March 9, 2024 • 34 mins
When doctors diagnosed her father with mild cognitive disorder, a form of dementia that would likely progress to Alzheimer’s, Joycelyn was in denial. It was difficult to watch the decline of her superhero dad and she began to grieve the loss of the man he once was.
Her personal story will resonate with anyone who has walked alongside a loved one with cognitive decline and has experienced anticipatory grief. Listen in to this intimate discussion with Reverend Jocelyn Jones, as she shares her raw emotions and profound life lessons that will leave you inspired.
Rev. Jocelyn's website:
https://www.faithonthejourney.org/
Breaking the Power of the Mask:
https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Power-Mask-Discover-Healing/dp/1734046708/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1707439139&sr=8-1
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:10):
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Grief is the natural result ofloss.
We'll all experience grief atsome point in our lives, but
(00:32):
most people don't want to talkabout it or think about it in
advance.
When we find ourselves in thatplace, we'll have no choice but
to process those emotions.
But what will that look likefor us?
Well, most of us don't know,because we don't want to talk
about it or think about it inadvance.
But if you're listening today,you have most likely experienced
(00:54):
a loss and your grief might beoverwhelming you.
You might feel stuck or youmight feel angry.
You might not feel like otherpeople can relate to what you're
going through, because whathappened to you hasn't happened
to them and maybe you don't wantto burden them with your sorrow
.
So what do you do?
(01:15):
Well, some people make aneffort to hide their emotions.
They keep themselves busy withthe things of life and project a
sense of confidence and controlto those around them.
They put on an outwardappearance, a mask, so others
won't know how they feel inside.
Well, my guest today fullyunderstands the concept of
(01:39):
hiding behind a mask, as well asthe freedom that comes from
removing it.
She has a diverse backgroundthat affords her both personal
and professional experience onthis and other topics related to
grief and loss.
She earned her BA in journalismfrom the University of Iowa,
then accepted a position in thetelevision industry.
(02:00):
She eventually left TV to serveas executive director of a
youth center on Chicago's SouthSide, and while there she earned
her master's degree in socialwork from the University of
Chicago and then a master's intheological studies from
McCormick Theological Seminary.
Today she's an ordainedminister and the founder of
(02:21):
Faith on the Journey Counseling.
She's the author of the bookBreaking the Power of the Mask
and a master facilitator withthe Trauma Healing Institute.
Her name is Jocelyn Jones, andit's my great honor and
privilege to have her as myguest on the show today.
Welcome to qualified ReverendJocelyn.
Thank you.
Jocelyn (02:42):
Thank you, Michelle, so much for having me, of course.
Michelle (02:47):
Well, we started off by talking about how people
choose to process adversity andgrief, and you told me you had
your own unique experience whenyou lost your dad just a few
years ago.
Can you begin by telling us alittle about your dad and the
impact of his illness on hislife and yours, and then how his
(03:09):
passing impacted you?
Jocelyn (03:11):
Well, Michelle, I like to describe my dad's passing as
the slow kiss g oodbye.
M y dad, who was a superhero tome was a 10th degree black belt
and so he was well recognizedin the community, especially in
the African American community,and he was a constant, very
supportive, even though heworked a lot.
He was there and he was alwaysknown for being extremely sharp.
(03:36):
When he retired, they replacedhim with three people in his
corporate position, and so thatman was holding it down right.
He actually retired because henoticed that he was having
difficulty remembering things,going from someone who balanced
his checkbook down to the pennyand would call the bill people
(03:59):
when they were off, by somecents that type of sharp, to
having difficulties with thingsthat normally wouldn't be a
challenge for him.
And so he decided to retire andstill went on to do incredible
things like write a book, and hechallenged himself completely
with that type of drivenindividual.
(04:19):
But my brother and I noticedthat there were certain things
that he struggled with.
We would tell him like, hey,dad, this is how you use the
computer or this is how you usethis program, and we would have
to repeat ourselves, and wedidn't realize that my dad was
actually struggling withcognitive disorder, which
(04:41):
eventually developed into a mildcognitive disorder, and that
was a mild version of dementia,like a precursor, if you will,
to all timers.
Michelle (04:54):
Well, I can see why you referred to him as your
superhero.
He was a man of many gifts andtalents for sure, and I know you
adored him and looked up to himand I'm sure it was so
difficult for you to see adecline in his cognitive ability
.
You said the doctors called ita mild cognitive disorder and
(05:16):
then he was eventually diagnosedwith Alzheimer's.
Can you talk about that time,those next several years, and
how you felt about seeing thesechanges in your dad?
Jocelyn (05:28):
When he first got that diagnosis, we were really
concerned.
Obviously, we're trying to lookinto different natural ways to
help him to combat this illness,but unfortunately, things got
progressively worse and fastforward to 2020, we remember
(05:48):
2020 being a year that was justout of control, with the
pandemic and everything.
At this time, my dad was in hislast years.
I didn't realize it at the time, but it was so difficult
because I could not visit himbecause of you know, the staying
shut-in rules and everything,and so during that period he was
(06:12):
declining and it was a strugglefor him, first of all, because
my dad was an extrovert.
So you're keeping him inside.
Oh yeah, we had to take awayhis car keys because he couldn't
.
It wasn't safe for him to drive.
He was trying to break into thecar.
It was one time in which heliterally broke in and drove
down the street.
(06:32):
It was a whole situation right,so aggraved, but for him he was
struggling with the loss of hisindependence and telling him he
needed to stay indoors and alsoI mean accepting that reality
was challenging.
But I remember talking to himover the phone during the
(06:52):
pandemic and he sounded like hewas drunk.
He couldn't put words togetherand when I got off the phone
with him, I actually rushed theconversation because I got
overwhelmed with emotion.
I just broke down in tearsBecause I was like, oh my god,
what was that?
(07:13):
And that's when the realityreally set in.
I was in denial for some time,but that was like, ok, my dad is
not doing well and I had tomake the decision even though it
was advised that you stay awayfrom the elders to go visit as
much as I could and just try tomake memories with him.
And I remember talking tosomeone on my podcast about this
(07:37):
and she talked about how, eventhough our loved ones who are
struggling with dementiaAlzheimer's or something like
that, they might not be able toremember the moments, but you
can remember the moments as itrelates to those things that
you're doing with them.
And so I had to really focus inon that, because you know, my
(07:59):
dad might not remember whathappened two minutes ago, but
for us, our family, we weretrying to still create memories
In the present.
My dad could still feel the joy, and so it was a long journey
until his passing.
Michelle (08:15):
I'm so sorry, Jocelyn.
I'm sure that was so hard andmy heart goes out to you and to
anyone who's experienced havingto see a loved one change in
this way and to realize thatthings will most likely not
improve for them.
In fact, I understand they canseem to get better at times and
then decline again, which wouldbe difficult emotionally for the
(08:36):
family right?
Jocelyn (08:38):
Yeah, yeah it was.
My dad was very charismatic andso he knew how to hide
sometimes the fact that he couldhave remember.
Like sometimes people will callhim on the phone and he
wouldn't necessarily remembertheir name, but he'd be like
hello guy, hey, how you doingyou know, playing it off.
And so it was a roller coasterride.
But at the end of the day, it'sthis anticipatory grief that
(09:01):
you experience when you know,okay, time is limited and the
dad that I used to know is nothere, and so accepting my dad
and his current condition wasvery difficult, and so I didn't
realize why I would startbreaking down in tears
consistently at different pointswhile he was still living.
(09:24):
But I was grieving, I wasexperiencing this anticipatory
grief, and it was very difficult.
Michelle (09:31):
Oh, I'm sure.
And yeah, anticipatory grief,that process of actually
mourning the loss of somethingor someone that is still here,
is hard to get our brains around.
So here you are, trying to hangon to all the good memories and
capture any new ones you can.
While he's still with you,knowing that his condition was
(09:53):
worsening, can you talk aboutthose final months of his life
and what losing him was like foryou?
Jocelyn (10:01):
Yeah, and so my dad continued to fall.
His coordination suffered andwhen he fell I think one of the
times in which he had anaccident it led to him getting
an infection and he was taken tothe hospital and they said this
is critical, this is serious,and at that point he really
(10:23):
couldn't talk.
He was in pain and we had ahard time engaging him and my
brother and I were in thehospital and we were trying to
do everything.
We were showing him pictures,we were trying to get him to
watch TV and videos, and nothingreally worked, except my
(10:44):
brother had the best idea to tryto play one of my father's
favorite songs Family Reunion bythe OJs and we played that song
for him and he lit up, hestarted singing.
He wasn't talking to us at allbefore him, but he started
singing the song and the nursescame in the room like Mr Jones
(11:09):
oh, my goodness, look at you.
He started playing that andstarting to play some other
oldies that just resonated withhim and that was a joyful moment
in a very sad time and it justit showed me the power of music
and how we're able to connectwith people through songs,
because that is actually one ofthe last things that we lose in
(11:32):
terms of our memory, and so,again, creating those special
moments.
But fast forward.
You know, after several visitsat a hospital, my dad was
released.
He went to a nursing home and Ithought he was going to recover
.
It was going to be like a longhaul journey.
We visited regularly and ourfamily was all there behind
(11:56):
around him, like right before hepassed like maybe a day, we
missed a day, but we, you knowhis family was consistently
visiting and I just remember mydad.
When I had to leave, I said, dad, I'm going to see you later.
You know he's like you leave it.
I'm like, yeah, dad, but I'llbe back to see you.
And he's like, okay, you know,and that was, that was the last
(12:17):
time.
You know, that was the lasttime I got a chance to see him
and it's.
It's one of those things inwhich, those memories, you just
don't forget the last time andyou don't know when it will be,
and you always kind of wonder,like if I knew it was the last
(12:38):
time, how would I havereprioritized or replayed, or
whatever the case may be.
But at the end of the day, Imiss my dad all the time, but I
feel like his life was so richin my relationship with him.
He knew he was loved by hischildren and his family and I
(12:59):
know where he is in heaven, andso I still reconcile with that.
I still communicate with himall the time and sometimes I
still cry years later.
That grief journey was no joke,which I know we'll talk about,
but that's how he made histransition.
Michelle (13:19):
Well, thanks for sharing all that, and I think it
is.
You talked about makingmemories.
I'm sure that memory of the OJsong is forever burned into your
mind, and that's a beautifulone.
I love that.
Yeah, so I talked in the introabout your background, and you
deal with people that haveexperienced trauma and you help
them process this.
How did you find yourself inthe midst of your grief
(13:42):
following the loss of your dad?
What was your grief like?
Were you able to apply thoselessons that you learned, that
you were trying to help otherpeople get through, or was it?
Oh, no, this is new territory,oh.
Jocelyn (13:54):
Michelle, you're calling me out with this
question, you know, because it'sso easy for you to talk about
things from a textbook lens ortheory, but when you go through
a major loss it's different, andup until that point I had never
experienced a major loss thatwas just so close to me, and so
(14:19):
it was different.
It made me see grief from afresh lens, in terms of
resonating with those who lost aparent.
Now I understand what thislooks like.
For years I dreaded it.
Now it's a reality and I knowthere's other losses that people
experienced for people who wereclose to them.
(14:40):
But I think when I was goingthrough it myself, I did put on
the mask to get through for awhile, because I actually was
encouraged to give my dad'seulogy in which I did and so
when I preached his eulogy, I,for whatever reason, said
(15:03):
Jocelyn, you can't get on thispulpit and cry.
You have to keep it together.
You have to be strong, eventhough I teach against this
right, this idea that you haveto be strong.
But I felt like, if I allowedmyself to show any type of
emotion, that I would not stopcrying, and so I sucked it up.
(15:26):
I don't know how in the world.
I did it, but I gave themessage and it was almost like
out of body, I disassociatedmyself.
It was kind of like I waswatching a movie, because there
was points in which I even usedhumor and stuff to make jokes
and I'm like girl, what in theworld?
You are at your dad's funeral,but I had to detach to get
(15:47):
through the moment.
But here's the thing Delaygrief.
When you carry the grief, thegrief is still there.
And so I was able to do that fora temporary period of time to
get through the service and kindof just get all that stuff done
.
But I remember walking into afamiliar place of mine which I
(16:08):
used to always go to the gym Iused to do CrossFit heavily and
I remember visiting the gymafter being gone for several
months and running into a coachthere and I guess in my mind
something said this is a safeenvironment for me, because as
soon as I walked in the door andthey asked me how I was doing
(16:29):
mind you, this was two daysbefore my dad's birthday the
tears just started erupting,like it was like craziness, I
like a volcano of tears, and Iwas like, oh my goodness, oh my
God.
Okay, all they did was ask howI was doing.
So I had to beeline to thebathroom to try to get myself
(16:50):
together.
What does that mean?
But I'm just wiping all thetears and stuff and I come out
of the bathroom and talk to thecoach and she was like you know,
just give me a hug and tryingto calm me down, and she was
just so gentle and I shared withher that the reason I had such
a response is because I hadrecently lost my dad.
(17:14):
And here's the thing this is howGod is just so good because, to
come to find out, she hadrecently lost her dad too, and
she started sharing about theloss of her father, and in the
conversation she said Jocelyn,you know, the beautiful thing is
that you are able to crybecause my dad this is what she
(17:37):
was saying my dad was my bestfriend and my pain is so great,
but I can't seem to allow myselfto cry.
And so, when she was strugglingand sharing about her grief and
I'm sharing about my grief, itwas such a sacred moment and I
think it just revealed to me,reminded me, the power of being
(17:57):
vulnerable and holding eachother in our pain, and, you know
, just remembering sharing thegood times, sharing the things
that we loved about our fathers.
And so that was one moment inwhich the grief couldn't hold it
back, and there's been manyothers in which there'll be
certain things that remind me ofmy dad, and I just started
(18:18):
crying and I said it's okay,because it's a reflection of the
love that I have for my dad,and so I allow myself to grieve.
It took me a minute, but now Iwelcome the tears as they come.
Michelle (18:34):
Yeah, well, it did take a lot of strength to give
your father's eulogy.
That's a pretty big deal, so Icompletely understand putting on
the mask that day, but I'm soglad that you found that safe
space and safe person at the gymthat you were able to finally
let your guard down and connectwith someone who you found was
also grieving.
So, on that note, let's talkfor a moment about your book
(18:58):
Breaking the Power of the Mask.
And it doesn't only apply togrief.
It applies to shame and a lotof other things that we don't
necessarily want to outwardlydisplay or share with other
people.
But when it comes to grief,tell us why it's not healthy to
hang onto it like that.
Jocelyn (19:16):
Well, isn't that healthy?
Because, first, grief isnatural, it's human, it's
something in which it was nevermeant to be suppressed.
And when we suppress the grief,it's this idea as if, like when
you're playing hide and go seekwith the kid or you like are
like hiding behind the corner,acting like you don't see them,
(19:38):
but they're really there, it'slike.
But the grief is kind of likewe're hiding and pretending it's
not there, but it's still there, even if we pretend.
And at some point it is goingto manifest itself, whether
externally or internally.
And when we have it suppressedinternally, this is when we see
(19:59):
certain diseases that peoplehave, when we see ourselves
struggling and having certainreactions and we don't know why.
Perfect example I wasministering to this young woman
who had lost her brother and shewas talking about how she was
struggling in school toconcentrate and she didn't know
(20:20):
what was going on.
She's having difficulty sleeping, all these things are happening
with her, and she wasn't ableto draw the connection to the
fact that this is grief, thesethings that you're describing.
You've been carrying your griefwith you for months and she just
(20:41):
had been in school and seminaryand working, so in her mind she
didn't have time to grieve, andthat's understandable, because
our society makes us feel thatway.
You gotta go to work, you needto get over it.
And so she was struggling to dowhat she had to do, but the
(21:02):
grief was saying, uh-uh, even ifyou're ignoring me, even if
you're hiding from me, I amstill here, and it showed itself
.
And so eventually, she had tointegrate her grief journey and
allow space for it to beexpressed through counseling,
(21:22):
through talking it out, throughgroups, and there's different
ways to do it.
But at the end of the day toanswer your question, Michelle,
even if we say I'm not going todeal with our grief, our grief
is gonna deal with us, is goingto be there.
So we might as well createspace for us to begin to work
(21:42):
through our grief versuscarrying it.
Carrying it with us, becauseit's still gonna be there.
Michelle (21:48):
Yeah, thank you for that example.
That helps a lot, and it's sotrue that our culture is one
that expects us to snap back andget over it, get back to work,
like you said.
But you're so right, our griefwill catch up with us if we
don't express it somehow.
So back to your book for aminute, because I remember
reading something that jumpedout at me, and it was from a TED
(22:09):
talk that you heard on thistopic, and the speaker was
discussing how, sometimes, whenwe lose a loved one, people will
say I can't imagine what you'regoing through, and when people
said that to me, it made me feelmore isolated.
But you said that the speaker'sresponse was different.
She said well, I think you canand I think you should, because
(22:32):
one day it's going to happen toyou.
So what do you think she meantby that?
Jocelyn (22:36):
I think that she's challenging us to try to
empathize with individuals andnot just say the platitudes, the
cliches.
I think when people say I can'timagine is one of a handful of
responses that we typically hearpeople say.
Because what do I say whensomeone is breathing?
Michelle (22:59):
It's very difficult.
Jocelyn (23:00):
Yeah, it's uncomfortable, so hard you don't
want to be offensive, and so Ican't imagine is a default
response, and I think what shewas trying to say is that, ok,
even if you haven't gone throughthat particular loss at some
point on your journey, even ifit's not that exact scenario,
(23:20):
you are going to experience aearth-shattering response.
And so, instead of sayingsomething that is cliche in
nature, really try to putyourself in that headspace in
terms of what that person mightbe struggling with and try to be
there to hold them in that pain.
(23:41):
And it's really complicatedbecause, again, sometimes you
really can't say anything.
You really aren't supposed tosay anything to take the pain
away because that's what we tryto do when it comes to grief and
loss is take someone's painaway, but you're really taking
away their opportunity to grieve.
Instead, we need to encouragethem to have whatever space and
(24:07):
freedom they need to say whatthey need to say, to feel what
they need to feel and be able tohold them in it, as
uncomfortable as it is and it isuncomfortable to watch someone
that you love to cry, to snot,to yell, all those things, but
they need to, and so it'scounter-cultural not to try to
(24:28):
just put a little band-aid ontop of the situation to stop
them from feeling bad, versusallowing them to embrace it, but
that's actually helping them tobegin their healing process on
their grief journey.
Michelle (24:44):
Yeah, definitely is, and I think, even having had my
own experience that was sodevastating and hearing all
those plodgy, I still, you know,11 years later, find myself in
the position of going hmm, whatdo I say?
What do I say?
I mean, it's just a reallydifficult thing, and I think
you're right.
Empathize with them, putyourself in their shoes and say,
okay, because I haven't lost myparents, I'm blessed that
(25:06):
they're still here with us today.
But when I hear people talkingabout it, I am now trying to
think about wow, you know,that's something that's could be
in the future for me.
That's something that Iactually need to think about in
a way to kind of I don't knowprepare myself or just to
empathize with the people that Ilove that are going through it.
(25:27):
I know we talked a little bitabout this and I really want to
hear your experience and it waskind of selfishly, because we
talked about this thinking, thisfight or flight response to
where, when something badhappens in our lives, a lot of
us tend to feel like we'rewaiting for the other shoe to
drop, like, okay, if thishappened, that anything could
(25:50):
happen.
Did you experience anythinglike that after losing your
father and, if so, how did yourespond to it?
Jocelyn (25:57):
Yeah, so it wasn't necessarily after losing my
father.
The loss of my father changedmy perspective in terms of just
the importance of loving hard.
It was more of a positiveresponse.
When I say love hard, it's likenot taking people in your life
for granted and being with them.
I have my mother still.
(26:18):
I have my father, Jocelyn, makememories with her, so that, I
think, was progressive in nature.
But going back to your questionaround fight and flight or
thinking waiting for the nextshoe to drop, or I think that
that's a response for many of usthat we struggle with when we
go through bad events, eventsthat are traumatic, especially
(26:39):
traumatic losses.
We can struggle with this ideaof oh, I cannot let this happen
to another loved one.
I have to be there.
I wasn't there for this personbefore they died, so I can't let
this happen again.
It's this constant anxietyaround this that can really
cause us to struggle withdepression, with living our
(27:01):
lives with regrets.
I know one individual who I'mclose to lost a loved one and
this was 20, 30 years ago andwasn't able to be there when
they made their transition andstill struggles with that today,
with this regret, and it couldkeep you locked up in this place
(27:23):
and it's really hard to let go.
But we have to realize firstthat that person, when they made
their transition, it's not ourfault.
They know we love them, theyknow it.
I mean now, if you had somecontention before they left,
okay, that you have to releasetoo, like if you were in strife
(27:47):
with them, because we'reimperfect and sometimes we mess
up.
But we can't change the past.
We can't change it as much aswe want to.
We can learn from it and we canalso think about the great
memories with the individualswho we've lost.
But we have to be careful tolook at what happened in the
(28:08):
past, not as this is indicativeof the future, but as a
reference.
And that's very difficultbecause when it comes to grief,
it is tied to our emotions andwhen we're processing things
that are heavy in terms of painand loss, that cognitive, our
(28:28):
brain is not really thinkinglike that.
We're thinking from the heartversus our mind, the logic of it
.
Like we know, it wasn't ourfault that they died, but we
somehow feel that we could havedone something differently.
And so I think, to go back toyour question, just trying to
say, okay, this is what happened, it doesn't mean that this is
(28:50):
going to be what takes place inthe future.
In the present, let me try tolearn from what happened in the
past, but let me try not toallow the past to control me in
the present.
Michelle (29:03):
Yeah, wonderful, thanks for breaking that down.
I think that's very well said,good advice.
So, jocelyn, having experiencedwhat you called the slow kiss
goodbye with your dad, you wentthrough a lot of tough emotional
stuff, but you certainlyacquired some wisdom along the
way.
You told us how important it isto make memories with our loved
(29:26):
ones while they're still hereand how music can be so powerful
to people with cognitive loss.
You shared about the long hauljourney of walking beside
someone with dementia and howit's normal and natural to
experience a kind ofanticipatory grief.
You said that, even though youhad counseled other grievers in
(29:46):
the past, that your personalexperience with your own loss
helped you understand theprocess in a deeper way.
You acknowledged your innerstruggle with processing your
emotions.
That admitted to putting on amask to get through the early
phase, but you pointed out thenegative effects of delayed
grief on our minds and bodiesand encouraged us to let it out.
(30:07):
You told us that whenwell-intentioned people try to
take our grief away, they are inreality taking away our
opportunity to grieve, which isso important for our healing.
You told us not to hold on toregret, to learn from the past
and to just let the tears flowwhen they come.
Jocelyn, what other lessonshave you learned from your
(30:31):
experience?
Can you share with someonelistening who needs hope right
now?
Jocelyn (30:35):
Yeah, I think that the first thing I want to mention is
that grief is a uniqueindividual journey that is messy
.
There is no right or wrong whenit comes to your process, and
people will give you advice andthey will do the best they can.
(30:56):
But at the end of the day,that's the amount of time you
need, what you need to do foryourself to heal.
That is unique, and so Iencourage you to take your time
with your journey of grief.
Don't feel pressured as much associety tries to do that.
(31:19):
But I also think it's soimportant for you to find
community.
I want you to think about whatresources might be out there,
whether it's this podcast,whether it is your church
community, whether it's a friend, and also, when it comes to
friends, a friend who's a goodlistener, because sometimes you
(31:41):
just need space, sometimes youjust need a hug, sometimes you
just need to be on someone'scouch where you can cry.
But at the end of the day, don'trun from your grief.
It's a reflection of the value,the love that you had for
whatever you had lost.
It's natural, and we need tojourney along with this because
(32:06):
it's a part of our process, it'sa part of our life and in fact,
god will never leave you orforsake you, and he is close to
the broken hearted.
He is so close to the brokenhearted and I felt God's comfort
, especially in those moments inthe middle of the night when
(32:28):
you were like staring at theceiling and you feel like this
pain in your heart that's sodeep that there are really no
words to describe.
Only tears can somewhat reflectwhat you are feeling inside.
No human can fully hold thatpain, but God can, and so in
(32:51):
those moments that's where Ifound comfort, knowing that God
was with me in it.
He knows what it's like to feellost with the sun on the cross,
and he's going to hold me, he'sgoing to get me through this,
and so hopefully that encouragessomebody.
Michelle (33:12):
Well, I know it will, and thank you for those great
lessons.
It's so hard to lose someone welove and when we're in the pit
sort of feeling the heaviness ofour grief, it's hard to imagine
that good can emerge from itall.
But it has in your life, and Iso appreciate you sharing it all
with us today.
Well, reverend Jocelyn, I willput a link to your website in
(33:33):
the show notes so that listenerscan go there and learn more
about what you do and get a copyof Breaking the Power of the
Mask or one of your other books.
And I have to say it was apleasure talking to you today.
Thank you for agreeing to comeon the show and be my guest,
thank you.
Thank you so much for having me, michelle.
So, for those of you listening,if you're in the midst of a
(33:55):
struggle like this with yourloved one, my heart goes out to
you.
Life can be so hard sometimesand losing someone we love
deeply can hurt to the core andgrieving while they are still
here is such a complicatedconcept.
But I hope you're encouragedtoday by Jocelyn's words.
(34:16):
She's a strong, determined andresilient woman who was still
rattled to the core when shelost her dad.
It's normal and natural to feelpain, but please don't run from
your grief.
Like she said, find community,seek out a trusted friend and
remember God as you're walkingthrough this.
(34:37):
He's near to the brokenheartedand he wants you to lean on Him.
Thanks for listening.
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Grief is the natural result ofloss.
We'll all experience grief atsome point in our lives, but
(00:32):
most people don't want to talkabout it or think about it in
advance.
When we find ourselves in thatplace, we'll have no choice but
to process those emotions.
But what will that look likefor us?
Well, most of us don't know,because we don't want to talk
about it or think about it inadvance.
But if you're listening today,you have most likely experienced
(00:54):
a loss and your grief might beoverwhelming you.
You might feel stuck or youmight feel angry.
You might not feel like otherpeople can relate to what you're
going through, because whathappened to you hasn't happened
to them and maybe you don't wantto burden them with your sorrow
.
So what do you do?
(01:15):
Well, some people make aneffort to hide their emotions.
They keep themselves busy withthe things of life and project a
sense of confidence and controlto those around them.
They put on an outwardappearance, a mask, so others
won't know how they feel inside.
Well, my guest today fullyunderstands the concept of
(01:39):
hiding behind a mask, as well asthe freedom that comes from
removing it.
She has a diverse backgroundthat affords her both personal
and professional experience onthis and other topics related to
grief and loss.
She earned her BA in journalismfrom the University of Iowa,
then accepted a position in thetelevision industry.
(02:00):
She eventually left TV to serveas executive director of a
youth center on Chicago's SouthSide, and while there she earned
her master's degree in socialwork from the University of
Chicago and then a master's intheological studies from
McCormick Theological Seminary.
Today she's an ordainedminister and the founder of
(02:21):
Faith on the Journey Counseling.
She's the author of the bookBreaking the Power of the Mask
and a master facilitator withthe Trauma Healing Institute.
Her name is Jocelyn Jones, andit's my great honor and
privilege to have her as myguest on the show today.
Welcome to qualified ReverendJocelyn.
Thank you.
Jocelyn (02:42):
Thank you, Michelle, so much for having me, of course.
Michelle (02:47):
Well, we started off by talking about how people
choose to process adversity andgrief, and you told me you had
your own unique experience whenyou lost your dad just a few
years ago.
Can you begin by telling us alittle about your dad and the
impact of his illness on hislife and yours, and then how his
(03:09):
passing impacted you?
Jocelyn (03:11):
Well, Michelle, I like to describe my dad's passing as
the slow kiss g oodbye.
M y dad, who was a superhero tome was a 10th degree black belt
and so he was well recognizedin the community, especially in
the African American community,and he was a constant, very
supportive, even though heworked a lot.
He was there and he was alwaysknown for being extremely sharp.
(03:36):
When he retired, they replacedhim with three people in his
corporate position, and so thatman was holding it down right.
He actually retired because henoticed that he was having
difficulty remembering things,going from someone who balanced
his checkbook down to the pennyand would call the bill people
(03:59):
when they were off, by somecents that type of sharp, to
having difficulties with thingsthat normally wouldn't be a
challenge for him.
And so he decided to retire andstill went on to do incredible
things like write a book, and hechallenged himself completely
with that type of drivenindividual.
(04:19):
But my brother and I noticedthat there were certain things
that he struggled with.
We would tell him like, hey,dad, this is how you use the
computer or this is how you usethis program, and we would have
to repeat ourselves, and wedidn't realize that my dad was
actually struggling withcognitive disorder, which
(04:41):
eventually developed into a mildcognitive disorder, and that
was a mild version of dementia,like a precursor, if you will,
to all timers.
Michelle (04:54):
Well, I can see why you referred to him as your
superhero.
He was a man of many gifts andtalents for sure, and I know you
adored him and looked up to himand I'm sure it was so
difficult for you to see adecline in his cognitive ability
.
You said the doctors called ita mild cognitive disorder and
(05:16):
then he was eventually diagnosedwith Alzheimer's.
Can you talk about that time,those next several years, and
how you felt about seeing thesechanges in your dad?
Jocelyn (05:28):
When he first got that diagnosis, we were really
concerned.
Obviously, we're trying to lookinto different natural ways to
help him to combat this illness,but unfortunately, things got
progressively worse and fastforward to 2020, we remember
(05:48):
2020 being a year that was justout of control, with the
pandemic and everything.
At this time, my dad was in hislast years.
I didn't realize it at the time, but it was so difficult
because I could not visit himbecause of you know, the staying
shut-in rules and everything,and so during that period he was
(06:12):
declining and it was a strugglefor him, first of all, because
my dad was an extrovert.
So you're keeping him inside.
Oh yeah, we had to take awayhis car keys because he couldn't
.
It wasn't safe for him to drive.
He was trying to break into thecar.
It was one time in which heliterally broke in and drove
down the street.
(06:32):
It was a whole situation right,so aggraved, but for him he was
struggling with the loss of hisindependence and telling him he
needed to stay indoors and alsoI mean accepting that reality
was challenging.
But I remember talking to himover the phone during the
(06:52):
pandemic and he sounded like hewas drunk.
He couldn't put words togetherand when I got off the phone
with him, I actually rushed theconversation because I got
overwhelmed with emotion.
I just broke down in tearsBecause I was like, oh my god,
what was that?
(07:13):
And that's when the realityreally set in.
I was in denial for some time,but that was like, ok, my dad is
not doing well and I had tomake the decision even though it
was advised that you stay awayfrom the elders to go visit as
much as I could and just try tomake memories with him.
And I remember talking tosomeone on my podcast about this
(07:37):
and she talked about how, eventhough our loved ones who are
struggling with dementiaAlzheimer's or something like
that, they might not be able toremember the moments, but you
can remember the moments as itrelates to those things that
you're doing with them.
And so I had to really focus inon that, because you know, my
(07:59):
dad might not remember whathappened two minutes ago, but
for us, our family, we weretrying to still create memories
In the present.
My dad could still feel the joy, and so it was a long journey
until his passing.
Michelle (08:15):
I'm so sorry, Jocelyn.
I'm sure that was so hard andmy heart goes out to you and to
anyone who's experienced havingto see a loved one change in
this way and to realize thatthings will most likely not
improve for them.
In fact, I understand they canseem to get better at times and
then decline again, which wouldbe difficult emotionally for the
(08:36):
family right?
Jocelyn (08:38):
Yeah, yeah it was.
My dad was very charismatic andso he knew how to hide
sometimes the fact that he couldhave remember.
Like sometimes people will callhim on the phone and he
wouldn't necessarily remembertheir name, but he'd be like
hello guy, hey, how you doingyou know, playing it off.
And so it was a roller coasterride.
But at the end of the day, it'sthis anticipatory grief that
(09:01):
you experience when you know,okay, time is limited and the
dad that I used to know is nothere, and so accepting my dad
and his current condition wasvery difficult, and so I didn't
realize why I would startbreaking down in tears
consistently at different pointswhile he was still living.
(09:24):
But I was grieving, I wasexperiencing this anticipatory
grief, and it was very difficult.
Michelle (09:31):
Oh, I'm sure.
And yeah, anticipatory grief,that process of actually
mourning the loss of somethingor someone that is still here,
is hard to get our brains around.
So here you are, trying to hangon to all the good memories and
capture any new ones you can.
While he's still with you,knowing that his condition was
(09:53):
worsening, can you talk aboutthose final months of his life
and what losing him was like foryou?
Jocelyn (10:01):
Yeah, and so my dad continued to fall.
His coordination suffered andwhen he fell I think one of the
times in which he had anaccident it led to him getting
an infection and he was taken tothe hospital and they said this
is critical, this is serious,and at that point he really
(10:23):
couldn't talk.
He was in pain and we had ahard time engaging him and my
brother and I were in thehospital and we were trying to
do everything.
We were showing him pictures,we were trying to get him to
watch TV and videos, and nothingreally worked, except my
(10:44):
brother had the best idea to tryto play one of my father's
favorite songs Family Reunion bythe OJs and we played that song
for him and he lit up, hestarted singing.
He wasn't talking to us at allbefore him, but he started
singing the song and the nursescame in the room like Mr Jones
(11:09):
oh, my goodness, look at you.
He started playing that andstarting to play some other
oldies that just resonated withhim and that was a joyful moment
in a very sad time and it justit showed me the power of music
and how we're able to connectwith people through songs,
because that is actually one ofthe last things that we lose in
(11:32):
terms of our memory, and so,again, creating those special
moments.
But fast forward.
You know, after several visitsat a hospital, my dad was
released.
He went to a nursing home and Ithought he was going to recover
.
It was going to be like a longhaul journey.
We visited regularly and ourfamily was all there behind
(11:56):
around him, like right before hepassed like maybe a day, we
missed a day, but we, you knowhis family was consistently
visiting and I just remember mydad.
When I had to leave, I said, dad, I'm going to see you later.
You know he's like you leave it.
I'm like, yeah, dad, but I'llbe back to see you.
And he's like, okay, you know,and that was, that was the last
(12:17):
time.
You know, that was the lasttime I got a chance to see him
and it's.
It's one of those things inwhich, those memories, you just
don't forget the last time andyou don't know when it will be,
and you always kind of wonder,like if I knew it was the last
(12:38):
time, how would I havereprioritized or replayed, or
whatever the case may be.
But at the end of the day, Imiss my dad all the time, but I
feel like his life was so richin my relationship with him.
He knew he was loved by hischildren and his family and I
(12:59):
know where he is in heaven, andso I still reconcile with that.
I still communicate with himall the time and sometimes I
still cry years later.
That grief journey was no joke,which I know we'll talk about,
but that's how he made histransition.
Michelle (13:19):
Well, thanks for sharing all that, and I think it
is.
You talked about makingmemories.
I'm sure that memory of the OJsong is forever burned into your
mind, and that's a beautifulone.
I love that.
Yeah, so I talked in the introabout your background, and you
deal with people that haveexperienced trauma and you help
them process this.
How did you find yourself inthe midst of your grief
(13:42):
following the loss of your dad?
What was your grief like?
Were you able to apply thoselessons that you learned, that
you were trying to help otherpeople get through, or was it?
Oh, no, this is new territory,oh.
Jocelyn (13:54):
Michelle, you're calling me out with this
question, you know, because it'sso easy for you to talk about
things from a textbook lens ortheory, but when you go through
a major loss it's different, andup until that point I had never
experienced a major loss thatwas just so close to me, and so
(14:19):
it was different.
It made me see grief from afresh lens, in terms of
resonating with those who lost aparent.
Now I understand what thislooks like.
For years I dreaded it.
Now it's a reality and I knowthere's other losses that people
experienced for people who wereclose to them.
(14:40):
But I think when I was goingthrough it myself, I did put on
the mask to get through for awhile, because I actually was
encouraged to give my dad'seulogy in which I did and so
when I preached his eulogy, I,for whatever reason, said
(15:03):
Jocelyn, you can't get on thispulpit and cry.
You have to keep it together.
You have to be strong, eventhough I teach against this
right, this idea that you haveto be strong.
But I felt like, if I allowedmyself to show any type of
emotion, that I would not stopcrying, and so I sucked it up.
(15:26):
I don't know how in the world.
I did it, but I gave themessage and it was almost like
out of body, I disassociatedmyself.
It was kind of like I waswatching a movie, because there
was points in which I even usedhumor and stuff to make jokes
and I'm like girl, what in theworld?
You are at your dad's funeral,but I had to detach to get
(15:47):
through the moment.
But here's the thing Delaygrief.
When you carry the grief, thegrief is still there.
And so I was able to do that fora temporary period of time to
get through the service and kindof just get all that stuff done
.
But I remember walking into afamiliar place of mine which I
(16:08):
used to always go to the gym Iused to do CrossFit heavily and
I remember visiting the gymafter being gone for several
months and running into a coachthere and I guess in my mind
something said this is a safeenvironment for me, because as
soon as I walked in the door andthey asked me how I was doing
(16:29):
mind you, this was two daysbefore my dad's birthday the
tears just started erupting,like it was like craziness, I
like a volcano of tears, and Iwas like, oh my goodness, oh my
God.
Okay, all they did was ask howI was doing.
So I had to beeline to thebathroom to try to get myself
(16:50):
together.
What does that mean?
But I'm just wiping all thetears and stuff and I come out
of the bathroom and talk to thecoach and she was like you know,
just give me a hug and tryingto calm me down, and she was
just so gentle and I shared withher that the reason I had such
a response is because I hadrecently lost my dad.
(17:14):
And here's the thing this is howGod is just so good because, to
come to find out, she hadrecently lost her dad too, and
she started sharing about theloss of her father, and in the
conversation she said Jocelyn,you know, the beautiful thing is
that you are able to crybecause my dad this is what she
(17:37):
was saying my dad was my bestfriend and my pain is so great,
but I can't seem to allow myselfto cry.
And so, when she was strugglingand sharing about her grief and
I'm sharing about my grief, itwas such a sacred moment and I
think it just revealed to me,reminded me, the power of being
(17:57):
vulnerable and holding eachother in our pain, and, you know
, just remembering sharing thegood times, sharing the things
that we loved about our fathers.
And so that was one moment inwhich the grief couldn't hold it
back, and there's been manyothers in which there'll be
certain things that remind me ofmy dad, and I just started
(18:18):
crying and I said it's okay,because it's a reflection of the
love that I have for my dad,and so I allow myself to grieve.
It took me a minute, but now Iwelcome the tears as they come.
Michelle (18:34):
Yeah, well, it did take a lot of strength to give
your father's eulogy.
That's a pretty big deal, so Icompletely understand putting on
the mask that day, but I'm soglad that you found that safe
space and safe person at the gymthat you were able to finally
let your guard down and connectwith someone who you found was
also grieving.
So, on that note, let's talkfor a moment about your book
(18:58):
Breaking the Power of the Mask.
And it doesn't only apply togrief.
It applies to shame and a lotof other things that we don't
necessarily want to outwardlydisplay or share with other
people.
But when it comes to grief,tell us why it's not healthy to
hang onto it like that.
Jocelyn (19:16):
Well, isn't that healthy?
Because, first, grief isnatural, it's human, it's
something in which it was nevermeant to be suppressed.
And when we suppress the grief,it's this idea as if, like when
you're playing hide and go seekwith the kid or you like are
like hiding behind the corner,acting like you don't see them,
(19:38):
but they're really there, it'slike.
But the grief is kind of likewe're hiding and pretending it's
not there, but it's still there, even if we pretend.
And at some point it is goingto manifest itself, whether
externally or internally.
And when we have it suppressedinternally, this is when we see
(19:59):
certain diseases that peoplehave, when we see ourselves
struggling and having certainreactions and we don't know why.
Perfect example I wasministering to this young woman
who had lost her brother and shewas talking about how she was
struggling in school toconcentrate and she didn't know
(20:20):
what was going on.
She's having difficulty sleeping, all these things are happening
with her, and she wasn't ableto draw the connection to the
fact that this is grief, thesethings that you're describing.
You've been carrying your griefwith you for months and she just
(20:41):
had been in school and seminaryand working, so in her mind she
didn't have time to grieve, andthat's understandable, because
our society makes us feel thatway.
You gotta go to work, you needto get over it.
And so she was struggling to dowhat she had to do, but the
(21:02):
grief was saying, uh-uh, even ifyou're ignoring me, even if
you're hiding from me, I amstill here, and it showed itself
.
And so eventually, she had tointegrate her grief journey and
allow space for it to beexpressed through counseling,
(21:22):
through talking it out, throughgroups, and there's different
ways to do it.
But at the end of the day toanswer your question, Michelle,
even if we say I'm not going todeal with our grief, our grief
is gonna deal with us, is goingto be there.
So we might as well createspace for us to begin to work
(21:42):
through our grief versuscarrying it.
Carrying it with us, becauseit's still gonna be there.
Michelle (21:48):
Yeah, thank you for that example.
That helps a lot, and it's sotrue that our culture is one
that expects us to snap back andget over it, get back to work,
like you said.
But you're so right, our griefwill catch up with us if we
don't express it somehow.
So back to your book for aminute, because I remember
reading something that jumpedout at me, and it was from a TED
(22:09):
talk that you heard on thistopic, and the speaker was
discussing how, sometimes, whenwe lose a loved one, people will
say I can't imagine what you'regoing through, and when people
said that to me, it made me feelmore isolated.
But you said that the speaker'sresponse was different.
She said well, I think you canand I think you should, because
(22:32):
one day it's going to happen toyou.
So what do you think she meantby that?
Jocelyn (22:36):
I think that she's challenging us to try to
empathize with individuals andnot just say the platitudes, the
cliches.
I think when people say I can'timagine is one of a handful of
responses that we typically hearpeople say.
Because what do I say whensomeone is breathing?
Michelle (22:59):
It's very difficult.
Jocelyn (23:00):
Yeah, it's uncomfortable, so hard you don't
want to be offensive, and so Ican't imagine is a default
response, and I think what shewas trying to say is that, ok,
even if you haven't gone throughthat particular loss at some
point on your journey, even ifit's not that exact scenario,
(23:20):
you are going to experience aearth-shattering response.
And so, instead of sayingsomething that is cliche in
nature, really try to putyourself in that headspace in
terms of what that person mightbe struggling with and try to be
there to hold them in that pain.
(23:41):
And it's really complicatedbecause, again, sometimes you
really can't say anything.
You really aren't supposed tosay anything to take the pain
away because that's what we tryto do when it comes to grief and
loss is take someone's painaway, but you're really taking
away their opportunity to grieve.
Instead, we need to encouragethem to have whatever space and
(24:07):
freedom they need to say whatthey need to say, to feel what
they need to feel and be able tohold them in it, as
uncomfortable as it is and it isuncomfortable to watch someone
that you love to cry, to snot,to yell, all those things, but
they need to, and so it'scounter-cultural not to try to
(24:28):
just put a little band-aid ontop of the situation to stop
them from feeling bad, versusallowing them to embrace it, but
that's actually helping them tobegin their healing process on
their grief journey.
Michelle (24:44):
Yeah, definitely is, and I think, even having had my
own experience that was sodevastating and hearing all
those plodgy, I still, you know,11 years later, find myself in
the position of going hmm, whatdo I say?
What do I say?
I mean, it's just a reallydifficult thing, and I think
you're right.
Empathize with them, putyourself in their shoes and say,
okay, because I haven't lost myparents, I'm blessed that
(25:06):
they're still here with us today.
But when I hear people talkingabout it, I am now trying to
think about wow, you know,that's something that's could be
in the future for me.
That's something that Iactually need to think about in
a way to kind of I don't knowprepare myself or just to
empathize with the people that Ilove that are going through it.
(25:27):
I know we talked a little bitabout this and I really want to
hear your experience and it waskind of selfishly, because we
talked about this thinking, thisfight or flight response to
where, when something badhappens in our lives, a lot of
us tend to feel like we'rewaiting for the other shoe to
drop, like, okay, if thishappened, that anything could
(25:50):
happen.
Did you experience anythinglike that after losing your
father and, if so, how did yourespond to it?
Jocelyn (25:57):
Yeah, so it wasn't necessarily after losing my
father.
The loss of my father changedmy perspective in terms of just
the importance of loving hard.
It was more of a positiveresponse.
When I say love hard, it's likenot taking people in your life
for granted and being with them.
I have my mother still.
(26:18):
I have my father, Jocelyn, makememories with her, so that, I
think, was progressive in nature.
But going back to your questionaround fight and flight or
thinking waiting for the nextshoe to drop, or I think that
that's a response for many of usthat we struggle with when we
go through bad events, eventsthat are traumatic, especially
(26:39):
traumatic losses.
We can struggle with this ideaof oh, I cannot let this happen
to another loved one.
I have to be there.
I wasn't there for this personbefore they died, so I can't let
this happen again.
It's this constant anxietyaround this that can really
cause us to struggle withdepression, with living our
(27:01):
lives with regrets.
I know one individual who I'mclose to lost a loved one and
this was 20, 30 years ago andwasn't able to be there when
they made their transition andstill struggles with that today,
with this regret, and it couldkeep you locked up in this place
(27:23):
and it's really hard to let go.
But we have to realize firstthat that person, when they made
their transition, it's not ourfault.
They know we love them, theyknow it.
I mean now, if you had somecontention before they left,
okay, that you have to releasetoo, like if you were in strife
(27:47):
with them, because we'reimperfect and sometimes we mess
up.
But we can't change the past.
We can't change it as much aswe want to.
We can learn from it and we canalso think about the great
memories with the individualswho we've lost.
But we have to be careful tolook at what happened in the
(28:08):
past, not as this is indicativeof the future, but as a
reference.
And that's very difficultbecause when it comes to grief,
it is tied to our emotions andwhen we're processing things
that are heavy in terms of painand loss, that cognitive, our
(28:28):
brain is not really thinkinglike that.
We're thinking from the heartversus our mind, the logic of it
.
Like we know, it wasn't ourfault that they died, but we
somehow feel that we could havedone something differently.
And so I think, to go back toyour question, just trying to
say, okay, this is what happened, it doesn't mean that this is
(28:50):
going to be what takes place inthe future.
In the present, let me try tolearn from what happened in the
past, but let me try not toallow the past to control me in
the present.
Michelle (29:03):
Yeah, wonderful, thanks for breaking that down.
I think that's very well said,good advice.
So, jocelyn, having experiencedwhat you called the slow kiss
goodbye with your dad, you wentthrough a lot of tough emotional
stuff, but you certainlyacquired some wisdom along the
way.
You told us how important it isto make memories with our loved
(29:26):
ones while they're still hereand how music can be so powerful
to people with cognitive loss.
You shared about the long hauljourney of walking beside
someone with dementia and howit's normal and natural to
experience a kind ofanticipatory grief.
You said that, even though youhad counseled other grievers in
(29:46):
the past, that your personalexperience with your own loss
helped you understand theprocess in a deeper way.
You acknowledged your innerstruggle with processing your
emotions.
That admitted to putting on amask to get through the early
phase, but you pointed out thenegative effects of delayed
grief on our minds and bodiesand encouraged us to let it out.
(30:07):
You told us that whenwell-intentioned people try to
take our grief away, they are inreality taking away our
opportunity to grieve, which isso important for our healing.
You told us not to hold on toregret, to learn from the past
and to just let the tears flowwhen they come.
Jocelyn, what other lessonshave you learned from your
(30:31):
experience?
Can you share with someonelistening who needs hope right
now?
Jocelyn (30:35):
Yeah, I think that the first thing I want to mention is
that grief is a uniqueindividual journey that is messy
.
There is no right or wrong whenit comes to your process, and
people will give you advice andthey will do the best they can.
(30:56):
But at the end of the day,that's the amount of time you
need, what you need to do foryourself to heal.
That is unique, and so Iencourage you to take your time
with your journey of grief.
Don't feel pressured as much associety tries to do that.
(31:19):
But I also think it's soimportant for you to find
community.
I want you to think about whatresources might be out there,
whether it's this podcast,whether it is your church
community, whether it's a friend, and also, when it comes to
friends, a friend who's a goodlistener, because sometimes you
(31:41):
just need space, sometimes youjust need a hug, sometimes you
just need to be on someone'scouch where you can cry.
But at the end of the day, don'trun from your grief.
It's a reflection of the value,the love that you had for
whatever you had lost.
It's natural, and we need tojourney along with this because
(32:06):
it's a part of our process, it'sa part of our life and in fact,
god will never leave you orforsake you, and he is close to
the broken hearted.
He is so close to the brokenhearted and I felt God's comfort
, especially in those moments inthe middle of the night when
(32:28):
you were like staring at theceiling and you feel like this
pain in your heart that's sodeep that there are really no
words to describe.
Only tears can somewhat reflectwhat you are feeling inside.
No human can fully hold thatpain, but God can, and so in
(32:51):
those moments that's where Ifound comfort, knowing that God
was with me in it.
He knows what it's like to feellost with the sun on the cross,
and he's going to hold me, he'sgoing to get me through this,
and so hopefully that encouragessomebody.
Michelle (33:12):
Well, I know it will, and thank you for those great
lessons.
It's so hard to lose someone welove and when we're in the pit
sort of feeling the heaviness ofour grief, it's hard to imagine
that good can emerge from itall.
But it has in your life, and Iso appreciate you sharing it all
with us today.
Well, reverend Jocelyn, I willput a link to your website in
(33:33):
the show notes so that listenerscan go there and learn more
about what you do and get a copyof Breaking the Power of the
Mask or one of your other books.
And I have to say it was apleasure talking to you today.
Thank you for agreeing to comeon the show and be my guest,
thank you.
Thank you so much for having me, michelle.
So, for those of you listening,if you're in the midst of a
(33:55):
struggle like this with yourloved one, my heart goes out to
you.
Life can be so hard sometimesand losing someone we love
deeply can hurt to the core andgrieving while they are still
here is such a complicatedconcept.
But I hope you're encouragedtoday by Jocelyn's words.
(34:16):
She's a strong, determined andresilient woman who was still
rattled to the core when shelost her dad.
It's normal and natural to feelpain, but please don't run from
your grief.
Like she said, find community,seek out a trusted friend and
remember God as you're walkingthrough this.
(34:37):
He's near to the brokenheartedand he wants you to lean on Him.
Thanks for listening.
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