July 6, 2023 • 45 mins
What if you could alter your mood, focus your mind, and even manage conditions like PTSD and depression just by listening to a certain type of sound? That's the revolutionary promise behind binaural beats, the focus of our conversation with Wayne Altman, the founder of Melody Clouds, on today's episode of Pushing Boundaries. Wayne shares his intriguing journey into the world of binaural beats, which began as a personal quest to manage his tinnitus, and evolved into an exploration of the incredible potential of these unique sound frequencies.
But Wayne's passion didn't stop there. He took the power of binaural beats and channeled it into his innovative project, Melody Clouds. This remarkable app promises to create a calming environment that helps babies self-soothe and regulate their sleep. Driven by his personal experience and his parents' influence, Wayne's passion for this project shines through as he explains how Melody Clouds stands out from his previous ventures.
Our conversation with Wayne also delves into a more futuristic topic, namely the blurring line between human and AI interactions. We discuss the anxiety induced by repetitive words and motions during conversations and the rapidly advancing world of AI. But amidst this digital evolution, Wayne insists on the importance of human interaction, emphasizing the value of personal contact and encouraging listeners to engage with him directly. Join our thought-provoking conversation on Pushing Boundaries and discover the world of binaural beats, the future of AI, and the enduring value of human connection.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Thomas R Verny MD (00:02):
Good morning.
This is Pushing Boundaries, apodcast about pioneering
research, breakthroughdiscoveries and unconventional
ideas.
I'm your host, Dr.
Thomas R Verny.
My guest today is Wayne Altman,the founder of Melody Clouds.
(00:24):
Wayne suffers from tinnitus andwas looking for relief when he
noticed that the only way hecould stop experiencing extreme
ringing in both ears was when helistened to binaural beats Now,
I'm not familiar with that termand will ask Wayne to explain
that or specific tones of music.
(00:47):
That's when he realized hecould create something for
people not limited to this onecondition, but to share the
healing and beneficial effectsof this technology with everyone
who wants it.
Wayne, may I call you WayneAltman?
I'll give that to absolutely100%.
Okay, please call me Thomas.
Okay,.
(01:09):
So to start with, Wayne,welcome.
Thank you very much.
Am I pronouncing binauralbeats
Wayne Altman (01:20):
Yeah, binaural beats, you got it 100%.
Thomas R Verny MD (01:22):
Yeah, just like it sounds Okay, so tell me,
what that is.
Wayne Altman (01:26):
Okay, a very simple explanation.
Binaural beat is two frequency,one frequency in one ear, one
frequency in another ear Closelyrelated.
your brain chooses to split thedifference.
rather than fight between thefrequencies, it just chooses to
split the difference and giveyou a frequency.
Our brain is an electricalappliance and our thoughts are
(01:52):
transmitted, our emotions aretransmitted.
It's all electrical.
If you can manipulate thefrequency of that electrical
charge, you can manipulate thefrequencies of people, their
emotions You can.
there's quite a number ofeffects that you can have over
someone in treating whatever itis that they're going through,
(02:17):
whether it's mood.
our tagline is take charge ofyour mood.
If you're sad and you don'twant to be, then you can use
binaural beats and uplift yourmood.
If they use it a lot.
with the PTSD patients, a lotof clinically depressed people
are starting to catch on tobinaural beats and very similar
(02:40):
to the way we interact withmusic.
Thomas R Verny MD (02:43):
So there are.
I know nothing about music, imean definitely not, so I would
imagine there are thousands offrequencies.
Wayne Altman (02:53):
There are The ones that we're paying attention to
most.
We've got probably, i don'tknow, two or three dozen that
really have effect on focus.
Turns out that you've heard theterm he's in the zone, she's in
the zone, normally talkingabout scoring events, right,
yeah, turns out that the zone isan actual place.
(03:15):
You can enter the zone, you canexit the zone And it's a great
deal of focus.
In other words, it's a veryhigh, concentrated focus.
You can recreate that prettymuch at will.
Thomas R Verny MD (03:31):
So how did you manage to end up with the
frequencies that produce theseresults that you are describing?
Wayne Altman (03:41):
So this research has been going on since the
mid-70s.
In what's the word I'm lookingfor?
Really concentrated efforts.
They're really concentratingtheir efforts since the mid-70s.
They had made several moviesabout this Scanners one.
They're really trying to getinto the thought control, mind
(04:02):
control.
That was another failure.
The military was doing a lot ofexperiments on this kind of
stuff.
So I think that's a great thing, but the military was doing a
lot of experiments on this kindof stuff.
What they did succeed, however,was in the therapeutic aspects,
(04:22):
and also they use it a lot withtrying to scare the enemy or
annoy the enemy.
You can really hit frequenciesthat are very detrimental to
people.
Yes, yes, yes.
Thomas R Verny MD (04:41):
So how did you arrive at the frequencies
that you use?
Wayne Altman (04:46):
So here that's an interesting story.
So you mentioned it.
I have tinnitus And you're thefirst person to interview me
that has actually said the wordcorrectly.
I had one person say tinnitus.
I mean tendinitis, tinnitus.
Thomas R Verny MD (05:00):
Five minutes.
Wayne Altman (05:01):
Tinnitus.
I'm like look, my joints arefine.
Tinnitus is a ringing orwhooshing, or in the ear, it's
ear, the nerve of your ear isdamaged And what you're hearing
in that is the damage thatyou've done to that nerve.
And this has been going onsince I left the military.
(05:22):
I spent eight and a half yearsin the army.
I heard a lot of explosions, alot of gunfire, and so as a
teenager I listened to a lot ofloud music.
So the lesson is guard yourhearing jealously, right.
So I came out of thatexperience for the last 30 years
with this whooshing and ringingin my ear And a friend of mine
(05:47):
very good friend of mine calledme over to the house one day and
said listen, i've got somethingI want you to try.
And so I said you know, fine, weput some headphones on.
He played a track of music.
It was pretty like woo-woo,very crunchy type.
You know, music didn't doanything for him And I'm not
that, that's not who I am anywayI didn't like the music and it
(06:10):
didn't do anything for him.
So I we did it again.
He tried another track of music, same result, and so I was
getting a little bit annoyed.
I'm like what are you trying todo here?
Thomas R Verny MD (06:22):
And he said just give me a second.
Wayne Altman (06:24):
The third track he played for me, I heard
something I haven't heard in 30years and it still makes me
emotional Silence.
It took that whooshing I hear.
Right now, As you and I aretalking, I hear a very loud
ringing in my ear and awhooshing sound And that was
(06:46):
gone And I I was like stunned.
Four days later, I had thedomain Melody Clouds.
I had a collection of thesebinaural beats and I had a list
of other frequencies that may beof help to people And I
scrambled around, I hiredcomposers, I put these to music
(07:10):
and Melody Clouds was born fromthat encounter.
Thomas R Verny MD (07:15):
So, but obviously you just said that you
hear the whooshing sound rightnow, So it does not give you
permanent relief.
Wayne Altman (07:24):
Correct.
It's not a cure.
There is no cure so far fortinnitus, But what you can do is
relieve that from someone overthat period of time.
Every night I listen to 432Hertz and.
I fall asleep like a babyBecause I number.
I do two things When I go tosleep, and I'm probably the only
(07:45):
person that does this.
But when I go to sleep, my mindstarts racing with all of the
things I need to do the next dayor things that happen in that
day.
It's very distracting.
I'm exhausted, i'm ready to goto sleep, yet my mind is like
not yet.
And so when I listen to 432Hertz, i have a track of music
(08:11):
on Melody Clouds right now, andthe icon is a sleeping baby,
this very cute sleeping baby,thomas.
I have listened to 15 secondsof that music hundreds of times.
The 16th second, i'm asleep.
That's how quickly this works.
(08:34):
Now you can argue, and peoplehave asked me look, i listen to
this frequency, it didn't doanything.
I listened to this frequency,it didn't do anything.
You want to know something, tobe honest, that's what convinced
me this was real and notsomething that I just presuppose
and imagine, because when yougo to the doctor and he
(08:55):
prescribes medication, the nextvisit is how did that medication
work?
It's going to work differentlyfor you than it does for me, and
so I realized that and I waslike you know what?
It's not necessarily a badthing that it doesn't work the
same way in everybody.
No, nothing does.
We're all unique individuals.
Thomas R Verny MD (09:17):
Right, right, right.
So in your Melody Clouds, whatdo you call it?
Is it like a website or abusiness?
Wayne Altman (09:33):
What is it?
Melodycloudscom is the website.
I went and had an iOS app builtfor the iPhone and an Android
app built for it.
It's portable now You can takeit anywhere you want to go.
It's very similar to CalmHeadspace, so relaxation app.
(09:55):
That's really basically what itamounts to.
We have taken over 18,000audiobooks all the classics Tom
Sawyer, huck Finn.
Some people like being read too, other people like reading
themselves.
There's 8,000 hours of binauralbeats and sulfesio frequencies.
Thomas R Verny MD (10:19):
There is What is sulfesio.
Wayne Altman (10:22):
Okay, sulfesio, you were talking about the fact
that you didn't know anythingabout music.
I'm very similar.
Before all this, i was in avery similar boat.
I can't carry a tune and Ican't play a note on an
instrument.
However, the one thing that youand I share with all the people
who can is we know when a sournote has been played.
Thomas R Verny MD (10:44):
Yes.
Wayne Altman (10:45):
We know when someone is singing out of tune,
it bothers us just as much as itbothers the acapella opera
singer True True.
Okay, that's sulfesio.
Thomas R Verny MD (10:56):
Yeah.
Wayne Altman (10:56):
That is our natural ability to recognize.
Wait a minute, something'swrong here.
This is the same as if you andI were to step into an opera
where there's a master ofsinging.
It is going to move us in avery similar way as everyone
(11:17):
else.
Right, that is sulfesio.
It was, i don't like to say,invented.
It was observed by an 11thcentury monk named Guido di
Arezzo.
I always mention him because Ilove number one, i love the name
Number two.
That's a really genius way oflooking at things, something
(11:41):
that we all, everyone shares.
If you're listening to someonewho can really sing, and it may
not even be in a form that youreally appreciate normally.
Thomas R Verny MD (11:54):
Would you spell the name of that monk
again please?
Wayne Altman (11:57):
Yes, it's G-U-I-D-O, g-u-i-v-o.
Guido right, yeah, d ApostropheArezzo, a-r-r-z-o Or Z-Z-O.
Thomas R Verny MD (12:15):
Arosso.
Wayne Altman (12:16):
Yeah, arezzo, i hope I've been pronouncing that
correctly.
I'll look it up.
Thomas R Verny MD (12:23):
I'll look it up.
Yeah, so you say you have 8,000hours 8,000 hours of binaural
beats.
Why do you need excuse me, whydo you need 8,000 hours?
I mean, wouldn't 100 hours beenough?
Wayne Altman (12:39):
Certainly not.
That's why we have differentmusic, different tracks for
people.
That's why we perform more thanone opera.
Some people like they're in astyle of a certain style, other
people like it serve to them ina different style.
Some frequencies, like I said,some frequencies, will not work
with some individuals, so youneed to have more than one
(13:02):
frequency, more than one trackin each of those frequencies, in
different styles.
Do you like banjo music?
Yeah, okay, a little bit, nottoo much.
I love banjo music.
You want to make someone happy,play the banjo.
I've never seen anyone frowningaround banjo music, but there
(13:23):
are some people.
We would probably agree.
Some people cannot stand banjomusic.
My grandfather, for example,couldn't stand to hear a violin
play.
Right, i was like wait, what doyou mean?
you don't like hearing a violin?
I mean someone that is playinga, whether it's a fiddle or
whether it's a violin.
Thomas R Verny MD (13:42):
I enjoy that music very much.
Wayne Altman (13:44):
Yeah same here, so I wanted to make an app that
was for everyone.
Everyone was able to findsomething in it that they
enjoyed, and it would relax them.
Thomas R Verny MD (14:00):
So do you have any way of predicting which
type of music is going to fitbest a certain type of
personality?
Wayne Altman (14:11):
No, yet I do know that we're working on a couple
of different things that willkind of give people an idea of
what is going to suit them,what's going to help them, But
so far it really hasn't bornethat much fruit.
It really is something that youneed to experience and find out
what's going to suit you, whattype of music you enjoy.
(14:34):
Number one, Because that helpsa great deal.
I have found out that thathelps a great deal.
If you're enjoying the soundsthat this is couched in, then it
has a better chance of workingand doing the expected outcome.
Sure, that makes sense One thingI will say is that, especially
(14:54):
when you're talking about 8.52Hertz, when you're talking about
6.39 Hertz, those things,there's an expected result from
listening to those binauralbeats And I have discovered
after the last year, year and ahalf, that those fall in line
exactly with what the expectedbenefit was going to be, as it's
(15:18):
being reported back to me.
Thomas R Verny MD (15:20):
So you said that what you have said two
things now.
One is that your tinnitus goesaway, or at least is suspended,
while you're still listening toyour sounds.
And secondly that was in a fewminutes you fall asleep when you
play it.
Wayne Altman (15:39):
You seconds.
It doesn't take more.
I mean I can't even get to aminute.
I cannot even get to a minuteNow.
These are all differentfrequencies.
One Frequency does one thing,one frequency does the other
thing.
So at night I have to make adecision.
Do I get rid of the tinnitus?
Yes, do I want to sleep?
Thomas R Verny MD (16:00):
All right, all right.
So let's say that I want to goto sleep at night.
So how do I go about buying oneof your melody clouds Tunes, i
guess, or whatever it's?
Wayne Altman (16:15):
a subscription.
Okay it's subscription base.
Yeah, i'm For two months, forfor 60 days.
I want people to try this out.
So, 60 days, it's $2.99 centsper month for 60 days.
Two months After that, if youfind that this is something that
you you know this is beneficialfor you, i charge $5.99 cents
(16:39):
thereafter.
So I'm really trying to, youknow, break the bit, i'm sure
sure That's very reasonable.
Thomas R Verny MD (16:47):
So what?
what do people get for the 599?
Wayne Altman (16:51):
Okay.
So 18,000 audiobooks, 8,000hours of binaural beats.
These binaural beats are in thedifferent frequencies, so
different tracks of music andthose frequencies.
Listen to it as much as youwant.
E-sobs fables I'm sure you'refamiliar with these tops fables.
You got a big smile on yourface, just like I do.
(17:11):
I Love those stories, me too.
Me too.
So, okay, well, this would bebetter.
This would help you becauseGary Meyer, a very good friend
of mine, reads E-sobs fables inmelody clouds.
He is a I don't know if you'refamiliar with Gary, but he's a
Hall of Fame.
He's in the Radio Hall of Fameright under Marconi.
(17:34):
Gary reads these stories.
He does a brilliant job.
They're about a minute, minuteand a half each as read and I
Burst into tears the first timeI heard him read my stories on
melody clouds.
It was that emotional for mebecause, number one, i love the
story so much and he does agreat job In in reading them.
(17:58):
It really kind of brings thestory, excuse me to light.
Thomas R Verny MD (18:03):
So what does the app do?
you said that you have launchedan app for iOS and Android.
What does the app do for aperson?
Wayne Altman (18:12):
So that's where all the music is right.
So you go in the view, open theapp, sign it.
Sign up, open the app and yousee 18,000 audiobooks searchable
, searchable by title,searchable by author, all in
chronological chapter order.
Right, the e-sobs fablesthere's icons telling you where,
(18:36):
which, each, where each of thefables are Lullabies.
We'll talk about Lullabies.
So I This is really what morepeople contact me about I'm
getting a suspicious number ofContact by new parents And I
(18:57):
think this is something you'regonna be very interested in,
because I've heard about yourbook.
I'm looking forward to readingit.
The Lullabies are cut in fiveto ten hour sections and the
thought being That the firstskill a child learns after being
born is how to self sue, you're, you're hoping that they learn
(19:21):
very quickly how to getthemselves back to sleep, should
they wake up in the middle ofthe night.
Agree?
Thomas R Verny MD (19:27):
Yeah, agreed, though a lot of them, as many
new parents, will testify.
Don't learn it for quite awhile, right?
Wayne Altman (19:35):
This helps to cut that time down, the theory being
You put the baby down, youstart playing the lullaby.
That lullaby is cut in a longerformat.
So in the middle of the night,when they wake up, they're
hearing the same music played inthe same environment.
They realize very quicklyeverything around them is fine,
(19:57):
safe, warm, dry, and they canlearn to get themselves back to
sleep after fussing you a veryshort period of time.
So creating that environmentaround them that is the same as
when you put them down for sleepat night Has a tendency to
shorten that time.
Right now We're looking ataround 30%.
(20:18):
That's what's being reported tome.
I'm not there to witness this,but I do have Handfuls of email
from people going.
You are a genius, which, iremind, i share my with my wife
all the time.
I'm a genius.
Yeah, just, that was anaccidental.
I Just decided look, we'regonna, we're gonna cut these
(20:40):
into longer lullabies, right,and That was the happy so far
has been the happy result ofthat.
Thomas R Verny MD (20:54):
Well, that's, that's an amazing, amazing work
you have done for a person whohas Actually never had anything
to do with electronics, i wouldimagine, or music none, none, no
, nothing in as far as musicgoes.
Wayne Altman (21:11):
I look I have other businesses.
That is really what my forte is.
Yeah, is taking an idea andcreating and making a business,
and This was something for thefirst time that I really felt
like I had a stake in it, that Ihad a personal Connection to
(21:32):
that business.
The others were monetary Let'searn a living.
Yeah, i had had that beateninto my brain.
You know, from a very young age.
You gotta be, you know, you gotto give right, you got to learn
earn a living.
This is a little bit differentand it's one of the reasons why
I charge what I charge for it.
It pays the bills.
(21:54):
There's I'm.
You know.
I was offended by how muchother apps like this were
charging.
It offended me personally,offended me, and So I did this
on a, on a, i think, a betterapp and a for a better price.
Thomas R Verny MD (22:14):
So you mentioned, you mentioned a
little bit about your upbringing.
Was there, was there anythingin terms of your relationship to
your parents or what yourfather or mother did that kind
of Contributed to your interestin this subject?
Wayne Altman (22:38):
Look, my parents were probably the two most
supportive and you know I maynot have always agreed with them
.
You know what I mean as normalchild relationship.
I mean you know who does Right,right.
But I was very close to myparents.
They both passed on.
They're sitting within an arm'sreach of me right now on my
(22:58):
desk.
They really did open the worldas much as they could to me.
I have siblings the same withthem.
They were very supportive.
We were in scouting.
You know these.
I have always been interestedby a lot of different things.
I have written six books.
Not one of those books did Iwrite before.
(23:22):
I mean after becoming an expert.
I always became an expert inthe subject material while
writing the book.
I figured that this is the wayto learn a subject.
You've written a book, you knowyou learn more after the book
is finished than you did writingthe book.
Thomas R Verny MD (23:42):
This is very true, right.
Wayne Altman (23:45):
If you've done it correctly.
If you've done it correctly,you've done, you've learned more
And now you can call yourselfan expert, maybe at the end,
once you've written the endRight.
Thomas R Verny MD (23:56):
And the interesting thing is that
sometimes other people seethings in your book that you
never imagined were there 100%.
Wayne Altman (24:05):
That is 100% true.
Thomas R Verny MD (24:07):
Which comes then as a surprise.
Oh really, You know?
did I write that, You know, ordid I imply that in my writing?
Hey, that's very good.
I'm glad I did that.
Wayne Altman (24:18):
Yeah, I did a book on credit called When Bad
Credit Happens to Good People.
I realized that when I wasgoing through college, when I
was going in the military, thatthere was no credit education in
the United States for people.
You could get all the creditthat you wanted, but you were
not allowed to educate peopleabout how the system worked
(24:40):
Right, And I found thatpersonally offensive.
So I set out to write When BadCredit Happens to Good People
and that's what I learned.
I learned so much duringwriting that book about the
American credit system that it'scarried over into every single
thing, every project I've donesince then, In terms of melody
(25:00):
clouds, how long ago did youstart this?
Thomas R Verny MD (25:04):
When did you start?
Wayne Altman (25:06):
One year and one month.
Today is the sixth.
Today is the sixth On theseventh last year.
we yes, right, we are in 138countries.
We are translated into 203languages.
We let me think what else.
I was just going over this theother day.
(25:26):
Yeah, we have ramped this up totwo apps, a website, oh yeah.
Thomas R Verny MD (25:35):
So when you say we, who else is involved?
Wayne Altman (25:38):
Well, i, you know me, my wife, i've got a team of
people that help.
I couldn't possibly doeverything myself.
I do like to take the credit,though.
Thomas R Verny MD (25:46):
So that's a good point.
Wayne Altman (25:48):
I do like to take the credit for all of this.
Thomas R Verny MD (25:52):
So did you make any mistakes along the way
during the last you know year?
Wayne Altman (25:58):
Well, I'm really.
It's a good thing I'm not oneto dwell on the mistakes that
I've made, because I would havejumped off a bridge a long time
ago, I mean anyone that tellsyou that they didn't make a
mistake in doing something likethis is they're delusional.
They need mental health.
So, yes, I made a tremendousand continue to make mistakes.
(26:19):
Number one when you, when youtrust people to do a job for you
that you know, you sometimesyou make misjudgments on whether
or not they can a complete thework or B are going to be honest
about the work that they'vecompleted.
Some people are, you know,human being is a fallible thing,
(26:42):
you know.
So, yes, there were somemistakes that were made in
trusting certain people oragreements that people had made,
but overall, I learned a lotfrom it And I'm very grateful to
those people who did that,because I now know more, having
had to do it myself or fix thatfire.
(27:03):
They would set things on fire,Thomas.
They would set things on fireand I would have to figure out
how am I for the life of MelodyClouds, how am I going to put
out this fire and make thisbetter and fire proof next time?
Thomas R Verny MD (27:20):
So do you have any children?
Wayne Altman (27:23):
I do.
I have three beautifuldaughters, geniuses.
They are way smarter than theirparents And that's a.
That's a scary thing, veryscary thing.
How old are they?
So I have one that's 22, onethat she just completed a
psychology degree in universityI have, 18 year old, that we, my
(27:48):
wife and I, are taking her.
Exactly one month from today,she will be in Iowa on a full
scholarship to play volleyballand study biology and chemistry.
So we're very proud of her.
And then I have one that isgoing to be 15, two days.
Two days from now her birthday.
(28:10):
Happy birthday, momo.
Thomas R Verny MD (28:14):
So do they follow?
do any of them want to followin your footsteps?
Wayne Altman (28:20):
I think to a certain degree all three of them
bear my markings of parentingMy middle daughter.
She speaks three languages, sheknows how to sew, she loves to
bake.
She's very, very smart kid, soI like to think I contributed
(28:41):
some intelligence to her.
My wife would argue with that.
She thinks that comes from herand she's well.
She's welcome to her opinion.
My oldest daughter is a supercaring individual, very, very
smart.
She has a deep interest inchildren and learning And I
think that that it comes from me.
(29:02):
Again, my wife is veryargumentative and thinks that
she had something to do withthat And my youngest is a very
personable, hilarious individual.
I mean lights up a room when shewalks into it.
I've said to people that if youdon't like me, I understand,
(29:25):
But if you don't like my wife ormy youngest daughter, I know
where the problem is And it'syou, it's you.
Thomas R Verny MD (29:32):
You are the problem, it's you, it's you.
So just to change theatmosphere here for a second If
you could have dinner with anythree people, alive or dead, who
would it be?
Wayne Altman (29:47):
So the first one, for sure, without any question,
would be my father.
I would love to have dinnerwith my dad and kind of show him
where his efforts led and beable to share with him where his
grandchildren are and whatthey're doing.
So that's number one.
Let's see Charlie Ward.
(30:12):
Charlie Ward, basically, wasanother father figure to me.
He's passed away.
I would love to have dinnerwith him and kind of have.
We used to have these very deepphilosophical conversations and
I missed that, the depth that Icould go with Charlie about
(30:32):
spiritual theology.
I missed that tremendously.
So he would be invited to thatdinner and I think he and my
father would get along very well.
So that's important.
That's important And I thinkthat I would like to have.
I don't think, i know I wouldlike to have a dinner with Jesus
(30:54):
.
I would love to have that, andprobably before the other two.
Even, i would really like toget to the bottom of some things
.
I am incredibly curious.
Thomas R Verny MD (31:12):
You're the second person in the last two
weeks who has told me that.
That's very interesting Interms of what you just mentioned
, jesus, and you mentioned thesecond person, ward, that you
used to have, that you used tohave really deep conversations
(31:35):
with.
So forgive me for being apsychiatrist, but are you doing
so much to help other peoplewith their emotions and their
(31:56):
problems?
What do you do for yourselfthat keeps you sane?
Wayne Altman (32:06):
Well, i will say this that my focus being on my
children and keeping it off ofme and my problems.
We spent last week in Chicagoat the National Volleyball
Tournament.
That, to me, was one of thegreatest times I ever got to
spend with my children.
One of them was participatingand getting to watch her excel
(32:29):
at something that she's very,very good at Really soothed my
soul.
It really helped me.
It was a very expensive trip.
It was a very expensive trip,but that is something that I
really appreciated.
Thomas R Verny MD (32:48):
And I'll tell you something else.
Wayne Altman (32:49):
And I hope everyone has this ability or has
this opportunity.
But I have two friends.
I have more than one, more thantwo friends, but two friends in
specific Rick Reinholz andSteve Jackson.
And I've known them since 12,13 years old for Steve and maybe
(33:10):
15, 16-year-old for Rick, so 40some years.
We've known one another.
We played golf a couple, threetimes a year.
They live in different statesAnd just talking to them on the
phone or just being in theirpresence and being able to have
that camaraderie, thatfellowship, really does a lot
(33:34):
for me.
They're very good for me when Iwant to bounce off ideas And
there's also a competitiveelement.
We always want to.
You know there's a little bit.
It's healthy, but it's there,it is definitely there.
So we play, whether we playgolf, whether we in business,
how we're doing or how our kidsare doing, there's always this
(33:56):
underlying, you know,competitive hate.
I'm glad to see you're doingwell, right.
Thomas R Verny MD (34:04):
Yeah, i understand.
I understand.
So, in terms of your life andour life and the life we live,
what does it mean to you to behuman?
What does being human mean toyou?
Wayne Altman (34:24):
Well, i honestly think that we're all here to
take care of one another.
We have the capacity of, youknow, really great amount of
care and love.
We also have the capacity ofthe opposite of that.
We show it all the time.
But really, those moments, youknow, it cannot be denied that,
(34:45):
those moments that we allappreciate, when we see two
human beings interact and lovein a filial, you know,
fellowship, you know that'sreally what melts hearts and
what really, you know, makespeople feel good.
The fact that we're stilldisgusted when we see people
(35:06):
mistreat one another, that to me, is a miracle.
Thomas R Verny MD (35:14):
I understand.
So you said that you had somequestions of me.
Go ahead, ask anything you like.
Wayne Altman (35:22):
Well, i was.
I didn't know it was going tobe part of this, but you know,
look, there are there, are?
you said something in aninterview and now that you put
me on the spot, i'm going toforget what I was talking about
Oh well, that's okay, We can doit at the time.
I was watching you in aninterview, i was, oh, this is
what I was talking about.
Okay, so you had a gentlemanthat was nodding his head while
(35:45):
you were speaking deeply, youknow, in agreement, but it was a
every time you would speak.
He was in the back and he wasnodding his head.
This like this.
And I had a very similarsituation where someone that was
interviewing me was saying hesaid a key, he'll give it away.
(36:06):
He said a word every inagreement, but he's he'd say
this word over and over and overis incredibly distracting in
the interview.
What was the word?
Thomas R Verny MD (36:17):
What was the word that he said?
Wayne Altman (36:19):
Well, it'll give it away who it was.
I don't want to tell you whatthe word was.
Thomas R Verny MD (36:22):
I'll tell you after.
Wayne Altman (36:23):
Okay, but it was, it was in agreement, he was
being in agreement with me And Ifound it extraordinarily hard
to concentrate on theconversation because he was
doing this and I was going toask you did you find it as
discombobulating that, that thatrepetitive motion that you know
(36:44):
every time?
you would say something in thisinterview and you?
you never mentioned it.
at least I didn't see youmention it or call him out or
ask it what are you doing?
Because I was screaming at my.
I was screaming at my monitor.
what are you doing?
Why are you doing that?
It was bothering me for you.
It was bothering me for you.
Thomas R Verny MD (37:06):
Well, I appreciate your empathy.
No, it was, it was notbothering me.
Wayne Altman (37:14):
What causes that?
You have any idea why we, we'rehumans.
We have a tendency to repeatcertain things, i guess.
Thomas R Verny MD (37:23):
Yes, we do, yeah, And there are certain
words that people repeat overand over again.
I think it's just somethingthey get into a habit and then
they do it.
You know the way we sit, forexample.
You know you have a way ofsitting, i have a way of sitting
, and it's the same thing withwords.
(37:43):
You know there are certainwords that you know.
When I do interviews, forexample, there are people who
repeat the word so, so over andover and over again, every
sentence, almost So after that,right, you know I went, and so,
(38:05):
yes, yes, so there you go.
I don't know, i don't know why.
Wayne Altman (38:11):
Do you think it's a soothing?
Is it?
is it to soothe them in anervous situation?
Thomas R Verny MD (38:16):
I think so.
I think so The more nervousthey are, the more they sort of
fall back on habits.
Wayne Altman (38:25):
I can see being nervous on someone else's
podcast, like, for instance okay, we don't know one another
incredibly well right
Thomas R Verny MD (38:37):
We're trying to exchange information.
Yeah, you don't want to make amistake, you don't want to look
foolish.
Wayne Altman (38:44):
Maybe I don't know .
I'm going to go back throughevery interview I've done.
I've done hundreds ofinterviews for Melody Clouds.
Now I'm now going to have to goback through every single one
of those interviews and find outwhat it is.
Maybe it's talk with my hands,but I'm going to have to go back
and find out what my I don'tknow what you would call that
tick tell.
I don't know what you wouldcall that, but I need to go back
(39:06):
and find out where those thingsare for me, because I think
that people that are I don'tknow, it's very maybe calming
for the individual doing it, butfor the people that are
watching it, i'm not so sure.
Thomas R Verny MD (39:24):
Yeah, you're right, .
Yes, it can be distracting, but, on the other hand, people also
like people who are not perfect, it's true, right.
So it's less intimidating ifthey see someone making mistakes
(39:44):
if you like, in quotation marks, mistakes, because it's not a
mistake, but it is less thanperfect.
You pick up on the fact thatthey're anxious, which then
makes me feel good because, ah,there's another person who is
anxious.
So it's not so bad if I getanxious once in a while.
(40:06):
It gives me permission to beimperfect, and that's always
good.
That always feels good for us.
Wayne Altman (40:18):
You know that's coming up a lot more and more.
I'm doing some work with agroup that we're doing a lot of
AI research, artificialintelligence research?
Yes, of course, and trying todiscern, and it used to be that
it was very easy to tell thatyou were talking to artificial
intelligence, right?
It's not that scary, it's not?
Thomas R Verny MD (40:40):
that scary, they're scary.
Wayne Altman (40:41):
They're getting more and more and more difficult
to tell the difference betweensomeone that's you know, someone
, but I mean an artificial,intelligent and the and a human
being, and it is their lines are.
I never thought I would saythose things.
I always thought that, no, thiswould be.
(41:02):
This will always be easy totell the difference.
We're talking about humanbeings here, and the fact of the
matter is it is getting moreand more and more difficult to
tell where that line is.
Who is?
Thomas R Verny MD (41:16):
who's not.
Absolutely well.
I'm a chess player and you knowchess.
Chess programs already 10, 15years ago were so perfect that
only the best players in theworld would have any chance of
beating them, and nowadays it'salmost impossible, really, yeah.
Wayne Altman (41:40):
We have just suppressed.
well, I can see that processingpower is really chess, Exactly.
Thomas R Verny MD (41:45):
You need a lot of processing power to
figure out what moves or whatThat's right And all the
possibilities and all theoptions and what are the
consequences of each move right?
And the computer can think 10moves ahead, whereas you know
people like myself, i'm lucky tobe able to move to think three
or four moves ahead.
Wayne Altman (42:06):
Yeah my middle daughter got into chess quite a
bit, when she won't play thegame at all now.
We'll not play the game at allat all now.
Why?
Because she got very good at avery young age.
Thomas R Verny MD (42:21):
Yeah.
Wayne Altman (42:22):
And in our area there wasn't you know, when
you're the best one in your area, you get no challenge.
She's certainly not getting achallenge from me.
I very quickly realized this.
I'm not playing this kid.
Thomas R Verny MD (42:36):
I mean.
Wayne Altman (42:36):
I've got.
this is not going to end wellfor me And no, so I see that.
And she got very discouragedvery quickly because of lack of
she couldn't play anyone.
And if she did find someonethat could challenge her, they
were so much older that itbecame very frustrating and she
(42:58):
stopped playing.
She'll probably pick it upagain at some point, just
because that's her nature.
She's very deep thinker.
She does look at you knowthings, everything is like a
chessboard to her, making movesahead.
you know what I mean.
So she will probably pick itback up later, but right now at
(43:24):
least, i don't think she hasbeen played in a long time.
Thomas R Verny MD (43:27):
I am going to get your app for sure, And I
will see what is it?
295 the first two months.
Wayne Altman (43:35):
Yeah, so it's 2.99 a month for the first two
months.
I want people to try it, okay,but the first thing you're going
to notice, the first thing thatyou're going to know, or maybe
not the first thing you're goingto notice.
Thomas R Verny MD (43:46):
Number one it's the prettiest thing in your
pocket.
Wayne Altman (43:49):
The art in it is stunning.
I only picked the best icons ofbest pictures that I could.
That's number one.
But the second thing is andthis goes for everybody out
there that may be listening tothis the largest button in
Melody Clouds is the unsubscribebutton.
Thomas R Verny MD (44:11):
And the reason that I did.
Wayne Altman (44:12):
That is because I don't want anyone to feel that
it was hard to unsubscribe Ifthis is not for you.
I don't want your money.
This is not a.
I would have charged threetimes what I'm charging, like my
competitors.
This is not that.
If you find no value in this,give it back.
(44:33):
You know, it is really not a.
I don't want to say I don'tcare but I do care that you
don't feel cheated.
Thomas R Verny MD (44:44):
How's that?
I'm very impressed, honestly,god.
I'm very, very impressed.
I love your enthusiasm, loveyour entrepreneurship, i love
the way you care about peoplewho are suffering, and so I
highly, highly, highly recommendeveryone listening to, at least
(45:06):
have a look at, melody Clouds,and they will find you on the
website Melody Clouds right.
Wayne Altman (45:12):
MelodyCloudscom they can contact me, Wayne
Altman at Melody Clouds, And Iencourage them to do that.
You know I'm overwhelmed withspam.
I would really like, I wouldreally like human interaction in
the more human interaction inmy email box.
And I respond to them.
(45:33):
It's funny.
Thomas R Verny MD (45:34):
Well, I enjoyed our human interaction
very much And I wish you thebest of luck and lots of success
.
And don't hesitate to contactme if you just want to have a
chat.
Wayne Altman (45:50):
Thomas, thank you very much And I'm going to take
you up on that.
Thomas R Verny MD (45:53):
Okay, wayne, take care, i will let you go now
, bye, bye.
Good morning.
This is Pushing Boundaries, apodcast about pioneering
research, breakthroughdiscoveries and unconventional
ideas.
I'm your host, Dr.
Thomas R Verny.
My guest today is Wayne Altman,the founder of Melody Clouds.
(00:24):
Wayne suffers from tinnitus andwas looking for relief when he
noticed that the only way hecould stop experiencing extreme
ringing in both ears was when helistened to binaural beats Now,
I'm not familiar with that termand will ask Wayne to explain
that or specific tones of music.
(00:47):
That's when he realized hecould create something for
people not limited to this onecondition, but to share the
healing and beneficial effectsof this technology with everyone
who wants it.
Wayne, may I call you WayneAltman?
I'll give that to absolutely100%.
Okay, please call me Thomas.
Okay,.
(01:09):
So to start with, Wayne,welcome.
Thank you very much.
Am I pronouncing binauralbeats
Wayne Altman (01:20):
Yeah, binaural beats, you got it 100%.
Thomas R Verny MD (01:22):
Yeah, just like it sounds Okay, so tell me,
what that is.
Wayne Altman (01:26):
Okay, a very simple explanation.
Binaural beat is two frequency,one frequency in one ear, one
frequency in another ear Closelyrelated.
your brain chooses to split thedifference.
rather than fight between thefrequencies, it just chooses to
split the difference and giveyou a frequency.
Our brain is an electricalappliance and our thoughts are
(01:52):
transmitted, our emotions aretransmitted.
It's all electrical.
If you can manipulate thefrequency of that electrical
charge, you can manipulate thefrequencies of people, their
emotions You can.
there's quite a number ofeffects that you can have over
someone in treating whatever itis that they're going through,
(02:17):
whether it's mood.
our tagline is take charge ofyour mood.
If you're sad and you don'twant to be, then you can use
binaural beats and uplift yourmood.
If they use it a lot.
with the PTSD patients, a lotof clinically depressed people
are starting to catch on tobinaural beats and very similar
(02:40):
to the way we interact withmusic.
Thomas R Verny MD (02:43):
So there are.
I know nothing about music, imean definitely not, so I would
imagine there are thousands offrequencies.
Wayne Altman (02:53):
There are The ones that we're paying attention to
most.
We've got probably, i don'tknow, two or three dozen that
really have effect on focus.
Turns out that you've heard theterm he's in the zone, she's in
the zone, normally talkingabout scoring events, right,
yeah, turns out that the zone isan actual place.
(03:15):
You can enter the zone, you canexit the zone And it's a great
deal of focus.
In other words, it's a veryhigh, concentrated focus.
You can recreate that prettymuch at will.
Thomas R Verny MD (03:31):
So how did you manage to end up with the
frequencies that produce theseresults that you are describing?
Wayne Altman (03:41):
So this research has been going on since the
mid-70s.
In what's the word I'm lookingfor?
Really concentrated efforts.
They're really concentratingtheir efforts since the mid-70s.
They had made several moviesabout this Scanners one.
They're really trying to getinto the thought control, mind
(04:02):
control.
That was another failure.
The military was doing a lot ofexperiments on this kind of
stuff.
So I think that's a great thing, but the military was doing a
lot of experiments on this kindof stuff.
What they did succeed, however,was in the therapeutic aspects,
(04:22):
and also they use it a lot withtrying to scare the enemy or
annoy the enemy.
You can really hit frequenciesthat are very detrimental to
people.
Yes, yes, yes.
Thomas R Verny MD (04:41):
So how did you arrive at the frequencies
that you use?
Wayne Altman (04:46):
So here that's an interesting story.
So you mentioned it.
I have tinnitus And you're thefirst person to interview me
that has actually said the wordcorrectly.
I had one person say tinnitus.
I mean tendinitis, tinnitus.
Thomas R Verny MD (05:00):
Five minutes.
Wayne Altman (05:01):
Tinnitus.
I'm like look, my joints arefine.
Tinnitus is a ringing orwhooshing, or in the ear, it's
ear, the nerve of your ear isdamaged And what you're hearing
in that is the damage thatyou've done to that nerve.
And this has been going onsince I left the military.
(05:22):
I spent eight and a half yearsin the army.
I heard a lot of explosions, alot of gunfire, and so as a
teenager I listened to a lot ofloud music.
So the lesson is guard yourhearing jealously, right.
So I came out of thatexperience for the last 30 years
with this whooshing and ringingin my ear And a friend of mine
(05:47):
very good friend of mine calledme over to the house one day and
said listen, i've got somethingI want you to try.
And so I said you know, fine, weput some headphones on.
He played a track of music.
It was pretty like woo-woo,very crunchy type.
You know, music didn't doanything for him And I'm not
that, that's not who I am anywayI didn't like the music and it
(06:10):
didn't do anything for him.
So I we did it again.
He tried another track of music, same result, and so I was
getting a little bit annoyed.
I'm like what are you trying todo here?
Thomas R Verny MD (06:22):
And he said just give me a second.
Wayne Altman (06:24):
The third track he played for me, I heard
something I haven't heard in 30years and it still makes me
emotional Silence.
It took that whooshing I hear.
Right now, As you and I aretalking, I hear a very loud
ringing in my ear and awhooshing sound And that was
(06:46):
gone And I I was like stunned.
Four days later, I had thedomain Melody Clouds.
I had a collection of thesebinaural beats and I had a list
of other frequencies that may beof help to people And I
scrambled around, I hiredcomposers, I put these to music
(07:10):
and Melody Clouds was born fromthat encounter.
Thomas R Verny MD (07:15):
So, but obviously you just said that you
hear the whooshing sound rightnow, So it does not give you
permanent relief.
Wayne Altman (07:24):
Correct.
It's not a cure.
There is no cure so far fortinnitus, But what you can do is
relieve that from someone overthat period of time.
Every night I listen to 432Hertz and.
I fall asleep like a babyBecause I number.
I do two things When I go tosleep, and I'm probably the only
(07:45):
person that does this.
But when I go to sleep, my mindstarts racing with all of the
things I need to do the next dayor things that happen in that
day.
It's very distracting.
I'm exhausted, i'm ready to goto sleep, yet my mind is like
not yet.
And so when I listen to 432Hertz, i have a track of music
(08:11):
on Melody Clouds right now, andthe icon is a sleeping baby,
this very cute sleeping baby,thomas.
I have listened to 15 secondsof that music hundreds of times.
The 16th second, i'm asleep.
That's how quickly this works.
(08:34):
Now you can argue, and peoplehave asked me look, i listen to
this frequency, it didn't doanything.
I listened to this frequency,it didn't do anything.
You want to know something, tobe honest, that's what convinced
me this was real and notsomething that I just presuppose
and imagine, because when yougo to the doctor and he
(08:55):
prescribes medication, the nextvisit is how did that medication
work?
It's going to work differentlyfor you than it does for me, and
so I realized that and I waslike you know what?
It's not necessarily a badthing that it doesn't work the
same way in everybody.
No, nothing does.
We're all unique individuals.
Thomas R Verny MD (09:17):
Right, right, right.
So in your Melody Clouds, whatdo you call it?
Is it like a website or abusiness?
Wayne Altman (09:33):
What is it?
Melodycloudscom is the website.
I went and had an iOS app builtfor the iPhone and an Android
app built for it.
It's portable now You can takeit anywhere you want to go.
It's very similar to CalmHeadspace, so relaxation app.
(09:55):
That's really basically what itamounts to.
We have taken over 18,000audiobooks all the classics Tom
Sawyer, huck Finn.
Some people like being read too, other people like reading
themselves.
There's 8,000 hours of binauralbeats and sulfesio frequencies.
Thomas R Verny MD (10:19):
There is What is sulfesio.
Wayne Altman (10:22):
Okay, sulfesio, you were talking about the fact
that you didn't know anythingabout music.
I'm very similar.
Before all this, i was in avery similar boat.
I can't carry a tune and Ican't play a note on an
instrument.
However, the one thing that youand I share with all the people
who can is we know when a sournote has been played.
Thomas R Verny MD (10:44):
Yes.
Wayne Altman (10:45):
We know when someone is singing out of tune,
it bothers us just as much as itbothers the acapella opera
singer True True.
Okay, that's sulfesio.
Thomas R Verny MD (10:56):
Yeah.
Wayne Altman (10:56):
That is our natural ability to recognize.
Wait a minute, something'swrong here.
This is the same as if you andI were to step into an opera
where there's a master ofsinging.
It is going to move us in avery similar way as everyone
(11:17):
else.
Right, that is sulfesio.
It was, i don't like to say,invented.
It was observed by an 11thcentury monk named Guido di
Arezzo.
I always mention him because Ilove number one, i love the name
Number two.
That's a really genius way oflooking at things, something
(11:41):
that we all, everyone shares.
If you're listening to someonewho can really sing, and it may
not even be in a form that youreally appreciate normally.
Thomas R Verny MD (11:54):
Would you spell the name of that monk
again please?
Wayne Altman (11:57):
Yes, it's G-U-I-D-O, g-u-i-v-o.
Guido right, yeah, d ApostropheArezzo, a-r-r-z-o Or Z-Z-O.
Thomas R Verny MD (12:15):
Arosso.
Wayne Altman (12:16):
Yeah, arezzo, i hope I've been pronouncing that
correctly.
I'll look it up.
Thomas R Verny MD (12:23):
I'll look it up.
Yeah, so you say you have 8,000hours 8,000 hours of binaural
beats.
Why do you need excuse me, whydo you need 8,000 hours?
I mean, wouldn't 100 hours beenough?
Wayne Altman (12:39):
Certainly not.
That's why we have differentmusic, different tracks for
people.
That's why we perform more thanone opera.
Some people like they're in astyle of a certain style, other
people like it serve to them ina different style.
Some frequencies, like I said,some frequencies, will not work
with some individuals, so youneed to have more than one
(13:02):
frequency, more than one trackin each of those frequencies, in
different styles.
Do you like banjo music?
Yeah, okay, a little bit, nottoo much.
I love banjo music.
You want to make someone happy,play the banjo.
I've never seen anyone frowningaround banjo music, but there
(13:23):
are some people.
We would probably agree.
Some people cannot stand banjomusic.
My grandfather, for example,couldn't stand to hear a violin
play.
Right, i was like wait, what doyou mean?
you don't like hearing a violin?
I mean someone that is playinga, whether it's a fiddle or
whether it's a violin.
Thomas R Verny MD (13:42):
I enjoy that music very much.
Wayne Altman (13:44):
Yeah same here, so I wanted to make an app that
was for everyone.
Everyone was able to findsomething in it that they
enjoyed, and it would relax them.
Thomas R Verny MD (14:00):
So do you have any way of predicting which
type of music is going to fitbest a certain type of
personality?
Wayne Altman (14:11):
No, yet I do know that we're working on a couple
of different things that willkind of give people an idea of
what is going to suit them,what's going to help them, But
so far it really hasn't bornethat much fruit.
It really is something that youneed to experience and find out
what's going to suit you, whattype of music you enjoy.
(14:34):
Number one, Because that helpsa great deal.
I have found out that thathelps a great deal.
If you're enjoying the soundsthat this is couched in, then it
has a better chance of workingand doing the expected outcome.
Sure, that makes sense One thingI will say is that, especially
(14:54):
when you're talking about 8.52Hertz, when you're talking about
6.39 Hertz, those things,there's an expected result from
listening to those binauralbeats And I have discovered
after the last year, year and ahalf, that those fall in line
exactly with what the expectedbenefit was going to be, as it's
(15:18):
being reported back to me.
Thomas R Verny MD (15:20):
So you said that what you have said two
things now.
One is that your tinnitus goesaway, or at least is suspended,
while you're still listening toyour sounds.
And secondly that was in a fewminutes you fall asleep when you
play it.
Wayne Altman (15:39):
You seconds.
It doesn't take more.
I mean I can't even get to aminute.
I cannot even get to a minuteNow.
These are all differentfrequencies.
One Frequency does one thing,one frequency does the other
thing.
So at night I have to make adecision.
Do I get rid of the tinnitus?
Yes, do I want to sleep?
Thomas R Verny MD (16:00):
All right, all right.
So let's say that I want to goto sleep at night.
So how do I go about buying oneof your melody clouds Tunes, i
guess, or whatever it's?
Wayne Altman (16:15):
a subscription.
Okay it's subscription base.
Yeah, i'm For two months, forfor 60 days.
I want people to try this out.
So, 60 days, it's $2.99 centsper month for 60 days.
Two months After that, if youfind that this is something that
you you know this is beneficialfor you, i charge $5.99 cents
(16:39):
thereafter.
So I'm really trying to, youknow, break the bit, i'm sure
sure That's very reasonable.
Thomas R Verny MD (16:47):
So what?
what do people get for the 599?
Wayne Altman (16:51):
Okay.
So 18,000 audiobooks, 8,000hours of binaural beats.
These binaural beats are in thedifferent frequencies, so
different tracks of music andthose frequencies.
Listen to it as much as youwant.
E-sobs fables I'm sure you'refamiliar with these tops fables.
You got a big smile on yourface, just like I do.
(17:11):
I Love those stories, me too.
Me too.
So, okay, well, this would bebetter.
This would help you becauseGary Meyer, a very good friend
of mine, reads E-sobs fables inmelody clouds.
He is a I don't know if you'refamiliar with Gary, but he's a
Hall of Fame.
He's in the Radio Hall of Fameright under Marconi.
(17:34):
Gary reads these stories.
He does a brilliant job.
They're about a minute, minuteand a half each as read and I
Burst into tears the first timeI heard him read my stories on
melody clouds.
It was that emotional for mebecause, number one, i love the
story so much and he does agreat job In in reading them.
(17:58):
It really kind of brings thestory, excuse me to light.
Thomas R Verny MD (18:03):
So what does the app do?
you said that you have launchedan app for iOS and Android.
What does the app do for aperson?
Wayne Altman (18:12):
So that's where all the music is right.
So you go in the view, open theapp, sign it.
Sign up, open the app and yousee 18,000 audiobooks searchable
, searchable by title,searchable by author, all in
chronological chapter order.
Right, the e-sobs fablesthere's icons telling you where,
(18:36):
which, each, where each of thefables are Lullabies.
We'll talk about Lullabies.
So I This is really what morepeople contact me about I'm
getting a suspicious number ofContact by new parents And I
(18:57):
think this is something you'regonna be very interested in,
because I've heard about yourbook.
I'm looking forward to readingit.
The Lullabies are cut in fiveto ten hour sections and the
thought being That the firstskill a child learns after being
born is how to self sue, you're, you're hoping that they learn
(19:21):
very quickly how to getthemselves back to sleep, should
they wake up in the middle ofthe night.
Agree?
Thomas R Verny MD (19:27):
Yeah, agreed, though a lot of them, as many
new parents, will testify.
Don't learn it for quite awhile, right?
Wayne Altman (19:35):
This helps to cut that time down, the theory being
You put the baby down, youstart playing the lullaby.
That lullaby is cut in a longerformat.
So in the middle of the night,when they wake up, they're
hearing the same music played inthe same environment.
They realize very quicklyeverything around them is fine,
(19:57):
safe, warm, dry, and they canlearn to get themselves back to
sleep after fussing you a veryshort period of time.
So creating that environmentaround them that is the same as
when you put them down for sleepat night Has a tendency to
shorten that time.
Right now We're looking ataround 30%.
(20:18):
That's what's being reported tome.
I'm not there to witness this,but I do have Handfuls of email
from people going.
You are a genius, which, iremind, i share my with my wife
all the time.
I'm a genius.
Yeah, just, that was anaccidental.
I Just decided look, we'regonna, we're gonna cut these
(20:40):
into longer lullabies, right,and That was the happy so far
has been the happy result ofthat.
Thomas R Verny MD (20:54):
Well, that's, that's an amazing, amazing work
you have done for a person whohas Actually never had anything
to do with electronics, i wouldimagine, or music none, none, no
, nothing in as far as musicgoes.
Wayne Altman (21:11):
I look I have other businesses.
That is really what my forte is.
Yeah, is taking an idea andcreating and making a business,
and This was something for thefirst time that I really felt
like I had a stake in it, that Ihad a personal Connection to
(21:32):
that business.
The others were monetary Let'searn a living.
Yeah, i had had that beateninto my brain.
You know, from a very young age.
You gotta be, you know, you gotto give right, you got to learn
earn a living.
This is a little bit differentand it's one of the reasons why
I charge what I charge for it.
It pays the bills.
(21:54):
There's I'm.
You know.
I was offended by how muchother apps like this were
charging.
It offended me personally,offended me, and So I did this
on a, on a, i think, a betterapp and a for a better price.
Thomas R Verny MD (22:14):
So you mentioned, you mentioned a
little bit about your upbringing.
Was there, was there anythingin terms of your relationship to
your parents or what yourfather or mother did that kind
of Contributed to your interestin this subject?
Wayne Altman (22:38):
Look, my parents were probably the two most
supportive and you know I maynot have always agreed with them
.
You know what I mean as normalchild relationship.
I mean you know who does Right,right.
But I was very close to myparents.
They both passed on.
They're sitting within an arm'sreach of me right now on my
(22:58):
desk.
They really did open the worldas much as they could to me.
I have siblings the same withthem.
They were very supportive.
We were in scouting.
You know these.
I have always been interestedby a lot of different things.
I have written six books.
Not one of those books did Iwrite before.
(23:22):
I mean after becoming an expert.
I always became an expert inthe subject material while
writing the book.
I figured that this is the wayto learn a subject.
You've written a book, you knowyou learn more after the book
is finished than you did writingthe book.
Thomas R Verny MD (23:42):
This is very true, right.
Wayne Altman (23:45):
If you've done it correctly.
If you've done it correctly,you've done, you've learned more
And now you can call yourselfan expert, maybe at the end,
once you've written the endRight.
Thomas R Verny MD (23:56):
And the interesting thing is that
sometimes other people seethings in your book that you
never imagined were there 100%.
Wayne Altman (24:05):
That is 100% true.
Thomas R Verny MD (24:07):
Which comes then as a surprise.
Oh really, You know?
did I write that, You know, ordid I imply that in my writing?
Hey, that's very good.
I'm glad I did that.
Wayne Altman (24:18):
Yeah, I did a book on credit called When Bad
Credit Happens to Good People.
I realized that when I wasgoing through college, when I
was going in the military, thatthere was no credit education in
the United States for people.
You could get all the creditthat you wanted, but you were
not allowed to educate peopleabout how the system worked
(24:40):
Right, And I found thatpersonally offensive.
So I set out to write When BadCredit Happens to Good People
and that's what I learned.
I learned so much duringwriting that book about the
American credit system that it'scarried over into every single
thing, every project I've donesince then, In terms of melody
(25:00):
clouds, how long ago did youstart this?
Thomas R Verny MD (25:04):
When did you start?
Wayne Altman (25:06):
One year and one month.
Today is the sixth.
Today is the sixth On theseventh last year.
we yes, right, we are in 138countries.
We are translated into 203languages.
We let me think what else.
I was just going over this theother day.
(25:26):
Yeah, we have ramped this up totwo apps, a website, oh yeah.
Thomas R Verny MD (25:35):
So when you say we, who else is involved?
Wayne Altman (25:38):
Well, i, you know me, my wife, i've got a team of
people that help.
I couldn't possibly doeverything myself.
I do like to take the credit,though.
Thomas R Verny MD (25:46):
So that's a good point.
Wayne Altman (25:48):
I do like to take the credit for all of this.
Thomas R Verny MD (25:52):
So did you make any mistakes along the way
during the last you know year?
Wayne Altman (25:58):
Well, I'm really.
It's a good thing I'm not oneto dwell on the mistakes that
I've made, because I would havejumped off a bridge a long time
ago, I mean anyone that tellsyou that they didn't make a
mistake in doing something likethis is they're delusional.
They need mental health.
So, yes, I made a tremendousand continue to make mistakes.
(26:19):
Number one when you, when youtrust people to do a job for you
that you know, you sometimesyou make misjudgments on whether
or not they can a complete thework or B are going to be honest
about the work that they'vecompleted.
Some people are, you know,human being is a fallible thing,
(26:42):
you know.
So, yes, there were somemistakes that were made in
trusting certain people oragreements that people had made,
but overall, I learned a lotfrom it And I'm very grateful to
those people who did that,because I now know more, having
had to do it myself or fix thatfire.
(27:03):
They would set things on fire,Thomas.
They would set things on fireand I would have to figure out
how am I for the life of MelodyClouds, how am I going to put
out this fire and make thisbetter and fire proof next time?
Thomas R Verny MD (27:20):
So do you have any children?
Wayne Altman (27:23):
I do.
I have three beautifuldaughters, geniuses.
They are way smarter than theirparents And that's a.
That's a scary thing, veryscary thing.
How old are they?
So I have one that's 22, onethat she just completed a
psychology degree in universityI have, 18 year old, that we, my
(27:48):
wife and I, are taking her.
Exactly one month from today,she will be in Iowa on a full
scholarship to play volleyballand study biology and chemistry.
So we're very proud of her.
And then I have one that isgoing to be 15, two days.
Two days from now her birthday.
(28:10):
Happy birthday, momo.
Thomas R Verny MD (28:14):
So do they follow?
do any of them want to followin your footsteps?
Wayne Altman (28:20):
I think to a certain degree all three of them
bear my markings of parentingMy middle daughter.
She speaks three languages, sheknows how to sew, she loves to
bake.
She's very, very smart kid, soI like to think I contributed
(28:41):
some intelligence to her.
My wife would argue with that.
She thinks that comes from herand she's well.
She's welcome to her opinion.
My oldest daughter is a supercaring individual, very, very
smart.
She has a deep interest inchildren and learning And I
think that that it comes from me.
(29:02):
Again, my wife is veryargumentative and thinks that
she had something to do withthat And my youngest is a very
personable, hilarious individual.
I mean lights up a room when shewalks into it.
I've said to people that if youdon't like me, I understand,
(29:25):
But if you don't like my wife ormy youngest daughter, I know
where the problem is And it'syou, it's you.
Thomas R Verny MD (29:32):
You are the problem, it's you, it's you.
So just to change theatmosphere here for a second If
you could have dinner with anythree people, alive or dead, who
would it be?
Wayne Altman (29:47):
So the first one, for sure, without any question,
would be my father.
I would love to have dinnerwith my dad and kind of show him
where his efforts led and beable to share with him where his
grandchildren are and whatthey're doing.
So that's number one.
Let's see Charlie Ward.
(30:12):
Charlie Ward, basically, wasanother father figure to me.
He's passed away.
I would love to have dinnerwith him and kind of have.
We used to have these very deepphilosophical conversations and
I missed that, the depth that Icould go with Charlie about
(30:32):
spiritual theology.
I missed that tremendously.
So he would be invited to thatdinner and I think he and my
father would get along very well.
So that's important.
That's important And I thinkthat I would like to have.
I don't think, i know I wouldlike to have a dinner with Jesus
(30:54):
.
I would love to have that, andprobably before the other two.
Even, i would really like toget to the bottom of some things
.
I am incredibly curious.
Thomas R Verny MD (31:12):
You're the second person in the last two
weeks who has told me that.
That's very interesting Interms of what you just mentioned
, jesus, and you mentioned thesecond person, ward, that you
used to have, that you used tohave really deep conversations
(31:35):
with.
So forgive me for being apsychiatrist, but are you doing
so much to help other peoplewith their emotions and their
(31:56):
problems?
What do you do for yourselfthat keeps you sane?
Wayne Altman (32:06):
Well, i will say this that my focus being on my
children and keeping it off ofme and my problems.
We spent last week in Chicagoat the National Volleyball
Tournament.
That, to me, was one of thegreatest times I ever got to
spend with my children.
One of them was participatingand getting to watch her excel
(32:29):
at something that she's very,very good at Really soothed my
soul.
It really helped me.
It was a very expensive trip.
It was a very expensive trip,but that is something that I
really appreciated.
Thomas R Verny MD (32:48):
And I'll tell you something else.
Wayne Altman (32:49):
And I hope everyone has this ability or has
this opportunity.
But I have two friends.
I have more than one, more thantwo friends, but two friends in
specific Rick Reinholz andSteve Jackson.
And I've known them since 12,13 years old for Steve and maybe
(33:10):
15, 16-year-old for Rick, so 40some years.
We've known one another.
We played golf a couple, threetimes a year.
They live in different statesAnd just talking to them on the
phone or just being in theirpresence and being able to have
that camaraderie, thatfellowship, really does a lot
(33:34):
for me.
They're very good for me when Iwant to bounce off ideas And
there's also a competitiveelement.
We always want to.
You know there's a little bit.
It's healthy, but it's there,it is definitely there.
So we play, whether we playgolf, whether we in business,
how we're doing or how our kidsare doing, there's always this
(33:56):
underlying, you know,competitive hate.
I'm glad to see you're doingwell, right.
Thomas R Verny MD (34:04):
Yeah, i understand.
I understand.
So, in terms of your life andour life and the life we live,
what does it mean to you to behuman?
What does being human mean toyou?
Wayne Altman (34:24):
Well, i honestly think that we're all here to
take care of one another.
We have the capacity of, youknow, really great amount of
care and love.
We also have the capacity ofthe opposite of that.
We show it all the time.
But really, those moments, youknow, it cannot be denied that,
(34:45):
those moments that we allappreciate, when we see two
human beings interact and lovein a filial, you know,
fellowship, you know that'sreally what melts hearts and
what really, you know, makespeople feel good.
The fact that we're stilldisgusted when we see people
(35:06):
mistreat one another, that to me, is a miracle.
Thomas R Verny MD (35:14):
I understand.
So you said that you had somequestions of me.
Go ahead, ask anything you like.
Wayne Altman (35:22):
Well, i was.
I didn't know it was going tobe part of this, but you know,
look, there are there, are?
you said something in aninterview and now that you put
me on the spot, i'm going toforget what I was talking about
Oh well, that's okay, We can doit at the time.
I was watching you in aninterview, i was, oh, this is
what I was talking about.
Okay, so you had a gentlemanthat was nodding his head while
(35:45):
you were speaking deeply, youknow, in agreement, but it was a
every time you would speak.
He was in the back and he wasnodding his head.
This like this.
And I had a very similarsituation where someone that was
interviewing me was saying hesaid a key, he'll give it away.
(36:06):
He said a word every inagreement, but he's he'd say
this word over and over and overis incredibly distracting in
the interview.
What was the word?
Thomas R Verny MD (36:17):
What was the word that he said?
Wayne Altman (36:19):
Well, it'll give it away who it was.
I don't want to tell you whatthe word was.
Thomas R Verny MD (36:22):
I'll tell you after.
Wayne Altman (36:23):
Okay, but it was, it was in agreement, he was
being in agreement with me And Ifound it extraordinarily hard
to concentrate on theconversation because he was
doing this and I was going toask you did you find it as
discombobulating that, that thatrepetitive motion that you know
(36:44):
every time?
you would say something in thisinterview and you?
you never mentioned it.
at least I didn't see youmention it or call him out or
ask it what are you doing?
Because I was screaming at my.
I was screaming at my monitor.
what are you doing?
Why are you doing that?
It was bothering me for you.
It was bothering me for you.
Thomas R Verny MD (37:06):
Well, I appreciate your empathy.
No, it was, it was notbothering me.
Wayne Altman (37:14):
What causes that?
You have any idea why we, we'rehumans.
We have a tendency to repeatcertain things, i guess.
Thomas R Verny MD (37:23):
Yes, we do, yeah, And there are certain
words that people repeat overand over again.
I think it's just somethingthey get into a habit and then
they do it.
You know the way we sit, forexample.
You know you have a way ofsitting, i have a way of sitting
, and it's the same thing withwords.
(37:43):
You know there are certainwords that you know.
When I do interviews, forexample, there are people who
repeat the word so, so over andover and over again, every
sentence, almost So after that,right, you know I went, and so,
(38:05):
yes, yes, so there you go.
I don't know, i don't know why.
Wayne Altman (38:11):
Do you think it's a soothing?
Is it?
is it to soothe them in anervous situation?
Thomas R Verny MD (38:16):
I think so.
I think so The more nervousthey are, the more they sort of
fall back on habits.
Wayne Altman (38:25):
I can see being nervous on someone else's
podcast, like, for instance okay, we don't know one another
incredibly well right
Thomas R Verny MD (38:37):
We're trying to exchange information.
Yeah, you don't want to make amistake, you don't want to look
foolish.
Wayne Altman (38:44):
Maybe I don't know .
I'm going to go back throughevery interview I've done.
I've done hundreds ofinterviews for Melody Clouds.
Now I'm now going to have to goback through every single one
of those interviews and find outwhat it is.
Maybe it's talk with my hands,but I'm going to have to go back
and find out what my I don'tknow what you would call that
tick tell.
I don't know what you wouldcall that, but I need to go back
(39:06):
and find out where those thingsare for me, because I think
that people that are I don'tknow, it's very maybe calming
for the individual doing it, butfor the people that are
watching it, i'm not so sure.
Thomas R Verny MD (39:24):
Yeah, you're right, .
Yes, it can be distracting, but, on the other hand, people also
like people who are not perfect, it's true, right.
So it's less intimidating ifthey see someone making mistakes
(39:44):
if you like, in quotation marks, mistakes, because it's not a
mistake, but it is less thanperfect.
You pick up on the fact thatthey're anxious, which then
makes me feel good because, ah,there's another person who is
anxious.
So it's not so bad if I getanxious once in a while.
(40:06):
It gives me permission to beimperfect, and that's always
good.
That always feels good for us.
Wayne Altman (40:18):
You know that's coming up a lot more and more.
I'm doing some work with agroup that we're doing a lot of
AI research, artificialintelligence research?
Yes, of course, and trying todiscern, and it used to be that
it was very easy to tell thatyou were talking to artificial
intelligence, right?
It's not that scary, it's not?
Thomas R Verny MD (40:40):
that scary, they're scary.
Wayne Altman (40:41):
They're getting more and more and more difficult
to tell the difference betweensomeone that's you know, someone
, but I mean an artificial,intelligent and the and a human
being, and it is their lines are.
I never thought I would saythose things.
I always thought that, no, thiswould be.
(41:02):
This will always be easy totell the difference.
We're talking about humanbeings here, and the fact of the
matter is it is getting moreand more and more difficult to
tell where that line is.
Who is?
Thomas R Verny MD (41:16):
who's not.
Absolutely well.
I'm a chess player and you knowchess.
Chess programs already 10, 15years ago were so perfect that
only the best players in theworld would have any chance of
beating them, and nowadays it'salmost impossible, really, yeah.
Wayne Altman (41:40):
We have just suppressed.
well, I can see that processingpower is really chess, Exactly.
Thomas R Verny MD (41:45):
You need a lot of processing power to
figure out what moves or whatThat's right And all the
possibilities and all theoptions and what are the
consequences of each move right?
And the computer can think 10moves ahead, whereas you know
people like myself, i'm lucky tobe able to move to think three
or four moves ahead.
Wayne Altman (42:06):
Yeah my middle daughter got into chess quite a
bit, when she won't play thegame at all now.
We'll not play the game at allat all now.
Why?
Because she got very good at avery young age.
Thomas R Verny MD (42:21):
Yeah.
Wayne Altman (42:22):
And in our area there wasn't you know, when
you're the best one in your area, you get no challenge.
She's certainly not getting achallenge from me.
I very quickly realized this.
I'm not playing this kid.
Thomas R Verny MD (42:36):
I mean.
Wayne Altman (42:36):
I've got.
this is not going to end wellfor me And no, so I see that.
And she got very discouragedvery quickly because of lack of
she couldn't play anyone.
And if she did find someonethat could challenge her, they
were so much older that itbecame very frustrating and she
(42:58):
stopped playing.
She'll probably pick it upagain at some point, just
because that's her nature.
She's very deep thinker.
She does look at you knowthings, everything is like a
chessboard to her, making movesahead.
you know what I mean.
So she will probably pick itback up later, but right now at
(43:24):
least, i don't think she hasbeen played in a long time.
Thomas R Verny MD (43:27):
I am going to get your app for sure, And I
will see what is it?
295 the first two months.
Wayne Altman (43:35):
Yeah, so it's 2.99 a month for the first two
months.
I want people to try it, okay,but the first thing you're going
to notice, the first thing thatyou're going to know, or maybe
not the first thing you're goingto notice.
Thomas R Verny MD (43:46):
Number one it's the prettiest thing in your
pocket.
Wayne Altman (43:49):
The art in it is stunning.
I only picked the best icons ofbest pictures that I could.
That's number one.
But the second thing is andthis goes for everybody out
there that may be listening tothis the largest button in
Melody Clouds is the unsubscribebutton.
Thomas R Verny MD (44:11):
And the reason that I did.
Wayne Altman (44:12):
That is because I don't want anyone to feel that
it was hard to unsubscribe Ifthis is not for you.
I don't want your money.
This is not a.
I would have charged threetimes what I'm charging, like my
competitors.
This is not that.
If you find no value in this,give it back.
(44:33):
You know, it is really not a.
I don't want to say I don'tcare but I do care that you
don't feel cheated.
Thomas R Verny MD (44:44):
How's that?
I'm very impressed, honestly,god.
I'm very, very impressed.
I love your enthusiasm, loveyour entrepreneurship, i love
the way you care about peoplewho are suffering, and so I
highly, highly, highly recommendeveryone listening to, at least
(45:06):
have a look at, melody Clouds,and they will find you on the
website Melody Clouds right.
Wayne Altman (45:12):
MelodyCloudscom they can contact me, Wayne
Altman at Melody Clouds, And Iencourage them to do that.
You know I'm overwhelmed withspam.
I would really like, I wouldreally like human interaction in
the more human interaction inmy email box.
And I respond to them.
(45:33):
It's funny.
Thomas R Verny MD (45:34):
Well, I enjoyed our human interaction
very much And I wish you thebest of luck and lots of success
.
And don't hesitate to contactme if you just want to have a
chat.
Wayne Altman (45:50):
Thomas, thank you very much And I'm going to take
you up on that.
Thomas R Verny MD (45:53):
Okay, wayne, take care, i will let you go now
, bye, bye.
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