January 19, 2024 • 42 mins
While away from home on a business trip, Anne-Marie was informed that her husband suffered a brain aneurysm and died in their bedroom. Nothing could have prepared her for the pain and grief she was about to experience and no one seemed equipped to come alongside her emotionally.
Listen in to this inspirational story of how one widow was determined to use her experience to help other grievers -ultimately becoming a grief specialist, 8-time award-winning author on grief, and founder of The Grief & Trauma Healing Network, LLC.
Her website: Grief & Trauma Healing Network
https://griefandtraumahealing.com
Widow Retreat Information:
https://www.griefandtraumahealing.com/widows-grief-retreat/
Her free online grief support site: MyGriefCare.com
https://www.mygriefcare.com
Your Grief Guides YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxXrACWW7qjFlQ1A26onCMQ
Anne-Marie’s 8-time award-winning book “When Their World Stops - The Essential Guide to Truly Helping Anyone in Grief” https://amzn.to/3Sb2T2f
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:10):
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Thinking about death is hard.
Even thinking about it can bedifficult emotionally.
After all, death is the finalgoodbye and when we love someone
(00:35):
, the last thought we want toentertain is that someday
they'll leave us.
But the sad reality is that oneday we will all lose people we
love, and it will be hard and wewill need support.
So if none of us ever thinkabout death or talk about grief,
who then will be equipped tostand beside us in those dark
(00:57):
days?
Well, my guest today is wellacquainted with grief and loss.
In fact, she is a griefspecialist, certified in
critical incident stressdebriefing, a certified trauma
integrative practitioner, aneight-time award-winning author
on grief, founder of the Griefand Trauma Healing Network, a co
-creator of mygriefcarecom, anonline grief support platform.
(01:21):
She works with people worldwideon healing after loss and
offers life-changing widowretreats in Southern California.
She provides crisis griefsupport for businesses, trains
therapists and speaks on griefwherever possible.
She's passionate aboutadvocating for and loving
grievers and being aneducational catalyst to society
(01:45):
on grief and loss.
Her name is Anne- MarieLockmyer, and it's my honor to
have her as my guest on the showtoday.
Anne-Marie (01:52):
Welcome to Qualified Anne- Marie.
Hello Michelle, thank you forhaving me.
Thank you for having me, ofcourse.
Michelle (01:58):
Well, I have to tell you I am so thrilled to have you
on the show because you have awealth of knowledge that you
could share with both grieversand people supporting grievers.
But before we dig into all ofthat, I kind of want to start
with Mark.
If you could just tell us alittle bit about your late
husband, what your relationshipwas like and what occurred back
(02:19):
on May 18, 2013 that would havea lasting impact on your life.
Anne-Marie (02:25):
Thank you.
I met my husband, mark when Iwas 18 years old.
We were together ever since.
That Got married a few yearslater.
He changed my life.
He was the most beautiful, kind, good man.
He introduced me to my faith.
He was my best friend.
We had a really beautiful,beautiful relationship in
(02:48):
marriage.
We had one child together.
Anyway, like any marriage, wehad ups and downs, but the last
year of our marriage was thebest year we ever had.
It was just such a special year.
Things were going so well.
We had so many dreams.
Then I had gone away on a worktrip internationally and I got a
(03:08):
phone call in my hotel room.
I kissed my husband goodbyebefore I left.
He was doing fine.
I got a phone call that saidyou know, anne-marie, mark died.
Mark died.
He had suffered a brainaneurysm in our bedroom and
collapsed.
I don't know how long he wasthere and our son found him.
The world as I knew it changedthat day?
(03:31):
Yes, I'm sure it did Well itsounds like four days before our
26th wedding anniversary.
Oh, I am so sorry.
Michelle (03:41):
Well, Mark sounds like a wonderful man.
How were those early days?
I mean I know you were gone onbusiness.
You had to travel home with theknowledge that your husband had
passed.
That had to be horrific.
And then arriving home andhaving to process that, can you
talk about those emotions?
Anne-Marie (03:58):
Yes, thank you.
I know that everybodyexperiences grief differently.
If we're talking to someone whomay think that's not what it
was like for me, I just want toknow that that's normal.
We all have our own experienceand we don't want to judge each
other's Absolute shock.
First of all, anguish, but fear.
(04:19):
I would say fear was probablyone of the strongest things I
was dealing with.
I'm very embarrassed to saythis, but within five minutes of
knowing he died, I startedthinking Michelle, am I going to
be okay financially?
I know it's.
Do we have enough money?
What am I going to do formedical insurance?
(04:39):
It sounds terrible to me when Isay that.
That's how security is soimportant to me.
On top of all the pain, youjust don't know what's going to
come through your mind lost,can't think as much as it sounds
terrible that I was out of thecountry and I couldn't get home.
I was on a little island, so ittook me a long time and you'd
(05:00):
think that would have been cruel, but in some ways it was very
good, because it just left mealone with my thoughts, as a
matter of fact, on the flight.
So you're on these 12-hourflights and I just listened to
Christian music, by the way, theentire time and that was so
comforting to me and it justgave me some time to think that
I probably wouldn't have hadotherwise.
(05:22):
But I would say just everythingchanges in a moment.
That's like the life as I knewit changed in that second and it
would never be the same.
Michelle (05:36):
Well, thank you for your honesty and sharing those
feelings because, yeah, I canrelate to the way that your
brain goes and I think I evenread in your book you were
saying that you made someawkward jokes even about it.
Yeah, the things that come outof our mouths, right?
Anne-Marie (05:53):
The things that come out of our mouths as we're just
trying to cope andunderstanding that our brains
aren't working properly either,and it's one of the things that
grieving people need tounderstand.
I always tell clients, you know, you're not playing with a full
deck, you're not.
The grief just sucks so much ofyour brain cells out because of
all that you need and thenyou're in an anguish.
(06:15):
That that's.
The other thing I would say isthat I experienced a pain I
never thought was possible thatI did not know.
I mean, you think you feel forpeople when you know they're
hurting and you've hurt.
Of course we've all hurt, but Inever imagined that you could
hurt the way that I hurt andthat it could go so deep within
me to where you don't evennecessarily want to go on and
(06:38):
live Right.
You just lose your zest forlife, and I always say that's
different than wanting to takeyour life.
That's different.
But I would say if a bus hit meon the way home from work, I
was just fine with that.
Michelle (06:53):
Yeah, so be it, so be it.
Anne-Marie (06:54):
That's just like I just don't care about those
things.
Michelle (06:57):
Yeah Well, and I'm glad that you're sharing on that
level because I think it wouldhave helped me years ago to hear
somebody say your brain isn'tworking properly.
Right now those thoughts arenormal, but I didn't have any
resources or people like that totalk to and I thought I was
losing my mind and that feelingof wanting to die.
But then afraid I'm notsuicidal but I just don't have
(07:20):
that zeal for life like youbrought up.
So appreciate that very much.
Making people understand thatis really important, I think.
But you talked about that kindof despair mode that you were in
.
Was there ever a time that youjust felt so hopeless that you
didn't think that you could getpast it?
Anne-Marie (07:38):
That's a great question and absolutely I was
absolutely hopeless.
I couldn't imagine I had myfaith right and I trusted God,
but I just couldn't imagine everbeing okay again.
Does that make sense?
Like?
I just couldn't imagine everbeing okay again.
(07:59):
And I really think it's evenhard when you're newly grieving
to even hear messages of hope.
We're not even ready for the.
Does that make sense?
Like, don't even say it's gonnaget better with time.
Just let us grieve.
Let us grieve and just, and Ialways tell you you don't have
to worry about hoping because Ican help for you, but you don't
(08:20):
even have to worry about that.
We're just gonna take it oneminute at a time.
And you are absolutely rightthat newly grieving people need
this kind of information earlyon.
And it's one of the things Ilove to do with clients is do a
grief orientation, just onesession with somebody who's
newly grieving so that I canhear what happened to them and
(08:41):
walk them through and help themunderstand.
It's normal and this is what Ihear exactly what you said.
Oh my gosh, you mean I'm notlosing my mind, right that these
feelings are normal, or peopletelling them things like but you
have these lovely grandchildrenor you have these lovely things
going on in your life, so youhave to focus on that.
(09:01):
And when I tell them, just soyou know it'd be normal for you
not to enjoy anything in yourlife because your sorrow
completely clouds your vision oranything else.
For a lot of us, right?
So it's not that there aren'tother good things in your life.
So, for instance, someone losesa child and they say but you
(09:22):
have other children or you go.
Well, I'm sorry, that's alltrue and they're lovely, but my
sorrow right now clouds myability to even enjoy those good
things and for them to knowthat that's normal too.
There's nothing wrong with themand it doesn't mean that those
aren't good things.
They're just not in a positionto enjoy them right now.
Michelle (09:43):
Right, right, and I think we kind of expect the
people that care about us, orfriends and family that are
around us, to be there for us,but just expecting that doesn't
qualify them to be grief experts, and so I think there's a lot
of resources available now, waymore than there were when you
and I first, back in 2013, weregrieving so desperately.
(10:04):
But at the same time, where dowe turn?
There's so many resources, so Ithink your book is a good
source, and we'll talk moreabout the widow retreat
eventually.
But let's go back when we weretalking about your emotions.
Let's talk about seeking help.
Were you ever in therapy?
I think you mentioned that youdid get some therapy.
How long, and what was yourgreatest takeaway from that?
Anne-Marie (10:27):
experience?
That's a good question.
Well, I was in therapy beforehe died because our son was
struggling with mental illnessand I needed some help with that
, and so she was already inplace.
So it was good to have that andto be able to go to her right
(10:48):
away.
We already had establishedrelationship.
But what I found through therapy?
Some very interesting things.
It was good to have somebodysafe to talk to, right, because
even though friends and familyand they can be wonderful and
maybe there's people out therethat didn't experience this but
most of the grievers I talked toare a little frustrated and
(11:09):
disappointed with their friendsand family, and not because they
don't mean well or they don'tcare, but it's just so hard for
them to understand and get it,and so we can get very
frustrated and discouraged.
So to have or we may feelthey're judging us right or
they're trying to fix us, so tohave someone that you can just
talk to, for that that was verygood for me, to have that
(11:30):
support and that safe place.
So I do recommend it if youjust wanna talk and have that
safe place.
But the other thing was is Iwasn't getting any better in my
group.
That's what I noticed, and itwas three, and you could see
that I was hurting and I wasstruggling, and she'd say, you
gotta get it out.
And I'd say, okay, I wanna getit out, let's get it out, what's
(11:54):
it and how do I get it out?
And she said, well, you justhave to get it out.
And okay, I want to do that,but you have to tell me how.
And she couldn't.
And she was lovely, by the way,but she didn't specialize in
grief.
And that's what I've learned.
And, as you know, my partner,Ron, and now my new husband,
he's a therapist and he's thefirst to tell you it's not
(12:16):
knocking therapists at all.
They can't know everything.
And he didn't know anythingabout grief and he lost his wife
and his eyes had beencompletely opened.
So what I found is and I hearthis a lot from people after we
work with them is that they'llsay I went to counseling for
years and all I had to do wasthese few things that you're
(12:37):
asking me to do to clear some ofthis stuff.
And I said yes, because thatprocessing is so important.
So I think there's a difference.
So that's one of the things Idiscovered too was that the
grief needed to be processed andI found a very particular way
that's just so effective.
So, even though I wouldrecommend counseling and we even
(12:58):
work with counselors there'ssometimes you need more and not
everybody needs more, right?
Not everybody needs the kind ofhelp that we give and some
people are a little moreresilient, but a lot of people
do.
So I'm not knocking counselingI was glad to have it but I say
some kind of support can bedifferent than actually doing
(13:20):
healing work, right right.
Michelle (13:23):
Some people can really get stuck in their grief, and
then others, the way they'rewired, they're just ready to
move forward.
So, yes, it does depend,doesn't it on the personality it
does.
Anne-Marie (13:33):
And if you're the person stuck and you see people
moving forward, you thinkthere's something wrong with you
.
That's right.
That's right.
So what's wrong with me?
And those people just need somehelp getting unstuck.
Michelle (13:45):
Right.
So in 2018, you actuallypublished a book called when
their World Stops the EssentialGuide to Truly Helping Anyone in
Grief, and I got a copy of it.
I thought it was great, veryhelpful, and I have people in
mind that I wanna share it with.
Your book addresses importanttopics like how to appreciate
what the griever's experiencingand feeling, what to say and do,
(14:09):
how to understand theirspecific type of loss, which is
so important.
And so, since you've beenimmersed in this work for so
many years now, can you tell uswhat you've seen related to
grief?
What are some of the mostcommon things that griever's
experience?
Anne-Marie (14:26):
Well, I think you said this in the beginning
hopelessness right, hopelessnessbeing lost, lost lonely,
especially if they lost theirspouse the loneliness that comes
from that.
The other thing brain fog,which is so important and can
last for such a long time.
But then the other thing that Ithink is so important too is
(14:48):
that around them they may feelpeople just don't understand,
people just don't get it, andit's frustrating to us.
It's actually the reason Iwrote the book.
I thought I can't believe.
You just said that to me.
I know you think you're helping, but you're not.
God bless them.
Michelle.
Those are the things that Isaid to people before I lost my
husband.
I completely own it.
(15:11):
I had to apologize to so manypeople.
I said someone has to write youa little guide or something on
how to help.
I think just understanding howto help other people help you to
lower your expectations ofothers, but also of yourself.
Because, society does not teachus about what to do when we lose
(15:34):
someone.
We've got what Two days'bereavement pay and we're
supposed to bounce back.
So often we are so discouragedwith our lack of progress
because we get the message we'resupposed to be doing better
than we are.
And that's hard and it can bedisturbing.
Michelle (15:55):
Yeah, One of those platitudes I think is I can't
even imagine what you're goingthrough, and I think that I
bring this up in almost everyshow because it was such a big
deal for me.
But when people said I can'timagine what you're going
through, I knew it was true, butit made me feel all the more
isolated because I thought, well, that's true, you can't and you
(16:16):
can't and you can't, so who can?
So that was troublesome for me.
I felt like I definitely neededsomeone who knew what I was
going through or who hadexperienced similar feelings.
And you talk about that in yourbook, which I think is so
important.
As I was reading through yourbio and all this information, I
read a comment.
(16:37):
You said to my surprise, Iwedded a widower seven years
after my husband passed away.
And I was curious why.
You said to my surprise, whywere you surprised by meeting
and marrying Ron?
Anne-Marie (16:52):
I never expected to be married again.
It wasn't even on the horizonfor me.
I was very fortunate to havethe husband that I had and I
couldn't imagine ever findingsomeone like that again.
And I was very, very lonelyafter he died.
And it was interesting thatover time and with active
(17:12):
healing steps and all that, Iwas able to rebuild a life very
different, but that I actuallygot comfortable in being alone
and it changed from lonelinessto being in solitary, but in a
good way For me.
God really fooled a lot ofthose voids.
He was.
I even got a ring that said.
(17:33):
When I eventually took mywedding ring off, I replaced it
with a ring that had engraved onit my son's name, my name and
God, that was my family now andI wore it on my.
I said, okay, so this is myfamily and this is.
Thank you that I had it as niceas I had it and so I'd kind of
created a life and it was.
I was in a really good place.
I had a lot of healing, was ina good shape and I was doing
(17:56):
widow retreats then and someonetold me I had to check out this
gentleman's retreat center andso I went and that is how I met
Ron and he was.
He had just lost his wife,about a year and a half earlier,
to a four year battle withcancer, but we just connected
right away and we had the samehearts for grievers.
So we started working togetherand partnering.
(18:17):
That's how it started,completely as friends, and just
surprisingly led to somethingmore.
He's been my gift and what Icall like a bonus round in my
life that I never expected, andthe neat thing is I can look
back and see how God has usedboth of our experiences and pain
and brought us together nowbecause we are so much more
(18:40):
powerful together as a couplewhen we work with people and
everything we do is together andpartnering.
And it's just.
It's such a joy and such anhonor to do this work.
We love working together and welove helping hurting hearts.
So what could?
It's overwhelming to me thatthis has happened.
I'm so grateful.
Michelle (19:01):
Well, I'm so very happy for you both.
It sounds like your meeting wastruly meant to be, and I'm so
glad to hear that you two aredoing this work together and
using your experiences to helpother hurting people so good.
You talked about the ring.
I think that was reallyinteresting.
Do you have any thoughts thatyou would share with someone
(19:22):
who's a widow listening aboutthe wedding ring?
What are your thoughts onwearing it, taking it off?
I mean, I know it's personal,but what did you go through?
Anne-Marie (19:32):
Well, I'm glad that you said that it's personal,
because what I did wasnecessarily what whatever
everybody else would want to do.
And again, these things,there's no, there's no right or
wrong way to do this.
But what I did is I kept it onfor a year and then after a year
, on the year anniversary of hisdeath, I moved it to my right
(19:52):
hand.
I still wanted to wear it, andthen I put that other ring on
you know that this was my familynow and then after the second
year, I did take it off.
But I know some that never takeit off or wear it around or
they make jewelry with it, andso I still haven't done it.
(20:15):
But my plan is to make abracelet out of it still the
ring, because I'd like to haveit.
But the one thing about all ofthat whether we're talking about
what to do with their thingsright, or what to do with your
ring, or when to start dating oranything like that it's it's.
There's no right or wronganswer and we shouldn't judge
(20:39):
other people for how they chooseto deal with that.
Some people will get rid oftheir things right away.
Some people won't move anything.
Neither's right or wrong.
We have to be so careful abouttelling people and judging you
know that they're not doing itright.
Michelle (20:53):
Yeah, that's such an important point to bring up
because I interview a lot ofdifferent people and they're
giving their perspectives and,like you said, everybody grieves
in different ways and hasdifferent timelines.
For me, it's been more than 10years since I lost my son, Sean,
and people will ask me how Ifeel and there's times when I
still struggle, even after allof this.
(21:15):
This time, you know, andsometimes that's hard to even
admit because people I thinkkind of judge, oh, it's been so
long.
People do have that mentaltimeline that they set for us,
you know.
But anyway, I think it's goodto talk about the fact that
everybody grieves differently.
Anne-Marie (21:32):
I'm glad you brought that up, though, because, of
course, even when you havehealing, you are going to miss
them, right, you're going tomiss them.
And there are also just certaindays where you can have like
grief ambushes right, and theycan happen anytime.
Some days for sure, we knowthey might be, you know,
particularly like if it wastheir birthday or a holiday.
(21:54):
We know that those are going tobe tougher.
I call those like theirtemporary upsurges and grief
days, and we want to have a planfor those days.
It's really important.
But then other ones are.
You know, you're in the, you'rewatching a TV show, something
reminds you, you see theirfavorite food, whatever it is,
and you just break down and cry,and that's that would be
(22:15):
totally normal and not mean thatyou're regressing or you're not
doing well.
It's, it's just part of what wedeal with, and we will always
miss them, and I would say mostpeople expect us to be doing
pretty good after a year.
Yeah, and I had a.
I'm not going to really throwthem under the bus, so I
shouldn't say this, but it was afamily member of me.
(22:36):
Well, I don't understand,ann-rae.
It's been almost a year you knowand I'm you need to get, we
want to get over it and I'mthinking, oh heavens, this is
why I needed community that getsme.
And but you know what, before Ilost my husband, michelle,
that's exactly what I thought,of course, same here.
Michelle (22:57):
Yeah, thank you.
So Anne- Marie, let's talkabout your widow's retreat,
because I thought that was sointeresting.
You say that it was one of yourmost cherished activities out
of all the things that you do.
Tell us a little bit about whathappens at the retreats, but
also how do you measure thesuccess of the retreats.
Anne-Marie (23:17):
Oh, that's a great question and if you could see me
right now, I'm grinning fromear to ear because we love doing
these widow retreats.
They are definitely our sweetspots and we love widows so much
.
We love all gravers, but ofcourse we get this most right.
But what we find is that losinga spouse, and particularly
(23:39):
losing a husband, is a uniqueloss.
There are a lot more secondarylosses.
All losses are bad.
So I'm not saying it's worse,it's just different, right when
you think of all the thingssomeone loses when they lose a
spouse.
So what we've learned throughthe years, through our own
experiences and with workingwith widows, was what can we do
(24:00):
to help them in the least amountof time?
But that can make a hugedifference and these retreats
have evolved over time.
But what we've done, veryspecifically, we only work with
four widows.
That's it because it's got tobe intimate and we want to get
results.
So it's a very safe and sacredspace where they come.
We have a little retreat centerhere and they all get their own
(24:23):
room, their own bathroom.
And they come from all overMichelle it's wonderful Canada,
all over the United States.
We actually it's amazing to mewe don't get a lot of
Californians, but it's just nicebecause it's not too big, so
they're not overwhelmed, and sothey come to this beautiful
space and first of all, they'rewith people who get them.
(24:44):
And that's what's so powerful.
In the beginning they don'teven know each other and they
might even be scared, and within10 minutes they are just
chatting away and they'reletting their guard down because
they're with people whounderstand and they don't have
to pretend and some of theirfavorite things to do are just
say well, I can't.
(25:05):
This person said this to me.
What is your family saying toyou?
Just complaining.
And we also have them bringtheir husbands with them so
they're included in the retreat.
We have them bring pictures oftheir husbands, we talk about
their husbands, and so they havethat community.
And just the time of themtalking with each other when Ron
and I aren't around is healingfor them, which is wonderful.
(25:27):
But then the other thing we dowe pamper them because they need
to be cared for, right, thesewomen.
We work with them one-on-onewith processing Remember, I told
you the importance of actuallyprocessing all the emotions and
get it out.
So we know how to get it out.
Does that make sense?
We know how to discover what itis and how to clear it for you.
(25:50):
It's a really beautiful way.
It goes deep within your heartand it's not what we find when
people are stuck.
Michelle, this is what a lot ofthe widows will say.
They're not choosing to staywhere they are, they just have
no idea how to get out of it orwhat to do.
And when we do the processingand we see what's on their heart
(26:10):
and they're burdened with which.
Some things they already know,but a lot of things they don't.
Until we go there and they canbe wearing things heavy emotions
, regrets and things like thatthat maybe aren't even logical,
but it doesn't matter becauseit's real to them.
So I will tell you, withoutgoing into a lot of detail, what
(26:31):
came out for me, which ifsomeone had told me I wouldn't
have known it and I would havesaid it's not true.
But when I went through theprocess, what came out for me is
I blamed myself for myhusband's death.
So he had a terrible headacheand I knew he did and I should
have made him go to the doctor.
We won't get into the wholething, but the point was it's
(26:53):
not my fault my husband's dead,and I know that you could
logically explain that to me,Michelle, but I needed to
process like it was my fault,because those are very real
feelings to me and just tellingme it's not didn't get rid of
them, going there andacknowledging them, or just even
how could you leave me, right?
I mean, you're mad at someonewho didn't choose to leave you,
(27:16):
but whatever it is, it justbrings all that stuff up and we
can clean the heart out a littlebit so that then they have less
pain.
We want them to remember theirhusbands and widows usually need
permission to get betterbecause we often feel like our
grief honors our husband Rightthat if we were doing better
(27:41):
then it would mean we didn'tlove them, which we again we
know that's not true, but youcan understand.
They need this permission so wecan clear the heart out a little
bit, teach them how to bringtheir husbands with them forward
, but in a different way, soit's not unhealthy at all.
And then we can ask thequestion what's life look like
(28:01):
for you now?
Once they get some freedom withtheir heart and some healing,
then we can figure out what lifewould be like for them.
And until that point it's veryhard because, again, that filter
, it's just.
There's so much there and wekind of describe being a widower
or a widower.
Ron came up with this analogyand it could be with other
(28:23):
losses as well.
So again, please, I don't meanto give too much attention to
this, but it's kind of likegoing to your house, which you
know, where everything is inyour house.
You live there for a long time,but all of a sudden you walk in
and it's pitch black, so youcan't see anything.
Well, that's okay.
Normally you could find yourway around, but now someone's
completely rearranged thefurniture and that's.
(28:48):
And most widows will nod theirhead to that, because that is
what maneuvering their life islike.
There are things that arefamiliar to them but they don't
even know who they are, theydon't feel like they belong,
they lose their sense ofidentity.
They're just and they'restumbling, trying to get through
and just surviving our existingthinking.
(29:11):
They can't be any better and wecan take them to another place
when we can clear this stuff.
And so you had said what's thesign of success?
Yes, it's true.
For us and it happens to eachlady at a different time maybe a
different step, but it is, ohmy gosh.
I feel so much lighter.
(29:32):
I had no idea how much I wascarrying until I actually took
it off.
And they're exhausted, eventhough it's a lovely time.
They're exhausted becausethere's so many emotions that
they're carrying that need to bedealt with.
They just, if you don't dealwith them now and they're not
choosing not to deal with them,they just don't know how to get
(29:54):
out there and then usually readythen to take new steps.
And one of my favorite thingsis when because we have two
aftercare sessions too, so westay connected with them and see
them on Zoom.
But they'll say my friends sayI look different, okay.
Michelle (30:10):
Yeah.
Anne-Marie (30:10):
Of course, that's not not everyone's gonna have a
total transformation, but someladies do, but they usually they
leave with hope and they leavewith lifelong friendships and,
hopefully, a different filter.
So you can see why we love whatwe do, because to be able to do
that in four days and theyusually don't wanna leave.
(30:32):
Oh, and we also do we work withhorses here too, so we do
equine coaching and the horsesare very, very powerful as well.
So it's just I think it's asacred place and to do this
healing work and I call a lot ofwhat we do brutal.
It's hard work, right, it'sbrutal.
Michelle (30:50):
That's good.
Anne-Marie (30:52):
But it's beautiful, it's so important and it is the
it makes all the difference inyour future when we can go there
.
And again, not everybody needsthis kind of care and support.
But there are a lot to do.
Michelle (31:09):
Yeah, well, again, it goes back to the fact that you
have that empathy and compassionbecause of having experience at
yourself, and I love the factthat you shared your actual
experience.
You didn't just say I hadsomething, but you went next
level and you said what it wasthat you felt like it was your
fault that your husband died,and I think not just widows I
(31:31):
lost my son.
You do go through all of thosequestions in your mind Could I
have done something different?
Was this my fault?
All of these things that youcarry around.
So I think it's wonderful thatyou create this place for
like-minded people to come andfeel like they can be vulnerable
with one another.
I think that that's just sobeautiful and the healing
(31:52):
component of it is beautifulBrutiful.
Anne-Marie (31:56):
Brutiful.
They're excited and scared tocome at the same time.
Michelle (32:01):
Well, I was also gonna ask you do you by chance match
them when you get theirapplications?
Anne-Marie (32:07):
That's a good question.
No, well, we screen everybody,so you can't just sign up.
So they have to have aninterview with me, and that's
because it's a very specialcandidate, right?
And we wanna make sure thatit's going to work for them.
If it's not, that's not goodfor them and it's not good for
us either.
So sometimes people won't beready, it's too soon, and we'll
(32:30):
tell them.
You know, and I talk to them,it's too soon, you're not ready
for this work yet.
You won't get the results.
Or some people don't wanna dothe work Sometimes when you say,
look, there's gonna be somework involved so we can screen
it, and the ladies always knowif it's right for them.
So when I talked to them I saidthis isn't about getting you to
this retreat.
We're talking to see if it'seven a good fit for you and if
(32:51):
it's not, then let's see whatelse might be able to be done
and maybe I could recommend it.
So they always know.
But, Michelle, I have to tellyou so once I know they're a
good candidate, I don't worryabout who goes with who, because
they always connect.
Always Different ages,different types of death, they
(33:12):
always connect and they becomesisters.
It's so special and I justbelieve God's hand.
You know, this isn't a Christianretreat.
We are Christians, buteverybody needs this help and if
someone wants to bring theirfaith into it, we love to do
that.
So, and of course, ron and Iare praying about all of this
all the time anyway, whetherpeople are believers or not, but
(33:34):
we just this is such a giftfrom God to be able to do this
work and to share these hearts,and we just believe that this is
why God's allowing us to dothis, like we need to help these
women, and it's the greatestjoy to do it, to just see them
smile and laugh.
Some of them haven't laughed,and we have one night where I
(33:56):
play games with them.
I said we are gonna play a gameand you just hear them laughing
and they haven't laughed.
Michelle (34:03):
They have permission to laugh.
Anne-Marie (34:05):
Permission and you know we give them.
We have a whole permission listfor them about the permissions
that we're giving them.
Michelle (34:12):
So you understand that I get it, I get it.
Anne-Marie (34:15):
They are so hard on themselves and we are so hard on
ourselves and we feel like wehave to pretend we're okay when
we're not.
So you can see why this is areally sacred space.
I wish we could have them evenlonger, and we tend to become a
family.
It's very hard to let them go,and they always send us updates
for years after, which we love.
Michelle (34:35):
That's great, yeah, and I'm glad that you pointed
out that it's not exclusive.
It's on a faith-based communitythat it's welcomed, but it's
not part of the criteria.
So, Anne- Marie, this has beenso great.
Thank you for your wisdom andinsights.
You shared so many good pointsabout grief and loss.
You made it clear that everyoneexperiences grief differently,
(34:58):
so we should never put our ownexpectations on others.
Just walk beside them and letthem grieve.
You told us you experiencedshock, fear, a very deep level
of pain, brain fog, a lack ofzest for living and even a loss
of security when your husbanddied, and you want listeners to
(35:20):
know that all those emotions arenormal and to be expected
following the loss of a lovedone.
You explained that grieverswill initially have a difficult
time with hope, and the thingsthat others say about enjoying
what you have are hard to hearat this time, because sorrow
tends to cloud your ability toenjoy the good things.
For a time, you said youengaged in therapy, in that you
(35:43):
enjoyed the safe space to shareyour thoughts, and you
highlighted the importance ofseeking a therapist who
specializes in grief at thisimportant time in your life.
And, marie, what other lessonshave you learned having been
through all of this, can youshare with someone listening who
needs hope right now?
Anne-Marie (36:02):
I hope that some of the things that I will say will
help, and I hope that some ofthe things that I say won't
frustrate or anger them becausethey're not there.
So sometimes, when I would saya message of hope, that can
anger some people if it's earlyon in their grief, right,
because they can't imagine it.
So please just know when I saythat, I say it with a lot of
(36:23):
sensitivity, but I know whatit's like to ache beyond belief
and to have a pain that'sunimaginable, and I know what
it's like to want to die and notgo on.
But I'm living proof.
This is what I tell people.
You know that I didn't havehope, but I am living proof that
you can get through this, thatthere is another side, that
(36:47):
there is hope, that in time okay, and there's no way around it
in time and with active, healthy, grieving steps, life can be
good again.
And you can be good again.
Even though life is different,all right, and you are different
it can still be good.
And so I just want to leavethat message.
(37:08):
But we might have to dosomething, we might need that
extra care right to get thereand healing.
Healing and getting better isnot about forgetting your loved
one.
It is absolutely aboutremembering them and remembering
them well, but without the samepain.
Being in excruciating pain isdifferent than missing them.
(37:30):
Right that we have the missing.
So that that's true.
We have to, and I've learned,you have to be gracious to
yourself when you're grievingand you have to be gracious to
those around you.
Lower your expectations of whatyou can do and lower your
expectations of those around you, because they just won't get it
(37:52):
.
I learned that.
I learned the importance ofconnecting with a community that
understands.
So to be with other widows, tobe with other grievers and I
host a widow's tea once a monthand I'm telling you those ladies
they've been coming, they loveeach other once a month and
they've all different yearsafter their losses.
(38:12):
But and we don't evennecessarily talk about our
widowhood, but that connectionis just so special.
And so sometimes maybe youcan't find a community, but you
could even create a community.
Society doesn't know aboutgrief and we usually don't know
about it either.
So you know, we know how to getthings, but we don't know what
(38:36):
to do when we lose things.
So when we can recognize thatwe aren't equipped, usually
there's freedom in that to knowthat, okay, I do need some help.
Just like with a physicalinjury, I need help with this
emotional injury.
The other thing is and I knowthis is going to be hard for
people to hear is that becauseof that deep, deep pit that
(38:59):
opened inside me full of pain, Idid believe one day and I
didn't right away believe thisthat maybe one day it would be
filled with something else.
And I can tell you now thatthat deep place that was opened
up in me because of my pain isnow filled with joy.
So I know joy to a deeper levelthan I ever would have had had
(39:23):
I not had this pain.
And I know for those aching,you want to probably swear at me
right now, and I have hadpeople swear at me and you go
for it.
You should, because that's whatI, that's what I would do too.
But I've experienced it.
I know it to be true that intime you can grow because of
your grief.
And my husband and I, Ron, wouldsay we are both better versions
(39:46):
of ourselves because of ourpain.
And but I have to say that doescoincide with my faith right, it
really does that there is ahope in God, that we can trust
him with our pain, if, if wewill.
And God did not take away mypain, but he held me in it.
(40:07):
So I said he was a great pitpartner.
I was in the pit and he I'mlike, take me out.
And he didn't take me out, buthe held me and he held me and I
just trusted him.
But I fought with him a lot andI told him this is too much, I
can't take it, I'm going to die.
But now here I am, okay, fastforward, and I have such joy now
(40:30):
.
I can think of my husband nowand smile and I would never
wanted it to happen, but I cansee all the growth and good that
has come from it and that iswhat God can do.
Right, that is what God can do.
So I want to leave with amessage of hope.
I hope that wasn't too much.
Michelle (40:51):
Yeah, thank you, Anne- Marie.
I think I've said those wordsin some way shape or form so
many times that, yes, we wouldnever ask for anything like this
to happen in a million years,and if we could have them back,
yes, we'd want them back.
But the good that can come fromit, that God can use these
terrible circumstances for good,it's amazing, and what you're
(41:12):
doing to help other people nowis so important.
So good did come of it.
I will put a link to yourwebsite in the show notes so
that listeners can learn moreabout the widows retreat and
everything else that you offer,but at this time, I just want to
say thank you so much foragreeing to be my guest today.
I really appreciate it.
Anne-Marie (41:30):
Oh, thank you.
It was a joy to have thisconversation and thank you for
what you do.
This talking about grief is soimportant, and thank you for
using your pain and yourcircumstances to help others too
.
Thank you, Anne-Marie.
Michelle (41:45):
So for those of you listening, it's my hope that you
heard something and all thatAnne- Marie had to share that
provided hope or comfort in yourtime of grief, and I completely
agree with what she said, thatif someone would have told me
early on that good would havecome from my son's death, I
would have wanted to swear atthem too, but like Anne- Marie,
(42:07):
I am also proof that good caneventually come in time.
It's so hard right now, Ireally know.
But hang in there, my friend,and for now, be kind to yourself
.
Surround yourself with peoplewho love you and who get you,
and don't leave God out of theequation.
(42:27):
He is truly the source of allhope and He'll walk beside you
at this time.
The Bible says in Psalms,chapter 34, verse 18, that He's
near to the brokenhearted.
Let that permeate your mind andyour soul today.
Thanks for listening.
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Thinking about death is hard.
Even thinking about it can bedifficult emotionally.
After all, death is the finalgoodbye and when we love someone
(00:35):
, the last thought we want toentertain is that someday
they'll leave us.
But the sad reality is that oneday we will all lose people we
love, and it will be hard and wewill need support.
So if none of us ever thinkabout death or talk about grief,
who then will be equipped tostand beside us in those dark
(00:57):
days?
Well, my guest today is wellacquainted with grief and loss.
In fact, she is a griefspecialist, certified in
critical incident stressdebriefing, a certified trauma
integrative practitioner, aneight-time award-winning author
on grief, founder of the Griefand Trauma Healing Network, a co
-creator of mygriefcarecom, anonline grief support platform.
(01:21):
She works with people worldwideon healing after loss and
offers life-changing widowretreats in Southern California.
She provides crisis griefsupport for businesses, trains
therapists and speaks on griefwherever possible.
She's passionate aboutadvocating for and loving
grievers and being aneducational catalyst to society
(01:45):
on grief and loss.
Her name is Anne- MarieLockmyer, and it's my honor to
have her as my guest on the showtoday.
Anne-Marie (01:52):
Welcome to Qualified Anne- Marie.
Hello Michelle, thank you forhaving me.
Thank you for having me, ofcourse.
Michelle (01:58):
Well, I have to tell you I am so thrilled to have you
on the show because you have awealth of knowledge that you
could share with both grieversand people supporting grievers.
But before we dig into all ofthat, I kind of want to start
with Mark.
If you could just tell us alittle bit about your late
husband, what your relationshipwas like and what occurred back
(02:19):
on May 18, 2013 that would havea lasting impact on your life.
Anne-Marie (02:25):
Thank you.
I met my husband, mark when Iwas 18 years old.
We were together ever since.
That Got married a few yearslater.
He changed my life.
He was the most beautiful, kind, good man.
He introduced me to my faith.
He was my best friend.
We had a really beautiful,beautiful relationship in
(02:48):
marriage.
We had one child together.
Anyway, like any marriage, wehad ups and downs, but the last
year of our marriage was thebest year we ever had.
It was just such a special year.
Things were going so well.
We had so many dreams.
Then I had gone away on a worktrip internationally and I got a
(03:08):
phone call in my hotel room.
I kissed my husband goodbyebefore I left.
He was doing fine.
I got a phone call that saidyou know, anne-marie, mark died.
Mark died.
He had suffered a brainaneurysm in our bedroom and
collapsed.
I don't know how long he wasthere and our son found him.
The world as I knew it changedthat day?
(03:31):
Yes, I'm sure it did Well itsounds like four days before our
26th wedding anniversary.
Oh, I am so sorry.
Michelle (03:41):
Well, Mark sounds like a wonderful man.
How were those early days?
I mean I know you were gone onbusiness.
You had to travel home with theknowledge that your husband had
passed.
That had to be horrific.
And then arriving home andhaving to process that, can you
talk about those emotions?
Anne-Marie (03:58):
Yes, thank you.
I know that everybodyexperiences grief differently.
If we're talking to someone whomay think that's not what it
was like for me, I just want toknow that that's normal.
We all have our own experienceand we don't want to judge each
other's Absolute shock.
First of all, anguish, but fear.
(04:19):
I would say fear was probablyone of the strongest things I
was dealing with.
I'm very embarrassed to saythis, but within five minutes of
knowing he died, I startedthinking Michelle, am I going to
be okay financially?
I know it's.
Do we have enough money?
What am I going to do formedical insurance?
(04:39):
It sounds terrible to me when Isay that.
That's how security is soimportant to me.
On top of all the pain, youjust don't know what's going to
come through your mind lost,can't think as much as it sounds
terrible that I was out of thecountry and I couldn't get home.
I was on a little island, so ittook me a long time and you'd
(05:00):
think that would have been cruel, but in some ways it was very
good, because it just left mealone with my thoughts, as a
matter of fact, on the flight.
So you're on these 12-hourflights and I just listened to
Christian music, by the way, theentire time and that was so
comforting to me and it justgave me some time to think that
I probably wouldn't have hadotherwise.
(05:22):
But I would say just everythingchanges in a moment.
That's like the life as I knewit changed in that second and it
would never be the same.
Michelle (05:36):
Well, thank you for your honesty and sharing those
feelings because, yeah, I canrelate to the way that your
brain goes and I think I evenread in your book you were
saying that you made someawkward jokes even about it.
Yeah, the things that come outof our mouths, right?
Anne-Marie (05:53):
The things that come out of our mouths as we're just
trying to cope andunderstanding that our brains
aren't working properly either,and it's one of the things that
grieving people need tounderstand.
I always tell clients, you know, you're not playing with a full
deck, you're not.
The grief just sucks so much ofyour brain cells out because of
all that you need and thenyou're in an anguish.
(06:15):
That that's.
The other thing I would say isthat I experienced a pain I
never thought was possible thatI did not know.
I mean, you think you feel forpeople when you know they're
hurting and you've hurt.
Of course we've all hurt, but Inever imagined that you could
hurt the way that I hurt andthat it could go so deep within
me to where you don't evennecessarily want to go on and
(06:38):
live Right.
You just lose your zest forlife, and I always say that's
different than wanting to takeyour life.
That's different.
But I would say if a bus hit meon the way home from work, I
was just fine with that.
Michelle (06:53):
Yeah, so be it, so be it.
Anne-Marie (06:54):
That's just like I just don't care about those
things.
Michelle (06:57):
Yeah Well, and I'm glad that you're sharing on that
level because I think it wouldhave helped me years ago to hear
somebody say your brain isn'tworking properly.
Right now those thoughts arenormal, but I didn't have any
resources or people like that totalk to and I thought I was
losing my mind and that feelingof wanting to die.
But then afraid I'm notsuicidal but I just don't have
(07:20):
that zeal for life like youbrought up.
So appreciate that very much.
Making people understand thatis really important, I think.
But you talked about that kindof despair mode that you were in
.
Was there ever a time that youjust felt so hopeless that you
didn't think that you could getpast it?
Anne-Marie (07:38):
That's a great question and absolutely I was
absolutely hopeless.
I couldn't imagine I had myfaith right and I trusted God,
but I just couldn't imagine everbeing okay again.
Does that make sense?
Like?
I just couldn't imagine everbeing okay again.
(07:59):
And I really think it's evenhard when you're newly grieving
to even hear messages of hope.
We're not even ready for the.
Does that make sense?
Like, don't even say it's gonnaget better with time.
Just let us grieve.
Let us grieve and just, and Ialways tell you you don't have
to worry about hoping because Ican help for you, but you don't
(08:20):
even have to worry about that.
We're just gonna take it oneminute at a time.
And you are absolutely rightthat newly grieving people need
this kind of information earlyon.
And it's one of the things Ilove to do with clients is do a
grief orientation, just onesession with somebody who's
newly grieving so that I canhear what happened to them and
(08:41):
walk them through and help themunderstand.
It's normal and this is what Ihear exactly what you said.
Oh my gosh, you mean I'm notlosing my mind, right that these
feelings are normal, or peopletelling them things like but you
have these lovely grandchildrenor you have these lovely things
going on in your life, so youhave to focus on that.
(09:01):
And when I tell them, just soyou know it'd be normal for you
not to enjoy anything in yourlife because your sorrow
completely clouds your vision oranything else.
For a lot of us, right?
So it's not that there aren'tother good things in your life.
So, for instance, someone losesa child and they say but you
(09:22):
have other children or you go.
Well, I'm sorry, that's alltrue and they're lovely, but my
sorrow right now clouds myability to even enjoy those good
things and for them to knowthat that's normal too.
There's nothing wrong with themand it doesn't mean that those
aren't good things.
They're just not in a positionto enjoy them right now.
Michelle (09:43):
Right, right, and I think we kind of expect the
people that care about us, orfriends and family that are
around us, to be there for us,but just expecting that doesn't
qualify them to be grief experts, and so I think there's a lot
of resources available now, waymore than there were when you
and I first, back in 2013, weregrieving so desperately.
(10:04):
But at the same time, where dowe turn?
There's so many resources, so Ithink your book is a good
source, and we'll talk moreabout the widow retreat
eventually.
But let's go back when we weretalking about your emotions.
Let's talk about seeking help.
Were you ever in therapy?
I think you mentioned that youdid get some therapy.
How long, and what was yourgreatest takeaway from that?
Anne-Marie (10:27):
experience?
That's a good question.
Well, I was in therapy beforehe died because our son was
struggling with mental illnessand I needed some help with that
, and so she was already inplace.
So it was good to have that andto be able to go to her right
(10:48):
away.
We already had establishedrelationship.
But what I found through therapy?
Some very interesting things.
It was good to have somebodysafe to talk to, right, because
even though friends and familyand they can be wonderful and
maybe there's people out therethat didn't experience this but
most of the grievers I talked toare a little frustrated and
(11:09):
disappointed with their friendsand family, and not because they
don't mean well or they don'tcare, but it's just so hard for
them to understand and get it,and so we can get very
frustrated and discouraged.
So to have or we may feelthey're judging us right or
they're trying to fix us, so tohave someone that you can just
talk to, for that that was verygood for me, to have that
(11:30):
support and that safe place.
So I do recommend it if youjust wanna talk and have that
safe place.
But the other thing was is Iwasn't getting any better in my
group.
That's what I noticed, and itwas three, and you could see
that I was hurting and I wasstruggling, and she'd say, you
gotta get it out.
And I'd say, okay, I wanna getit out, let's get it out, what's
(11:54):
it and how do I get it out?
And she said, well, you justhave to get it out.
And okay, I want to do that,but you have to tell me how.
And she couldn't.
And she was lovely, by the way,but she didn't specialize in
grief.
And that's what I've learned.
And, as you know, my partner,Ron, and now my new husband,
he's a therapist and he's thefirst to tell you it's not
(12:16):
knocking therapists at all.
They can't know everything.
And he didn't know anythingabout grief and he lost his wife
and his eyes had beencompletely opened.
So what I found is and I hearthis a lot from people after we
work with them is that they'llsay I went to counseling for
years and all I had to do wasthese few things that you're
(12:37):
asking me to do to clear some ofthis stuff.
And I said yes, because thatprocessing is so important.
So I think there's a difference.
So that's one of the things Idiscovered too was that the
grief needed to be processed andI found a very particular way
that's just so effective.
So, even though I wouldrecommend counseling and we even
(12:58):
work with counselors there'ssometimes you need more and not
everybody needs more, right?
Not everybody needs the kind ofhelp that we give and some
people are a little moreresilient, but a lot of people
do.
So I'm not knocking counselingI was glad to have it but I say
some kind of support can bedifferent than actually doing
(13:20):
healing work, right right.
Michelle (13:23):
Some people can really get stuck in their grief, and
then others, the way they'rewired, they're just ready to
move forward.
So, yes, it does depend,doesn't it on the personality it
does.
Anne-Marie (13:33):
And if you're the person stuck and you see people
moving forward, you thinkthere's something wrong with you
.
That's right.
That's right.
So what's wrong with me?
And those people just need somehelp getting unstuck.
Michelle (13:45):
Right.
So in 2018, you actuallypublished a book called when
their World Stops the EssentialGuide to Truly Helping Anyone in
Grief, and I got a copy of it.
I thought it was great, veryhelpful, and I have people in
mind that I wanna share it with.
Your book addresses importanttopics like how to appreciate
what the griever's experiencingand feeling, what to say and do,
(14:09):
how to understand theirspecific type of loss, which is
so important.
And so, since you've beenimmersed in this work for so
many years now, can you tell uswhat you've seen related to
grief?
What are some of the mostcommon things that griever's
experience?
Anne-Marie (14:26):
Well, I think you said this in the beginning
hopelessness right, hopelessnessbeing lost, lost lonely,
especially if they lost theirspouse the loneliness that comes
from that.
The other thing brain fog,which is so important and can
last for such a long time.
But then the other thing that Ithink is so important too is
(14:48):
that around them they may feelpeople just don't understand,
people just don't get it, andit's frustrating to us.
It's actually the reason Iwrote the book.
I thought I can't believe.
You just said that to me.
I know you think you're helping, but you're not.
God bless them.
Michelle.
Those are the things that Isaid to people before I lost my
husband.
I completely own it.
(15:11):
I had to apologize to so manypeople.
I said someone has to write youa little guide or something on
how to help.
I think just understanding howto help other people help you to
lower your expectations ofothers, but also of yourself.
Because, society does not teachus about what to do when we lose
(15:34):
someone.
We've got what Two days'bereavement pay and we're
supposed to bounce back.
So often we are so discouragedwith our lack of progress
because we get the message we'resupposed to be doing better
than we are.
And that's hard and it can bedisturbing.
Michelle (15:55):
Yeah, One of those platitudes I think is I can't
even imagine what you're goingthrough, and I think that I
bring this up in almost everyshow because it was such a big
deal for me.
But when people said I can'timagine what you're going
through, I knew it was true, butit made me feel all the more
isolated because I thought, well, that's true, you can't and you
(16:16):
can't and you can't, so who can?
So that was troublesome for me.
I felt like I definitely neededsomeone who knew what I was
going through or who hadexperienced similar feelings.
And you talk about that in yourbook, which I think is so
important.
As I was reading through yourbio and all this information, I
read a comment.
(16:37):
You said to my surprise, Iwedded a widower seven years
after my husband passed away.
And I was curious why.
You said to my surprise, whywere you surprised by meeting
and marrying Ron?
Anne-Marie (16:52):
I never expected to be married again.
It wasn't even on the horizonfor me.
I was very fortunate to havethe husband that I had and I
couldn't imagine ever findingsomeone like that again.
And I was very, very lonelyafter he died.
And it was interesting thatover time and with active
(17:12):
healing steps and all that, Iwas able to rebuild a life very
different, but that I actuallygot comfortable in being alone
and it changed from lonelinessto being in solitary, but in a
good way For me.
God really fooled a lot ofthose voids.
He was.
I even got a ring that said.
(17:33):
When I eventually took mywedding ring off, I replaced it
with a ring that had engraved onit my son's name, my name and
God, that was my family now andI wore it on my.
I said, okay, so this is myfamily and this is.
Thank you that I had it as niceas I had it and so I'd kind of
created a life and it was.
I was in a really good place.
I had a lot of healing, was ina good shape and I was doing
(17:56):
widow retreats then and someonetold me I had to check out this
gentleman's retreat center andso I went and that is how I met
Ron and he was.
He had just lost his wife,about a year and a half earlier,
to a four year battle withcancer, but we just connected
right away and we had the samehearts for grievers.
So we started working togetherand partnering.
(18:17):
That's how it started,completely as friends, and just
surprisingly led to somethingmore.
He's been my gift and what Icall like a bonus round in my
life that I never expected, andthe neat thing is I can look
back and see how God has usedboth of our experiences and pain
and brought us together nowbecause we are so much more
(18:40):
powerful together as a couplewhen we work with people and
everything we do is together andpartnering.
And it's just.
It's such a joy and such anhonor to do this work.
We love working together and welove helping hurting hearts.
So what could?
It's overwhelming to me thatthis has happened.
I'm so grateful.
Michelle (19:01):
Well, I'm so very happy for you both.
It sounds like your meeting wastruly meant to be, and I'm so
glad to hear that you two aredoing this work together and
using your experiences to helpother hurting people so good.
You talked about the ring.
I think that was reallyinteresting.
Do you have any thoughts thatyou would share with someone
(19:22):
who's a widow listening aboutthe wedding ring?
What are your thoughts onwearing it, taking it off?
I mean, I know it's personal,but what did you go through?
Anne-Marie (19:32):
Well, I'm glad that you said that it's personal,
because what I did wasnecessarily what whatever
everybody else would want to do.
And again, these things,there's no, there's no right or
wrong way to do this.
But what I did is I kept it onfor a year and then after a year
, on the year anniversary of hisdeath, I moved it to my right
(19:52):
hand.
I still wanted to wear it, andthen I put that other ring on
you know that this was my familynow and then after the second
year, I did take it off.
But I know some that never takeit off or wear it around or
they make jewelry with it, andso I still haven't done it.
(20:15):
But my plan is to make abracelet out of it still the
ring, because I'd like to haveit.
But the one thing about all ofthat whether we're talking about
what to do with their thingsright, or what to do with your
ring, or when to start dating oranything like that it's it's.
There's no right or wronganswer and we shouldn't judge
(20:39):
other people for how they chooseto deal with that.
Some people will get rid oftheir things right away.
Some people won't move anything.
Neither's right or wrong.
We have to be so careful abouttelling people and judging you
know that they're not doing itright.
Michelle (20:53):
Yeah, that's such an important point to bring up
because I interview a lot ofdifferent people and they're
giving their perspectives and,like you said, everybody grieves
in different ways and hasdifferent timelines.
For me, it's been more than 10years since I lost my son, Sean,
and people will ask me how Ifeel and there's times when I
still struggle, even after allof this.
(21:15):
This time, you know, andsometimes that's hard to even
admit because people I thinkkind of judge, oh, it's been so
long.
People do have that mentaltimeline that they set for us,
you know.
But anyway, I think it's goodto talk about the fact that
everybody grieves differently.
Anne-Marie (21:32):
I'm glad you brought that up, though, because, of
course, even when you havehealing, you are going to miss
them, right, you're going tomiss them.
And there are also just certaindays where you can have like
grief ambushes right, and theycan happen anytime.
Some days for sure, we knowthey might be, you know,
particularly like if it wastheir birthday or a holiday.
(21:54):
We know that those are going tobe tougher.
I call those like theirtemporary upsurges and grief
days, and we want to have a planfor those days.
It's really important.
But then other ones are.
You know, you're in the, you'rewatching a TV show, something
reminds you, you see theirfavorite food, whatever it is,
and you just break down and cry,and that's that would be
(22:15):
totally normal and not mean thatyou're regressing or you're not
doing well.
It's, it's just part of what wedeal with, and we will always
miss them, and I would say mostpeople expect us to be doing
pretty good after a year.
Yeah, and I had a.
I'm not going to really throwthem under the bus, so I
shouldn't say this, but it was afamily member of me.
(22:36):
Well, I don't understand,ann-rae.
It's been almost a year you knowand I'm you need to get, we
want to get over it and I'mthinking, oh heavens, this is
why I needed community that getsme.
And but you know what, before Ilost my husband, michelle,
that's exactly what I thought,of course, same here.
Michelle (22:57):
Yeah, thank you.
So Anne- Marie, let's talkabout your widow's retreat,
because I thought that was sointeresting.
You say that it was one of yourmost cherished activities out
of all the things that you do.
Tell us a little bit about whathappens at the retreats, but
also how do you measure thesuccess of the retreats.
Anne-Marie (23:17):
Oh, that's a great question and if you could see me
right now, I'm grinning fromear to ear because we love doing
these widow retreats.
They are definitely our sweetspots and we love widows so much
.
We love all gravers, but ofcourse we get this most right.
But what we find is that losinga spouse, and particularly
(23:39):
losing a husband, is a uniqueloss.
There are a lot more secondarylosses.
All losses are bad.
So I'm not saying it's worse,it's just different, right when
you think of all the thingssomeone loses when they lose a
spouse.
So what we've learned throughthe years, through our own
experiences and with workingwith widows, was what can we do
(24:00):
to help them in the least amountof time?
But that can make a hugedifference and these retreats
have evolved over time.
But what we've done, veryspecifically, we only work with
four widows.
That's it because it's got tobe intimate and we want to get
results.
So it's a very safe and sacredspace where they come.
We have a little retreat centerhere and they all get their own
(24:23):
room, their own bathroom.
And they come from all overMichelle it's wonderful Canada,
all over the United States.
We actually it's amazing to mewe don't get a lot of
Californians, but it's just nicebecause it's not too big, so
they're not overwhelmed, and sothey come to this beautiful
space and first of all, they'rewith people who get them.
(24:44):
And that's what's so powerful.
In the beginning they don'teven know each other and they
might even be scared, and within10 minutes they are just
chatting away and they'reletting their guard down because
they're with people whounderstand and they don't have
to pretend and some of theirfavorite things to do are just
say well, I can't.
(25:05):
This person said this to me.
What is your family saying toyou?
Just complaining.
And we also have them bringtheir husbands with them so
they're included in the retreat.
We have them bring pictures oftheir husbands, we talk about
their husbands, and so they havethat community.
And just the time of themtalking with each other when Ron
and I aren't around is healingfor them, which is wonderful.
(25:27):
But then the other thing we dowe pamper them because they need
to be cared for, right, thesewomen.
We work with them one-on-onewith processing Remember, I told
you the importance of actuallyprocessing all the emotions and
get it out.
So we know how to get it out.
Does that make sense?
We know how to discover what itis and how to clear it for you.
(25:50):
It's a really beautiful way.
It goes deep within your heartand it's not what we find when
people are stuck.
Michelle, this is what a lot ofthe widows will say.
They're not choosing to staywhere they are, they just have
no idea how to get out of it orwhat to do.
And when we do the processingand we see what's on their heart
(26:10):
and they're burdened with which.
Some things they already know,but a lot of things they don't.
Until we go there and they canbe wearing things heavy emotions
, regrets and things like thatthat maybe aren't even logical,
but it doesn't matter becauseit's real to them.
So I will tell you, withoutgoing into a lot of detail, what
(26:31):
came out for me, which ifsomeone had told me I wouldn't
have known it and I would havesaid it's not true.
But when I went through theprocess, what came out for me is
I blamed myself for myhusband's death.
So he had a terrible headacheand I knew he did and I should
have made him go to the doctor.
We won't get into the wholething, but the point was it's
(26:53):
not my fault my husband's dead,and I know that you could
logically explain that to me,Michelle, but I needed to
process like it was my fault,because those are very real
feelings to me and just tellingme it's not didn't get rid of
them, going there andacknowledging them, or just even
how could you leave me, right?
I mean, you're mad at someonewho didn't choose to leave you,
(27:16):
but whatever it is, it justbrings all that stuff up and we
can clean the heart out a littlebit so that then they have less
pain.
We want them to remember theirhusbands and widows usually need
permission to get betterbecause we often feel like our
grief honors our husband Rightthat if we were doing better
(27:41):
then it would mean we didn'tlove them, which we again we
know that's not true, but youcan understand.
They need this permission so wecan clear the heart out a little
bit, teach them how to bringtheir husbands with them forward
, but in a different way, soit's not unhealthy at all.
And then we can ask thequestion what's life look like
(28:01):
for you now?
Once they get some freedom withtheir heart and some healing,
then we can figure out what lifewould be like for them.
And until that point it's veryhard because, again, that filter
, it's just.
There's so much there and wekind of describe being a widower
or a widower.
Ron came up with this analogyand it could be with other
(28:23):
losses as well.
So again, please, I don't meanto give too much attention to
this, but it's kind of likegoing to your house, which you
know, where everything is inyour house.
You live there for a long time,but all of a sudden you walk in
and it's pitch black, so youcan't see anything.
Well, that's okay.
Normally you could find yourway around, but now someone's
completely rearranged thefurniture and that's.
(28:48):
And most widows will nod theirhead to that, because that is
what maneuvering their life islike.
There are things that arefamiliar to them but they don't
even know who they are, theydon't feel like they belong,
they lose their sense ofidentity.
They're just and they'restumbling, trying to get through
and just surviving our existingthinking.
(29:11):
They can't be any better and wecan take them to another place
when we can clear this stuff.
And so you had said what's thesign of success?
Yes, it's true.
For us and it happens to eachlady at a different time maybe a
different step, but it is, ohmy gosh.
I feel so much lighter.
(29:32):
I had no idea how much I wascarrying until I actually took
it off.
And they're exhausted, eventhough it's a lovely time.
They're exhausted becausethere's so many emotions that
they're carrying that need to bedealt with.
They just, if you don't dealwith them now and they're not
choosing not to deal with them,they just don't know how to get
(29:54):
out there and then usually readythen to take new steps.
And one of my favorite thingsis when because we have two
aftercare sessions too, so westay connected with them and see
them on Zoom.
But they'll say my friends sayI look different, okay.
Michelle (30:10):
Yeah.
Anne-Marie (30:10):
Of course, that's not not everyone's gonna have a
total transformation, but someladies do, but they usually they
leave with hope and they leavewith lifelong friendships and,
hopefully, a different filter.
So you can see why we love whatwe do, because to be able to do
that in four days and theyusually don't wanna leave.
(30:32):
Oh, and we also do we work withhorses here too, so we do
equine coaching and the horsesare very, very powerful as well.
So it's just I think it's asacred place and to do this
healing work and I call a lot ofwhat we do brutal.
It's hard work, right, it'sbrutal.
Michelle (30:50):
That's good.
Anne-Marie (30:52):
But it's beautiful, it's so important and it is the
it makes all the difference inyour future when we can go there
.
And again, not everybody needsthis kind of care and support.
But there are a lot to do.
Michelle (31:09):
Yeah, well, again, it goes back to the fact that you
have that empathy and compassionbecause of having experience at
yourself, and I love the factthat you shared your actual
experience.
You didn't just say I hadsomething, but you went next
level and you said what it wasthat you felt like it was your
fault that your husband died,and I think not just widows I
(31:31):
lost my son.
You do go through all of thosequestions in your mind Could I
have done something different?
Was this my fault?
All of these things that youcarry around.
So I think it's wonderful thatyou create this place for
like-minded people to come andfeel like they can be vulnerable
with one another.
I think that that's just sobeautiful and the healing
(31:52):
component of it is beautifulBrutiful.
Anne-Marie (31:56):
Brutiful.
They're excited and scared tocome at the same time.
Michelle (32:01):
Well, I was also gonna ask you do you by chance match
them when you get theirapplications?
Anne-Marie (32:07):
That's a good question.
No, well, we screen everybody,so you can't just sign up.
So they have to have aninterview with me, and that's
because it's a very specialcandidate, right?
And we wanna make sure thatit's going to work for them.
If it's not, that's not goodfor them and it's not good for
us either.
So sometimes people won't beready, it's too soon, and we'll
(32:30):
tell them.
You know, and I talk to them,it's too soon, you're not ready
for this work yet.
You won't get the results.
Or some people don't wanna dothe work Sometimes when you say,
look, there's gonna be somework involved so we can screen
it, and the ladies always knowif it's right for them.
So when I talked to them I saidthis isn't about getting you to
this retreat.
We're talking to see if it'seven a good fit for you and if
(32:51):
it's not, then let's see whatelse might be able to be done
and maybe I could recommend it.
So they always know.
But, Michelle, I have to tellyou so once I know they're a
good candidate, I don't worryabout who goes with who, because
they always connect.
Always Different ages,different types of death, they
(33:12):
always connect and they becomesisters.
It's so special and I justbelieve God's hand.
You know, this isn't a Christianretreat.
We are Christians, buteverybody needs this help and if
someone wants to bring theirfaith into it, we love to do
that.
So, and of course, ron and Iare praying about all of this
all the time anyway, whetherpeople are believers or not, but
(33:34):
we just this is such a giftfrom God to be able to do this
work and to share these hearts,and we just believe that this is
why God's allowing us to dothis, like we need to help these
women, and it's the greatestjoy to do it, to just see them
smile and laugh.
Some of them haven't laughed,and we have one night where I
(33:56):
play games with them.
I said we are gonna play a gameand you just hear them laughing
and they haven't laughed.
Michelle (34:03):
They have permission to laugh.
Anne-Marie (34:05):
Permission and you know we give them.
We have a whole permission listfor them about the permissions
that we're giving them.
Michelle (34:12):
So you understand that I get it, I get it.
Anne-Marie (34:15):
They are so hard on themselves and we are so hard on
ourselves and we feel like wehave to pretend we're okay when
we're not.
So you can see why this is areally sacred space.
I wish we could have them evenlonger, and we tend to become a
family.
It's very hard to let them go,and they always send us updates
for years after, which we love.
Michelle (34:35):
That's great, yeah, and I'm glad that you pointed
out that it's not exclusive.
It's on a faith-based communitythat it's welcomed, but it's
not part of the criteria.
So, Anne- Marie, this has beenso great.
Thank you for your wisdom andinsights.
You shared so many good pointsabout grief and loss.
You made it clear that everyoneexperiences grief differently,
(34:58):
so we should never put our ownexpectations on others.
Just walk beside them and letthem grieve.
You told us you experiencedshock, fear, a very deep level
of pain, brain fog, a lack ofzest for living and even a loss
of security when your husbanddied, and you want listeners to
(35:20):
know that all those emotions arenormal and to be expected
following the loss of a lovedone.
You explained that grieverswill initially have a difficult
time with hope, and the thingsthat others say about enjoying
what you have are hard to hearat this time, because sorrow
tends to cloud your ability toenjoy the good things.
For a time, you said youengaged in therapy, in that you
(35:43):
enjoyed the safe space to shareyour thoughts, and you
highlighted the importance ofseeking a therapist who
specializes in grief at thisimportant time in your life.
And, marie, what other lessonshave you learned having been
through all of this, can youshare with someone listening who
needs hope right now?
Anne-Marie (36:02):
I hope that some of the things that I will say will
help, and I hope that some ofthe things that I say won't
frustrate or anger them becausethey're not there.
So sometimes, when I would saya message of hope, that can
anger some people if it's earlyon in their grief, right,
because they can't imagine it.
So please just know when I saythat, I say it with a lot of
(36:23):
sensitivity, but I know whatit's like to ache beyond belief
and to have a pain that'sunimaginable, and I know what
it's like to want to die and notgo on.
But I'm living proof.
This is what I tell people.
You know that I didn't havehope, but I am living proof that
you can get through this, thatthere is another side, that
(36:47):
there is hope, that in time okay, and there's no way around it
in time and with active, healthy, grieving steps, life can be
good again.
And you can be good again.
Even though life is different,all right, and you are different
it can still be good.
And so I just want to leavethat message.
(37:08):
But we might have to dosomething, we might need that
extra care right to get thereand healing.
Healing and getting better isnot about forgetting your loved
one.
It is absolutely aboutremembering them and remembering
them well, but without the samepain.
Being in excruciating pain isdifferent than missing them.
(37:30):
Right that we have the missing.
So that that's true.
We have to, and I've learned,you have to be gracious to
yourself when you're grievingand you have to be gracious to
those around you.
Lower your expectations of whatyou can do and lower your
expectations of those around you, because they just won't get it
(37:52):
.
I learned that.
I learned the importance ofconnecting with a community that
understands.
So to be with other widows, tobe with other grievers and I
host a widow's tea once a monthand I'm telling you those ladies
they've been coming, they loveeach other once a month and
they've all different yearsafter their losses.
(38:12):
But and we don't evennecessarily talk about our
widowhood, but that connectionis just so special.
And so sometimes maybe youcan't find a community, but you
could even create a community.
Society doesn't know aboutgrief and we usually don't know
about it either.
So you know, we know how to getthings, but we don't know what
(38:36):
to do when we lose things.
So when we can recognize thatwe aren't equipped, usually
there's freedom in that to knowthat, okay, I do need some help.
Just like with a physicalinjury, I need help with this
emotional injury.
The other thing is and I knowthis is going to be hard for
people to hear is that becauseof that deep, deep pit that
(38:59):
opened inside me full of pain, Idid believe one day and I
didn't right away believe thisthat maybe one day it would be
filled with something else.
And I can tell you now thatthat deep place that was opened
up in me because of my pain isnow filled with joy.
So I know joy to a deeper levelthan I ever would have had had
(39:23):
I not had this pain.
And I know for those aching,you want to probably swear at me
right now, and I have hadpeople swear at me and you go
for it.
You should, because that's whatI, that's what I would do too.
But I've experienced it.
I know it to be true that intime you can grow because of
your grief.
And my husband and I, Ron, wouldsay we are both better versions
(39:46):
of ourselves because of ourpain.
And but I have to say that doescoincide with my faith right, it
really does that there is ahope in God, that we can trust
him with our pain, if, if wewill.
And God did not take away mypain, but he held me in it.
(40:07):
So I said he was a great pitpartner.
I was in the pit and he I'mlike, take me out.
And he didn't take me out, buthe held me and he held me and I
just trusted him.
But I fought with him a lot andI told him this is too much, I
can't take it, I'm going to die.
But now here I am, okay, fastforward, and I have such joy now
(40:30):
.
I can think of my husband nowand smile and I would never
wanted it to happen, but I cansee all the growth and good that
has come from it and that iswhat God can do.
Right, that is what God can do.
So I want to leave with amessage of hope.
I hope that wasn't too much.
Michelle (40:51):
Yeah, thank you, Anne- Marie.
I think I've said those wordsin some way shape or form so
many times that, yes, we wouldnever ask for anything like this
to happen in a million years,and if we could have them back,
yes, we'd want them back.
But the good that can come fromit, that God can use these
terrible circumstances for good,it's amazing, and what you're
(41:12):
doing to help other people nowis so important.
So good did come of it.
I will put a link to yourwebsite in the show notes so
that listeners can learn moreabout the widows retreat and
everything else that you offer,but at this time, I just want to
say thank you so much foragreeing to be my guest today.
I really appreciate it.
Anne-Marie (41:30):
Oh, thank you.
It was a joy to have thisconversation and thank you for
what you do.
This talking about grief is soimportant, and thank you for
using your pain and yourcircumstances to help others too
.
Thank you, Anne-Marie.
Michelle (41:45):
So for those of you listening, it's my hope that you
heard something and all thatAnne- Marie had to share that
provided hope or comfort in yourtime of grief, and I completely
agree with what she said, thatif someone would have told me
early on that good would havecome from my son's death, I
would have wanted to swear atthem too, but like Anne- Marie,
(42:07):
I am also proof that good caneventually come in time.
It's so hard right now, Ireally know.
But hang in there, my friend,and for now, be kind to yourself
.
Surround yourself with peoplewho love you and who get you,
and don't leave God out of theequation.
(42:27):
He is truly the source of allhope and He'll walk beside you
at this time.
The Bible says in Psalms,chapter 34, verse 18, that He's
near to the brokenhearted.
Let that permeate your mind andyour soul today.
Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.