October 14, 2023 • 49 mins
Join us for an eye-opening discussion with acclaimed film and television director, Stephen Gyllenhaal. Our conversation primarily revolves around his latest work, Uncharitable, a groundbreaking documentary that strikes at the heart of traditional views on charity operations. We embark on a thought-provoking exploration of gender disparity in the non-profit sector, the constraints that hinder charities' effectiveness, and how these elements inspired the film's creation.
Our conversation with Stephen takes an incisive look at non-profit organizations, their struggles, and their indispensable role in society. We challenge the status quo, discussing the necessity for attracting top talent, offering competitive pay, and granting the respect that these individuals deserve. Moreover, we dive into the deeper psychological underpinnings of the charitable sector and even confront its potential dark side. We question the true nature of corruption, the importance of watchdog organizations, and the need for a revised perspective on charity.
As we wind down, Stephen shares his personal experience with the AIDS Rides and the invaluable life advice he's passed on to his son. We touch upon the much-anticipated premieres of Uncharitable in New York and Los Angeles, and the plans for its Canadian release. Don't miss this stimulating conversation filled with revolutionary insights into the charitable sector and its untapped potential. This is not just an interview; it's a call to action for a brighter, more charitable future. Tune in now!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, this is Pushing Boundaries, a podcast
about pioneering research,breakthrough discoveries and
unconventional ideas.
I'm your host, Dr.
Thomas R Verny.
My guest today is StephenGyllenha al, film and television
director, writer and producer.
Stephen is Swedish, of Swedishand English Descent.
(00:29):
Through his father, he is amember of the Gyllenhaal family,
and I have to say this becauseI've never before, or perhaps
never after, will have on myprogram a descendant of the
cavalry officer Nils Gunnisonhaal, who was ennobled in 1652 by
(00:50):
Queen Christina of Sweden, whoconfirmed upon him the crest and
family name Gyllenhaal.
Stephen's producing creditsinclude Chattered Mind about a
woman with dissociative identitydisorder, and feature
documentaries, exquisite,continent on Dream
(01:10):
Interpretation and In Uteroabout prenatal psychology.
Stephen interviewed me for thismovie, and that's how we first
met.
Stephen is also a publishedpoet.
Among his other credits isbeing the father of actress
Maggie Gyllenhaal and actor JakeGyllenhaal.
(01:30):
A few years ago, we made acareer pivot, as they say
nowadays, and founded theIdentity Development Institute
in Los Angeles, which provides anovel form of psychotherapy.
We have talked about this thelast time I had you on my
podcast, right.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yes, yep.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Right, but today, today, I want to talk with you,
stephen, if I may call youStephen.
Yes, yes, yes, thank you, aboutyour most recent, very exciting
venture, the DocumentaryUncharitable.
Dr David Ho, time Magazine manof the Year 1996, and former
(02:11):
president of Harvard University,has said of this film, and I
quote what scales would ournonprofit organizations have to
achieve to eradicate the greatsocial problems that confront us
, and how do our traditions andbeliefs about charity stand in
(02:32):
their way?
Uncharitable, which is the nameof this movie that you are,
that you have just finishedproducing, has elevated the
question we need to be asking.
It provocatively challengestraditional views of how
charities should operate andprovide a thought-provoking
alternative.
End of quote.
(02:52):
So, stephen, thank you forbeing here and welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Thank you for inviting me.
It's, as usual, delight.
We've had a lot of fun over theyears.
Yes, through, you know, pushingthe boundaries.
Yes, being out of the box.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yes, yes, yes.
So tell me, tell me about thisfilm.
Whatever you know, whicheverway you want to attack it, Tell
me about the film.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
It started because a friend of mine, dan Pilata, had
created and really really turnedinto a major operation the AIDS
rides in the 90s when AIDS wasdestroying the country, really
(03:43):
Right, and he raised over half abillion dollars of unrestricted
funds for AIDS and then he wasdestroyed and I knew him during
that whole period of time.
He was destroyed because heworked outside the box, the
closed box of how one functionsin the nonprofit sector, which
is essentially and I mayruminate a little bit today on
(04:03):
it because I've been thinkingabout it a lot recently
essentially the idea is youvolunteer, you sacrifice your
life for the good of others.
It's a sort of you know,sackcloth and ashes approach you
don't ask for much but you're agood person and I'm, and I
think one of the things thatseems to be true and has been
(04:25):
true all the way along is thatit's been seen sort of as a my
granddaughter would not like meto use this phrase feminine,
because she says grandpa, whatdo you mean by feminine?
Well, what I mean by the oldinterpretation of it was someone
who's humble, who doesn't talktoo much, who is loving, gentle
and good.
And in fact, the nonprofit, themission driven, the charitable
(04:50):
sector has been primarilypopulated by women, while, of
course, the for-profit sectorhas been primarily, until
recently, populated by men, andso has government, and really
the three sectors that reallymove anything forward or
backwards, for that matter arethese major forces.
(05:12):
The for-profit sector is verypowerful and robust, the
government sector, which also isquite powerful, and the
for-profit, the charitablesector, and down through the
last three or 400 years, thecharitable sector has played a
part, but it's always been at aprofound disadvantage.
Because you can't spend anymoney on marketing, you can't be
(05:36):
robust, you can't, you can'ttake risks, you can't take time
to build an organization,because it's you take the time
and you don't give the money tothe poor or for climate change
or for whatever.
You're quickly seen as someonewho's taking advantage of the
situation and using the moneyfor yourself, which is what
happened to Dan, which wasentirely not true.
And when Dan and I who, as Isaid, knew each other for a long
(05:59):
time began to talk after I didthe movie in utero, actually,
which you're in, and I began toplay with the idea of the
documentary, I didn't quite feelthere was enough there, even
though his story is verydramatic.
But when he told me about anumber of other people who'd
gone through exactly the samething very successful, raised a
lot of money, were aggressive,took risks and accomplished
(06:23):
major, major, major, you knowchanges in whatever sector they
were working in.
I began to say there's aproblem here and there's a movie
here.
So that's when I really startedto make it it was seven years
ago really and through apandemic and through my really
coming to understand howcritical this film could be, we
(06:49):
finally got the film finishedand it's coming out in September
September 21st we're premieringin New York and then we'll be
theatrically showing the film inNew York and then we go to
Washington DC for a VIPscreening.
Then the next week we're in LosAngeles doing another premiere
and we'll slowly spread the filmout across the country.
(07:10):
And what's happened already, aswe've been nearing the end of
the film, is charitableorganizations across the country
have started to see the filmand we want to not have too many
of them see it, but we wantenough people to see it and we
have to have them very excitedabout how this can really change
pretty much everything.
(07:30):
And once the charitable sectorhas changed, it can impact the
nonprofit sector to be moreattentive to the fact that they
should be participating inmission-driven charitable work
as well, and the government canbegin to be influenced to change
, to work on legislation thatcan make the charitable sector
(07:53):
10 million people in the UnitedStates.
It will be released also inCanada.
We're working on that right now, so it'll be across Canada.
How it's gonna changepotentially change the world so
that's why I made it.
That's in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
What's the difference between charitable and
not-for-profit?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
No difference, I mean , I think, not-for-profit or
nonprofit, but not-for-profit isbetter.
They are not focused on profit,I'd say.
The difference would be, though, that some of the
not-for-profit organizationshave been more aggressive about
using so-called capitalism tomove things forward.
(08:36):
Charity is this is a nuanceddefinition, but charity is more
reticent to be, has been morereticent to be kind of
aggressive, I'd say, and thenmission-driven is somewhere in
between, but it's really all thesame thing, and it's really
what we're trying to do is haveall these organizations be able
(08:59):
to be fully what they're capableof being.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So would the Red Cross, for example, be a
not-for-profit charitableorganization.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
The Red Cross would be not-for-profit, nonprofit,
charitable, mission-drivenorganization.
It's all those things, all ofthose things, and at times the
Red Cross has gotten intotrouble.
Every all these charities havegotten into trouble because when
they start to really functionaggressively and effectively, it
goes against the grain of whatwe feel charity should be.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And what is it that we feel charity should be?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I think, we feel it should be sort of humble.
It should do its job quietly.
The people should be doing itmainly voluntarily because it
feels good.
But you can't solve anythingwith that.
You can't, for instance, likeWounded Warriors, which is one
of the organizations that cameunder fire.
(09:56):
You can't have volunteers dealwith wounded soldiers.
You can't have volunteers dealwith wounds, either physically
or psychologically.
It doesn't and in fact it canmake a mess of everything and it
has at times.
Wounded Warriors spent a lot ofmoney on what we call overhead.
Right, it is doctors andpsychiatrists and programs that
(10:20):
really worked and that reallymade a difference for veterans.
But they got into big troubleand to do that you need to have
people overseeing it that areeffective.
You can't have volunteersoverseeing doctors.
You've got to haveprofessionals doing the job and
running hospitals.
You can't have volunteers doingthat.
So it's about really changingthe thinking and in a way, it
(10:45):
comes back to what you and Italk about from a psychological
perspective.
It's really attacking thesubject in a way from a
psychological perspective, whichis change the thinking.
Change the thinking andeverything else will follow.
When you change the way youthink, the things you think
(11:06):
about change.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So in your movie, how do you engage people
sufficiently so that after theyhave seen the movie they will
change their behavior?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, I think I like the fact that you use the term
movie rather than film, whichsort of implies foreign films.
So it's serious or documentary.
It is a documentary but I seeit more as a movie because I
tried very hard as a director tohave it be an emotional
experience Right, movies areemotional experiences and then
(11:47):
sends the audience through areal journey of first rage.
I think at what has been doneto some great people who have
been decimated, destroyed bymedia or by sort of people who
are holier than now, and then itsort of even speaks more to
(12:08):
well, why do we think this way?
What's going on?
And begins to explore thingslike why are we also?
Why is Hollywood, for instance,or books, a lot of things, but
Hollywood in particular, andthat means people flock to it.
Why are they fascinated by theend of the world, the apocalypse
that is all going to endterribly?
(12:28):
There are almost all moviesabout the future Are movies of
just ruination.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Ruination destruction , yeah, capitalism, yeah, why,
why are they?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
thinking that when we have the possibility of
profoundly impacting this world,solving problems no, they're
not simple.
Problems aren't simple.
The fires that are going on inCanada right now.
That's a simple issue noteasily resolved.
There's no one thing that'sgoing to solve it.
It takes brilliant minds, ittakes the best minds, and one of
(13:01):
the things that the documentaryspeaks to and I want to speak
to are two things.
One is the sector needs thevery, very best people in the
world working in the sector andthey need to be paid decently.
Sorry, that's what it's goingto take.
They need to be paid withrespect.
They need to have the money tomarket.
(13:22):
They need to have the money tohire people that are excellent,
and a lot of the people alreadyin the sector are the best
people.
There's some terrific people init, but they have no ability to
function effectively.
It's like they have a car, orthey have the.
It looks like a car, but theyhave no engine, they have no
(13:42):
wheels and they have no gasolineor oil.
They don't have anything toreally run that car.
So you have a sector that needsto have the best people in the
world doing it.
It has some of the best peoplein the world, but they are
hamstrung.
So it's kind of a simplesolution and it can solve, I
think, issues that have seemedintractable, because every
(14:04):
single challenge that we arefacing has nonprofits trying to
solve.
So that's why I got involvedwith it and, as you know, I have
my own nonprofit, my ownorganization, the Identity
Development Institute, which tome is digging into solving the
(14:28):
other I'm sorry or coming at thesame issue of how do we both
help this species survive, butalso, and probably more
importantly and probablydirectly connected with survival
, how do we help this species,how do we make our fellow men
and women thrive?
How do we make them thrive?
(14:49):
And while I think in charitableof critical importance, in
umbrellas, everything, and wecould really have a major shift,
equally important is thepsychological dynamics going on
with each and every person inall of these sectors.
But let's take the charitablesector as one.
And it became clear to me aftermaking the movie in utero, which
(15:12):
you are in and really helpedreally make clear how important,
how critically importantdevelopment is, from conception
through preverbal development,but particularly from conception
through birth.
You know, it's this thing thatcame to me yesterday and I'm not
(15:34):
sure I can describe it right,but it's the smaller you are
developmentally, the more globalthe impact is on you for the
rest of your life, and you'rethe most fragile when you're
tiny.
Global is global in terms ofhow it's going to effloresce
(15:54):
into the future.
At the same time, when you aretiny, nourishment and love and
connection and attention alsoimpacts the growing organism in
a global way, in a complete way.
So I'm very, very focused onmaking clear to everybody you've
(16:16):
got to go back and look at whathappened to you and experience,
if possible in deep memory,what happened to you really from
conception through preverbaldevelopment.
And the reason I'm so committedto the Institute is because we
have come up with, as you said,a novel psychological method,
but a method that, whenaddressed properly, is safe to
(16:42):
go back to a time when many ofus did not feel safe, and we're
not safe.
We were not safe back thenbecause people don't still know
what human beings really are andparticularly don't respect or
understand what you have.
What you talk about in the filmis incredible, miraculous being
that we are, as we'redeveloping, that can be so
(17:04):
quickly knocked off kilter.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So it's just following up on what you were
saying.
It's hard to be charitable ifyou feel shortchanged, right?
So I mean, if you're comingfrom a position of not enough,
then how could you possibly giveaway anything, because you are
(17:31):
already in a negative position?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I think it's very true.
I think it's once someone saidto me how can I go into a poor
neighborhood, work there with anice car?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I said well, you know who the people in these
neighborhoods look up to the NBAstars, the people who come in
with Cadillacs, the peoplewho've gone.
I'm celebrating my life.
I have a lot, I mean, I thinkit's not even material things,
but I think it is important tobe paid decently.
(18:09):
I mean it's not paid decently,but it's important for these
incredibly imaginative, creativepeople who are committed to
helping other people be giventhe environment to achieve what
they are dreaming to achieve.
And when they do it this iswhat the film is about they get
destroyed because you are notsupposed to do that.
(18:32):
Who is doing the destroying?
Well, the media does it a lot.
The media has attacked a lot ofthese.
Now, all the media is a sort oflens that has been created by
the populace.
I mean the media is not goingto talk about anything that
(18:53):
doesn't bring in money.
I mean the media is afor-profit entity.
So I think sometimes they tryto do right.
They try to do the right thatthe mainstream generally feels
is right.
And what the mainstream feelsis right is that charity should
be humble.
I should feel good when I givemy money.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
And that should be enough, and that should be
enough right.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I want to feel good and I get that.
And I don't feel good.
Giving to the CEO's salaryRight, you go to the homeless
person, you're going.
Well then, why are you givingit to a charity?
Just go over and give the moneyto the homeless person, right.
But the problem is the homelessperson has psychological issues
.
For instance, I mean, 40% ofthe homeless in Skid Row and Los
(19:43):
Angeles are war veterans whoare not getting the protection
and support they need, havingdone what they've been through.
So you go.
You can't.
If you want to give your moneyto just anybody, just give it to
the homeless and feel goodabout it.
Do you feel good about itReally when you're handed to
someone who's standing on thestreet with nothing?
(20:03):
Is that the way to solve theproblem?
Does that really make you feelgood?
No, what makes you feel good isunderstanding what an
organization is doing, evenmaybe participating in it.
And I think one of the thingsthe film is also about is the
joy of being with other peopleand giving to other people, the
(20:23):
psychological uplift that takesplace.
When you say I think two thingshappen the psychological uplift
of being there for somebodyelse, and when you're there with
them, you begin to realizethey're no different than I am.
Number one that makes yougrateful that you are where you
are, yes, and so it makes aconnection with someone who is
(20:49):
fascinating.
I mean, some of the mostinteresting people, who have
lived the most dramatic livesthat would make movies, are the
people who are homeless, forinstance.
You know, you begin to realizethat everyone is interesting and
human and you begin to have ahope.
I think that's what begins tohappen, and I certainly have
emerged making this movie with aprofound sense of hope.
(21:11):
Not that it's going to be easyNow.
There are going to be morefires, there's going to be more
wars, there are all those kindsof things.
But I'm going to put my weightbehind trying to bring about
real change and I think this isthe two ways, core ways of doing
it.
One is really get this film outthere, have people see it, have
their minds changed, have theirhearts changed, and also then
(21:35):
to anyone who wants to come tothe Institute and explore their
early formation, both the goodand the bad of it, because we
can get back there now.
Right, that's to me fun.
I mean it's a fun life.
I have moments of despair,certainly, like all of us.
But I come out of them now andgo right back up to wow, this is
(21:57):
an amazing universe, you know,sort of like the brighter the
sunlight, the darker the shadows.
Yes, so the shadows are dark,but there's so much sunlight.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Why is it called uncharitable instead of
charitable?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Well, we're playing with something that we're still
working on it.
It's based on a book calledUncharitable.
Dan's book was calledUncharitable and I think for a
while I wasn't sure that wasright because I went.
This is a movie whose messageis ultimately profoundly hopeful
and even joyful, right what cancome.
(22:37):
But the fact is that the sectoris still suffering from so much
uncharitable action around itthat it's much better.
And then the other thing isit's interesting is thinking
about calling a movie charity.
Just what does that feel like?
What it feels like is kind ofgoody, two shoes ring, not a
(23:04):
really interesting story, andone of the things it's like
charity is kind of boring thatpeople are doing it.
They're kind of like oh, youfeel better than me.
Oh, you know, there's a levelof yuck around it.
Uncharitable has charity in it,yes, but it has that sort of
Hollywood thing, I guess, whereyou're going into something
(23:26):
that's going to be kind of aroller coaster and adventure.
The thing is maybe puttingparentheses around the on, but
we haven't quite decided yet.
You end in parentheses, sort oflike a dynamic.
So we're playing with some ofthose things.
A little time left, but I thinkit's a.
It's a good question, butthat's the reason, because still
, the world is primarilyuncharitable.
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
(23:46):
Get rid of the UN and make itcharitable.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, no, I think I think you're right.
I mean, I have dealt withtitles for books for a long time
and you definitely want to havea title that is not totally
straightforward, Like you knowthey should be.
Oh, what do they mean by that?
Yeah, yeah, and if the personcan kind of question it, then
(24:13):
you already have them hooked.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, so how do you?
How do you make a movie aboutan idea?
How do you go about making amovie that people will want to
watch for 90 minutes or whateverAbout an idea like charity and
charitable organizations and notfor profit?
(24:38):
How do you go about that?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Well, to me, I mean, I've made primarily narrative
films in my life Mm hmm, and ina way, in utero, the film that
you were in was about an idea,mm hmm, to a great extent.
But the idea has to be aboutpeople.
I mean, what's the step?
What's an idea separated frompeople?
So the answer really is tellthe story of people.
(25:02):
Oh, tell the story of heroes,yes, who are destroyed.
Yes, the hero's journey, thehero's journey, it's really the
hero's journey, and the hero'sjourney really is.
Ultimately, out of the ashescomes the idea.
So, in a way, there's a senseof charity, there's a sense of
all this.
There's people are idealistic,they go into this, they go
(25:24):
through the hero's journey ofinto the fire, and what comes
out is a new idea of charitywhich is much tougher.
My grandmother, my grandmother,my granddaughter would would
sort of be upset with me too,but something that's that's more
male, maybe, or rather, I think, rather than that, because most
of the strongest people I knoware women anyway.
(25:45):
So it's time to give up.
But what I want sexy to be Well, I want what I want charity to
be is that other word sexy?
I want it to become a sexy Cool.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
See, you want it to be cool, right Cool?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, and I think the people who you know, as I was
making, as I was working withall these people in the film and
there's some really importantpeople in the film, I mean
Edward Norton was has been a bigdeal in the charitable sector.
Darren Walker, who's presidentof the Ford Foundation.
Scott Harrison, who is awonderfully charismatic Dory
McWhorter in Chicago, who isspectacular you cannot get Dory
(26:27):
in Chicago to ever be negative.
She said, well, you know, herchildhood was tough.
And she said, well, you know,some people might have thought
whatever they thought about mychildhood, but that it was not
all, not all positive.
She can't, you can't get her tobe negative, she's just
positive and she's tough asnails.
So what I what I love about thefilm as it sort of unfolded was
(26:52):
the emergence of seven or eightpeople who are heroic and flawed
here and there in ways, butgenerally really heroic and and
you see them go through thisjourney and that becomes really,
I think, an interestingexperience and also, I think,
the idea.
(27:12):
As best I can, I think we'vesucceeded moving the audience at
a certain time towards despair.
I mean the whole, the world'sgonna end, it's all terrible,
everything's terrible, and thenslowly going down into the
shadows.
Really, you know that's yougotta be a movie maker, you
gotta entertain.
You know, right, go down intothe shadows, which are real, and
then slowly come back up againIn your.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
In your summary, in your summary of the movie, which
is on your website, you saythat this feature documentary
exposes the dark side ofphilanthropy.
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It's the part that, well, it's interesting because
people say, oh, you're making amovie about documentary.
Oh, they're all so corrupt,they're all using the money for
whatever.
You know, I so many times I'veheard that I'm going.
You really believe that, don'tyou?
I mean, and the news does thatyou know, oh, my, this guy's no,
darren Walker, who's the headof the Ford Foundation, who
followed all these these things,says 99.9% of charities do what
(28:15):
they set out to do, 99.9%.
And there's this 1% which welove to look at and I wonder
sometimes if it's and I thinkI've sort of explored this
enough to go.
Well, people mostly aren'tprepared to sacrifice their
lives and a livelihood and, youknow, put their children in a
(28:38):
much less good school or theylive in a less good environment.
They don't want to do it, to dogood.
It's too much to ask.
So anyone who's actually doingit, it's got to be kind of weird
.
So I think that people don'tsort of like the people in this
sector.
In a way.
It's like there's a kind ofedginess like I'm not doing it,
(29:01):
and it makes them sort of almostfeel guilty.
I think, you know, I don't have, oh, I would do it, but I don't
have enough time and there'sthis sort of edginess to it and
I think that, as a consequence,they're willing to embrace that
the dark side of charity iscorruption and the charity which
is not the case.
The dark side of charity iseverything around charity that
(29:21):
holds it down.
It's everyone, everyone, thenews, the there are these
watchdog organizations.
It's like there are morewatchdog organizations on
charities than there areboosters of charities.
You know they're there and theycan't really do it.
I mean, the problem is this isa whole nother conversation, in
(29:42):
a way, but the watchdogorganizations that people go to,
you know, like charitynavigator and these kinds of
things, have very, very limitedstaff.
So they can't really dig in andsee whether an organization, a
nonprofit, not-for-profit,mission-driven charitable
organization, is really doingits job effectively, as opposed
(30:04):
to the for-profit sector wherethere is millions and millions
of dollars spent on analyzing acompany's you know financials,
where it's headed, so on and soforth, before anyone invests in
them.
I mean, Wall Street is allabout that.
So it can't really be done inthe charitable organization.
So it just sort of you deal withthis phrase overhead.
(30:25):
If the overhead is X, you know,then it's okay, which means
nothing.
You know what, if the overheadis nothing and you have a soup
kitchen and it's serving rottenfood because you haven't had a
decent management in place,right right as high overhead,
but it's, they've raised a hugeamount of money, they're feeding
(30:47):
great food, they supply all theneeds of someone who's homeless
, but in terms of the charitynavigator, the only way they can
really look at it because theydon't have a big enough staff is
what's the overhead?
So it's, and they can function,because people have a sort of a
I don't trust.
Where do I go?
How do I do this?
What do I do?
I don't trust a lot of thesepeople so Well.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Trust has become a huge problem.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's funny that the onesector where you can trust the
most it's the charitable sector.
So, charity, you like Check itout, not because you're
suspicious, but because youwanna know if this is the
charity you wanna be involvedwith.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Meet people, hang out a little bit.
You do that and you feel good.
I mean, I've been in the sector, working in the sector now for
seven years on and off and Ihave my own, but more in making
the movie.
I've been around a lot of thesepeople.
You feel really good.
You do feel hopeful.
You can see they're burnt outand if you're not getting paid
well enough and you're not beingrespected you burn out after a
(31:48):
while.
But especially when you'redealing with major, what appear
to be intractable problems Isthat what you're doing, Sorry.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
So in order to make a movie, you need funding.
Yes, so did any of thesenon-for-profit organizations
contribute to the making of thismovie?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Well, you know, a foundation foundations could not
, because of their rules, putdonate any money into this film
because the film is 100%overhead.
There's nothing about this filmis going to anyone or it's just
changing everyone's mind.
So we had very, very difficulttime raising money.
(32:30):
I knew I was never gonna getinvestment money because it
started this documentary.
So it was like pulling teeth,yeah, and it was my really first
experience at trying to getdonations and it was a humbling
experience.
It was a humiliating experiencea lot.
It was a tough experience.
We did do it.
I had some great people helpingme.
In the end it was a movie.
(32:50):
So and you know I have areputation so we were slowly
able to put together.
But now we struggle.
So anyone who wants to putmoney into this movie for
marketing we've finished themovie you can just you can reach
out to Thomas and he can getyou to me.
I'm easily reachable if you gotcash.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
That's the movies, of course.
Stocks and bonds, or anything,anything at all, anything,
whatever, sure you wanna sellyour third house or fourth house
, go ahead and do it.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
You wanna feel good?
You wanna feel good, come toall those things.
Come on down, come on down.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Did you make any mistakes along the way, and how
did you recover from them?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I think the process of pretty much anything, thomas,
at this point, is all you do ismake mistakes, tons of mistakes
.
Then, by luck or just by themath of having made every single
possible mistake you could make, you find the right choice.
(33:54):
Then you go down that road andnow you have an intersection
with a whole bunch ofpossibilities and you make
mistakes going down all of them.
But if you're hardworking, ifyou're humble, and even if
you've been humiliated and youget yourself back up again, you
keep going you'll find the oneroad that was the right road to
go down.
(34:14):
I think in a way that's thesecret is knowing when you're
wrong, yes, then knowing whenyou're right, or it's even less
happy than that.
It's knowing when you're wrongand knowing when it's right,
because it might not even be youthat came up with what's right.
(34:37):
But the ability to know what'sright and be able to disconnect
from your own need to beterrific to know that you're
wrong.
I was wrong, a lot wrong all theway along life.
It's slowly we began to findour way.
(34:58):
The way is the heart.
A movie really works when it'sfrom the heart.
You have to be almost a childin a way to do that properly.
I think that comes back to whatI was saying earlier about the
most critical time is fromconception through preverbal
development.
That's where you really evolve.
(35:19):
The more you can get back tothat place in yourself that has
been shut down because of thepain that almost all of us felt
because no one knew how to raisekids Right.
Or you can get back to thatplace the more energy and power
and sophistication you have,ironically, and curiosity and a
willingness to be I'm wrong.
(35:39):
Okay, throw it out, start allover.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Well, you have to have guts to do that, yeah
that's true.
That's guts and perseverance.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
So do you have another project in mind for the
future?
What's your next project?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Well, you know, I was saying, you know how.
I think I use myself as anexample of what this work that
the Institute does.
I'm an example of what it wouldhave accomplished.
I don't really even hold myselfresponsible for what's going on
now with me, because I thinkthe deeper we go into all of
(36:20):
this, we don't even know wherewe begin and where the universe
is.
And what is this?
How did I evolve from where Icame from?
And I think also, as you godeeper and deeper into your own
childhood and back to thisperiod of time where I've gone
back, you realize you are somuch driven by epigenetics,
(36:41):
genetics not even DNA to somedegree, but epigenetics and
particular, which goes backgenerations with other people.
So what makes you makedecisions?
Well, are you really makingthese decisions fully yourself?
I think what was the question?
Again, I was just slipped outof my finger tip.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
The question was whether there were any problems
that well, any mistakes that youhave made, and how did you
recover from them.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Well, I think then you were asking do you have any
other projects?
Another project, right?
So what I would say is A, theInstitute number one, and we're
about to start scaling and goingmuch bigger because we really
have realized it really worksand we're kind of it's a
nonprofit but we're going toprobably spin off something to
be a for-profit.
Stay tuned.
I'm starting to do morepodcasts, like your podcast, and
(37:32):
I'm finding that I'm very mucha part of the trauma community
and very much linking up withall of that.
That's number one.
Number two I'm working on a TVshow, a TV series about it, that
involves a family in crisis andaliens.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
And aliens.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Aliens?
Okay, we are citizens of theuniverse.
We're not citizens of Canada orthe United States.
We're citizens of the universe.
And who says I mean, I'm surethere's something else going.
It's a massive universe, ohsure, yeah, I also work on a
musical now.
I'm finishing a memoir.
I'm probably coming out withanother book of poetry.
(38:10):
I have an eight-year-old, Ihave grandkids.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I have Luke, eight years old, luke.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
He's eight years old now, yeah, and I got to go take
him to basketball lessons andbasketball games, yeah, yeah.
So all of those things are.
I seem to be able to jugglethem all, I think because you
know internal family systems isan interesting has shed light a
(38:39):
lot on what we've uncovered, tothat trauma spits, the organism,
the being, the psyche, and ifyou can get access to all the
splits that are who you are,going back to the very beginning
, you can juggle a lot of things.
So I'm juggling a lot of thingsand I'm having a good time
doing it like a little kid,almost like a big big toy store
(39:02):
Buy whatever I want to, or it'sall free.
They just give me FAO Schwartzon Fifth Avenue and say you can
have everything you want, like,ok, I'll take that, that, that,
that, that, that.
So I'm doing all of thesethings, yeah, and it's fun.
Meanwhile, we're going out withthis movie.
You know It'll be in theaters.
It's between 50 and 125 citiesand if you are involved in a
(39:22):
charitable organization, reachout to us on
UncharitableMoviecom, but youknow hashtag UncharitableMovie,
check us out and join what Ithink is going to be a really,
really major mission thatinvolves A after this, probably
a TV series with movie stars andcelebrities talking about their
(39:44):
large charities and you know,and celebrities being in the
sports world or wherever, music,whatever and then probably
going back to what Dan did along time ago, which is a
gathering of people beingtogether.
I'm sort of describing it as aburning man that is on the move,
(40:05):
that has wonderful joyfulelement to it, which is raising
hundreds of millions of dollars,not just for one charity but
for many, but, almost moreimportantly, raising the
consciousness and lifting thehearts of the people that would
take part in it.
That's what Dan really learnedwhen he did the AIDS rides,
which really started all thisoff, which is it's the biggest
(40:27):
thing is not not so much raisingmoney, although it's critical,
because money is energy.
Finally, the biggest thing ispeople, connecting with people.
That also brings on mentalhealth and it's joy and it's fun
.
So so all of these things aresort of where I think we're
headed and that's why I'mhopeful.
Not that it's easy, it ain'teasy but it's not impossible
(40:50):
either, and that's the good news.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
So you have, you have an eight year old son, luke,
right, yeah, what?
What advice would you give himabout life at this moment, as
you have, as you have reachedthis stage, what are you about?
60, 73?
(41:14):
Really Well, you look like 60at the most, thank you, thank
you, congratulations.
You have done well, so okay.
So here you are at 72 andalmost 74, almost 74, almost 74.
You have lived 74 very excitingyears, very creative.
What would you say to him?
(41:35):
What kind of advice would yougive him about life?
I mean in, in, in, in the casethat perhaps you found out God
forbid that you have only youknow like a week to live.
So before you die, you want togive him the best advice you can
.
What would it be?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Well, you know you, you can't help at 74.
To have that thought in yourmind anyway, right?
So with all, with Luke and mygranddaughters and my kids, it's
a good question.
I think I'm working on a memoirand I'm really realizing it's a
(42:17):
lot for my loved ones.
Rough memoir in many ways.
There's a lot of complicatedthings in it, but I'm not sure
this is exactly right.
But there's a line that'scoming to mind right now and I
think it applies to Luke as itapplies to my other kids.
It doesn't apply to everybody,I don't think.
Yes, both Maggie and Jake andLuke found me privileged.
(42:40):
I think I have believed.
First of all, you know, it'snot what you say exactly is what
you do.
So we'll come back to what Imight say.
But I think it's more what youdo.
And I'm thinking about mygrandmother, one grandmother
that most of my grandparentswere loony tunes but she wasn't.
(43:01):
And she wrote some articlesfrom McCall's magazine which I
really want to find, about theimportance of chaos and raising
children.
It's really a critical piecewhich at the time was not
something I think you wouldembrace.
That too, you know.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
It's who you want to be.
Explore, be curious, Bewhatever you want to be.
I don't know what you should be.
You have to find that outyourself.
I'll be there for you as muchas I can.
But the thing that was comingto mind with him a little bit.
I wouldn't say this to him now,quite yet, but somebody said
recently there are only two waysto change the world.
(43:38):
And yeah, we got to work onchanging the world.
We can't drive ourselves crazyabout it.
You know, I'm not interested indoing that.
I'm going to play my part and Ihave a lot of energy, so I'm
going to do what I can, but onlyif it's fun, really.
But there are only two ways ofchanging the world Violence and
storytelling.
Who said this?
(44:01):
I don't know.
Somebody told me this thing andI just went.
That's really the truth, youknow, and when you see how
people are swayed on the right,the left, the center, whatever
it is it's the stories that aretold.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Well, this would be.
I just want to say this wouldbe incredibly popular right here
in Stratford.
Yes, of course, Of course.
Storytelling is.
Everything Like this is whathappens every day here in the
summer.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And it is.
It's really.
It's really what it is.
You know, stories have beentold since campfires, caves.
Stories have been told all theway along because they're about
human beings, human beingsbehave and how maybe they can
behave differently, although Ithink it takes generations to
really bring about change.
(44:50):
So he loves telling stories,just like Maggie and Jake, and
do, yeah, but you're in thattradition, he's in that
tradition.
So I'd say, yeah, he likes totype away on his.
Now he's already typing already, and so I'd say, tell the
stories that matter to you.
You know, learn the craft ifyou want.
Yes, yes, and, and I think, andhave a good time at it and
(45:16):
don't be a misery and despairand all those kinds of things.
You can't bury them, you got tobring them to the surface.
But if you bring them to thesurface, I believe underneath it
, you really find that at thecore of what we are, we're kind
of being held togethermolecularly, quantumly, I think,
by joy and love and some level,some version of that level of
energy.
As you look around at theuniverse and you go holy shit,
(45:39):
look at this place, prettyamazing.
Yes, yeah, telescope or myfather.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yes, so you mentioned at the beginning, before we
recorded, that there will bepremieres of your film also in
Canada.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Yes, yes.
So one thing I was going tomention.
You have one other project I'mworking on now is called the
universe sings.
I'm just starting.
It's a documentary abouteverything, has vibration to it,
everything resonates,everything is sending out data
and we can pick that data.
Yes, we can do that too.
So I'm starting, just starting.
I swear I was never going tomake another documentary, but
(46:19):
here I am back again becauseit's just too wonderful a form.
So the movie so, so, so A youcan get a new to online.
That's one movie.
You can see all my other movies.
Losing Isaiah of Twin Peaks,which I did tons and tons of
movies over the years, reallyhad a really great time.
You can go to Netflix and seeall my movies.
Just look up Jillian Hall.
(46:39):
Oh, wait, a minute.
Look up Jillian Hall.
Hmm, you're going to get Maggieand Jake.
They've made more movies thanme, which I'm very proud of.
So look up Jillian Hall and youcan just watch movies for a
month.
You want to see Uncharted at atheater?
It starts in New York onSeptember 21st.
There'll be, hopefully, a goodamount of information about it
(46:59):
before then in the news as westart to roll it out, and then
it'll be.
It'll roll out across thecountry.
So check out a theater new yearnear you, because I think
that's the other piece of this.
And going back to theaters,going back to seeing things with
other people it's like goinginto nature.
People say, oh, you should gointo nature.
That's a really good thing.
(47:19):
Go into a theater, you'resurrounded by nature.
You're surrounded by naturethat laughs, that cries with you
, it eats popcorn with you thatyou can get mad at, that you can
love, you can kiss in thetheater.
You can do, you can do anythingyou want in a theater.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
So you better stop before we get into a too deep
discussion In terms of thepremiere.
Please let me know when it'spremiering in Canada.
I would love to attend and Iwould like to tell my friends
about it, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
We're working on it.
We're working on getting it allstarted out.
I think a major company iscoming in to really release it
quite extensively across Canada.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Okay, okay, okay.
And like here in this theatertown of Stratford we always say
when we wish someone good luck,we say break a leg.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
We do that here, we do that in LA too, can you?
So let me say break a leg break, Stephen.
Thank you, it's so great totalk to you and I wish you
tremendous success I mean, Iknow it's going to be a great,
great success and also give myregards to Kathleen yes and
(48:35):
Luke, who I have never met, butI seem to almost know him from
talking to you.
I think there's some truth in that he's.
The apple doesn't fall far fromthe tree, Right right they roll
away in their own directions.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
So let's stay in touch, Stephen, and break a leg
and thank you, thank you, takecare, bye, bye.
Hello, this is Pushing Boundaries, a podcast
about pioneering research,breakthrough discoveries and
unconventional ideas.
I'm your host, Dr.
Thomas R Verny.
My guest today is StephenGyllenha al, film and television
director, writer and producer.
Stephen is Swedish, of Swedishand English Descent.
(00:29):
Through his father, he is amember of the Gyllenhaal family,
and I have to say this becauseI've never before, or perhaps
never after, will have on myprogram a descendant of the
cavalry officer Nils Gunnisonhaal, who was ennobled in 1652 by
(00:50):
Queen Christina of Sweden, whoconfirmed upon him the crest and
family name Gyllenhaal.
Stephen's producing creditsinclude Chattered Mind about a
woman with dissociative identitydisorder, and feature
documentaries, exquisite,continent on Dream
(01:10):
Interpretation and In Uteroabout prenatal psychology.
Stephen interviewed me for thismovie, and that's how we first
met.
Stephen is also a publishedpoet.
Among his other credits isbeing the father of actress
Maggie Gyllenhaal and actor JakeGyllenhaal.
(01:30):
A few years ago, we made acareer pivot, as they say
nowadays, and founded theIdentity Development Institute
in Los Angeles, which provides anovel form of psychotherapy.
We have talked about this thelast time I had you on my
podcast, right.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yes, yep.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Right, but today, today, I want to talk with you,
stephen, if I may call youStephen.
Yes, yes, yes, thank you, aboutyour most recent, very exciting
venture, the DocumentaryUncharitable.
Dr David Ho, time Magazine manof the Year 1996, and former
(02:11):
president of Harvard University,has said of this film, and I
quote what scales would ournonprofit organizations have to
achieve to eradicate the greatsocial problems that confront us
, and how do our traditions andbeliefs about charity stand in
(02:32):
their way?
Uncharitable, which is the nameof this movie that you are,
that you have just finishedproducing, has elevated the
question we need to be asking.
It provocatively challengestraditional views of how
charities should operate andprovide a thought-provoking
alternative.
End of quote.
(02:52):
So, stephen, thank you forbeing here and welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Thank you for inviting me.
It's, as usual, delight.
We've had a lot of fun over theyears.
Yes, through, you know, pushingthe boundaries.
Yes, being out of the box.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yes, yes, yes.
So tell me, tell me about thisfilm.
Whatever you know, whicheverway you want to attack it, Tell
me about the film.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
It started because a friend of mine, dan Pilata, had
created and really really turnedinto a major operation the AIDS
rides in the 90s when AIDS wasdestroying the country, really
(03:43):
Right, and he raised over half abillion dollars of unrestricted
funds for AIDS and then he wasdestroyed and I knew him during
that whole period of time.
He was destroyed because heworked outside the box, the
closed box of how one functionsin the nonprofit sector, which
is essentially and I mayruminate a little bit today on
(04:03):
it because I've been thinkingabout it a lot recently
essentially the idea is youvolunteer, you sacrifice your
life for the good of others.
It's a sort of you know,sackcloth and ashes approach you
don't ask for much but you're agood person and I'm, and I
think one of the things thatseems to be true and has been
(04:25):
true all the way along is thatit's been seen sort of as a my
granddaughter would not like meto use this phrase feminine,
because she says grandpa, whatdo you mean by feminine?
Well, what I mean by the oldinterpretation of it was someone
who's humble, who doesn't talktoo much, who is loving, gentle
and good.
And in fact, the nonprofit, themission driven, the charitable
(04:50):
sector has been primarilypopulated by women, while, of
course, the for-profit sectorhas been primarily, until
recently, populated by men, andso has government, and really
the three sectors that reallymove anything forward or
backwards, for that matter arethese major forces.
(05:12):
The for-profit sector is verypowerful and robust, the
government sector, which also isquite powerful, and the
for-profit, the charitablesector, and down through the
last three or 400 years, thecharitable sector has played a
part, but it's always been at aprofound disadvantage.
Because you can't spend anymoney on marketing, you can't be
(05:36):
robust, you can't, you can'ttake risks, you can't take time
to build an organization,because it's you take the time
and you don't give the money tothe poor or for climate change
or for whatever.
You're quickly seen as someonewho's taking advantage of the
situation and using the moneyfor yourself, which is what
happened to Dan, which wasentirely not true.
And when Dan and I who, as Isaid, knew each other for a long
(05:59):
time began to talk after I didthe movie in utero, actually,
which you're in, and I began toplay with the idea of the
documentary, I didn't quite feelthere was enough there, even
though his story is verydramatic.
But when he told me about anumber of other people who'd
gone through exactly the samething very successful, raised a
lot of money, were aggressive,took risks and accomplished
(06:23):
major, major, major, you knowchanges in whatever sector they
were working in.
I began to say there's aproblem here and there's a movie
here.
So that's when I really startedto make it it was seven years
ago really and through apandemic and through my really
coming to understand howcritical this film could be, we
(06:49):
finally got the film finishedand it's coming out in September
September 21st we're premieringin New York and then we'll be
theatrically showing the film inNew York and then we go to
Washington DC for a VIPscreening.
Then the next week we're in LosAngeles doing another premiere
and we'll slowly spread the filmout across the country.
(07:10):
And what's happened already, aswe've been nearing the end of
the film, is charitableorganizations across the country
have started to see the filmand we want to not have too many
of them see it, but we wantenough people to see it and we
have to have them very excitedabout how this can really change
pretty much everything.
(07:30):
And once the charitable sectorhas changed, it can impact the
nonprofit sector to be moreattentive to the fact that they
should be participating inmission-driven charitable work
as well, and the government canbegin to be influenced to change
, to work on legislation thatcan make the charitable sector
(07:53):
10 million people in the UnitedStates.
It will be released also inCanada.
We're working on that right now, so it'll be across Canada.
How it's gonna changepotentially change the world so
that's why I made it.
That's in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
What's the difference between charitable and
not-for-profit?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
No difference, I mean , I think, not-for-profit or
nonprofit, but not-for-profit isbetter.
They are not focused on profit,I'd say.
The difference would be, though, that some of the
not-for-profit organizationshave been more aggressive about
using so-called capitalism tomove things forward.
(08:36):
Charity is this is a nuanceddefinition, but charity is more
reticent to be, has been morereticent to be kind of
aggressive, I'd say, and thenmission-driven is somewhere in
between, but it's really all thesame thing, and it's really
what we're trying to do is haveall these organizations be able
(08:59):
to be fully what they're capableof being.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So would the Red Cross, for example, be a
not-for-profit charitableorganization.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
The Red Cross would be not-for-profit, nonprofit,
charitable, mission-drivenorganization.
It's all those things, all ofthose things, and at times the
Red Cross has gotten intotrouble.
Every all these charities havegotten into trouble because when
they start to really functionaggressively and effectively, it
goes against the grain of whatwe feel charity should be.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And what is it that we feel charity should be?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I think, we feel it should be sort of humble.
It should do its job quietly.
The people should be doing itmainly voluntarily because it
feels good.
But you can't solve anythingwith that.
You can't, for instance, likeWounded Warriors, which is one
of the organizations that cameunder fire.
(09:56):
You can't have volunteers dealwith wounded soldiers.
You can't have volunteers dealwith wounds, either physically
or psychologically.
It doesn't and in fact it canmake a mess of everything and it
has at times.
Wounded Warriors spent a lot ofmoney on what we call overhead.
Right, it is doctors andpsychiatrists and programs that
(10:20):
really worked and that reallymade a difference for veterans.
But they got into big troubleand to do that you need to have
people overseeing it that areeffective.
You can't have volunteersoverseeing doctors.
You've got to haveprofessionals doing the job and
running hospitals.
You can't have volunteers doingthat.
So it's about really changingthe thinking and in a way, it
(10:45):
comes back to what you and Italk about from a psychological
perspective.
It's really attacking thesubject in a way from a
psychological perspective, whichis change the thinking.
Change the thinking andeverything else will follow.
When you change the way youthink, the things you think
(11:06):
about change.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So in your movie, how do you engage people
sufficiently so that after theyhave seen the movie they will
change their behavior?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Well, I think I like the fact that you use the term
movie rather than film, whichsort of implies foreign films.
So it's serious or documentary.
It is a documentary but I seeit more as a movie because I
tried very hard as a director tohave it be an emotional
experience Right, movies areemotional experiences and then
(11:47):
sends the audience through areal journey of first rage.
I think at what has been doneto some great people who have
been decimated, destroyed bymedia or by sort of people who
are holier than now, and then itsort of even speaks more to
(12:08):
well, why do we think this way?
What's going on?
And begins to explore thingslike why are we also?
Why is Hollywood, for instance,or books, a lot of things, but
Hollywood in particular, andthat means people flock to it.
Why are they fascinated by theend of the world, the apocalypse
that is all going to endterribly?
(12:28):
There are almost all moviesabout the future Are movies of
just ruination.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Ruination destruction , yeah, capitalism, yeah, why,
why are they?
Speaker 2 (12:40):
thinking that when we have the possibility of
profoundly impacting this world,solving problems no, they're
not simple.
Problems aren't simple.
The fires that are going on inCanada right now.
That's a simple issue noteasily resolved.
There's no one thing that'sgoing to solve it.
It takes brilliant minds, ittakes the best minds, and one of
(13:01):
the things that the documentaryspeaks to and I want to speak
to are two things.
One is the sector needs thevery, very best people in the
world working in the sector andthey need to be paid decently.
Sorry, that's what it's goingto take.
They need to be paid withrespect.
They need to have the money tomarket.
(13:22):
They need to have the money tohire people that are excellent,
and a lot of the people alreadyin the sector are the best
people.
There's some terrific people init, but they have no ability to
function effectively.
It's like they have a car, orthey have the.
It looks like a car, but theyhave no engine, they have no
(13:42):
wheels and they have no gasolineor oil.
They don't have anything toreally run that car.
So you have a sector that needsto have the best people in the
world doing it.
It has some of the best peoplein the world, but they are
hamstrung.
So it's kind of a simplesolution and it can solve, I
think, issues that have seemedintractable, because every
(14:04):
single challenge that we arefacing has nonprofits trying to
solve.
So that's why I got involvedwith it and, as you know, I have
my own nonprofit, my ownorganization, the Identity
Development Institute, which tome is digging into solving the
(14:28):
other I'm sorry or coming at thesame issue of how do we both
help this species survive, butalso, and probably more
importantly and probablydirectly connected with survival
, how do we help this species,how do we make our fellow men
and women thrive?
How do we make them thrive?
(14:49):
And while I think in charitableof critical importance, in
umbrellas, everything, and wecould really have a major shift,
equally important is thepsychological dynamics going on
with each and every person inall of these sectors.
But let's take the charitablesector as one.
And it became clear to me aftermaking the movie in utero, which
(15:12):
you are in and really helpedreally make clear how important,
how critically importantdevelopment is, from conception
through preverbal development,but particularly from conception
through birth.
You know, it's this thing thatcame to me yesterday and I'm not
(15:34):
sure I can describe it right,but it's the smaller you are
developmentally, the more globalthe impact is on you for the
rest of your life, and you'rethe most fragile when you're
tiny.
Global is global in terms ofhow it's going to effloresce
(15:54):
into the future.
At the same time, when you aretiny, nourishment and love and
connection and attention alsoimpacts the growing organism in
a global way, in a complete way.
So I'm very, very focused onmaking clear to everybody you've
(16:16):
got to go back and look at whathappened to you and experience,
if possible in deep memory,what happened to you really from
conception through preverbaldevelopment.
And the reason I'm so committedto the Institute is because we
have come up with, as you said,a novel psychological method,
but a method that, whenaddressed properly, is safe to
(16:42):
go back to a time when many ofus did not feel safe, and we're
not safe.
We were not safe back thenbecause people don't still know
what human beings really are andparticularly don't respect or
understand what you have.
What you talk about in the filmis incredible, miraculous being
that we are, as we'redeveloping, that can be so
(17:04):
quickly knocked off kilter.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So it's just following up on what you were
saying.
It's hard to be charitable ifyou feel shortchanged, right?
So I mean, if you're comingfrom a position of not enough,
then how could you possibly giveaway anything, because you are
(17:31):
already in a negative position?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I think it's very true.
I think it's once someone saidto me how can I go into a poor
neighborhood, work there with anice car?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I said well, you know who the people in these
neighborhoods look up to the NBAstars, the people who come in
with Cadillacs, the peoplewho've gone.
I'm celebrating my life.
I have a lot, I mean, I thinkit's not even material things,
but I think it is important tobe paid decently.
(18:09):
I mean it's not paid decently,but it's important for these
incredibly imaginative, creativepeople who are committed to
helping other people be giventhe environment to achieve what
they are dreaming to achieve.
And when they do it this iswhat the film is about they get
destroyed because you are notsupposed to do that.
(18:32):
Who is doing the destroying?
Well, the media does it a lot.
The media has attacked a lot ofthese.
Now, all the media is a sort oflens that has been created by
the populace.
I mean the media is not goingto talk about anything that
(18:53):
doesn't bring in money.
I mean the media is afor-profit entity.
So I think sometimes they tryto do right.
They try to do the right thatthe mainstream generally feels
is right.
And what the mainstream feelsis right is that charity should
be humble.
I should feel good when I givemy money.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
And that should be enough, and that should be
enough right.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I want to feel good and I get that.
And I don't feel good.
Giving to the CEO's salaryRight, you go to the homeless
person, you're going.
Well then, why are you givingit to a charity?
Just go over and give the moneyto the homeless person, right.
But the problem is the homelessperson has psychological issues
.
For instance, I mean, 40% ofthe homeless in Skid Row and Los
(19:43):
Angeles are war veterans whoare not getting the protection
and support they need, havingdone what they've been through.
So you go.
You can't.
If you want to give your moneyto just anybody, just give it to
the homeless and feel goodabout it.
Do you feel good about itReally when you're handed to
someone who's standing on thestreet with nothing?
(20:03):
Is that the way to solve theproblem?
Does that really make you feelgood?
No, what makes you feel good isunderstanding what an
organization is doing, evenmaybe participating in it.
And I think one of the thingsthe film is also about is the
joy of being with other peopleand giving to other people, the
(20:23):
psychological uplift that takesplace.
When you say I think two thingshappen the psychological uplift
of being there for somebodyelse, and when you're there with
them, you begin to realizethey're no different than I am.
Number one that makes yougrateful that you are where you
are, yes, and so it makes aconnection with someone who is
(20:49):
fascinating.
I mean, some of the mostinteresting people, who have
lived the most dramatic livesthat would make movies, are the
people who are homeless, forinstance.
You know, you begin to realizethat everyone is interesting and
human and you begin to have ahope.
I think that's what begins tohappen, and I certainly have
emerged making this movie with aprofound sense of hope.
(21:11):
Not that it's going to be easyNow.
There are going to be morefires, there's going to be more
wars, there are all those kindsof things.
But I'm going to put my weightbehind trying to bring about
real change and I think this isthe two ways, core ways of doing
it.
One is really get this film outthere, have people see it, have
their minds changed, have theirhearts changed, and also then
(21:35):
to anyone who wants to come tothe Institute and explore their
early formation, both the goodand the bad of it, because we
can get back there now.
Right, that's to me fun.
I mean it's a fun life.
I have moments of despair,certainly, like all of us.
But I come out of them now andgo right back up to wow, this is
(21:57):
an amazing universe, you know,sort of like the brighter the
sunlight, the darker the shadows.
Yes, so the shadows are dark,but there's so much sunlight.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Why is it called uncharitable instead of
charitable?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Well, we're playing with something that we're still
working on it.
It's based on a book calledUncharitable.
Dan's book was calledUncharitable and I think for a
while I wasn't sure that wasright because I went.
This is a movie whose messageis ultimately profoundly hopeful
and even joyful, right what cancome.
(22:37):
But the fact is that the sectoris still suffering from so much
uncharitable action around itthat it's much better.
And then the other thing isit's interesting is thinking
about calling a movie charity.
Just what does that feel like?
What it feels like is kind ofgoody, two shoes ring, not a
(23:04):
really interesting story, andone of the things it's like
charity is kind of boring thatpeople are doing it.
They're kind of like oh, youfeel better than me.
Oh, you know, there's a levelof yuck around it.
Uncharitable has charity in it,yes, but it has that sort of
Hollywood thing, I guess, whereyou're going into something
(23:26):
that's going to be kind of aroller coaster and adventure.
The thing is maybe puttingparentheses around the on, but
we haven't quite decided yet.
You end in parentheses, sort oflike a dynamic.
So we're playing with some ofthose things.
A little time left, but I thinkit's a.
It's a good question, butthat's the reason, because still
, the world is primarilyuncharitable.
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
(23:46):
Get rid of the UN and make itcharitable.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, no, I think I think you're right.
I mean, I have dealt withtitles for books for a long time
and you definitely want to havea title that is not totally
straightforward, Like you knowthey should be.
Oh, what do they mean by that?
Yeah, yeah, and if the personcan kind of question it, then
(24:13):
you already have them hooked.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, so how do you?
How do you make a movie aboutan idea?
How do you go about making amovie that people will want to
watch for 90 minutes or whateverAbout an idea like charity and
charitable organizations and notfor profit?
(24:38):
How do you go about that?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Well, to me, I mean, I've made primarily narrative
films in my life Mm hmm, and ina way, in utero, the film that
you were in was about an idea,mm hmm, to a great extent.
But the idea has to be aboutpeople.
I mean, what's the step?
What's an idea separated frompeople?
So the answer really is tellthe story of people.
(25:02):
Oh, tell the story of heroes,yes, who are destroyed.
Yes, the hero's journey, thehero's journey, it's really the
hero's journey, and the hero'sjourney really is.
Ultimately, out of the ashescomes the idea.
So, in a way, there's a senseof charity, there's a sense of
all this.
There's people are idealistic,they go into this, they go
(25:24):
through the hero's journey ofinto the fire, and what comes
out is a new idea of charitywhich is much tougher.
My grandmother, my grandmother,my granddaughter would would
sort of be upset with me too,but something that's that's more
male, maybe, or rather, I think, rather than that, because most
of the strongest people I knoware women anyway.
(25:45):
So it's time to give up.
But what I want sexy to be Well, I want what I want charity to
be is that other word sexy?
I want it to become a sexy Cool.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
See, you want it to be cool, right Cool?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, and I think the people who you know, as I was
making, as I was working withall these people in the film and
there's some really importantpeople in the film, I mean
Edward Norton was has been a bigdeal in the charitable sector.
Darren Walker, who's presidentof the Ford Foundation.
Scott Harrison, who is awonderfully charismatic Dory
McWhorter in Chicago, who isspectacular you cannot get Dory
(26:27):
in Chicago to ever be negative.
She said, well, you know, herchildhood was tough.
And she said, well, you know,some people might have thought
whatever they thought about mychildhood, but that it was not
all, not all positive.
She can't, you can't get her tobe negative, she's just
positive and she's tough asnails.
So what I what I love about thefilm as it sort of unfolded was
(26:52):
the emergence of seven or eightpeople who are heroic and flawed
here and there in ways, butgenerally really heroic and and
you see them go through thisjourney and that becomes really,
I think, an interestingexperience and also, I think,
the idea.
(27:12):
As best I can, I think we'vesucceeded moving the audience at
a certain time towards despair.
I mean the whole, the world'sgonna end, it's all terrible,
everything's terrible, and thenslowly going down into the
shadows.
Really, you know that's yougotta be a movie maker, you
gotta entertain.
You know, right, go down intothe shadows, which are real, and
then slowly come back up againIn your.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
In your summary, in your summary of the movie, which
is on your website, you saythat this feature documentary
exposes the dark side ofphilanthropy.
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It's the part that, well, it's interesting because
people say, oh, you're making amovie about documentary.
Oh, they're all so corrupt,they're all using the money for
whatever.
You know, I so many times I'veheard that I'm going.
You really believe that, don'tyou?
I mean, and the news does thatyou know, oh, my, this guy's no,
darren Walker, who's the headof the Ford Foundation, who
followed all these these things,says 99.9% of charities do what
(28:15):
they set out to do, 99.9%.
And there's this 1% which welove to look at and I wonder
sometimes if it's and I thinkI've sort of explored this
enough to go.
Well, people mostly aren'tprepared to sacrifice their
lives and a livelihood and, youknow, put their children in a
(28:38):
much less good school or theylive in a less good environment.
They don't want to do it, to dogood.
It's too much to ask.
So anyone who's actually doingit, it's got to be kind of weird
.
So I think that people don'tsort of like the people in this
sector.
In a way.
It's like there's a kind ofedginess like I'm not doing it,
(29:01):
and it makes them sort of almostfeel guilty.
I think, you know, I don't have, oh, I would do it, but I don't
have enough time and there'sthis sort of edginess to it and
I think that, as a consequence,they're willing to embrace that
the dark side of charity iscorruption and the charity which
is not the case.
The dark side of charity iseverything around charity that
(29:21):
holds it down.
It's everyone, everyone, thenews, the there are these
watchdog organizations.
It's like there are morewatchdog organizations on
charities than there areboosters of charities.
You know they're there and theycan't really do it.
I mean, the problem is this isa whole nother conversation, in
(29:42):
a way, but the watchdogorganizations that people go to,
you know, like charitynavigator and these kinds of
things, have very, very limitedstaff.
So they can't really dig in andsee whether an organization, a
nonprofit, not-for-profit,mission-driven charitable
organization, is really doingits job effectively, as opposed
(30:04):
to the for-profit sector wherethere is millions and millions
of dollars spent on analyzing acompany's you know financials,
where it's headed, so on and soforth, before anyone invests in
them.
I mean, Wall Street is allabout that.
So it can't really be done inthe charitable organization.
So it just sort of you deal withthis phrase overhead.
(30:25):
If the overhead is X, you know,then it's okay, which means
nothing.
You know what, if the overheadis nothing and you have a soup
kitchen and it's serving rottenfood because you haven't had a
decent management in place,right right as high overhead,
but it's, they've raised a hugeamount of money, they're feeding
(30:47):
great food, they supply all theneeds of someone who's homeless
, but in terms of the charitynavigator, the only way they can
really look at it because theydon't have a big enough staff is
what's the overhead?
So it's, and they can function,because people have a sort of a
I don't trust.
Where do I go?
How do I do this?
What do I do?
I don't trust a lot of thesepeople so Well.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Trust has become a huge problem.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's funny that the onesector where you can trust the
most it's the charitable sector.
So, charity, you like Check itout, not because you're
suspicious, but because youwanna know if this is the
charity you wanna be involvedwith.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Meet people, hang out a little bit.
You do that and you feel good.
I mean, I've been in the sector, working in the sector now for
seven years on and off and Ihave my own, but more in making
the movie.
I've been around a lot of thesepeople.
You feel really good.
You do feel hopeful.
You can see they're burnt outand if you're not getting paid
well enough and you're not beingrespected you burn out after a
(31:48):
while.
But especially when you'redealing with major, what appear
to be intractable problems Isthat what you're doing, Sorry.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
So in order to make a movie, you need funding.
Yes, so did any of thesenon-for-profit organizations
contribute to the making of thismovie?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Well, you know, a foundation foundations could not
, because of their rules, putdonate any money into this film
because the film is 100%overhead.
There's nothing about this filmis going to anyone or it's just
changing everyone's mind.
So we had very, very difficulttime raising money.
(32:30):
I knew I was never gonna getinvestment money because it
started this documentary.
So it was like pulling teeth,yeah, and it was my really first
experience at trying to getdonations and it was a humbling
experience.
It was a humiliating experiencea lot.
It was a tough experience.
We did do it.
I had some great people helpingme.
In the end it was a movie.
(32:50):
So and you know I have areputation so we were slowly
able to put together.
But now we struggle.
So anyone who wants to putmoney into this movie for
marketing we've finished themovie you can just you can reach
out to Thomas and he can getyou to me.
I'm easily reachable if you gotcash.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
That's the movies, of course.
Stocks and bonds, or anything,anything at all, anything,
whatever, sure you wanna sellyour third house or fourth house
, go ahead and do it.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
You wanna feel good?
You wanna feel good, come toall those things.
Come on down, come on down.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Did you make any mistakes along the way, and how
did you recover from them?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I think the process of pretty much anything, thomas,
at this point, is all you do ismake mistakes, tons of mistakes
.
Then, by luck or just by themath of having made every single
possible mistake you could make, you find the right choice.
(33:54):
Then you go down that road andnow you have an intersection
with a whole bunch ofpossibilities and you make
mistakes going down all of them.
But if you're hardworking, ifyou're humble, and even if
you've been humiliated and youget yourself back up again, you
keep going you'll find the oneroad that was the right road to
go down.
(34:14):
I think in a way that's thesecret is knowing when you're
wrong, yes, then knowing whenyou're right, or it's even less
happy than that.
It's knowing when you're wrongand knowing when it's right,
because it might not even be youthat came up with what's right.
(34:37):
But the ability to know what'sright and be able to disconnect
from your own need to beterrific to know that you're
wrong.
I was wrong, a lot wrong all theway along life.
It's slowly we began to findour way.
(34:58):
The way is the heart.
A movie really works when it'sfrom the heart.
You have to be almost a childin a way to do that properly.
I think that comes back to whatI was saying earlier about the
most critical time is fromconception through preverbal
development.
That's where you really evolve.
(35:19):
The more you can get back tothat place in yourself that has
been shut down because of thepain that almost all of us felt
because no one knew how to raisekids Right.
Or you can get back to thatplace the more energy and power
and sophistication you have,ironically, and curiosity and a
willingness to be I'm wrong.
(35:39):
Okay, throw it out, start allover.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Well, you have to have guts to do that, yeah
that's true.
That's guts and perseverance.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
So do you have another project in mind for the
future?
What's your next project?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Well, you know, I was saying, you know how.
I think I use myself as anexample of what this work that
the Institute does.
I'm an example of what it wouldhave accomplished.
I don't really even hold myselfresponsible for what's going on
now with me, because I thinkthe deeper we go into all of
(36:20):
this, we don't even know wherewe begin and where the universe
is.
And what is this?
How did I evolve from where Icame from?
And I think also, as you godeeper and deeper into your own
childhood and back to thisperiod of time where I've gone
back, you realize you are somuch driven by epigenetics,
(36:41):
genetics not even DNA to somedegree, but epigenetics and
particular, which goes backgenerations with other people.
So what makes you makedecisions?
Well, are you really makingthese decisions fully yourself?
I think what was the question?
Again, I was just slipped outof my finger tip.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
The question was whether there were any problems
that well, any mistakes that youhave made, and how did you
recover from them.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Well, I think then you were asking do you have any
other projects?
Another project, right?
So what I would say is A, theInstitute number one, and we're
about to start scaling and goingmuch bigger because we really
have realized it really worksand we're kind of it's a
nonprofit but we're going toprobably spin off something to
be a for-profit.
Stay tuned.
I'm starting to do morepodcasts, like your podcast, and
(37:32):
I'm finding that I'm very mucha part of the trauma community
and very much linking up withall of that.
That's number one.
Number two I'm working on a TVshow, a TV series about it, that
involves a family in crisis andaliens.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
And aliens.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Aliens?
Okay, we are citizens of theuniverse.
We're not citizens of Canada orthe United States.
We're citizens of the universe.
And who says I mean, I'm surethere's something else going.
It's a massive universe, ohsure, yeah, I also work on a
musical now.
I'm finishing a memoir.
I'm probably coming out withanother book of poetry.
(38:10):
I have an eight-year-old, Ihave grandkids.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I have Luke, eight years old, luke.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
He's eight years old now, yeah, and I got to go take
him to basketball lessons andbasketball games, yeah, yeah.
So all of those things are.
I seem to be able to jugglethem all, I think because you
know internal family systems isan interesting has shed light a
(38:39):
lot on what we've uncovered, tothat trauma spits, the organism,
the being, the psyche, and ifyou can get access to all the
splits that are who you are,going back to the very beginning
, you can juggle a lot of things.
So I'm juggling a lot of thingsand I'm having a good time
doing it like a little kid,almost like a big big toy store
(39:02):
Buy whatever I want to, or it'sall free.
They just give me FAO Schwartzon Fifth Avenue and say you can
have everything you want, like,ok, I'll take that, that, that,
that, that, that.
So I'm doing all of thesethings, yeah, and it's fun.
Meanwhile, we're going out withthis movie.
You know It'll be in theaters.
It's between 50 and 125 citiesand if you are involved in a
(39:22):
charitable organization, reachout to us on
UncharitableMoviecom, but youknow hashtag UncharitableMovie,
check us out and join what Ithink is going to be a really,
really major mission thatinvolves A after this, probably
a TV series with movie stars andcelebrities talking about their
(39:44):
large charities and you know,and celebrities being in the
sports world or wherever, music,whatever and then probably
going back to what Dan did along time ago, which is a
gathering of people beingtogether.
I'm sort of describing it as aburning man that is on the move,
(40:05):
that has wonderful joyfulelement to it, which is raising
hundreds of millions of dollars,not just for one charity but
for many, but, almost moreimportantly, raising the
consciousness and lifting thehearts of the people that would
take part in it.
That's what Dan really learnedwhen he did the AIDS rides,
which really started all thisoff, which is it's the biggest
(40:27):
thing is not not so much raisingmoney, although it's critical,
because money is energy.
Finally, the biggest thing ispeople, connecting with people.
That also brings on mentalhealth and it's joy and it's fun
.
So so all of these things aresort of where I think we're
headed and that's why I'mhopeful.
Not that it's easy, it ain'teasy but it's not impossible
(40:50):
either, and that's the good news.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
So you have, you have an eight year old son, luke,
right, yeah, what?
What advice would you give himabout life at this moment, as
you have, as you have reachedthis stage, what are you about?
60, 73?
(41:14):
Really Well, you look like 60at the most, thank you, thank
you, congratulations.
You have done well, so okay.
So here you are at 72 andalmost 74, almost 74, almost 74.
You have lived 74 very excitingyears, very creative.
What would you say to him?
(41:35):
What kind of advice would yougive him about life?
I mean in, in, in, in the casethat perhaps you found out God
forbid that you have only youknow like a week to live.
So before you die, you want togive him the best advice you can
.
What would it be?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Well, you know you, you can't help at 74.
To have that thought in yourmind anyway, right?
So with all, with Luke and mygranddaughters and my kids, it's
a good question.
I think I'm working on a memoirand I'm really realizing it's a
(42:17):
lot for my loved ones.
Rough memoir in many ways.
There's a lot of complicatedthings in it, but I'm not sure
this is exactly right.
But there's a line that'scoming to mind right now and I
think it applies to Luke as itapplies to my other kids.
It doesn't apply to everybody,I don't think.
Yes, both Maggie and Jake andLuke found me privileged.
(42:40):
I think I have believed.
First of all, you know, it'snot what you say exactly is what
you do.
So we'll come back to what Imight say.
But I think it's more what youdo.
And I'm thinking about mygrandmother, one grandmother
that most of my grandparentswere loony tunes but she wasn't.
(43:01):
And she wrote some articlesfrom McCall's magazine which I
really want to find, about theimportance of chaos and raising
children.
It's really a critical piecewhich at the time was not
something I think you wouldembrace.
That too, you know.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
It's who you want to be.
Explore, be curious, Bewhatever you want to be.
I don't know what you should be.
You have to find that outyourself.
I'll be there for you as muchas I can.
But the thing that was comingto mind with him a little bit.
I wouldn't say this to him now,quite yet, but somebody said
recently there are only two waysto change the world.
(43:38):
And yeah, we got to work onchanging the world.
We can't drive ourselves crazyabout it.
You know, I'm not interested indoing that.
I'm going to play my part and Ihave a lot of energy, so I'm
going to do what I can, but onlyif it's fun, really.
But there are only two ways ofchanging the world Violence and
storytelling.
Who said this?
(44:01):
I don't know.
Somebody told me this thing andI just went.
That's really the truth, youknow, and when you see how
people are swayed on the right,the left, the center, whatever
it is it's the stories that aretold.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Well, this would be.
I just want to say this wouldbe incredibly popular right here
in Stratford.
Yes, of course, Of course.
Storytelling is.
Everything Like this is whathappens every day here in the
summer.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And it is.
It's really.
It's really what it is.
You know, stories have beentold since campfires, caves.
Stories have been told all theway along because they're about
human beings, human beingsbehave and how maybe they can
behave differently, although Ithink it takes generations to
really bring about change.
(44:50):
So he loves telling stories,just like Maggie and Jake, and
do, yeah, but you're in thattradition, he's in that
tradition.
So I'd say, yeah, he likes totype away on his.
Now he's already typing already, and so I'd say, tell the
stories that matter to you.
You know, learn the craft ifyou want.
Yes, yes, and, and I think, andhave a good time at it and
(45:16):
don't be a misery and despairand all those kinds of things.
You can't bury them, you got tobring them to the surface.
But if you bring them to thesurface, I believe underneath it
, you really find that at thecore of what we are, we're kind
of being held togethermolecularly, quantumly, I think,
by joy and love and some level,some version of that level of
energy.
As you look around at theuniverse and you go holy shit,
(45:39):
look at this place, prettyamazing.
Yes, yeah, telescope or myfather.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yes, so you mentioned at the beginning, before we
recorded, that there will bepremieres of your film also in
Canada.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Yes, yes.
So one thing I was going tomention.
You have one other project I'mworking on now is called the
universe sings.
I'm just starting.
It's a documentary abouteverything, has vibration to it,
everything resonates,everything is sending out data
and we can pick that data.
Yes, we can do that too.
So I'm starting, just starting.
I swear I was never going tomake another documentary, but
(46:19):
here I am back again becauseit's just too wonderful a form.
So the movie so, so, so A youcan get a new to online.
That's one movie.
You can see all my other movies.
Losing Isaiah of Twin Peaks,which I did tons and tons of
movies over the years, reallyhad a really great time.
You can go to Netflix and seeall my movies.
Just look up Jillian Hall.
(46:39):
Oh, wait, a minute.
Look up Jillian Hall.
Hmm, you're going to get Maggieand Jake.
They've made more movies thanme, which I'm very proud of.
So look up Jillian Hall and youcan just watch movies for a
month.
You want to see Uncharted at atheater?
It starts in New York onSeptember 21st.
There'll be, hopefully, a goodamount of information about it
(46:59):
before then in the news as westart to roll it out, and then
it'll be.
It'll roll out across thecountry.
So check out a theater new yearnear you, because I think
that's the other piece of this.
And going back to theaters,going back to seeing things with
other people it's like goinginto nature.
People say, oh, you should gointo nature.
That's a really good thing.
(47:19):
Go into a theater, you'resurrounded by nature.
You're surrounded by naturethat laughs, that cries with you
, it eats popcorn with you thatyou can get mad at, that you can
love, you can kiss in thetheater.
You can do, you can do anythingyou want in a theater.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
So you better stop before we get into a too deep
discussion In terms of thepremiere.
Please let me know when it'spremiering in Canada.
I would love to attend and Iwould like to tell my friends
about it, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
We're working on it.
We're working on getting it allstarted out.
I think a major company iscoming in to really release it
quite extensively across Canada.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Okay, okay, okay.
And like here in this theatertown of Stratford we always say
when we wish someone good luck,we say break a leg.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
We do that here, we do that in LA too, can you?
So let me say break a leg break, Stephen.
Thank you, it's so great totalk to you and I wish you
tremendous success I mean, Iknow it's going to be a great,
great success and also give myregards to Kathleen yes and
(48:35):
Luke, who I have never met, butI seem to almost know him from
talking to you.
I think there's some truth in that he's.
The apple doesn't fall far fromthe tree, Right right they roll
away in their own directions.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
So let's stay in touch, Stephen, and break a leg
and thank you, thank you, takecare, bye, bye.
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