March 22, 2024 • 33 mins
When Katherine and her husband learned of their baby’s fatal fetal diagnosis, they knew they had some hard decisions to make. Since their child had no kidneys he would most likely die in utero or shortly after birth, so doctors recommended termination of the pregnancy.
Listen in as Katherine shares her story about carrying a baby she knew she could not keep and making a choice to stay true to her convictions.
Katherine's blog:
https://medium.com/@whenwatersrise/four-years-and-gods-goodness-eb7c68c003ea
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:10):
Well, hey, everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
A woman who's expecting a babywill experience so many
different emotions.
When the pregnancy is plannedor hoped for, there's usually
(00:34):
great joy and happiness,expectation and gratitude, but
at the same time, there may beanxiety and fear about the
future.
What kind of parent will I be?
Will we be able to afford allthese new expenses?
Will my child be healthy?
My guest today is more thanqualified to talk about the
(00:56):
emotional turmoil that comeswith learning you're pregnant.
She and her husband hoped tostart a family one day and were
blessed to learn that they'dhave their first child back in
2017.
She was a second grade teacherat the time, and her students
were eager to share in theexcitement with her, as were her
friends and family.
Then, an ultrasound at thehalfway point revealed some very
(01:20):
difficult news.
The months that followed wouldprove to be some of the most
challenging and painful ones inher life, and the emotions she
would feel now are one she hadnever felt before.
Besides being an incrediblydetermined and courageous woman,
she is a wife, a mother and theauthor of some of the most
(01:41):
beautiful blog posts I've everread.
She's also a devoted Christianwhose faith would be truly
tested during this trial.
Her name is Katherine Yoder andit's my great honor and
privilege to have her as myguest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified Katherine.
Katherine (01:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so glad to be here, ofcourse.
Michelle (02:02):
Well, Katherine, this story is so involved and I want
the listeners to understand allthe details of what took place.
So can you start by telling usabout the day of the ultrasound
and the news you received aboutyour baby?
Katherine (02:17):
Yeah, so we had reached the halfway point and we
had my parents and my sistersover at our apartment and so
they were waiting for us to goand come back from the
appointment so we could have alittle gender reveal party,
because we had decided to findout the sex of our baby in that
appointment.
So it was just like a reallyhopeful, exciting day and I
(02:38):
remember even like choosing,like wanting to choose a cute
outfit, that kind of thing, justbecause I was so excited for
the occasion.
And so we went and we're reallyexcited and I couldn't wait to
have that iconic profile shot ofthe baby, you know, just like
the profile of the baby and likewith the black background, and
(03:00):
I was just so eager to see whatmy child looked like in the womb
and couldn't wait to know moreabout my pregnancy and who was
in there, so that we could kindof start dreaming with more
direction.
You know, are we are, we are weplanning for a little girl or a
little boy?
And so when we got into thescan and the technician started
(03:22):
scanning you know, scanning mywomb and everything I remember
being initially reallydisappointed because she started
the scan and everything wasgrayscale, almost like when you
turn to the wrong you knowchannel on a TV and it's just
that fuzzy, gray and white andblack dots everywhere and that's
basically what the entire scanlooked like.
(03:42):
There would be a few momentswhere I could see a like a hand
or an arm bone or leg bone, thatkind of thing.
But I just was thinking in myhead, man, like I must have come
to a really low power, like aplace with a really low power
machine, and I was thinking likethis technician must be really
bad at her job, like she mustnot be using the right setting
(04:05):
to kind of get that look.
So she looked around for awhile and I even mentioned, like
man, it's so blurry it's hardto see anything, and she's like,
yeah, you know, that was kindof all she said.
She left the room and came backwith another I think he was a
doctor, I didn't know that atthe time so just another
technician or someone with her,and he took a look at it and at
(04:26):
that point I started to get alittle bit worried.
And then he just turned to usand said your baby has no
kidneys and this is not a viablepregnancy.
Michelle (04:36):
Oh my gosh, that is just so much to absorb in an
instant.
I can imagine your brain musthave just been swirling with
questions and confusion andyou're thinking about a house
full of people waiting for agender reveal.
How did you even react to that?
Katherine (04:52):
It was just like I'm just total shock.
I don't think we said anything,I just was completely blank.
It's just almost like beingpunched in the face, you know,
and you're by someone that youwould never expect that from and
you're like I don't even knowhow to respond to this.
So, you know, he kind of justrepeated himself like there's
(05:15):
nothing that can be done, likethis is not a viable pregnancy
and your child will either diein utero or shortly after
they're born.
And so it just went from being,you know, just this event that
we could not wait for, to bejust, you know, just this
horrendous experience.
(05:35):
And we just walked out of there, just completely blindsided,
and really it just there aren'tvery many words that describe it
.
You know, just, very we werejust, we were so shocked,
basically, and had to returnhome with that news to my family
and that was very, veryupsetting, knowing that they
were happily waiting for us tocome in.
(05:56):
And we walked in the door andthey're like you know what is it
?
What is it?
And so excited, and I was just,you know, heaving sobs, you
know, just couldn't breathe,couldn't talk, for just how
devastated I was, and so really,that is that's the word just
like utter devastation adheringthe worst possible news that you
could really hear in anultrasound.
Michelle (06:17):
Right.
Well, I am so sorry you had togo through all of that, going
from what should have been a dayof complete happiness and
anticipation to a gut wrenchingsensation and horrific news
versus the joyful news that youwere expecting.
So you told me you saw yourdoctor shortly after the
ultrasound and that she not onlyconfirmed the condition of the
(06:40):
baby but advised immediatetermination of your pregnancy.
How did you reconcile all ofthis new information in your
mind, especially given the factthat at this stage, your baby
was already moving and kickinginside you?
Can you describe that tensionbetween knowing your child was
(07:02):
alive but that doctors wererecommending you end his life?
Katherine (07:06):
Yes, yeah, it was a very.
It was just, it was so darkit's kind of one of the words
that feels appropriate for whatwas going on.
It was very dark and confusing,you know, being told like you
need to terminate this pregnancy, while also feeling my baby
move around and kick and be verymuch alive inside of my womb.
(07:30):
And as a parent, you want toprotect your children and keep
them safe, and so it was justsuch a strange existence at that
time and really the only wordsthat go far enough is that it
felt ghastly and disturbing andgrotesque and I remember just,
(07:51):
you know, after getting homewith that knowledge of that, my
baby couldn't live, but my babywas moving around and kicking.
I almost threw up.
I was so, I was so devastatedand so disturbed by that
information that I was like I'mgoing to throw up.
I'm going to throw up and justfeeling nauseated with that
(08:12):
because it just felt soincompatible.
I'm like, but wait, like mychild's moving and, and you know
, later on, you know, a coupleof days later, when we met with
the doctor and, and you know,she recommended termination, you
know that in and of itself wasalso just this ghastly
experience of like, but my babyis alive.
You know, I can, I can feel Ididn't know was a boy at the
(08:34):
time, but I can feel him movingaround and so I mean those are
really the only words that feellike they get close is just is
just disturbing.
It was, it was so dark and soheavy and and not what any
mother wants to hear.
Michelle (08:49):
Yeah, as a mother myself, I'm thinking about your
situation and putting myselfthere.
And yeah, I also think it wouldbe grotesque to think about
having to terminate the life ofmy child.
That I can feel moving aroundin my womb.
My heart goes out to you,catherine.
This is hard stuff, the hardest.
So what happened next?
Katherine (09:12):
So I'll backtrack a little bit to just the night
that we got home and I was justcompletely bereaved and just
shocked and I was thinking in mymind like I can't, I can't do
this, I cannot, I can't bearthis.
This is so painful, this is sodisturbing, I can't do it and
God, you can't ask this stuff ofme.
(09:32):
And then being kind of hit withthis realization, like I just
remember thinking in my mindlike I'm a Christian, I'm a
Christian, I, I have to live bymy convictions and belief that
this is a child.
And not only is this a child,this is a child made in the
(09:52):
image of God and therefore Ineed to dignify this life.
And that that recognition justkind of washing over me that
like I have to continue thepregnancy, like I actually have
to, I have to live by what I, bywhat I believe, and if I really
believe that this is a humanbeing and made in the image of
(10:13):
God, then I, then I'm going tocontinue this pregnancy.
Michelle (10:17):
Well, Katherine, I said in the intro that you had
authored some of the mostbeautiful blog posts, and I was
referring to those you wroteduring your pregnancy and
especially during this time ofcrisis when, when you had to, as
you say, live by yourconvictions.
From what I read, I know thatyou cried out to God in prayer
(10:37):
and that you knew this would notbe easy, but it was a decision
you felt you had to make.
You're only at the halfwaypoint in your pregnancy and you
knew that, as a baby continuedto grow and your belly continued
to be an outward indicator toothers that you were pregnant,
it would bring so manychallenging exchanges with
people.
Tell us about your emotionalstate as you grappled with all
(11:00):
of this.
Katherine (11:02):
I had basically five months left of my pregnancy.
I couldn't even fathom whatthat was going to be like
because the weight that I felt Iwas carrying already just
recognizing that my childcouldn't survive, along with
having to carry that knowledgefor five more months while also
(11:24):
progressing in my pregnancy andlooking like a normal pregnant
woman with a cute baby bump andall of those things, and knowing
that to the outside world Iwould look like any other
pregnant woman but my childcould not survive I applied my
womb.
All I knew basically had that.
Once we recognized that we weregoing to continue the pregnancy
(11:48):
, I just got to this point whereI was like the can't fathom
this.
I can't picture this.
I don't know how it's going towork, I just have to let it
happen.
It was kind of this surrender ina way of this is what I'm doing
and this is my choice, and Ijust I can't even try to muster
(12:09):
up strength or courage because Ididn't have any at all.
It was just like, okay, I'mjust going to let this happen
and let it unfold, because Idon't know.
I mean, it's not very eloquent.
It was just like I don't knowhow this is going to happen.
I was in basically like thedepths, the depths of despair at
(12:30):
that time and it was just kindof like existing.
At that time.
I didn't feel.
I didn't feel particularlyfaithful or faith-filled, I just
like this is what I'm doing.
Michelle (12:42):
Wow, that is so much to take in, and I think that
people that were eitherobserving you or who knew about
your situation, or maybe evenpeople that are listening.
Now it's easy to judge or formopinions or think what they
might do.
Like you said, it hit you oneday I'm a Christian and what do
I really believe, and how manyof us have ever been put in a
(13:04):
position like that?
It's easy to say it, but youwere living it, so you made this
decision, but along the way, afew other things happened.
You switched doctors a fewtimes and you said you made
contact with a prettyinfluential person who
empathized with you and yoursituation.
Talk about that.
Katherine (13:24):
We actually switched doctors three times and we ended
up at the University ofWashington and they were the
first doctors that we workedwith that were willing to accept
our choice to continue thepregnancy, and so we actually
sat down with I think it wasfour or five doctors before the
birth and I had kind of writtenout a flow chart of possible
(13:49):
events that could happen.
If this, then this, if he's bornalive, then we need to assess
for this particular thing and ifwe're able to stabilize him,
then let's go ahead and do this,because my hope was that in
somehow the best case of theworst case scenario we were in
was that, even though he didn'thave kidneys, if he had the
(14:11):
ureters leading from where thekidney should have been to his
bladder and if he had thearteries that needed to be
present, that perhaps if wecould stabilize him, he could be
put on dialysis until he waslarge enough to be considered
for a transplant.
There's, like one other baby, Ithink there's three babies in
(14:32):
the entire world that have eversurvived having no kidneys, and
one of them lives in Washingtonstate and is the daughter of a
congresswoman who actually I gotin touch with and she was
actually the person that got usinto the University of
Washington and got us connectedwith some of the doctors that
she knew there, and so we hadkind of this flow chart of
(14:53):
events and they accepted thatand actually said obviously
you've thought this throughreally, really deeply and we
will do what we can.
I think we will try to provideyour child with care, if there's
something that can be.
Michelle (15:09):
Well, you really did your research and you learned a
lot about your baby's conditionand the options that were before
you.
You also had the support ofthis medical team, which is
great, but there were still somepretty big challenges ahead as
you prepared for delivery.
Tell us about that time.
Katherine (15:27):
My son was breech at the time and usually they would
never let a woman deliver breech.
But given the situation theywere willing for me to decide
either a C-section or a vaginalbirth.
We felt that a C-section had ahigher likelihood of the baby
being born alive.
But then the issue with that isif a woman is given a C-section
she has to convalesce for acouple hours and our baby
(15:52):
obviously would have suchintensely high needs that he
would be whisked awayimmediately and I would not be
able to go with him.
And so we were kind of facedwith this choice of like well,
if I have a vaginal delivery hemight not survive and if I have
a C-section he might die withoutme and I wanted to be there
(16:13):
holding him.
So this whole situation thatpregnancy was just like this is
terrible, this is horrible andhorrific, these decisions.
Ultimately we decided to do avaginal birth and we prayed.
We were at the hospital, I wasin labor, we still didn't know
what we were going to do.
We just decided to pray andbring it to God and we felt a
(16:37):
lot of peace about a vaginalbirth and we were like you know,
if our son is not strong enoughto survive being born naturally
, then I don't think there areany procedures that they could
offer him that would save him atthat time.
And again, we didn't know itwas a son, but I'm using that
language because I know now thathe was our son.
And so, yeah, when I gave birth, there was a surgical, I was in
(17:01):
an operating room, even thoughI wasn't having a C-section,
just in case anything needed tobe done, and there were about 20
people standing at the foot ofmy bed as I'm in labor.
They're all in their hospitalgarb and waiting.
And then, before he was fullyborn, I noticed that everyone
disappeared, except for thedoctor and a couple nurses, and
(17:23):
I knew that he had died and thatthey, even though he wasn't
fully out, that they knew thathe was dead.
And so, you know, the doctorsaid would you like to meet your
baby?
And I was like yes, of course.
So they put him on my chest andhe yeah, he had already passed
away.
And I mean I just remembersobbing and saying I'm sorry.
(17:46):
I'm sorry because it just feltlike in that moment, like that
it was.
You know, as a mom, you justyou want to protect your
children and you know you meetyour baby and they're already
gone and I had hope so badlythat I could hold him as he
passed away and do that last actof you know, parenting your
(18:09):
child and deciding tosacrificially love them, even
through death.
And so I felt so sad that Ididn't get to hold him as he
died.
And then we also just felt Idon't know I mean other than to
say just like peace at the sametime of getting to hold him and
to know that, in a sense, likeit was over, like his, you know,
(18:32):
his journey was over and hoursand not in that long five months
was over for us to.
Obviously the pain wasn't over,but that long, long haul and
track of dealing with thatweight was coming to an end.
Michelle (18:48):
I am just so sorry thinking about that and, as mom
too, I understand and I thinkyou know.
When you and I talked before,you had trauma every step of the
way and there were so manychoices and you stayed true to
your values and what youbelieved.
And again, it was a test offaith.
And one of the things thatstruck me when we talked before
(19:11):
is you did spend I think yousaid 12 hours or something with
Simon at the hospital and then,ultimately, you had to leave,
and I understand those feelingsbecause I shared with you before
.
I had to leave my son at thehospital too, and there's
nothing worse, you know there'snothing worse on that.
(19:31):
So how did you let's just talknow about your grief a little
bit losing a son and having towalk away how did you manage
your grief and process thesorrow afterwards?
Katherine (19:44):
It's interesting because I feel like my entire
pregnancy with Simon we ended up, you know, as he's a son and we
named him Simon it was a lot ofanticipatory grieving.
So I was really worried thatafter I had my baby and if he
passed away, that I would falleven further into this like
darkness that I felt was kind ofconstantly surrounding me
(20:07):
during my entire pregnancy.
But actually what I realized isthat all of my grieving
happened almost all, I shouldsay almost all of my grieving
happened during my pregnancywith Simon and in a way, I feel
like God was so gracious andmerciful to me.
I had a lot of people saythings like you know, you need
to pray for healing and you knowthings like that.
(20:28):
And that was difficult becauseI truly felt that God was
preparing me and my husband tosay goodbye to our child.
So of course we prayed thatthere would be something that we
could do.
We prayed that the prognosiswasn't as bad as it seemed and
we hoped for that.
But we did ultimately feel astrong conviction that the Lord
(20:51):
was preparing us for our son'sdeath, and so that was kind of
what I was doing.
You know, we met him, we werewith him for 12 hours.
We bathed him, we held him.
There were a lot of things wrongthat we saw and became aware of
and it was like there wasn'tanything that we could have done
.
You know, even if we had done aC-section, you know, rec seeing
(21:14):
, seeing the needs that he had,the physical medical needs,
there wasn't anything that couldhave been done.
And so I feel like we had, wehad a lot of closure and also
just like God's presence duringour time with him was so, just
like, just so heavy and but inthe Badeway, like he was so
(21:37):
present that I used to rememberholding my son and looking at
his face and just feeling these,like, just these waves of love,
like, almost like radiatingfrom my son, but also just like
the room, like it just felt likethe Lord was with us, and I
don't want to say felt like,because the Lord was with us and
he made us able to bond withour son in a way that we weren't
(22:01):
expecting.
And so we just had so muchclosure and I realized, you know
, after everything happened andwe were home again, I still was
grieving and I was still reallystruggling and the first few
days after that were a torment.
But then I did feel like I had,I had walked through that,
(22:21):
through the valley, and that Iwas coming out of it, that I was
like, okay, I've done this.
And I feel like, ultimately,just by carrying our son and
protecting and dignifying hislife gave me such peace that I
was able to know that I did whatI could.
I did what I could, I dideverything that could possibly
(22:45):
be done, and I didn't have tolook back with any questions or
wanderings or, you know, could Ihave done more?
Was there something?
It's like I knew, I knew thatwe had done all that we could
and so we were able to kind ofwalk away from that season, not
(23:06):
without suffering or grief andpain, but also without any guilt
or fear or worry.
So when it came time to leavethe hospital, that, along with
learning our son would die, andthen, when you know, after the
20 week scan and then having toleave my child at the hospital,
(23:27):
those were the two mostgrotesque moments of the entire
pregnancy and, of course, havingto leave, simon being the worst
of the two.
It just is against everyinstinct you have as a mother to
hand your baby off to a nurseand leave and just the just how
bereft and empty we felt walkingout, I just we kept trying to
(23:51):
extend, we're like maybe we'llstay a few more hours, maybe
we'll stay another night,because the thought of what we
had to do, which is to hand himover to someone, and that we
wouldn't see him again and holdhim and just like feel his
weight and his reality and thefact that he was here, you know,
was so agonizing.
(24:12):
And I remember we just ended uphaving to do it and the nurse
standing there and she washorrified and she just kept
saying I'm so, I'm sorry, I'm sosorry.
And we handed Simon to her andhad to leave.
And I just remember, walkingout of the hospital and with our
bags and they gave me thislittle box, you know, like a
(24:38):
memory box, and it had like alittle.
We had cut some of his hair andhis you know wristband from the
hospital and I was just, youknow, we think, as we left and
people were kind of watching usas we walked by and it just was
such a strange experience, likein those moments you just like
(25:01):
recognize like the vastdifferences, like life
differences, of what people aregoing through and that you never
know like that I was.
You know, just in this I wasjust completely bereft.
But then there were, you know,women in the hall.
You know I was walking past thedoors, you know that had their
(25:22):
new baby and it just just seeing, just like the juxtaposition of
what humans experience, wasjust so strange.
And leaving that hospitalwithout our son and knowing that
you know we wouldn't see himagain, there's just nothing to
prepare for that moment and youcan't really prepare for it
other than to just it justhappens and somehow you don't
(25:45):
die because it feels like youshould, you know.
Michelle (25:48):
Yeah, and sadly I do know, I was also given a little
packet of my son's hair and,like you said, it just goes
against every maternal instinct.
We have to walk away with alittle keepsake, but without the
child that's the worst.
Thank you for walking usthrough all those emotions,
(26:12):
catherine.
So hard, but thank you.
So, Katherine, throughout ourdiscussion you shared some
really important insights thatyou learned in the depth of your
anguish.
You told us that when you wereat the deepest point of pain and
sorrow, you remembered thatyou're a Christian and that you
needed to live by theconvictions that you've always
(26:35):
held fast to.
You explained your realizationthat your baby is a child
created in the image of God andthat you therefore needed to
dignify his life.
You said you went to God inprayer at every step during this
trial and that, even though atthe time you didn't feel very
faithful or faith-filled, youknow that God heard your cries
(26:59):
and that he was walking besideyou in the valley.
You recalled your feelingsabout wanting to hold your child
as he passed away and how youwere saddened that that did not
occur, but you talked about asense of peace and of God's
presence at that dark hour.
That confirmed to you that youhad been obedient and had done
(27:20):
all you could do.
You shared the difficultmoments of grief that came along
with having to leave your sonat the hospital, as you saw
other parents rejoicing withtheir new babies.
But you recognized at thatmoment the vast differences of
what other people go through inthis life and you discovered a
new empathy and appreciation forthe difficulties we all face.
(27:42):
Katherine, what other lessonshave you learned Having been
through all of this?
Can you share with someonelistening who needs help right
now?
Katherine (27:51):
I would obviously, given my convictions, argue
that's better to choose presentand temporary suffering by
continuing the pregnancy andthen having like a lifelong
certainty and peace, than it isto choose what the doctors call
kind of a quick fix.
But I look back and God wasfaithful and he led me through a
(28:17):
wilderness of sorts and he waswith me.
Now I look back and I havecomplete freedom.
I would say to someone in myposition to trust that somehow
God will use this in a way thatyou're not expecting and that he
will carry you, because youwon't be capable on any in your
(28:41):
own strength and you can't seethe lessons right now and I
don't even want to ask you totry to see them because it's
hard.
But I would say that the Lordwill use your suffering for your
good and for his glory and thatwhen we trust God with our
(29:02):
entire lives, he is faithful toredeem those things in ways that
we're not expecting.
There's a crow by CharlesSpurgeon that says when we
cannot trace his hand.
(29:22):
We must trust his heart andmeaning what he means by that is
we don't understand what God isdoing.
We don't understand why Godallows the things that he allows
.
We can't understand it and Idon't even think we should try,
because those are hidden andthose are mysteries.
But I can trust his heart andthat it is good and that he
loves me, and so I don't need totry to trace his hand, and
(29:46):
neither do you.
But you can trust his heart foryou and trust that in time you
will be transformed and yourchild, living or dead, will be a
blessing to you and it will beused for your good and for God's
glory.
Michelle (30:04):
I love it.
Those are great lessons and youknow, when we put ourselves out
there, we don't always get anopportunity to know if our
experiences are really helpingpeople or not.
We hope and believe they are,so that's what it's all about.
So, in conclusion, you did endup with three healthy children
(30:28):
and for that I know you areeternally grateful.
Katherine (30:32):
Yes.
So that is in and of itselfincredible, and so I am very
even just moved by the fact thatwe were able to have healthy
pregnancies after such a season,and I know that not all women
will have that outcome, and so Iam careful to not equate my
(30:55):
faithfulness and my birth withSimon.
I am pregnant with Simon withthe fact that I have three
children now, because I wouldjust want to say to you another
lesson is God gives usparticular mercies.
He doesn't give us the samemercies as other people and the
same blessings, and so we haveto try to look for what are the
(31:15):
mercies, the particular merciesthat the Lord has given to me,
and they will not look likesomebody else.
Michelle (31:22):
Yes, that is so true, and we can't compare our
circumstances to others, andthat is so important to address.
Well, Katherine, at this pointI just want to say thank you so
much for agreeing to come on theshow and share your story.
It was a pleasure meeting youand getting to know you.
Katherine (31:39):
Thank you so much for having me.
Michelle (31:42):
So for those of you listening, I know this story is
a hard one.
A baby's life is so precious,and when a mother feels the
moving and kicking of her unbornchild at her womb, there's no
feeling like it in the world.
For me it was like I wasalready in love with Sean and I
hadn't even seen his face.
(32:03):
He was mine and I was his rightfrom the very start, and my
love for him just grew strongeras my belly grew larger.
That's what it's like for amother, and actually that's what
it's like for a father.
God, the Father.
He knew us before we wereformed in our mother's womb and
(32:27):
he loves you so much.
Katherine was actually quotingscripture when she said it's
better to choose this presentand temporary suffering.
In 2 Corinthians, chapter 4,verses 17 and 18, it says "For
this light and momentarysuffering is achieving for us an
eternal glory that faroutweighs them all.
(32:47):
If you know, you know I don'tknow what you're going through
right now, my friend, but I doknow that all you have to do is
call out to God and he'll beright there beside you.
He may not take away your painor circumstances, but he can
walk with you through the valleyand see you through to the
(33:07):
other side and day by day you'llget stronger and one day you'll
be able to help someone elsewith the lessons you learned and
your loss.
Thanks for listening.
Well, hey, everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
A woman who's expecting a babywill experience so many
different emotions.
When the pregnancy is plannedor hoped for, there's usually
(00:34):
great joy and happiness,expectation and gratitude, but
at the same time, there may beanxiety and fear about the
future.
What kind of parent will I be?
Will we be able to afford allthese new expenses?
Will my child be healthy?
My guest today is more thanqualified to talk about the
(00:56):
emotional turmoil that comeswith learning you're pregnant.
She and her husband hoped tostart a family one day and were
blessed to learn that they'dhave their first child back in
2017.
She was a second grade teacherat the time, and her students
were eager to share in theexcitement with her, as were her
friends and family.
Then, an ultrasound at thehalfway point revealed some very
(01:20):
difficult news.
The months that followed wouldprove to be some of the most
challenging and painful ones inher life, and the emotions she
would feel now are one she hadnever felt before.
Besides being an incrediblydetermined and courageous woman,
she is a wife, a mother and theauthor of some of the most
(01:41):
beautiful blog posts I've everread.
She's also a devoted Christianwhose faith would be truly
tested during this trial.
Her name is Katherine Yoder andit's my great honor and
privilege to have her as myguest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified Katherine.
Katherine (01:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so glad to be here, ofcourse.
Michelle (02:02):
Well, Katherine, this story is so involved and I want
the listeners to understand allthe details of what took place.
So can you start by telling usabout the day of the ultrasound
and the news you received aboutyour baby?
Katherine (02:17):
Yeah, so we had reached the halfway point and we
had my parents and my sistersover at our apartment and so
they were waiting for us to goand come back from the
appointment so we could have alittle gender reveal party,
because we had decided to findout the sex of our baby in that
appointment.
So it was just like a reallyhopeful, exciting day and I
(02:38):
remember even like choosing,like wanting to choose a cute
outfit, that kind of thing, justbecause I was so excited for
the occasion.
And so we went and we're reallyexcited and I couldn't wait to
have that iconic profile shot ofthe baby, you know, just like
the profile of the baby and likewith the black background, and
(03:00):
I was just so eager to see whatmy child looked like in the womb
and couldn't wait to know moreabout my pregnancy and who was
in there, so that we could kindof start dreaming with more
direction.
You know, are we are, we are weplanning for a little girl or a
little boy?
And so when we got into thescan and the technician started
(03:22):
scanning you know, scanning mywomb and everything I remember
being initially reallydisappointed because she started
the scan and everything wasgrayscale, almost like when you
turn to the wrong you knowchannel on a TV and it's just
that fuzzy, gray and white andblack dots everywhere and that's
basically what the entire scanlooked like.
(03:42):
There would be a few momentswhere I could see a like a hand
or an arm bone or leg bone, thatkind of thing.
But I just was thinking in myhead, man, like I must have come
to a really low power, like aplace with a really low power
machine, and I was thinking likethis technician must be really
bad at her job, like she mustnot be using the right setting
(04:05):
to kind of get that look.
So she looked around for awhile and I even mentioned, like
man, it's so blurry it's hardto see anything, and she's like,
yeah, you know, that was kindof all she said.
She left the room and came backwith another I think he was a
doctor, I didn't know that atthe time so just another
technician or someone with her,and he took a look at it and at
(04:26):
that point I started to get alittle bit worried.
And then he just turned to usand said your baby has no
kidneys and this is not a viablepregnancy.
Michelle (04:36):
Oh my gosh, that is just so much to absorb in an
instant.
I can imagine your brain musthave just been swirling with
questions and confusion andyou're thinking about a house
full of people waiting for agender reveal.
How did you even react to that?
Katherine (04:52):
It was just like I'm just total shock.
I don't think we said anything,I just was completely blank.
It's just almost like beingpunched in the face, you know,
and you're by someone that youwould never expect that from and
you're like I don't even knowhow to respond to this.
So, you know, he kind of justrepeated himself like there's
(05:15):
nothing that can be done, likethis is not a viable pregnancy
and your child will either diein utero or shortly after
they're born.
And so it just went from being,you know, just this event that
we could not wait for, to bejust, you know, just this
horrendous experience.
(05:35):
And we just walked out of there, just completely blindsided,
and really it just there aren'tvery many words that describe it
.
You know, just, very we werejust, we were so shocked,
basically, and had to returnhome with that news to my family
and that was very, veryupsetting, knowing that they
were happily waiting for us tocome in.
(05:56):
And we walked in the door andthey're like you know what is it
?
What is it?
And so excited, and I was just,you know, heaving sobs, you
know, just couldn't breathe,couldn't talk, for just how
devastated I was, and so really,that is that's the word just
like utter devastation adheringthe worst possible news that you
could really hear in anultrasound.
Michelle (06:17):
Right.
Well, I am so sorry you had togo through all of that, going
from what should have been a dayof complete happiness and
anticipation to a gut wrenchingsensation and horrific news
versus the joyful news that youwere expecting.
So you told me you saw yourdoctor shortly after the
ultrasound and that she not onlyconfirmed the condition of the
(06:40):
baby but advised immediatetermination of your pregnancy.
How did you reconcile all ofthis new information in your
mind, especially given the factthat at this stage, your baby
was already moving and kickinginside you?
Can you describe that tensionbetween knowing your child was
(07:02):
alive but that doctors wererecommending you end his life?
Katherine (07:06):
Yes, yeah, it was a very.
It was just, it was so darkit's kind of one of the words
that feels appropriate for whatwas going on.
It was very dark and confusing,you know, being told like you
need to terminate this pregnancy, while also feeling my baby
move around and kick and be verymuch alive inside of my womb.
(07:30):
And as a parent, you want toprotect your children and keep
them safe, and so it was justsuch a strange existence at that
time and really the only wordsthat go far enough is that it
felt ghastly and disturbing andgrotesque and I remember just,
(07:51):
you know, after getting homewith that knowledge of that, my
baby couldn't live, but my babywas moving around and kicking.
I almost threw up.
I was so, I was so devastatedand so disturbed by that
information that I was like I'mgoing to throw up.
I'm going to throw up and justfeeling nauseated with that
(08:12):
because it just felt soincompatible.
I'm like, but wait, like mychild's moving and, and you know
, later on, you know, a coupleof days later, when we met with
the doctor and, and you know,she recommended termination, you
know that in and of itself wasalso just this ghastly
experience of like, but my babyis alive.
You know, I can, I can feel Ididn't know was a boy at the
(08:34):
time, but I can feel him movingaround and so I mean those are
really the only words that feellike they get close is just is
just disturbing.
It was, it was so dark and soheavy and and not what any
mother wants to hear.
Michelle (08:49):
Yeah, as a mother myself, I'm thinking about your
situation and putting myselfthere.
And yeah, I also think it wouldbe grotesque to think about
having to terminate the life ofmy child.
That I can feel moving aroundin my womb.
My heart goes out to you,catherine.
This is hard stuff, the hardest.
So what happened next?
Katherine (09:12):
So I'll backtrack a little bit to just the night
that we got home and I was justcompletely bereaved and just
shocked and I was thinking in mymind like I can't, I can't do
this, I cannot, I can't bearthis.
This is so painful, this is sodisturbing, I can't do it and
God, you can't ask this stuff ofme.
(09:32):
And then being kind of hit withthis realization, like I just
remember thinking in my mindlike I'm a Christian, I'm a
Christian, I, I have to live bymy convictions and belief that
this is a child.
And not only is this a child,this is a child made in the
(09:52):
image of God and therefore Ineed to dignify this life.
And that that recognition justkind of washing over me that
like I have to continue thepregnancy, like I actually have
to, I have to live by what I, bywhat I believe, and if I really
believe that this is a humanbeing and made in the image of
(10:13):
God, then I, then I'm going tocontinue this pregnancy.
Michelle (10:17):
Well, Katherine, I said in the intro that you had
authored some of the mostbeautiful blog posts, and I was
referring to those you wroteduring your pregnancy and
especially during this time ofcrisis when, when you had to, as
you say, live by yourconvictions.
From what I read, I know thatyou cried out to God in prayer
(10:37):
and that you knew this would notbe easy, but it was a decision
you felt you had to make.
You're only at the halfwaypoint in your pregnancy and you
knew that, as a baby continuedto grow and your belly continued
to be an outward indicator toothers that you were pregnant,
it would bring so manychallenging exchanges with
people.
Tell us about your emotionalstate as you grappled with all
(11:00):
of this.
Katherine (11:02):
I had basically five months left of my pregnancy.
I couldn't even fathom whatthat was going to be like
because the weight that I felt Iwas carrying already just
recognizing that my childcouldn't survive, along with
having to carry that knowledgefor five more months while also
(11:24):
progressing in my pregnancy andlooking like a normal pregnant
woman with a cute baby bump andall of those things, and knowing
that to the outside world Iwould look like any other
pregnant woman but my childcould not survive I applied my
womb.
All I knew basically had that.
Once we recognized that we weregoing to continue the pregnancy
(11:48):
, I just got to this point whereI was like the can't fathom
this.
I can't picture this.
I don't know how it's going towork, I just have to let it
happen.
It was kind of this surrender ina way of this is what I'm doing
and this is my choice, and Ijust I can't even try to muster
(12:09):
up strength or courage because Ididn't have any at all.
It was just like, okay, I'mjust going to let this happen
and let it unfold, because Idon't know.
I mean, it's not very eloquent.
It was just like I don't knowhow this is going to happen.
I was in basically like thedepths, the depths of despair at
(12:30):
that time and it was just kindof like existing.
At that time.
I didn't feel.
I didn't feel particularlyfaithful or faith-filled, I just
like this is what I'm doing.
Michelle (12:42):
Wow, that is so much to take in, and I think that
people that were eitherobserving you or who knew about
your situation, or maybe evenpeople that are listening.
Now it's easy to judge or formopinions or think what they
might do.
Like you said, it hit you oneday I'm a Christian and what do
I really believe, and how manyof us have ever been put in a
(13:04):
position like that?
It's easy to say it, but youwere living it, so you made this
decision, but along the way, afew other things happened.
You switched doctors a fewtimes and you said you made
contact with a prettyinfluential person who
empathized with you and yoursituation.
Talk about that.
Katherine (13:24):
We actually switched doctors three times and we ended
up at the University ofWashington and they were the
first doctors that we workedwith that were willing to accept
our choice to continue thepregnancy, and so we actually
sat down with I think it wasfour or five doctors before the
birth and I had kind of writtenout a flow chart of possible
(13:49):
events that could happen.
If this, then this, if he's bornalive, then we need to assess
for this particular thing and ifwe're able to stabilize him,
then let's go ahead and do this,because my hope was that in
somehow the best case of theworst case scenario we were in
was that, even though he didn'thave kidneys, if he had the
(14:11):
ureters leading from where thekidney should have been to his
bladder and if he had thearteries that needed to be
present, that perhaps if wecould stabilize him, he could be
put on dialysis until he waslarge enough to be considered
for a transplant.
There's, like one other baby, Ithink there's three babies in
(14:32):
the entire world that have eversurvived having no kidneys, and
one of them lives in Washingtonstate and is the daughter of a
congresswoman who actually I gotin touch with and she was
actually the person that got usinto the University of
Washington and got us connectedwith some of the doctors that
she knew there, and so we hadkind of this flow chart of
(14:53):
events and they accepted thatand actually said obviously
you've thought this throughreally, really deeply and we
will do what we can.
I think we will try to provideyour child with care, if there's
something that can be.
Michelle (15:09):
Well, you really did your research and you learned a
lot about your baby's conditionand the options that were before
you.
You also had the support ofthis medical team, which is
great, but there were still somepretty big challenges ahead as
you prepared for delivery.
Tell us about that time.
Katherine (15:27):
My son was breech at the time and usually they would
never let a woman deliver breech.
But given the situation theywere willing for me to decide
either a C-section or a vaginalbirth.
We felt that a C-section had ahigher likelihood of the baby
being born alive.
But then the issue with that isif a woman is given a C-section
she has to convalesce for acouple hours and our baby
(15:52):
obviously would have suchintensely high needs that he
would be whisked awayimmediately and I would not be
able to go with him.
And so we were kind of facedwith this choice of like well,
if I have a vaginal delivery hemight not survive and if I have
a C-section he might die withoutme and I wanted to be there
(16:13):
holding him.
So this whole situation thatpregnancy was just like this is
terrible, this is horrible andhorrific, these decisions.
Ultimately we decided to do avaginal birth and we prayed.
We were at the hospital, I wasin labor, we still didn't know
what we were going to do.
We just decided to pray andbring it to God and we felt a
(16:37):
lot of peace about a vaginalbirth and we were like you know,
if our son is not strong enoughto survive being born naturally
, then I don't think there areany procedures that they could
offer him that would save him atthat time.
And again, we didn't know itwas a son, but I'm using that
language because I know now thathe was our son.
And so, yeah, when I gave birth, there was a surgical, I was in
(17:01):
an operating room, even thoughI wasn't having a C-section,
just in case anything needed tobe done, and there were about 20
people standing at the foot ofmy bed as I'm in labor.
They're all in their hospitalgarb and waiting.
And then, before he was fullyborn, I noticed that everyone
disappeared, except for thedoctor and a couple nurses, and
(17:23):
I knew that he had died and thatthey, even though he wasn't
fully out, that they knew thathe was dead.
And so, you know, the doctorsaid would you like to meet your
baby?
And I was like yes, of course.
So they put him on my chest andhe yeah, he had already passed
away.
And I mean I just remembersobbing and saying I'm sorry.
(17:46):
I'm sorry because it just feltlike in that moment, like that
it was.
You know, as a mom, you justyou want to protect your
children and you know you meetyour baby and they're already
gone and I had hope so badlythat I could hold him as he
passed away and do that last actof you know, parenting your
(18:09):
child and deciding tosacrificially love them, even
through death.
And so I felt so sad that Ididn't get to hold him as he
died.
And then we also just felt Idon't know I mean other than to
say just like peace at the sametime of getting to hold him and
to know that, in a sense, likeit was over, like his, you know,
(18:32):
his journey was over and hoursand not in that long five months
was over for us to.
Obviously the pain wasn't over,but that long, long haul and
track of dealing with thatweight was coming to an end.
Michelle (18:48):
I am just so sorry thinking about that and, as mom
too, I understand and I thinkyou know.
When you and I talked before,you had trauma every step of the
way and there were so manychoices and you stayed true to
your values and what youbelieved.
And again, it was a test offaith.
And one of the things thatstruck me when we talked before
(19:11):
is you did spend I think yousaid 12 hours or something with
Simon at the hospital and then,ultimately, you had to leave,
and I understand those feelingsbecause I shared with you before
.
I had to leave my son at thehospital too, and there's
nothing worse, you know there'snothing worse on that.
(19:31):
So how did you let's just talknow about your grief a little
bit losing a son and having towalk away how did you manage
your grief and process thesorrow afterwards?
Katherine (19:44):
It's interesting because I feel like my entire
pregnancy with Simon we ended up, you know, as he's a son and we
named him Simon it was a lot ofanticipatory grieving.
So I was really worried thatafter I had my baby and if he
passed away, that I would falleven further into this like
darkness that I felt was kind ofconstantly surrounding me
(20:07):
during my entire pregnancy.
But actually what I realized isthat all of my grieving
happened almost all, I shouldsay almost all of my grieving
happened during my pregnancywith Simon and in a way, I feel
like God was so gracious andmerciful to me.
I had a lot of people saythings like you know, you need
to pray for healing and you knowthings like that.
(20:28):
And that was difficult becauseI truly felt that God was
preparing me and my husband tosay goodbye to our child.
So of course we prayed thatthere would be something that we
could do.
We prayed that the prognosiswasn't as bad as it seemed and
we hoped for that.
But we did ultimately feel astrong conviction that the Lord
(20:51):
was preparing us for our son'sdeath, and so that was kind of
what I was doing.
You know, we met him, we werewith him for 12 hours.
We bathed him, we held him.
There were a lot of things wrongthat we saw and became aware of
and it was like there wasn'tanything that we could have done
.
You know, even if we had done aC-section, you know, rec seeing
(21:14):
, seeing the needs that he had,the physical medical needs,
there wasn't anything that couldhave been done.
And so I feel like we had, wehad a lot of closure and also
just like God's presence duringour time with him was so, just
like, just so heavy and but inthe Badeway, like he was so
(21:37):
present that I used to rememberholding my son and looking at
his face and just feeling these,like, just these waves of love,
like, almost like radiatingfrom my son, but also just like
the room, like it just felt likethe Lord was with us, and I
don't want to say felt like,because the Lord was with us and
he made us able to bond withour son in a way that we weren't
(22:01):
expecting.
And so we just had so muchclosure and I realized, you know
, after everything happened andwe were home again, I still was
grieving and I was still reallystruggling and the first few
days after that were a torment.
But then I did feel like I had,I had walked through that,
(22:21):
through the valley, and that Iwas coming out of it, that I was
like, okay, I've done this.
And I feel like, ultimately,just by carrying our son and
protecting and dignifying hislife gave me such peace that I
was able to know that I did whatI could.
I did what I could, I dideverything that could possibly
(22:45):
be done, and I didn't have tolook back with any questions or
wanderings or, you know, could Ihave done more?
Was there something?
It's like I knew, I knew thatwe had done all that we could
and so we were able to kind ofwalk away from that season, not
(23:06):
without suffering or grief andpain, but also without any guilt
or fear or worry.
So when it came time to leavethe hospital, that, along with
learning our son would die, andthen, when you know, after the
20 week scan and then having toleave my child at the hospital,
(23:27):
those were the two mostgrotesque moments of the entire
pregnancy and, of course, havingto leave, simon being the worst
of the two.
It just is against everyinstinct you have as a mother to
hand your baby off to a nurseand leave and just the just how
bereft and empty we felt walkingout, I just we kept trying to
(23:51):
extend, we're like maybe we'llstay a few more hours, maybe
we'll stay another night,because the thought of what we
had to do, which is to hand himover to someone, and that we
wouldn't see him again and holdhim and just like feel his
weight and his reality and thefact that he was here, you know,
was so agonizing.
(24:12):
And I remember we just ended uphaving to do it and the nurse
standing there and she washorrified and she just kept
saying I'm so, I'm sorry, I'm sosorry.
And we handed Simon to her andhad to leave.
And I just remember, walkingout of the hospital and with our
bags and they gave me thislittle box, you know, like a
(24:38):
memory box, and it had like alittle.
We had cut some of his hair andhis you know wristband from the
hospital and I was just, youknow, we think, as we left and
people were kind of watching usas we walked by and it just was
such a strange experience, likein those moments you just like
(25:01):
recognize like the vastdifferences, like life
differences, of what people aregoing through and that you never
know like that I was.
You know, just in this I wasjust completely bereft.
But then there were, you know,women in the hall.
You know I was walking past thedoors, you know that had their
(25:22):
new baby and it just just seeing, just like the juxtaposition of
what humans experience, wasjust so strange.
And leaving that hospitalwithout our son and knowing that
you know we wouldn't see himagain, there's just nothing to
prepare for that moment and youcan't really prepare for it
other than to just it justhappens and somehow you don't
(25:45):
die because it feels like youshould, you know.
Michelle (25:48):
Yeah, and sadly I do know, I was also given a little
packet of my son's hair and,like you said, it just goes
against every maternal instinct.
We have to walk away with alittle keepsake, but without the
child that's the worst.
Thank you for walking usthrough all those emotions,
(26:12):
catherine.
So hard, but thank you.
So, Katherine, throughout ourdiscussion you shared some
really important insights thatyou learned in the depth of your
anguish.
You told us that when you wereat the deepest point of pain and
sorrow, you remembered thatyou're a Christian and that you
needed to live by theconvictions that you've always
(26:35):
held fast to.
You explained your realizationthat your baby is a child
created in the image of God andthat you therefore needed to
dignify his life.
You said you went to God inprayer at every step during this
trial and that, even though atthe time you didn't feel very
faithful or faith-filled, youknow that God heard your cries
(26:59):
and that he was walking besideyou in the valley.
You recalled your feelingsabout wanting to hold your child
as he passed away and how youwere saddened that that did not
occur, but you talked about asense of peace and of God's
presence at that dark hour.
That confirmed to you that youhad been obedient and had done
(27:20):
all you could do.
You shared the difficultmoments of grief that came along
with having to leave your sonat the hospital, as you saw
other parents rejoicing withtheir new babies.
But you recognized at thatmoment the vast differences of
what other people go through inthis life and you discovered a
new empathy and appreciation forthe difficulties we all face.
(27:42):
Katherine, what other lessonshave you learned Having been
through all of this?
Can you share with someonelistening who needs help right
now?
Katherine (27:51):
I would obviously, given my convictions, argue
that's better to choose presentand temporary suffering by
continuing the pregnancy andthen having like a lifelong
certainty and peace, than it isto choose what the doctors call
kind of a quick fix.
But I look back and God wasfaithful and he led me through a
(28:17):
wilderness of sorts and he waswith me.
Now I look back and I havecomplete freedom.
I would say to someone in myposition to trust that somehow
God will use this in a way thatyou're not expecting and that he
will carry you, because youwon't be capable on any in your
(28:41):
own strength and you can't seethe lessons right now and I
don't even want to ask you totry to see them because it's
hard.
But I would say that the Lordwill use your suffering for your
good and for his glory and thatwhen we trust God with our
(29:02):
entire lives, he is faithful toredeem those things in ways that
we're not expecting.
There's a crow by CharlesSpurgeon that says when we
cannot trace his hand.
(29:22):
We must trust his heart andmeaning what he means by that is
we don't understand what God isdoing.
We don't understand why Godallows the things that he allows
.
We can't understand it and Idon't even think we should try,
because those are hidden andthose are mysteries.
But I can trust his heart andthat it is good and that he
loves me, and so I don't need totry to trace his hand, and
(29:46):
neither do you.
But you can trust his heart foryou and trust that in time you
will be transformed and yourchild, living or dead, will be a
blessing to you and it will beused for your good and for God's
glory.
Michelle (30:04):
I love it.
Those are great lessons and youknow, when we put ourselves out
there, we don't always get anopportunity to know if our
experiences are really helpingpeople or not.
We hope and believe they are,so that's what it's all about.
So, in conclusion, you did endup with three healthy children
(30:28):
and for that I know you areeternally grateful.
Katherine (30:32):
Yes.
So that is in and of itselfincredible, and so I am very
even just moved by the fact thatwe were able to have healthy
pregnancies after such a season,and I know that not all women
will have that outcome, and so Iam careful to not equate my
(30:55):
faithfulness and my birth withSimon.
I am pregnant with Simon withthe fact that I have three
children now, because I wouldjust want to say to you another
lesson is God gives usparticular mercies.
He doesn't give us the samemercies as other people and the
same blessings, and so we haveto try to look for what are the
(31:15):
mercies, the particular merciesthat the Lord has given to me,
and they will not look likesomebody else.
Michelle (31:22):
Yes, that is so true, and we can't compare our
circumstances to others, andthat is so important to address.
Well, Katherine, at this pointI just want to say thank you so
much for agreeing to come on theshow and share your story.
It was a pleasure meeting youand getting to know you.
Katherine (31:39):
Thank you so much for having me.
Michelle (31:42):
So for those of you listening, I know this story is
a hard one.
A baby's life is so precious,and when a mother feels the
moving and kicking of her unbornchild at her womb, there's no
feeling like it in the world.
For me it was like I wasalready in love with Sean and I
hadn't even seen his face.
(32:03):
He was mine and I was his rightfrom the very start, and my
love for him just grew strongeras my belly grew larger.
That's what it's like for amother, and actually that's what
it's like for a father.
God, the Father.
He knew us before we wereformed in our mother's womb and
(32:27):
he loves you so much.
Katherine was actually quotingscripture when she said it's
better to choose this presentand temporary suffering.
In 2 Corinthians, chapter 4,verses 17 and 18, it says "For
this light and momentarysuffering is achieving for us an
eternal glory that faroutweighs them all.
(32:47):
If you know, you know I don'tknow what you're going through
right now, my friend, but I doknow that all you have to do is
call out to God and he'll beright there beside you.
He may not take away your painor circumstances, but he can
walk with you through the valleyand see you through to the
(33:07):
other side and day by day you'llget stronger and one day you'll
be able to help someone elsewith the lessons you learned and
your loss.
Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!