December 21, 2024 • 63 mins
Coercive control is the abuse that leaves no bruises but breaks the spirit. Dr. Torna Pitman uncovers its hidden dangers and how to fight back in this must-hear episode.
Dr. Torna Pitman is a leading expert on coercive control, an often invisible but devastating form of domestic abuse. In this powerful episode, she dives into the dynamics of coercive control, sharing insights from her PhD research and years of counselling experience. As the founder of Talking Wise and author of Tangled Web of Words, Dr. Pitman explains the red flags of this insidious abuse, highlighting how it can take over every facet of a victim's life.
Paula and Dr. Pitman discuss the ten types of abusers and reveal the patterns and behaviours to look out for. Drawing from real-life stories, Paula shares the plight of her own friends affected by coercive control, including one heartening story of a friend who has finally broken free.
With resources like 1800 RESPECT, this episode empowers listeners to support those caught in the web of coercive control and offers hope for those seeking a way out. It’s an unmissable conversation about resilience, education, and taking steps toward freedom.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Pure Grit with Paula McGrath. If you search
the word grit, you'd see that it means to have courage,
show strength of character, passion, and perseverance. Throughout the series,
paul chat to guests from all walks of life who
have shown pure grit to get to where they are now. Paula, Paula, yeah, look,
(00:26):
he it looks fine. I've done the intro, so ready
for you to talk now? Yeah, you do your talking things.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome to another episode of Pure Grit. Today's guest I've
been a little bit excited about. It's not a it's
a subject that it's a touchy subject, but a subject
we all need to become more educated on. My guest
today is a doctor and an author. She's an author
a book called The Tangle Tangle, Web of Words. She's
(00:54):
a counselor, a founder and director of a business. Talking Wise,
coercive control abuse expert. Really, she did her PhD on
the dynamics of coursive control. This is a subject we
all need to become more aware of and educated on.
We need to know the red flags the signs of
this insidious domestic abuse. Coursive control is a pattern of
(01:15):
behavior that completely takes over a person's life. Forty one
women have been killed up until the recording of this
podcast today in Australia. That's one every four to five days.
It's horrific. The most famous case of this horrific abuse
in Queensland was Hannah Clarke and her three beautiful children.
Oh it was terrible, we all know it. She was
(01:35):
murdered by her strange partner and the children's father, Ron Baxter,
in twenty twenty. He doubts them in petrol in their
car and then set them alight and then cowardly took
his own life. Hannah had suffered so much coercive control
my guest today has been instrumental and also training the
police and educating the police in the warning signs and
the patterns of coursive control. Please welcome to Pure the
(01:59):
Brilliant and beautif for Dr Trauma Hornor Pittman. Thank you
for joining me on Pure Grit.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Thank you so much so, it was such a lovely introduction.
Well done.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, You're amazing and I read about you in many
articles actually, but I found one How I found you
Because people always wonder how I find my guests that
I just research topics that or guests that have usually
a quite gritty background, but yours is of a different kind.
(02:36):
I don't know anything about your personal life, but i'd
love to know, Honor, where what led you to doing
ending up doing a PhD? In course of control?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
The really good question.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
I just had finished my degree, my second degree, and
that was in social work, and I was working as
a counselor, and I was absolutely shocked and horrified at
the number of women and children I was counseling that
were terrified of contact with their ex partner, with their father,
(03:17):
or for the mother with her ex partner, and.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
It was.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Met with such indifference from so many of the practitioners
that I was working with.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
I was just like, how can you.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Not understand what these women and children have gone through
at the hands of this person, this male, and now
they're expected to because father's rights were prominent back then
on talking two thousand and five, very very prominent. We
had John Howard as our Prime minister. He was really
(03:51):
strong on that. But it was like these practitioners just
did not comprehend, could not comprehend, didn't have the empathy
for what it was like for them.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
The sorts of.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Things that would happen at handover the sorts of things
that would happen between the child and the father when
the child was at the father's home alone without the
buffer of the mother. And so I was actually already
writing a PhD, but it was on forgiveness, and I
(04:25):
got that's a fabulous topic, and I was keen on it.
But when I started to work in this area, in
this relationship area, I was appalled and I thought. I
told him. I said to my supervisor, I don't want
to do forgiveness anymore. And he was not terribly happy
(04:47):
about that, because in those days, family violence was not
that popular.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
That wasn't a popular topic.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
But my PhD was far more than family violence, which
was equated with physical violence more so in those days,
but much more about the control pattern and the understanding
that we needed to talk about it as coercive control,
not family violence, because that was giving everyone the wrong idea.
Sometimes there is no physical violence, of course, it's just
(05:20):
a massive pattern of control and hostility. So that's how
I came to doing the PhD. But in the course
of doing it, I also realized that, you know, I'd
experienced some of that control in my own life, of
course I had. Most women have, yes, and it's sort
of opened my eyes to the underbelly of society. Really,
(05:43):
it wasn't a happy experience during that PhD. I have
to say, forgiveness would have been a lot nicer.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So Torna had you.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Have you been married before?
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Yeah, I have been married and there was no physical
violence in that relationship ship.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
No, I've never suffer I'm lucky. I've never suffered any
physical violence either. But I have been married and reached
back marriage.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
It's the control and the and the refusal to to
actually sort out anything or to come to a win win,
you know. And that's how how I worked it out
in my PhD was and in the all the awful
interviews that I did with these women who had were
(06:35):
experiencing course of control was I worked out that every
woman can have a different set of experiences, but underneath
it all, they're all up against a mail with the
same attitude or style, right.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And so there's people that die, well, there's don't there's
not a lot of people that don't actually understand what
coursive control is. Here people say, oh, coursive control, and
they go, oh, you see them there. I don't even
know what that they They've heard the word, but they don't.
I know, have studied it and under tried to understand
(07:10):
what coursive control is. And I've probably got maybe right now,
four friends in completely different situations. Oh wow, coursive control.
So that's four. And statistically, really when I look at
the statistics, one of them might suffer homicide one of
those four, And that's right, three are three are divorced,
(07:31):
Three are divorced, and one is currently in the hands
in the cultures of a severe coursive control. So they're
very different. Like three are suffering through their exes still
to this day with their children, and one monetary and
the other is just disappeared at the moment in the
(07:52):
cultures of in no contact with anybody gone.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
So is she with gone back to her partner do
you mean?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah? Or the expertner.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I finally got rid of him and then now has.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
So she was groomed back in, right?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Is that?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
What?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
It's not hard to do?
Speaker 4 (08:12):
And when that grooming process starts, we're very amenable to
being groomed back in again.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
It's not unusual.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I think how that works is if you think about
all the conversations that go on between say a husband
and a wife to partners. Yes, the conversational style of
a coercive controller is coercive, and they will control a
(08:44):
conversation so that their partner invariably feels a sense of
guilt or shame or obligation or anxiety or self doubt
or you know, and prime and confus fusion, so so
the conversations will tend to keep the part the.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Woman, say, for example.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
In one of those emotions, which makes them very amenable. Now,
a coercive controler knows how to do that very subtly.
No one else might pick it up if they were
listening or watching, because it's a very it can be
grooming can be a very subtle process.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
But you think about it.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
When we feel guilty about something, we are so amenable.
We really are. You know, most of us will try
and make it right or feel bad or you know,
sort of going to self doubt and try to connect
and get it right with that person.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, well she was saying things like I can't do
anything right. He moved into her home within a week
of meeting her, which we're all like.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's really, really scary, And that's not uncommon? Is that
that common?
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Because what you don't even know this person?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
They know it's part of that grooming process. He would
have said, you know, he was, He would have been
in a pickle, he would have been having trouble.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
He would have known how to.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Word things so that she felt almost obligated or sad
and sorry for him and let him in, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
And you would have said all the right things.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
I mean, we're not people, aren't silly. We were, but
we are all easily.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Groomed in one way or another.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Like you know, we're constantly being groomed by different things
in society all the time. But when it comes to
another person, we are usually most of us reasonably easily groomed.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
But we might have.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Not so much an openness to say, an opposite partner,
but maybe a boss or a colleague or a friend
or a Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So what what are the most say, the five most
common mornings signs of course of control?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
For one of them, one of them is you know,
speed of engagement?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
There go yeah, because normally I just don't even think
you even slightly know someone for a good six months, even.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Quite disturbing, how how you can be groomed into that
and and it's it's unfortunately it is very common. I
now work I do some work in age care now
and I see that.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
A lot even now.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Really, but yeah, moved in quickly, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
So moving, moving, moving, taking over sort of taking over
the maybe the schedule or the structure of the day.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Starting to.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Queery you on your friendships or your ex boyfriends or
what your husband, starting and tends. Because every course of
controller has a different style. So depending on their style,
they might actually be more focused on on noticing surveilling you,
(12:12):
or they may be more focused on making you a
little bit frightened off them, like strong reactions, having strong
reactions and then blaming you and okay.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
That's exactly one of them.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
And they might also.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Start to try and handle or or organize the money
so that either they're doing it all and they're across
it all, or they expect you to do it all
and they don't work right, So they will be financial
they will try and they will try and get financial
(12:51):
gain from you.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
And they will also try to guilt you and shame
you even utterly, so that you are amenable to them.
So their conversation will be very much about but you did,
but what about you? You know, there won't be any
middle column or middle ground where you can actually discuss things. Gradually,
(13:15):
you're going to lose your equality and control over your
own story and control over your own life. And it
can happen in different ways. But another really big sign
is jealousy and being really suspicious of where you are
and what you're doing and who you're doing it with.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Well, that's really my friend has has not even been
allowed to go anywhere, see not one friend. Social media
all went. That was the first sign we noticed. We're like, huh,
social media, it's all gone, gone, gone, no contact with
(13:53):
well and have a social media lover disappeared, Everything shut
down And that was a.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
That's a fine stream, I mean. And this has all
happened quite quickly.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Or probably since since May.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
That is an extreme takeover of her life, isn't it.
And it would have been done via not necessarily by
violence or intimidation, but by conversational control, just controlling every dialogue,
every conversation so that she would give way or feel
bad or try, you know, be forced to try and
(14:30):
see it from his way.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
And I'm only just worried.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
About you, you know, being at risk online and the psychobabble.
There's a lot of psychobabble, which is where they go
round around circles, but they don't actually make sense.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
And they wear you down with that, you know.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Gas Lighting is certainly, you know, a very prominent feature
for some coursive controllers, but for others it's they can
use different styles of conversation. They can be more intimidatory,
they can try and steal fear, they can try and
steal guilt, they can try and work for confusion. But
(15:11):
what they're trying to do is take over and really
do it in a way.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
That matches that person.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
So that it matches the way that they are more
most easily taken over. And someone with whose coursive control,
who has that ability and desire to do that, They
have an attitudinal style which is you know, superior entitled,
(15:40):
an adverse areal, so they will automatically look for how
do I gain advantage in over this person?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And so we early probably early on it was only
a month when we visited her. She had lost so
much weight in that oh no really, that one of
my friends had tears in their eyes because the shock
of the weight loss in one month, and the fear
(16:12):
was we saw fear. It was very, very confronting. It's
the most confronting thing I've ever seen within one month.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
That is so awful. And that's what happens.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
It's like that he had reduced her to his slave,
if you like, right emoginally abused her to the.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Point where you know she wasn't eating, and.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Anxiety very You know, that's the way to keep someone
amenable is you keep them a bit anxious, anxious to
get it right, anxious to please, controlling what she would
beauty of measures or retaliatory measures.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So beautiful clothes had been put in the garage on a.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Rack because she wouldn't be allowed to draw attention to herself.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Had to suddenly button up shirts.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, you know what do you who do you think
you are?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
You're trying to you're trying to get male attention, the
male more have more respect for our relationship, you know,
anything to guilt her and to make her feel like God,
I better, you know, better cover up a bit because
she wants to get it right right, okay, And and
you know they target cos controllers will target people who
(17:30):
are naturally very kind of giving, and they will check out,
is there an inn here? And there's there's no there's
no way. Anyone who is experiencing coosive control needs to
look at themselves. We can all be targets by different
kind of perpetrators, you know, that's part of the human condition, unfortunately.
(17:53):
But coersive controllers they're looking for a partner. They will
target someone who likes to get it right, all the
lovely things about someone likes to please, likes to have harmony,
is more inclined to be anxious than full on angry.
You know, they will target that because that is easy
(18:14):
pickings for them.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, and so now she got out of it. It's
hard to understand why she went back because of what
she was saying, how dangerous he was, and how the
fear was incredible, the fear. So it's sort of like
so hard to think, how do you think that that person?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
It's really really hard to understand that, isn't it. I
know he's given her hope, he's probably admitted to being,
you know, partly at fault. And I realize I'm doing
this because of my terrible childhood or the way or whatever,
and you know, I really want to have a relationship
(18:55):
with you. I really want to try again. Now. If
she still had a vestige of help of open her,
he would go for He would mind that, and she
will keep doing it until she runs out of hope,
right and and that's that's usually when the danger really
sets in because he can't mind her anymore, and she
(19:18):
has no hope that anything will be okay, and she's
starting to see the light.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And possibly people have.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Said to her, you know what, this this relationship is unequal,
and you know this is unsafe, and we're really worried
about your physical safety as well as your emotional safety.
There will be a defining moment for her eventually.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Gosh, that's hard to hear. What do we do as friends?
What do we do as friends? Because we have now
no contact? No one has any contact, No one.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I would Has she moved?
Speaker 2 (19:56):
She moved or is she in the same space's as
far as we know, she's moved followed him after she
removed him from her home.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
So you can't text or any nothing.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Nothing's being read, nothing's been seen, nothing's been no.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
He's taken her phone verst likely right.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
We were communicating, everyone was communicating. You know, WhatsApp and email.
When it was you know, he's reading everything was what
you know, we had to be careful because everything was
being read. Now, no one's got any no one's heid,
no one's had any response on any form. The phone
(20:38):
is always off. But we at least were able to
contact by WhatsApp. But there's no contact now.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
And you don't know where she is exactly. No, Oh gosh,
how awful. So she's been disappeared and apparently apparently in Canberra.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Okay, yeah, but none of.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
The three ends have spoken. There's been no verbal communication
since going into state. Nothing.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
One of the things I think it's that happened for me.
I mean, not only is that just the most horrific
sense of helplessness and despair for your friend, isn't it.
I would be ringing the Canberra Family Violence Service. I
don't know what they're called. I'd be good so they
have a government family violence service, and I'd be talking
(21:34):
to them about that and giving them her name, yeah,
in case she ever reaches out. Yeah, that's one thing
that you could do. And the other thing that you
can do, which isn't it is kind of where you're
not doing anything, but.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
You are there for her no matter what, even if
you don't agree with what she's doing.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Absolutely in an email, he was. He was very, very
angry because we as friends got the police involved early on,
so that became a well done of argument. So the
arguments happened apparently every single.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Night, because she was showing friends some more respect than him.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Right, Okay, that's why.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
That's the argument he might have used. You know, so
what about me?
Speaker 4 (22:27):
You seem to be you know, you seem to give
your friends more attention and more respect than you're doing me.
How can our relationship flourish if you're only listening to
your friends.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
And not me.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Right, He would have guilted her to the point where
she would have probably agreed because.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
When the police reached out she didn't want their help.
Then then that was very early on.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Which is hard, and it's often the way, and it's
a waiting game, right, Okay, it's a waiting game. But
the thing that you've done is alert that your friend
to the danger of this situation.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
That you are always there for her, and.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
People have even been getting messages from him from her phone,
he writes on her behalf, So no one could people
that I really well know how she speaks and how
she writes, so you know that's right, Yeah, especially to
her children, So her children completely, their adult children, hut.
(23:30):
Very hard for the kids, very hard.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
It's awful, It is really awful. It's like he's just he.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Has just take Whista away and taken her over even
more and tightened down security.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Right.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, but I would be ringing the Canberra if she's
in Canberra, I'd be wringing. I would be just contacting
the Cambra. Well, first of all, I'd be contacting one
eight hundred Respect and ask them what's the camera, you know,
family government, family violence agency. And then and you can
talk to one eight hundred respect about this twenty four
(24:06):
to seven.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Okay, that's good to know.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Yeah, And that's for everyone to know because one eight
hundred Respect is a national line and quite often we
don't know what's available in another state or in another area,
but one eight hundred Respect will look that up for you,
they know with the number and give it.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
So we all feel like now we feel that it's
just a waiting game.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
It is.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
We're all going to be there. We're all going to
be there no matter what. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Really because that doesn't always happen, Paula.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I've heard other people she's made she's made her.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Choice, and I'm like, made her bad chicken.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
That's exact words, exact words.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
That's old fashioned, and it completely ignores the fact that
she's been targeted, absolutely rude, and it's like joining a cult.
She's joined, she's been forced to join against it will
actually his cult. It's like an individual cult.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It's so bad on the effect on the mind. And
that's why when someone comes out of that relationship, they
do need not exactly deprogramming deprogramming, but quite a lot
of debriefing and helping them to put it into help
them understand it, and to take the onus off themselves
(25:30):
because I know, you know, for example, when I was
married and I left that husband, everyone would say to
me he was such a lovely.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Guy, same as mine, exactly such, and I didn't know
how to say, well, you don't actually bloody well live
with him, did you.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
And it's totally different intimate relationship than how you in public.
In the intimate relationship, they will have a superior and
titled an adversarial communication style, and that means that you
cannot get anywhere you're going to get groomed. And there's
(26:09):
all different ways of grooming. There's all different styles of
culsive controllers. They do it in different ways. Some of
them aren't as scary or in your face. Some of
them are, you know more. Some of them will really
really tightly control the sex life and all the finances.
Finances maybe not control so much what you do or say,
but other course of controllers control the lot. And some
(26:32):
course of controllers are much more about, you know, playing
the field and keep taking advantage, but not particularly controlling
what you do.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Right, They're all really different from it. They had that
same attitudinal style which is unworkable.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yes, so has your ex husband been married?
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Yes, I don't know anything about it, but I haven't
had any any contact or anything like that now.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
But it was a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah. But most of us solo parents, and we have
to have contact with our x because we have children.
So we don't have a choice in the fact that,
you know.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
It's not actually fair.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
It's like saying you've got to leave this cult, but
you've got to keep in touch with the cult leader.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, and anyone to do that.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
No one's managed that in any actual cult.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I see my other friends in different situations. One friend
has got completely adult children, that has grant, she's got grandchildren,
and he's not financially settling, but cutting off all the
bills and cutting off you know, they're growing up. They've
got grown up. Really think their marriage was like thirty
(27:53):
seven years. It's like, wow, you know, very young.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Yeah, I mean that's the adverse serial. You know, like
you're not You're not my partner anymore.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I'm going to cut you off.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
And yeah, yeah, that happening.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
And I'm entitled to more than you because I'm the male.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
What about you brought up all the children, the mother
did all the relevant rant the superior.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
They're entitled. They're adverse.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Serial added the behavioral style that comes from that attitudinal
style is something to be believed. It's like, you know,
you are not as good as or as important as me,
and you don't have the same voice, and you're not equal.
I don't have to listen to you you are. I
am essentially your boss. You know, I'm your supervisor, I'm
(28:45):
your manager. I'm not your equal partner. You're not my
equal partner. And that's the underlying message that you know,
is conveyed the time.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
It's just terrible. I have another beautiful girlfriend, has similar
age son to mine on a really long time. She's
tie and her marriage ended and she has the two boys,
and what she has to endure. I find it's so
hard to watch with the children what she gets called,
(29:17):
what she Oh my god, it is that the point
where I've always supported her as a friend and always
will that I've been somewhere publicly and he's abused me
in public because I'm her friend. He's actually abused me
in public, in a full public arena.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
It's outrageous and it says a lot about the fear
she feel, the fear that she must feel.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Didn't want him to know where she lived, but of
course he does because you know it's just she You
can see the control and the you know, the tends.
You know, he doesn't have any money. All these things
that are so not not true.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
That's not true, and he pretends that so that she
what she pays for more, she's got more of the
financial burden.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Well, she has to have two jobs. She works two
jobs and to do anything to support her kids.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
And so he's got the financial financial game.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I will I will put the kids in private school
if you don't take any child support. Don't even entertain that. Huh,
how do they?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
That's all it is.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
It's one of the most important things to many colors
of controllers is financial game, sexual game.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
It's social. It's so friends image, very.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Care, so hard as a friend too.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It's terrible as a friend, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
And she's just divine, the most divine person.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
But that's why she was targeted.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
You know, the English English barrier. You know, everything is
put down, put down, put down.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
You know it's it's it's really to see it, isn't
it that continual put down? Yeah, it's and you know
that is part of that attitudinal style. You're going to
have a very conversationally controlling way about you. You will
control every conversation if you have that attitudinal style because
you think you should win.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
It just absolutely zero's respect. There is not one ounce
of respect for her, like she's a piece of dirt.
It's really really difficult. And you know I see this
now with my I'm quite lucky. I count myself as
very lucky because, yeah, I do have no problem with
my son seeing his dad, but he lives on the
(31:38):
other side of the world, so I don't have it.
That's you know, he's remarried and lives on the other
side of the world. My son loves him, which is fine,
but he is a long way away from He's not
in our day.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Today talking you harassings.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Alive.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
No, no, And that's I'm blessed for because I am
seeing it through all my other friends and I always
bless myself and you know, go, I'm so blessed. We
have a relationship for my son. You know, we we
don't talk on the phone or anything like that, but
by email, you know, it's okay, like it's it's he
(32:21):
loves his son and that's good. So he respects me, well,
probably really hates me, but he respects me as being
the solo parent doing it. You know, deep down he
probably hates me. But we'll be you know, we're amicable.
You know, we're okay. He's very good to my son.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
It's not like it's impossible. But with some coercive controlers,
it's impossible to be amicable. They do not know the
meaning of that word in a relationship.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
No.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
One of my girlfriends on the girls exactly that it
is like terrible, you know.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
She's so good for you as well some women. So
I should have just stayed.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
I say, don't respond. I said, if you respond, it
opened I can we always say don't respond because the
bait just comes by message or by don't respond, but respond.
That's opening up a whole can of you know, like,
you don't win if you responds.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
You don't.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
There's there's no winning. It just comes.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
There's a book I'm not sure who wrote it. I
just can't remember who wrote it right now, but it's
called It's about the difficulties of responding to people with
difficult personalities, whether they're coercive controllers or a custom be
personality like they might have a mental health disorder such
as personality, borderline personality or by narcissistic personality disorders. You know, yeah,
(33:52):
but he talks about it's called biff b I if
if brief and cormitative, fair and friendly. I think that
covers it.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
But he explains in a couple of books ways to
handle those conversations because they wear you down.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
And you know, I know, I've seen people. You can
start to get anxious when you're ready, you know you're
going to get a text or you know that you
have to organize something, and it's.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Really helpful to have a framework for how to respond.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Like you say, sometimes you don't respond, sometimes you do,
and you keep it really brief, very informal, informative, you know, fair,
no cute accusations and you know, not exactly friendly.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
But yes, yeah, well at that way, they can't.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
They're just not having any effect on you and you're
not reacting, you know, you really And there's a a
he shows a framework, So let me just look that
up because.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
It's a really good I know that my listeners there
will be all my listeners will know someone going through Yeah,
those three are divorced and their lives are supposed to
have moved on.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
But it's well that doesn't happen all the time. So
who is this.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
A BIFF response? Yes, if you google that, there's a
form too friendly and firm, sorry, right.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
And firm, and it is.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
It's not just for course of control, it's for a
lot of different ones. But I'm just trying to work
out who wrote it.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
I used to.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Teach so many years ago, but now I'm I've forgotten
who wrote it.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
But b I F I F.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
B I And there's even a PDF for BIFF for
co parent communication.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
They go, yeah, I can hear I can hear her
going right writing that down right now?
Speaker 4 (36:05):
I think it was Bill Eddie Bill, Yes, that's right,
and he's from the High Conflict Institute, so right.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
He does is.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Outline different kinds of responses to different kinds of people
in the way that they treat you. And there's particularly
one for co parenting who's written a few books. So
you know, agencies like Relationships Australia who have to deal
with a lot of this, they teach that BIFF model.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
So in your career at counseling, as well as doing
all your work like on coercive control and educating on
coestive control, have you seen any of your clients or
patients lost to coercive control?
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Thank goodness, no, you have good Thank goodness, No, that
would just be too much, right. I've often I've often
thought to myself, I've seen dreadful things happen. I've seen
them close to suicide. Wow, Okay, a lot of women
have been you know, it would dry. It does a
(37:18):
lot of women very close to suicide and the only
reason they don't is because of their children.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
That's one of my friends I was talking about, she
actually attempted suicide.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Yeah, and because you you know, you pounded into nothing
and grooming will do that to you. And the only
reason that they stayed alive is because they didn't want
to leave the kids. And I just think, you know,
we don't actually understand that so much in our society,
how much suicide, how much mental health is.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Due to someone being corrosively controlled. Wow, just particularly women.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
They've got no worth left nothing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
And also they can't they can't see a way out
because some course of controllers will never let you go.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
No.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
I don't know if you remember this. I think it
was two thousand and in two thousand and approximately seven,
you know the Westgate Bridge.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
In Melbourne, Yes, and that little.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Girl was tossed off the bridge and her father did
it in.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
You know, it was.
Speaker 4 (38:31):
Traffic. It was full on traffic in the morning.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Yep, in front of his his other two sons. Everyone
saw it.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Who was on the bridge threw or over the bridge right,
because he was reduced his custody was reduced. And that
happened when I was writing my PhD, I was just
like it. And then at the same time, not far
later or earlier, there was this woman and she strapped
(39:02):
her baby to her chest and jumped off the other
end of the Westgate Bridge in the early hours of
the morning. She clearly planned it. Hardly anything was noticed
about it. But when you joined the dots and read
a little bit about anything, I could glean about her.
(39:23):
She had percifully controlling ex partner, and she had written
a note to her parents saying, our blood is on
his hands. Because there was no physical violence, she couldn't
charge him with anything, but he was controlling everything about
her life, and when he had the child, he was
turning the child against her.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
I think the child was you know, probably not like
toddler age, right. And the difference between the publicity for
the two was because there was no physical violence, they
couldn't might work out what was wrong with that mother
to do that, you know, but she could.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
See no way out. She couldn't get no way out.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Because no one knew anything. Then Wow, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Like back in the day, I don't growing up, I
don't remember ever hearing the term coercive control.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
I don't remember no.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Something we've all learned, especially after Hannah Clark and her
three children it became very public the word coercive control,
so a lot of people had never even heard of,
you know, by someone checking someone's phone the whole time,
or they're having access there to their computer, but it
would have been there.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
You know how soon. I've had clients who have told
me that, you know, for them to get home from
work it might take fifteen minutes. They had to be
home in ten minutes otherwise they were having an.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Affair, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
Or another woman who could only use so much toilet paper.
You know, he is controlled to that extent, or it
wouldn't be allowed to have tampons or any aids like
that because he didn't believe in them. You know, so intimate, extraordinary,
deep levels of control, whereas other cause of controllers have
different things they like to control. But you know, that's
(41:24):
how specific it can get. And when you live in
that web, it's like a web, you go downhill mentally
and emotionally, and you can no longer keep up with it.
You can't stand up for yourself. You can't keep up
with it because it's constant. And that's the grooming.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Do you think do you think.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
As awful that as it is? Like women who suffer
physical violence, do you think it's easier for them to
leave than coursive control.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Well, at least they can say, well, you know he
did bash me. You know I've got this.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
You know, for other women, there might be nothing, no
physical nothing that indicates you know, what we might usually
think of as family violence. It's part of a terrible
There was no language, no language to articulate it.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
I heard of a terrible case of the Sunshine Coast.
I can't remember it as many many years ago. I
remember distinctively really playing on my mind. A family had
a very very violent father and there's kids as well.
I think he had broken every bone in the mum's body.
Oh you know, it was very non and they I think,
(42:39):
as a family, they ended up killing him. Like I
think the kids were involved, older kids, old older, and
they had him dead at a table and they make
meals around him because they could. Finally, she ended up
actually getting off. She didn't go to It's.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
Plenty of women didn't get off for doing that, even
though they said, if we didn't kill him, he would
have killed that's right, yes, because they didn't understand the
cause of control.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
So you know, that's like horrific when I think about it, terrific,
But the trauma they must have all suffered. Imagine, it's
funny to think it's funny that there they were able
to eat freely and he's there at the table.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (43:30):
Whether he would have been a tyrant at the dinner table.
I hear that a lot a tyrant in every part
of that, and a very scary tyrant.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
It was very well.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Every police police person knew how abusive he was. There
was probably no shock that she tim you know, And
yes she she she actually got off because of the
history and how terribly how many times she had been
basically nearly killed. And probably the kids too, because yeah,
(44:05):
I think they were older by the time this happened.
But I just never forget it and think, my gosh,
what goes on in someone's house. You don't know.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
You just don't know. We don't know, we don't know.
You know.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Have you heard of Evan Stark? No, He wrote the
first major book on coercive control. He's a world expert
in coersive control. He's now well into his eighties and
but he is well worth reading. And he was a
social worker and he worked with women who had killed
(44:41):
their partners, and he would say, you know what led
you to killing him? You know what was happening for you?
Because he was trying to make sense of their experience,
and they because he was interested in asking the right
questions of them, they did held their lives to him.
(45:02):
And so then he started to realize these women were
controlled within an inch of their life, and some of
them had never even been hit, but every part of
their life was controlled, and they were no longer you know,
the directors of their own life or their life story.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
He was.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
He was the director of it.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
And so he started to research this and then write
about it, and then wrote his book, Course of Control,
and it was a seminal book. Like everybody pounced on it.
I remember where I pounced on it too. And you
can also google him even he's on YouTube. He's got
(45:42):
a few things on YouTube. He's famous Evan Stark.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
So he was the one that drew attention to the
fact that these women would have been killed had they
not killed their partner, and they had reason to kill
their partner because it was to stay alive, right, yes,
and also to protect the children sometimes because you know,
he was violent with the children.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Violent with her.
Speaker 4 (46:05):
He was going to hurt them all, so in the
end to survive, they killed him.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Is that something coercive control, say, narcissistic sort of personality.
Would they be making threats to somebody's family or to
keep someone there, like you know, if you leave me?
Oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Threats are very common that you know. They can be
very subtle threats, underhand threats, not quite said threats, very
very open and obvious threats. So you know, threats are
an art.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
They're an art form.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
You can threatn just by looking, just by a certain
body language and look on your face. You don't even
have to say it. So plenty of women have said
to me, I knew you know he had said almost said,
sometimes not quite that if I do the wrong thing,
then you know he knew people who who murdered. Oh,
(47:07):
it's just that they couldn't exactly charge him with it
or an think because it wasn't fully said, you know,
like veiled threats and also outright threats. You know, I
will see if her harm your family, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Straight up.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
It depends on the style of the course of controller,
how clever they are, and what kind of tactics they
use because they all use different tactics. But yes, you know,
the threats are often veiled, you know, threaten your professional reputation,
or to harm your friends, or threaten to harm your family,
(47:46):
or threaten to hurt the dog.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah. Yeah, oh wow. So if if someone's listening to
the podcast today who's in in a domestic situation, and
so they've tuned in to listen to you, what would
you what advice would you give them if they're looking
for a way out? What's the safest way to get out?
(48:13):
Be free? Be free, basically be fred.
Speaker 4 (48:16):
That's a really great question, and it is a hard
heart question. And if I would them, the first thing
I would do is to if they can't use their
own phone, because maybe their own phone is being tracked,
if they can even borrow someone else's phone for one
eight hundred respect, I should really look that number up
(48:39):
because I can never remember what that number is.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
It is.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
The one eight hundred seven three seven seven three two
sevent two. Yes, so one eight hundred seven three seven
seven three to two. Now it's a twenty four to
seven line, twenty four seven there, and it's it's managed
by people who understand domestic violence and course of control
(49:09):
and who can help connect you with the right helpful
where you live.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
So that's how do I get their hands on the phone,
Like if if they got some time to go shopping or.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Something exactly, you know, they exactly, they might have to
literally ask somebody. You can also message them. You don't
have to.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Just ring them.
Speaker 4 (49:33):
But you know, seven days a week, twenty four to seven,
you can do that. Now if you're being if you're
being covered that much, it can be extremely difficult to
find a phone or find freedom to talk to anybody.
You might have cameras in your house, so you're being monitored,
(49:56):
you're being surveilled. Your car might be tracked, your computer
might be tracked, your phone might be tracked. You may
not if for some women, you know, they may not
even be allowed outside. You know, it depends on what's
on what's going on in that in that family or
in that relationship. But seriously, to ring that number is
(50:21):
the first protocol, or even or even the police triple zero, yeah,
or or even triple zero. So just saying that their
phone is being tracked and they ring triple zero, well,
you know, it's about doing it.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
When you've got time and.
Speaker 4 (50:40):
Space, and you're on your own and you're able to
do it and making sure that the police comes straight
away or you get direct straight.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
Away help from one eight hundred respect. In other words,
you're The.
Speaker 4 (50:53):
Severity of the situation will determined on how you do this.
But you have every right too. They want you to
call all they want to know, because no one has
the right to frighten you like this, to keep you
so controlled that you don't have any rights to ring
who you want, when you want and ask for the
help you need. Could you go to a neighbor. You
(51:15):
can go to a neighbor and ask them to do it.
You can ask someone in the street to do it,
you know, if you can just get away, get a
little bit of space and ask someone to do it
for you.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's just terrific to think
that there actually are people in this situation. It's just
so hard. I know there are those, because I.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Know one, I don't know one.
Speaker 4 (51:38):
It's so it's common. Funnily enough, it's actually quite common.
Isn't that terrible to think? I mean, people will be
tightly controlled with the choker chain, you know, so to speak,
but they are they are living in coosive control and
living in a lot of their devices are being monitored
and surveiled, and they are expected to explain themselves.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Even know, I even know, to be fair, I even
know one male that was suffering it.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, it can happen to any gender.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
Act I do know. I do know a male that
was getting listened to every conversation was being recorded with
a camera or I know, like I woudn'tbelieve. It's like,
are you do you know what that is? Like my gosh,
you're a big man. Like still same thing happening from
(52:32):
a female to a male controlling what was listening what
was being said. And I'm like, wow, you know you
think that would be enough to go see her later? No,
still there still there that was It's against the law
to do that to someone. Actually against the law.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
It is actually against the law.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
But it's it's very difficult to prove that that's what
happened to But it is now becoming more and more common.
There are people now who can look at your phone,
look at your computer and tell you whether you're being
tracked and surveil and monitored or.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
All who to get to do that.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
It can all be used.
Speaker 4 (53:12):
For evidence one eight hundred. Respect will tell you a
number of people who will do it, and they are
so clever they can actually determine whether you're being tracked
or not. And you see all of that's evidence for
the court.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
Wow. And and also if your car is being tracked wow.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Yeah. So if is it now law it's a jalable
offense coercive control. I mean, I know it would take.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
A criminal yea. It is in some states, not every state.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Queensland it definitely is.
Speaker 4 (53:45):
I know that, and Adelaide. I think South Australia are
working on it. You know, I think we're starting to
really you know, every state is that in a different
phase of criminalizing it.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
I think New South Wales is now too New South
Wales now. But I mean, of course to have to
gather so much evidence.
Speaker 4 (54:11):
Well, a lot of lawyers have said to me, you know,
how do we get the evidence of this? And I said,
you know what, you're going to have to work that out.
You're the lawyers. You know, you can't not provide the
evidence because you don't know how it's really it's really
I'm just going to look at which states New South
(54:33):
Wales and Queensland have criminalized, yes, and I think where
South Australia is on the way.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
How about ACT.
Speaker 3 (54:44):
Yeah, I think they're on the way.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
I think most streets are eventually going to criminalize it.
Speaker 3 (54:50):
But it's you know, it takes.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Quite a lot of work, Yes, it would, yes, gathering
you know, but you just have to gather up every message, every.
Speaker 4 (55:01):
You know. They're also asking the person the woman would
have a gender is you know what are you allowed
to do? What aren't you allowed to do? What were
you allowed to say? What weren't you allowed to say?
You know? What happened in the financial arrangements, what happened
in the sexual relationship, what happened physically between them both?
(55:22):
You both, how did you manage the social your social life?
Speaker 3 (55:27):
You know, what would happen there?
Speaker 4 (55:28):
Oh? Well, you know he could go out whatever it,
do whatever he liked. He could have affairs. But I was,
I was told I was.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
I've had I had disappear for twelve difs disappear for
twelve hours.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
Yeah, yeah, all that he.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
Can disappear for twelve hours, no contact whatsoever, and then
appear again.
Speaker 4 (55:47):
Credible double standards, Like I can do what I want,
But you like, I can spend what I like. You're
on a very tight budget and you come to me
and you request money and say why you need it,
But I'll spend what I like. You know, so you
can actually map all of that around every domain of
the relationship. But what was allowed, what wasn't allowed, How
(56:07):
is it how you stopped? What were the tactics used?
You know what I'm saying. It's not like we can't
get the the pattern of course of control quite easily.
Even if the even if the style of course of
control was fairly under you know, more under the radar
(56:27):
than an obvious one. You know, you can still.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Map it lots of for everyone listening. You know, the signs, signs,
especially for the family. The family are usually generally onto
it straight away when something's are miss square.
Speaker 4 (56:47):
Well, everyone else will see it, but not necessary.
Speaker 2 (56:51):
No, they won't see it.
Speaker 3 (56:52):
And you know.
Speaker 4 (56:55):
Everyone else they're in a cult, except for the person
in a.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Cult for ten years. Oh not eventually came out of it,
but they all knew. And it took ten years for
her to finally leave that situation. But I've heard it
soon as I've been saying, I'm going to speak to you,
it's like the conversations are coming. It's like wow. So
(57:18):
you know, for people listening, you know, I think, don't
give up, just be there and reach out. You know,
the old saying, Oh, she's chosen, she's chosen this.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
She didn't choose to be abused. No, no way controlled.
Speaker 4 (57:33):
No one chows that. It doesn't ever start off like that.
I mean, you can buy my book just to give
my little book.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Absolutely the words and.
Speaker 3 (57:45):
No one can see us.
Speaker 4 (57:47):
This is all no, this is all audio. Yes, so
it's The subtitle is a Breakthrough Guide to Conversational and
coercive Control and Relationships.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
It's quite as it's not.
Speaker 4 (58:00):
Quite a simple book, and it explains how it happens,
what happens in the conversations, and how the relationship will unfold.
And people tell me when they've read it it's like, gosh,
you know that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
But also how.
Speaker 4 (58:17):
Difficult it is to get a coercively controlling partner to understand,
respond properly or agree to anything.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
They won't.
Speaker 4 (58:30):
How they're just unworkable and yet they can be great publicly.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
Wow. So where can we buy the book?
Speaker 4 (58:39):
You can just buy it on Amazon, Tangled Web of words.
Put it in Amazon and it will come up as
kindle or printed book.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
Oh you know what, doctor Thoma, I need to get
you on. A very good friend of mine's got a
new platform called Booklee. Your book would be brilliant on that.
Speaker 3 (58:57):
Yeah, I would be lovely. Yeah. I think she would
highlight you as an author too, Yeah, brilliantly. That would
be great.
Speaker 4 (59:04):
It's it's it's sort of my last ditch effort to
try and explain coursive controls.
Speaker 3 (59:11):
That you don't really get it.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
I know a lot of people throw the word around
but don't really know what it means.
Speaker 4 (59:17):
Yeah, and it's understandable they don't know what it really means.
But because we've never really been big on understanding how well,
first of all, how men used to control women, women
used to own men used to own women, right absolutely, now,
now it's really it's those same behaviors, but it played
out in intimate relationships no matter what, basically often between
(59:39):
male and female, but also between.
Speaker 2 (59:42):
Same sex yes, same sex relationships.
Speaker 4 (59:44):
Yeah, it's the same passion. It's the same passion of abuse,
of domination, of disempowering, as is used.
Speaker 3 (59:52):
In any form of abuse.
Speaker 4 (59:56):
It's not it's just how we dominate someone cultly, just
use it. Prisoners of war get treated like that. Organizations
treat whistleblowers in the same sort of way, you know,
they start to just control life.
Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
You know, it's the same tactics.
Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
So for anyone to be experiencing being controlled and feeling
bad about it, it's like most of the world is
experiencing it in some way, shape or form. Coercive control
is between intimate partners, yes, but we experience the same
sort of tactics at work, you know, place country control,
(01:00:36):
it takes over and colonizes another country, same process.
Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Yes, you know, doctor Torner, thank you so much for
coming on pure great and it's you know, it's it's
been on my mind all year to tackle coercive control,
really has been.
Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
Thank you for asking me.
Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Yeah, you've got a lot of friends in really tricky situations.
Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Well that they would if they were here, they'd all
be coming to the mic, and that would be coming
to the mic and sent to you. This is what
I just I'm you know, they were saying, Okay, we
need to do a podcast on it. That's how much
I get asked we should actually do a podcast just
on domestic abuse and conversive control. Like I'm like, wow,
(01:01:22):
you know, I thought, well, no, I'm going to tackle
this on pure grit because there are people listening who
you know what, You're going to have the grit to
get out, You're going to have it. You've got grit
to be surviving it. You can survive, and you can
get out and you can be free.
Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
You can.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
And you think you have to be smart about it.
I think there has to be.
Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
You've got to protect your safety, your physical and your
emotional safety, and that can be a journey, but that's
your right. Yeah, have the right to be protected as
you're leaving, and then you have the right to take
your mind back and your body back for yourself. Yeah,
and it's a process, it doesn't doesn't always take that long,
(01:02:03):
but you have the right to do that. That's your
birthright is to come here. And you know, you're your
own country. You govern your own country. You don't let
someone who's another country come in and take over your
country and govern your own country.
Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
And it's not why you fell in love or why
it happened, But there are a lot of women that
are targeted purely for their kind heart and they're giving
nature and it turns.
Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
Well also their resources, what they can offer, what they
can offer financially, sexually, in terms of you know, it's
kind of handy, you know if you really have got
that mindset and you just think, well, you know, that
woman will give me an easy life.
Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
That's right, I don't have to do anything. Yeah, thank
you so lovely to meet you.
Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
Lovely to meet you too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Thank you for helping us tackle this very tough subject.
Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Well thee Thanks for listening to Pure Grip with Paul McGrath.
Now the web guy's been a very busy boy. You
can now visit the website pure Grit dot com dot au,
search Pure Group podcast on Facebook and Instagram for the
fun behind the scenes stuff. And I was wondering why
Paul had started wearing makeup. Turns out all the chats
are now on YouTube as well, so make sure you
give that a subscribe
Welcome to Pure Grit with Paula McGrath. If you search
the word grit, you'd see that it means to have courage,
show strength of character, passion, and perseverance. Throughout the series,
paul chat to guests from all walks of life who
have shown pure grit to get to where they are now. Paula, Paula, yeah, look,
(00:26):
he it looks fine. I've done the intro, so ready
for you to talk now? Yeah, you do your talking things.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome to another episode of Pure Grit. Today's guest I've
been a little bit excited about. It's not a it's
a subject that it's a touchy subject, but a subject
we all need to become more educated on. My guest
today is a doctor and an author. She's an author
a book called The Tangle Tangle, Web of Words. She's
(00:54):
a counselor, a founder and director of a business. Talking Wise,
coercive control abuse expert. Really, she did her PhD on
the dynamics of coursive control. This is a subject we
all need to become more aware of and educated on.
We need to know the red flags the signs of
this insidious domestic abuse. Coursive control is a pattern of
(01:15):
behavior that completely takes over a person's life. Forty one
women have been killed up until the recording of this
podcast today in Australia. That's one every four to five days.
It's horrific. The most famous case of this horrific abuse
in Queensland was Hannah Clarke and her three beautiful children.
Oh it was terrible, we all know it. She was
(01:35):
murdered by her strange partner and the children's father, Ron Baxter,
in twenty twenty. He doubts them in petrol in their
car and then set them alight and then cowardly took
his own life. Hannah had suffered so much coercive control
my guest today has been instrumental and also training the
police and educating the police in the warning signs and
the patterns of coursive control. Please welcome to Pure the
(01:59):
Brilliant and beautif for Dr Trauma Hornor Pittman. Thank you
for joining me on Pure Grit.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Thank you so much so, it was such a lovely introduction.
Well done.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well, You're amazing and I read about you in many
articles actually, but I found one How I found you
Because people always wonder how I find my guests that
I just research topics that or guests that have usually
a quite gritty background, but yours is of a different kind.
(02:36):
I don't know anything about your personal life, but i'd
love to know, Honor, where what led you to doing
ending up doing a PhD? In course of control?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
The really good question.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
I just had finished my degree, my second degree, and
that was in social work, and I was working as
a counselor, and I was absolutely shocked and horrified at
the number of women and children I was counseling that
were terrified of contact with their ex partner, with their father,
(03:17):
or for the mother with her ex partner, and.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
It was.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Met with such indifference from so many of the practitioners
that I was working with.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
I was just like, how can you.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Not understand what these women and children have gone through
at the hands of this person, this male, and now
they're expected to because father's rights were prominent back then
on talking two thousand and five, very very prominent. We
had John Howard as our Prime minister. He was really
(03:51):
strong on that. But it was like these practitioners just
did not comprehend, could not comprehend, didn't have the empathy
for what it was like for them.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
The sorts of.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Things that would happen at handover the sorts of things
that would happen between the child and the father when
the child was at the father's home alone without the
buffer of the mother. And so I was actually already
writing a PhD, but it was on forgiveness, and I
(04:25):
got that's a fabulous topic, and I was keen on it.
But when I started to work in this area, in
this relationship area, I was appalled and I thought. I
told him. I said to my supervisor, I don't want
to do forgiveness anymore. And he was not terribly happy
(04:47):
about that, because in those days, family violence was not
that popular.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
That wasn't a popular topic.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
But my PhD was far more than family violence, which
was equated with physical violence more so in those days,
but much more about the control pattern and the understanding
that we needed to talk about it as coercive control,
not family violence, because that was giving everyone the wrong idea.
Sometimes there is no physical violence, of course, it's just
(05:20):
a massive pattern of control and hostility. So that's how
I came to doing the PhD. But in the course
of doing it, I also realized that, you know, I'd
experienced some of that control in my own life, of
course I had. Most women have, yes, and it's sort
of opened my eyes to the underbelly of society. Really,
(05:43):
it wasn't a happy experience during that PhD. I have
to say, forgiveness would have been a lot nicer.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So Torna had you.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Have you been married before?
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Yeah, I have been married and there was no physical
violence in that relationship ship.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
No, I've never suffer I'm lucky. I've never suffered any
physical violence either. But I have been married and reached
back marriage.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
It's the control and the and the refusal to to
actually sort out anything or to come to a win win,
you know. And that's how how I worked it out
in my PhD was and in the all the awful
interviews that I did with these women who had were
(06:35):
experiencing course of control was I worked out that every
woman can have a different set of experiences, but underneath
it all, they're all up against a mail with the
same attitude or style, right.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
And so there's people that die, well, there's don't there's
not a lot of people that don't actually understand what
coursive control is. Here people say, oh, coursive control, and
they go, oh, you see them there. I don't even
know what that they They've heard the word, but they don't.
I know, have studied it and under tried to understand
(07:10):
what coursive control is. And I've probably got maybe right now,
four friends in completely different situations. Oh wow, coursive control.
So that's four. And statistically, really when I look at
the statistics, one of them might suffer homicide one of
those four, And that's right, three are three are divorced,
(07:31):
Three are divorced, and one is currently in the hands
in the cultures of a severe coursive control. So they're
very different. Like three are suffering through their exes still
to this day with their children, and one monetary and
the other is just disappeared at the moment in the
(07:52):
cultures of in no contact with anybody gone.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
So is she with gone back to her partner do
you mean?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah? Or the expertner.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I finally got rid of him and then now has.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
So she was groomed back in, right?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Is that?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
What?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
It's not hard to do?
Speaker 4 (08:12):
And when that grooming process starts, we're very amenable to
being groomed back in again.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
It's not unusual.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I think how that works is if you think about
all the conversations that go on between say a husband
and a wife to partners. Yes, the conversational style of
a coercive controller is coercive, and they will control a
(08:44):
conversation so that their partner invariably feels a sense of
guilt or shame or obligation or anxiety or self doubt
or you know, and prime and confus fusion, so so
the conversations will tend to keep the part the.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Woman, say, for example.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
In one of those emotions, which makes them very amenable. Now,
a coercive controler knows how to do that very subtly.
No one else might pick it up if they were
listening or watching, because it's a very it can be
grooming can be a very subtle process.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
But you think about it.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
When we feel guilty about something, we are so amenable.
We really are. You know, most of us will try
and make it right or feel bad or you know,
sort of going to self doubt and try to connect
and get it right with that person.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, well she was saying things like I can't do
anything right. He moved into her home within a week
of meeting her, which we're all like.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's really, really scary, And that's not uncommon? Is that
that common?
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Because what you don't even know this person?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
They know it's part of that grooming process. He would
have said, you know, he was, He would have been
in a pickle, he would have been having trouble.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
He would have known how to.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Word things so that she felt almost obligated or sad
and sorry for him and let him in, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
And you would have said all the right things.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
I mean, we're not people, aren't silly. We were, but
we are all easily.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Groomed in one way or another.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Like you know, we're constantly being groomed by different things
in society all the time. But when it comes to
another person, we are usually most of us reasonably easily groomed.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
But we might have.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Not so much an openness to say, an opposite partner,
but maybe a boss or a colleague or a friend
or a Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So what what are the most say, the five most
common mornings signs of course of control?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
For one of them, one of them is you know,
speed of engagement?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
There go yeah, because normally I just don't even think
you even slightly know someone for a good six months, even.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Quite disturbing, how how you can be groomed into that
and and it's it's unfortunately it is very common. I
now work I do some work in age care now
and I see that.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
A lot even now.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Really, but yeah, moved in quickly, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
So moving, moving, moving, taking over sort of taking over
the maybe the schedule or the structure of the day.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Starting to.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Queery you on your friendships or your ex boyfriends or
what your husband, starting and tends. Because every course of
controller has a different style. So depending on their style,
they might actually be more focused on on noticing surveilling you,
(12:12):
or they may be more focused on making you a
little bit frightened off them, like strong reactions, having strong
reactions and then blaming you and okay.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
That's exactly one of them.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
And they might also.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Start to try and handle or or organize the money
so that either they're doing it all and they're across
it all, or they expect you to do it all
and they don't work right, So they will be financial
they will try and they will try and get financial
(12:51):
gain from you.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
And they will also try to guilt you and shame
you even utterly, so that you are amenable to them.
So their conversation will be very much about but you did,
but what about you? You know, there won't be any
middle column or middle ground where you can actually discuss things. Gradually,
(13:15):
you're going to lose your equality and control over your
own story and control over your own life. And it
can happen in different ways. But another really big sign
is jealousy and being really suspicious of where you are
and what you're doing and who you're doing it with.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Well, that's really my friend has has not even been
allowed to go anywhere, see not one friend. Social media
all went. That was the first sign we noticed. We're like, huh,
social media, it's all gone, gone, gone, no contact with
(13:53):
well and have a social media lover disappeared, Everything shut
down And that was a.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
That's a fine stream, I mean. And this has all
happened quite quickly.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Or probably since since May.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
That is an extreme takeover of her life, isn't it.
And it would have been done via not necessarily by
violence or intimidation, but by conversational control, just controlling every dialogue,
every conversation so that she would give way or feel
bad or try, you know, be forced to try and
(14:30):
see it from his way.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
And I'm only just worried.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
About you, you know, being at risk online and the psychobabble.
There's a lot of psychobabble, which is where they go
round around circles, but they don't actually make sense.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
And they wear you down with that, you know.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Gas Lighting is certainly, you know, a very prominent feature
for some coursive controllers, but for others it's they can
use different styles of conversation. They can be more intimidatory,
they can try and steal fear, they can try and
steal guilt, they can try and work for confusion. But
(15:11):
what they're trying to do is take over and really
do it in a way.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
That matches that person.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
So that it matches the way that they are more
most easily taken over. And someone with whose coursive control,
who has that ability and desire to do that, They
have an attitudinal style which is you know, superior entitled,
(15:40):
an adverse areal, so they will automatically look for how
do I gain advantage in over this person?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And so we early probably early on it was only
a month when we visited her. She had lost so
much weight in that oh no really, that one of
my friends had tears in their eyes because the shock
of the weight loss in one month, and the fear
(16:12):
was we saw fear. It was very, very confronting. It's
the most confronting thing I've ever seen within one month.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
That is so awful. And that's what happens.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
It's like that he had reduced her to his slave,
if you like, right emoginally abused her to the.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Point where you know she wasn't eating, and.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Anxiety very You know, that's the way to keep someone
amenable is you keep them a bit anxious, anxious to
get it right, anxious to please, controlling what she would
beauty of measures or retaliatory measures.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So beautiful clothes had been put in the garage on a.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Rack because she wouldn't be allowed to draw attention to herself.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Had to suddenly button up shirts.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, you know what do you who do you think
you are?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
You're trying to you're trying to get male attention, the
male more have more respect for our relationship, you know,
anything to guilt her and to make her feel like God,
I better, you know, better cover up a bit because
she wants to get it right right, okay, And and
you know they target cos controllers will target people who
(17:30):
are naturally very kind of giving, and they will check out,
is there an inn here? And there's there's no there's
no way. Anyone who is experiencing coosive control needs to
look at themselves. We can all be targets by different
kind of perpetrators, you know, that's part of the human condition, unfortunately.
(17:53):
But coersive controllers they're looking for a partner. They will
target someone who likes to get it right, all the
lovely things about someone likes to please, likes to have harmony,
is more inclined to be anxious than full on angry.
You know, they will target that because that is easy
(18:14):
pickings for them.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, and so now she got out of it. It's
hard to understand why she went back because of what
she was saying, how dangerous he was, and how the
fear was incredible, the fear. So it's sort of like
so hard to think, how do you think that that person?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
It's really really hard to understand that, isn't it. I
know he's given her hope, he's probably admitted to being,
you know, partly at fault. And I realize I'm doing
this because of my terrible childhood or the way or whatever,
and you know, I really want to have a relationship
(18:55):
with you. I really want to try again. Now. If
she still had a vestige of help of open her,
he would go for He would mind that, and she
will keep doing it until she runs out of hope,
right and and that's that's usually when the danger really
sets in because he can't mind her anymore, and she
(19:18):
has no hope that anything will be okay, and she's
starting to see the light.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And possibly people have.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Said to her, you know what, this this relationship is unequal,
and you know this is unsafe, and we're really worried
about your physical safety as well as your emotional safety.
There will be a defining moment for her eventually.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Gosh, that's hard to hear. What do we do as friends?
What do we do as friends? Because we have now
no contact? No one has any contact, No one.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I would Has she moved?
Speaker 2 (19:56):
She moved or is she in the same space's as
far as we know, she's moved followed him after she
removed him from her home.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
So you can't text or any nothing.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Nothing's being read, nothing's been seen, nothing's been no.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
He's taken her phone verst likely right.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
We were communicating, everyone was communicating. You know, WhatsApp and email.
When it was you know, he's reading everything was what
you know, we had to be careful because everything was
being read. Now, no one's got any no one's heid,
no one's had any response on any form. The phone
(20:38):
is always off. But we at least were able to
contact by WhatsApp. But there's no contact now.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
And you don't know where she is exactly. No, Oh gosh,
how awful. So she's been disappeared and apparently apparently in Canberra.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Okay, yeah, but none of.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
The three ends have spoken. There's been no verbal communication
since going into state. Nothing.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
One of the things I think it's that happened for me.
I mean, not only is that just the most horrific
sense of helplessness and despair for your friend, isn't it.
I would be ringing the Canberra Family Violence Service. I
don't know what they're called. I'd be good so they
have a government family violence service, and I'd be talking
(21:34):
to them about that and giving them her name, yeah,
in case she ever reaches out. Yeah, that's one thing
that you could do. And the other thing that you
can do, which isn't it is kind of where you're
not doing anything, but.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
You are there for her no matter what, even if
you don't agree with what she's doing.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Absolutely in an email, he was. He was very, very
angry because we as friends got the police involved early on,
so that became a well done of argument. So the
arguments happened apparently every single.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Night, because she was showing friends some more respect than him.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Right, Okay, that's why.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
That's the argument he might have used. You know, so
what about me?
Speaker 4 (22:27):
You seem to be you know, you seem to give
your friends more attention and more respect than you're doing me.
How can our relationship flourish if you're only listening to
your friends.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
And not me.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Right, He would have guilted her to the point where
she would have probably agreed because.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
When the police reached out she didn't want their help.
Then then that was very early on.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Which is hard, and it's often the way, and it's
a waiting game, right, Okay, it's a waiting game. But
the thing that you've done is alert that your friend
to the danger of this situation.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
That you are always there for her, and.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
People have even been getting messages from him from her phone,
he writes on her behalf, So no one could people
that I really well know how she speaks and how
she writes, so you know that's right, Yeah, especially to
her children, So her children completely, their adult children, hut.
(23:30):
Very hard for the kids, very hard.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
It's awful, It is really awful. It's like he's just he.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Has just take Whista away and taken her over even
more and tightened down security.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Right.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, but I would be ringing the Canberra if she's
in Canberra, I'd be wringing. I would be just contacting
the Cambra. Well, first of all, I'd be contacting one
eight hundred Respect and ask them what's the camera, you know,
family government, family violence agency. And then and you can
talk to one eight hundred respect about this twenty four
(24:06):
to seven.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Okay, that's good to know.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Yeah, And that's for everyone to know because one eight
hundred Respect is a national line and quite often we
don't know what's available in another state or in another area,
but one eight hundred Respect will look that up for you,
they know with the number and give it.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
So we all feel like now we feel that it's
just a waiting game.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
It is.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
We're all going to be there. We're all going to
be there no matter what. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Really because that doesn't always happen, Paula.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I've heard other people she's made she's made her.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Choice, and I'm like, made her bad chicken.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
That's exact words, exact words.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
That's old fashioned, and it completely ignores the fact that
she's been targeted, absolutely rude, and it's like joining a cult.
She's joined, she's been forced to join against it will
actually his cult. It's like an individual cult.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It's so bad on the effect on the mind. And
that's why when someone comes out of that relationship, they
do need not exactly deprogramming deprogramming, but quite a lot
of debriefing and helping them to put it into help
them understand it, and to take the onus off themselves
(25:30):
because I know, you know, for example, when I was
married and I left that husband, everyone would say to
me he was such a lovely.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Guy, same as mine, exactly such, and I didn't know
how to say, well, you don't actually bloody well live
with him, did you.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
And it's totally different intimate relationship than how you in public.
In the intimate relationship, they will have a superior and
titled an adversarial communication style, and that means that you
cannot get anywhere you're going to get groomed. And there's
(26:09):
all different ways of grooming. There's all different styles of
culsive controllers. They do it in different ways. Some of
them aren't as scary or in your face. Some of
them are, you know more. Some of them will really
really tightly control the sex life and all the finances.
Finances maybe not control so much what you do or say,
but other course of controllers control the lot. And some
(26:32):
course of controllers are much more about, you know, playing
the field and keep taking advantage, but not particularly controlling
what you do.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Right, They're all really different from it. They had that
same attitudinal style which is unworkable.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yes, so has your ex husband been married?
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Yes, I don't know anything about it, but I haven't
had any any contact or anything like that now.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
But it was a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah. But most of us solo parents, and we have
to have contact with our x because we have children.
So we don't have a choice in the fact that,
you know.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
It's not actually fair.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
It's like saying you've got to leave this cult, but
you've got to keep in touch with the cult leader.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, and anyone to do that.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
No one's managed that in any actual cult.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I see my other friends in different situations. One friend
has got completely adult children, that has grant, she's got grandchildren,
and he's not financially settling, but cutting off all the
bills and cutting off you know, they're growing up. They've
got grown up. Really think their marriage was like thirty
(27:53):
seven years. It's like, wow, you know, very young.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Yeah, I mean that's the adverse serial. You know, like
you're not You're not my partner anymore.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I'm going to cut you off.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
And yeah, yeah, that happening.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
And I'm entitled to more than you because I'm the male.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
What about you brought up all the children, the mother
did all the relevant rant the superior.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
They're entitled. They're adverse.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Serial added the behavioral style that comes from that attitudinal
style is something to be believed. It's like, you know,
you are not as good as or as important as me,
and you don't have the same voice, and you're not equal.
I don't have to listen to you you are. I
am essentially your boss. You know, I'm your supervisor, I'm
(28:45):
your manager. I'm not your equal partner. You're not my
equal partner. And that's the underlying message that you know,
is conveyed the time.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
It's just terrible. I have another beautiful girlfriend, has similar
age son to mine on a really long time. She's
tie and her marriage ended and she has the two boys,
and what she has to endure. I find it's so
hard to watch with the children what she gets called,
(29:17):
what she Oh my god, it is that the point
where I've always supported her as a friend and always
will that I've been somewhere publicly and he's abused me
in public because I'm her friend. He's actually abused me
in public, in a full public arena.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
It's outrageous and it says a lot about the fear
she feel, the fear that she must feel.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Didn't want him to know where she lived, but of
course he does because you know it's just she You
can see the control and the you know, the tends.
You know, he doesn't have any money. All these things
that are so not not true.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
That's not true, and he pretends that so that she
what she pays for more, she's got more of the
financial burden.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Well, she has to have two jobs. She works two
jobs and to do anything to support her kids.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
And so he's got the financial financial game.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I will I will put the kids in private school
if you don't take any child support. Don't even entertain that. Huh,
how do they?
Speaker 3 (30:26):
That's all it is.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
It's one of the most important things to many colors
of controllers is financial game, sexual game.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
It's social. It's so friends image, very.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Care, so hard as a friend too.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It's terrible as a friend, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
And she's just divine, the most divine person.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
But that's why she was targeted.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
You know, the English English barrier. You know, everything is
put down, put down, put down.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
You know it's it's it's really to see it, isn't
it that continual put down? Yeah, it's and you know
that is part of that attitudinal style. You're going to
have a very conversationally controlling way about you. You will
control every conversation if you have that attitudinal style because
you think you should win.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
It just absolutely zero's respect. There is not one ounce
of respect for her, like she's a piece of dirt.
It's really really difficult. And you know I see this
now with my I'm quite lucky. I count myself as
very lucky because, yeah, I do have no problem with
my son seeing his dad, but he lives on the
(31:38):
other side of the world, so I don't have it.
That's you know, he's remarried and lives on the other
side of the world. My son loves him, which is fine,
but he is a long way away from He's not
in our day.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Today talking you harassings.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Alive.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
No, no, And that's I'm blessed for because I am
seeing it through all my other friends and I always
bless myself and you know, go, I'm so blessed. We
have a relationship for my son. You know, we we
don't talk on the phone or anything like that, but
by email, you know, it's okay, like it's it's he
(32:21):
loves his son and that's good. So he respects me, well,
probably really hates me, but he respects me as being
the solo parent doing it. You know, deep down he
probably hates me. But we'll be you know, we're amicable.
You know, we're okay. He's very good to my son.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
It's not like it's impossible. But with some coercive controlers,
it's impossible to be amicable. They do not know the
meaning of that word in a relationship.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
No.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
One of my girlfriends on the girls exactly that it
is like terrible, you know.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
She's so good for you as well some women. So
I should have just stayed.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
I say, don't respond. I said, if you respond, it
opened I can we always say don't respond because the
bait just comes by message or by don't respond, but respond.
That's opening up a whole can of you know, like,
you don't win if you responds.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
You don't.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
There's there's no winning. It just comes.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
There's a book I'm not sure who wrote it. I
just can't remember who wrote it right now, but it's
called It's about the difficulties of responding to people with
difficult personalities, whether they're coercive controllers or a custom be
personality like they might have a mental health disorder such
as personality, borderline personality or by narcissistic personality disorders. You know, yeah,
(33:52):
but he talks about it's called biff b I if
if brief and cormitative, fair and friendly. I think that
covers it.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
But he explains in a couple of books ways to
handle those conversations because they wear you down.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
And you know, I know, I've seen people. You can
start to get anxious when you're ready, you know you're
going to get a text or you know that you
have to organize something, and it's.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Really helpful to have a framework for how to respond.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Like you say, sometimes you don't respond, sometimes you do,
and you keep it really brief, very informal, informative, you know, fair,
no cute accusations and you know, not exactly friendly.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
But yes, yeah, well at that way, they can't.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
They're just not having any effect on you and you're
not reacting, you know, you really And there's a a
he shows a framework, So let me just look that
up because.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
It's a really good I know that my listeners there
will be all my listeners will know someone going through Yeah,
those three are divorced and their lives are supposed to
have moved on.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
But it's well that doesn't happen all the time. So
who is this.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
A BIFF response? Yes, if you google that, there's a
form too friendly and firm, sorry, right.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
And firm, and it is.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
It's not just for course of control, it's for a
lot of different ones. But I'm just trying to work
out who wrote it.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
I used to.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Teach so many years ago, but now I'm I've forgotten
who wrote it.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
But b I F I F.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
B I And there's even a PDF for BIFF for
co parent communication.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
They go, yeah, I can hear I can hear her
going right writing that down right now?
Speaker 4 (36:05):
I think it was Bill Eddie Bill, Yes, that's right,
and he's from the High Conflict Institute, so right.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
He does is.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Outline different kinds of responses to different kinds of people
in the way that they treat you. And there's particularly
one for co parenting who's written a few books. So
you know, agencies like Relationships Australia who have to deal
with a lot of this, they teach that BIFF model.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
So in your career at counseling, as well as doing
all your work like on coercive control and educating on
coestive control, have you seen any of your clients or
patients lost to coercive control?
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Thank goodness, no, you have good Thank goodness, No, that
would just be too much, right. I've often I've often
thought to myself, I've seen dreadful things happen. I've seen
them close to suicide. Wow, Okay, a lot of women
have been you know, it would dry. It does a
(37:18):
lot of women very close to suicide and the only
reason they don't is because of their children.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
That's one of my friends I was talking about, she
actually attempted suicide.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Yeah, and because you you know, you pounded into nothing
and grooming will do that to you. And the only
reason that they stayed alive is because they didn't want
to leave the kids. And I just think, you know,
we don't actually understand that so much in our society,
how much suicide, how much mental health is.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Due to someone being corrosively controlled. Wow, just particularly women.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
They've got no worth left nothing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
And also they can't they can't see a way out
because some course of controllers will never let you go.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
No.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
I don't know if you remember this. I think it
was two thousand and in two thousand and approximately seven,
you know the Westgate Bridge.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
In Melbourne, Yes, and that little.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Girl was tossed off the bridge and her father did
it in.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
You know, it was.
Speaker 4 (38:31):
Traffic. It was full on traffic in the morning.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Yep, in front of his his other two sons. Everyone
saw it.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Who was on the bridge threw or over the bridge right,
because he was reduced his custody was reduced. And that
happened when I was writing my PhD, I was just
like it. And then at the same time, not far
later or earlier, there was this woman and she strapped
(39:02):
her baby to her chest and jumped off the other
end of the Westgate Bridge in the early hours of
the morning. She clearly planned it. Hardly anything was noticed
about it. But when you joined the dots and read
a little bit about anything, I could glean about her.
(39:23):
She had percifully controlling ex partner, and she had written
a note to her parents saying, our blood is on
his hands. Because there was no physical violence, she couldn't
charge him with anything, but he was controlling everything about
her life, and when he had the child, he was
turning the child against her.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
I think the child was you know, probably not like
toddler age, right. And the difference between the publicity for
the two was because there was no physical violence, they
couldn't might work out what was wrong with that mother
to do that, you know, but she could.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
See no way out. She couldn't get no way out.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Because no one knew anything. Then Wow, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Like back in the day, I don't growing up, I
don't remember ever hearing the term coercive control.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
I don't remember no.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Something we've all learned, especially after Hannah Clark and her
three children it became very public the word coercive control,
so a lot of people had never even heard of,
you know, by someone checking someone's phone the whole time,
or they're having access there to their computer, but it
would have been there.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
You know how soon. I've had clients who have told
me that, you know, for them to get home from
work it might take fifteen minutes. They had to be
home in ten minutes otherwise they were having an.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Affair, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
Or another woman who could only use so much toilet paper.
You know, he is controlled to that extent, or it
wouldn't be allowed to have tampons or any aids like
that because he didn't believe in them. You know, so intimate, extraordinary,
deep levels of control, whereas other cause of controllers have
different things they like to control. But you know, that's
(41:24):
how specific it can get. And when you live in
that web, it's like a web, you go downhill mentally
and emotionally, and you can no longer keep up with it.
You can't stand up for yourself. You can't keep up
with it because it's constant. And that's the grooming.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Do you think do you think.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
As awful that as it is? Like women who suffer
physical violence, do you think it's easier for them to
leave than coursive control.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Well, at least they can say, well, you know he
did bash me. You know I've got this.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
You know, for other women, there might be nothing, no
physical nothing that indicates you know, what we might usually
think of as family violence. It's part of a terrible
There was no language, no language to articulate it.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
I heard of a terrible case of the Sunshine Coast.
I can't remember it as many many years ago. I
remember distinctively really playing on my mind. A family had
a very very violent father and there's kids as well.
I think he had broken every bone in the mum's body.
Oh you know, it was very non and they I think,
(42:39):
as a family, they ended up killing him. Like I
think the kids were involved, older kids, old older, and
they had him dead at a table and they make
meals around him because they could. Finally, she ended up
actually getting off. She didn't go to It's.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
Plenty of women didn't get off for doing that, even
though they said, if we didn't kill him, he would
have killed that's right, yes, because they didn't understand the
cause of control.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
So you know, that's like horrific when I think about it, terrific,
But the trauma they must have all suffered. Imagine, it's
funny to think it's funny that there they were able
to eat freely and he's there at the table.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (43:30):
Whether he would have been a tyrant at the dinner table.
I hear that a lot a tyrant in every part
of that, and a very scary tyrant.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
It was very well.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Every police police person knew how abusive he was. There
was probably no shock that she tim you know, And
yes she she she actually got off because of the
history and how terribly how many times she had been
basically nearly killed. And probably the kids too, because yeah,
(44:05):
I think they were older by the time this happened.
But I just never forget it and think, my gosh,
what goes on in someone's house. You don't know.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
You just don't know. We don't know, we don't know.
You know.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Have you heard of Evan Stark? No, He wrote the
first major book on coercive control. He's a world expert
in coersive control. He's now well into his eighties and
but he is well worth reading. And he was a
social worker and he worked with women who had killed
(44:41):
their partners, and he would say, you know what led
you to killing him? You know what was happening for you?
Because he was trying to make sense of their experience,
and they because he was interested in asking the right
questions of them, they did held their lives to him.
(45:02):
And so then he started to realize these women were
controlled within an inch of their life, and some of
them had never even been hit, but every part of
their life was controlled, and they were no longer you know,
the directors of their own life or their life story.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
He was.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
He was the director of it.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
And so he started to research this and then write
about it, and then wrote his book, Course of Control,
and it was a seminal book. Like everybody pounced on it.
I remember where I pounced on it too. And you
can also google him even he's on YouTube. He's got
(45:42):
a few things on YouTube. He's famous Evan Stark.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
So he was the one that drew attention to the
fact that these women would have been killed had they
not killed their partner, and they had reason to kill
their partner because it was to stay alive, right, yes,
and also to protect the children sometimes because you know,
he was violent with the children.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Violent with her.
Speaker 4 (46:05):
He was going to hurt them all, so in the
end to survive, they killed him.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
Is that something coercive control, say, narcissistic sort of personality.
Would they be making threats to somebody's family or to
keep someone there, like you know, if you leave me?
Oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Threats are very common that you know. They can be
very subtle threats, underhand threats, not quite said threats, very
very open and obvious threats. So you know, threats are
an art.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
They're an art form.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
You can threatn just by looking, just by a certain
body language and look on your face. You don't even
have to say it. So plenty of women have said
to me, I knew you know he had said almost said,
sometimes not quite that if I do the wrong thing,
then you know he knew people who who murdered. Oh,
(47:07):
it's just that they couldn't exactly charge him with it
or an think because it wasn't fully said, you know,
like veiled threats and also outright threats. You know, I
will see if her harm your family, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Straight up.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
It depends on the style of the course of controller,
how clever they are, and what kind of tactics they
use because they all use different tactics. But yes, you know,
the threats are often veiled, you know, threaten your professional reputation,
or to harm your friends, or threaten to harm your family,
(47:46):
or threaten to hurt the dog.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah. Yeah, oh wow. So if if someone's listening to
the podcast today who's in in a domestic situation, and
so they've tuned in to listen to you, what would
you what advice would you give them if they're looking
for a way out? What's the safest way to get out?
(48:13):
Be free? Be free, basically be fred.
Speaker 4 (48:16):
That's a really great question, and it is a hard
heart question. And if I would them, the first thing
I would do is to if they can't use their
own phone, because maybe their own phone is being tracked,
if they can even borrow someone else's phone for one
eight hundred respect, I should really look that number up
(48:39):
because I can never remember what that number is.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
It is.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
The one eight hundred seven three seven seven three two
sevent two. Yes, so one eight hundred seven three seven
seven three to two. Now it's a twenty four to
seven line, twenty four seven there, and it's it's managed
by people who understand domestic violence and course of control
(49:09):
and who can help connect you with the right helpful
where you live.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
So that's how do I get their hands on the phone,
Like if if they got some time to go shopping or.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Something exactly, you know, they exactly, they might have to
literally ask somebody. You can also message them. You don't
have to.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Just ring them.
Speaker 4 (49:33):
But you know, seven days a week, twenty four to seven,
you can do that. Now if you're being if you're
being covered that much, it can be extremely difficult to
find a phone or find freedom to talk to anybody.
You might have cameras in your house, so you're being monitored,
(49:56):
you're being surveilled. Your car might be tracked, your computer
might be tracked, your phone might be tracked. You may
not if for some women, you know, they may not
even be allowed outside. You know, it depends on what's
on what's going on in that in that family or
in that relationship. But seriously, to ring that number is
(50:21):
the first protocol, or even or even the police triple zero, yeah,
or or even triple zero. So just saying that their
phone is being tracked and they ring triple zero, well,
you know, it's about doing it.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
When you've got time and.
Speaker 4 (50:40):
Space, and you're on your own and you're able to
do it and making sure that the police comes straight
away or you get direct straight.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
Away help from one eight hundred respect. In other words,
you're The.
Speaker 4 (50:53):
Severity of the situation will determined on how you do this.
But you have every right too. They want you to
call all they want to know, because no one has
the right to frighten you like this, to keep you
so controlled that you don't have any rights to ring
who you want, when you want and ask for the
help you need. Could you go to a neighbor. You
(51:15):
can go to a neighbor and ask them to do it.
You can ask someone in the street to do it,
you know, if you can just get away, get a
little bit of space and ask someone to do it
for you.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's just terrific to think
that there actually are people in this situation. It's just
so hard. I know there are those, because I.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Know one, I don't know one.
Speaker 4 (51:38):
It's so it's common. Funnily enough, it's actually quite common.
Isn't that terrible to think? I mean, people will be
tightly controlled with the choker chain, you know, so to speak,
but they are they are living in coosive control and
living in a lot of their devices are being monitored
and surveiled, and they are expected to explain themselves.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Even know, I even know, to be fair, I even
know one male that was suffering it.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, it can happen to any gender.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
Act I do know. I do know a male that
was getting listened to every conversation was being recorded with
a camera or I know, like I woudn'tbelieve. It's like,
are you do you know what that is? Like my gosh,
you're a big man. Like still same thing happening from
(52:32):
a female to a male controlling what was listening what
was being said. And I'm like, wow, you know you
think that would be enough to go see her later? No,
still there still there that was It's against the law
to do that to someone. Actually against the law.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
It is actually against the law.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
But it's it's very difficult to prove that that's what
happened to But it is now becoming more and more common.
There are people now who can look at your phone,
look at your computer and tell you whether you're being
tracked and surveil and monitored or.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
All who to get to do that.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
It can all be used.
Speaker 4 (53:12):
For evidence one eight hundred. Respect will tell you a
number of people who will do it, and they are
so clever they can actually determine whether you're being tracked
or not. And you see all of that's evidence for
the court.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
Wow. And and also if your car is being tracked wow.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Yeah. So if is it now law it's a jalable
offense coercive control. I mean, I know it would take.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
A criminal yea. It is in some states, not every state.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Queensland it definitely is.
Speaker 4 (53:45):
I know that, and Adelaide. I think South Australia are
working on it. You know, I think we're starting to
really you know, every state is that in a different
phase of criminalizing it.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
I think New South Wales is now too New South
Wales now. But I mean, of course to have to
gather so much evidence.
Speaker 4 (54:11):
Well, a lot of lawyers have said to me, you know,
how do we get the evidence of this? And I said,
you know what, you're going to have to work that out.
You're the lawyers. You know, you can't not provide the
evidence because you don't know how it's really it's really
I'm just going to look at which states New South
(54:33):
Wales and Queensland have criminalized, yes, and I think where
South Australia is on the way.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
How about ACT.
Speaker 3 (54:44):
Yeah, I think they're on the way.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
I think most streets are eventually going to criminalize it.
Speaker 3 (54:50):
But it's you know, it takes.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Quite a lot of work, Yes, it would, yes, gathering
you know, but you just have to gather up every message, every.
Speaker 4 (55:01):
You know. They're also asking the person the woman would
have a gender is you know what are you allowed
to do? What aren't you allowed to do? What were
you allowed to say? What weren't you allowed to say?
You know? What happened in the financial arrangements, what happened
in the sexual relationship, what happened physically between them both?
(55:22):
You both, how did you manage the social your social life?
Speaker 3 (55:27):
You know, what would happen there?
Speaker 4 (55:28):
Oh? Well, you know he could go out whatever it,
do whatever he liked. He could have affairs. But I was,
I was told I was.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
I've had I had disappear for twelve difs disappear for
twelve hours.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
Yeah, yeah, all that he.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
Can disappear for twelve hours, no contact whatsoever, and then
appear again.
Speaker 4 (55:47):
Credible double standards, Like I can do what I want,
But you like, I can spend what I like. You're
on a very tight budget and you come to me
and you request money and say why you need it,
But I'll spend what I like. You know, so you
can actually map all of that around every domain of
the relationship. But what was allowed, what wasn't allowed, How
(56:07):
is it how you stopped? What were the tactics used?
You know what I'm saying. It's not like we can't
get the the pattern of course of control quite easily.
Even if the even if the style of course of
control was fairly under you know, more under the radar
(56:27):
than an obvious one. You know, you can still.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Map it lots of for everyone listening. You know, the signs, signs,
especially for the family. The family are usually generally onto
it straight away when something's are miss square.
Speaker 4 (56:47):
Well, everyone else will see it, but not necessary.
Speaker 2 (56:51):
No, they won't see it.
Speaker 3 (56:52):
And you know.
Speaker 4 (56:55):
Everyone else they're in a cult, except for the person
in a.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Cult for ten years. Oh not eventually came out of it,
but they all knew. And it took ten years for
her to finally leave that situation. But I've heard it
soon as I've been saying, I'm going to speak to you,
it's like the conversations are coming. It's like wow. So
(57:18):
you know, for people listening, you know, I think, don't
give up, just be there and reach out. You know,
the old saying, Oh, she's chosen, she's chosen this.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
She didn't choose to be abused. No, no way controlled.
Speaker 4 (57:33):
No one chows that. It doesn't ever start off like that.
I mean, you can buy my book just to give
my little book.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Absolutely the words and.
Speaker 3 (57:45):
No one can see us.
Speaker 4 (57:47):
This is all no, this is all audio. Yes, so
it's The subtitle is a Breakthrough Guide to Conversational and
coercive Control and Relationships.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
It's quite as it's not.
Speaker 4 (58:00):
Quite a simple book, and it explains how it happens,
what happens in the conversations, and how the relationship will unfold.
And people tell me when they've read it it's like, gosh,
you know that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
But also how.
Speaker 4 (58:17):
Difficult it is to get a coercively controlling partner to understand,
respond properly or agree to anything.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
They won't.
Speaker 4 (58:30):
How they're just unworkable and yet they can be great publicly.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
Wow. So where can we buy the book?
Speaker 4 (58:39):
You can just buy it on Amazon, Tangled Web of words.
Put it in Amazon and it will come up as
kindle or printed book.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
Oh you know what, doctor Thoma, I need to get
you on. A very good friend of mine's got a
new platform called Booklee. Your book would be brilliant on that.
Speaker 3 (58:57):
Yeah, I would be lovely. Yeah. I think she would
highlight you as an author too, Yeah, brilliantly. That would
be great.
Speaker 4 (59:04):
It's it's it's sort of my last ditch effort to
try and explain coursive controls.
Speaker 3 (59:11):
That you don't really get it.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
I know a lot of people throw the word around
but don't really know what it means.
Speaker 4 (59:17):
Yeah, and it's understandable they don't know what it really means.
But because we've never really been big on understanding how well,
first of all, how men used to control women, women
used to own men used to own women, right absolutely, now,
now it's really it's those same behaviors, but it played
out in intimate relationships no matter what, basically often between
(59:39):
male and female, but also between.
Speaker 2 (59:42):
Same sex yes, same sex relationships.
Speaker 4 (59:44):
Yeah, it's the same passion. It's the same passion of abuse,
of domination, of disempowering, as is used.
Speaker 3 (59:52):
In any form of abuse.
Speaker 4 (59:56):
It's not it's just how we dominate someone cultly, just
use it. Prisoners of war get treated like that. Organizations
treat whistleblowers in the same sort of way, you know,
they start to just control life.
Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
You know, it's the same tactics.
Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
So for anyone to be experiencing being controlled and feeling
bad about it, it's like most of the world is
experiencing it in some way, shape or form. Coercive control
is between intimate partners, yes, but we experience the same
sort of tactics at work, you know, place country control,
(01:00:36):
it takes over and colonizes another country, same process.
Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Yes, you know, doctor Torner, thank you so much for
coming on pure great and it's you know, it's it's
been on my mind all year to tackle coercive control,
really has been.
Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
Thank you for asking me.
Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Yeah, you've got a lot of friends in really tricky situations.
Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Well that they would if they were here, they'd all
be coming to the mic, and that would be coming
to the mic and sent to you. This is what
I just I'm you know, they were saying, Okay, we
need to do a podcast on it. That's how much
I get asked we should actually do a podcast just
on domestic abuse and conversive control. Like I'm like, wow,
(01:01:22):
you know, I thought, well, no, I'm going to tackle
this on pure grit because there are people listening who
you know what, You're going to have the grit to
get out, You're going to have it. You've got grit
to be surviving it. You can survive, and you can
get out and you can be free.
Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
You can.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
And you think you have to be smart about it.
I think there has to be.
Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
You've got to protect your safety, your physical and your
emotional safety, and that can be a journey, but that's
your right. Yeah, have the right to be protected as
you're leaving, and then you have the right to take
your mind back and your body back for yourself. Yeah,
and it's a process, it doesn't doesn't always take that long,
(01:02:03):
but you have the right to do that. That's your
birthright is to come here. And you know, you're your
own country. You govern your own country. You don't let
someone who's another country come in and take over your
country and govern your own country.
Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
And it's not why you fell in love or why
it happened, But there are a lot of women that
are targeted purely for their kind heart and they're giving
nature and it turns.
Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
Well also their resources, what they can offer, what they
can offer financially, sexually, in terms of you know, it's
kind of handy, you know if you really have got
that mindset and you just think, well, you know, that
woman will give me an easy life.
Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
That's right, I don't have to do anything. Yeah, thank
you so lovely to meet you.
Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
Lovely to meet you too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Thank you for helping us tackle this very tough subject.
Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Well thee Thanks for listening to Pure Grip with Paul McGrath.
Now the web guy's been a very busy boy. You
can now visit the website pure Grit dot com dot au,
search Pure Group podcast on Facebook and Instagram for the
fun behind the scenes stuff. And I was wondering why
Paul had started wearing makeup. Turns out all the chats
are now on YouTube as well, so make sure you
give that a subscribe
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