February 2, 2024 • 26 mins
At the age of 13, Katherine made the choice to exclude her father from her life. By going no contact with him, she hoped to rid herself of his toxic behavior and safeguard her own mental health.
Listen in to our conversation as Katherine shares about her emotional journey of stepping away from her father for 13 years and the impact it had on her adult life. She also discusses the liberating force of forgiveness and its essential role in overcoming bitterness, anger, and the importance of praying for those not ready to mend fences.
https://leonfe.org/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/opportunitymade/
https://leonfoundation.thinkific.com/ - free leadership course
#nocontact #reconciliation #forgiveness #toxicbehavior #radicalacceptance
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:09):
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Families and family dynamicscan be complicated In any home.
Disagreements andmisunderstandings are bound to
(00:32):
happen, and we know minorconflicts between family members
are normal, but ongoing tension, resentment and toxic
interactions can be lastingsources of frustration.
They can also tearrelationships apart and have
long-term effects on the healthand well-being of those involved
.
(00:53):
Well, my guest today grew up ina difficult family environment,
specifically in a strainedrelationship with her father,
and as a teenager she made adecision to exclude him from her
life.
During the years that followed,she struggled with purpose
worth, perfectionism andworkaholism, but her journey
(01:14):
also provided her with a helpingof wisdom and valuable insight
that she would eventually use tohelp other people.
Today she's a keynote speakerand a podcast host, and she runs
the Leon Foundation ofExcellence, a program that helps
youth heal intergenerationalpatterns of trauma.
Her name is Catherine Lewis andit's my pleasure to have her as
(01:35):
my guest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified, Katherine.
Katherine (01:40):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Michelle (01:43):
Great, me too.
Thanks so much.
Let's start off by talkingabout that relationship with
your dad.
Can you just tell us a littlebit about the background and
then what actually happened whenyou were 13 that prompted your
decision to end yourrelationship with him?
Katherine (02:00):
My dad is an incredible man and he's also a
human, which means that we allare broken.
We all have imperfections, andhe had those too.
When I was young, he had a lotof stress, a lot of things that
he was dealing with, as most ofus adults do, and when things
(02:21):
got too stressful, he wouldhandle it in different ways that
were traumatic for me, and Ihad some kind of unique sense of
emotional intelligence as achild, to where I could see that
he had an alternative option,that he didn't have to respond
to me in that way.
But it was a matter of himworking on himself and making a
(02:44):
different choice, gaining skillsand tools that could help him
manage his own frustration andstress and respond to me
differently.
And so I would go to him and Iwould say, hey, can you do this?
It hurts me when you do that,and I'd ask him to change.
(03:04):
And we'd have this sorrowfulmoment when we would come
together and he would empathize,he would understand, of course
he doesn't want to hurt me, andthen the behavior would continue
, because change is often hardand it takes time, especially if
you don't have the right toolsor if you've had decades of
programming that has reallyaffected and habituated the way
(03:26):
that you respond to life, and so, when I was 13, I had reached
my limit.
I was a little bit overcontinuing to ask and not seeing
that change, and so I asked him, when my parents divorced, to
remove himself from my life, andso I lived with my mom and we
didn't see each other for thenext 13 years.
Michelle (03:49):
That was incredibly insightful for you as a young
person to have those boundariesand to take a stand for your own
mental health and say, hey,that's not healthy, I don't want
to be treated that way.
So good for you, and I canimagine that some of his
behavior probably contributed tothe problems and in his
relationship with your mom, thatmay or may not have been the
(04:09):
case, but how did your mom reactto your decision?
Katherine (04:14):
She was okay with the decision and, I would imagine,
because they had decided tosplit up, that that increased
the support.
They had their own struggles,they had things that they were
working through, and nowadays Ican say that they're good
friends and that's a beautifulthing.
(04:34):
They've both grown immensely.
At the time, there was thisdepiction of my dad as being the
bad guy, and so she was inagreement with me in terms of
saying that his behavior neededto change, so there wasn't a lot
of resistance to my decision.
Michelle (04:52):
Yeah, well, let's talk about that time.
You make this hard decision andthen you're moving forward at
age 13, without your father andyour life.
Now what did your life looklike, and did you feel like
things instantly got better, ordid you trade one hard thing for
another?
Katherine (05:11):
I would say that it was a mix.
So it's definitely hard to liveyour life without a parent, a
mother, a father, a guardian whomight have raised you and then
passes away.
Whatever the situation is, lossis difficult, and so it was
hard, as someone who's growinginto a young woman, to not have
(05:34):
my father at my sporting eventsto guide me.
When I was strugglingacademically, socially, with
relationships, with justbecoming a young woman, I needed
my dad's guidance, and so therewas a big piece of loss there,
but I don't think I knew it atthe time, because I was coming
(05:55):
from this perspective of I'vealready asked you for the more
that I want from you, and youhaven't given it to me, and so
I'm going to harden my heart alittle bit and just say that's
fine, I can do it on my own,I'll figure this out.
And so I got this roughenedattitude of misindependence and
I'll be my own superhero, I canfigure it out.
(06:16):
And so I don't know that at thetime I really understood how
much I missed what I was missingout on, and instead it was full
bore, diving deep into becominga workaholic.
I'm going to be perfect interms of my grades and how I'm
doing in school, I'm going toengage in clubs, I'm going to do
(06:37):
sports, I'm going to try andperform at my peak as much as
possible across every aspect oflife.
And this was a pattern thatthen was perpetuated for the
next 15 years, I would say, andreally helped develop to who I
am.
There's beauty in it, butthere's also a lot of things
(07:00):
that I look back on and thinkwell, it would have been nice to
have been softer.
It would have been nice to havenot been so extreme in my
desire for perfectionism and foraccomplishment and success in
work.
Michelle (07:15):
Yeah, I mean as an outside observer.
It sounds like you went througha mourning period with the loss
of your dad, but it seems likeyou quickly kind of got to this
place of radical acceptance andthen changed your life as a
result of it, and that'sdifficult to do, so let's talk
about then what happened next.
(07:36):
I mean, how did thisrelationship somehow get mended?
Katherine (07:41):
When I was in early, early 20s maybe 2021, I tried to
rebuild that relationship withhim and him with me, and there
was a summer in which I stayedat his place I was doing an
internship near where he livedand we tried to reconcile and
(08:05):
there just was a ton of hurtstill.
It was still pretty difficultand I decided again to just back
off, and so I wasn't ready yet.
We weren't in a place where Icould accept the way that he is,
that I had enough tools tohandle situations appropriately
(08:27):
not to say that I was handlingthem inappropriately, but just
in a way to where it really washealing and beautiful.
We had a lot of betrayal and alot of trauma between us.
Fast forward a few years and Iremember preparing for Teach for
America, which is a programthat I went through, and I was
on ASU's campus over the summerteaching middle school students.
(08:51):
But I also had a decent amountof free time and I would do a
ton of journaling, a lot ofprayer, and I came to this place
where I was sitting on thisbench on the campus it was super
hot and sunny outside and thisbird came and it was singing its
song and it sat down right nextto me and in that moment, this
(09:14):
peace was just brought upon meand I felt completely okay and
this complete surrendering, thisrelease, with the animosity
between my dad and I I justcompletely was able to surrender
it.
My heart felt healed and I wasable to say, yeah, I forgive you
(09:36):
.
And I called him in that momentand I was.
You know, there were definitelytears, I was crying a bit and I
told him.
I said, dad, I love you so muchand I forgive you for
everything.
And that was a huge steptowards us healing.
And, of course, he forgave meas well, and maybe it's not an
of course statement.
(09:57):
He could have been better, hecould have been resentful, but,
like I said, he's an incredibleperson and forgave me.
And from there we were able tostart building back our
relationship.
There are certain boundariesthat we had to have in place,
certain things that we had to beaware of in terms of how do we
communicate with each other andwhere people actually coming
(10:18):
from different ways that we hadto mature.
But it's been three years nowthat we have had our
relationship restored and it'sbeen absolutely beautiful.
So we separated when I was 13,came back together 13 years
later and now have had threeyears of an incredible
(10:39):
relationship and, you know, evena quick anecdotal demonstration
of that is now having my dadtake me on.
Daddy daughter dates and you'renever too old for that, and so
it's just great to spend timewith him in that way and we talk
all the time.
So there's this completerestoration of memory that we
(11:02):
didn't get to have and hisguidance, which I missed out on
as a young woman.
Michelle (11:08):
Wow.
Well, I love the story of thebird and I can relate to that.
I think in so many otherstories of loss that people have
shared on this show, peoplehave talked about seeing birds
or sunsets or beautiful momentsof peace that just kind of
affirms in their heart a stepthey should take or that a loved
one is OK.
So I understand what that means.
(11:30):
I also think it was incrediblyordained that you knew at that
moment that you should ask forforgiveness and that his heart
was at a soft enough place toforgive you in return, because
you were quite vulnerable atthat time.
He could have shut you down.
So it does seem like the timewas right and you said that you
prayed beforehand and when youfelt that moment.
(11:51):
So can you talk a little bitabout that?
What role did your faith havein that whole process?
Katherine (11:59):
At that time, I had a strong relationship with God,
but I will clarify and say itwasn't God of the Bible and God
of Jesus Christ, it was justthis general God.
I grew up, new age, and so itwas a divine love, spirit,
universe, whatever you want tocall it, but we still had this
(12:20):
relationship, and ultimately itwas God.
That wasn't my frame ofreference, but we had this
relationship, and I have alwaysprayed.
I've always turned to God forguidance, and so prayer and God
Himself have played a big role.
It's only within this past yearthat I myself have become a
Christian, but, yes, jesusChrist has completely changed my
(12:42):
life.
He wasn't in my life, or Ihadn't accepted Him into my life
.
Michelle (12:47):
At that point in time, though, Well, God certainly
knew what he was doing and hewas working things out and
loving on you even before youhad given your life to Him.
So, Katherine, thanks forsharing all about your
relationship with your fatherand how things finally turned
out the way they did, which isso good.
But for someone listening who'scurrently struggling in a
(13:08):
strained relationship with aparent, what words of
encouragement do you have tooffer based on your experience?
Katherine (13:16):
There are several things that I could say.
Number one and it's easy for meto say this where I'm at now
but there is nothing worse thanliving life without our parents.
Some of us don't have thatchoice, but some of us do.
And when we have that choice,for me, I want to do everything
(13:37):
I can to value and cherish andmake the most of those
relationships.
And that was my intent in termsof that healing journey that I
went on and I was not going togo through my life not having a
relationship with my dad.
I buckled down and dideverything I could to heal stuff
within me, to feel all theanger, all the hurt, and restore
(13:59):
that.
And so, first and foremost isno matter what pain you've been
through, know that theyabsolutely love you.
Like there is no parent whofundamentally does not love
their child and want the bestfor them.
They have the skills and thetools to demonstrate that in the
way that makes sense to you, inthe way that you prefer, even
(14:20):
in a way that is healthy, butfundamentally, that is the truth
.
Then from there we can startworking on ourselves and say,
okay, well, does this matter tome?
And of course the answer isprobably yes, but it's still a
good question to ask, and thenfrom there we can do the work
that we need to forgive.
Now I will say for my ownjourney, there was a period of
(14:43):
probably 10 years where I wasvery angry, I was very bitter.
When I was younger, I didn'tcuss, but I would write curse
words in the carpet with my feet, you know, because I was just
so mad or I'd hit a pillow orsomething like that.
It's fine for those feelings tobe there.
We just can't live in them,like, do what it takes to move
(15:07):
through them and to heal,because then you can start to
forgive, and forgiveness issomething that's important to
recognize.
It's not about forgetting.
So I still had to know thatthere are certain boundaries I
need to have in place so we havea healthy relationship.
I'm not just completelyforgetting the way that we work
together, but you forgiveeverything.
(15:30):
And I will say now, becoming aChristian like Jesus Christ does
make it even easier to forgivewhen you understand the
forgiveness that he's giving youall the time, unconditionally,
before you're even born, and sothat's a huge piece of
reconciliation.
The last thing I'll say is itdoes take two, and so you may be
(15:50):
in a situation where you say,well, I really want to restore
that relationship, but they'rejust not ready, and for me, the
best answer is prayer, praycontinuously that they can have
a softening of heart, that theycan forgive, that they can heal
within themselves.
They may not be willing torestore, not because they don't
(16:11):
love you, but because they can'tforgive themselves for what
they did.
You never know what's going on,and so I'll just say that
prayer is powerful.
I had someone pray for 17 yearsthat I would come to know the
Lord, and they never gave up,and I'm so, so grateful.
And so it could take some time,but know that this matters and
be willing to pray.
Michelle (16:34):
Really good.
Thank you for that, Katherine.
Well, I talked about yourfoundation, the Leon Foundation,
and the opening, and Imentioned that you used what you
went through to help otherpeople and you continue to do it
.
Can you just give us a littlesnapshot of what that foundation
does and what you do in it?
Katherine (16:54):
Absolutely.
When I was a teenager, I hadalready separated from my dad
and I resorted to reading a lotof books, going to therapy,
finding mentors.
I had family members who camearound me to support me.
It really was a village to getme through that period in life,
(17:14):
and I recognized that when I didhave a little bit of insight
into life as a child I don'tknow where it came from, I just
knew that I had it, and I alsohad a ton of resources around me
that I recognized other peoplemay not have access to.
I had the ability to read allof these books, go to these
therapy sessions, things that alot of people don't get to do
(17:36):
for various reasons and so Iwanted to culminate everything
that I had learned and turn itinto a program where I could
help students who were goingthrough similar things.
We all go through trauma,sometimes it's really big,
sometimes it's just those microtraumas of arguments and
fighting or divorce, which canalso be a huge trauma, depending
(17:56):
.
But I wanted a community wherepeople could come together, we
could have fun, we could startthat journey of self-awareness,
discovering our own patterns,things that we needed to heal,
and then gain those tools that Ifelt like my dad was missing,
and you know many of us are, butit would have been helpful if
you had them.
(18:17):
How do we communicateeffectively?
How do we take a second and say, wow, I'm really angry right
now and it's because this thinghappened earlier in the day that
I couldn't control, but it'sthreatening my position at work
and whether or not I'll get apromotion, and I'm so sorry that
I'm taking it out on you orwhatever the case may be, but
(18:39):
just those seemingly simplethings that actually make a
really big difference in thequality of our relationships.
I wanted students to learn thosethings before they were making
decisions about their futurerelationships, their career,
that they could heal thosecycles of trauma within their
own families before they lefthome.
And so it's been eight yearsnow that we've been working with
(19:02):
students all across really theworld.
It's kind of incredible.
So we're locally focused inDenver, colorado, but during the
pandemic we had the opportunityto work with 50 students from
across the United States andfour other countries, and I just
felt so blessed to be able tomeet these people, get insight
(19:22):
into their own journeys, and wehave seen some incredible
healing happen through theseprograms.
Michelle (19:28):
Well.
Congratulations on your success.
I think what you're doing withyoung people is so important,
and I love that you're usingyour experience to help other
people.
So, catherine, I lovedlistening to your story and
hearing all the valuableinformation you had to share
with us.
You talked about the hard stuffof family relationships and you
(19:49):
expressed the way you felt wheninteractions with your father
weren't healthy.
You told us that you asked yourdad to change the way he
responded to you, and when hedidn't, you put boundaries in
place.
You acknowledged that, eventhough you stood your ground and
you made the hard decision towalk away from each other, you
experienced great loss withoutyour father's presence in your
(20:12):
life.
You shared about how your adultlife was impacted by the
absence of your dad, and youtook steps to reconcile.
On a few separate occasions,you brought up some important
points for us to ponder aboutour relationships, and then you
offered up your experience withforgiveness and how important it
is to release our negativefeelings in order to move
(20:33):
forward in a healthy way, andyou also reminded us about the
power of prayer and how we canpray for those who hurt us to
have a softening of their hearts.
Katherine, what other lessonshave you learned through all
your experiences?
Can you share with someonelistening who needs help right
now?
Katherine (20:52):
There are three things that I'll share.
Number one is to have gratitudefor those who are with you now.
Do not take advantage, and thisdoesn't have to do with
dramatic relationships, but justthe people who are around you
in this moment.
It's such a pleasure.
I mean even just the fact thatyou and I are talking.
What are the chances?
(21:13):
There are 8 billion people inthis world and the fact that I
ever in my own lifetime get tomeet you is so incredible.
It is such a privilege and Idon't know how long it's going
to last or if it will ever crosspaths again.
And so everyone that you comein contact with, it's a blessing
.
If it's just the person at thegrocery store, don't miss those
(21:34):
opportunities to see the beautyand to value those interactions.
I just think it's fantasticwhen we can take a second and be
intentional in that.
The other piece is to forgivequickly.
Life is so, so messy and it'snot going to be the perfect
story that we're seeing onsocial media or in the movies.
(21:55):
It just isn't for any of us.
I don't care how wealthy youare, how beautiful you are, how
educated you are.
It's still a mess, but it'sokay.
The difference is we have toforgive and let things go and be
willing to accept whatever'shappening to us in the moment,
rather than trying to resist andcontrol and make things work
(22:16):
out a certain way, and when wedon't forgive, we're still in
that state of pride and control.
Instead, we need to humbleourselves and just be quick to
forgive.
Now I do want to say that thatdoesn't necessarily mean you
have to stay in situations thatare dangerous or abusive.
Be safe, have good boundaries,but still forgive everyone.
(22:38):
The last piece of that is againjust kind of coming back to
that intentionality.
So we don't know when we'regoing to lose each other.
Be intentional in having qualitytime with folks.
Ask deep questions what's goingon in your day?
Drill down into that.
(22:58):
How do you like to be loved Ifwe could just do anything for a
day?
What would you want to do andthen actually make time in your
schedule to do that?
I know I received feedback thatI tend to schedule people in and
it's because I have so muchgoing on, but friends and family
have told me hey, when youinvite me to something, it feels
(23:19):
like you're already doing thisand you just want me to come
along.
If it works for me.
What if you came to me and said, hey, what do you want to do?
And whatever it is, whenever itis like, let's go do it.
And it was that small littleshift and that piece of feedback
that I received that haschanged relationships, just
having that quality time.
So here's a bonus one is bewilling to take feedback from
(23:43):
folks, because that willincrease the quality of the time
that you have with them andyour relationships.
And again, all of this comesback to we don't know when we're
going to lose each other, wedon't know when we're going to
go, and so let's value the timethat we have now.
Michelle (23:59):
Well, thank you for those really good tips, and I
can appreciate the time factor.
We don't know when we're goingto lose people and we talk about
that on every episode, and soexpressing gratitude,
forgiveness, being intentional,no small talk, going deep and
really appreciating people, Iagree with you 100%.
I'm a fan.
(24:19):
So, Katherine, thank you somuch.
I am going to put a link toyour website in the show notes
so that people can learn aboutthe foundation and everything
else that you do.
Is there anything else that youwant to add in that?
I failed to ask you.
Katherine (24:36):
I just want to say thank you so much for this time.
With everything that we weretalking about, I think this
conversation is super important.
If anyone is nervous aboutinitiating these conversations,
trying to restore theserelationships, feel free to
reach out to me on LinkedIn.
I know that that will be linkedin the show notes below, but
(24:58):
I'm happy to jump on a call withanyone and if we need to run
through tips, if we need to justhave a chat, if you just need
an accountability to reach outto that person and restore that
relationship or walk throughforgiveness, I'm happy to be
there for anyone because thismatters so, so much.
So please feel free to send mea chat.
Michelle (25:20):
Oh, I love it.
Okay, stand by for my phonecall, okay.
Okay, all right, Katherine.
Well, it's been a pleasuremeeting you and getting to know
you, and I hope our paths docross again, okay.
Katherine (25:32):
Me too.
Thank you for having me.
Michelle (25:36):
So, for those of you listening, if you can relate to
Katherine's story, it's not toolate to make a change.
Bitterness and resentment cantake its toll on us emotionally
and physically, and taking stepsto embrace forgiveness can do
wonders for the soul.
And while it's so important notto return to a toxic
(25:57):
relationship, it is possible tohave the peace that comes with
bringing God into the matter,whether it leads to a
reconciliation and healthychange, like it did for
Katherine, or if it's just amatter of you working it out
with God to let go of the angerso you can enjoy a life of
freedom.
I pray that would begin for youtoday.
(26:18):
Thanks for listening.
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Families and family dynamicscan be complicated In any home.
Disagreements andmisunderstandings are bound to
(00:32):
happen, and we know minorconflicts between family members
are normal, but ongoing tension, resentment and toxic
interactions can be lastingsources of frustration.
They can also tearrelationships apart and have
long-term effects on the healthand well-being of those involved
.
(00:53):
Well, my guest today grew up ina difficult family environment,
specifically in a strainedrelationship with her father,
and as a teenager she made adecision to exclude him from her
life.
During the years that followed,she struggled with purpose
worth, perfectionism andworkaholism, but her journey
(01:14):
also provided her with a helpingof wisdom and valuable insight
that she would eventually use tohelp other people.
Today she's a keynote speakerand a podcast host, and she runs
the Leon Foundation ofExcellence, a program that helps
youth heal intergenerationalpatterns of trauma.
Her name is Catherine Lewis andit's my pleasure to have her as
(01:35):
my guest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified, Katherine.
Katherine (01:40):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Michelle (01:43):
Great, me too.
Thanks so much.
Let's start off by talkingabout that relationship with
your dad.
Can you just tell us a littlebit about the background and
then what actually happened whenyou were 13 that prompted your
decision to end yourrelationship with him?
Katherine (02:00):
My dad is an incredible man and he's also a
human, which means that we allare broken.
We all have imperfections, andhe had those too.
When I was young, he had a lotof stress, a lot of things that
he was dealing with, as most ofus adults do, and when things
(02:21):
got too stressful, he wouldhandle it in different ways that
were traumatic for me, and Ihad some kind of unique sense of
emotional intelligence as achild, to where I could see that
he had an alternative option,that he didn't have to respond
to me in that way.
But it was a matter of himworking on himself and making a
(02:44):
different choice, gaining skillsand tools that could help him
manage his own frustration andstress and respond to me
differently.
And so I would go to him and Iwould say, hey, can you do this?
It hurts me when you do that,and I'd ask him to change.
(03:04):
And we'd have this sorrowfulmoment when we would come
together and he would empathize,he would understand, of course
he doesn't want to hurt me, andthen the behavior would continue
, because change is often hardand it takes time, especially if
you don't have the right toolsor if you've had decades of
programming that has reallyaffected and habituated the way
(03:26):
that you respond to life, and so, when I was 13, I had reached
my limit.
I was a little bit overcontinuing to ask and not seeing
that change, and so I asked him, when my parents divorced, to
remove himself from my life, andso I lived with my mom and we
didn't see each other for thenext 13 years.
Michelle (03:49):
That was incredibly insightful for you as a young
person to have those boundariesand to take a stand for your own
mental health and say, hey,that's not healthy, I don't want
to be treated that way.
So good for you, and I canimagine that some of his
behavior probably contributed tothe problems and in his
relationship with your mom, thatmay or may not have been the
(04:09):
case, but how did your mom reactto your decision?
Katherine (04:14):
She was okay with the decision and, I would imagine,
because they had decided tosplit up, that that increased
the support.
They had their own struggles,they had things that they were
working through, and nowadays Ican say that they're good
friends and that's a beautifulthing.
(04:34):
They've both grown immensely.
At the time, there was thisdepiction of my dad as being the
bad guy, and so she was inagreement with me in terms of
saying that his behavior neededto change, so there wasn't a lot
of resistance to my decision.
Michelle (04:52):
Yeah, well, let's talk about that time.
You make this hard decision andthen you're moving forward at
age 13, without your father andyour life.
Now what did your life looklike, and did you feel like
things instantly got better, ordid you trade one hard thing for
another?
Katherine (05:11):
I would say that it was a mix.
So it's definitely hard to liveyour life without a parent, a
mother, a father, a guardian whomight have raised you and then
passes away.
Whatever the situation is, lossis difficult, and so it was
hard, as someone who's growinginto a young woman, to not have
(05:34):
my father at my sporting eventsto guide me.
When I was strugglingacademically, socially, with
relationships, with justbecoming a young woman, I needed
my dad's guidance, and so therewas a big piece of loss there,
but I don't think I knew it atthe time, because I was coming
(05:55):
from this perspective of I'vealready asked you for the more
that I want from you, and youhaven't given it to me, and so
I'm going to harden my heart alittle bit and just say that's
fine, I can do it on my own,I'll figure this out.
And so I got this roughenedattitude of misindependence and
I'll be my own superhero, I canfigure it out.
(06:16):
And so I don't know that at thetime I really understood how
much I missed what I was missingout on, and instead it was full
bore, diving deep into becominga workaholic.
I'm going to be perfect interms of my grades and how I'm
doing in school, I'm going toengage in clubs, I'm going to do
(06:37):
sports, I'm going to try andperform at my peak as much as
possible across every aspect oflife.
And this was a pattern thatthen was perpetuated for the
next 15 years, I would say, andreally helped develop to who I
am.
There's beauty in it, butthere's also a lot of things
(07:00):
that I look back on and thinkwell, it would have been nice to
have been softer.
It would have been nice to havenot been so extreme in my
desire for perfectionism and foraccomplishment and success in
work.
Michelle (07:15):
Yeah, I mean as an outside observer.
It sounds like you went througha mourning period with the loss
of your dad, but it seems likeyou quickly kind of got to this
place of radical acceptance andthen changed your life as a
result of it, and that'sdifficult to do, so let's talk
about then what happened next.
(07:36):
I mean, how did thisrelationship somehow get mended?
Katherine (07:41):
When I was in early, early 20s maybe 2021, I tried to
rebuild that relationship withhim and him with me, and there
was a summer in which I stayedat his place I was doing an
internship near where he livedand we tried to reconcile and
(08:05):
there just was a ton of hurtstill.
It was still pretty difficultand I decided again to just back
off, and so I wasn't ready yet.
We weren't in a place where Icould accept the way that he is,
that I had enough tools tohandle situations appropriately
(08:27):
not to say that I was handlingthem inappropriately, but just
in a way to where it really washealing and beautiful.
We had a lot of betrayal and alot of trauma between us.
Fast forward a few years and Iremember preparing for Teach for
America, which is a programthat I went through, and I was
on ASU's campus over the summerteaching middle school students.
(08:51):
But I also had a decent amountof free time and I would do a
ton of journaling, a lot ofprayer, and I came to this place
where I was sitting on thisbench on the campus it was super
hot and sunny outside and thisbird came and it was singing its
song and it sat down right nextto me and in that moment, this
(09:14):
peace was just brought upon meand I felt completely okay and
this complete surrendering, thisrelease, with the animosity
between my dad and I I justcompletely was able to surrender
it.
My heart felt healed and I wasable to say, yeah, I forgive you
(09:36):
.
And I called him in that momentand I was.
You know, there were definitelytears, I was crying a bit and I
told him.
I said, dad, I love you so muchand I forgive you for
everything.
And that was a huge steptowards us healing.
And, of course, he forgave meas well, and maybe it's not an
of course statement.
(09:57):
He could have been better, hecould have been resentful, but,
like I said, he's an incredibleperson and forgave me.
And from there we were able tostart building back our
relationship.
There are certain boundariesthat we had to have in place,
certain things that we had to beaware of in terms of how do we
communicate with each other andwhere people actually coming
(10:18):
from different ways that we hadto mature.
But it's been three years nowthat we have had our
relationship restored and it'sbeen absolutely beautiful.
So we separated when I was 13,came back together 13 years
later and now have had threeyears of an incredible
(10:39):
relationship and, you know, evena quick anecdotal demonstration
of that is now having my dadtake me on.
Daddy daughter dates and you'renever too old for that, and so
it's just great to spend timewith him in that way and we talk
all the time.
So there's this completerestoration of memory that we
(11:02):
didn't get to have and hisguidance, which I missed out on
as a young woman.
Michelle (11:08):
Wow.
Well, I love the story of thebird and I can relate to that.
I think in so many otherstories of loss that people have
shared on this show, peoplehave talked about seeing birds
or sunsets or beautiful momentsof peace that just kind of
affirms in their heart a stepthey should take or that a loved
one is OK.
So I understand what that means.
(11:30):
I also think it was incrediblyordained that you knew at that
moment that you should ask forforgiveness and that his heart
was at a soft enough place toforgive you in return, because
you were quite vulnerable atthat time.
He could have shut you down.
So it does seem like the timewas right and you said that you
prayed beforehand and when youfelt that moment.
(11:51):
So can you talk a little bitabout that?
What role did your faith havein that whole process?
Katherine (11:59):
At that time, I had a strong relationship with God,
but I will clarify and say itwasn't God of the Bible and God
of Jesus Christ, it was justthis general God.
I grew up, new age, and so itwas a divine love, spirit,
universe, whatever you want tocall it, but we still had this
(12:20):
relationship, and ultimately itwas God.
That wasn't my frame ofreference, but we had this
relationship, and I have alwaysprayed.
I've always turned to God forguidance, and so prayer and God
Himself have played a big role.
It's only within this past yearthat I myself have become a
Christian, but, yes, jesusChrist has completely changed my
(12:42):
life.
He wasn't in my life, or Ihadn't accepted Him into my life
.
Michelle (12:47):
At that point in time, though, Well, God certainly
knew what he was doing and hewas working things out and
loving on you even before youhad given your life to Him.
So, Katherine, thanks forsharing all about your
relationship with your fatherand how things finally turned
out the way they did, which isso good.
But for someone listening who'scurrently struggling in a
(13:08):
strained relationship with aparent, what words of
encouragement do you have tooffer based on your experience?
Katherine (13:16):
There are several things that I could say.
Number one and it's easy for meto say this where I'm at now
but there is nothing worse thanliving life without our parents.
Some of us don't have thatchoice, but some of us do.
And when we have that choice,for me, I want to do everything
(13:37):
I can to value and cherish andmake the most of those
relationships.
And that was my intent in termsof that healing journey that I
went on and I was not going togo through my life not having a
relationship with my dad.
I buckled down and dideverything I could to heal stuff
within me, to feel all theanger, all the hurt, and restore
(13:59):
that.
And so, first and foremost isno matter what pain you've been
through, know that theyabsolutely love you.
Like there is no parent whofundamentally does not love
their child and want the bestfor them.
They have the skills and thetools to demonstrate that in the
way that makes sense to you, inthe way that you prefer, even
(14:20):
in a way that is healthy, butfundamentally, that is the truth
.
Then from there we can startworking on ourselves and say,
okay, well, does this matter tome?
And of course the answer isprobably yes, but it's still a
good question to ask, and thenfrom there we can do the work
that we need to forgive.
Now I will say for my ownjourney, there was a period of
(14:43):
probably 10 years where I wasvery angry, I was very bitter.
When I was younger, I didn'tcuss, but I would write curse
words in the carpet with my feet, you know, because I was just
so mad or I'd hit a pillow orsomething like that.
It's fine for those feelings tobe there.
We just can't live in them,like, do what it takes to move
(15:07):
through them and to heal,because then you can start to
forgive, and forgiveness issomething that's important to
recognize.
It's not about forgetting.
So I still had to know thatthere are certain boundaries I
need to have in place so we havea healthy relationship.
I'm not just completelyforgetting the way that we work
together, but you forgiveeverything.
(15:30):
And I will say now, becoming aChristian like Jesus Christ does
make it even easier to forgivewhen you understand the
forgiveness that he's giving youall the time, unconditionally,
before you're even born, and sothat's a huge piece of
reconciliation.
The last thing I'll say is itdoes take two, and so you may be
(15:50):
in a situation where you say,well, I really want to restore
that relationship, but they'rejust not ready, and for me, the
best answer is prayer, praycontinuously that they can have
a softening of heart, that theycan forgive, that they can heal
within themselves.
They may not be willing torestore, not because they don't
(16:11):
love you, but because they can'tforgive themselves for what
they did.
You never know what's going on,and so I'll just say that
prayer is powerful.
I had someone pray for 17 yearsthat I would come to know the
Lord, and they never gave up,and I'm so, so grateful.
And so it could take some time,but know that this matters and
be willing to pray.
Michelle (16:34):
Really good.
Thank you for that, Katherine.
Well, I talked about yourfoundation, the Leon Foundation,
and the opening, and Imentioned that you used what you
went through to help otherpeople and you continue to do it
.
Can you just give us a littlesnapshot of what that foundation
does and what you do in it?
Katherine (16:54):
Absolutely.
When I was a teenager, I hadalready separated from my dad
and I resorted to reading a lotof books, going to therapy,
finding mentors.
I had family members who camearound me to support me.
It really was a village to getme through that period in life,
(17:14):
and I recognized that when I didhave a little bit of insight
into life as a child I don'tknow where it came from, I just
knew that I had it, and I alsohad a ton of resources around me
that I recognized other peoplemay not have access to.
I had the ability to read allof these books, go to these
therapy sessions, things that alot of people don't get to do
(17:36):
for various reasons and so Iwanted to culminate everything
that I had learned and turn itinto a program where I could
help students who were goingthrough similar things.
We all go through trauma,sometimes it's really big,
sometimes it's just those microtraumas of arguments and
fighting or divorce, which canalso be a huge trauma, depending
(17:56):
.
But I wanted a community wherepeople could come together, we
could have fun, we could startthat journey of self-awareness,
discovering our own patterns,things that we needed to heal,
and then gain those tools that Ifelt like my dad was missing,
and you know many of us are, butit would have been helpful if
you had them.
(18:17):
How do we communicateeffectively?
How do we take a second and say, wow, I'm really angry right
now and it's because this thinghappened earlier in the day that
I couldn't control, but it'sthreatening my position at work
and whether or not I'll get apromotion, and I'm so sorry that
I'm taking it out on you orwhatever the case may be, but
(18:39):
just those seemingly simplethings that actually make a
really big difference in thequality of our relationships.
I wanted students to learn thosethings before they were making
decisions about their futurerelationships, their career,
that they could heal thosecycles of trauma within their
own families before they lefthome.
And so it's been eight yearsnow that we've been working with
(19:02):
students all across really theworld.
It's kind of incredible.
So we're locally focused inDenver, colorado, but during the
pandemic we had the opportunityto work with 50 students from
across the United States andfour other countries, and I just
felt so blessed to be able tomeet these people, get insight
(19:22):
into their own journeys, and wehave seen some incredible
healing happen through theseprograms.
Michelle (19:28):
Well.
Congratulations on your success.
I think what you're doing withyoung people is so important,
and I love that you're usingyour experience to help other
people.
So, catherine, I lovedlistening to your story and
hearing all the valuableinformation you had to share
with us.
You talked about the hard stuffof family relationships and you
(19:49):
expressed the way you felt wheninteractions with your father
weren't healthy.
You told us that you asked yourdad to change the way he
responded to you, and when hedidn't, you put boundaries in
place.
You acknowledged that, eventhough you stood your ground and
you made the hard decision towalk away from each other, you
experienced great loss withoutyour father's presence in your
(20:12):
life.
You shared about how your adultlife was impacted by the
absence of your dad, and youtook steps to reconcile.
On a few separate occasions,you brought up some important
points for us to ponder aboutour relationships, and then you
offered up your experience withforgiveness and how important it
is to release our negativefeelings in order to move
(20:33):
forward in a healthy way, andyou also reminded us about the
power of prayer and how we canpray for those who hurt us to
have a softening of their hearts.
Katherine, what other lessonshave you learned through all
your experiences?
Can you share with someonelistening who needs help right
now?
Katherine (20:52):
There are three things that I'll share.
Number one is to have gratitudefor those who are with you now.
Do not take advantage, and thisdoesn't have to do with
dramatic relationships, but justthe people who are around you
in this moment.
It's such a pleasure.
I mean even just the fact thatyou and I are talking.
What are the chances?
(21:13):
There are 8 billion people inthis world and the fact that I
ever in my own lifetime get tomeet you is so incredible.
It is such a privilege and Idon't know how long it's going
to last or if it will ever crosspaths again.
And so everyone that you comein contact with, it's a blessing
.
If it's just the person at thegrocery store, don't miss those
(21:34):
opportunities to see the beautyand to value those interactions.
I just think it's fantasticwhen we can take a second and be
intentional in that.
The other piece is to forgivequickly.
Life is so, so messy and it'snot going to be the perfect
story that we're seeing onsocial media or in the movies.
(21:55):
It just isn't for any of us.
I don't care how wealthy youare, how beautiful you are, how
educated you are.
It's still a mess, but it'sokay.
The difference is we have toforgive and let things go and be
willing to accept whatever'shappening to us in the moment,
rather than trying to resist andcontrol and make things work
(22:16):
out a certain way, and when wedon't forgive, we're still in
that state of pride and control.
Instead, we need to humbleourselves and just be quick to
forgive.
Now I do want to say that thatdoesn't necessarily mean you
have to stay in situations thatare dangerous or abusive.
Be safe, have good boundaries,but still forgive everyone.
(22:38):
The last piece of that is againjust kind of coming back to
that intentionality.
So we don't know when we'regoing to lose each other.
Be intentional in having qualitytime with folks.
Ask deep questions what's goingon in your day?
Drill down into that.
(22:58):
How do you like to be loved Ifwe could just do anything for a
day?
What would you want to do andthen actually make time in your
schedule to do that?
I know I received feedback thatI tend to schedule people in and
it's because I have so muchgoing on, but friends and family
have told me hey, when youinvite me to something, it feels
(23:19):
like you're already doing thisand you just want me to come
along.
If it works for me.
What if you came to me and said, hey, what do you want to do?
And whatever it is, whenever itis like, let's go do it.
And it was that small littleshift and that piece of feedback
that I received that haschanged relationships, just
having that quality time.
So here's a bonus one is bewilling to take feedback from
(23:43):
folks, because that willincrease the quality of the time
that you have with them andyour relationships.
And again, all of this comesback to we don't know when we're
going to lose each other, wedon't know when we're going to
go, and so let's value the timethat we have now.
Michelle (23:59):
Well, thank you for those really good tips, and I
can appreciate the time factor.
We don't know when we're goingto lose people and we talk about
that on every episode, and soexpressing gratitude,
forgiveness, being intentional,no small talk, going deep and
really appreciating people, Iagree with you 100%.
I'm a fan.
(24:19):
So, Katherine, thank you somuch.
I am going to put a link toyour website in the show notes
so that people can learn aboutthe foundation and everything
else that you do.
Is there anything else that youwant to add in that?
I failed to ask you.
Katherine (24:36):
I just want to say thank you so much for this time.
With everything that we weretalking about, I think this
conversation is super important.
If anyone is nervous aboutinitiating these conversations,
trying to restore theserelationships, feel free to
reach out to me on LinkedIn.
I know that that will be linkedin the show notes below, but
(24:58):
I'm happy to jump on a call withanyone and if we need to run
through tips, if we need to justhave a chat, if you just need
an accountability to reach outto that person and restore that
relationship or walk throughforgiveness, I'm happy to be
there for anyone because thismatters so, so much.
So please feel free to send mea chat.
Michelle (25:20):
Oh, I love it.
Okay, stand by for my phonecall, okay.
Okay, all right, Katherine.
Well, it's been a pleasuremeeting you and getting to know
you, and I hope our paths docross again, okay.
Katherine (25:32):
Me too.
Thank you for having me.
Michelle (25:36):
So, for those of you listening, if you can relate to
Katherine's story, it's not toolate to make a change.
Bitterness and resentment cantake its toll on us emotionally
and physically, and taking stepsto embrace forgiveness can do
wonders for the soul.
And while it's so important notto return to a toxic
(25:57):
relationship, it is possible tohave the peace that comes with
bringing God into the matter,whether it leads to a
reconciliation and healthychange, like it did for
Katherine, or if it's just amatter of you working it out
with God to let go of the angerso you can enjoy a life of
freedom.
I pray that would begin for youtoday.
(26:18):
Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!