REPLAY: Public health leadership in action, with Anjum Sultana

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Last week I talked about "Leadership Skills Every Public Health Professional Should Develop" and mentioned two episodes from 2020 where I sat down with two amazing guests to discuss leadership.

This week, I wanted to make sure you had a chance to listen to the second one of these episodes - with Anjum Sultana.

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In this episode, Sujani sits down with Anjum Sultana. Anjum is someone Sujani has known for a number of years and has interacted with via phone calls and messaging/email, but this was the first time they both "saw" each other (virtually), so it was a special conversation. Anjum’s advocacy and leadership work is also something that Sujani has been inspired by over the years.

The conversation with Anjum is not only jam-packed with inspiration and motivation to be a leader in public health but also weaves tangible first steps for all of us to take.

Public health needs many strong leaders to push agendas forward, and we hope that by sharing stories like that of Anjum's, you walk away feeling like you too can be a leader in public health.

You’ll Learn

• How Anjum defines leadership
• Whether she intentionally chose to become a leader in her space, or it naturally occurred
• A bit about the young Anjum, her first memory of thinking that she could be a leader, and how her dad was an inspiration to her, which has resulted in the work she does in her community
• Attributes of a good leader (skills to build on for anyone wanting to be a leader in their space), and skills Anjum wished she had gained early on
• Things students can focus on specifically while in school to set themselves up to become a strong leader
• Step-by-step how we can go from feeling passionate about a topic/issue/cause to taking incremental action that leads to change. 
• Whether leadership only comes from a management/senior-level role (hint: no it doesn’t)
• Whether leaders are born OR if leadership can be learned
• Challenges Anjum faces as a leader in her space
• A final example where Anjum showed that she is a leader in her space: she talks about her journey first authoring Canada’s First Feminist Recovery Plan.
  • It is the first nationally-focused one in the country and possibly the world
  • She encourages the PH SPOT community to read it, make it your own, and reach out to her should you be interested in taking action

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, public health is this incredible asset
to society, but it's ofteninvisible People.
When it's working well, no oneeven realizes it's there.
But when we need more dramaticinvestments or we're feeling the
burden of investments thathadn't happened in the past, now
bearing fruition like that lack, that's when people realize oh,

(00:24):
this is a crucially importantaspect of society.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to PH Spotlight, a community for you
to build your public healthcareer with.
Join us weekly right here, andI'll be here too.
Your host, sujani Siva from PHSpot.
Hey, what's up everyone?
Thank you for joining me todayon another episode of

(00:52):
PHSpotlight, a space for you andme and everyone else in public
health to share our stories andinspire each other.
My name is Sujani Siva, thehost of PHSpotlight, and I'm
here to help you build yourpublic health career.
Today on the show, I'm talkingabout leadership.
Once again, I started talkingabout leadership in public

(01:15):
health on episode 12 with NadiaAksher.
With that episode, I committedto bringing on more of our peers
to talk about this topic,because I wanted to ensure that
leadership is a skill that weconstantly think about building
on, as much as we think aboutbuilding our technical skills or
software skills, and I want tohave conversations with leaders

(01:39):
who are our peers, who are inpublic health and individuals I
feel that we can learn from andbe inspired by.
So today I'm talking to AnjamSultana.
We've known each other for anumber of years and have
interacted with each other overphone calls and virtually, but
this is actually the first timewe are kind of seeing each other

(01:59):
, virtually, of course, so Ifelt like it was a special
moment.
Of course, so I felt like itwas a special moment.
Recently named the 2020 GlobalWoman of Distinction by the
United Nations NGO Committee onthe Status of Women, anjum
Sultana is an internationallyrecognized advocate for
progressive public policies tocreate a more just and equitable

(02:22):
society.
Currently, anjum serves as theNational Director of Public
Policy and StrategicCommunications at YWCA Canada,
the nation's oldest and largestwomen-serving organization.
Anjum is also the first authoron Canada's first feminist
recovery plan, the firstnationally focused one in the

(02:45):
world.
She serves on the boards of theRegion Park Community Health
Centre, toronto EnvironmentalAlliance and the Council of
Agencies Serving South Asians.
Anjum is also a global shaperfor the Toronto Hub, which is
affiliated with the WorldEconomic Forum, a founding
advisor of Progress Toronto andserved as a Canadian delegate at

(03:08):
the 2019 G7 Youth Summit inParis, france, through the Young
Diplomats of Canada.
Anjum also sits on severalresearch, organizational and
policy advisory committees,including being a strategic
advisor for KimboCare, an onlineplatform to enable healthcare
access and reduce financialbarriers in global South nations

(03:29):
.
Anjum is also an accomplishedpublic speaker, who has
delivered keynote speeches,lectures, workshops and
participated in a number ofpanel discussions, and that's
also something that we talkabout in today's episode how
important that is as a leader.
And to add to the greataccomplishments she's had, anjum

(03:52):
also holds a Master of PublicHealth from the Dallalana School
of Public Health at theUniversity of Toronto.
She is also the founder ofMillennial Women in Policy, a
grassroots organization andcommunity of practice that
connects more than 3,.
A grassroots organization andcommunity of practice that
connects more than 3,000 youngwomen and non-binary people
working in policy across NorthAmerica and Europe, in civil

(04:12):
society, politics, privatesector and public service, and
since 2018, this group hashosted over 12 events in cities
across Canada.
So, as you can imagine, as anindividual that follows Anjum
quite closely on social media, Iam completely inspired, over
and over again, with all of thework that she does and the care

(04:35):
that she brings to thecommunities that she's involved
in, and so I felt like therecouldn't be a better person to
talk about leadership in actionthan with Anjum Sultana.
So, without further ado, here'sour conversation.
Hi Anjum, thank you so much forjoining us on the PH Spotlight
podcast.
I think this is our thirdattempt to get together, so I'm

(04:58):
super excited and welcome thisFriday morning.
Thank you, I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
I've been such a big fan of your work and the
platform and community we'vecreated, so thrilled and really
happy to be here today.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
Wonderful and yeah.
So we're going to be talkingabout a topic that I love
speaking to individuals like youespecially about, and it's
around leadership.
So I started this kind ofleadership type series.
I had Nadia Aksir on episode 12to talk about fueling your
leadership drive as a publichealth professional, because you

(05:34):
know we need very strongleaders to move public health
agendas forward, and I thinkit's a skill that we get very
little training in, and I don'tthink there are many discussions
around the topic or how tofoster great leaders at kind of
such a young age and at leastthat's what I've seen and you
can tell me if you thinkotherwise and so I've committed

(05:55):
to bringing people like yourselfon this podcast to speak about
leadership in a way to, you know, inspire and nudge people to
think about how they can beleaders in their communities and
area of work.
So I thought you know right offthe bat.
I want to ask you how do youdefine leadership?

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, this is a great question because sometimes it's
so, I think, nuanced anddifferent depending on who the
person is and you know the workthat they do, and different
depending on who the person isand you know the work that they
do.
I would say a lot of like myearly realizations of leadership
was thinking about my you knowthe way my dad kind of
contributed to his community,his country, here in Canada, and

(06:38):
so he is a trained electrician.
But when he initially came tothis country, to Canada, he
faced challenges and you know hewas able to rise, you know,
from those challenges and was,you know, able to secure a job
that allowed him to, you know,support his family and support
his ambitions and support hiswork.

(06:59):
But he didn't.
He figured out like it's notenough that you're successful,
you have to ensure that you giveback to the communities that
you're part of.
And you know seeing hisleadership, whether it's being
involved with his professionalassociation or doing what he can
to ensure that people who areinternationally trained could

(07:21):
have a footing here in Canadawhen they landed.
Or, you know, doing mentorshipwith Skills for Change and
giving back.
So I think my earliest likerealizations of leadership were
from my dad and you know, at thecore of it is this, is this
commitment to community.
So that's one of the big thingsI see, and then I think, kind

(07:41):
of building on that it's aboutrecognizing where there's gaps,
where things are not working,when things are not fair or just
, and looking towards not justyourself but looking to the
community of peers around youand figuring out what could be
done to change that and theninspiring people to act.

(08:03):
So it's less about a title or,you know, a certain position
that you hold, but for me,leadership is about a mindset
that's always seeking how do weall achieve our highest
potential?
And so that's kind of how I'vekind of embodied or internalized
what leadership means and trymy best to practice in the

(08:25):
different parts of life that I'min.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
And so that's interesting that you've seen
your dad kind of you know, bethe role model for you to take
on such like great leadershiproles in the community.
I mean, like for me, I see thework that you do, I've been
following you for a number ofyears and all of the recognition
that you've gotten, I think isa testament to the great leader

(08:50):
that you've been in ourcommunity and, you know,
uplifting others along the way.
Just for our listeners to kindof hear of some of these
recognitions, you've been namedas 2020 Global Woman of
Distinction by the UN NGOCommittee on the Status of Women
, which is phenomenal.
Recently, you were nominatedfor RBC's Top 25 Canadian

(09:11):
Immigrants Award.
I mean, just being nominated isalso mind-blowing.
You serve on a number of boardsand you've served as a Canadian
delegate at the 2019 G7 YouthSummit.
Delegate at the 2019 G7 YouthSummit.
I'm curious did you kind of youknow seeing your father play
such a big role in the communityof uplifting others?

(09:32):
Did you tell yourself you knowI'm going to be a leader?
Was that an intentional choiceor did it naturally happen?

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah.
So I think, like I've alwaysbeen drawn to just solving
problems and and working incollaboration with others, and
so I would say, like, even veryearly on in like elementary
school, I think there was like aposition, um, you know how
sometimes elementary schoolshave like parent teacher
associations or parent teacherkind of committees yeah, um, I

(10:01):
think there was role, I want tosay in grade five or grade six,
where you know there's anopportunity for a student to be
part of that.
And I remember I was justreally excited by that.
Like it seemed interesting,like, oh, like you know,
different groups of people likeparents, teachers and students,
like what could we possibly dotogether?

(10:21):
So I was intrigued, I wascurious by it and then, once I
started doing that, I in manyways just fell in love with that
idea of service.
You know, I was someone who, youknow, like school, I like to
learn, but I was very, veryadamant that learning is not
enough if you don't apply it.
And community service oftenallowed that opportunity and it

(10:44):
also, I think, just likeactivated another part of
learning.
You know that was above andbeyond just books and classrooms
, it was about being incommunity.
So I think, I think that's kindof where it started and then
it's been something you know,throughout my you know school
years, going into highereducation, like undergrad and

(11:08):
grad school.
It always added, I would say,like a flavor or a different
perspective to my life, and Ithink it just made everything
more just, tangible, beyond thetheory and rhetoric.
It was something I often tell alot of young people and you
know, even for myself it's beenquite true, like I learned more

(11:29):
from my peers as well as like myoutside of classroom
engagements than just slowly.
School like school wasessential for the skills
development.
But to actually practice, thatthat's that's where, uh, my
extracurriculars, my um service,uh, that's that's where I got
more um of the practical,practical skills yeah, and, and

(11:53):
you said, um, this first.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
uh, I guess exposure to this sort of leadership role
was in elementary school, wouldyou say that's the first memory
you have of thinking okay, likeI think I want to be a leader, I
want to contribute to mycommunity.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
I think so, I think so.
I think it was probably like inthreads, like even before that,
but I think that was like myfirst kind of taste of it or
experience of it, and in manyways I feel like I've never
looked back it and in many waysI feel like I've never looked
back.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
And were you the same Anjum you are now when you were
younger?
What I mean by that is I meanlike you, you're well spoken,
you represent the community wellat numerous stages, like was
that kind of the role that youwere playing even at a young age
?

Speaker 1 (12:40):
I yeah, well, you know one thing.
You know I was talking to afriend who's known me since
undergrad and then I was talkingwith another friend who's known
me since elementary school,like the last few weeks, and
they're like you know what's sofunny about you and Jim, like
you're always so excited andjust enthusiastic about life and
just you know, very, justoptimistic, and it was, it was.

(13:06):
You know I was like, oh, Iguess I haven't really changed,
so it's been something, I think,like at the core, and so I
think I think that energy andenthusiasm and optimism I think
has served me well, because I'mvery so.
I'll say, you know, I grew upin Scarborough and one of the
things I came to know once Iwent into university is just the
inequities across the city but,also how certain parts of the

(13:27):
city are represented and I feltyou know there was an unfairness
in how different parts of thecity were represented.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
And.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
I think partially it's because of the demographics
and people having stereotypesand not really understanding the
systemic issues.
And so I've always seen myselfas someone who wants to make
sure the full picture is seen,and so I think that's part of my
drive around, like tellingstories or telling perspectives

(13:59):
so people get the full picture,because I think oftentimes there
is misrepresentation thathappens, or the full picture
because I think oftentimes thereis misrepresentation that
happens or the full picture isnot captured.
And I'll say also I think youknow, as a young woman, as a
racialized woman, as a Muslimwoman, I've seen how society,
when there is stereotypes andmisrepresentation, the dramatic
effects it could have on acommunity wide level,

(14:22):
systemically for differentgroups.
Mm, hmm.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
No, that's a good example and maybe we can talk
that, talk about that a littlebit on a community-wide level,
systemically for differentgroups.
No, that's a good example andmaybe we can talk about that a
little bit.
So, if we're thinking, okay, sothis episode is going to come
out in October when students,let's say, are starting out
their MPHs and they're extremelypassionate about understanding
the inequities in theircommunities and they've got the
drive, they've got the passion,they have that optimism, but

(14:48):
then they're stuck at takingaction right, and so how do you
break through that?
And what is that kind of likeone thing they can do?
Or are there certain skillsthey need to brush up on, like
someone who's just stuck in thataction path, like what can they
do?

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah.
So I often tell people like thebiggest step, I think, is just
read, inform yourself on theissues, and it can be reading
blogs, it can be readingnewspaper articles, it could be
listening to podcasts such asthis.
I think one of the first stepsand and sometimes this is
probably why people feelchallenged to take the next step

(15:28):
is they feel they don't knowenough.
So do your part, make sure youinform yourself.
You are bright, you aretalented, and sometimes it's
just reading a primer on theissue, and then you'll feel more
comfortable.
And when you feel morecomfortable, you'll be more
willing to go out and do more.
And I think the next step thenis to connect.
Connect with like-minded people.

(15:48):
I think there's nothing thatbeats, you know, having someone
who is excited about a topicthat you're excited about, and
you can just have those likefree flowing conversations and I
think, naturally, what comesout of those interactions is,
hey, like could we do somethingabout this?
That's the power of collectiveaction you can like.

(16:12):
Change can kind of happen ifpeople do individual actions,
but the most effective change iswhen people come together.
So I think I would say ifpeople are passionate about a
topic and want to take action.
See, is there an organizationthat's already working on the
issue and, you know, reach outand say, hey, how can I do my
part, how can I contribute?

(16:33):
And I'll say it's throughadvocacy movements like.
I was involved briefly withdoctors for refugee health care
as a nonical person, I was as anundergrad and as a public
health student, and I gotinvolved with other campaigns
looking at increasing access tohealth care coverage for all
people in Ontario and Canada.

(16:55):
So we know we have health carecoverage in Canada but sometimes
, depending on immigrationstatus, not everyone gets access
to the full set of services,and so that is where I learned
how to write my first pressrelease, for example or learned
other key skills.
That I think has molded me towhere.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
I am now, and when you reflect back on some of the
projects that you've beeninvolved in or like the path
that you've taken, are therecertain skills that you wish
that you you had gained a littlebit earlier so that you could
have kind of steered your pathor accelerated it a little bit
yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
So you know, as someone who did a public health
degree and I know many of theaudience here is doing that or
is in that field you know publichealth is this incredible asset
to society, but it's ofteninvisible People when it's
working well, no one evenrealizes it's there.
But when we need more dramaticinvestments or we're feeling the

(17:58):
burden of investments thathadn't happened in the past, now
, fruition like that, that lack,that's when people realize oh,
this is a crucially importantaspect of society, and so I
think one of the things I wouldbe really encouraged if people
learned more is things likemedia advocacy.
How do we ensure and bevigilant that the importance of

(18:22):
public health is not forgotten?
So right now, for example,we're in a global pandemic and I
am hopeful that we will be ableto surpass this and, you know,
build back better, which is therhetoric right now.
But what I'm fearful of is thatpeople will forget and we may be
in a position where we as asociety are more vulnerable, and

(18:43):
the thing is, you know, there'scertain communities that will
be more vulnerable because ofhistorical lack of investments
in public health or the socialdeterminants of health.
So you know, the burden is notgoing to be felt equally and I'm
afraid that we will forget.
So I think one of the keythings is how do we build that
media advocacy, literacy andskill set.

(19:04):
So that's something I reallywant to see more of, and I think
you know part of that is how doyou write an op ed, how do you
engage the media?
How do you do a good interview?
How do you make informationaccessible so people feel that
they're understanding what we'resaying as members of public
health?

Speaker 2 (19:27):
what we're seeing as members of public health.
I don't know about you, but Iknow I have probably never
gotten training in those areasof media advocacy or literacy or
, you know, writing op-eds in myMPH.
Did you at all get any sort oftraining?

Speaker 1 (19:39):
I would say formally no, but I'm very glad that I was
involved in some of the socialmovements and kind of organizing
I mentioned, because I was ableto learn some of those key
skills Like, for example, youknow how do you influence
government, how do youparticipate in government
committees.
You know, as residents ofdifferent provinces and

(20:01):
territories, that is part of ourright as residents of this
country, but we often, I thinkthat civic literacy is so
crucial for that change, makingthat leadership, and so I think
that's also a key element, notjust like the policies, but like
actually how do you make thosepolicies happen, like the actual
navigation of the political andpolitical machinery.

(20:24):
I think that's crucial.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Mm hmm, so I heard optimism, media advocacy, kind
of writing skills, speakingskills to give good interviews
and kind of civic literacy,would you say.
There are other additionalattributes of a good leader.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah.
So I think at the core of it isbeing able to listen.
I think if you have membersthat you're part, if you're part
of a collective or a team, andevery single person has value
that they bring to the table.
But if people feel that if theyspeak they won't be heard, or,

(21:07):
when they do, you know, have thecourage to speak, that their
ideas will be dismissed, thenit's as if their contribution
was never made in the firstplace.
So I think the most importantpiece is listening and making
sure people feel valued andheard, because that's ultimately

(21:28):
, from my humble perspective,where you'll make the best and
most effective intervention orchange or or contribution as a
collective.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, that's a good point, because I think sometimes
leadership is equated withmanagement, and there's a myth
that you can only be a leader ifyou're sitting at kind of like
the senior level tables.
But I believe that that doesn'thave to happen, like it's not
synonymous Would you kind ofagree Like.
Does leadership happen only bythose in senior level positions?

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Absolutely not.
In fact, I think perhaps themost effective leadership is
when people don't necessarilyhave that position or title but
they're making that change, andI think part of it is also that
influencing.
So management in some ways likethe piece I hear of it is also
that influencing.
So management in some ways,like the piece I hear from it is
telling people what to do,whereas leadership is people

(22:26):
telling you what they want to do.
So it kind of reverses that andthere is more ownership that
people take over the work thatthey want to contribute and the
ideas they want to bring forward.
And so what you're essentiallydoing, what I would think as a
leader, is you're eithercreating other leaders or you're
just giving people the space todemonstrate their, to give

(22:50):
their full contribution, andyou're more a facilitator than I
guess, in some ways, the persontelling people exactly what
they need to do.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Here's another sort of myth that I wonder, like,
what your thoughts are.
Do you think leaders are born,like the famous saying, or do
you think it can be learned?
Like can leadership be learned?

Speaker 1 (23:16):
I think, absolutely, leadership can be learned.
I think it's something whereevery single person has a
contribution to make and I thinkyou know there's such diverse
leaders, right, leadership doesnot fit like a singular mold and
I think personalities, right,like people, of course have
different personalities anddifferent ways they want to
engage, but those are all validtypes of leadership.

(23:38):
I think what's what's crucial,and sometimes what is the
challenge, is leadership skillsare often contextual and people
don't have the ability topractice them or don't have
exposure.
So I think a lot about, I think, what was really fundamental to
my learning and education,especially through elementary

(23:58):
school, middle school, highschool, was having the
opportunity to do things outsideof the classroom.
I was lucky in the sense that,you know, we had some
extracurricular opportunities.
You know, having said that, Irealized when I went to
university that there were stilldisparities in what access I
had compared to other peers indifferent high schools.

(24:20):
And this is just in Scarborough, so I can imagine across the
city, across the country, it'seven more different.
But I think part of it iscontextual.
If people don't have access toopportunities or exposure, then
that will limit people's fullleadership development.
But I think, yeah, life teachesus, but then also all these

(24:43):
other exposures to interestingprograms and opportunities.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
So you gave us this example that you just spoke
about, and then you talked aboutthe early example in elementary
school.
Being part of that committee ofparents, teachers and students,
Can you share with ourlisteners some other examples
where you showed that leadershipwithin your community?
I think it'll be nice forpeople to just kind of hear

(25:08):
these examples and the stepsthat you took.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah.
So I'll give one example, andthis was during my master's in
public health program, sohopefully this is relevant to a
lot of young people and peoplelistening.
So one of the things.
So I did my master's in publichealth at the University of
Toronto a couple years ago and Iremember thinking, wow, like

(25:34):
you know, I felt very luckybecause, you know, I grew up in
the city and it's been home fora while and I was really excited
to go to school.
But I noticed that we didn'ttalk enough about things like
immigration or race and racism.
And it was surprising to me,given that, you know, the city
of Toronto is so diverse and meand my peers, we were really

(25:58):
curious by this.
And, uh, there was anopportunity.
So every year, our, our programhas something called a
student-led conference, and sothe year, so it's a two-year
program.
So my second year, um, me and mypeers were like, oh, let's,
let's use this opportunity, thisplatform, to actually talk
about racism as a public healthissue, um, and actually

(26:19):
essentially complement oureducation in the public health
faculty with this other realm.
And perhaps, maybe our hope was, this will inspire perhaps,
more active engagement in thisissue in the rest of our public
health education, and so it wasa two-day conference.
We had, I think, over 300people attend over the two days

(26:41):
and it was a really great eventand people just felt really glad
to have these conversations andto learn about the scholarship
but also the proxy.
So one of the things we did waswe didn't just want to have,
like, researchers come in andtalk that was crucial and
important but we also wanted toconnect with people that apply

(27:02):
this research in localcommunities, whether it's
community health centers who docommunity-based research,
whether it's other types ofhealth and health equity
organizations in the city, andso that was really great because
we were able to, you know,bring together academia and also
community-based initiatives.
So that was really reallywonderful.

(27:29):
And then, you know, fast forwarda couple months, there was an
opportunity to actuallyestablish a course that talked
about these issues.
And, you know, fast forward acouple more months and it got
established.
And I think part of whathappened was the conference gave
students more confidence butalso understanding about how

(27:50):
critical this is in oureducation, and then they
galvanized and organized to callfor such a course, and I'm
really glad that we saw thatkind of journey, and you know,
it doesn't always happen thatway, but I think it also taught
me that sometimes people justneed to know why something is
important, and then naturally,that will create the opportunity

(28:13):
for them to become champions ofthat work.
So I think that was a reallyhelpful and hopeful example, and
I think what it showed me isalso the power of students.
Right, sometimes you feel likeif we're students in certain
programs you can't rock and vote, but the thing is it's all
about how you message the actionyou want to see, but also the

(28:33):
power of you know you don't haveto go it alone.
Bring different people to thetable who can also advocate for
that.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
That's such a perfect example because it really
touches on the tangible stepsthat you provided earlier on in
our conversation, where you saidyou know, when you identify
that something isn't going well,sit with that thought, talk
about it, inform yourself.
And it sounds like you then gottogether with your peers who
are also feeling the same way.
You kept talking about theproblem and then brainstormed

(29:03):
this idea and then, like, Iguess the products of that was
evidently this conference thatcreated more interest in the
topic and then the course right,so like between your peers and
you, kind of brainstorming andbeing able to run that

(29:25):
conference in between.
What sort of steps did you haveto take?
Did you bring this up with acommittee at the school?
What are some initial steps youhad to take as a group?

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, I think sometimes a challenge,
especially when you want to doinstitutional change, is just
even understanding how theinstitution works and where
decisions get made.
So I was really grateful thatwe had faculty members who were
champions of the work and, youknow, essentially aligned and as
allies of this work, and sothat gave us insight into, like

(29:58):
what would be some of theprocess and procedures.
And then I think part of it wasjust making a compelling case
talking about in differentfaculties outside of Canada.
This was, like you know, partof the curriculum, so doing our
research.
Part of it was alsodemonstrating the groundswell of
support.
So we did a bit of a letterwriting campaign, if you will.

(30:20):
So you know a big joint letterand different members of the
student body that signed on andI think also we tried to expand
it to alumni.
So trying to figure out otherpeople who would be supporters
and then being relentless right,it wasn't going to be easy, it
wasn't going to be hard, so wecouldn't abandon midway.
And being relentless right, itwasn't going to be easy, it
wasn't going to be hard, so wecouldn't abandon midway.

(30:41):
And, you know, doing our bestto see it through.
And the thing is, sometimesthese things take a very, very
long time.
It does take energy.
It does, you know, take timeand you know definitely want to
let people know it's okay totake time and space for yourself
, because burnout is real andyou know, to protect people's
energies and that's why it's socrucial to do it in a group, so

(31:03):
then it's not all on you and theburden is more equitably shared
, but I think part of it.
Those were some of the stepsthat we took, and then also
talking about the success, orcelebrating it or acknowledging
it, so people know it happened.
Yeah, and then people becomemore ready to fight for it when

(31:26):
there's potential things toremove that contribution or, you
know, just to protect it.
So I think you know with anychange you have to be vigilant.
But part of it is justsocializing and making sure
people are aware that evenexists right.
So kind of going back to what Iwas saying about public health,
just like demonstrating it'snot just demonstrating its
impact but communicating aboutit, so people also kind of take

(31:50):
it on and hold on to it andprotect it.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, I think that's so important the celebrating the
wins and the successes, and itjust reminded me like you do
that so well and, if you haven'theard it enough, it's very
inspiring, at least for me liketo see kind of all of the things
that you're working on and thenyou're so good at sharing it
within all of your social mediachannels and it truly does

(32:15):
inspire people.
So thank you for doing that andthank you for saying that.
That's an important part of thestep, because if you don't show
, if you're only showing all ofthe you know, barriers that you
face and all the challenges, andyou don't show the success,
people can't kind of reflect andsay, okay, maybe I can also do
this and maybe I can createchange in my community.

(32:36):
Challenges as a leader is Idon't know if you want to use
this one as an example to sharesome of those challenges you
faced, or maybe there's a betterexample but what are some
things that you've come acrossthat you had to, you know, fight
and overcome?

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah.
So I think the biggest thinghas been imposter syndrome,
because it's something where youknow all people have self doubt
.
But sometimes if you're, youknow if you're part of an
underrepresented group, that'spart of you know, kind of in a
leadership role or in a morehigh profile position, then

(33:15):
people you know in implicit waysperhaps, or in definitely more
cohort ways, yeah, you feel asense of exclusion or not
feeling welcomed, or finding notbeing appreciated.
And I'll say, like you know,very frankly, as a younger woman

(33:36):
, as a woman of color, as ayounger woman, as a woman of
color, as someone who doesn't, Iguess, fit the traditional mold
of a public policy professionalin Canadian advocacy circles,
you know, I'll say, the firstcouple months in my current role
I was like, hmm, why does thisfeel different?

(33:57):
And I realized part of it is,yeah, I was not seeing that
sense of community.
I had made a pivot from more, Iwould say, traditional research
work or applied research todoing more public policy,
government relations, strategiccommunications.
And so I was like, hmm, youknow, I kind of took a look at

(34:18):
like, how did I deal with suchfeelings before?
And I realized like for me, atthe core of it was community
right, like, yeah, havingnothing, nothing beats like.
The fact of the matter is, noone knows, as soon as they wake
up in the morning, or, you know,as soon as they arrive in a
role, all the different nuancesto it.
But the way they learn, partlythrough experience, but partly

(34:41):
also with speaking with theirpeers, uh, bouncing ideas off of
each other, sharing, sharingperspectives and insights, and
that knowledge sharing is socrucial.
And so I was.
I was, you know what, like, I'malways the type of person if I,
if I don't see somethingworking, yeah, I'm like trying
to figure out, okay, how do Ifill the gap, or how can I
contribute, how can I plug in?

(35:01):
And, um, I realized, you know,I was seeking something that was
about, uh, professionaldevelopment, but also just
professionally supporting eachother, creating that support
network, if you will, and sothat was the inspiration behind
creating, uh, millennial womenin policy.
Yes and uh, so it started inoctober 2018.

(35:22):
So it, I think, uh, yeah,hopefully, by the time listeners
listen to this, it'll be twoyears and over.
You know, in many ways, a shorttwo years.
The network, um, which is onlinecommunity practice, has grown
from, you know, just a couple,you know, dozen people to now

(35:43):
over 3,000 folks from acrossNorth America and Europe,
primarily in Canada, becausethat's where I'm based, and it's
been a place where people canshare job postings, share
insights, intelligence.
You know what does it mean whenparliament is doing this and
where are opportunities toinfluence, and it's just a place

(36:05):
for people to connect um, andso it's been.
It's been um really great and Ithink you know I was speaking
earlier about some of thechallenges.
I'll say, like that group hasbeen so essential to my growth
but, I think, for the growth ofso many people who are
experiencing that sense ofimposter syndrome.
And the fact of the matter is weare so crucially needed in so

(36:28):
many different spaces.
And so I always tell myself youknow, what do I bring to the
table?
I bring, of course, my skills,my expertise, but I also, I
think, because I'm always tryingto stay grounded in community,
I also bring that perspective tothe table in ways that I think
people who don't have the sameexperiences as me would not, and

(36:51):
so in some ways, I'm able tobring perhaps more to the table
than someone who may have nothad those same experiences.
So I think that's, that's aninternal challenge and I think a
lot of people face that indifferent ways.
But that's been just kind of abit of my journey in that, and I
think the other piece is aboutleadership and responsibility.

(37:12):
You know, I feel like I thinkbecause of my upbringing, I was
mentioning my dad and the way hekind of inspired me, always
wanting to figure out like whatis the best way to serve.
And you know, really I thinkthis last year I've been
evaluating how I want to show upin the world and how I want to
contribute, to be the mosteffective, but also think about

(37:35):
balance and all the differentaspects of my life.
So I think that's somethingalso I'm kind of thinking about
and going on a journey about.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Maybe I'll just quickly say that that group that
you have of millennial women inpolicy, it's phenomenal.
They're such a well engagedgroup.
I've been able to fortunatelybe part of that as well and
really took out quite a bit ofgreat stuff.
And on the on the point ofimposter syndrome, thank you for
bringing that up.
It's nice to hear even someonelike you is also dealing with it

(38:09):
on a daily basis.
And then you mentioned, youknow, young women of color have
possibly more imposter syndrome,especially young people.
I think when they want to seethemselves as leader they can be
discouraged by their age maybewhen they're sitting at tables
or they want to approach tableswhere there's tables where

(38:29):
there's more experienced publichealth professionals.
How do you kind of deal withthat?
Or what sort of advice wouldyou give to younger listeners
who are thinking you know, I'dlike to be a leader in this
space because I know I cancontribute, but I'm not feeling
so confident that I couldpresent myself in front of more

(38:50):
established individuals.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
I think, something that's been really I'm taking to
heart, and I remember one of myfriends in undergrad had this
like saying, yeah, her name'sNusha and her her saying was and
I think she saw this somewhereor something that she talked
about a few times with me whichis preparation is or sorry, no,
no, no.
I think there's so manydifferent opportunities that can

(39:23):
come into our life to make animpact or influence, and part of
the way that you can leveragethat opportunity is if you're
prepared and so, kind of goingback to what I was saying about
comfort levels and just feelingsecure, part of it is just I
personally, I'll say my part isreading up on an issue and
making sure I understand thedifferent perspectives, and you
know I try to push myself like Iwant to be the most prepared

(39:45):
person in a room, just because Iwant to make sure that I can
ask the right questions if Ineed to, you know, push a point
forward.
But also, if a question isasked of me, I have answers and
if not, there's always going tobe times when you won't know the
answer right then and there.
But what do you do?
You kind of go back and take alook at that and prepare

(40:06):
yourself for the next time orfollow up with that person.
So I think for me, preparationhas been essential, you know, on
a daily basis, trying to beprepared for the different
things that come in my day, butalso for for the longer term
thing.
So I try to take my free timeto engage.
So for me, I find, like thedifferent issues and topics I'm

(40:26):
passionate about like somethingI want to read and learn about.
So I kind of go naturally wheremy curiosity takes me and I
think the other piece andhopefully I've kind of I may
have mention this a few times,but I try to also engage with
like-minded peers so then I canunderstand the other aspects and
I think that's sometimes thefastest way to learn.

(40:48):
You can go out and readsomething, but you know, having
a half an hour conversation withsomeone who kind of does that
on a daily basis, active on anissue, you'll know so much more
about the nuances and insights.
So I think that's something, anissue.
You'll know so much more aboutthe nuances and insights.
So I think that's something.
I think also, yeah,communication is a very
important skill.
I think I would, you know, if Icould, you know, highlight that

(41:12):
as a skill that graduate schoolshould like invest in.
I would say, absolutely Notjust written skills.
Written skills are, of course,important, course important, but
you know a lot of influencingand a lot of change happens at
the conversation level, yeah, um, so being able to be persuasive
and share your point of view, Ithink probably what also comes,
what helps with that type ofinfluencing or change making, is

(41:36):
also thinking aboutstorytelling.
So I think data and statisticsare crucial and critical for any
type of evidence-informeddecision-making, but
storytelling actually reallyshares the impact that will be
felt on the ground.
So I think someone who's ableto kind of bring those two
different elements to the tablewill be more effective in their

(41:57):
work.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
You said I like to be the most prepared person in the
room.
I love that and, yeah, I thinkjust being able to pitch your
ideas is such a critical skill.
I like to tell people that it'salmost like we need to learn,
if not take, some of the skillsfrom the business industry you

(42:22):
know about, like making a pitch,selling our idea, because
you're always in that position,whether you're speaking to your
team or people at a, you know,senior management level.
If you want to see action insome of the ideas that you're
bringing forward, you need to beable to tell a persuasive story

(42:42):
, you need to be able to pitchthat to somebody and you need to
be able to sell the idea.
So communication I think very,very crucial.
I kind of just wanted to end offwith talking about one of one
of your favorite projects, ormaybe I might ask you to speak
specifically about one of them.

(43:03):
You recently authored Canada'sfirst feminist recovery plan and
, from what I've read, it's thefirst nationally focused one in
the country and possibly in theworld.
Just congratulations on thatfirst, and can you speak a bit
about that kind of journey andwhat led you to possibly like be

(43:29):
the lead author on this?

Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, so thank you.
It's something that hasdefinitely been taking up quite
a bit of time over the lastnumber of weeks and it's been
really great to see theengagement it's been getting.
So I speak so it came out ofthe work that I do at the YWCA
Canada, which is the largest andoldest gender equity

(43:51):
organization, and so during thispandemic, a lot of our YWCA's
were still open, they were stilldelivering essential services
like housing and shelterservices and child care.
And you know, we were hearingfrom our colleagues on the
ground that they're reallyseeing this pandemic impact

(44:12):
women and non-binary peopledifferently, like it wasn't, you
know, a uniform impact of thispandemic, especially, I would
say, the economic impacts aswell as the social impacts.
And so we were at ourorganization figuring out how to
bring those stories to theforefront, and so we had this

(44:33):
virtual series we created calledgender equity during a pandemic
, and we were trying tounderstand what was happening on
the ground and just, you know,telling that story.
And then for us, we recognizethis is the recession that we're
currently in and will beexperiencing for the next little

(44:54):
while.
This was different.
This was something that hadnever before happened, truly in
the history of the country.
You know, not even you know,including the fact that this is
an unprecedented global crisis.
It was actually impacting womenmore in terms of the job losses
, in terms of the reduction inhours, in terms of potentially

(45:16):
stopping labor marketparticipation for women
altogether because of unpaidcare work, for example, like
taking care of children, orhousehold duties, or elder care
and you know, recent statisticssay that in April of this year,
the women's labor marketparticipation dropped to levels

(45:36):
not seen since the mid 1980s.
And so we were like, okay, sowe know that we have a problem
on our hand.
What is the solution?
And so we recently saw that inmid-April, the state of Hawaii
actually released their feministeconomic recovery plan, and we
were so inspired by it, and sothey had a plan for the state of

(45:57):
Hawaii and for us, because wework in nine provinces and two
territories.
We were like, looking at that,we're like, ok, what would this
look like in Canada?
We're a different country, wehave a different context and
just this diversity ofgeographies and populations.
And so we kind of put our headstogether and, in partnership
with the Institute for Genderand the Economy, we figured out

(46:21):
what would be in our plan, ourset of recommendations and in
many ways, you know my publichealth training was essential
for this, because when we lookat this crisis, it's if we
invested in the socialdeterminants of health, we would
be in a different spot.
That means like income security, better working conditions,
housing for all, and so in manyways that is like the security

(46:42):
better working conditions,housing for all and so in many
ways, that is like the backboneof the set of recommendations,
and since we launched in the endof July, we've seen incredible
update, in fact, just the otherday.
So we're right now in the latepart of summer, a sitting member
of provincial parliament in thelate part of summer, a sitting
member of provincial parliamentin the province of Ontario took

(47:04):
a look at our plan and was like,oh, we need to do this, we need
to do this for Ontario, and shewrote an op-ed.
Her name is MPP Jill Andrew,and so she's official
opposition's women's critic.
So it's been really interestingto see elected officials take
this, and that was our hope, butto also see that they are
championing this.
So it's been really interestingto see elected officials take
this, and that was our hope, butto also see that they are
championing this.

(47:24):
So it's not just civil societypushing this forward.
We've also had businesses reachout to us and talk to us about
you know they've seen theimpacts on small business owners
and banks reach out and youknow asking like what can we do?
How can we supportunderrepresented business owners
, for example, women and Black,indigenous and racialized

(47:47):
business owners?
So it's been really interestingto see.
But I think you know people cantalk about the problems but if
you bring solutions, especiallyin a time of such turmoil,
people will appreciate that andpeople are willing to try.
It's not going to be 100% allthe time, but it's going to get
us towards the goal that we want, which is an inclusive recovery
, a recovery that doesn't leaveanyone behind and to make the

(48:10):
economy work for everyone.
So yeah, that's kind of beenour journey.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Well, first off, thank you for putting this
forward for the country, and itsounds like you're very hopeful,
and I am too about kind of thenext steps and more and more
people discovering this.
Maybe just I know we're sort ofcutting close to our time with
you, so thank you for stickingaround for this long.
Just quickly, what are somenext steps you're kind of hoping

(48:38):
to take with this project thatyou've led to?
Really, you know, bring it infront of the people, the
decision makers, thepolicymakers in the next little
while.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah, so great question.
So I'm a big proponent ofmulti-sectoral engagement.
So not just civil society, butthe public service, the
corporate sector and otherplayers in society labor pushing
ideas forward together.
So that's kind of what we'reworking on figuring out the
coalition to bring this forwardand to encourage more action.

(49:12):
I've sent it to all the membersof parliament and have sent
this to the Prime Minister'soffice and the Minister of
Finance's office, so maybe it'llbe old news by them.
But just a couple of days agothis week they announced
Canada's first woman as aMinister of Finance, christia

(49:33):
Freeland.
So I think she's talked a lotabout a green recovery, but also
talked about the importance ofunderstanding the gendered
impacts of COVID-19.
So I'm hopeful that on September23, so we'll see the they'll be
announcing, you know, some ofthe framework for an initial
economic recovery plan forCanada and the speech from the

(49:55):
throne.
So my goal would be to makesure that a feminist economic
recovery plan and ourrecommendations show up in some
shape or form in that.
So that would be, you know, myhope.
But also, what I'm starting tosee is our plan.
It was definitely federallyfocused, but there's
recommendations for all ordersof government, so I'm starting

(50:15):
to reach out to cities,municipalities, to see how we
can influence their recoveryplan.
Out to cities, municipalities,to see how we can influence
their recovery plan.
So for us you know we say thisvery clearly in our plan we
cannot hope to even have anytype of recovery economic
recovery if we don't put women,two-spirit and gender diverse
people at the core.
So I'm hoping that key messageresonates and people take heed

(50:37):
of that.
So that's what's next andpeople take heed of that.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
So that's what's next , Nice One.
Last question If individualsare interested in the recovery
plan, of course we'll link it sothey can give it a read.
But are there any opportunitiesthrough the YWCA for
individuals to contribute theirskills or time or get involved
in any way?

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Oh, my God, this is such a great question.
So definitely, I will hopefullyshare my email address so
people can reach out directly,but we want people to take the
plan and make it their own.
So read through the planthere's eight different pillars.
See what resonates with you andwrite an op-ed to your local
paper.
Email your elected officials,contact your institution to see

(51:19):
how you can take on some ofthese recommendations and, if
you reach out, I'm happy toshare with you some of the
things that worked well for usand to brainstorm how you can
push the plan, because we needeverybody to be pushing this.
So I look forward to peoplereaching out.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Wonderful.
I think we'll have to have youon again, anjum, to talk about
some of these things likewriting an op-ed and teaching
people various, various skillsthat you were mentioning
throughout the call.
So thank you so much for this.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
And you know the final messageI'll tell each and every person
you have so much potential andso much people need you at the
decision making table, so youhave an important perspective.
So, yeah, definitely reach outand reach out to your peers, and
we need you there.
So I hope you take on thechallenge, but also the
wonderful pleasure that isleadership in action.

(52:11):
So, thank you.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
I hope you enjoyed that episode with Anjum.
How inspiring is she.
She really motivates you towant to be a leader in your
space and helps you take actionin those areas.
So I hope you'll be able totake away some you know
actionables from thisconversation, and perhaps the

(52:36):
areas that she talked about areof interest to you, especially
the recovery plan.
So if any of that sounds likesomething you'd like to be
involved in, as Anjum suggested,do reach out to her.
We will have all of the linksand information that we
mentioned in today's episode inour show notes page over at
phspotca slash podcast.

(52:58):
So check that out and I hope tobring on more inspiring leaders
like Nadia and Anjum to talk tous and inspire us to be leaders
in our own fields.
And if you have any suggestionsor recommendations of great
leaders that you've come acrossthat should be on this podcast,
definitely reach out to me athello at ph spotca and we'll

(53:21):
make sure that they're also onthis podcast to turn around and
inspire the PH Spot community.
And before you leave, I wantedto let you know about our six
day infographic planningchallenge that we're running If
you've ever wanted to try yourhand at developing public health
infographics, but just didn'tknow whether you even had

(53:45):
anything worth developing aninfographic for.
You have to join this challenge.
At the end of the six days, youwill have not only selected a
product to work on, but you willessentially have completed the
planning phase of your firstinfographic.
So head over to phspotca slashinfographics for more

(54:08):
information and to join thischallenge.
And until next time, thank youso much for tuning in to the PH
Spotlight podcast and for theinvaluable work that you do for
this world.