March 3, 2023 • 32 mins
Working as an engineer at Hewlett Packard for many years, John was valued and compensated for his left brain skills. When his wife Pam died at 62, he experienced emotions he had never felt before and began to embrace empathy and compassion for other hurting people. Listen in as John explains his right brain awakening and other valuable lessons learned following his wife's passing.
#empath #grief #rightbrainawakening
to purchase John's book:
https://smile.amazon.com/Right-Brain-Awakening-Heartbroken-Engineer/dp/1955711208/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1COTMIIIEJVOL&keywords=john+lodal&qid=1676601355&sprefix=%2Caps%2C165&sr=8-1
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Episode Transcript
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Michelle (00:10):
Hey everybody and welcome back to Qualified, the
place where incredible peopleshare their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope. I'm Michelle Heaton.
Before we experienced great lossin our life, we were different
people. We of course heardstories about others who had
(00:30):
lost their children, or theirspouses, and the thought of it
made us recoil in fear. We mayhave entertained the thought for
a moment. But if you're like me,you quickly pushed it right out
of your mind. We don't even wantto imagine what that devastation
would feel like, or what itseffect would be on us. And the
thought that something goodcould ever come from losing
(00:53):
someone we'd love dearly, wasthe furthest thing from our
minds. But that was then. Onthe other side of loss, I can
tell you that good does occur.
Beauty does emerge, and pain canreveal purpose. Well, my guest
today is a man who hasexperienced great loss. His
(01:16):
wife, Pam died of cancer in2019. Prior to her passing, he
characterized himself as afull-on type A a engineer and
geek, who's left brain dominatedhis way of thinking at all
times. But now following Pam'sdeath, he underwent a radical
transformation that he calls hisright brain awakening. And he
(01:40):
now defines himself as anauthor, Father, widower,
engineer, and newly mintedempath. I love it. His name is
John Lodal and it's my honor tohave him on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified John.
John (01:57):
Thank you, Michelle. I'm glad to be here. I appreciate
you inviting me.
Michelle (02:00):
Great. Well, John, I've been looking so forward to
this conversation since we firstmet. I read your book, I picked
your brain. And I'm ready tothrow some questions your way.
So can you kick things off bytelling us about your wife, Pam,
and the relationship you tooshared?
John (02:17):
I can do that. Indeed. I met Pam in high school. And I
was amazed that she even noticedme. I'm still grateful for that.
We very quickly I realized this,this was my true love. It was it
was always a very easycompanionship. I loved being in
her presence. This was full lifefor me just to be around Pam.
And soon after we moved out toBoise from Champaign Urbana. I
(02:40):
went to work for HP. And westarted our life. We had no
family around us, we had tofigure out what it was between
us. And we had a lot of sharedadventures here in Idaho, and
also beyond the borders of theUnited States. But it was it was
a relationship that alwaysfulfilled me. It always filled
me up. And I was never reallyinterested in any other woman.
(03:00):
She was the one I wanted. Andthat was always grateful that
she chose me. I'm I'm glad Ididn't take that for granted.
Michelle (03:07):
John, that sounds like a great relationship, and that
you two are made for each other.
So sadly, on October 31 2019,after a courageous battle with
cancer, Pam ultimately passedaway. Can you talk a little
about your immediate reactionand your grief at that time?
John (03:29):
That's a difficult night to remember. Pam and I had been
in hospice for about five weeks,she had fought head and neck
cancer and this was the thirdround and this time but it was
clear that it was getting theupper hand. So I was doing
everything I could to be thebest caregiver I could do. It
was in looking back and at thethe intensity, the focus of
caregiving was kind ofextraordinary. I really hadn't
(03:51):
thought at all about what wasgoing to happen after after that
sad event came to pass. So thatnight, about a quarter to 10 I
came out and found her with nopulse and she was still warm.
I'd been answering the door fortrick or treaters, I've been
washing dishes. And I fuzzed outI now know with some help from
my grief counselor that this wasa reaction that I characterize
(04:13):
as mental circuit breakers and Igo into that in the book and
they all blew open. This is thisis a self preservation thing
that allows us to move forwardamidst overwhelming grief, and I
probably sat next to her bed forabout 20 or 30 minutes before I
figured I should probably callsomeone. And so I called my son
who was in town and I calledhospice. They came over and took
(04:36):
care of the of the nuts andbolts, but it was an
overwhelming thing. And it wasabsolutely brand new territory.
And to tell you the truth, Ican't remember it in great
detail but that particular nightis still pretty fuzzy and that
has to do with all those circuitbreakers in my brain blowing
open. And then I was absolutelyunprepared. I had been so
focused on being the bestcaregiver I could that I had
(04:58):
done no planning no fore thoughtat all about, well, what happens
when she when she dies? There Iwas faced with it.
Michelle (05:06):
Yeah, it must have been so difficult for you. And I
can only imagine how hard itwould be to transition your mind
from being a selfless caregiverto now a grieving husband who
actually needed to be cared for.
So if you would tell us aboutwhat you experienced next with
other people, and what youconcluded about how our society
respond to grieving people
John (05:28):
There was a lot going on.
So I had planned Pam's memorialservice or celebration of life
for five weeks. So I had, I hadall that time to allow people to
make travel plans to come tosouthwest Idaho to say goodbye.
And my phone was really quiet.
And I didn't, I didn't know whatI was doing. I was I was just
kind of stumbling through thedays. But I now realized that
(05:50):
there were a lot of other peoplethat were experiencing
widespread and deep grief, shewas a good friend of many
people, and we were all going tomiss her. But after her memorial
service, that's when I came tothe conclusion, I'm glad I did
that, boy, I'm going to needsome help here. This is this is
something I cannot do on my own,I have no idea what to do next.
And this is going to eat mealive if I don't do something
(06:11):
about it. And that's when Ithat's when I contacted a friend
who put me in touch with mygrief counselor. And this was a
big deal. Because one of thethings that I can share with
your listeners is that griefcounselors are the decoders of
grief. We are not trained inAmerican culture to do anything
about grief when it hits us.
We're like, what are we supposedto do now. And it's not as if
you've ever discussed it aroundthe dinner table or had your
(06:32):
parents mentor you. It's almostalways new territory for for all
of us. So I was overwhelmed. AndI read one of the things I
realized early on is that youknow, the old John is gone.
What's going to happen next whatwhat happened at that point was
that I was alone in the house.
So I hadn't lived by myself forthe better part of 45 years. And
(06:56):
I had to get used to that. But Ialso had Jerry, my grief
counselor who was helping mewith with what looked like minor
and simple instructions orrequests that allowed me to keep
moving forward on this this grimjourney of grief. I do my best
to support both of my children.
My son was living in Boise atthe time my daughter was was in
Illinois, and they had just losttheir mother. So I was doing my
(07:18):
best to make sure that I waslistening to them, I was trying
to support them. My siblingsinitially call they all came out
for the memorial service. I havea sister and a brother. But
after that I didn't hear muchfrom them. And then I'm sure
COVID played a role there aswell as as well as the American
grief illiteracy is what I'llcall it. And I was hearing from
some friends, but it seemed likethis was my real moment of need.
(07:43):
And there wasn't a whole lot oftraffic on my phone. I felt
lonely, I felt I felt invisible.
And I I realized that that wasnot a great place to be I didn't
want to wallow in self pity. AndJerry helped me through a lot of
that. So there was a lot ofgrief that was going on that
everyone was trying to deal withthe fact that Pam was gone. But
(08:05):
there wasn't a lot ofacknowledgment that John might
really need us at this point. Soother than Jerry, I wasn't
hearing from a whole lot ofpeople.
Michelle (08:14):
I'm sorry, you didn't get the support that you need it
back then. And I love the termyou use grief illiteracy,
because like you said, itdoesn't get discussed around the
dinner table. No one teaches ushow to appropriately respond to
Grievers. And in so many cases,they just flee, which feels
awful to us. So I want to pointout that you grew up as a
(08:35):
pastor's kid, and you met Pam atchurch youth camp. So it sounds
like you had a strong faithfoundation in your life from an
early age. Did that faith play arole in your grieving process
and healing? Well,
John (08:48):
there was a number of roles. You know, initially, I
could not have a civilconversation with the Almighty,
there was a lot of screaming andcussing at my walls in terms of
my perception that the Almightyhad taken Pam from me. And this
this was a real stop on my on myprogress. I had to talk to Jerry
about this. So I was extremelyangry that you could have done
(09:10):
something about this. Why didyou have to take her at age 62
When we were just getting usedto being in an empty nest. But
the things got better. So Iasked Jerry explicitly, I said,
I'm stuck. I'm so mad at God, Ican't make progress on anything
else. And so she asked me aquestion. She goes, John, do you
think that God is walking nextto you in this journey of grief?
(09:33):
And at that time? I said no. Andhe's not invited, really don't
want a company on this journey?
And she said, Well, how aboutsome of your friends? Do you
think some of your friends mightbe walking next year? I said,
yeah, there are a couple of themthat are keeping in touch. And
then she leaned forward and shelooked me in the eye. She goes,
Do you think that God might beworking through your friends in
terms of helping your grief?
Like, oh, I hadn't thought ofthat. And that that was enough
(09:56):
to get me moving forward again.
So at that point, I could Speakin a more civil tone and tongue
to the Almighty, and start tofigure out, how do I move toward
acceptance on this. And I wentthrough a program called
GriefShare, which was, which washelpful. But my brother brought
up the story from the Gospel ofJohn Chapter nine. And this is
where the disciples made a blindman on the steps and the temple
(10:18):
in Jerusalem. And one of thedisciples goes, Rabbi was at
this man's father, was it hisown? Was it his own sin that
caused him to be blind, I couldgo, I could kind of see Jesus
dropping his jaw going, No, youdon't get it at all, guys, this
man is blind for the greaterglory of God, you just can't see
the whole picture. It's like,oh, so I figure the Almighty had
(10:39):
a bigger plan for her. And thefact that these words came out
of the son of Gods now, thatalways makes me sit up and
listen a little closer. But thatthat story resonated with me in
terms of, I can't see the bigpicture. But I gotta trust that
that big picture. Makes sense.
So my faith is built around thefact that God knows me by name,
(11:03):
then then I am already forgivenand loved. Regardless of what I
do, what you find out is thatGod is trying to position us to
live the most full life we canthat we cannot earn our way into
heaven. So now, when you thinkabout okay, guys, in my corner,
God knows who I am. And he'salready forgiven me as that
might be the biggest gift thatany of us have ever been given.
(11:26):
If you are confident in that,then all of a sudden, you start
thinking about, well, how can Isay thanks to thank you for
this? Well, it's my service. Andthat has put me on a very solid
foundation, that I'm going to domy best to live my best life,
I'm going to, you know, I'mgoing to listen on Sundays when
a sermon is is preached to meand see what I can learn. But
(11:47):
I'm never going to question thefact that God knows me and loves
me. And I'm just looking forways to find the best way to say
thank you, whether that's a soupkitchen, or whether that's some
project over Boise Sunrise,Rotary, that, to me is an
extremely fulfilling way ofliving your life and saying
thank you to the Almighty, forall the blessings that we have.
(12:08):
So that level of theology, thatlevel of faith is something that
I'm really glad I'm clear on.
There are other things. I'mstill learning and I got it, I
got a long ways to go on my ownfaith journey. But that one, I
got my arms around. And I'm gladI do, because it allows me to
keep my eyes wide open. And Iknow why I'm doing good deeds,
it is not to earn heaven points,it is to say thank you, for
(12:31):
everything that has already beengiven to me. And that feels just
right. So faith has played a bigpart, I am a preacher's kid, I
am in touch with what I believein terms of my relationship with
the Almighty, and how I want tolive this life. And I'm glad but
it took a while to get there.
(12:52):
There was there was some roughdays in between.
Michelle (12:55):
I am so glad to hear that. And I completely
understand the anger at Godemotion that comes up a lot
during these podcastsinterviews. People say why would
a loving God the God that Iserve, do something like this to
me. But it's so interesting thatyou realize what you call the
big picture because that reallytakes a leap of faith to get
there. So that's awesome. Okay,so you ultimately decided to
(13:18):
write a book because of some ofthese new emotions that you were
experiencing. And you call it ARight Brain Awakening - What
Grief Taught a HeartbrokenEngineer. Great title. You said
earlier that you worked atHewlett Packard HP, and that
engineers were highly valued fortheir left brain skills. For
those of us who may notunderstand the concept of right
(13:41):
brain left brain thinking, tellus about it and what this
awakening was about and yournewfound relationship with
empathy.
John (13:49):
Thanks for asking. I was I was seeking to address what I
consider to be a literaryvacuum. I read a bunch of
terrific books after Pam died.
And I've referenced those in anappendix in the book. But none
of those were written from thepoint of view of a left brain
geek like me, I had 32 years atHP. And my problem solving
abilities were what got mecompensation. This is what was
(14:10):
valued by that employer. And Iwas good at it. I enjoyed
solving problems. And I alwayswanted to learn new stuff. So I
fully leaned into my left brain.
The general idea behind leftbrain right brain is that your
left brain folks aremathematically inclined. They're
excellent planners, they'reorganized, whereas your right
(14:32):
brain folks are empathscreatives, you can think of
maybe some musicians or griefcounselors. And what I found was
that, in order to me to makeprogress on this journey, this
path that I never wanted to beon, I really needed to lean into
some of that empathy. And thishappened naturally. As well as
(14:54):
from some of the reading that Iwas doing that I realized that
there's not much going on there.
Right It sat on my brain. Andwithout that, I am not going to
make the kind of progress thatI'm hoping to, in understanding
this train wreck that hadhappened in my life. So as I
said, a friend of mine hadwritten a book. And I had also
done a lot of journaling. AndI've done a lot of online
blogging on on what's calledCaringBridge. This is a site
(15:18):
where we shared a lot of thedetails of Pams laryngectomy, in
2017. And it was for only aspecific audience, you had to be
allowed in. And so I had a lotof great source material in
terms of, you know, what I wasfeeling when I was feeling it.
And what Steve told me was, youknow, John, that might make a
good book. And I had to wait forthe muse to arrive. And it did
(15:39):
in January of 2022. And so Ibanged out about 40,000 words
over the course of about sixweeks, and found an editor and
she said, You got somethinghere, but we got to clean it up.
It was she says it's raw, it's amess. But we think we got good
raw content here. And it could Ireally felt it could serve what
I think is a widespread need inthe United States, in terms of
(16:02):
how do you do grief? How do youHow might someone do this in an
effective manner? And let memake one more point. As I read
all these books, every one ofthem that I read, I found stuff
that I really resonated with.
And I found stuff that I thoughtwas just hogwash. And every
books and so I started cherrypicking I said, I'll take that
(16:23):
one, that one and that one. AndI think that my book can do the
same thing for others. As youread the stuff that was
important to me. I'm hoping thatthe readers will say, yeah,
yeah, that works. Good. But no,no, I don't believe in that. And
I think that is, at least in myprocess. That's how the grief
journey move forward, is that Ipicked up a little bit of
everything from from differentauthors. And at the same time, I
(16:45):
found stuff that I felt wasn'tit wasn't going to work for me
at all. So I want to put allthis together and put it out
there because I thought therewas a need in this this country.
And I didn't think that book hadbeen written yet.
Michelle (16:56):
Well, I loved the book. And I think you did a
great job of explaining thevalue of empathy, especially as
it applies to grief. John, canyou give us an example or two
from your life, about how thischange that occurred in you
cause you to see things in adifferent way, or to respond to
a situation in a manner that youwouldn't have done before.
John (17:16):
I can tell you that I've always I've always seen service
as something that charges mybatteries. And there's one,
there's one chapter in the bookon that. One of the things that
I've been rolling around in mybrain is my ability now to see
the richness of life, especiallyin the United States, we have so
many blessings, living here.
It's not as if I didn't seethose before. But I certainly
(17:39):
didn't see him in the kind ofkind of clarity that I do now.
And so I heard a piece on CNNfrom Sanjay Gupta that I really
resonated with it. He opinedthat, especially American men,
we, the right brain, in many ofus doesn't wake up until we have
a train wreck like this in ourlife until we lose a child or
(17:59):
lose a spouse, or something thatabsolutely terrible, it happens
to us and brings us to ourknees. And all of a sudden, you
can start to see all thetremendous things around you. So
to have the two of thefoundational things that I have
focused on is being in themoment right here, right now you
and I are talking and I and Igreatly enjoy that. And then
(18:20):
seeking gratitude whenever Ican. And when I can put those
two things together, things getbetter. So this whole richness
of life and being able to leanin, if somebody's got something
going on, as opposed to sayingI'll see you later, I gotta go
do something. I listened tothem, I really tried to dial up
my listening skills. And I findthat it really feeds me now that
(18:42):
this is something that I avoidedconsciously in the past, I was
never in management at HPbecause I didn't want to manage
somebody else's problems. And Iwanted to solve problems
associated with disk drives are.
But at this point, I now willstick around and say tell me
more. And and I am hoping that Iam a source or at least a set of
(19:06):
ears, that allows somebody to totell their story, and to get it
out there and feel better aboutit. And I wasn't that guy when
when Pam was alive.
Michelle (19:17):
Very well said, I love the perspective that the old guy
is now gone. But you get todefine what's next. That's a
very positive way to view thingsafter loss. Thanks for sharing
that. Well, in chapter 10 ofyour book, you talk about
expressing grief through poetry.
And you include severalbeautifully written compositions
that truly capture what youcalled your mini epiphanies. And
(19:39):
you also make a statement thatyou're not afraid to die
anymore. Can you shed some lighton chapter 10 for us?
John (19:48):
Okay, let's talk about the poetry first. I was sitting on
my back deck and you know, justtrying to try to deal with
things. And the first one cameto me, I call it my world now
and that that is I'm alwaysstill my favorite one. And I ran
back into my laptop and I bangthat out. And it wasn't bad. It
needed a little bit editing. Andthen there was an interesting
(20:11):
process where I was extremelyunkind to myself who would want
to read this stuff, poetry froman engineer. And then I caught
myself, because what are youdoing? Why are you so hard on
yourself? Why don't you just whydon't you just lean into this
and see what happens next. Soover the course of the next
three or four weeks, I bangedout another 14 or 15 of these
things. And I'm proud of them.
They're unique. I had no ideathey were coming. And I'm glad I
(20:33):
grabbed them when I did, becausethat news left after after poll
number 16, boom, that was like,Okay, you're done with this now.
And maybe it'll come back. Interms of the not being afraid of
death, that that is another oneof these huge blessings. All
right, I had to go toe to toewith the beast in 2012. Pam and
I had the same exact cancer wehad, we had the left base of
(20:55):
tongue cancer that had beenattributed to human papilloma
virus HPV, and we have no ideawhy it expressed itself in us,
we we were a faithful couple, weweren't getting around we were
we were just with each other.
But it it expressed it and bothof us. And you come out
differently after. After goingtoe to toe with the beast, I
(21:19):
name in the book three majorinflection points in my life.
And that's one one is gettingsober, and 2011. One was dealing
with cancer of 2012 2013. Andthe last one was the whole
cancer adventure with Pam, whichultimately resulted in your
death. And so I am not afraid ofdeath. And I'm really glad for
(21:40):
that. But again, I don't believethat is the way that most
Americans look at it. And sothis is a real gift that I
didn't want to receive in thefirst place. Yeah, I'd rather
have him sit next to me rightnow. But there it is. Yeah,
Michelle (21:54):
I get that for sure.
So I found myself reallyrelating to much of what you
wrote in the book. And as Isaid, it's very good. You pose
an interesting question to thereader. At one point in it, you
ask, what might you wish to donow that your old life has gone?
Why didn't you include thatquestion in the book? And why is
it so significant to considerthis after we lose someone we
(22:16):
love?
John (22:18):
All right, this is this, this is a biggie, thank you for
asking. I appreciate it. Soagain, I don't know why things
came up. When they did. I thinkit has to do with those metal
circuit breakers clicking backinto place. But I realized
pretty early on the old John wasgone. This and for four years,
in this battle against cancer, Ihad the same cancer that Pam
(22:39):
had. And I was able to survive.
And she went three rounds. Andthe third round is where it got
the upper hand. In that, in thatbattle, you are dealing with
medical professionals who aretelling you what to do, do this,
do that do this. This is bestpractices. This is how we this
is how we defeat this scourge.
But when when I sat down andstarted to take a look at what
(23:03):
do I do now that big question, Irealized that there was going to
be a lot of one to zero votes inthis household. This was up to
me. And this was a level ofcontrol that was now back in my
hands. But I I got to decide whothis new guy was going to be
there because there was gonna bea new guy. And so choosing
kindness. Firstly, first of allkindness to myself, I was
(23:25):
amazingly unkind to myself, Ithink that might be part of
American culture as well. Andthen realizing how much I got
out of being kind to otherpeople. But all these things
were grabbing control back anddeciding who this new guy was
going to be. These wereempowering. These were things
that I was allowed to decide formyself, they were a big deal,
(23:48):
because it was going to be mylife moving forward. And I'm
glad that I had a level ofclarity that there is no going
back to who I was because thethe person that my true love was
not sitting next to me anymore,it was going to be somebody new.
And who should that person be atthat I hope is one of the things
that resonates with anybody whoreads my book and says, Okay,
(24:09):
this has been awful. But now youget to define what's next. And
the other thing is the otherside of that coin, the negative
side of the coin is I just didnot want to be here taking up
space. All right, there is stillsomething for me to do. There's
a bunch of things for me to do.
And that comes back to Faiththat comes back to service, all
those things, all those thingswork their way into that. But I
wanted my life to be one havepurpose and have impact. And I'm
(24:30):
living that life. Now. I wishPam was here. But that's not the
case. And so in the meantime, Igot things to do. My story is
not yet not yet done. And I hopeto write a couple of very cool
chapters before that day comes.
Michelle (24:47):
Yeah, I have said that so many times. It seems like
we're all so grateful for theepiphanies that we realized in
our grief. But if we could turnback the clock and have them
back right now next to us wouldwe want Want That, of course. So
John, you shared so many greatlessons with us today. You
realize the value of having acounselor to guide you through
(25:09):
your grief in those early days,and to serve as a sounding board
for all the emotional ups anddowns that you go through. You
talked about being mad at Godand then understanding that he
hadn't abandon you. And in fact,he may have been working through
some of your friends, youreached the conclusion that
there is a bigger picture inthis life and that when pain and
suffering happens in our lives,we just have to trust that it
(25:32):
makes sense. You discovered thatalthough your employer valued
and compensated your left brainway of thinking that it wouldn't
serve you well as a widower andyou began to realize and embrace
a new right brain way ofthinking that included empathy
for others. You began writing,blogging and journaling and
reaped therapeutic benefits thatwould also serve as the basis
(25:55):
for your book. You told us thatservice, gratitude and kindness
are great ways to look outsideof ourselves when we're hurting,
and they can help other peoplein their pain. John, what are
some of those great life lessonsyou learned? Following Pam's
death that you can share withsomeone listening right now who
(26:15):
needs help?
John (26:17):
One of the first ones I learned was from Meghan Devine,
in the book that she wrote, It'sokay, you're not okay. And that
is the difference between painand suffering. And with pain,
it's your new companion. Younever wanted pain in your life.
But what her encouragement was,was set out a chair for it, it's
now with you look at it, shine abright light on it, have a
(26:39):
little conversation with it, andget to know it because it's
going to be there the rest ofyour life. And that was
tremendous advice from hersuffering in her in her
definition was not sleepingwell, not eating well, you can
do something about that. Butpain. And I think this is this
is one of the big things thatespecially maybe with American
men, when they're hit withoverwhelming grief or
(27:01):
overwhelming feelings, they seekto avoid it. A lot of times that
involves substance abuse, wholooked let's go to the bar, and
let's drown this thing. But Icame to look at it as I wanted
to be on offense on this, Ididn't want to always be on
defense where a big wave ofgrief would just nail me. And in
terms of my ability toproactively deal with with pain,
(27:23):
which is still evolving, I'mstill not very good at it. This
is one that allows me then tosay I've seen you, I know what
you're like, what are you goingto teach me today? You're
welcome. Here pal sat on a chairfor us that that whole big deal
about proactively dealing withpain, knowing that it's with you
for the rest of your days,putting it in your bones, and
(27:44):
then still trying to find a wayto move forward and a life that
where you're enjoying what youstill have. That was one of the
biggies. We talked about the newguy that I am, I think one of
the most healthy ways to managethat transition, is to tip your
hat to the old guy. I know you Iloved you, I enjoyed you. You're
not here anymore. On we go. Sobeing able to to objectively
(28:09):
deal with your own evolution, Ithink is a is a really good
thing. You're not only definingwhat the new guy is, you're also
honoring who that old guy was.
And I think that it's importantto to take that step and say, I
was it was nice to know you.
Your time has now come to anend. I talked about seeking
gratitude. That's huge. That isa huge one. And there's so many
(28:33):
blessings around us living inthe United States, where we
live, who we know what, whatkind of freedoms we have here.
Those are things that if you canconsciously think of those
things, and then find a way tosay thank you that those things
are in your life, immediatelyput you on more solid ground,
it's part of my theology as partof my overall life approach.
(28:54):
And here's one more for yourlisteners. People are going to
tell you when you're going tomove on, you never move on, you
move forward, you move forward,you put that grief in your
bones. And you You keep learningand you keep your eyes open. So
that you're in in the moment,and you're learning what's going
on. But we never move on. Pamwill be with me the rest of the
days of my life.
Michelle (29:13):
Yeah. So true, or forever changed. John, thank you
so much for all of thesevaluable lessons. I know, you
and Pam had a greatrelationship. And when we talked
before, you shared some reallyfunny stories about how she even
made you laugh in the hospitalwhen things were getting really
rough for her. And I know youmiss those great moments, but
(29:35):
she's still keep that alive inyour family. And he told me a
funny story that had to do withher obituary in the newspaper
that made you crack up even thefirst day is following her
death.
John (29:45):
The day after Pam died. My son was over here and I had
already written an obit for PAM,I said can you please submit
this online to the localnewspaper? And so it was added
maybe about 200 words and Iwanted to run it two Sundays in
a row. And so I'm making thesecalls and all of a sudden I hear
my son Jeff, go, oh, my, wait,wait, what's Oh, he goes, Do you
(30:05):
know how much it's gonna cost?
And I said, I don't know 150 -200 bucks, it was 750 bucks. And
so I was about to hand him myVisa card. And I kind of froze.
And I said, No, we'll do it. Sothat night I was over at his
house and his wife's got apretty wicked sense of humor.
She goes, let's, let's turn thisaround. Let's, let's say that
you had died, John. And Pam wasjust confronted with the fact
(30:26):
that an obituary for you isgoing to cost 750 bucks. I think
she would have written somethinglike John died. Please call Pam
for details. Good one. Firsttime I laughed after she died.
Michelle (30:41):
John, thank you so much. I'm gonna put a link in
the show notes so that peoplecan order your book online like
I did. Very good. Well, at thispoint, I just want to thank you
so much for agreeing to come onthe podcast. It's been great
getting to know you and to hearyour story about Pam,
John (30:56):
I thank you for asking the questions. Michelle. I think
about Sean, I know you gottayou've got a milestone date
coming up. And he's doingsomething important in that big
picture that you and I canunderstand. We're still here. We
our story isn't done yet. We gotsome things to do. And the day
will come when you can go anddance with your son again.
Michelle (31:17):
That's right. Thank you very much, John. So for
those of you listening, I hopeyou were inspired by the lessons
John learned and his loss. Hewas truly transformed from a
logical problem solving leftbrain engineer to a more
emotional, right brained,compassionate Empath, who wants
(31:38):
to slow down, take time withpeople hear their stories,
listen, and be present with themin their pain. We need more of
that in our world today. So likeJohn said, the old guy is gone,
but the new guy gets to definewhat comes next. So it is my
hope that you can honor the lifeof the person you love so
(32:00):
dearly, by living yours with anew purpose. And I know that
when you do, you'll have achance to help someone else
who's hurting with the lessonsyou learned in your loss. Thanks
for listening
Hey everybody and welcome back to Qualified, the
place where incredible peopleshare their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope. I'm Michelle Heaton.
Before we experienced great lossin our life, we were different
people. We of course heardstories about others who had
(00:30):
lost their children, or theirspouses, and the thought of it
made us recoil in fear. We mayhave entertained the thought for
a moment. But if you're like me,you quickly pushed it right out
of your mind. We don't even wantto imagine what that devastation
would feel like, or what itseffect would be on us. And the
thought that something goodcould ever come from losing
(00:53):
someone we'd love dearly, wasthe furthest thing from our
minds. But that was then. Onthe other side of loss, I can
tell you that good does occur.
Beauty does emerge, and pain canreveal purpose. Well, my guest
today is a man who hasexperienced great loss. His
(01:16):
wife, Pam died of cancer in2019. Prior to her passing, he
characterized himself as afull-on type A a engineer and
geek, who's left brain dominatedhis way of thinking at all
times. But now following Pam'sdeath, he underwent a radical
transformation that he calls hisright brain awakening. And he
(01:40):
now defines himself as anauthor, Father, widower,
engineer, and newly mintedempath. I love it. His name is
John Lodal and it's my honor tohave him on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified John.
John (01:57):
Thank you, Michelle. I'm glad to be here. I appreciate
you inviting me.
Michelle (02:00):
Great. Well, John, I've been looking so forward to
this conversation since we firstmet. I read your book, I picked
your brain. And I'm ready tothrow some questions your way.
So can you kick things off bytelling us about your wife, Pam,
and the relationship you tooshared?
John (02:17):
I can do that. Indeed. I met Pam in high school. And I
was amazed that she even noticedme. I'm still grateful for that.
We very quickly I realized this,this was my true love. It was it
was always a very easycompanionship. I loved being in
her presence. This was full lifefor me just to be around Pam.
And soon after we moved out toBoise from Champaign Urbana. I
(02:40):
went to work for HP. And westarted our life. We had no
family around us, we had tofigure out what it was between
us. And we had a lot of sharedadventures here in Idaho, and
also beyond the borders of theUnited States. But it was it was
a relationship that alwaysfulfilled me. It always filled
me up. And I was never reallyinterested in any other woman.
(03:00):
She was the one I wanted. Andthat was always grateful that
she chose me. I'm I'm glad Ididn't take that for granted.
Michelle (03:07):
John, that sounds like a great relationship, and that
you two are made for each other.
So sadly, on October 31 2019,after a courageous battle with
cancer, Pam ultimately passedaway. Can you talk a little
about your immediate reactionand your grief at that time?
John (03:29):
That's a difficult night to remember. Pam and I had been
in hospice for about five weeks,she had fought head and neck
cancer and this was the thirdround and this time but it was
clear that it was getting theupper hand. So I was doing
everything I could to be thebest caregiver I could do. It
was in looking back and at thethe intensity, the focus of
caregiving was kind ofextraordinary. I really hadn't
(03:51):
thought at all about what wasgoing to happen after after that
sad event came to pass. So thatnight, about a quarter to 10 I
came out and found her with nopulse and she was still warm.
I'd been answering the door fortrick or treaters, I've been
washing dishes. And I fuzzed outI now know with some help from
my grief counselor that this wasa reaction that I characterize
(04:13):
as mental circuit breakers and Igo into that in the book and
they all blew open. This is thisis a self preservation thing
that allows us to move forwardamidst overwhelming grief, and I
probably sat next to her bed forabout 20 or 30 minutes before I
figured I should probably callsomeone. And so I called my son
who was in town and I calledhospice. They came over and took
(04:36):
care of the of the nuts andbolts, but it was an
overwhelming thing. And it wasabsolutely brand new territory.
And to tell you the truth, Ican't remember it in great
detail but that particular nightis still pretty fuzzy and that
has to do with all those circuitbreakers in my brain blowing
open. And then I was absolutelyunprepared. I had been so
focused on being the bestcaregiver I could that I had
(04:58):
done no planning no fore thoughtat all about, well, what happens
when she when she dies? There Iwas faced with it.
Michelle (05:06):
Yeah, it must have been so difficult for you. And I
can only imagine how hard itwould be to transition your mind
from being a selfless caregiverto now a grieving husband who
actually needed to be cared for.
So if you would tell us aboutwhat you experienced next with
other people, and what youconcluded about how our society
respond to grieving people
John (05:28):
There was a lot going on.
So I had planned Pam's memorialservice or celebration of life
for five weeks. So I had, I hadall that time to allow people to
make travel plans to come tosouthwest Idaho to say goodbye.
And my phone was really quiet.
And I didn't, I didn't know whatI was doing. I was I was just
kind of stumbling through thedays. But I now realized that
(05:50):
there were a lot of other peoplethat were experiencing
widespread and deep grief, shewas a good friend of many
people, and we were all going tomiss her. But after her memorial
service, that's when I came tothe conclusion, I'm glad I did
that, boy, I'm going to needsome help here. This is this is
something I cannot do on my own,I have no idea what to do next.
And this is going to eat mealive if I don't do something
(06:11):
about it. And that's when Ithat's when I contacted a friend
who put me in touch with mygrief counselor. And this was a
big deal. Because one of thethings that I can share with
your listeners is that griefcounselors are the decoders of
grief. We are not trained inAmerican culture to do anything
about grief when it hits us.
We're like, what are we supposedto do now. And it's not as if
you've ever discussed it aroundthe dinner table or had your
(06:32):
parents mentor you. It's almostalways new territory for for all
of us. So I was overwhelmed. AndI read one of the things I
realized early on is that youknow, the old John is gone.
What's going to happen next whatwhat happened at that point was
that I was alone in the house.
So I hadn't lived by myself forthe better part of 45 years. And
(06:56):
I had to get used to that. But Ialso had Jerry, my grief
counselor who was helping mewith with what looked like minor
and simple instructions orrequests that allowed me to keep
moving forward on this this grimjourney of grief. I do my best
to support both of my children.
My son was living in Boise atthe time my daughter was was in
Illinois, and they had just losttheir mother. So I was doing my
(07:18):
best to make sure that I waslistening to them, I was trying
to support them. My siblingsinitially call they all came out
for the memorial service. I havea sister and a brother. But
after that I didn't hear muchfrom them. And then I'm sure
COVID played a role there aswell as as well as the American
grief illiteracy is what I'llcall it. And I was hearing from
some friends, but it seemed likethis was my real moment of need.
(07:43):
And there wasn't a whole lot oftraffic on my phone. I felt
lonely, I felt I felt invisible.
And I I realized that that wasnot a great place to be I didn't
want to wallow in self pity. AndJerry helped me through a lot of
that. So there was a lot ofgrief that was going on that
everyone was trying to deal withthe fact that Pam was gone. But
(08:05):
there wasn't a lot ofacknowledgment that John might
really need us at this point. Soother than Jerry, I wasn't
hearing from a whole lot ofpeople.
Michelle (08:14):
I'm sorry, you didn't get the support that you need it
back then. And I love the termyou use grief illiteracy,
because like you said, itdoesn't get discussed around the
dinner table. No one teaches ushow to appropriately respond to
Grievers. And in so many cases,they just flee, which feels
awful to us. So I want to pointout that you grew up as a
(08:35):
pastor's kid, and you met Pam atchurch youth camp. So it sounds
like you had a strong faithfoundation in your life from an
early age. Did that faith play arole in your grieving process
and healing? Well,
John (08:48):
there was a number of roles. You know, initially, I
could not have a civilconversation with the Almighty,
there was a lot of screaming andcussing at my walls in terms of
my perception that the Almightyhad taken Pam from me. And this
this was a real stop on my on myprogress. I had to talk to Jerry
about this. So I was extremelyangry that you could have done
(09:10):
something about this. Why didyou have to take her at age 62
When we were just getting usedto being in an empty nest. But
the things got better. So Iasked Jerry explicitly, I said,
I'm stuck. I'm so mad at God, Ican't make progress on anything
else. And so she asked me aquestion. She goes, John, do you
think that God is walking nextto you in this journey of grief?
(09:33):
And at that time? I said no. Andhe's not invited, really don't
want a company on this journey?
And she said, Well, how aboutsome of your friends? Do you
think some of your friends mightbe walking next year? I said,
yeah, there are a couple of themthat are keeping in touch. And
then she leaned forward and shelooked me in the eye. She goes,
Do you think that God might beworking through your friends in
terms of helping your grief?
Like, oh, I hadn't thought ofthat. And that that was enough
(09:56):
to get me moving forward again.
So at that point, I could Speakin a more civil tone and tongue
to the Almighty, and start tofigure out, how do I move toward
acceptance on this. And I wentthrough a program called
GriefShare, which was, which washelpful. But my brother brought
up the story from the Gospel ofJohn Chapter nine. And this is
where the disciples made a blindman on the steps and the temple
(10:18):
in Jerusalem. And one of thedisciples goes, Rabbi was at
this man's father, was it hisown? Was it his own sin that
caused him to be blind, I couldgo, I could kind of see Jesus
dropping his jaw going, No, youdon't get it at all, guys, this
man is blind for the greaterglory of God, you just can't see
the whole picture. It's like,oh, so I figure the Almighty had
(10:39):
a bigger plan for her. And thefact that these words came out
of the son of Gods now, thatalways makes me sit up and
listen a little closer. But thatthat story resonated with me in
terms of, I can't see the bigpicture. But I gotta trust that
that big picture. Makes sense.
So my faith is built around thefact that God knows me by name,
(11:03):
then then I am already forgivenand loved. Regardless of what I
do, what you find out is thatGod is trying to position us to
live the most full life we canthat we cannot earn our way into
heaven. So now, when you thinkabout okay, guys, in my corner,
God knows who I am. And he'salready forgiven me as that
might be the biggest gift thatany of us have ever been given.
(11:26):
If you are confident in that,then all of a sudden, you start
thinking about, well, how can Isay thanks to thank you for
this? Well, it's my service. Andthat has put me on a very solid
foundation, that I'm going to domy best to live my best life,
I'm going to, you know, I'mgoing to listen on Sundays when
a sermon is is preached to meand see what I can learn. But
(11:47):
I'm never going to question thefact that God knows me and loves
me. And I'm just looking forways to find the best way to say
thank you, whether that's a soupkitchen, or whether that's some
project over Boise Sunrise,Rotary, that, to me is an
extremely fulfilling way ofliving your life and saying
thank you to the Almighty, forall the blessings that we have.
(12:08):
So that level of theology, thatlevel of faith is something that
I'm really glad I'm clear on.
There are other things. I'mstill learning and I got it, I
got a long ways to go on my ownfaith journey. But that one, I
got my arms around. And I'm gladI do, because it allows me to
keep my eyes wide open. And Iknow why I'm doing good deeds,
it is not to earn heaven points,it is to say thank you, for
(12:31):
everything that has already beengiven to me. And that feels just
right. So faith has played a bigpart, I am a preacher's kid, I
am in touch with what I believein terms of my relationship with
the Almighty, and how I want tolive this life. And I'm glad but
it took a while to get there.
(12:52):
There was there was some roughdays in between.
Michelle (12:55):
I am so glad to hear that. And I completely
understand the anger at Godemotion that comes up a lot
during these podcastsinterviews. People say why would
a loving God the God that Iserve, do something like this to
me. But it's so interesting thatyou realize what you call the
big picture because that reallytakes a leap of faith to get
there. So that's awesome. Okay,so you ultimately decided to
(13:18):
write a book because of some ofthese new emotions that you were
experiencing. And you call it ARight Brain Awakening - What
Grief Taught a HeartbrokenEngineer. Great title. You said
earlier that you worked atHewlett Packard HP, and that
engineers were highly valued fortheir left brain skills. For
those of us who may notunderstand the concept of right
(13:41):
brain left brain thinking, tellus about it and what this
awakening was about and yournewfound relationship with
empathy.
John (13:49):
Thanks for asking. I was I was seeking to address what I
consider to be a literaryvacuum. I read a bunch of
terrific books after Pam died.
And I've referenced those in anappendix in the book. But none
of those were written from thepoint of view of a left brain
geek like me, I had 32 years atHP. And my problem solving
abilities were what got mecompensation. This is what was
(14:10):
valued by that employer. And Iwas good at it. I enjoyed
solving problems. And I alwayswanted to learn new stuff. So I
fully leaned into my left brain.
The general idea behind leftbrain right brain is that your
left brain folks aremathematically inclined. They're
excellent planners, they'reorganized, whereas your right
(14:32):
brain folks are empathscreatives, you can think of
maybe some musicians or griefcounselors. And what I found was
that, in order to me to makeprogress on this journey, this
path that I never wanted to beon, I really needed to lean into
some of that empathy. And thishappened naturally. As well as
(14:54):
from some of the reading that Iwas doing that I realized that
there's not much going on there.
Right It sat on my brain. Andwithout that, I am not going to
make the kind of progress thatI'm hoping to, in understanding
this train wreck that hadhappened in my life. So as I
said, a friend of mine hadwritten a book. And I had also
done a lot of journaling. AndI've done a lot of online
blogging on on what's calledCaringBridge. This is a site
(15:18):
where we shared a lot of thedetails of Pams laryngectomy, in
2017. And it was for only aspecific audience, you had to be
allowed in. And so I had a lotof great source material in
terms of, you know, what I wasfeeling when I was feeling it.
And what Steve told me was, youknow, John, that might make a
good book. And I had to wait forthe muse to arrive. And it did
(15:39):
in January of 2022. And so Ibanged out about 40,000 words
over the course of about sixweeks, and found an editor and
she said, You got somethinghere, but we got to clean it up.
It was she says it's raw, it's amess. But we think we got good
raw content here. And it could Ireally felt it could serve what
I think is a widespread need inthe United States, in terms of
(16:02):
how do you do grief? How do youHow might someone do this in an
effective manner? And let memake one more point. As I read
all these books, every one ofthem that I read, I found stuff
that I really resonated with.
And I found stuff that I thoughtwas just hogwash. And every
books and so I started cherrypicking I said, I'll take that
(16:23):
one, that one and that one. AndI think that my book can do the
same thing for others. As youread the stuff that was
important to me. I'm hoping thatthe readers will say, yeah,
yeah, that works. Good. But no,no, I don't believe in that. And
I think that is, at least in myprocess. That's how the grief
journey move forward, is that Ipicked up a little bit of
everything from from differentauthors. And at the same time, I
(16:45):
found stuff that I felt wasn'tit wasn't going to work for me
at all. So I want to put allthis together and put it out
there because I thought therewas a need in this this country.
And I didn't think that book hadbeen written yet.
Michelle (16:56):
Well, I loved the book. And I think you did a
great job of explaining thevalue of empathy, especially as
it applies to grief. John, canyou give us an example or two
from your life, about how thischange that occurred in you
cause you to see things in adifferent way, or to respond to
a situation in a manner that youwouldn't have done before.
John (17:16):
I can tell you that I've always I've always seen service
as something that charges mybatteries. And there's one,
there's one chapter in the bookon that. One of the things that
I've been rolling around in mybrain is my ability now to see
the richness of life, especiallyin the United States, we have so
many blessings, living here.
It's not as if I didn't seethose before. But I certainly
(17:39):
didn't see him in the kind ofkind of clarity that I do now.
And so I heard a piece on CNNfrom Sanjay Gupta that I really
resonated with it. He opinedthat, especially American men,
we, the right brain, in many ofus doesn't wake up until we have
a train wreck like this in ourlife until we lose a child or
(17:59):
lose a spouse, or something thatabsolutely terrible, it happens
to us and brings us to ourknees. And all of a sudden, you
can start to see all thetremendous things around you. So
to have the two of thefoundational things that I have
focused on is being in themoment right here, right now you
and I are talking and I and Igreatly enjoy that. And then
(18:20):
seeking gratitude whenever Ican. And when I can put those
two things together, things getbetter. So this whole richness
of life and being able to leanin, if somebody's got something
going on, as opposed to sayingI'll see you later, I gotta go
do something. I listened tothem, I really tried to dial up
my listening skills. And I findthat it really feeds me now that
(18:42):
this is something that I avoidedconsciously in the past, I was
never in management at HPbecause I didn't want to manage
somebody else's problems. And Iwanted to solve problems
associated with disk drives are.
But at this point, I now willstick around and say tell me
more. And and I am hoping that Iam a source or at least a set of
(19:06):
ears, that allows somebody to totell their story, and to get it
out there and feel better aboutit. And I wasn't that guy when
when Pam was alive.
Michelle (19:17):
Very well said, I love the perspective that the old guy
is now gone. But you get todefine what's next. That's a
very positive way to view thingsafter loss. Thanks for sharing
that. Well, in chapter 10 ofyour book, you talk about
expressing grief through poetry.
And you include severalbeautifully written compositions
that truly capture what youcalled your mini epiphanies. And
(19:39):
you also make a statement thatyou're not afraid to die
anymore. Can you shed some lighton chapter 10 for us?
John (19:48):
Okay, let's talk about the poetry first. I was sitting on
my back deck and you know, justtrying to try to deal with
things. And the first one cameto me, I call it my world now
and that that is I'm alwaysstill my favorite one. And I ran
back into my laptop and I bangthat out. And it wasn't bad. It
needed a little bit editing. Andthen there was an interesting
(20:11):
process where I was extremelyunkind to myself who would want
to read this stuff, poetry froman engineer. And then I caught
myself, because what are youdoing? Why are you so hard on
yourself? Why don't you just whydon't you just lean into this
and see what happens next. Soover the course of the next
three or four weeks, I bangedout another 14 or 15 of these
things. And I'm proud of them.
They're unique. I had no ideathey were coming. And I'm glad I
(20:33):
grabbed them when I did, becausethat news left after after poll
number 16, boom, that was like,Okay, you're done with this now.
And maybe it'll come back. Interms of the not being afraid of
death, that that is another oneof these huge blessings. All
right, I had to go toe to toewith the beast in 2012. Pam and
I had the same exact cancer wehad, we had the left base of
(20:55):
tongue cancer that had beenattributed to human papilloma
virus HPV, and we have no ideawhy it expressed itself in us,
we we were a faithful couple, weweren't getting around we were
we were just with each other.
But it it expressed it and bothof us. And you come out
differently after. After goingtoe to toe with the beast, I
(21:19):
name in the book three majorinflection points in my life.
And that's one one is gettingsober, and 2011. One was dealing
with cancer of 2012 2013. Andthe last one was the whole
cancer adventure with Pam, whichultimately resulted in your
death. And so I am not afraid ofdeath. And I'm really glad for
(21:40):
that. But again, I don't believethat is the way that most
Americans look at it. And sothis is a real gift that I
didn't want to receive in thefirst place. Yeah, I'd rather
have him sit next to me rightnow. But there it is. Yeah,
Michelle (21:54):
I get that for sure.
So I found myself reallyrelating to much of what you
wrote in the book. And as Isaid, it's very good. You pose
an interesting question to thereader. At one point in it, you
ask, what might you wish to donow that your old life has gone?
Why didn't you include thatquestion in the book? And why is
it so significant to considerthis after we lose someone we
(22:16):
love?
John (22:18):
All right, this is this, this is a biggie, thank you for
asking. I appreciate it. Soagain, I don't know why things
came up. When they did. I thinkit has to do with those metal
circuit breakers clicking backinto place. But I realized
pretty early on the old John wasgone. This and for four years,
in this battle against cancer, Ihad the same cancer that Pam
(22:39):
had. And I was able to survive.
And she went three rounds. Andthe third round is where it got
the upper hand. In that, in thatbattle, you are dealing with
medical professionals who aretelling you what to do, do this,
do that do this. This is bestpractices. This is how we this
is how we defeat this scourge.
But when when I sat down andstarted to take a look at what
(23:03):
do I do now that big question, Irealized that there was going to
be a lot of one to zero votes inthis household. This was up to
me. And this was a level ofcontrol that was now back in my
hands. But I I got to decide whothis new guy was going to be
there because there was gonna bea new guy. And so choosing
kindness. Firstly, first of allkindness to myself, I was
(23:25):
amazingly unkind to myself, Ithink that might be part of
American culture as well. Andthen realizing how much I got
out of being kind to otherpeople. But all these things
were grabbing control back anddeciding who this new guy was
going to be. These wereempowering. These were things
that I was allowed to decide formyself, they were a big deal,
(23:48):
because it was going to be mylife moving forward. And I'm
glad that I had a level ofclarity that there is no going
back to who I was because thethe person that my true love was
not sitting next to me anymore,it was going to be somebody new.
And who should that person be atthat I hope is one of the things
that resonates with anybody whoreads my book and says, Okay,
(24:09):
this has been awful. But now youget to define what's next. And
the other thing is the otherside of that coin, the negative
side of the coin is I just didnot want to be here taking up
space. All right, there is stillsomething for me to do. There's
a bunch of things for me to do.
And that comes back to Faiththat comes back to service, all
those things, all those thingswork their way into that. But I
wanted my life to be one havepurpose and have impact. And I'm
(24:30):
living that life. Now. I wishPam was here. But that's not the
case. And so in the meantime, Igot things to do. My story is
not yet not yet done. And I hopeto write a couple of very cool
chapters before that day comes.
Michelle (24:47):
Yeah, I have said that so many times. It seems like
we're all so grateful for theepiphanies that we realized in
our grief. But if we could turnback the clock and have them
back right now next to us wouldwe want Want That, of course. So
John, you shared so many greatlessons with us today. You
realize the value of having acounselor to guide you through
(25:09):
your grief in those early days,and to serve as a sounding board
for all the emotional ups anddowns that you go through. You
talked about being mad at Godand then understanding that he
hadn't abandon you. And in fact,he may have been working through
some of your friends, youreached the conclusion that
there is a bigger picture inthis life and that when pain and
suffering happens in our lives,we just have to trust that it
(25:32):
makes sense. You discovered thatalthough your employer valued
and compensated your left brainway of thinking that it wouldn't
serve you well as a widower andyou began to realize and embrace
a new right brain way ofthinking that included empathy
for others. You began writing,blogging and journaling and
reaped therapeutic benefits thatwould also serve as the basis
(25:55):
for your book. You told us thatservice, gratitude and kindness
are great ways to look outsideof ourselves when we're hurting,
and they can help other peoplein their pain. John, what are
some of those great life lessonsyou learned? Following Pam's
death that you can share withsomeone listening right now who
(26:15):
needs help?
John (26:17):
One of the first ones I learned was from Meghan Devine,
in the book that she wrote, It'sokay, you're not okay. And that
is the difference between painand suffering. And with pain,
it's your new companion. Younever wanted pain in your life.
But what her encouragement was,was set out a chair for it, it's
now with you look at it, shine abright light on it, have a
(26:39):
little conversation with it, andget to know it because it's
going to be there the rest ofyour life. And that was
tremendous advice from hersuffering in her in her
definition was not sleepingwell, not eating well, you can
do something about that. Butpain. And I think this is this
is one of the big things thatespecially maybe with American
men, when they're hit withoverwhelming grief or
(27:01):
overwhelming feelings, they seekto avoid it. A lot of times that
involves substance abuse, wholooked let's go to the bar, and
let's drown this thing. But Icame to look at it as I wanted
to be on offense on this, Ididn't want to always be on
defense where a big wave ofgrief would just nail me. And in
terms of my ability toproactively deal with with pain,
(27:23):
which is still evolving, I'mstill not very good at it. This
is one that allows me then tosay I've seen you, I know what
you're like, what are you goingto teach me today? You're
welcome. Here pal sat on a chairfor us that that whole big deal
about proactively dealing withpain, knowing that it's with you
for the rest of your days,putting it in your bones, and
(27:44):
then still trying to find a wayto move forward and a life that
where you're enjoying what youstill have. That was one of the
biggies. We talked about the newguy that I am, I think one of
the most healthy ways to managethat transition, is to tip your
hat to the old guy. I know you Iloved you, I enjoyed you. You're
not here anymore. On we go. Sobeing able to to objectively
(28:09):
deal with your own evolution, Ithink is a is a really good
thing. You're not only definingwhat the new guy is, you're also
honoring who that old guy was.
And I think that it's importantto to take that step and say, I
was it was nice to know you.
Your time has now come to anend. I talked about seeking
gratitude. That's huge. That isa huge one. And there's so many
(28:33):
blessings around us living inthe United States, where we
live, who we know what, whatkind of freedoms we have here.
Those are things that if you canconsciously think of those
things, and then find a way tosay thank you that those things
are in your life, immediatelyput you on more solid ground,
it's part of my theology as partof my overall life approach.
(28:54):
And here's one more for yourlisteners. People are going to
tell you when you're going tomove on, you never move on, you
move forward, you move forward,you put that grief in your
bones. And you You keep learningand you keep your eyes open. So
that you're in in the moment,and you're learning what's going
on. But we never move on. Pamwill be with me the rest of the
days of my life.
Michelle (29:13):
Yeah. So true, or forever changed. John, thank you
so much for all of thesevaluable lessons. I know, you
and Pam had a greatrelationship. And when we talked
before, you shared some reallyfunny stories about how she even
made you laugh in the hospitalwhen things were getting really
rough for her. And I know youmiss those great moments, but
(29:35):
she's still keep that alive inyour family. And he told me a
funny story that had to do withher obituary in the newspaper
that made you crack up even thefirst day is following her
death.
John (29:45):
The day after Pam died. My son was over here and I had
already written an obit for PAM,I said can you please submit
this online to the localnewspaper? And so it was added
maybe about 200 words and Iwanted to run it two Sundays in
a row. And so I'm making thesecalls and all of a sudden I hear
my son Jeff, go, oh, my, wait,wait, what's Oh, he goes, Do you
(30:05):
know how much it's gonna cost?
And I said, I don't know 150 -200 bucks, it was 750 bucks. And
so I was about to hand him myVisa card. And I kind of froze.
And I said, No, we'll do it. Sothat night I was over at his
house and his wife's got apretty wicked sense of humor.
She goes, let's, let's turn thisaround. Let's, let's say that
you had died, John. And Pam wasjust confronted with the fact
(30:26):
that an obituary for you isgoing to cost 750 bucks. I think
she would have written somethinglike John died. Please call Pam
for details. Good one. Firsttime I laughed after she died.
Michelle (30:41):
John, thank you so much. I'm gonna put a link in
the show notes so that peoplecan order your book online like
I did. Very good. Well, at thispoint, I just want to thank you
so much for agreeing to come onthe podcast. It's been great
getting to know you and to hearyour story about Pam,
John (30:56):
I thank you for asking the questions. Michelle. I think
about Sean, I know you gottayou've got a milestone date
coming up. And he's doingsomething important in that big
picture that you and I canunderstand. We're still here. We
our story isn't done yet. We gotsome things to do. And the day
will come when you can go anddance with your son again.
Michelle (31:17):
That's right. Thank you very much, John. So for
those of you listening, I hopeyou were inspired by the lessons
John learned and his loss. Hewas truly transformed from a
logical problem solving leftbrain engineer to a more
emotional, right brained,compassionate Empath, who wants
(31:38):
to slow down, take time withpeople hear their stories,
listen, and be present with themin their pain. We need more of
that in our world today. So likeJohn said, the old guy is gone,
but the new guy gets to definewhat comes next. So it is my
hope that you can honor the lifeof the person you love so
(32:00):
dearly, by living yours with anew purpose. And I know that
when you do, you'll have achance to help someone else
who's hurting with the lessonsyou learned in your loss. Thanks
for listening
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