August 23, 2024 • 32 mins
After the loss of two children through miscarriage and stillbirth, Bridgett’s hopes were shattered. When a divorce, the death of a family member and other losses followed, she became depressed and began to experience health issues because of her deep grief.
Join me as I talk with Bridgett Dunbar, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and author of the book, Grief, Loss and the Goodness of God, A Path to Healing after the Death of a Child. In our conversation Bridgett shares not only her most vulnerable emotions about her grief and loss, but also the profound insights she gained into the purpose of pain. She explains her belief that pain is not only temporary in this life, but necessary to make you the person you were destined to be.
Download Bridgett's FREE book here:
https://bridgettdunbar.com/grief
Order on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CYXG6NF6?ref_=pe_93986420_774957520
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:09):
Well, hey, everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Finding out you're pregnant,going to your first ultrasound
appointment, feeling themovement of your child inside
(00:30):
you - these are the days amother will always remember and
cherish, and the excitement ofbringing a new life into this
world is such an overwhelminggift and a privilege and a joy,
and the emotions that weexperience as soon-to-be moms
are so powerful they're evenhard to describe.
So how do you process the words"your pregnancy is not viable,
(00:55):
or we don't detect a heartbeat,or your baby is dead?
Well, my guest today had tohear and process those words not
once, but twice over the lastseveral years, when she
experienced the loss of twochildren through miscarriage and
stillbirth.
In addition to being acourageous overcomer, she's also
(01:15):
a mental health breakthroughstrategist and has been a
licensed marriage and familytherapist for more than a decade
.
She's the author of the bookGrief, loss and the Goodness of
God, and she's dedicated herselfto helping individuals improve
their mental and spiritualhealth and find their way back
to joy and peace after loss.
Her name is Bridgett Dunbar andit's my pleasure to have her as
(01:37):
my guest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified Bridgett.
Bridgett (01:41):
Thank you so much.
I am so honored to be here
Michelle (01:49):
Thank you, well, let's get into it.
As I said, you had toexperience the horrific pain of
a miscarriage of your firstchild and then the stillbirth of
your second and, as you and Iboth know, there's no worse
words than your child is nolonger living.
Can you tell us about thecircumstances surrounding that
time in your life and all theemotions that you experienced
(02:10):
following both of thesetraumatic events?
Bridgett (02:13):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know it's interestingbecause you know you ask
children kind of at a young agelike what do you want to be when
you grow up?
And we have all of thesegrandiose ideas of of being
whatever we, we think we can be.
And I remember from a young ageI always wanted to be a mom.
Like I always said, I want tobe a mother.
(02:34):
Um, I don't know if that's justbecause I had a really active
mother in my life and I just sawit as something really amazing,
but either way, when I firstgot pregnant, I can't really,
you know, even explain theemotions that went through me as
just the reality hit me I'mgoing to be a mom.
And what happened was, you know,I was not expecting anything to
(03:02):
come like anything tragic tocome from that news and you know
, like most people, we aren't.
And so when I got pregnant thefirst time, I actually remember
my mom went out and bought me abunch of like pregnancy clothes,
like we were just so excitedfor this baby, right, like any,
like anyone would be.
But what happened was Iactually had some cramping, went
(03:26):
to my doctor and they kind ofdid some tests on me, sent me
home and I got an email thatsaid you know, expect to expect
to miscarry.
You know, your, your, yourpregnancy's not viable, like it
was so shocking to me that Ireally just didn't even know how
(03:47):
to wrap my mind around that thefirst time and so that was my
experience I had an early termmiscarriage the first time I got
pregnant and it really kind offlipped my world around.
I just was not expecting thator in the way that it was
delivered to it was really justhard to understand why that
(04:08):
happened or what happened.
And so, you know, for mefortunately, I did get pregnant
shortly thereafter.
Uh, you know, I know thatdoesn't always happen with with
everyone, but for me I saw it aslike this, this wonderful
surprise, and and then I carriedthat child to 35 weeks and I
(04:35):
went into preterm labor and wentto the hospital and they told
me they couldn't find theheartbeat.
And at the time I had a lot ofdoctors, nurses, kind of, you
know, checking me, telling medifferent things.
Oh, you know, sometimes thishappens, don't worry about it
Until finally one of the nurseshad to tell me no, your child is
(04:56):
dead.
Like we can't find theheartbeat means that your child
is no longer living and you willbe giving birth to a stillborn
child, and so at that point I um, I mean my when I say like I
just my whole world fell apart.
It just felt like my whole worldfell apart and that unraveled a
(05:19):
whole grief journey for me.
But in that moment it's likeyou know, when you think the
promise is there and thatblessing is there.
Whatever, you know that thatexcitement the second time, and
then for that to happen, it wasreally, it was really tragic for
me to go through.
Michelle (05:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thanks for sharing thatand again I am so sorry to hear
that and I know that newsmust've, just, like you said,
unraveled you, especially at 35weeks you know so far along and
loving your baby already andintimately attaching to him.
So I'm very sorry, Bridgett,Thank you and you know, I read
(05:57):
your book and you laid it outjust like that in the book and
described that, but then youalso got into, I think, what you
called the death of yourmarriage, like in one year later
, less than a year later.
Can you talk about how thiskind of secondary loss impacted
you and then what realizationsyou came to at that point in
(06:18):
your life?
Bridgett (06:20):
Yeah, you know.
So it's interesting becauseduring that time in my life I
actually experienced a lot oflosses.
So you know, I had a familymember that had passed away just
a month prior to us losing ourson at birth.
Following that, I was workingin a church with my husband.
We were pastors and we couldn'tcarry on that ministry and so
(06:40):
in that we've also kind of lostour job and the community that
was there.
And you know, I had, I had,another family member who got
really sick.
We thought we were going tolose him, and so you know, there
was a lot going on, a lot oflosses and, to your point, a
year after our son had passed, II lost my marriage as well, and
(07:02):
I would say it's the worstfeeling to lose your child.
I mean, there's really no wordsaround that and those who know
just know.
But for me to have lost mymarriage and someone that I had
bonded with for so long, it feltlike I lost my best friend as
(07:24):
well, and that was a wholedifferent type of loss that I
actually refer to as a livingdeath.
And so you know, it felt likethis person is still alive, but
yet they're dead in my life, andso that was a whole different
type of grief, honestly, that Iwasn't prepared for and I didn't
(07:44):
know how to really navigate.
And so you know, I would say atthat point I was already pretty
depressed, but I wouldn't evenI would say I went into a deep
depression after that.
I really had a hard timefunctioning, really knowing what
life looked like.
You know, you build kind ofyour life with, with another or
(08:06):
even just with anyone, like youknow, even if you're having a
child, you build your life withthese plans and hopes and dreams
and this future that you areseeing, you're working towards,
and then when all of that comescrashing down, it really kind of
levels out your life to a pointwhere you're you kind of look
at life and you just say what,what is life now Like?
(08:27):
What is, what do I do now?
How do I, how do I pick myselfup and keep going forward?
Do I mean, like it?
There's so many kind ofuncertainties that we start to
process through it.
At least I didn't, and it and ittook me on a self-exploration
journey, like I startedexploring.
Well, who am I outside ofmotherhood?
(08:49):
Who am I outside of being awife?
Who am I outside of being, youknow, in church, leadership or
in this role or whatever it isLike.
And so I started really askingmyself.
I kind of went back to thefundamentals of who am I, what
do I want, where am I going?
What does life look like now?
(09:10):
What do I want out of life?
And although it was a greatplace I look back, and that was
such a gifted time in my life tobe able to ask those questions,
at the time, it felt very, Ifelt very lost, I felt very
alone and it took me on ajourney of really exploring who
am I now at this point?
Michelle (09:33):
Yeah Well, I think that's a good place to be in
some respects, and I can relateabsolutely to what you said
about that.
It's like you lose a sense ofidentity in those roles mother,
wife, you know and then you haveto figure all that out.
I experienced that as well whenI lost my son.
It's like I'm not a motheranymore, you know.
(09:53):
And then the depression andanxiety like you talked about,
those things are very real and Iknow a lot of listeners are
probably feeling like they canrelate to that.
So I wanted to talk about thethings you say in your book that
I found really valuable, and itwas in chapter 12, where you
talk about how our bodies alsogrieve the losses.
And you said that you beganlosing your hair and your hair
(10:16):
was coming out.
You were depressed and you saidour bodies know there's been a
loss of some great magnitude.
It's felt in every part of ourcellular DNA.
So can you break that down forus, because I thought that was
really good?
It is cellular, isn't it?
Bridgett (10:32):
Yeah, it is.
You know, what I often say isthat your body knows or
experiences what you're goingthrough faster than your mind
can catch up.
And you know, I think, thatoftentimes we don't give, I
guess, enough maybe attention orvalue to our body, especially
(10:52):
when we are going through grief,because our body is
experiencing everything thathappened, but at a cellular
level where you know we canbecome sick, we can.
I mean our body, just itresponds to what is happening in
our life, both mentally,emotionally, environmentally.
And so I remember losing myhair in great, I mean just like
(11:18):
chunks of hair.
It almost felt not normal and Iremember I actually was so
concerned at one time, I think Iposted a picture on my Facebook
or in a group for grieving momsor something.
I remember reaching out to thesocial media experts or whatever
and saying, is this normal?
(11:40):
Am I losing it here?
Like, should I be concerned?
I started thinking, do I havecancer?
Like what is going on?
And to be quite honest, I meanI was so depressed at that time
I even thought, well, cancerwould be better than this,
because I maybe I could just diethen, and I know that sounds so
morbid, but like I was at apoint in my life where that's
(12:02):
what I was thinking, and my body, though, was responding to that
level of just defeat anddespair and, uh, depression, and
so, you know, I think that it'sreally important to also
recognize how we're taking careof our body.
I, I remember there's a time,too, where I actually was angry
(12:27):
with my body.
Like you know, I I've had twolosses, two pregnancy losses,
and I, when I was so depressed,I couldn't really function.
I mean, I, I had to take timeoff work.
Um, I was unable to just havethe energy that I normally have
to even eat or do things or getout of the house or whatever,
(12:50):
and so I started just kind ofgetting angry at my body.
I didn't recognize it rightaway, but I remember, at one
point I almost I really actuallyrealized that I was thinking
negative things about my bodyand towards my body, and just
saying hurtful things to myselfabout my body and how my body
(13:13):
failed me, and why can't it justpick itself up and why can't
you know I, I just it, whateverit is.
Whatever the thoughts were atthe time, I know they weren't
positive, and I think, when Irecognized that, I realized,
well, I actually have to forgivemy body, like I have to release
it from just the the amount ofstress and accusation that I am
(13:38):
putting on it.
And so you know I I grew tolove myself differently when I
saw my body also as a part of ofmy personhood.
That grieved the losses with meand it wasn't my enemy but it
was my friend.
And you know, I think that whenI really had that mind shift, I
(14:01):
started to appreciate my bodydifferently and care for it
differently and see thedifferent parts of my body and
how it changed in pregnancydifferently.
And instead of shaming my bodyand shaming really myself, I
began to love myself and receivemyself and embrace myself
differently.
And I think sometimes it's justimportant to even slow down and
(14:23):
recognize how your body istaking hits, just like your
emotions and your mind is aswell, when you're going through
something of such greatmagnitude.
Michelle (14:34):
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that we had that conversation
Because I, you know, I know alot of people struggle with
anxiety and depression that'skind of surrounding their grief
event, whatever the loss was.
And you know, I personallydidn't feel like prior to losing
my son that I had that muchanxiety and panic.
(14:54):
But following the loss, all ofa sudden, you know things would,
would scare me, like you said,do I have cancer?
All these things I thought Iwas having a heart attack, you
know, because your body'sreacting to this, this loss, you
know.
So you said and I was readingwhere you said those trigger
responses that their, theirnegative thoughts and feelings,
(15:16):
trigger responses, are simplygrief's way of guiding you
toward areas that requirefurther attention for healing,
and I thought that was good andI know that you have experience
too as a therapist.
So can you give us some stepsthat we can use to address those
hard things, because obviouslythey're difficult to begin with,
but what might be a step thatwe could take to do that?
Bridgett (15:37):
Yeah Well, you know just to, to give an example of
that, for for maybe those whoare are not sure or haven't read
my book yet to understand whatwhat I'm talking about.
You know.
I think that to kind ofpiggyback off of the fact that
our body responds quicker thanour mind can catch up to Our
mind is meant to protect us in alot of ways.
(15:58):
And so when something happens,whether maybe you're in a
conversation with someone oryou're in a situation where
there's a memory that triggerssomething that was uncomfortable
or emotionally really hard foryou, we call that a trigger that
your body then responds to.
And so there is a time I'llshare a story of when this
(16:20):
happened to me.
When I was pregnant, I actuallycraved onion rings from Jack in
the Box.
And I mean, now I look back andI'm like, oh, it's so gross,
like I don't know how I ate thatmany onion rings at Jack in the
Box, of all places.
But I remember my husband atthe time would wake up in the
middle of the night and go getJack in the box because they
(16:42):
were open and they had onionrings.
You know.
So it was great, but but youknow, that was when I was
pregnant after I lost my son.
I remember we were at home andwe had a hard time sleeping.
You know, I think in grief yoursleep just looks so different.
And so there were times wherewe were up really late at night
and kind of like, all right,well, are we sleeping or not
(17:05):
sleeping?
Like, what are we doing?
Going on a drive, what is it?
And so we decided we would goon drive, sometimes at night,
just to kind of get out of thehouse.
And one night in particular Iwas in the living room and I
could see my husband putting hisshoes on and it kind of gave me
a flashback of him putting hisshoes on when he would get up in
(17:28):
the middle of the night and goget me onion rings.
And it was so quick, it wassuch a quick moment that my body
literally started to panic,like I felt like my heart, I
almost felt like I was having aheart attack.
Like my knees gave out.
I totally just like fell over.
(17:50):
I couldn't breathe.
I just started like I can'teven remember, honestly, all of
what happened because it feltlike just tunnel vision and I
really thought I was going todie.
In that moment I just thought,oh my gosh, my heart stopped
remembering how to beat and Idon't know how to breathe now,
like I just couldn't figure itout.
(18:12):
And you know, it only lasted Idon't even know.
I mean, of course, you lookback, you think you think I was
like five minutes or something.
It's probably not even thatlong, maybe like a minute or 30
seconds, but in that moment Ijust it was the first time I had
experienced what I would referto as just a panic attack.
And you know, there are momentslike that where I think maybe
(18:37):
they're not that extreme, butthey trigger something in us
that we either know, orconscious of, or not conscious
of, that our body responds toand they can be really, really
difficult for us to experienceand scary, scary, and and so you
(19:02):
know, whatever that looks likeI think to your point what can
we do about it?
It really is slowing down theprocess and becoming aware of
what's actually happening behindthe curtain, it's actually
happening under the surface.
Oftentimes, we kind of look atsome of our symptoms and think,
well, this is just what life isand this is what it looks like
and and yes, to some degree youknow that is what life looks
(19:23):
like right now.
However, the the solutionreally is behind the trigger.
It's what's actually triggeringthis response right now, and
let's deal with that, like,let's go to the root of of that.
And I think one of the stepsthat just practically that
people can take is one firstbeing aware of how's my body
(19:46):
responding, because, of course,it's going to tell you first if
you're starting to get angry, ifyou're starting to get anxious,
if you're starting to feelwhatever.
It is you know which whichtells us what we're feeling.
And then, obviously, we trackthat back and figure out okay,
well, what's the thought behindthis feeling, where's this
coming from?
And really just slowing downthe process in that moment.
(20:09):
It's not always the best placeto practice that, but it always
is after the fact.
So for those who are like Ican't do that in the moment,
that's okay, most of us can'tit's actually after the fact,
taking time to really figure outwhat was that reaction about,
why did I choose to respond thatway, or why did I just react
and respond that way?
(20:30):
And you know, once we becomeaware, once we let our mind
catch up to what's really goingon, once we let our mind catch
up to what's really going on,we're then able to catch some of
those triggers faster the nexttime and begin to tell our mind
oh, this is what's happening,you're safe, you're okay, this
(20:50):
isn't a threat, because our mindwill naturally want to protect
ourself and it will follow veryquickly without us recognizing
our emotions, our reactions,everything.
And so, you know, I always justencourage people to find
awareness in in your reactions.
Figure out how am I reacting,how's that affecting me and
(21:13):
others?
And is it, is it working for me?
And if it's not, then let'sfigure out where this is coming
from so that you can really dealwith the root of that.
Michelle (21:25):
Yeah, that's good, and I remember feeling that way too
, and one of the tools I usedwas journaling.
I remember a therapist hadrecommended that, and you're
right, in the throes of it all,when we're so anxious, it's like
, oh my gosh, just feel better,breathe, you know.
But I was able to kind of goback to my journal later and go,
okay, this one didn't kill me,so obviously it's just my body,
(21:50):
and then I could look furtherdown and see where it was less
and less.
So yeah, I agree with you 100%.
Our bodies are.
It's crazy how intricate andhow they respond to grief.
And it's really good, I think,to talk about it, because when I
was going through it I had noidea.
I really thought every singletime I was dying, like you said.
And then when I started to readmore and talk to a therapist, I
(22:11):
began to realize this is anormal grief response.
So that's really good.
Bridgett (22:15):
We have to process it To your point.
I think grief can be soisolating and we don't mean it
to be, but we naturally couldisolate very easily in our grief
, feeling like people don'tunderstand or you don't have
even the energy to really talkto people.
But I think finding outlets toprocess is so important.
Journaling was huge for me aswell.
(22:37):
I also processed, even on hikes.
I loved being outside, so evenjust getting out of your
environment is really important.
Finding ways to process yourgrief is huge too.
Even just doing practicalthings giving memory to if it's
a child that you lost, givingmemory to them.
I know that every year myfamily we plant sunflowers is
(23:13):
one of the most difficult daysof the year.
I want to do somethingpractical that actually brings
joy and memory and honor to myson, and so finding things like
that, where it just kind ofhelps you really deal with the
loss, as opposed to maybe hidingfrom it or or sleeping at under
under the rug or just not notdealing with it, is it's just
important to find ways that workfor you to really process those
(23:33):
emotions.
Michelle (23:34):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I try and do the same thing,
and one of the things I thinkthat is amazing is what you're
doing with writing the book andhelping other people through
their grief.
I hope to do the same thingwith the podcast and having you
on here today, and so I want toask you about that Now that
you've written this book and youreally have dedicated yourself
(23:54):
to helping people deal withgrief and loss, do you have one
particular story or experiencethat you can share with us about
someone that you helped wherethey really did a radical
turnaround in their griefbecause of working together with
you?
Bridgett (24:08):
Oh gosh, yeah, I mean there's a lot I'm thinking about
.
You know, it's interestingbecause I, when I wrote my book,
it took me a while, partlybecause, well, a few different
reasons.
One, you kind of have to goback and relive all of those
emotions, which is reallydifficult, more difficult than I
thought it was going to be.
But two, you know, difficultthan I thought it was going to
(24:29):
be.
But two, you know, sometimes Iwould tell myself, well, this
isn't.
I mean, there's a lot ofstories like mine and you know
what makes mine so unique.
Or I kind of would talk myselfout of some of the things I
would share, even with clientsthat it's not that grandiose or
great.
But what I found is that whenyou share your story, your
(24:55):
experience, it actually becomesmeaningful to people that are
going through that, because itnormalizes what they're going
through.
One.
Two, it just validates some ofthe things that they're feeling,
thinking, experiencing.
And you know, I think even justgiving safe space to talk about
(25:19):
it, to give permission topeople to say this is this is
actually something that isaccepted to talk about and
there's no judgment here.
It it actually allows people toheal at greater rates than than
not having that.
And you know, even people thathave read my book, I've gotten
responses from people saying,you know, I just there's so much
(25:40):
in there that that reallyresonated with me, it really
brought healing to my heart.
And I think, just the simplethings.
You don't realize that yoursimple story matters to people
because it opens up something inthem, you know, and so so
there's a lot of those moments.
I do remember, specifically agirl telling me that she was
(26:03):
suicidal and really just didn'tthink she could carry on.
And you know, after talkingwith me, working with me, she,
she, her life completely turnedaround and she is actually, you
know, doing some things.
She hasn't written a book, butshe's doing other things that
are really like bringing hopeand healing to other people.
(26:24):
And so seeing where she's atnow and where she started, it's
like world difference.
And you know, I just gives meso much hope and encouragement
to know that could be someone'sstory, to go from complete
despair to hope and healing, tobringing that, that light to
others in the world.
And so I love when I get toexperience people's pain and
(26:48):
also see their healing and thattotally transforms into hope on
the other side.
And so you know that's onething that I have seen time and
time again, big and small,different cases.
But yeah, I'm just so gratefulthat I actually did put my
experience on paper and peopleget to read it and work through
(27:11):
it at their own pace.
Michelle (27:13):
Yeah, and you continue to do that.
I think it's really good that,from a faith perspective we
talked before about that thatthere's actually scripture that
says that we're to comfortothers with the comfort that
we've received from God, and wedon't think about that in the
moment, we don't think about itin the pain.
But you're right, our storieshelp other people and that's
(27:33):
really how I believe God intendsthem to be.
It's not so that we can justhave that pain and check out and
isolate and be done, which iseasy to want to do, but this is
the much better way we can useour pain to help other people.
So, with that said, I alwaysask all my guests at the end
(27:56):
what are those big life lessonsthat you learned having been
through a miscarriage and astillbirth, the loss of your
marriage and all the otherlosses that you talked about
your church, family, yourcommunity?
What are those big life lessonsthat you can share that might
help someone listening right nowwho needs hope?
Bridgett (28:25):
My identity and just where I'm going.
And so I think that when you'rein it, it can feel really
hopeless, helpless, just and,and so we almost kind of lose
sight of any sort of future orsurrounding of of hope.
And you know, when I'm talkingto those who are are searching
(28:47):
for that, I think it's importantto remember that pain is
temporary and it doesn't have tobe permanent unless we choose
it to be, but it definitely doesnot.
It's not meant to be permanent,and so this is just a step in
the journey of evolving and Ithink that wherever, wherever
(29:10):
you find hope is important, butI think that finding it is
crucial to living.
And you know, I remember someonetelling me that you know that I
will look back on this time ofgrief and see it as a gift, and
I remember thinking like there'sno way I'd never, ever want to
revisit this season of my lifeever again.
(29:31):
But when I look back at,actually, the most painful times
in my life were necessary forme to become who I am today, and
I think that if I had sloweddown and recognize that this
isn't permanent.
It is necessary for me to justembrace this journey and see it
as there's hope for me, there'slife for me on the other side,
(29:54):
that this is not where my storyends, this is not where my life
ends, this is not the end, butthere is a tomorrow, and
tomorrow will bring about a newhope for the future.
And so you know I think that'sprobably one thing that when
life is still hard at times andlife hits you out of nowhere and
(30:15):
there's things that happen Ithink it's just important to
recognize this is this is anopportunity to either press in
and grow, or or believe reallythe the lie that this is where
my life ends and that's notwhere it has to end, because
there's so much more to live for.
Michelle (30:34):
Very well said.
Yeah, and you're right.
People are watching us too,aren't they, and they want to
see how we're going to react,and we can either help them or
hurt them with the way that wereact to our pain.
Well, bridget, thank you somuch Before I close.
Was there anything else that Ifailed to ask you that you want
to share?
Bridgett (30:51):
You know, I'm currently, right now, giving my
book away for free as a freedownload to anyone who would
like.
You know, just some resources.
I, you know, I'm really justpassionate about helping those
who are walking through this andlooking for resources.
So if you go to my website,Bridgett Dunbar.
com/ grief, you can find thatthere.
(31:12):
If you're someone that you knowwants to purchase it and have
it in hand, it's also availableon Amazon.
Michelle (31:17):
So Well, thank you very much for that.
I did get my copy and I canattest to the fact that it was a
very helpful tool, so thank youfor putting it together and
thank you for coming on the showtoday and being my guest.
It was a pleasure meeting youand getting to know you.
Bridgett (31:31):
Thank you so much.
I'm so grateful for being here.
Thanks.
Michelle (31:36):
So for those of you listening, if you're struggling
with a loss like this, know thatyou're not alone.
Like Bridgett, I also sufferedthe loss of a child, and there's
nothing like that kind of pain.
I get it and it helped me inthose dark times when I realized
that others had been there andhad survived, that they continue
(31:59):
to live and thrive and helpother people.
And I agree wholeheartedly withwhat Bridgett said about pain
being temporary and alsonecessary to get to the next
level in life.
And, like Bridgett, if someonetold me back then that I should
look at my grief as a gift, I'mnot sure I would have responded
(32:20):
with grace.
But today, today is a brighterday and tomorrow does bring a
new hope for the future, andit's my prayer that you will get
through this hard time andemerge stronger.
I pray that you're encouragedtoday, my friend.
Thanks for listening.
Well, hey, everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Finding out you're pregnant,going to your first ultrasound
appointment, feeling themovement of your child inside
(00:30):
you - these are the days amother will always remember and
cherish, and the excitement ofbringing a new life into this
world is such an overwhelminggift and a privilege and a joy,
and the emotions that weexperience as soon-to-be moms
are so powerful they're evenhard to describe.
So how do you process the words"your pregnancy is not viable,
(00:55):
or we don't detect a heartbeat,or your baby is dead?
Well, my guest today had tohear and process those words not
once, but twice over the lastseveral years, when she
experienced the loss of twochildren through miscarriage and
stillbirth.
In addition to being acourageous overcomer, she's also
(01:15):
a mental health breakthroughstrategist and has been a
licensed marriage and familytherapist for more than a decade
.
She's the author of the bookGrief, loss and the Goodness of
God, and she's dedicated herselfto helping individuals improve
their mental and spiritualhealth and find their way back
to joy and peace after loss.
Her name is Bridgett Dunbar andit's my pleasure to have her as
(01:37):
my guest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified Bridgett.
Bridgett (01:41):
Thank you so much.
I am so honored to be here
Michelle (01:49):
Thank you, well, let's get into it.
As I said, you had toexperience the horrific pain of
a miscarriage of your firstchild and then the stillbirth of
your second and, as you and Iboth know, there's no worse
words than your child is nolonger living.
Can you tell us about thecircumstances surrounding that
time in your life and all theemotions that you experienced
(02:10):
following both of thesetraumatic events?
Bridgett (02:13):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know it's interestingbecause you know you ask
children kind of at a young agelike what do you want to be when
you grow up?
And we have all of thesegrandiose ideas of of being
whatever we, we think we can be.
And I remember from a young ageI always wanted to be a mom.
Like I always said, I want tobe a mother.
(02:34):
Um, I don't know if that's justbecause I had a really active
mother in my life and I just sawit as something really amazing,
but either way, when I firstgot pregnant, I can't really,
you know, even explain theemotions that went through me as
just the reality hit me I'mgoing to be a mom.
And what happened was, you know,I was not expecting anything to
(03:02):
come like anything tragic tocome from that news and you know
, like most people, we aren't.
And so when I got pregnant thefirst time, I actually remember
my mom went out and bought me abunch of like pregnancy clothes,
like we were just so excitedfor this baby, right, like any,
like anyone would be.
But what happened was Iactually had some cramping, went
(03:26):
to my doctor and they kind ofdid some tests on me, sent me
home and I got an email thatsaid you know, expect to expect
to miscarry.
You know, your, your, yourpregnancy's not viable, like it
was so shocking to me that Ireally just didn't even know how
(03:47):
to wrap my mind around that thefirst time and so that was my
experience I had an early termmiscarriage the first time I got
pregnant and it really kind offlipped my world around.
I just was not expecting thator in the way that it was
delivered to it was really justhard to understand why that
(04:08):
happened or what happened.
And so, you know, for mefortunately, I did get pregnant
shortly thereafter.
Uh, you know, I know thatdoesn't always happen with with
everyone, but for me I saw it aslike this, this wonderful
surprise, and and then I carriedthat child to 35 weeks and I
(04:35):
went into preterm labor and wentto the hospital and they told
me they couldn't find theheartbeat.
And at the time I had a lot ofdoctors, nurses, kind of, you
know, checking me, telling medifferent things.
Oh, you know, sometimes thishappens, don't worry about it
Until finally one of the nurseshad to tell me no, your child is
(04:56):
dead.
Like we can't find theheartbeat means that your child
is no longer living and you willbe giving birth to a stillborn
child, and so at that point I um, I mean my when I say like I
just my whole world fell apart.
It just felt like my whole worldfell apart and that unraveled a
(05:19):
whole grief journey for me.
But in that moment it's likeyou know, when you think the
promise is there and thatblessing is there.
Whatever, you know that thatexcitement the second time, and
then for that to happen, it wasreally, it was really tragic for
me to go through.
Michelle (05:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thanks for sharing thatand again I am so sorry to hear
that and I know that newsmust've, just, like you said,
unraveled you, especially at 35weeks you know so far along and
loving your baby already andintimately attaching to him.
So I'm very sorry, Bridgett,Thank you and you know, I read
(05:57):
your book and you laid it outjust like that in the book and
described that, but then youalso got into, I think, what you
called the death of yourmarriage, like in one year later
, less than a year later.
Can you talk about how thiskind of secondary loss impacted
you and then what realizationsyou came to at that point in
(06:18):
your life?
Bridgett (06:20):
Yeah, you know.
So it's interesting becauseduring that time in my life I
actually experienced a lot oflosses.
So you know, I had a familymember that had passed away just
a month prior to us losing ourson at birth.
Following that, I was workingin a church with my husband.
We were pastors and we couldn'tcarry on that ministry and so
(06:40):
in that we've also kind of lostour job and the community that
was there.
And you know, I had, I had,another family member who got
really sick.
We thought we were going tolose him, and so you know, there
was a lot going on, a lot oflosses and, to your point, a
year after our son had passed, II lost my marriage as well, and
(07:02):
I would say it's the worstfeeling to lose your child.
I mean, there's really no wordsaround that and those who know
just know.
But for me to have lost mymarriage and someone that I had
bonded with for so long, it feltlike I lost my best friend as
(07:24):
well, and that was a wholedifferent type of loss that I
actually refer to as a livingdeath.
And so you know, it felt likethis person is still alive, but
yet they're dead in my life, andso that was a whole different
type of grief, honestly, that Iwasn't prepared for and I didn't
(07:44):
know how to really navigate.
And so you know, I would say atthat point I was already pretty
depressed, but I wouldn't evenI would say I went into a deep
depression after that.
I really had a hard timefunctioning, really knowing what
life looked like.
You know, you build kind ofyour life with, with another or
(08:06):
even just with anyone, like youknow, even if you're having a
child, you build your life withthese plans and hopes and dreams
and this future that you areseeing, you're working towards,
and then when all of that comescrashing down, it really kind of
levels out your life to a pointwhere you're you kind of look
at life and you just say what,what is life now Like?
(08:27):
What is, what do I do now?
How do I, how do I pick myselfup and keep going forward?
Do I mean, like it?
There's so many kind ofuncertainties that we start to
process through it.
At least I didn't, and it and ittook me on a self-exploration
journey, like I startedexploring.
Well, who am I outside ofmotherhood?
(08:49):
Who am I outside of being awife?
Who am I outside of being, youknow, in church, leadership or
in this role or whatever it isLike.
And so I started really askingmyself.
I kind of went back to thefundamentals of who am I, what
do I want, where am I going?
What does life look like now?
(09:10):
What do I want out of life?
And although it was a greatplace I look back, and that was
such a gifted time in my life tobe able to ask those questions,
at the time, it felt very, Ifelt very lost, I felt very
alone and it took me on ajourney of really exploring who
am I now at this point?
Michelle (09:33):
Yeah Well, I think that's a good place to be in
some respects, and I can relateabsolutely to what you said
about that.
It's like you lose a sense ofidentity in those roles mother,
wife, you know and then you haveto figure all that out.
I experienced that as well whenI lost my son.
It's like I'm not a motheranymore, you know.
(09:53):
And then the depression andanxiety like you talked about,
those things are very real and Iknow a lot of listeners are
probably feeling like they canrelate to that.
So I wanted to talk about thethings you say in your book that
I found really valuable, and itwas in chapter 12, where you
talk about how our bodies alsogrieve the losses.
And you said that you beganlosing your hair and your hair
(10:16):
was coming out.
You were depressed and you saidour bodies know there's been a
loss of some great magnitude.
It's felt in every part of ourcellular DNA.
So can you break that down forus, because I thought that was
really good?
It is cellular, isn't it?
Bridgett (10:32):
Yeah, it is.
You know, what I often say isthat your body knows or
experiences what you're goingthrough faster than your mind
can catch up.
And you know, I think, thatoftentimes we don't give, I
guess, enough maybe attention orvalue to our body, especially
(10:52):
when we are going through grief,because our body is
experiencing everything thathappened, but at a cellular
level where you know we canbecome sick, we can.
I mean our body, just itresponds to what is happening in
our life, both mentally,emotionally, environmentally.
And so I remember losing myhair in great, I mean just like
(11:18):
chunks of hair.
It almost felt not normal and Iremember I actually was so
concerned at one time, I think Iposted a picture on my Facebook
or in a group for grieving momsor something.
I remember reaching out to thesocial media experts or whatever
and saying, is this normal?
(11:40):
Am I losing it here?
Like, should I be concerned?
I started thinking, do I havecancer?
Like what is going on?
And to be quite honest, I meanI was so depressed at that time
I even thought, well, cancerwould be better than this,
because I maybe I could just diethen, and I know that sounds so
morbid, but like I was at apoint in my life where that's
(12:02):
what I was thinking, and my body, though, was responding to that
level of just defeat anddespair and, uh, depression, and
so, you know, I think that it'sreally important to also
recognize how we're taking careof our body.
I, I remember there's a time,too, where I actually was angry
(12:27):
with my body.
Like you know, I I've had twolosses, two pregnancy losses,
and I, when I was so depressed,I couldn't really function.
I mean, I, I had to take timeoff work.
Um, I was unable to just havethe energy that I normally have
to even eat or do things or getout of the house or whatever,
(12:50):
and so I started just kind ofgetting angry at my body.
I didn't recognize it rightaway, but I remember, at one
point I almost I really actuallyrealized that I was thinking
negative things about my bodyand towards my body, and just
saying hurtful things to myselfabout my body and how my body
(13:13):
failed me, and why can't it justpick itself up and why can't
you know I, I just it, whateverit is.
Whatever the thoughts were atthe time, I know they weren't
positive, and I think, when Irecognized that, I realized,
well, I actually have to forgivemy body, like I have to release
it from just the the amount ofstress and accusation that I am
(13:38):
putting on it.
And so you know I I grew tolove myself differently when I
saw my body also as a part of ofmy personhood.
That grieved the losses with meand it wasn't my enemy but it
was my friend.
And you know, I think that whenI really had that mind shift, I
(14:01):
started to appreciate my bodydifferently and care for it
differently and see thedifferent parts of my body and
how it changed in pregnancydifferently.
And instead of shaming my bodyand shaming really myself, I
began to love myself and receivemyself and embrace myself
differently.
And I think sometimes it's justimportant to even slow down and
(14:23):
recognize how your body istaking hits, just like your
emotions and your mind is aswell, when you're going through
something of such greatmagnitude.
Michelle (14:34):
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that we had that conversation
Because I, you know, I know alot of people struggle with
anxiety and depression that'skind of surrounding their grief
event, whatever the loss was.
And you know, I personallydidn't feel like prior to losing
my son that I had that muchanxiety and panic.
(14:54):
But following the loss, all ofa sudden, you know things would,
would scare me, like you said,do I have cancer?
All these things I thought Iwas having a heart attack, you
know, because your body'sreacting to this, this loss, you
know.
So you said and I was readingwhere you said those trigger
responses that their, theirnegative thoughts and feelings,
(15:16):
trigger responses, are simplygrief's way of guiding you
toward areas that requirefurther attention for healing,
and I thought that was good andI know that you have experience
too as a therapist.
So can you give us some stepsthat we can use to address those
hard things, because obviouslythey're difficult to begin with,
but what might be a step thatwe could take to do that?
Bridgett (15:37):
Yeah Well, you know just to, to give an example of
that, for for maybe those whoare are not sure or haven't read
my book yet to understand whatwhat I'm talking about.
You know.
I think that to kind ofpiggyback off of the fact that
our body responds quicker thanour mind can catch up to Our
mind is meant to protect us in alot of ways.
(15:58):
And so when something happens,whether maybe you're in a
conversation with someone oryou're in a situation where
there's a memory that triggerssomething that was uncomfortable
or emotionally really hard foryou, we call that a trigger that
your body then responds to.
And so there is a time I'llshare a story of when this
(16:20):
happened to me.
When I was pregnant, I actuallycraved onion rings from Jack in
the Box.
And I mean, now I look back andI'm like, oh, it's so gross,
like I don't know how I ate thatmany onion rings at Jack in the
Box, of all places.
But I remember my husband atthe time would wake up in the
middle of the night and go getJack in the box because they
(16:42):
were open and they had onionrings.
You know.
So it was great, but but youknow, that was when I was
pregnant after I lost my son.
I remember we were at home andwe had a hard time sleeping.
You know, I think in grief yoursleep just looks so different.
And so there were times wherewe were up really late at night
and kind of like, all right,well, are we sleeping or not
(17:05):
sleeping?
Like, what are we doing?
Going on a drive, what is it?
And so we decided we would goon drive, sometimes at night,
just to kind of get out of thehouse.
And one night in particular Iwas in the living room and I
could see my husband putting hisshoes on and it kind of gave me
a flashback of him putting hisshoes on when he would get up in
(17:28):
the middle of the night and goget me onion rings.
And it was so quick, it wassuch a quick moment that my body
literally started to panic,like I felt like my heart, I
almost felt like I was having aheart attack.
Like my knees gave out.
I totally just like fell over.
(17:50):
I couldn't breathe.
I just started like I can'teven remember, honestly, all of
what happened because it feltlike just tunnel vision and I
really thought I was going todie.
In that moment I just thought,oh my gosh, my heart stopped
remembering how to beat and Idon't know how to breathe now,
like I just couldn't figure itout.
(18:12):
And you know, it only lasted Idon't even know.
I mean, of course, you lookback, you think you think I was
like five minutes or something.
It's probably not even thatlong, maybe like a minute or 30
seconds, but in that moment Ijust it was the first time I had
experienced what I would referto as just a panic attack.
And you know, there are momentslike that where I think maybe
(18:37):
they're not that extreme, butthey trigger something in us
that we either know, orconscious of, or not conscious
of, that our body responds toand they can be really, really
difficult for us to experienceand scary, scary, and and so you
(19:02):
know, whatever that looks likeI think to your point what can
we do about it?
It really is slowing down theprocess and becoming aware of
what's actually happening behindthe curtain, it's actually
happening under the surface.
Oftentimes, we kind of look atsome of our symptoms and think,
well, this is just what life isand this is what it looks like
and and yes, to some degree youknow that is what life looks
(19:23):
like right now.
However, the the solutionreally is behind the trigger.
It's what's actually triggeringthis response right now, and
let's deal with that, like,let's go to the root of of that.
And I think one of the stepsthat just practically that
people can take is one firstbeing aware of how's my body
(19:46):
responding, because, of course,it's going to tell you first if
you're starting to get angry, ifyou're starting to get anxious,
if you're starting to feelwhatever.
It is you know which whichtells us what we're feeling.
And then, obviously, we trackthat back and figure out okay,
well, what's the thought behindthis feeling, where's this
coming from?
And really just slowing downthe process in that moment.
(20:09):
It's not always the best placeto practice that, but it always
is after the fact.
So for those who are like Ican't do that in the moment,
that's okay, most of us can'tit's actually after the fact,
taking time to really figure outwhat was that reaction about,
why did I choose to respond thatway, or why did I just react
and respond that way?
(20:30):
And you know, once we becomeaware, once we let our mind
catch up to what's really goingon, once we let our mind catch
up to what's really going on,we're then able to catch some of
those triggers faster the nexttime and begin to tell our mind
oh, this is what's happening,you're safe, you're okay, this
(20:50):
isn't a threat, because our mindwill naturally want to protect
ourself and it will follow veryquickly without us recognizing
our emotions, our reactions,everything.
And so, you know, I always justencourage people to find
awareness in in your reactions.
Figure out how am I reacting,how's that affecting me and
(21:13):
others?
And is it, is it working for me?
And if it's not, then let'sfigure out where this is coming
from so that you can really dealwith the root of that.
Michelle (21:25):
Yeah, that's good, and I remember feeling that way too
, and one of the tools I usedwas journaling.
I remember a therapist hadrecommended that, and you're
right, in the throes of it all,when we're so anxious, it's like
, oh my gosh, just feel better,breathe, you know.
But I was able to kind of goback to my journal later and go,
okay, this one didn't kill me,so obviously it's just my body,
(21:50):
and then I could look furtherdown and see where it was less
and less.
So yeah, I agree with you 100%.
Our bodies are.
It's crazy how intricate andhow they respond to grief.
And it's really good, I think,to talk about it, because when I
was going through it I had noidea.
I really thought every singletime I was dying, like you said.
And then when I started to readmore and talk to a therapist, I
(22:11):
began to realize this is anormal grief response.
So that's really good.
Bridgett (22:15):
We have to process it To your point.
I think grief can be soisolating and we don't mean it
to be, but we naturally couldisolate very easily in our grief
, feeling like people don'tunderstand or you don't have
even the energy to really talkto people.
But I think finding outlets toprocess is so important.
Journaling was huge for me aswell.
(22:37):
I also processed, even on hikes.
I loved being outside, so evenjust getting out of your
environment is really important.
Finding ways to process yourgrief is huge too.
Even just doing practicalthings giving memory to if it's
a child that you lost, givingmemory to them.
I know that every year myfamily we plant sunflowers is
(23:13):
one of the most difficult daysof the year.
I want to do somethingpractical that actually brings
joy and memory and honor to myson, and so finding things like
that, where it just kind ofhelps you really deal with the
loss, as opposed to maybe hidingfrom it or or sleeping at under
under the rug or just not notdealing with it, is it's just
important to find ways that workfor you to really process those
(23:33):
emotions.
Michelle (23:34):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I try and do the same thing,
and one of the things I thinkthat is amazing is what you're
doing with writing the book andhelping other people through
their grief.
I hope to do the same thingwith the podcast and having you
on here today, and so I want toask you about that Now that
you've written this book and youreally have dedicated yourself
(23:54):
to helping people deal withgrief and loss, do you have one
particular story or experiencethat you can share with us about
someone that you helped wherethey really did a radical
turnaround in their griefbecause of working together with
you?
Bridgett (24:08):
Oh gosh, yeah, I mean there's a lot I'm thinking about
.
You know, it's interestingbecause I, when I wrote my book,
it took me a while, partlybecause, well, a few different
reasons.
One, you kind of have to goback and relive all of those
emotions, which is reallydifficult, more difficult than I
thought it was going to be.
But two, you know, difficultthan I thought it was going to
(24:29):
be.
But two, you know, sometimes Iwould tell myself, well, this
isn't.
I mean, there's a lot ofstories like mine and you know
what makes mine so unique.
Or I kind of would talk myselfout of some of the things I
would share, even with clientsthat it's not that grandiose or
great.
But what I found is that whenyou share your story, your
(24:55):
experience, it actually becomesmeaningful to people that are
going through that, because itnormalizes what they're going
through.
One.
Two, it just validates some ofthe things that they're feeling,
thinking, experiencing.
And you know, I think even justgiving safe space to talk about
(25:19):
it, to give permission topeople to say this is this is
actually something that isaccepted to talk about and
there's no judgment here.
It it actually allows people toheal at greater rates than than
not having that.
And you know, even people thathave read my book, I've gotten
responses from people saying,you know, I just there's so much
(25:40):
in there that that reallyresonated with me, it really
brought healing to my heart.
And I think, just the simplethings.
You don't realize that yoursimple story matters to people
because it opens up something inthem, you know, and so so
there's a lot of those moments.
I do remember, specifically agirl telling me that she was
(26:03):
suicidal and really just didn'tthink she could carry on.
And you know, after talkingwith me, working with me, she,
she, her life completely turnedaround and she is actually, you
know, doing some things.
She hasn't written a book, butshe's doing other things that
are really like bringing hopeand healing to other people.
(26:24):
And so seeing where she's atnow and where she started, it's
like world difference.
And you know, I just gives meso much hope and encouragement
to know that could be someone'sstory, to go from complete
despair to hope and healing, tobringing that, that light to
others in the world.
And so I love when I get toexperience people's pain and
(26:48):
also see their healing and thattotally transforms into hope on
the other side.
And so you know that's onething that I have seen time and
time again, big and small,different cases.
But yeah, I'm just so gratefulthat I actually did put my
experience on paper and peopleget to read it and work through
(27:11):
it at their own pace.
Michelle (27:13):
Yeah, and you continue to do that.
I think it's really good that,from a faith perspective we
talked before about that thatthere's actually scripture that
says that we're to comfortothers with the comfort that
we've received from God, and wedon't think about that in the
moment, we don't think about itin the pain.
But you're right, our storieshelp other people and that's
(27:33):
really how I believe God intendsthem to be.
It's not so that we can justhave that pain and check out and
isolate and be done, which iseasy to want to do, but this is
the much better way we can useour pain to help other people.
So, with that said, I alwaysask all my guests at the end
(27:56):
what are those big life lessonsthat you learned having been
through a miscarriage and astillbirth, the loss of your
marriage and all the otherlosses that you talked about
your church, family, yourcommunity?
What are those big life lessonsthat you can share that might
help someone listening right nowwho needs hope?
Bridgett (28:25):
My identity and just where I'm going.
And so I think that when you'rein it, it can feel really
hopeless, helpless, just and,and so we almost kind of lose
sight of any sort of future orsurrounding of of hope.
And you know, when I'm talkingto those who are are searching
(28:47):
for that, I think it's importantto remember that pain is
temporary and it doesn't have tobe permanent unless we choose
it to be, but it definitely doesnot.
It's not meant to be permanent,and so this is just a step in
the journey of evolving and Ithink that wherever, wherever
(29:10):
you find hope is important, butI think that finding it is
crucial to living.
And you know, I remember someonetelling me that you know that I
will look back on this time ofgrief and see it as a gift, and
I remember thinking like there'sno way I'd never, ever want to
revisit this season of my lifeever again.
(29:31):
But when I look back at,actually, the most painful times
in my life were necessary forme to become who I am today, and
I think that if I had sloweddown and recognize that this
isn't permanent.
It is necessary for me to justembrace this journey and see it
as there's hope for me, there'slife for me on the other side,
(29:54):
that this is not where my storyends, this is not where my life
ends, this is not the end, butthere is a tomorrow, and
tomorrow will bring about a newhope for the future.
And so you know I think that'sprobably one thing that when
life is still hard at times andlife hits you out of nowhere and
(30:15):
there's things that happen Ithink it's just important to
recognize this is this is anopportunity to either press in
and grow, or or believe reallythe the lie that this is where
my life ends and that's notwhere it has to end, because
there's so much more to live for.
Michelle (30:34):
Very well said.
Yeah, and you're right.
People are watching us too,aren't they, and they want to
see how we're going to react,and we can either help them or
hurt them with the way that wereact to our pain.
Well, bridget, thank you somuch Before I close.
Was there anything else that Ifailed to ask you that you want
to share?
Bridgett (30:51):
You know, I'm currently, right now, giving my
book away for free as a freedownload to anyone who would
like.
You know, just some resources.
I, you know, I'm really justpassionate about helping those
who are walking through this andlooking for resources.
So if you go to my website,Bridgett Dunbar.
com/ grief, you can find thatthere.
(31:12):
If you're someone that you knowwants to purchase it and have
it in hand, it's also availableon Amazon.
Michelle (31:17):
So Well, thank you very much for that.
I did get my copy and I canattest to the fact that it was a
very helpful tool, so thank youfor putting it together and
thank you for coming on the showtoday and being my guest.
It was a pleasure meeting youand getting to know you.
Bridgett (31:31):
Thank you so much.
I'm so grateful for being here.
Thanks.
Michelle (31:36):
So for those of you listening, if you're struggling
with a loss like this, know thatyou're not alone.
Like Bridgett, I also sufferedthe loss of a child, and there's
nothing like that kind of pain.
I get it and it helped me inthose dark times when I realized
that others had been there andhad survived, that they continue
(31:59):
to live and thrive and helpother people.
And I agree wholeheartedly withwhat Bridgett said about pain
being temporary and alsonecessary to get to the next
level in life.
And, like Bridgett, if someonetold me back then that I should
look at my grief as a gift, I'mnot sure I would have responded
(32:20):
with grace.
But today, today is a brighterday and tomorrow does bring a
new hope for the future, andit's my prayer that you will get
through this hard time andemerge stronger.
I pray that you're encouragedtoday, my friend.
Thanks for listening.
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