comfort,and every time you push that
envelope you've just pushed intoa bigger envelope until you
finally get to a point where, asyou said earlier, your first
one is like so traumaticNowadays.
(41:06):
It's exactly what you said.
You know here's my attorney'snumber.
You brought the attorney intoit so you can contact them.
And you know, I remember thefirst eviction, I remember the
first death, I remember thefirst fair housing.
All of them, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Well, cody, I really appreciate you coming on and
sharing your history, yourwisdom, your insights with us.
I'm going to close out with aquestion that you don't know is
coming, okay, but I'm going toask you on air here so that we
can try to pressure you intosaying yes, but I am in for the
(41:42):
Coca-Donona 250.
Oh, yay All right, if you wantto come down and pace.
It's in May, may 5th throughthe 10th.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
If you want to come down and pace, you've got as
many miles as you want, allright, well of course, with this
one carve out, I am stilldealing with some Achilles
issues, some uh uh tendinopathyor tendonitis, I don't know.
They've never really said whichone Sounds like, maybe the same
, but I would love to.
Moab's always been thehighlight of my October, so
(42:13):
we'll just make a highlight ofmy spring now, all right?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Well, don't back off because we're going back to Moab
in October.
All right, well, I'm there too,We'll knock them both out.
All right buddy, I appreciateyou so much.
Thanks for hopping on.
I appreciate you, thank you.
Thanks for tuning in to theProperty Management Success
Podcast.
We'll be back with anothervalue-packed episode to help you
level up your propertymanagement game, if you've got
something valuable out oftoday's episode.
No-transcript.
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