- The episode delves into the intricate subject of boundaries, emphasizing their role in fostering mental well-being and emotional freedom. By exploring personal experiences, generational impacts, and practical strategies, we guide listeners to understand and implement healthy boundaries in their lives.
• Boundaries and their importance for mental health
• The impact of upbringing and trauma on boundary-setting
• Current youth mental health crisis and its connection to boundaries
• Role of communication in parenting for boundary enforcement
• Practical steps for defining and asserting personal boundaries
_______________________________
Shairi R. Turner MD, MPH, is an internist and pediatrician with expertise in trauma-informed practices. She serves as the Chief Health Officer at Crisis Text Line, leading the organization’s external policy, advocacy, and partnership initiatives related to mental health. Crisis Text Line is a national not-for-profit organization that provides free, 24/7 text-based mental health support and crisis intervention in English and Spanish. In this role, she is fervently committed to addressing the youth mental health epidemic.
Dr. Turner has been a featured mental health expert at numerous conferences, top-tier and regional news programs, media interviews, and podcasts. Most notably, NBC’s Meet the Press, TIME Scripps News, Good Day DC, CNN, iHeart Radio Podcast with Michelle Williams, Good Day Seattle, HuffPost, to name a few. She also was a co-Host of NIKE’s acclaimed No Off Season podcast.
Drive, Ambition, Doing, Leading, Creating... all good until we forget about our own self-care. This Village of All-Stars pays it forward with transparency about misses and celebration in winning. We cover many topics and keep it 100. We are Proven Not Perfect™️
https://www.provennotperfect.com
Follow me on Instagram at: shontrapowell_provennotperfect
Check out Proven Not Perfect ™️ YouTube Channel as well. Join the community for ideas and events at www.provennotperfect.com.
I'd love to hear what you think!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, proven Not Perfect.
I hope that you're well.
I hope that you're launchingthis new year with inspired
thoughts and feeling like youare exactly where you're
supposed to be.
Yeah, and sometimes that can bea rude awakening as you are
(00:20):
going through something a littletough.
Sometimes that can be pushingyourself to accept the joy that
you're feeling in your heart andin your life, despite the
craziness in the world around us.
It can be any of those things,all of those things, but just
know that you are exactly whereyou are supposed to be, all
(00:42):
right.
So that is what I wanted toshare with you.
So today, now that you are here, we're going to talk about
boundaries.
Boundaries is a big word Um,okay, it's a longer word, ish,
um, but that was not the point.
It's a big word in that, as youreally start to unpack it and
(01:04):
think about boundaries and thinkabout your command of
boundaries, your understandingof your own boundaries and how
you manage and navigate that foryour own personal wellbeing,
it's a huge topic.
It's a huge thing to thinkabout.
So that's why I call it a bigword.
So today I have Dr ShairiTurner.
(01:25):
She is a medical doctor, an MPH.
She's an internist and apediatrician with an expertise
in trauma-informed practices.
She currently serves as thechief health officer at Crisis
Text Line, which is a leadingorganization, external policy
advocacy and partnershipinitiatives related to mental
health.
Crisis Text Line is a nationalnonprofit organization that
(01:50):
provides free, 24-7, text-basedmental health support and crisis
intervention in both Englishand Spanish.
So I'm telling you, this is aresource y'all.
In this role, dr Shirey isfervently committed to
addressing the youth mentalhealth epidemic.
We talk about that, we unpackthat here.
(02:11):
So listen she her background.
Not only is she veryaccomplished academically, going
to some high tier universities,but also she's very
accomplished professionally,serving in both the public and
private sector.
Um, for four years she wasactually the chief medical
(02:32):
director for the Floridadepartment of juvenile justice.
Um, in that role, she wasresponsible for the oversight of
health, mental health andsubstance abuse services.
So the credentials just keepcoming.
They keep coming.
You can hear her read about her, see her featured in NBC, meet
(02:53):
the press.
She's been on Time Scripps News, good Day DC.
Cnn.
Iheartradio Podcast withMichelle Williams, good Day
Seattle, huffpost, whoo chow.
I'm telling you she brings allof the credentials to host us in
a safe place and in a greatconversation to explore our own
(03:15):
understanding and command ofboundaries in our life.
So, without further ado, hereis my podcast, proven Not
Perfect with Dr Shirey Turner.
The Doctor is in the House.
Here we go.
Proven Not Perfect.
The Doctor is in the House, andI'm not saying that lightly.
(03:36):
I'm here today with Dr ShireyTurner, who is very quickly
becoming one of the favoritepeople in my world, is very
quickly becoming one of thefavorite people in my world.
We had the privilege to get allthe titles together at the same
time in this illustrious,wonderful leadership opportunity
in the great state of Floridaat the moment.
But that doesn't even begin toscratch the surface around just
(04:00):
the depth of where ourconversations can go.
So in having those privatelywith her, I decided that it made
a whole lot of sense to tapinto her wisdom, her experience
and her thought and her thoughtprovoking way.
Right, that's one of the thingsthat's really excited me about
(04:21):
our friendship, your thoughtprovoking way.
So, without further ado, thedoctor is in is what we're
calling this segment.
Dr Shirey Turner, welcome toProven Not Perfect.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Thank you, Chantra.
I feel the same.
I feel that we have beenbrought here together
specifically for this moment.
We are the right people, theright time, the right place, the
right moment.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Girl, all of that Okay.
So I wrote this book calledProven, not Perfect, and in the
book I actually was led todefine the seven truths that
sort of resonate for me as acorporate executive, mommy, wife
, christian and so many otherthings.
Right, and for each of myepisodes I try to anchor on one
(05:09):
of the truths right, and reallythat inspires me to say I've got
to talk to this person.
And fortitude is one thatsprung just literally off the
page as I thought about severalof the conversations, the
private conversations that youand I are starting to have, my
definition of fortitude.
I'll go ahead and read and I'dlove to get your thoughts on
(05:30):
what you think Fortitude beingstill in a situation,
acknowledging that the situationis big and I am bigger, seeing
the hedge of protection allaround myself, feeling the wings
of refuge gently brushing myshoulder, seeing light up ahead
(05:56):
and staying strong as it drawsnear.
Wow.
So when I read that to you,what do you hear?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I hear courage, I hear strength, I hear, I hear
boundaries.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Oh, there's that word Boundaries.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I just hear you know like fortitude is about.
You know, in its simplest formcan be about courage in the face
of adversity.
But what I love about yourdefinition is that it's so much
richer, right, it gives visualsomething for us to think about
visually when we think aboutfortitude.
(06:36):
And I love that you've chosenthat for this episode because I
think it really will resonate,because now you know, if not any
other time is a time that isasking us to have courage in the
face of adversity.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh, girl, oh, so true , okay.
So there's so much we got toget into.
Let's start with you.
Yes, when you were a littlegirl.
Um, let's start with you, yes,when you were a little girl.
Who did you want to be when yougrew up?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Ooh.
So for me, as a child, I'm thethe daughter of um people who
were integral to black theater.
So my my dad an actor, director, theater, you know, broadway,
(07:29):
off Broadway, schools, colleges,just anywhere that he could
perfect his craft and continueto, to create his art Right.
And then my mother is a writer,a publisher.
She too taught in theater anddirected, so both of them were
(07:54):
deeply embedded in Black theater.
You know, back when, you know,even before Denzel, and my dad
taught Denzel.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Oh my God, he literally taught Denzel.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
He did, he did.
I put a pin on that girl Firstcrush.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
First crush.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I might have been two , but first crush.
Right, and Samuel L Jackson.
It was all of those folks thatwere up and coming in black
theater, but you know, those arethe names that we recognize,
but they were.
There were so many more, right,who were the next tier, that
(08:35):
really worked to create Blacktheater and make it a movement,
right?
So, black to your question, toyour point, I went in a
different direction.
I went towards science andmedicine and I don't think I,
you know, in retrospect, did Ihave a, you know, my
pediatrician was, you know, inmy space, right, because living
(08:56):
in Black theater, that's what Isaw during the week, at night,
in the weekend and on theweekends.
So when I decided like healingand helping was my superpower,
could be my superpower, I had tolook to who was in that space,
right?
So I didn't have parents whowere doctors, so my pediatrician
actually was, as I think aboutit, the first role model who
(09:19):
showed, showed me what healingand taking care of someone else
actually looked like.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Wow.
So, first of all, they do saythat the actor's creative mind
is very similar to the sciencemind, right?
Isn't that sort of somethingthat we've advanced to
understand?
So how did your parents shapeyour decision or not on the
(09:48):
direction that you would followfor your advanced training and
your education?
And did you start right in thefield, in the area that you
thought you would, or was yourjourney a little bit different
than you anticipated?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
or was your journey a little bit different than you
anticipated?
Yeah, great question.
So they were always hugesupporters, very proud parents.
Initially I had wanted tobecome a veterinarian.
I loved animals.
I worked in a veterinaryhospital from 13 to 17.
Actually, was bitten prettyseverely by a dog and that
(10:27):
caused me to kind of reassesswhat, reevaluate my life choice.
But they were always verysupportive, proud.
You know I would be the firstphysician in the family, as many
of us.
When we take on those firsts,right, the aspirations of the
(10:47):
ancestors are subliminallyplaced on your shoulders, right?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yes, ooh, talk about it.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
The stories of you know, your grandmother wanted to
be a surgeon.
Your grandfather wanted to be adoctor.
Your aunt made it as far asbecoming a nurse, right, a
doctor.
Your aunt made it as far asbecoming a nurse, right.
So there's all this that getslevied on your child, where you
know the interest was there,obviously, but it's, I think,
(11:16):
for many of us, those who areour generation, right, those
external drivers becomeinternalized and take on a life
of their own Right.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So I have to.
I have to ask you to unpackthat a little bit, because I
think that's very interesting.
Because I do think that,generationally speaking, while
many of us were drawn to an areaand a scope of interest and
certainly supported as long asthe formula meant going to
(11:50):
college, getting a degree andchoosing a profession, the more
I talked to my peer group,especially my sisters of color,
(12:11):
there was an extra weight andpressure that we walked into
spaces with because, whether itwas a direct message or whether
it was a subliminal message, itwas understood that it was a
privilege to be a part of asmall percent that can say that
they were able to do thesethings and for that reason we've
represented everybody.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Did you ever hear messages like that, which is not
a word that I use frequently,but immovability, right, like
there was an immovability aboutour destiny, right, because our
parents oftentimes I mean someof us, you know have parents who
(12:55):
were physicians and you know,in those professions.
But many of us did not havethat opportunity, even though
parents were well equipped.
I mean, my grandmother was sotalented in the artistic area,
wrote poems, played the piano,wrote books, right, was just
prolific.
(13:16):
But her father told hereducation is important, but we
only have a certain amount ofresources and we are going to
expend those resources on thesons and not the daughters.
So my grandmother raised herfive children and went back to
college in her sixth Right, soeducation being paramount, so
(13:39):
self-taught.
And then went back to collegeto get her bachelor's and then
went back to college to get herbachelor's.
And, similarly, my mom had goneto college, got her master's,
raised her family and then wentand got her PhD in her seventies
Right, so it's right, educationwas the pathway to whatever was
(14:01):
next for our family, right, soit became-.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Do we feel the same way now with our kids, with your
kids?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
So I think we, I feel that the role that education
played in my life was a big forkin the road, determinant.
So I went to Stanford.
I had, I loved it.
So Yale and Stanford were thetwo choices, the two places.
I applied in the two choicesand, um, I loved Stanford.
(14:32):
So, to go from the Bronx toCalifornia, the sun, the, the
buildings, all of those things,and the, the really robust black
community that existed andstill exists at Stanford
University.
But for me I do feel likeeducation, college, that
(14:56):
university choice, was a hugepiece of the puzzle, right.
So my parents scraped togetherand I had scholarships so that I
could go to a private school inNew York City so that I could
have that opportunity, all theopportunity, right, that they
could think would come.
They were going to put it intoeducation so, where we didn't
take big, elaborate vacationsbecause we couldn't afford to.
(15:17):
They were artists, right, buteducation.
So I went to Stanford, mybrother went to Stanford, that
was where that was the NorthStar, still Right.
So now our generation, wherewe've been able to use education
and go further and have and befortunate enough to have those
(15:39):
resources for our children, forour children.
My premise, my husband's premisewas always find the school that
is right for you Don't letanything that and find the
profession that is right for you.
Not let external mandates,spoken or unspoken from us or
others, dictate where you go tofind that next space, because
(16:04):
it's most important that you arehappy at your university.
Right, we know that youngpeople today, for a myriad of
reasons, are in a mental healthcrisis.
Right, we have a mental healthepidemic.
Suicide amongst young people ofcolor is raging right.
So what we said to our childrenwas find the school that will
(16:26):
make you a better person.
So when you come out at thevery worst, you are neutral to
where you were when you enteredhopefully not version of
yourself.
That that school has, as myhusband likes to say, goes
through you right, like you'vetaken it all in, like you're not
(16:51):
just powering through theschool, but it has gone through
you.
And when you make the rightchoice, the school can actually
do that and you on the otherside is going to be a very
different you than the one thatstarted out.
So one of the things we saidwas you must leave, you know the
city that you grew up in,because growth happens outside
of that space and then that youchoose the school that's going
(17:14):
to go through you and is goingto make you, help you evolve in
your journey, and not choose aschool because of external
reasons.
Right that at the end of thattime there you are less than you
were when you entered, becauseit was not the right fit for you
.
And I think that's still hardfor our peers.
(17:36):
Right, where we're coming out ofhigh tier universities, many
times that we look to you knowwhat is the next our child has
to do, that next best thing?
Well, sometimes that next bestthing these are Gen Z.
Right, we know what that nextbest thing is and if that comes
(17:58):
into friction with the parent,the parent overrides.
Right?
We as parents have that power,that privilege.
We control the purse strings.
Right, we're funding this andwhen we say we're funding your
university, you must go here,that does not equate to finding
the best match for that child.
(18:19):
Or you might have been at thislarge Ivy League school or large
state school.
Your child is wired differently.
Their experiences have beendifferent.
You as their parent aredifferent than your parents.
So they may be looking for thatliberal art experience.
They may be looking for thatHBCU experience.
(18:39):
I can't even tell you how manyof my Stanford classmates have
children at Howard right.
And other HBCUs right, Becausewe see, like we see what today
is and what today means and whatschool then mandates for our
children and we give them thatchoice.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Man, there's so much in there that you said I mean I
think I'll.
I'll just pick a couple ofthings and and would love to get
your thoughts.
First, I definitely want totalk about the increase of
mental illness and, um, thechoice to just give up life, um,
you know, just in general, umall kids, uh, and for sure, um
(19:23):
African-American babies in theUnited States.
And then also want to talk alittle bit more about the times
and being clear that some of thechoices that we make are
largely informed by theexperiences that we have had and
(19:48):
we are having right, and that'strue for us, it's true for our
children, and making space forthat can be freeing.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So you pick which direction we go first, because
they are both like on.
My mind existed in me fromearly on when I started in med
school was around mental healthand ultimately found my way to a
space of advocating for mentalhealth and working towards
supporting the mental health ofyoung people, dealing with this
(20:40):
suicide epidemic that'shappening.
So I want to definitely touchon that because we are losing
children of color at rates.
I mean when we can say suiciderate for children who are five
to 11, Black children who arefive to 11 have a suicide rate
(21:02):
that's twice that of their white.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I'm sorry, how does suicide even happen?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, I think I heard you say age five.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Age five.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yes, suicide is now the number two leading cause of
death for two age groups thathave now collapsed, because it's
the second cause of death 10 to24.
Suicide is the second leadingcause of death.
As you might imagine, in youngpeople is accidents and injuries
(21:35):
right.
That's sort of been the thingfor a while, but now that like
suicide has emerged and that afive-year-old can conceptualize
the end of life and taking one'sown life, doesn't even really
seem feasible.
No, right, like I can't saythat at the age of five or six
(21:58):
or seven I understood whatsuicide was, right.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
But much less death Right.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
At age five.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
You're so curious about this unfolding of a life
that the.
You know the trauma comes when,when and if you are forced to
deal with loss at that early age.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yes, but I think we also now have to to move out of
our sort of space of privilegeand understand that young people
are young young people five,six, seven are in homes where
the generational trauma is realright, and my passion around
(22:44):
mental health really ties tochildhood trauma as well, where
we know now that physical abuse,sexual abuse, emotional abuse,
neglect, parents who areincarcerated, parents with
mental illness, parents whoseparate or loss of through
death or divorce, all of thosethings impact the brain
(23:06):
development of young children,starting in utero, all the way
through.
You know brain development goesinto the early 20s.
All of those experiencesformulate and help shape,
positively or negatively, thebrain development of children.
So now we understand the impactof trauma and you know we're
(23:27):
looking at how does racialtrauma, how will the pandemic
trauma, financial trauma,immigration trauma, like all of
those things are now kind ofcommunity trauma All of those
things are building into ourunderstanding of the environment
that young people, young youngpeople are experiencing.
(23:50):
And then, with you know, theability to access so many things
online and through social media, to be able to find a way to
take one's life right throughsocial media is horrifying.
It's absolutely horrifyingbecause, you know, suicide is a
death of impulse.
(24:10):
Right, it's in that moment theworld seems like it's not.
You know life is not worthliving and if there's an
accessible way to end one's life, you know.
When you know that and havethat accessibility, in that
moment the impulse can beenacted.
But when we think about youknow that moment can pass in.
(24:31):
You know two to three minutes,but the gun gun is available, or
there's an awareness or there'sa plan that those two to three
minutes can be actually life ordeath.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Jesus, oh God, and to your point, the access that our
children have to information.
And, quite frankly, I thinkeven the best parents can't keep
up, shairi Right.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
We are not prepared.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Right, you just can't keep up, we are not prepared.
Not prepared, right, you justcan't keep up because you can
sit them in front of a computeror um a phone and a YouTube
channel or any kind of channeland it looks like it's harmless.
But you watch it with them fora minute and it starts to go
(25:35):
places that maybe start toinvite some of these choices
that you know you wouldn't thinkyour kid would would lock into.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Right Um gosh they are digital natives.
We are not.
We were not.
This is a.
This is a foreign languagewe're trying to learn at as an
adult, versus for them.
They are bilingual, oh they know, they're bilingual in the
digital world and I think theywill be far better prepared than
(26:06):
we were to guide their childrenthrough these spaces.
But you know, the evolution oftechnology is is indefinite,
feels like.
But so we do our best to keepup.
But you know, we're just we'rekeeping up right, as opposed to,
like sometimes not leading,they're leading us.
(26:28):
So what?
What we did as parents was toreally fall back on, like the
values right, like how do youkeep, instead of, you know,
putting up all the walls?
How do you teach them to knowwhat to look for, how to keep
themselves safe?
Because they are going to growup and they do have access.
So it's about having thoseconversations around, you know,
(26:53):
social media and mental healtharound.
How do you, you know, createthose boundaries with your
school classmates?
What's coming right?
It's like a constant dialogue,as opposed to, you know, just
blocking this, blocking that,blocking that, without a
conversation or rationale,because then it almost makes it
more enticing for them to trickus and find a way around these
(27:16):
blocks and continue to explorewithout any sort of parameters.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
So you know what?
I'll tell you this too, as youtalk and I think about being a
mom in this day and time, youknow, in particular to youngers.
Right, you and I we're on theback end of this game and our
kids have largely you and Iwe're on the back end of this
game and our kids have largelyquote unquote got through some
(27:43):
of those formative moments.
But, you know, and they'restill getting through,
admittedly so, but it's a littlebit different than some of the
moms that are coming up rightnow who have school age kids,
younger kids.
They're dealing with thedigital language that their kids
know better than they do.
They're dealing with thepressures of so much going on
(28:07):
just in life, their own careers,choices, some of which were
allowing them to have moreflexibility during COVID, and
now that's gone away.
All the things that they'redealing with.
Right, and I listened to thisand I'm like, okay, so now if
you're mommying, you aremommying and trying to stay
(28:27):
centered and balanced andhealthy mentally yourself, on
top of trying to fight all ofthe fires and demons and darts
that are coming at your littlesas well.
Right, are you seeing anincrease in impact on women, on
moms, and, if so, are theremetrics that speak to some of
(28:52):
those demographics?
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah.
So the Surgeon General one ofhis many, you know, our current,
soon to be previous SurgeonGeneral, us Surgeon General put
out really impactful reports andused his voice and his office
to alert us to things like theyouth mental health epidemic,
(29:17):
the loneliness and isolationthat people are experiencing,
the stress of being a parent inthis current situation, the
current environment howstressful it is for all the
reasons you mentioned.
In addition, just the parentalpeer pressure that can happen
due to, you know, our ability tosee what every other parent is
(29:40):
doing, right, all the vacations,all the parenting tips, like,
if you don't create thoseboundaries and those, you know,
you're inundated, right, you'reinundated with what every other
parent is doing.
You're inundated with whatevery other parent is doing.
And am I stepping up to theplate enough?
(30:01):
Forget about the fact thatpeople have different resources,
different financial, compareand then stress ourselves out if
we're not doing quote, unquote,doing enough.
And then that puts our childrenon that hamster wheel of all the
(30:24):
activities, all the activities.
You have to do this, you haveto have all these things, these
profiles, or you won't go tocollege, right?
And that starts, you know,depending on where you are in
this country.
You know some, some areas ofthe country are more pressurized
than others, right, but it'slike what kindergarten are they
going to?
Like?
The waiting line, you know thewaiting list for daycare is
(30:48):
going to determine what IvyLeague your child goes to.
Whoa Whoa, like that can't dothat.
Whoa whoa, like that can't dothat.
Like there's no safe space fora parent.
When you're imbibing all ofthat, the key to parenting is so
much about being present.
Yes, and everything around usSay that.
(31:22):
For the cheap seats.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Seriously, anyone listening to us that is.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
That's the key to parenting Stay present.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Because there's no rule book, but your child will.
If you stay present, you willsee, you will hear.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, you will hear things you will not be reaching
into your memory about.
You know my childhoodexperience or I should be doing
this or you should be doing thatand really meeting your child
where they are, so they feelseen and heard and acknowledged.
Right, they're not supposed tobe a smaller version of us,
right?
(31:56):
They're actually supposed tohelp us evolve if we really
think about it.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And the evolution, wow, Shirey, honestly, you drip
so much and that's actually sogood and I think so many of us
miss it, right I know for sure.
That's been one of the areas ofopportunity for me where I
think back to things that I mayhave done as a child and a
(32:22):
scenario may present itselfwhere my child could or could
not be in the same scenario andI parent from a place of.
I've been there, I've done thatand, honestly, if there's one
thing that a parent listening tous I think you know from your
experience skills saying thatand me just saying honestly,
(32:46):
I've learned it myself you gotto stop because you push your
child into a place of confusionand distrust as well of
themselves.
Because if you've not, ifthey've not done anything to
lose trust, just because ascenario is a scenario where you
(33:10):
didn't necessarily make a goodchoice, doesn't mean that's
going to be them.
They're raised by you in adifferent point in time, right?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, yeah, wow, proven not perfect, right, I
mean for me every kink on thehead girl you're learning right.
There's no, you know there'sparenting books.
You've got to apply them asyou're.
You know taking the time toread right While you're trying
to raise.
It's the whole.
You know building the planewhile read right while you're
(33:39):
trying to raise.
It's the whole.
You know, building the planewhile it's flying, the plane
while it's flying, and you justfeel caught up in that moment
and it's so very hard to staypresent.
But that that would be the keyto it all, because what you
don't want to say to your childis like you're not okay, like
not, I'm not okay with how youare because you're not like me,
(33:59):
or you're not worse than that,you're not like that child over
there, cause then you're tellingthem that you know, prefer to
be that child's mom than thanyour child.
Like there's all this messagingwhen you don't stay or you have
a framework about who yourchild should be, when in fact
they're just not that person.
They are not.
They were raised by you, theyare half you, they are half
(34:21):
somebody else who was raised byother you know whole other
family.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
That's right, Right.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
So we can't, if we can just step back and let that
go, especially in these momentswhen the world is swirling
around our children and we justsay I see you, I hear you, I'm
here for you, I want the bestfor you.
Like that would go such a longway.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
All right.
So now we got to go back tothis word that's come up a
couple of times boundaries.
Let's talk about boundaries.
So first of all, how do youdefine boundaries, and why is
the word boundaries on your mindright now in such a big way?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah.
So it came to me sort of thebeginning of this year.
Every year I try to first like,set some goals and plan and
figure out what the theme of theyear is, and I think what
happened towards the end of lastyear was just having
conversations, some specificconversations, where I exerted
(35:24):
my boundaries, I defined myboundaries, I exerted my
boundaries in a way that wascalm and then recognized how
freeing, how free I felt afterthat conversation, how free I
felt, how empowered and then howmentally my well-being was
(35:45):
enhanced and I was likeboundaries are, I think,
especially for us as women.
Sometimes we find it hard todefine our boundaries and really
, when I say boundaries, it'sthe physical space, it's the
psychological, emotional space,it's the mental space that we
need to take to put betweenourselves and others.
(36:08):
And I think what's interestingis when people, many times, when
people think about boundaries,they envision like building
brick walls.
Right, I'm going to build thisboundary, I'm going to you know
like I'm going to stand here,I'm going to defend it, I'm
going to fight.
It's a fight when I tell youwhat my boundary might be, when,
in fact, a boundary can be, youknow, a chain link, fence,
(36:31):
right when you can see throughit, you can hear through it, you
can touch the other person onthe other side, but there's some
clarity about what is my spaceemotionally, psychologically,
physically and what is yourspace.
Wow, it's not a battle, right?
It is in fact an opportunityfor me to clarify for myself
(36:53):
what my priorities and valuesare and to share them with you
and then, once we have thatunderstanding, to connect more
authentically and not less.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So I can think of that being a relevant thing to
consider in every lane of ourlife, whether it's our family
life, whether it's our familylife, whether it's our faith
life, our spiritual life,whether it's our work life,
right, community life, all of it, right?
Wow?
So have you put into practicesome specific things that would
(37:31):
be useful as we think aboutboundaries and what it means for
us?
Because just because you readthat in the word and that's how
the word resonated in your heart, doesn't mean that that's how I
read it and it resonated in myheart.
In fact, if it's a living word,it's gonna naturally be a
little bit different what I hearand what you hear, because
(37:52):
we're different people right.
So tell me how you get, how yousort of reconcile and keep that.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, so everybody's boundaries are different, right,
we were all raised differently.
We had different parents, wewere raised in different parts
of the country, maybe differentparts of the world where, like
when you think about physicalboundaries, some people are not
huggers, right, and some peopledon't want you close in their
space.
But I think the point theimportant things about
(38:19):
boundaries is first gettingclear about what's important to
you, right?
What are the things that makeyou feel safe and secure when
you interact with others?
Right, like A boundary is Idon't want to be around people
who are constantly negative,right, it doesn't feel good.
(38:40):
I don't want to take that inand start emulating that in
anyone.
That person is a relative rightwhich, if you have to say you
know, get clear with yourselfabout you.
Know how much time you'rewilling to spend, if any.
(39:03):
You know we just came out ofthe holiday season.
Oftentimes it's those timeswhen you're kind of naturally
going to interact with folks whomay not share the same values,
where you have to establish yourboundaries.
And I just think, knowingwhat's important to you, right?
Is it physical space?
Is it topics of conversation?
(39:24):
You know boundaries around now,the whole political
conversation and where we'regoing as a country, right.
How much do you want to engagein that with other people?
Right, being clear for yourself, for yourself.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, right, and then putting that in practice I just
think about it practicallyspeaking for me.
So if I'm clear up front onwhat my boundaries are and I
love that one I don't want tointentionally place myself to
hear negativity and be a part ofnegativity Right, and so, if
(40:00):
that's the case, if that's myclear thing, and I'm in a
situation where maybe it'sfamily, maybe it's work, maybe
it's something right, um, whatis my strategy?
To quickly acknowledge that I'mnow in a space that's no longer
serving me?
And then how do I navigate?
(40:22):
What are going to be mystrategies to navigate my way
out of it?
If it's a work situation, maybeit's.
You know, with all due respect,I don't share that viewpoint
and I really don't care todiscuss it.
Right, yeah, and it's.
And this, and the conversationends yeah, maybe you do the same
(40:42):
thing in your family, or you dothe same thing you know
otherwise, Right?
Or maybe it happens around youand you sort of hum, I don't
know.
But I think it starts withbeing clear.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yep, and and and how you define.
First how you defined and thenhow you defend your boundaries
are both very unique andpersonal to you but I define and
defend, and I think when I saydefend, I don't want people to
think combat right.
It's exactly the opposite,because you one of the reasons
(41:18):
people are hesitant aboutdefining and defending their
boundaries, or establishingtheir boundaries maybe that's a
better word because it feelslike it's going to be a battle.
Step back, deep breath and Ithink one of the things that
(41:39):
I've heard and learned from ourGen Z children is like the
ability to just say, all right,so that's not okay with me,
right, Like just practicing thatstatement so that it's your
go-to, that's not okay with me,and here's why your go-to that's
not okay with me, and here'swhy right, and just make the
statement.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
So you have to say here's why.
So now Gen X is asking thestupid questions, right?
So do you have to say why, orcan you just say okay, that's
not okay with me.
I mean it's not okay with meBecause I find Gen X, I find me
I'm big on the explainingBecause I find Gen X.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I find me.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
I'm big on the explaining and I find that the
explaining takes me down a paththat now just opens up my
vulnerability.
That I never really wantedanyway.
Right, why do I have to do theexplaining?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Right, you don't have to explain, but our educated
friends in the seats, we do knowit's X-flame, right right, so
you do not have to explain if itmakes you feel vulnerable or
defensive, but sometimes itprovides that opportunity for
(42:53):
clarity, right, so it really iswhat works best for you.
And as you start to practicethe I'm not okay with this, like
you know, I'm not okay withthis, so I'm going to go back to
my desk or I'm going to, youknow, end this call.
Maybe we can pick it up atanother time, right, you don't
have to explain that it's makingyour blood pressure elevated
(43:15):
and I remember when, when myneck got hot right Like or red.
But you don't have to get intoall of that.
You just it's like very clear,calm, kind, I don't, I don't
think this is a I don't.
You know, this is not okay forme and I don't think this is a
productive use of our time.
(43:38):
Right, maybe we can pick it uplater, but maybe not.
You know, you and I weretogether not too long ago and
had some opportunities to showlike, hey, that was a subtle
definition of boundary keeping,right, where nobody's feelings
were hurt.
But it was clear that, like,you're not going to move that
(44:00):
into my space, right, I'm notgoing to move that into my space
and I'm okay If you're nothappy with that, I'm not going
to go over it.
I'm just going to be veryfactual.
No, you, you know.
No, thank you.
I don't want this.
I don't want to do this Right.
I think oftentimes women,especially in dynamics with men,
(44:24):
get this subtle pressure to dosomething.
I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
I don't want to explain it.
I have to go here too, right.
So you know many years incorporate and successfully
navigating the experiences over.
You know 36 years or so, a lotof years.
One of the things that I canhonestly say, especially
starting early career.
(44:51):
You're in spaces where usuallyyou're one of few and if not the
only woman in your set with menand because of that you are in
this prove mode, right, becauseyou don't want anyone ever to
say that you got something thatyou did not earn, something that
(45:21):
you did not earn.
The problem with that is thatif you're overly prove mode
without boundaries and theydon't see it that way you're
just doing way too much.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
And what is.
And then I look back on, likewhat is the toll on you?
Right, when we turn around?
So we continue in this spacethat does not, this corporate or
workspace that does not feellike it supports or sustains us.
But we are going to do what weneed to do and let people move
(45:50):
in and out of our boundary space.
What is the toll that it takes?
Right, so we have this job, butwe're losing our hair.
We have a job, but our bloodpressure is now high enough to
require medication oruncontrolled.
Right, we have this job, andit's not to say you have to give
(46:12):
up the job.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Right, because we understand we have to work for a
living, because this doesn'tmean you don't enjoy it right,
Because we understand we have towork for a living and we do
have aspirations, Because thisdoesn't mean you don't enjoy it,
right?
I mean honestly, you know.
I would say that we haveaspirations for our career right
.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
So, it's a balance.
But if you're taking too muchin right, you have to stop and
assess like is this worth it?
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Is this the right place for me if my health and my
mental health and well-beingare being so deeply impacted
that I can't be myself in otherspaces, and I'm certainly not
myself here have to talk aboutnavigating spaces as female
(47:05):
leaders, and that can be anyspace, right From my you know
healthcare industry leaders, tomy theater industry leaders, to
corporate leaders, right, Ithink there is absolutely some
nuggets in there for us tounpack around how to
successfully do that.
So I would love to have youback to talk about that
particular piece, but before Ilet you go, something that
(47:31):
resonates for me as we talk andthink about boundaries is the
notion of freedom, and it's justthe freedom to be firmly,
clearly, who you are,unapologetically.
And I'd like to read somethingfrom a book that I've just
picked up along the way.
So full credit to the, theauthor of this, but the title is
(47:52):
freedom.
The question that the authorposes is does the artist have a
social responsibility?
Now the author goes in to saysome might agree with this
notion and want to encourageartists to create accordingly.
Those who hold this belief maynot have a clear understanding
of the function of art insociety and its integral social
(48:15):
value.
The work of art serves itspurpose independent of the
creator's interest in socialresponsibility.
Wanting to change people'sminds about an issue or have an
effect on society may interferewith the quality and purity of
the work.
This doesn't mean that our workcan't have those qualities, but
(48:36):
we generally don't get there byplanning them in the creative
process.
It's often more difficult toaccomplish a goal by aiming at
it.
Deciding what to say in advancedoesn't allow whatever's best
to come.
Meaning is assigned once aninspired idea is followed
(48:57):
through.
It's best to wait until a workis complete to discover what it
is saying.
Holding your work hostage tomeaning is a limitation.
One more thing Works thatattempt to overtly preach a
message often don't connect ashoped, while a piece not
intended to address a societalill may become an anthem for a
(49:20):
revolutionary cause.
Art is far more important andmore powerful than our plans of
it.
What does that say to you?
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Oh my God, that says it all, it encapsulates it all.
It is artistic boundaries,freedom through artistic
boundaries.
Do not tell the artist toprescribe.
You know, prescribing theartist to do something, to
(50:01):
address something, you're losingthe whole natural process that
exists.
That is why beautiful art iscreated, because it's created
where the artist says myboundaries, I have my boundaries
about how this piece is goingto be.
It's going to come through me,right?
You're not going to push itthrough me.
(50:23):
It's going to move through me,and that is the epitome of all
boundary setting.
Right?
It's about freedom, mentalwell-being through boundary
setting.
Don't let somebody push a pieceon you, whatever that piece may
be.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
Don't let someone push that piece on you and ask
you to produce something thatdoes not come innately to you,
oh, and I'm going to give a plusone to that and say the
responsibility that we all haveto be mindful of when we become
the pusher.
Yes, and to be mindful and Ithink of that in particular with
(51:03):
our babies, as we talkedearlier right, really kind of
leaning in and assessing wheream I really paying attention and
listening and allowing them toshow and where am I pushing
based on my own boundaries?
So, girl, sis, I love you somuch.
You're amazing.
(51:23):
I'm grateful to God that youare just a new treasure in my
life and this conversationgiving up to him.
We're proven, not perfect, andyou know, we're proud and that's
it.
We just are who we are, nochanging us.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
The doctor is in y'all, we'll be talking more.
See you soon.
Bye.
Hey, proven Not Perfect.
I hope that you're well.
I hope that you're launchingthis new year with inspired
thoughts and feeling like youare exactly where you're
supposed to be.
Yeah, and sometimes that can bea rude awakening as you are
(00:20):
going through something a littletough.
Sometimes that can be pushingyourself to accept the joy that
you're feeling in your heart andin your life, despite the
craziness in the world around us.
It can be any of those things,all of those things, but just
know that you are exactly whereyou are supposed to be, all
(00:42):
right.
So that is what I wanted toshare with you.
So today, now that you are here, we're going to talk about
boundaries.
Boundaries is a big word Um,okay, it's a longer word, ish,
um, but that was not the point.
It's a big word in that, as youreally start to unpack it and
(01:04):
think about boundaries and thinkabout your command of
boundaries, your understandingof your own boundaries and how
you manage and navigate that foryour own personal wellbeing,
it's a huge topic.
It's a huge thing to thinkabout.
So that's why I call it a bigword.
So today I have Dr ShairiTurner.
(01:25):
She is a medical doctor, an MPH.
She's an internist and apediatrician with an expertise
in trauma-informed practices.
She currently serves as thechief health officer at Crisis
Text Line, which is a leadingorganization, external policy
advocacy and partnershipinitiatives related to mental
health.
Crisis Text Line is a nationalnonprofit organization that
(01:50):
provides free, 24-7, text-basedmental health support and crisis
intervention in both Englishand Spanish.
So I'm telling you, this is aresource y'all.
In this role, dr Shirey isfervently committed to
addressing the youth mentalhealth epidemic.
We talk about that, we unpackthat here.
(02:11):
So listen she her background.
Not only is she veryaccomplished academically, going
to some high tier universities,but also she's very
accomplished professionally,serving in both the public and
private sector.
Um, for four years she wasactually the chief medical
(02:32):
director for the Floridadepartment of juvenile justice.
Um, in that role, she wasresponsible for the oversight of
health, mental health andsubstance abuse services.
So the credentials just keepcoming.
They keep coming.
You can hear her read about her, see her featured in NBC, meet
(02:53):
the press.
She's been on Time Scripps News, good Day DC.
Cnn.
Iheartradio Podcast withMichelle Williams, good Day
Seattle, huffpost, whoo chow.
I'm telling you she brings allof the credentials to host us in
a safe place and in a greatconversation to explore our own
(03:15):
understanding and command ofboundaries in our life.
So, without further ado, hereis my podcast, proven Not
Perfect with Dr Shirey Turner.
The Doctor is in the House.
Here we go.
Proven Not Perfect.
The Doctor is in the House, andI'm not saying that lightly.
(03:36):
I'm here today with Dr ShireyTurner, who is very quickly
becoming one of the favoritepeople in my world, is very
quickly becoming one of thefavorite people in my world.
We had the privilege to get allthe titles together at the same
time in this illustrious,wonderful leadership opportunity
in the great state of Floridaat the moment.
But that doesn't even begin toscratch the surface around just
(04:00):
the depth of where ourconversations can go.
So in having those privatelywith her, I decided that it made
a whole lot of sense to tapinto her wisdom, her experience
and her thought and her thoughtprovoking way.
Right, that's one of the thingsthat's really excited me about
(04:21):
our friendship, your thoughtprovoking way.
So, without further ado, thedoctor is in is what we're
calling this segment.
Dr Shirey Turner, welcome toProven Not Perfect.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Thank you, Chantra.
I feel the same.
I feel that we have beenbrought here together
specifically for this moment.
We are the right people, theright time, the right place, the
right moment.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Girl, all of that Okay.
So I wrote this book calledProven, not Perfect, and in the
book I actually was led todefine the seven truths that
sort of resonate for me as acorporate executive, mommy, wife
, christian and so many otherthings.
Right, and for each of myepisodes I try to anchor on one
(05:09):
of the truths right, and reallythat inspires me to say I've got
to talk to this person.
And fortitude is one thatsprung just literally off the
page as I thought about severalof the conversations, the
private conversations that youand I are starting to have, my
definition of fortitude.
I'll go ahead and read and I'dlove to get your thoughts on
(05:30):
what you think Fortitude beingstill in a situation,
acknowledging that the situationis big and I am bigger, seeing
the hedge of protection allaround myself, feeling the wings
of refuge gently brushing myshoulder, seeing light up ahead
(05:56):
and staying strong as it drawsnear.
Wow.
So when I read that to you,what do you hear?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I hear courage, I hear strength, I hear, I hear
boundaries.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Oh, there's that word Boundaries.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I just hear you know like fortitude is about.
You know, in its simplest formcan be about courage in the face
of adversity.
But what I love about yourdefinition is that it's so much
richer, right, it gives visualsomething for us to think about
visually when we think aboutfortitude.
(06:36):
And I love that you've chosenthat for this episode because I
think it really will resonate,because now you know, if not any
other time is a time that isasking us to have courage in the
face of adversity.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh, girl, oh, so true , okay.
So there's so much we got toget into.
Let's start with you.
Yes, when you were a littlegirl.
Um, let's start with you, yes,when you were a little girl.
Who did you want to be when yougrew up?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Ooh.
So for me, as a child, I'm thethe daughter of um people who
were integral to black theater.
So my my dad an actor, director, theater, you know, broadway,
(07:29):
off Broadway, schools, colleges,just anywhere that he could
perfect his craft and continueto, to create his art Right.
And then my mother is a writer,a publisher.
She too taught in theater anddirected, so both of them were
(07:54):
deeply embedded in Black theater.
You know, back when, you know,even before Denzel, and my dad
taught Denzel.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Oh my God, he literally taught Denzel.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
He did, he did.
I put a pin on that girl Firstcrush.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
First crush.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I might have been two , but first crush.
Right, and Samuel L Jackson.
It was all of those folks thatwere up and coming in black
theater, but you know, those arethe names that we recognize,
but they were.
There were so many more, right,who were the next tier, that
(08:35):
really worked to create Blacktheater and make it a movement,
right?
So, black to your question, toyour point, I went in a
different direction.
I went towards science andmedicine and I don't think I,
you know, in retrospect, did Ihave a, you know, my
pediatrician was, you know, inmy space, right, because living
(08:56):
in Black theater, that's what Isaw during the week, at night,
in the weekend and on theweekends.
So when I decided like healingand helping was my superpower,
could be my superpower, I had tolook to who was in that space,
right?
So I didn't have parents whowere doctors, so my pediatrician
actually was, as I think aboutit, the first role model who
(09:19):
showed, showed me what healingand taking care of someone else
actually looked like.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Wow.
So, first of all, they do saythat the actor's creative mind
is very similar to the sciencemind, right?
Isn't that sort of somethingthat we've advanced to
understand?
So how did your parents shapeyour decision or not on the
(09:48):
direction that you would followfor your advanced training and
your education?
And did you start right in thefield, in the area that you
thought you would, or was yourjourney a little bit different
than you anticipated?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
or was your journey a little bit different than you
anticipated?
Yeah, great question.
So they were always hugesupporters, very proud parents.
Initially I had wanted tobecome a veterinarian.
I loved animals.
I worked in a veterinaryhospital from 13 to 17.
Actually, was bitten prettyseverely by a dog and that
(10:27):
caused me to kind of reassesswhat, reevaluate my life choice.
But they were always verysupportive, proud.
You know I would be the firstphysician in the family, as many
of us.
When we take on those firsts,right, the aspirations of the
(10:47):
ancestors are subliminallyplaced on your shoulders, right?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yes, ooh, talk about it.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
The stories of you know, your grandmother wanted to
be a surgeon.
Your grandfather wanted to be adoctor.
Your aunt made it as far asbecoming a nurse, right, a
doctor.
Your aunt made it as far asbecoming a nurse, right.
So there's all this that getslevied on your child, where you
know the interest was there,obviously, but it's, I think,
(11:16):
for many of us, those who areour generation, right, those
external drivers becomeinternalized and take on a life
of their own Right.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So I have to.
I have to ask you to unpackthat a little bit, because I
think that's very interesting.
Because I do think that,generationally speaking, while
many of us were drawn to an areaand a scope of interest and
certainly supported as long asthe formula meant going to
(11:50):
college, getting a degree andchoosing a profession, the more
I talked to my peer group,especially my sisters of color,
(12:11):
there was an extra weight andpressure that we walked into
spaces with because, whether itwas a direct message or whether
it was a subliminal message, itwas understood that it was a
privilege to be a part of asmall percent that can say that
they were able to do thesethings and for that reason we've
represented everybody.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Did you ever hear messages like that, which is not
a word that I use frequently,but immovability, right, like
there was an immovability aboutour destiny, right, because our
parents oftentimes I mean someof us, you know have parents who
(12:55):
were physicians and you know,in those professions.
But many of us did not havethat opportunity, even though
parents were well equipped.
I mean, my grandmother was sotalented in the artistic area,
wrote poems, played the piano,wrote books, right, was just
prolific.
(13:16):
But her father told hereducation is important, but we
only have a certain amount ofresources and we are going to
expend those resources on thesons and not the daughters.
So my grandmother raised herfive children and went back to
college in her sixth Right, soeducation being paramount, so
(13:39):
self-taught.
And then went back to collegeto get her bachelor's and then
went back to college to get herbachelor's.
And, similarly, my mom had goneto college, got her master's,
raised her family and then wentand got her PhD in her seventies
Right, so it's right, educationwas the pathway to whatever was
(14:01):
next for our family, right, soit became-.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Do we feel the same way now with our kids, with your
kids?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
So I think we, I feel that the role that education
played in my life was a big forkin the road, determinant.
So I went to Stanford.
I had, I loved it.
So Yale and Stanford were thetwo choices, the two places.
I applied in the two choicesand, um, I loved Stanford.
(14:32):
So, to go from the Bronx toCalifornia, the sun, the, the
buildings, all of those things,and the, the really robust black
community that existed andstill exists at Stanford
University.
But for me I do feel likeeducation, college, that
(14:56):
university choice, was a hugepiece of the puzzle, right.
So my parents scraped togetherand I had scholarships so that I
could go to a private school inNew York City so that I could
have that opportunity, all theopportunity, right, that they
could think would come.
They were going to put it intoeducation so, where we didn't
take big, elaborate vacationsbecause we couldn't afford to.
(15:17):
They were artists, right, buteducation.
So I went to Stanford, mybrother went to Stanford, that
was where that was the NorthStar, still Right.
So now our generation, wherewe've been able to use education
and go further and have and befortunate enough to have those
(15:39):
resources for our children, forour children.
My premise, my husband's premisewas always find the school that
is right for you Don't letanything that and find the
profession that is right for you.
Not let external mandates,spoken or unspoken from us or
others, dictate where you go tofind that next space, because
(16:04):
it's most important that you arehappy at your university.
Right, we know that youngpeople today, for a myriad of
reasons, are in a mental healthcrisis.
Right, we have a mental healthepidemic.
Suicide amongst young people ofcolor is raging right.
So what we said to our childrenwas find the school that will
(16:26):
make you a better person.
So when you come out at thevery worst, you are neutral to
where you were when you enteredhopefully not version of
yourself.
That that school has, as myhusband likes to say, goes
through you right, like you'vetaken it all in, like you're not
(16:51):
just powering through theschool, but it has gone through
you.
And when you make the rightchoice, the school can actually
do that and you on the otherside is going to be a very
different you than the one thatstarted out.
So one of the things we saidwas you must leave, you know the
city that you grew up in,because growth happens outside
of that space and then that youchoose the school that's going
(17:14):
to go through you and is goingto make you, help you evolve in
your journey, and not choose aschool because of external
reasons.
Right that at the end of thattime there you are less than you
were when you entered, becauseit was not the right fit for you
.
And I think that's still hardfor our peers.
(17:36):
Right, where we're coming out ofhigh tier universities, many
times that we look to you knowwhat is the next our child has
to do, that next best thing?
Well, sometimes that next bestthing these are Gen Z.
Right, we know what that nextbest thing is and if that comes
(17:58):
into friction with the parent,the parent overrides.
Right?
We as parents have that power,that privilege.
We control the purse strings.
Right, we're funding this andwhen we say we're funding your
university, you must go here,that does not equate to finding
the best match for that child.
(18:19):
Or you might have been at thislarge Ivy League school or large
state school.
Your child is wired differently.
Their experiences have beendifferent.
You as their parent aredifferent than your parents.
So they may be looking for thatliberal art experience.
They may be looking for thatHBCU experience.
(18:39):
I can't even tell you how manyof my Stanford classmates have
children at Howard right.
And other HBCUs right, Becausewe see, like we see what today
is and what today means and whatschool then mandates for our
children and we give them thatchoice.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Man, there's so much in there that you said I mean I
think I'll.
I'll just pick a couple ofthings and and would love to get
your thoughts.
First, I definitely want totalk about the increase of
mental illness and, um, thechoice to just give up life, um,
you know, just in general, umall kids, uh, and for sure, um
(19:23):
African-American babies in theUnited States.
And then also want to talk alittle bit more about the times
and being clear that some of thechoices that we make are
largely informed by theexperiences that we have had and
(19:48):
we are having right, and that'strue for us, it's true for our
children, and making space forthat can be freeing.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So you pick which direction we go first, because
they are both like on.
My mind existed in me fromearly on when I started in med
school was around mental healthand ultimately found my way to a
space of advocating for mentalhealth and working towards
supporting the mental health ofyoung people, dealing with this
(20:40):
suicide epidemic that'shappening.
So I want to definitely touchon that because we are losing
children of color at rates.
I mean when we can say suiciderate for children who are five
to 11, Black children who arefive to 11 have a suicide rate
(21:02):
that's twice that of their white.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I'm sorry, how does suicide even happen?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, I think I heard you say age five.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Age five.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yes, suicide is now the number two leading cause of
death for two age groups thathave now collapsed, because it's
the second cause of death 10 to24.
Suicide is the second leadingcause of death.
As you might imagine, in youngpeople is accidents and injuries
(21:35):
right.
That's sort of been the thingfor a while, but now that like
suicide has emerged and that afive-year-old can conceptualize
the end of life and taking one'sown life, doesn't even really
seem feasible.
No, right, like I can't saythat at the age of five or six
(21:58):
or seven I understood whatsuicide was, right.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
But much less death Right.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
At age five.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
You're so curious about this unfolding of a life
that the.
You know the trauma comes when,when and if you are forced to
deal with loss at that early age.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yes, but I think we also now have to to move out of
our sort of space of privilegeand understand that young people
are young young people five,six, seven are in homes where
the generational trauma is realright, and my passion around
(22:44):
mental health really ties tochildhood trauma as well, where
we know now that physical abuse,sexual abuse, emotional abuse,
neglect, parents who areincarcerated, parents with
mental illness, parents whoseparate or loss of through
death or divorce, all of thosethings impact the brain
(23:06):
development of young children,starting in utero, all the way
through.
You know brain development goesinto the early 20s.
All of those experiencesformulate and help shape,
positively or negatively, thebrain development of children.
So now we understand the impactof trauma and you know we're
(23:27):
looking at how does racialtrauma, how will the pandemic
trauma, financial trauma,immigration trauma, like all of
those things are now kind ofcommunity trauma All of those
things are building into ourunderstanding of the environment
that young people, young youngpeople are experiencing.
(23:50):
And then, with you know, theability to access so many things
online and through social media, to be able to find a way to
take one's life right throughsocial media is horrifying.
It's absolutely horrifyingbecause, you know, suicide is a
death of impulse.
(24:10):
Right, it's in that moment theworld seems like it's not.
You know life is not worthliving and if there's an
accessible way to end one's life, you know.
When you know that and havethat accessibility, in that
moment the impulse can beenacted.
But when we think about youknow that moment can pass in.
(24:31):
You know two to three minutes,but the gun gun is available, or
there's an awareness or there'sa plan that those two to three
minutes can be actually life ordeath.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Jesus, oh God, and to your point, the access that our
children have to information.
And, quite frankly, I thinkeven the best parents can't keep
up, shairi Right.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
We are not prepared.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Right, you just can't keep up, we are not prepared.
Not prepared, right, you justcan't keep up because you can
sit them in front of a computeror um a phone and a YouTube
channel or any kind of channeland it looks like it's harmless.
But you watch it with them fora minute and it starts to go
(25:35):
places that maybe start toinvite some of these choices
that you know you wouldn't thinkyour kid would would lock into.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Right Um gosh they are digital natives.
We are not.
We were not.
This is a.
This is a foreign languagewe're trying to learn at as an
adult, versus for them.
They are bilingual, oh they know, they're bilingual in the
digital world and I think theywill be far better prepared than
(26:06):
we were to guide their childrenthrough these spaces.
But you know, the evolution oftechnology is is indefinite,
feels like.
But so we do our best to keepup.
But you know, we're just we'rekeeping up right, as opposed to,
like sometimes not leading,they're leading us.
(26:28):
So what?
What we did as parents was toreally fall back on, like the
values right, like how do youkeep, instead of, you know,
putting up all the walls?
How do you teach them to knowwhat to look for, how to keep
themselves safe?
Because they are going to growup and they do have access.
So it's about having thoseconversations around, you know,
(26:53):
social media and mental healtharound.
How do you, you know, createthose boundaries with your
school classmates?
What's coming right?
It's like a constant dialogue,as opposed to, you know, just
blocking this, blocking that,blocking that, without a
conversation or rationale,because then it almost makes it
more enticing for them to trickus and find a way around these
(27:16):
blocks and continue to explorewithout any sort of parameters.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
So you know what?
I'll tell you this too, as youtalk and I think about being a
mom in this day and time, youknow, in particular to youngers.
Right, you and I we're on theback end of this game and our
kids have largely you and Iwe're on the back end of this
game and our kids have largelyquote unquote got through some
(27:43):
of those formative moments.
But, you know, and they'restill getting through,
admittedly so, but it's a littlebit different than some of the
moms that are coming up rightnow who have school age kids,
younger kids.
They're dealing with thedigital language that their kids
know better than they do.
They're dealing with thepressures of so much going on
(28:07):
just in life, their own careers,choices, some of which were
allowing them to have moreflexibility during COVID, and
now that's gone away.
All the things that they'redealing with.
Right, and I listened to thisand I'm like, okay, so now if
you're mommying, you aremommying and trying to stay
(28:27):
centered and balanced andhealthy mentally yourself, on
top of trying to fight all ofthe fires and demons and darts
that are coming at your littlesas well.
Right, are you seeing anincrease in impact on women, on
moms, and, if so, are theremetrics that speak to some of
(28:52):
those demographics?
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah.
So the Surgeon General one ofhis many, you know, our current,
soon to be previous SurgeonGeneral, us Surgeon General put
out really impactful reports andused his voice and his office
to alert us to things like theyouth mental health epidemic,
(29:17):
the loneliness and isolationthat people are experiencing,
the stress of being a parent inthis current situation, the
current environment howstressful it is for all the
reasons you mentioned.
In addition, just the parentalpeer pressure that can happen
due to, you know, our ability tosee what every other parent is
(29:40):
doing, right, all the vacations,all the parenting tips, like,
if you don't create thoseboundaries and those, you know,
you're inundated, right, you'reinundated with what every other
parent is doing.
You're inundated with whatevery other parent is doing.
And am I stepping up to theplate enough?
(30:01):
Forget about the fact thatpeople have different resources,
different financial, compareand then stress ourselves out if
we're not doing quote, unquote,doing enough.
And then that puts our childrenon that hamster wheel of all the
(30:24):
activities, all the activities.
You have to do this, you haveto have all these things, these
profiles, or you won't go tocollege, right?
And that starts, you know,depending on where you are in
this country.
You know some, some areas ofthe country are more pressurized
than others, right, but it'slike what kindergarten are they
going to?
Like?
The waiting line, you know thewaiting list for daycare is
(30:48):
going to determine what IvyLeague your child goes to.
Whoa Whoa, like that can't dothat.
Whoa whoa, like that can't dothat.
Like there's no safe space fora parent.
When you're imbibing all ofthat, the key to parenting is so
much about being present.
Yes, and everything around usSay that.
(31:22):
For the cheap seats.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Seriously, anyone listening to us that is.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
That's the key to parenting Stay present.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Because there's no rule book, but your child will.
If you stay present, you willsee, you will hear.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, you will hear things you will not be reaching
into your memory about.
You know my childhoodexperience or I should be doing
this or you should be doing thatand really meeting your child
where they are, so they feelseen and heard and acknowledged.
Right, they're not supposed tobe a smaller version of us,
right?
(31:56):
They're actually supposed tohelp us evolve if we really
think about it.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And the evolution, wow, Shirey, honestly, you drip
so much and that's actually sogood and I think so many of us
miss it, right I know for sure.
That's been one of the areas ofopportunity for me where I
think back to things that I mayhave done as a child and a
(32:22):
scenario may present itselfwhere my child could or could
not be in the same scenario andI parent from a place of.
I've been there, I've done thatand, honestly, if there's one
thing that a parent listening tous I think you know from your
experience skills saying thatand me just saying honestly,
(32:46):
I've learned it myself you gotto stop because you push your
child into a place of confusionand distrust as well of
themselves.
Because if you've not, ifthey've not done anything to
lose trust, just because ascenario is a scenario where you
(33:10):
didn't necessarily make a goodchoice, doesn't mean that's
going to be them.
They're raised by you in adifferent point in time, right?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, yeah, wow, proven not perfect, right, I
mean for me every kink on thehead girl you're learning right.
There's no, you know there'sparenting books.
You've got to apply them asyou're.
You know taking the time toread right While you're trying
to raise.
It's the whole.
You know building the planewhile read right while you're
(33:39):
trying to raise.
It's the whole.
You know, building the planewhile it's flying, the plane
while it's flying, and you justfeel caught up in that moment
and it's so very hard to staypresent.
But that that would be the keyto it all, because what you
don't want to say to your childis like you're not okay, like
not, I'm not okay with how youare because you're not like me,
(33:59):
or you're not worse than that,you're not like that child over
there, cause then you're tellingthem that you know, prefer to
be that child's mom than thanyour child.
Like there's all this messagingwhen you don't stay or you have
a framework about who yourchild should be, when in fact
they're just not that person.
They are not.
They were raised by you, theyare half you, they are half
(34:21):
somebody else who was raised byother you know whole other
family.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
That's right, Right.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
So we can't, if we can just step back and let that
go, especially in these momentswhen the world is swirling
around our children and we justsay I see you, I hear you, I'm
here for you, I want the bestfor you.
Like that would go such a longway.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
All right.
So now we got to go back tothis word that's come up a
couple of times boundaries.
Let's talk about boundaries.
So first of all, how do youdefine boundaries, and why is
the word boundaries on your mindright now in such a big way?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah.
So it came to me sort of thebeginning of this year.
Every year I try to first like,set some goals and plan and
figure out what the theme of theyear is, and I think what
happened towards the end of lastyear was just having
conversations, some specificconversations, where I exerted
(35:24):
my boundaries, I defined myboundaries, I exerted my
boundaries in a way that wascalm and then recognized how
freeing, how free I felt afterthat conversation, how free I
felt, how empowered and then howmentally my well-being was
(35:45):
enhanced and I was likeboundaries are, I think,
especially for us as women.
Sometimes we find it hard todefine our boundaries and really
, when I say boundaries, it'sthe physical space, it's the
psychological, emotional space,it's the mental space that we
need to take to put betweenourselves and others.
(36:08):
And I think what's interestingis when people, many times, when
people think about boundaries,they envision like building
brick walls.
Right, I'm going to build thisboundary, I'm going to you know
like I'm going to stand here,I'm going to defend it, I'm
going to fight.
It's a fight when I tell youwhat my boundary might be, when,
in fact, a boundary can be, youknow, a chain link, fence,
(36:31):
right when you can see throughit, you can hear through it, you
can touch the other person onthe other side, but there's some
clarity about what is my spaceemotionally, psychologically,
physically and what is yourspace.
Wow, it's not a battle, right?
It is in fact an opportunityfor me to clarify for myself
(36:53):
what my priorities and valuesare and to share them with you
and then, once we have thatunderstanding, to connect more
authentically and not less.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So I can think of that being a relevant thing to
consider in every lane of ourlife, whether it's our family
life, whether it's our familylife, whether it's our faith
life, our spiritual life,whether it's our work life,
right, community life, all of it, right?
Wow?
So have you put into practicesome specific things that would
(37:31):
be useful as we think aboutboundaries and what it means for
us?
Because just because you readthat in the word and that's how
the word resonated in your heart, doesn't mean that that's how I
read it and it resonated in myheart.
In fact, if it's a living word,it's gonna naturally be a
little bit different what I hearand what you hear, because
(37:52):
we're different people right.
So tell me how you get, how yousort of reconcile and keep that.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, so everybody's boundaries are different, right,
we were all raised differently.
We had different parents, wewere raised in different parts
of the country, maybe differentparts of the world where, like
when you think about physicalboundaries, some people are not
huggers, right, and some peopledon't want you close in their
space.
But I think the point theimportant things about
(38:19):
boundaries is first gettingclear about what's important to
you, right?
What are the things that makeyou feel safe and secure when
you interact with others?
Right, like A boundary is Idon't want to be around people
who are constantly negative,right, it doesn't feel good.
(38:40):
I don't want to take that inand start emulating that in
anyone.
That person is a relative rightwhich, if you have to say you
know, get clear with yourselfabout you.
Know how much time you'rewilling to spend, if any.
(39:03):
You know we just came out ofthe holiday season.
Oftentimes it's those timeswhen you're kind of naturally
going to interact with folks whomay not share the same values,
where you have to establish yourboundaries.
And I just think, knowingwhat's important to you, right?
Is it physical space?
Is it topics of conversation?
(39:24):
You know boundaries around now,the whole political
conversation and where we'regoing as a country, right.
How much do you want to engagein that with other people?
Right, being clear for yourself, for yourself.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, right, and then putting that in practice I just
think about it practicallyspeaking for me.
So if I'm clear up front onwhat my boundaries are and I
love that one I don't want tointentionally place myself to
hear negativity and be a part ofnegativity Right, and so, if
(40:00):
that's the case, if that's myclear thing, and I'm in a
situation where maybe it'sfamily, maybe it's work, maybe
it's something right, um, whatis my strategy?
To quickly acknowledge that I'mnow in a space that's no longer
serving me?
And then how do I navigate?
(40:22):
What are going to be mystrategies to navigate my way
out of it?
If it's a work situation, maybeit's.
You know, with all due respect,I don't share that viewpoint
and I really don't care todiscuss it.
Right, yeah, and it's.
And this, and the conversationends yeah, maybe you do the same
(40:42):
thing in your family, or you dothe same thing you know
otherwise, Right?
Or maybe it happens around youand you sort of hum, I don't
know.
But I think it starts withbeing clear.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yep, and and and how you define.
First how you defined and thenhow you defend your boundaries
are both very unique andpersonal to you but I define and
defend, and I think when I saydefend, I don't want people to
think combat right.
It's exactly the opposite,because you one of the reasons
(41:18):
people are hesitant aboutdefining and defending their
boundaries, or establishingtheir boundaries maybe that's a
better word because it feelslike it's going to be a battle.
Step back, deep breath and Ithink one of the things that
(41:39):
I've heard and learned from ourGen Z children is like the
ability to just say, all right,so that's not okay with me,
right, Like just practicing thatstatement so that it's your
go-to, that's not okay with me,and here's why your go-to that's
not okay with me, and here'swhy right, and just make the
statement.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
So you have to say here's why.
So now Gen X is asking thestupid questions, right?
So do you have to say why, orcan you just say okay, that's
not okay with me.
I mean it's not okay with meBecause I find Gen X, I find me
I'm big on the explainingBecause I find Gen X.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I find me.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
I'm big on the explaining and I find that the
explaining takes me down a paththat now just opens up my
vulnerability.
That I never really wantedanyway.
Right, why do I have to do theexplaining?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Right, you don't have to explain, but our educated
friends in the seats, we do knowit's X-flame, right right, so
you do not have to explain if itmakes you feel vulnerable or
defensive, but sometimes itprovides that opportunity for
(42:53):
clarity, right, so it really iswhat works best for you.
And as you start to practicethe I'm not okay with this, like
you know, I'm not okay withthis, so I'm going to go back to
my desk or I'm going to, youknow, end this call.
Maybe we can pick it up atanother time, right, you don't
have to explain that it's makingyour blood pressure elevated
(43:15):
and I remember when, when myneck got hot right Like or red.
But you don't have to get intoall of that.
You just it's like very clear,calm, kind, I don't, I don't
think this is a I don't.
You know, this is not okay forme and I don't think this is a
productive use of our time.
(43:38):
Right, maybe we can pick it uplater, but maybe not.
You know, you and I weretogether not too long ago and
had some opportunities to showlike, hey, that was a subtle
definition of boundary keeping,right, where nobody's feelings
were hurt.
But it was clear that, like,you're not going to move that
(44:00):
into my space, right, I'm notgoing to move that into my space
and I'm okay If you're nothappy with that, I'm not going
to go over it.
I'm just going to be veryfactual.
No, you, you know.
No, thank you.
I don't want this.
I don't want to do this Right.
I think oftentimes women,especially in dynamics with men,
(44:24):
get this subtle pressure to dosomething.
I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
I don't want to explain it.
I have to go here too, right.
So you know many years incorporate and successfully
navigating the experiences over.
You know 36 years or so, a lotof years.
One of the things that I canhonestly say, especially
starting early career.
(44:51):
You're in spaces where usuallyyou're one of few and if not the
only woman in your set with menand because of that you are in
this prove mode, right, becauseyou don't want anyone ever to
say that you got something thatyou did not earn, something that
(45:21):
you did not earn.
The problem with that is thatif you're overly prove mode
without boundaries and theydon't see it that way you're
just doing way too much.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
And what is.
And then I look back on, likewhat is the toll on you?
Right, when we turn around?
So we continue in this spacethat does not, this corporate or
workspace that does not feellike it supports or sustains us.
But we are going to do what weneed to do and let people move
(45:50):
in and out of our boundary space.
What is the toll that it takes?
Right, so we have this job, butwe're losing our hair.
We have a job, but our bloodpressure is now high enough to
require medication oruncontrolled.
Right, we have this job, andit's not to say you have to give
(46:12):
up the job.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Right, because we understand we have to work for a
living, because this doesn'tmean you don't enjoy it right,
Because we understand we have towork for a living and we do
have aspirations, Because thisdoesn't mean you don't enjoy it,
right?
I mean honestly, you know.
I would say that we haveaspirations for our career right
.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
So, it's a balance.
But if you're taking too muchin right, you have to stop and
assess like is this worth it?
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Is this the right place for me if my health and my
mental health and well-beingare being so deeply impacted
that I can't be myself in otherspaces, and I'm certainly not
myself here have to talk aboutnavigating spaces as female
(47:05):
leaders, and that can be anyspace, right From my you know
healthcare industry leaders, tomy theater industry leaders, to
corporate leaders, right, Ithink there is absolutely some
nuggets in there for us tounpack around how to
successfully do that.
So I would love to have youback to talk about that
particular piece, but before Ilet you go, something that
(47:31):
resonates for me as we talk andthink about boundaries is the
notion of freedom, and it's justthe freedom to be firmly,
clearly, who you are,unapologetically.
And I'd like to read somethingfrom a book that I've just
picked up along the way.
So full credit to the, theauthor of this, but the title is
(47:52):
freedom.
The question that the authorposes is does the artist have a
social responsibility?
Now the author goes in to saysome might agree with this
notion and want to encourageartists to create accordingly.
Those who hold this belief maynot have a clear understanding
of the function of art insociety and its integral social
(48:15):
value.
The work of art serves itspurpose independent of the
creator's interest in socialresponsibility.
Wanting to change people'sminds about an issue or have an
effect on society may interferewith the quality and purity of
the work.
This doesn't mean that our workcan't have those qualities, but
(48:36):
we generally don't get there byplanning them in the creative
process.
It's often more difficult toaccomplish a goal by aiming at
it.
Deciding what to say in advancedoesn't allow whatever's best
to come.
Meaning is assigned once aninspired idea is followed
(48:57):
through.
It's best to wait until a workis complete to discover what it
is saying.
Holding your work hostage tomeaning is a limitation.
One more thing Works thatattempt to overtly preach a
message often don't connect ashoped, while a piece not
intended to address a societalill may become an anthem for a
(49:20):
revolutionary cause.
Art is far more important andmore powerful than our plans of
it.
What does that say to you?
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Oh my God, that says it all, it encapsulates it all.
It is artistic boundaries,freedom through artistic
boundaries.
Do not tell the artist toprescribe.
You know, prescribing theartist to do something, to
(50:01):
address something, you're losingthe whole natural process that
exists.
That is why beautiful art iscreated, because it's created
where the artist says myboundaries, I have my boundaries
about how this piece is goingto be.
It's going to come through me,right?
You're not going to push itthrough me.
(50:23):
It's going to move through me,and that is the epitome of all
boundary setting.
Right?
It's about freedom, mentalwell-being through boundary
setting.
Don't let somebody push a pieceon you, whatever that piece may
be.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
Don't let someone push that piece on you and ask
you to produce something thatdoes not come innately to you,
oh, and I'm going to give a plusone to that and say the
responsibility that we all haveto be mindful of when we become
the pusher.
Yes, and to be mindful and Ithink of that in particular with
(51:03):
our babies, as we talkedearlier right, really kind of
leaning in and assessing wheream I really paying attention and
listening and allowing them toshow and where am I pushing
based on my own boundaries?
So, girl, sis, I love you somuch.
You're amazing.
(51:23):
I'm grateful to God that youare just a new treasure in my
life and this conversationgiving up to him.
We're proven, not perfect, andyou know, we're proud and that's
it.
We just are who we are, nochanging us.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
The doctor is in y'all, we'll be talking more.
See you soon.
Bye.
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