May 20, 2024 • 26 mins
Have you ever been jolted by a thought so strange and out of character that it stopped you in your tracks? Harold joined me in a riveting exchange where we unpack these mental intruders, commonly known as intrusive thoughts. We dissect the often negative and fear-inducing impact they have on our lives, from innocuous 'what-ifs' to thoughts that make us question our morality. This conversation isn't just about identifying these thoughts; it's a journey towards understanding the fine line between them and genuine urges, exploring the brain's oddities, and when to recognize that it's time to seek professional help.
Harold's curiosity leads us through a nuanced discussion, shedding light on how stress, fatigue, and life's pressures can make us particularly vulnerable to these unwanted cogitations. We delve into the ways these thoughts can escalate from simply bizarre to indicators of deeper psychological issues like PTSD or OCD, potentially governing our behaviors and seeding irrational fears. By the end of our talk, not only will you feel less alone in your experiences, but you'll also be armed with the knowledge of how to manage these thoughts and when it's crucial to reach out for support. So sit back, listen, and let's navigate the murky waters of our mind together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
The following is a series of candid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional.
To learn more info regardingadditional disclaimers, privacy
policies and terms andconditions, please visit
HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast
where we talk about thepsychology of everyday living,
and I'm your host, dr Tammy.
I'm joined today by a guestquestion.
He listened to the lastepisodes and just specifically
(00:50):
said can you tell me more aboutwhat an intrusive thought is?
And I thought what a greatopportunity and asked him if
he'd be willing to come and havea discussion with me so that
our listeners can be involved inthis.
And he agreed, so I'm soexcited to have him here today.
Welcome, harold.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Hello Tammy, Dr Tammy , Hello guests, listeners.
Yeah, I'm pretty interested inpsychology in general and
excited to be here today.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Right.
Well, I'm excited to have you,and your question to me really
got me thinking about how I canget into my, I can put on my hat
of being a psychologist, andwhat I'm trying to do is
remember to take that hat off.
Keep it on, but take it offwhen I need to and make sure
that the words that I'm usingare relatable and that they can
(01:41):
be used by all of our listeners.
So I really appreciated that.
It brought me back to thepurpose of this show, and the
show was originally designed tohave conversations with
individuals, and, if you guysremember Rob, he was on with us
a very long time and I've hadother guests, and so I'm really
(02:03):
glad to kind of go back to thatformat right now.
So again, when you think aboutintrusive thoughts, it relates
to an unwanted thought.
It's something that pops up andit has something negative
associated with it.
It's something that's basicallyunwanted and so that's why it's
(02:24):
considered intrusive.
It's like it's not invited inbut it's somehow entering your
awareness and it's focusing yourattention on something that may
be unpleasant.
Kind of nervous or very fearfulof these thoughts, because
(02:48):
they're often associated withfear or thoughts that are maybe
inappropriate, or they kind ofwonder if that's their
personality.
So they kind of start to get alittle and a lot concerned about
such thoughts.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Uh right about such thoughts, uh right.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Can you see how that um is that kind of helping, or
did?
Is there more that I can giveyou, maybe a good example of
what that is for our listeners?
Because I feel like maybe Ijust I just said a whole
mouthful there again.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah, yeah, you did Um, but I think you explained it
well.
Just that explanation helps mebetter understand what
rumination intrusive thoughtsare, but an example would be
pretty helpful.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Okay, so a common example would be like fear of
walking out of a store andstealing something.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Oh, so something that .
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Like something you don't, an individual who really
doesn't want to do those kindsof behaviors.
All of a sudden in their mindthey may be in a store shopping
and all of a sudden an intrusive, unwanted, negative thought of
like grab that, uh that 20dollar, uh you know package of
(04:12):
meat and stuff it in your purseand walk out right.
Their mind may be thinking andeven maybe even seeing
themselves do that and it'stotally against their character.
So they start to go.
Why did I just think that?
What am I doing?
Am I a bad person?
Would I?
Is there a chance I wouldactually do this?
(04:33):
And then they really start touh, start to question themselves
and then feel a lot of shame,worry and fear associated with
their own personality.
They, they start to questionthemselves.
Yep.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
For me.
I got an example that might, Ithink, would align with.
That is and this is kind of anextreme one but say you're, I'm
driving down the road, and thenI have a thought oh what if I
just drove into this truck,which is absolutely insane and I
would never do that Would thatbe considered Perfect example?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Okay, perfect example .
And when I'm educating patientswhen they don't really know
what it is, many people arescared to talk about them.
So it's usually not untilpatients are really comfortable
with me or feel safe enough thatthey open up about even a
thought like you just talkedabout.
(05:30):
And so I'm glad that you wentfor an extreme example, because
voicing it and knowing rightaway that that's not whatever,
ever, what, that I would neverdo, that do that.
You know why am I thinking?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
that already shows yep, and you kind of you already
touched on this already.
But whenever you have thatthought, it questions your own.
You start to question your ownpersonality and your own.
Uh, you know your own morals,your own, you know ethical
principle system, but am I bad?
Am I a bad person?
Am I?
What the hell?
Am I suicidal?
(06:06):
Suddenly, like no, I'm not, I'mjust.
I just had a crazy thought.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
I'm not, I'm normal, I'm okay, just cruising on the
road I'm just cruising on theroad yeah and so I think that's
that's, that's that self-talk ofum paying attention to a
thought like that and it'sintrusive means it's it was not
invited in, you weren't drivingin like Ooh, let's just have a
really scary thought right nowthat freaks me out.
(06:33):
It was uninvited, it popped intoyour mind in one thing.
When those thoughts pop in,it's kind of like Whoa you're?
You might even have aphysiological reaction like a
bit of anxiety or a bit of likewhat the heck am I thinking?
And that's where you start anddo those things.
You said like hold on, this is.
(06:56):
You called it a crazy thought.
And then this is the importanceof this podcast.
So I'm now saying you can callthat an intrusive thought.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, correct the language a little bit.
There you go.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And I think that's the most powerful thing about
psychologists say, is using theterms that we do use in
psychology so that you canappropriately label what's going
on, versus using some of theterms that society has set up
that has the negativeconnotations and then so we
(07:29):
start to have shame andself-doubt and fear.
Versus saying, oh wait, that'san intrusive thought and people,
everybody experiences intrusivethoughts at some point.
And the difference is when anindividual starts to have
intrusive thoughts that somepoint and the difference is when
an individual starts to haveintrusive thoughts that are
really bothersome, repetitiveand very difficult to
(07:54):
distinguish.
You were able to go hold on,I'm not going to do that, I'm
not wanting to hurt myself oranybody else.
Wow, that was strange.
And you were able to, you know,collect yourself and, of course
, no urge to actually engage inthe behavior.
Yep, so those are.
That's like a self-analysis,and sometimes people may not
(08:18):
even have the ability to do that.
That thought may have justscared them and so that thought
sits there as a fear thoughtthat may repetitively kind of
come up over and over again forthem.
That's where it could lead tolike, boy, I really am starting
to get scared.
I would actually do somethinglike that one day.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Right, so like it repeats so often in their head
that it may become a reality.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That they're fearful that this is something about me,
this is something that maybe Iactually desire, or this means
I'm really struggling withsomething and because of that
shame or that fear or thatself-doubt, they're not really
sharing that with anybody.
(09:04):
They're really hoarding,they're hiding that in secrecy.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Right.
So I guess my first question isIs there a difference between
having one or two singleintrusive thoughts versus these
here and there throughout, um,you know, the week or?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
throughout the month, throughout the year, and that
you're able to go whoa, okay, nourge, no desire to do that,
that was interesting, that wasstrange.
And you're able to redirectyour thought onto something else
.
Yeah, versus uh.
The other end, whereindividuals start, especially if
you have an anxiety disorder,it's not as easy to just go oh,
(10:05):
that was interesting, thatdidn't mean anything, that was
strange.
And redirect your brain into,oh, that has nothing to do with
my reality.
So an anxious brain, somebodywho has anxiety or depression,
their brain is not able to justshift like that.
Okay, there you go.
So all of a sudden, that thatthought, whatever that intrusive
(10:27):
thought is, uh, I'll give youanother example so listeners can
hear this uh, like just athought of I'm gonna, I what if
I hurt somebody?
In terms of of I'm in thekitchen and I see kitchen knives
oh my God, I'm walking with one, I'm trying to put it away.
Oh my gosh, what if I hurtsomebody?
Just walking with the knife Justwalking, trying to put the
(10:48):
knife back in the drawer, and soI think it's that fear thought
of oh gosh, why did I just thinkthat?
And so it's these reallynegative thoughts that an
individual again very important.
There's no urge, no history ofthat type of behavior.
It's coming out of the clearblue.
(11:11):
But when a person is anxious,they start to worry about that,
that that means something biggerfor them and they may repent,
they may avoid then or you know,I don't want to touch any
knives in the house, I don'twant to.
You know, I'm fearful that Iwould actually act on this
thought.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Right.
So so I guess the just the idea, just having an intrusive
thought it could lead tointrusive thought itself isn't a
disorder or anything.
It's natural Everyone.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
It's a symptom.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
It's a symptom.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yep, and then so it's a symptom when it becomes part
of other symptoms that becomeuncomfortable.
Sure, so it could be a symptomof trauma, ptsd.
Sure, of like trauma, ptsd,things, that these things that
(12:06):
intrusively pop up for you, thatare difficult and unwanted and
have a negative impact on howyou're functioning in that
moment, and they come often andthey're a real difficulty
redirecting, okay, uh, maybeeven distinguishing the reality
of them, like we're talkingabout, yeah, um, and so
everybody and just will havethese intrusive thoughts.
(12:29):
Yes, and when they become partof um, like if somebody came in,
they, they it's a part of abigger picture, of something
like anxiety, depression.
It's a difficulty reallycontrolling that.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Okay, so it's a symptom, right?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
It's a symptom for somebody who has like, who's
experiencing at a high rate okayso a symptom becomes like a
clinical term, okay for, uh,somebody who is experiencing
distress, okay, and that it's,it's bothersome, it's it's
impairing them in some way, okay.
So that's the differencebetween, like, a person who
(13:21):
every now and again has thisintrusive thought of like whoa
that was everybody has anintrusive thought uh, yes pretty
much everybody pretty mucheverybody that's.
The brain is kind of like thesefear thoughts okay the
difference is those individualsand go, that was a strange
thought, whoa, and then theyredirect and so somebody who
goes whoa, and then they havethat thought again, and then
(13:43):
later again, and then it becomesuh, what if I do this?
But I don't want to, it'stotally nothing, that has to do
with anything I've ever done inlife.
Does this mean I'm a bad person, um, for even having these
thoughts right?
And so that's when it becomesuncontrollable and that's where
(14:07):
um, coming in and just talking,usually people don't present for
that, they present for likepanic.
I'm feeling anxious, right, Ican't sleep at night, I'm having
difficulty relaxing, I'mfeeling down or depressed.
So eventually you start to beable to see other things that
(14:30):
become part of just impairingtheir everyday functioning and
causing them distress dayfunctioning and causing them
distress.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Right At what point, whenever you're looking at, say,
someone comes in and you'retalking to them and they have
the rumination or theseintrusive thoughts.
Where does your mind go, as faras like where, well, what could
this person be experiencing?
Or what should I be looking atto help this person?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Right, it's understanding that.
What do they believe about this?
Do they have an urge to dosomething like that?
A?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
true urge.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
A true urge.
So that's where somebody in ourfield would be necessary to
help somebody sort through this.
So we're talking today aboutindividuals who have intrusive
thoughts, who have absolutely.
They scare them, they'retotally against their
personality, their nature.
They don't have any desire tosteal something, it's more of a
(15:33):
oh my gosh.
It's really inconsistent withthe way they actually behave in
life.
That's why it's so devastatingthat these thoughts could pop up
, and so that's part of theassessment.
So it's an intrusive thoughtand it's something that you have
to understand, if there's any.
(15:55):
There are people out that seekbehavioral health, mental health
, that are struggling with urgesto engage in self-destructive
acts, right, who these thoughtsreally scare them, they feel a
(16:16):
lot of shame with them, theydon't talk about them and it's
creating so much anxiety becausethey don't understand why
they're having them Right.
So I'm so glad when anindividual starts to share some
of those in session, then I cantell them oh, okay, and I can
walk them through that and thenthey can understand it, and the
(16:40):
more they talk about theseintrusive thoughts, the more um
power that they can have overthem.
That's like kind of getting itoff your chest and understanding
it yeah, understanding yeahdemystifying it, labeling it,
and then it's like okay, uh, Ialso.
They'll also come up more.
If you're an anxious person andyou're having really anxious
(17:05):
like a period of time, extrastress, more fatigue, this is a
time when those fear thoughtsmay come up more often.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah, those factors will increase the chance of an
intrusive thought.
There you go, okay.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So then, giving people that education, they're
like, oh, that makes sense.
You know I don't always havethese, but yeah, when I'm
stressed out and I'm overwhelmedand I'm tired, I'm not eating
well, I'm not taking care ofmyself, I feel uptight.
Yeah, I tend to have way moreof those fear thoughts and they,
(17:39):
they come out of the blue, butthey happen like during that
time and then.
So I said, well, that that's agood sign to do a self-check,
that your anxiety is really high, that your intrusive thoughts
are increasing.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
right, so there'll be more intrusive thoughts
whenever someone's uh moreanxious or going through a
stressful time, but they couldhappen anytime.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Even in times of good .
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yes, that's the thing they're uninvited, you're not
preparing for them, you're notsaying you know, today I want to
definitely have this reallyscary thought or unpleasant, and
then so a lot of that itbecomes with vocalizing it,
sharing it to somebody who canhelp demystify it.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Right, like, you're not a bad person, you're not
crazy, you're okay.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Not at all.
Yeah, not at all.
So there's so many moreexamples.
We kind of stuck to some prettyextreme, like hurting somebody,
you know.
We kind of stuck to some somepretty extreme, you know, like,
yeah, you know, hurting somebody, or um, I think it was good
that, uh, we talked about thatbecause it's it's showing the,
the um that how, how big thesecan get yeah, the range of it,
(18:49):
the range um, and so it's it's.
There's so many other thingsthat are involved with that and
um, it's.
It's more about how do I talkabout it, how do I learn to
label it?
How do I um?
What can I do to if I'm havingthese?
(19:10):
How do I shift?
How do I?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
right, how do you shift?
Because you know, like youdon't really control your
thoughts, they kind of pop in asthey will and you can probably
influence the way you think alittle bit.
But for the most part the wayyou think is the way you think
and that's just the way it is,at least from my understanding,
From your understanding right.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And then, of course, because I do CBT cognitive
behavior therapy I would want tojust like totally reframe all
of that in terms of thisintrusive thought.
Yes, it's like that.
You're not in control of itbecause it's popping in there.
You're not doing it on purpose.
Yet now that you know what itis, you can label it.
(19:57):
You can see that there's such arange.
So anything that's an unwanted,almost like a what-if thought
that scares the crap out of you,that goes against your
personality or that you feellike you really want to hide or
you're shame about that's whenyou can start to go oh wait,
okay, I can label this, I cantell my brain what it is.
(20:17):
I can even this.
I can tell my brain what it is.
I can even file it.
I can say you know what?
That's an unnecessary, unwantedthought.
I'm going to create a filesystem in my brain that I'm
going to file that as anintrusive thought.
It's a waste of my time, it's awaste of my energy and I'm
going to put it in this file andI'm going to lock that in my
(20:39):
brain.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Right.
So if it does come up again,you know it goes back to that
file.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
You go back, you do the same thing of oh, there it
is again.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yep, I've been here before.
I've been here before Yep.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
There used to be something that they did in terms
of like thought stopping whereyou would try to just go, stop,
stop.
And it's kind of like it wasn'treally working because it's
like don't say that, Don't thinkof red, Don't say the color you
know.
All of a sudden, your brainwants to go red, red, red, red.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So instead it's more about um having that kind of
empowerment of um I think evenbeing scared of it is what makes
it come on.
more it's like any kind ofanxiety, the more fear that's.
What keeps anxiety growing andmaintaining is the fear of it.
So once you're no longer scaredof these thoughts, you
understand where they're comingfrom, then you do have control
(21:34):
over them.
And the other thing is talkingabout them, reading about them.
So we can't cover every one ofthe intrusive thoughts here.
But going online and getting abook about intrusive thoughts,
anxiety, generalized anxietydisorder, OCD, kind of looking
(21:57):
at different things, you canstart to see the wide range of
what these thoughts look likeand people can start to say,
okay, oh, wow, I'm not the onlyone who has that fear.
When I'm holding a kitchenknife, I mean, wow, we are, you
know.
So it starts to um, peoplestart to feel like, okay, this,
this is, this, could be part ofthis anxiety and I'm not alone
(22:19):
in this Right, and there'streatment for this.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yep, you bring that up like the.
I'm not alone in this.
What's interesting is I see ina poll it was a meme, so it was
a picture of someone near CliffEdge and the title was what if I
jumped off?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
No.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I'm not going to off.
No, I'm not gonna do that.
I wouldn't do that lol that's aperfect right yeah, and I'm
like, oh okay, other people havethese wild, crazy intrusive
thoughts too.
At the time I wouldn't havesaid intrusive, but yeah, and
now.
That's a perfect example it ledme away from like, oh okay,
other people experienced this,Now I can kind of move on away
(23:00):
from it.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yes, and I can relate to others.
It doesn't mean that I'm a badperson.
And those are some of thequestions that right away I'll
tell my patient.
Right away I'll tell my patient.
(23:25):
Like the thought that the factthat the thought distresses you
this much already shows thatit's one of those intrusive
thoughts.
It's so upsetting to you thatyou're even thinking about it
shows me already that this is asign of anxiety.
This is, this does not haveanything to do with an urge or
an intent or a plan to actuallydo something like this right so
that alone can help people go.
(23:46):
Oh so, yes, that fits that.
That helps me understand that.
Um, that's why I'm, that's whyit scares me so much, because
there's absolutely no way Iwould do something like that.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
And for the people that think of those thoughts and
sticks in their head, there's alarger, probably a larger issue
at hand than just the thoughtitself.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
They're not able to, you know, so that's good for
people listening to the podcast.
This is a we're definitelytalking about.
You know, bigger issues herethat are probably getting a lot
of people, you know, doing a lotof self-awareness,
self-analyzing, and so I want tomake sure that remember, this
(24:30):
is a discussion for ourlisteners to engage in, and then
to make sure that you do somemore of your research on this.
If you feel like you'restruggling with this, definitely
seek out some mental health inyour area.
This is something that, if it'scoming on a lot, you don't want
to tackle this alone.
This is something where even aconversation like today is
(24:52):
something similar.
You could do with a therapistand start to work on healing and
understanding things like thisversus, you know, suffering
through them, and so I thinkthis was a really good talk
today and I want to thank all ofour listeners and thank you
Great, great, great questions.
(25:14):
I mean my brain's going and Iknow that we only have so much
time, so I know that this isanother.
You know, we'll definitelyrevisit this, because we didn't
even get into, like ruminationor OC obsessions and OCD type.
I mentioned those a bit, soit's already like where we're,
(25:34):
our brains, are starting to wantto talk about all the different
areas where a higher level orproblematic level of intrusive
thoughts could come into playand really cause some distress
in somebody's life.
So I just want to remindeverybody that this was a great
conversation.
This is not a replacement fortherapy.
(25:56):
This is a discussion, and so Idefinitely want you to seek out
your resources and seek support,and thank you for listening.
I want to thank our guest,harold, for joining us today and
just really having a stimulatedconversation about intrusive
thoughts.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, it's been great .
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
PS.
Intrusive thoughts are normal,but if you feel like acting on
one of these thoughts in a waythat could cause harm to
yourself or someone else, getmedical help immediately.
Thank you for listening.
The following is a series of candid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional.
To learn more info regardingadditional disclaimers, privacy
policies and terms andconditions, please visit
HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast
where we talk about thepsychology of everyday living,
and I'm your host, dr Tammy.
I'm joined today by a guestquestion.
He listened to the lastepisodes and just specifically
(00:50):
said can you tell me more aboutwhat an intrusive thought is?
And I thought what a greatopportunity and asked him if
he'd be willing to come and havea discussion with me so that
our listeners can be involved inthis.
And he agreed, so I'm soexcited to have him here today.
Welcome, harold.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Hello Tammy, Dr Tammy , Hello guests, listeners.
Yeah, I'm pretty interested inpsychology in general and
excited to be here today.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Right.
Well, I'm excited to have you,and your question to me really
got me thinking about how I canget into my, I can put on my hat
of being a psychologist, andwhat I'm trying to do is
remember to take that hat off.
Keep it on, but take it offwhen I need to and make sure
that the words that I'm usingare relatable and that they can
(01:41):
be used by all of our listeners.
So I really appreciated that.
It brought me back to thepurpose of this show, and the
show was originally designed tohave conversations with
individuals, and, if you guysremember Rob, he was on with us
a very long time and I've hadother guests, and so I'm really
(02:03):
glad to kind of go back to thatformat right now.
So again, when you think aboutintrusive thoughts, it relates
to an unwanted thought.
It's something that pops up andit has something negative
associated with it.
It's something that's basicallyunwanted and so that's why it's
(02:24):
considered intrusive.
It's like it's not invited inbut it's somehow entering your
awareness and it's focusing yourattention on something that may
be unpleasant.
Kind of nervous or very fearfulof these thoughts, because
(02:48):
they're often associated withfear or thoughts that are maybe
inappropriate, or they kind ofwonder if that's their
personality.
So they kind of start to get alittle and a lot concerned about
such thoughts.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Uh right about such thoughts, uh right.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Can you see how that um is that kind of helping, or
did?
Is there more that I can giveyou, maybe a good example of
what that is for our listeners?
Because I feel like maybe Ijust I just said a whole
mouthful there again.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah, yeah, you did Um, but I think you explained it
well.
Just that explanation helps mebetter understand what
rumination intrusive thoughtsare, but an example would be
pretty helpful.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Okay, so a common example would be like fear of
walking out of a store andstealing something.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Oh, so something that .
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Like something you don't, an individual who really
doesn't want to do those kindsof behaviors.
All of a sudden in their mindthey may be in a store shopping
and all of a sudden an intrusive, unwanted, negative thought of
like grab that, uh that 20dollar, uh you know package of
(04:12):
meat and stuff it in your purseand walk out right.
Their mind may be thinking andeven maybe even seeing
themselves do that and it'stotally against their character.
So they start to go.
Why did I just think that?
What am I doing?
Am I a bad person?
Would I?
Is there a chance I wouldactually do this?
(04:33):
And then they really start touh, start to question themselves
and then feel a lot of shame,worry and fear associated with
their own personality.
They, they start to questionthemselves.
Yep.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
For me.
I got an example that might, Ithink, would align with.
That is and this is kind of anextreme one but say you're, I'm
driving down the road, and thenI have a thought oh what if I
just drove into this truck,which is absolutely insane and I
would never do that Would thatbe considered Perfect example?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Okay, perfect example .
And when I'm educating patientswhen they don't really know
what it is, many people arescared to talk about them.
So it's usually not untilpatients are really comfortable
with me or feel safe enough thatthey open up about even a
thought like you just talkedabout.
(05:30):
And so I'm glad that you wentfor an extreme example, because
voicing it and knowing rightaway that that's not whatever,
ever, what, that I would neverdo, that do that.
You know why am I thinking?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
that already shows yep, and you kind of you already
touched on this already.
But whenever you have thatthought, it questions your own.
You start to question your ownpersonality and your own.
Uh, you know your own morals,your own, you know ethical
principle system, but am I bad?
Am I a bad person?
Am I?
What the hell?
Am I suicidal?
(06:06):
Suddenly, like no, I'm not, I'mjust.
I just had a crazy thought.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
I'm not, I'm normal, I'm okay, just cruising on the
road I'm just cruising on theroad yeah and so I think that's
that's, that's that self-talk ofum paying attention to a
thought like that and it'sintrusive means it's it was not
invited in, you weren't drivingin like Ooh, let's just have a
really scary thought right nowthat freaks me out.
(06:33):
It was uninvited, it popped intoyour mind in one thing.
When those thoughts pop in,it's kind of like Whoa you're?
You might even have aphysiological reaction like a
bit of anxiety or a bit of likewhat the heck am I thinking?
And that's where you start anddo those things.
You said like hold on, this is.
(06:56):
You called it a crazy thought.
And then this is the importanceof this podcast.
So I'm now saying you can callthat an intrusive thought.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, correct the language a little bit.
There you go.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And I think that's the most powerful thing about
psychologists say, is using theterms that we do use in
psychology so that you canappropriately label what's going
on, versus using some of theterms that society has set up
that has the negativeconnotations and then so we
(07:29):
start to have shame andself-doubt and fear.
Versus saying, oh wait, that'san intrusive thought and people,
everybody experiences intrusivethoughts at some point.
And the difference is when anindividual starts to have
intrusive thoughts that somepoint and the difference is when
an individual starts to haveintrusive thoughts that are
really bothersome, repetitiveand very difficult to
(07:54):
distinguish.
You were able to go hold on,I'm not going to do that, I'm
not wanting to hurt myself oranybody else.
Wow, that was strange.
And you were able to, you know,collect yourself and, of course
, no urge to actually engage inthe behavior.
Yep, so those are.
That's like a self-analysis,and sometimes people may not
(08:18):
even have the ability to do that.
That thought may have justscared them and so that thought
sits there as a fear thoughtthat may repetitively kind of
come up over and over again forthem.
That's where it could lead tolike, boy, I really am starting
to get scared.
I would actually do somethinglike that one day.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Right, so like it repeats so often in their head
that it may become a reality.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
That they're fearful that this is something about me,
this is something that maybe Iactually desire, or this means
I'm really struggling withsomething and because of that
shame or that fear or thatself-doubt, they're not really
sharing that with anybody.
(09:04):
They're really hoarding,they're hiding that in secrecy.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Right.
So I guess my first question isIs there a difference between
having one or two singleintrusive thoughts versus these
here and there throughout, um,you know, the week or?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
throughout the month, throughout the year, and that
you're able to go whoa, okay, nourge, no desire to do that,
that was interesting, that wasstrange.
And you're able to redirectyour thought onto something else
.
Yeah, versus uh.
The other end, whereindividuals start, especially if
you have an anxiety disorder,it's not as easy to just go oh,
(10:05):
that was interesting, thatdidn't mean anything, that was
strange.
And redirect your brain into,oh, that has nothing to do with
my reality.
So an anxious brain, somebodywho has anxiety or depression,
their brain is not able to justshift like that.
Okay, there you go.
So all of a sudden, that thatthought, whatever that intrusive
(10:27):
thought is, uh, I'll give youanother example so listeners can
hear this uh, like just athought of I'm gonna, I what if
I hurt somebody?
In terms of of I'm in thekitchen and I see kitchen knives
oh my God, I'm walking with one, I'm trying to put it away.
Oh my gosh, what if I hurtsomebody?
Just walking with the knife Justwalking, trying to put the
(10:48):
knife back in the drawer, and soI think it's that fear thought
of oh gosh, why did I just thinkthat?
And so it's these reallynegative thoughts that an
individual again very important.
There's no urge, no history ofthat type of behavior.
It's coming out of the clearblue.
(11:11):
But when a person is anxious,they start to worry about that,
that that means something biggerfor them and they may repent,
they may avoid then or you know,I don't want to touch any
knives in the house, I don'twant to.
You know, I'm fearful that Iwould actually act on this
thought.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Right.
So so I guess the just the idea, just having an intrusive
thought it could lead tointrusive thought itself isn't a
disorder or anything.
It's natural Everyone.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
It's a symptom.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
It's a symptom.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yep, and then so it's a symptom when it becomes part
of other symptoms that becomeuncomfortable.
Sure, so it could be a symptomof trauma, ptsd.
Sure, of like trauma, ptsd,things, that these things that
(12:06):
intrusively pop up for you, thatare difficult and unwanted and
have a negative impact on howyou're functioning in that
moment, and they come often andthey're a real difficulty
redirecting, okay, uh, maybeeven distinguishing the reality
of them, like we're talkingabout, yeah, um, and so
everybody and just will havethese intrusive thoughts.
(12:29):
Yes, and when they become partof um, like if somebody came in,
they, they it's a part of abigger picture, of something
like anxiety, depression.
It's a difficulty reallycontrolling that.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Okay, so it's a symptom, right?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
It's a symptom for somebody who has like, who's
experiencing at a high rate okayso a symptom becomes like a
clinical term, okay for, uh,somebody who is experiencing
distress, okay, and that it's,it's bothersome, it's it's
impairing them in some way, okay.
So that's the differencebetween, like, a person who
(13:21):
every now and again has thisintrusive thought of like whoa
that was everybody has anintrusive thought uh, yes pretty
much everybody pretty mucheverybody that's.
The brain is kind of like thesefear thoughts okay the
difference is those individualsand go, that was a strange
thought, whoa, and then theyredirect and so somebody who
goes whoa, and then they havethat thought again, and then
(13:43):
later again, and then it becomesuh, what if I do this?
But I don't want to, it'stotally nothing, that has to do
with anything I've ever done inlife.
Does this mean I'm a bad person, um, for even having these
thoughts right?
And so that's when it becomesuncontrollable and that's where
(14:07):
um, coming in and just talking,usually people don't present for
that, they present for likepanic.
I'm feeling anxious, right, Ican't sleep at night, I'm having
difficulty relaxing, I'mfeeling down or depressed.
So eventually you start to beable to see other things that
(14:30):
become part of just impairingtheir everyday functioning and
causing them distress dayfunctioning and causing them
distress.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Right At what point, whenever you're looking at, say,
someone comes in and you'retalking to them and they have
the rumination or theseintrusive thoughts.
Where does your mind go, as faras like where, well, what could
this person be experiencing?
Or what should I be looking atto help this person?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Right, it's understanding that.
What do they believe about this?
Do they have an urge to dosomething like that?
A?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
true urge.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
A true urge.
So that's where somebody in ourfield would be necessary to
help somebody sort through this.
So we're talking today aboutindividuals who have intrusive
thoughts, who have absolutely.
They scare them, they'retotally against their
personality, their nature.
They don't have any desire tosteal something, it's more of a
(15:33):
oh my gosh.
It's really inconsistent withthe way they actually behave in
life.
That's why it's so devastatingthat these thoughts could pop up
, and so that's part of theassessment.
So it's an intrusive thoughtand it's something that you have
to understand, if there's any.
(15:55):
There are people out that seekbehavioral health, mental health
, that are struggling with urgesto engage in self-destructive
acts, right, who these thoughtsreally scare them, they feel a
(16:16):
lot of shame with them, theydon't talk about them and it's
creating so much anxiety becausethey don't understand why
they're having them Right.
So I'm so glad when anindividual starts to share some
of those in session, then I cantell them oh, okay, and I can
walk them through that and thenthey can understand it, and the
(16:40):
more they talk about theseintrusive thoughts, the more um
power that they can have overthem.
That's like kind of getting itoff your chest and understanding
it yeah, understanding yeahdemystifying it, labeling it,
and then it's like okay, uh, Ialso.
They'll also come up more.
If you're an anxious person andyou're having really anxious
(17:05):
like a period of time, extrastress, more fatigue, this is a
time when those fear thoughtsmay come up more often.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah, those factors will increase the chance of an
intrusive thought.
There you go, okay.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So then, giving people that education, they're
like, oh, that makes sense.
You know I don't always havethese, but yeah, when I'm
stressed out and I'm overwhelmedand I'm tired, I'm not eating
well, I'm not taking care ofmyself, I feel uptight.
Yeah, I tend to have way moreof those fear thoughts and they,
(17:39):
they come out of the blue, butthey happen like during that
time and then.
So I said, well, that that's agood sign to do a self-check,
that your anxiety is really high, that your intrusive thoughts
are increasing.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
right, so there'll be more intrusive thoughts
whenever someone's uh moreanxious or going through a
stressful time, but they couldhappen anytime.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Even in times of good .
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yes, that's the thing they're uninvited, you're not
preparing for them, you're notsaying you know, today I want to
definitely have this reallyscary thought or unpleasant, and
then so a lot of that itbecomes with vocalizing it,
sharing it to somebody who canhelp demystify it.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Right, like, you're not a bad person, you're not
crazy, you're okay.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Not at all.
Yeah, not at all.
So there's so many moreexamples.
We kind of stuck to some prettyextreme, like hurting somebody,
you know.
We kind of stuck to some somepretty extreme, you know, like,
yeah, you know, hurting somebody, or um, I think it was good
that, uh, we talked about thatbecause it's it's showing the,
the um that how, how big thesecan get yeah, the range of it,
(18:49):
the range um, and so it's it's.
There's so many other thingsthat are involved with that and
um, it's.
It's more about how do I talkabout it, how do I learn to
label it?
How do I um?
What can I do to if I'm havingthese?
(19:10):
How do I shift?
How do I?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
right, how do you shift?
Because you know, like youdon't really control your
thoughts, they kind of pop in asthey will and you can probably
influence the way you think alittle bit.
But for the most part the wayyou think is the way you think
and that's just the way it is,at least from my understanding,
From your understanding right.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And then, of course, because I do CBT cognitive
behavior therapy I would want tojust like totally reframe all
of that in terms of thisintrusive thought.
Yes, it's like that.
You're not in control of itbecause it's popping in there.
You're not doing it on purpose.
Yet now that you know what itis, you can label it.
(19:57):
You can see that there's such arange.
So anything that's an unwanted,almost like a what-if thought
that scares the crap out of you,that goes against your
personality or that you feellike you really want to hide or
you're shame about that's whenyou can start to go oh wait,
okay, I can label this, I cantell my brain what it is.
(20:17):
I can even this.
I can tell my brain what it is.
I can even file it.
I can say you know what?
That's an unnecessary, unwantedthought.
I'm going to create a filesystem in my brain that I'm
going to file that as anintrusive thought.
It's a waste of my time, it's awaste of my energy and I'm
going to put it in this file andI'm going to lock that in my
(20:39):
brain.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Right.
So if it does come up again,you know it goes back to that
file.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
You go back, you do the same thing of oh, there it
is again.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yep, I've been here before.
I've been here before Yep.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
There used to be something that they did in terms
of like thought stopping whereyou would try to just go, stop,
stop.
And it's kind of like it wasn'treally working because it's
like don't say that, Don't thinkof red, Don't say the color you
know.
All of a sudden, your brainwants to go red, red, red, red.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
So instead it's more about um having that kind of
empowerment of um I think evenbeing scared of it is what makes
it come on.
more it's like any kind ofanxiety, the more fear that's.
What keeps anxiety growing andmaintaining is the fear of it.
So once you're no longer scaredof these thoughts, you
understand where they're comingfrom, then you do have control
(21:34):
over them.
And the other thing is talkingabout them, reading about them.
So we can't cover every one ofthe intrusive thoughts here.
But going online and getting abook about intrusive thoughts,
anxiety, generalized anxietydisorder, OCD, kind of looking
(21:57):
at different things, you canstart to see the wide range of
what these thoughts look likeand people can start to say,
okay, oh, wow, I'm not the onlyone who has that fear.
When I'm holding a kitchenknife, I mean, wow, we are, you
know.
So it starts to um, peoplestart to feel like, okay, this,
this is, this, could be part ofthis anxiety and I'm not alone
(22:19):
in this Right, and there'streatment for this.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yep, you bring that up like the.
I'm not alone in this.
What's interesting is I see ina poll it was a meme, so it was
a picture of someone near CliffEdge and the title was what if I
jumped off?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
No.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I'm not going to off.
No, I'm not gonna do that.
I wouldn't do that lol that's aperfect right yeah, and I'm
like, oh okay, other people havethese wild, crazy intrusive
thoughts too.
At the time I wouldn't havesaid intrusive, but yeah, and
now.
That's a perfect example it ledme away from like, oh okay,
other people experienced this,Now I can kind of move on away
(23:00):
from it.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yes, and I can relate to others.
It doesn't mean that I'm a badperson.
And those are some of thequestions that right away I'll
tell my patient.
Right away I'll tell my patient.
(23:25):
Like the thought that the factthat the thought distresses you
this much already shows thatit's one of those intrusive
thoughts.
It's so upsetting to you thatyou're even thinking about it
shows me already that this is asign of anxiety.
This is, this does not haveanything to do with an urge or
an intent or a plan to actuallydo something like this right so
that alone can help people go.
(23:46):
Oh so, yes, that fits that.
That helps me understand that.
Um, that's why I'm, that's whyit scares me so much, because
there's absolutely no way Iwould do something like that.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
And for the people that think of those thoughts and
sticks in their head, there's alarger, probably a larger issue
at hand than just the thoughtitself.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
They're not able to, you know, so that's good for
people listening to the podcast.
This is a we're definitelytalking about.
You know, bigger issues herethat are probably getting a lot
of people, you know, doing a lotof self-awareness,
self-analyzing, and so I want tomake sure that remember, this
(24:30):
is a discussion for ourlisteners to engage in, and then
to make sure that you do somemore of your research on this.
If you feel like you'restruggling with this, definitely
seek out some mental health inyour area.
This is something that, if it'scoming on a lot, you don't want
to tackle this alone.
This is something where even aconversation like today is
(24:52):
something similar.
You could do with a therapistand start to work on healing and
understanding things like thisversus, you know, suffering
through them, and so I thinkthis was a really good talk
today and I want to thank all ofour listeners and thank you
Great, great, great questions.
(25:14):
I mean my brain's going and Iknow that we only have so much
time, so I know that this isanother.
You know, we'll definitelyrevisit this, because we didn't
even get into, like ruminationor OC obsessions and OCD type.
I mentioned those a bit, soit's already like where we're,
(25:34):
our brains, are starting to wantto talk about all the different
areas where a higher level orproblematic level of intrusive
thoughts could come into playand really cause some distress
in somebody's life.
So I just want to remindeverybody that this was a great
conversation.
This is not a replacement fortherapy.
(25:56):
This is a discussion, and so Idefinitely want you to seek out
your resources and seek support,and thank you for listening.
I want to thank our guest,harold, for joining us today and
just really having a stimulatedconversation about intrusive
thoughts.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, it's been great .
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
PS.
Intrusive thoughts are normal,but if you feel like acting on
one of these thoughts in a waythat could cause harm to
yourself or someone else, getmedical help immediately.
Thank you for listening.
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