June 16, 2023 • 32 mins
What if I told you that you could transform your mental health through the power of daily text messages? Join me for a powerful conversation with my guest, Johnny Crowder, a suicide and abuse survivor who has turned his pain into purpose by creating Cope Notes, a text-based mental health platform that's now supporting users in nearly 100 countries across the globe.
Johnny shares his journey through depression and the impact of growing up in an abusive home, revealing how music and art provided an emotional outlet he desperately needed. We also explore the crucial role of asking for help in reducing recovery time and how Johnny's faith in God, combined with the support of his church community, helped him find hope, healing, and the motivation to help others.
Don't miss this inspiring episode as we dive deep into Johnny's story and the mission behind Cope Notes. Together, we reflect on the importance of empathy and understanding in supporting those struggling with mental health challenges and challenge you to take action, making a positive difference in your own life and the lives of others.
https://copenotes.com/
https://johnnycrowder.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:10):
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
As children, if we grew up in ahome with anger, disrespect and
(00:30):
ongoing turmoil, we would learnthat life is that way.
We believe that shouting isokay and that outbursts of anger
are normal because it's all weknow, until we get older and we
see the world around us and werealize that our friends' homes
are different than ours, and wemight even think something's
(00:52):
wrong with them, not us.
Growing up in an abusive homecan have a devastating impact on
a young person, and they mayexperience loss when they
realize it could have beendifferent, it should have been
different, and sometimes theygrieve the loss of the life they
(01:12):
wish they could have had.
Well, my guest today grew up inan environment like that And, as
a result, he experienced deepsadness and depression that
overshadowed his life for manyyears.
But today he's not only emergedstronger and more aware, but
he's helping other people whoare struggling with mental
(01:34):
health issues.
He's a 28-year-old suicide andabuse survivor, a TEDx speaker,
touring musician, mental healthadvocate and the founder and CEO
of Cope Notes, a text-basedmental health platform that
provides daily support to usersin nearly 100 countries across
(01:56):
the globe.
With 10 years of clinicaltreatment, a psychology degree
from University of CentralFlorida and a full decade of
peer-support and advocacythrough the National Alliance on
Mental Illness under his belt,he's more than qualified to
share his experience with others, and he'll do that with us
today.
(02:17):
His name is Johnny Crowder, andit's my great honor and
privilege to have him as myguest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified Johnny.
Johnny (02:26):
Thank you for having me.
Michelle (02:29):
Of course.
Well, hey, when we first met, ireally grilled you about your
upbringing because I wanted toknow more about the environment
that contributed to yourdepression.
So can you just start bytelling us what it was like
growing up in your home and howit was different than the homes
of some of your friends?
Johnny (02:49):
So growing up I felt like, have you ever played
paintball?
Yeah, it kind of felt like youfeel when you play paintball.
You never feel 100% safe.
Even if you're hiding behindsomething, you're like, oh, a
stray paintball could stillcatch me, or you're trying to be
(03:10):
quiet and sneak around.
I mean, it was very much likethat in my home.
I think my strategy was, if Icould be out of sight, hopefully
I would be out of mind.
So I would try to keep tomyself and stay out of harm's
way, not attract attention, evento the point where if I heard
my parents pulling in to thedriveway, i would kind of run to
(03:34):
my room because I didn't wantto be in the living room, i
didn't want to be seen, and thatwas really.
I mean, it's probably why Ilove being on stage today and
being creative and very outgoing, because I didn't have a lot of
that grown up.
But I remember going to some ofmy friend's house and seeing
quite the opposite.
(03:55):
Their dad would come home andthey'd rush to the door and be
like what's up, dad, how wasyour trip Or how was work?
And I was like what's happening?
And their dads would sit withthem at the dinner table and
they'd have dinner as a familyand I'm like what is this?
This is really weird.
Like you have dinner with yourdad.
You know, it was definitely inthe intro that you shared.
I really related to the ideathat I thought there was
(04:16):
something wrong with my friends'families.
I'm like, wow, you guys arereally weird, you know.
Michelle (04:21):
Yeah, that's hard and very sad.
Well, tell us a little bit moreabout the emotional state that
you found yourself in at thelowest point in your life, and
how did you cope with yourfeelings back then.
Johnny (04:35):
So the lowest point of my life was like a 20 year
period.
So it's not like I had this daywhere I was like, oh, this is
the worst day.
It was like sustained long term, like deep, hopeless depression
, and I think I had a beliefthat it would never get better.
(05:00):
I genuinely thought if it wasgoing to improve, it probably
would have already happened.
I would have seen signs that itwould improve by now.
So I just figured like I amdoomed.
This is the way my life is,this is the way my family is,
this is the way my brain is.
The world is an unsafe placethat doesn't love me.
(05:21):
And it came with a lot of theseideas that If only I could be
smarter, if only I could befunnier, if only I could be more
handsome, or if only I couldget better grades or better at
football or whatever.
I figured that I was beingtreated that way and my life was
(05:42):
that way because I was doingsomething wrong.
If only I could be a little bitbetter, then maybe I could save
myself from the challenges Iwas facing.
Obviously, that's not true.
Anyone listening to this waslike dude, it was nothing.
It's not because yourseven-year-old self got to be in
(06:02):
math.
That's not why all this ishappening.
But when you're a kid you'relike I wonder if it's something
I'm doing.
The way I coped that's how Ifelt The way I coped was
primarily art.
I would draw, i would playguitar, i would drum on the desk
(06:22):
in my room, i would listen tothe—I had a big boombox.
Whenever when boomboxes werecool.
I had a great big boombox in myliving room with a cassette
player in it and I would borrowmy mom's.
She had a Beverly Hills NinjaII soundtrack that I would put
in.
She had it on cassette andAerosmith's greatest hits on
(06:45):
cassette that I would put in acassette player and listen to
the radio.
There's something about art andmusic and writing thing, comedy
, like that creative.
I wasn't worried that my artwas bad because I wasn't
thinking about grading it, thesame way that I was like, oh, if
(07:09):
only I could be better atfootball, if only I could get
better grades.
All those things felt verygraded and performance based.
But when I created art I wasn'tthinking about grading it, i
was just expressing myself.
Michelle (07:21):
I think it's great that you found a creative outlet
and that it helped to removeyou from the negativity and
allowed you to express yourselfwithout judgment.
Let's talk about musicspecifically, because you told
me you were in a band back thenand that music had a huge impact
on your life.
Then the band broke up.
Can you talk about that timeand how you felt about the break
(07:43):
up?
Johnny (07:47):
There was a time in my life where almost everybody who
knew me 99% of people who knewme knew me as the guy from Dark
Sermon.
Dark Sermon was the name of myband.
People didn't know me as Johnny.
They knew me as the guy fromDark Sermon.
When Dark Sermon breaks up andI had trust me I did everything
(08:09):
I could to keep the bandtogether.
I really wanted music to workmore than anything.
It was especially in that band.
I had been there since day one.
I designed our album covers andour merchandise and I wrote all
our lyrics.
I was so invested on tour, 200plus days a year on the road,
(08:31):
different city every night.
It was such a cornerstone of myidentity that I actually feel
that I was over-investing in mymusic career and under-investing
in my own self, like myrecovery, my own wellness, my
(08:51):
own health.
I think I leaned so much intothe outlet of music that I
turned something healthy intosomething unhealthy because I
became dependent on it.
I was like if this band isn'tsuccessful, then that means I'm
not valuable.
A lot of people listening feelthat way about their families or
(09:12):
their careers or any part oftheir life.
Their bank account balance, theweight that the scale says We
all associate our worth tothings that I don't think are
representative of our worth.
When the band broke up, i feltlike I had lost my only utility
(09:36):
to the world.
I was like the only reason I'veeven stayed alive was to play
music.
Now I lose the one way thatI've found that I can contribute
to the world and feel valuable.
I felt it was really difficultto explain to people that I
actually felt like I was losingmy identity and I was becoming
(09:59):
nobody Not a nobody, becausethat's not what I mean.
I'm like oh, i didn't have aname, i wasn't on stage, but I
felt like I was losing what mademe me and I realized oh no, i
haven't invested in myself, i'vejust been investing in this
project that could be taken awayfrom me at any time.
Michelle (10:20):
I love what you said about how we can tie our worth
to things like money, ourfamilies, our careers, our
weight.
I think most of us can relatein some way to those feelings
and you're so right.
It's really unhealthy becausepeople and things can be taken
away from us at any time.
So, johnny, because of your ownmental health issues and then
(10:42):
the clinical treatment youreceived and then your recovery,
you're passionate about helpingother people and you built this
company where you use textmessages to improve mental and
emotional health.
Tell us what you set out toachieve with COPE Notes and how
it's helping people.
Johnny (11:00):
I'm always very clear about this.
I did not set out to create acompany, so I didn't want to
start a business.
I didn't want to be a CEO.
That was not.
I mean, i want to be a rockstar.
I didn't want to run ahealthcare technology startup.
That sounded like the dirtiestthing in the world to me.
I just wanted to play metal.
(11:20):
What I really set out to do wascreate something, so it was
still creative to me.
Just like I create a song orcreate a short story or create a
painting or a sculpture, i waslike I'm going to create
something that helps people feelbetter, and in fact, that is my
life motto.
It's the driving force of mylife.
(11:43):
I'm going to create stuff thathelps people feel better, and
that's how I feel about anythingI write, or my keynotes or
music or whatever.
So really, the idea was I wantto create something that helps
people feel better, and I made avery rudimentary beta version
that I ran myself for free, fromthe first day I started on it
(12:08):
to the first day I took apaycheck was almost five years,
so I spent literally Lord knowshow many hours countless,
countless, countless hoursbuilding something just for the
sake of seeing it come to life,not knowing that eventually it
would be a resource that's usedby a lot of people and that
(12:31):
provides a living for me and ourstaff.
Michelle (12:34):
Well, that's amazing.
Congratulations on hanging inthere.
Johnny (12:38):
I can't believe I did I always.
Whenever people ask me what themost impressive, what I think
I'm most proud of, they're likeis it Ted talks?
Is it your band charting onbillboard?
Is it getting like closing yourmillions dollar in revenue?
And I'm like no, no, no, themost impressive thing I've ever
(12:58):
done is not quit.
I always tell people becausepeople ask like why, when it was
so difficult, why didn't yougive up?
And I said I remember what itwas like to not have support.
I remember it clear as day,like there's yes right.
I can't imagine just saying well, it's too hard, too hard, it's
(13:19):
like no way.
Michelle (13:21):
That's so encouraging.
After what you went through,it's amazing that you had that
kind of perseverance, and Iremember feeling that way myself
after my son died, like whatchoice do I have?
I have to keep going And then,ultimately, to help other people
with your experience is such agreat thing.
So, johnny, when we talkedbefore, i told you that faith
(13:42):
played a huge role in my healingfrom my grief and sadness.
What role, if any, did faith inGod play in your recovery?
Johnny (13:52):
So huge role.
The main thing that I tellpeople I have a lot of friends
who don't believe in God.
I'm pretty new to the God thing.
I just I showed up to the partylike seven years ago.
So I spent a good you know two,two plus decades just not being
interested, didn't want to hearabout it, didn't want to learn
(14:14):
about it.
I'm very closed off and I havea lot of friends who are still
in that camp And I always tellthem the biggest difference that
faith made for me in myrecovery is before.
My recovery was about like thewhole world revolves around me,
like if I failed, then life wasterrible and the world sucks.
(14:38):
And you know, once you realizethat you're not the center of
the universe and that the worlddoesn't revolve around you, and
you realize Like if you are theGod of your own life which many
people, that's how they operate,that's how I operate it for
(14:58):
many years.
I am God, i am the God of myown life.
I make all the decisions, it'sall on me.
When you fail, the God of youruniverse fails And people like
you and me fail constantly,multiple times per day.
I mean we are doubling,tripling up on failures happens
all the time we spill coffee, weget in fender benders, we send
(15:21):
a rude email that we didn't meanto send, like this stuff
happens to all of us becausewe're people And when I was
working on getting healthier, iwas so relieved to know that,
even if I have a bad day, oreven if I have a bad week or
month, or I relapse or whatever,there's a God of the universe
(15:43):
that loves me, regardless of myperformance.
The weight of the world, thefate of the universe, does not
hang on the shoulders of a 23year old with schizophrenia,
because if it does, we're all introuble, right.
But learning that there is aGod who is above me, sees things
(16:04):
I can't see, loves me in waysthat I don't yet love myself, i
can't explain how liberating itwas.
It actually helped me focusmore on my recovery because I
was less focused on damagecontrol and trying to keep
everything together, knowingthat God would kind of cover
that base, you know.
Michelle (16:24):
Yeah, that's so true.
For years that's how I operatedtoo.
I mean trying to controleverything.
and then you're sort of facedwith hey, i can do nothing about
this, this is out of my control.
I had to learn that the hardway too.
So we talked about your homelife and how difficult things
were between you and yourparents.
So today you're featured on TEDTalks all over the internet.
(16:47):
You're highly sought after forspeaking engagements.
You're the founder and CEO ofCope Notes.
Given that your success is sovisible, how has your family
reacted to it all?
Johnny (16:59):
It's been mixed.
It depends on which failingmember you're consulting.
I don't even know.
Actually, there are somemoments when I feel really
supported by my family, like mymom came to see my band and she
actually came to see my band nottoo long ago, like last month,
(17:21):
and did a stage dive, jumped offthe stage and people carried
her and stuff.
She's like 60.
I feel like, oh, it was justthe coolest thing ever.
And there's times when I justdid a talk for General Mills, i
just did a keynote for them, andthey put me on a Wheaties box.
I took a picture with theWheaties box and my little
brother shared it on hisFacebook.
(17:42):
Little stuff like that willshow me like they're supporting
in their own way.
When we get together we don'ttalk a lot about I think it's a
little bit uncomfortable foreverybody.
Still, i don't think everyone'slike, oh yeah, tell us more
about how you've recovered fromsevere mental illness.
(18:02):
I don't think that because wewere all there, right, you know
family like that, seeing family,can bring up difficult memories
.
I think there is a degree ofavoidance that all of us kind of
engage in.
I don't even think that we knowwe're doing it.
So it's tough because my workcenters around recovery and
(18:26):
these really challenging topicsAnd I think my family is not
always the quickest to be likeoh yeah, tell us more about all
of this, what are you doing?
I think they're kind of like Isee you doing your thing, i get
that, it's good.
I'm not really ready to jump inand have that whole
conversation yet And I pray toGod every day that there's more
(18:51):
and more of an opportunity forme to share my recovery with
them and for them to kind ofhopefully apply some of the
things that have helped me towhether they choose to get sober
or choose to engage in therapyor like I mean, how cool would
that be, even if it takes 10years or 20 years?
how cool would that be to get aphone call and say like, hey, i
(19:13):
just booked a therapyappointment?
I'd be like, oh amazing.
Michelle (19:17):
Yeah, that would be amazing And an answer to your
prayers, I'm sure.
So I'm curious how you wentfrom the place where you were to
this place of being sold outfor Jesus.
How were you first introducedto a relationship with God?
Johnny (19:33):
So first I was first introduced by my parents taking
me to Catholic Church, whichdidn't stick I just really for a
bunch of reasons, and then Iwas pretty closed off for a long
time when.
I was.
So I remember two things reallystood out as like challenges
(19:54):
with the church.
Well, three I guess.
One was I didn't see thebehavior of my family lining up
with what I was hearing atchurch.
So I was like I don't reallyget it.
Like we're in church on Sundayand they say treat others with
kindness and do no harm, andthen during the week I'm getting
beat up Like I don't know how Ifeel about that.
And then so that was number one.
Number two was I found out thatthere was a choir director that
(20:20):
was fired after they discoveredthat he was gay And I was like,
well then, i'm not going tothis church because if he can't
work here then I don't.
I just don't, i don't even wantto be here if it's that
exclusionary And if it's like,oh, jesus is only for certain
people And they had somechurches in Florida wouldn't do
like interracial marriages andstuff.
(20:41):
I mean it was like some pretty,it was like some Wild West
Hortest Now that like level ofsocial exclusion and like the
total opposite of what I read inthe gospel.
And then the third thing was onI was hallucinating a lot.
I had severe paranoidschizophrenia.
(21:02):
I was experiencing auditory andvisual hallucinations
pervasively.
So I was literally seeingdemons and the devil.
I'll never be able to explainwhat that experience was like
And all of that took me fromfaith.
I was angry at church, i wasangry at religion, i was angry
at God, but then I didn'tbelieve in God at the same time.
(21:24):
So that's a weird oxymoron.
And then I was reintroduced tofaith When I went to visit a
friend of mine.
She works at a church inNashville And she just said she
tricked me.
She said come meet me at workAnd I was like cool, where are
you?
I was on tour And she gave methe address.
(21:45):
I show up and it's a church AndI'm like this lady and I go in
and it's not a service oranything.
She was just working there.
And then she was like oh, youcan sit in on this discipleship
class that they're doing andwait for me to finish.
And I was like I can't believeit.
So I just go sit in this roomand keep in mind I'm wearing
this.
Oh, this is such a good story.
So I'm wearing this hoodie thatsays Aborted, really big on the
(22:09):
front.
It's this death metal band thatwe're touring with from Belgium
And all these down the arms ofthe hoodie it's upside down
cross pentagram, upside downcross pentagram, upside down
cross pentagram.
So I'm wearing this likeclearly satanic like outfit And
I didn't know I was going to achurch.
I'm like, oops, that's all meAnd so I go in.
(22:32):
And these people in this churchwere kind to me.
They were not nice Like agreeter at Walmart Being nice to
you.
They were kind, they listened,they showed me, they took me and
I was not interested to hearabout Jesus or anything like
that.
They were just.
(22:53):
They showed me such kindness.
I was like why aren't theytreating me poorly?
Like I'm covering tattoos, i'mdressed like this, I don't
believe in God.
Why aren't they judging me andkicking me out?
And I was so confused by theirkindness.
And then they what really thisis what the real catalyst was
was they were reading about thePharisees.
(23:15):
So if anyone is not familiarwith the Bible, there's this
group of people like religiousleaders who were very like
finger wagging, like, oh, youhave to dress this way, you have
to follow these religious laws.
And then Jesus comes tointerrupt that whole thing and
kind of flip, disrupt theprevailing religious leadership
of the day.
And when I was hearing that, iwas like wait, but I thought
(23:38):
Jesus came around and wagged hisfinger and said here's how you
should all be.
And I was.
When I was hearing that I waslike, oh, jesus is the like DIY
punk that comes in and likeflips the establishment upside
down.
I'm like whoa, jesus is themost punk thing ever.
So in a funny way, it was likemy first reintroduction to
(24:00):
realizing that the behavior thatI had seen from quote unquote
religious people actuallymatched with the quote unquote
religious people of the days ofthe Bible, like the Pharisees,
and I realized Jesus and I wereon the same side of that
argument And I was like whoa, ihave completely misunderstood
the gospel for a quarter century.
Michelle (24:22):
Wow, that is a great story.
I'm so glad you shared that AndI love that your friend invited
you to her work.
Johnny (24:28):
And she didn't even do it on purpose.
She said I knew you wouldn'tknow where the church was, So I
gave you the address.
She like was not trying totrick me, but it being like the
most brilliant thing inretrospect.
Michelle (24:42):
Yeah, well, we know who the master mind behind that
one was.
Johnny (24:45):
Yeah, genius.
Michelle (24:47):
Well, johnny, i'm thinking about all the great
things you had to share duringour discussion so far, and
there's been so much that Ithink will be valuable to so
many.
You talked about how art andmusic and writing were creative
outlets that helped you expressyourself, and how they often
relieve the feelings of notbeing good enough.
You said at one point yourealized your identity was tied
(25:11):
to being a musician, and youexplained how unhealthy it can
be to attach ourselves tosomething that can be taken away
.
You shared your memories of atime when you had no support
network to turn to and how itcompelled you to be there for
others in need.
You told us about the role offaith in your life and how it
(25:32):
helped you to understand theidea of giving control to God
because he loves us, regardlessof our performance, and how,
even though you were angry atGod and angry at religion
because of the trauma youendured, you ultimately found
acceptance and genuine love whenyou met other believers who
welcomed you without judgment.
(25:52):
Johnny, can you share a couplemore of the big life lessons you
learned having been through allof this?
that might help someonelistening who might be
struggling with adversity anddepression right now.
Johnny (26:05):
So two things come to mind immediately.
I'm literally writing a bookthat's going to take the rest of
my life, so it's not going tobe out anytime soon, but I'm
writing a book about all thethings that I've learned and
it's broken up by lesson.
I learned this lesson the hardway.
I learned this lesson the hardway And two things jump to mind
immediately.
One is if you can getcomfortable shamelessly asking
(26:30):
for help, you can recover wayfaster.
Like you can shrink yourrecovery timeline by two thirds.
Like you can, i mean, imagine,do you wanna spend 30 years
struggling with this?
or 10 years, or three years?
Like how?
the thing that really allowsyou to put your finger on the
(26:52):
scale of the rate of yourrecovery, at least in my opinion
.
my experience has been my ownwillingness to request and
receive assistance from otherpeople.
And there's dude, there's apride in me that says I don't
need help.
What's this lady gonna teach methat I already know?
And oh, i'm not the type ofperson who does therapy or
(27:14):
journaling.
Are you kidding me?
Like, if you can get past thatand you can get comfortable
asking for help and receivinghelp, you are shaving years or
decades off of how long it willtake you to recover.
The second one is something thatI really needed to hear is I
(27:39):
wish somebody would have goneback in time and told me you
don't know that it won't getbetter, like I was so convinced.
I was like yesterday sucked andtoday sucked, and I know that
tomorrow's gonna suck.
And I wish somebody would sayyou don't know that.
There's no way, that you haveno evidence that tomorrow will
(28:00):
suck.
It is.
unless you are the first personever to be able to divine the
future, then you.
there's a 50% chance thattomorrow's gonna be better than
today.
It's a coin flip And if you flipa coin, statistically speaking,
if you flip it enough times,you will get a heads guaranteed.
(28:21):
So I wish I would have embracedthis idea that each day, each
new day, is a totally freshopportunity, just like each coin
slip is not affected by theprevious coin slip.
There's not such a thing asmomentum or like a hot streak
and gambling.
Each time you flip it it's evenodds 50-50.
(28:43):
So I wish I would have embracedthat idea earlier that, even if
the first 20 years of my lifehave been torturous and just the
most painful, i think I canimagine tomorrow I could fall in
love.
tomorrow I could win thelottery.
tomorrow I could try the firstmedication that's actually
(29:07):
helped me after years of tryingto find the white one.
Like I wish I would have beenmore open to tomorrow being
better than today.
Michelle (29:17):
I love it so good.
Each new day is a totally freshopportunity, great.
So, johnny, before we close, iwould love you to just take a
minute and summarize what CopeNotes offers to people who need
support.
Tell us what these textmessages are all about and how
they work.
Johnny (29:35):
What Cope Notes does for people who listen and are like,
wait a second, i don't reallyhave context in the like.
This guy started a company andwhat exactly does it do?
So all we do in a sentence, iswe send randomly timed text
messages that interrupt negativethought patterns and train the
brain to think healthierthoughts.
So that's what we do.
(29:56):
If you wanna try it for free,you can go to copenotescom and
give it a spin, or you can givea subscription to a friend or
family member.
You know, i think a lot ofpeople will listen to something
like this and then they go backto their daily life and they
continue doing it just like theydid it before, and they don't
(30:16):
allow the conversation to changetheir life.
They don't go listen to asecond episode, they don't call
a friend or family member, theydon't change when they set their
alarm or the way that they eator the way that they.
You know they're missing anopportunity Each time.
You, if you just spent a halfhour listening to a conversation
(30:37):
like this, it says somethingabout you.
It says that you're the type ofperson who cares enough to make
changes in their life and thelives of others.
So my encouragement andchallenge to you is do anything
Like, take an action.
And I don't even care if it iscopenotes.
If you sign up for copenotes,great, give it a spin.
(30:58):
It's anonymous, so I won't evenknow that you did it, so no
pressure.
But if you choose to buy a book, if you choose to book a
therapy session, if you chooseto try doing a dry month, so no
alcohol for an entire month,like whatever you're, even one
night, whatever you choose to do, just please, for the love of
(31:20):
God and all that is holy,leverage what you just heard to
make some degree of change inyour life.
Take an action.
Don't let this just be apodcast episode.
Let it be a catalyst.
Michelle (31:33):
Yeah, that's so good.
A lot of times, many of us justmove on after a motivating
discussion and do nothing.
Thank you for stating that sowell and for encouraging
listeners to take some smallstep today that'll produce
positive results in their life.
Johnny, thank you so much foragreeing to come on the show
today and for sharing yourdeeply personal story.
(31:54):
I truly appreciate your honestyand all that you're doing to
help people.
Johnny (31:58):
Thank you for having me And, i think, most importantly,
thank you to the folks who arelistening for being here with us
.
Michelle (32:06):
So, for those of you listening, johnny issued a
challenge for us today.
He said take an action, read abook, make a therapy appointment
, try a dry month, leverage whatyou just heard to make some
degree of change in your life.
Don't just let this be apodcast episode, let it be a
(32:27):
catalyst.
So good, and that is my prayerfor you as well today.
My friend, be well.
Thanks for listening.
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
As children, if we grew up in ahome with anger, disrespect and
(00:30):
ongoing turmoil, we would learnthat life is that way.
We believe that shouting isokay and that outbursts of anger
are normal because it's all weknow, until we get older and we
see the world around us and werealize that our friends' homes
are different than ours, and wemight even think something's
(00:52):
wrong with them, not us.
Growing up in an abusive homecan have a devastating impact on
a young person, and they mayexperience loss when they
realize it could have beendifferent, it should have been
different, and sometimes theygrieve the loss of the life they
(01:12):
wish they could have had.
Well, my guest today grew up inan environment like that And, as
a result, he experienced deepsadness and depression that
overshadowed his life for manyyears.
But today he's not only emergedstronger and more aware, but
he's helping other people whoare struggling with mental
(01:34):
health issues.
He's a 28-year-old suicide andabuse survivor, a TEDx speaker,
touring musician, mental healthadvocate and the founder and CEO
of Cope Notes, a text-basedmental health platform that
provides daily support to usersin nearly 100 countries across
(01:56):
the globe.
With 10 years of clinicaltreatment, a psychology degree
from University of CentralFlorida and a full decade of
peer-support and advocacythrough the National Alliance on
Mental Illness under his belt,he's more than qualified to
share his experience with others, and he'll do that with us
today.
(02:17):
His name is Johnny Crowder, andit's my great honor and
privilege to have him as myguest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified Johnny.
Johnny (02:26):
Thank you for having me.
Michelle (02:29):
Of course.
Well, hey, when we first met, ireally grilled you about your
upbringing because I wanted toknow more about the environment
that contributed to yourdepression.
So can you just start bytelling us what it was like
growing up in your home and howit was different than the homes
of some of your friends?
Johnny (02:49):
So growing up I felt like, have you ever played
paintball?
Yeah, it kind of felt like youfeel when you play paintball.
You never feel 100% safe.
Even if you're hiding behindsomething, you're like, oh, a
stray paintball could stillcatch me, or you're trying to be
(03:10):
quiet and sneak around.
I mean, it was very much likethat in my home.
I think my strategy was, if Icould be out of sight, hopefully
I would be out of mind.
So I would try to keep tomyself and stay out of harm's
way, not attract attention, evento the point where if I heard
my parents pulling in to thedriveway, i would kind of run to
(03:34):
my room because I didn't wantto be in the living room, i
didn't want to be seen, and thatwas really.
I mean, it's probably why Ilove being on stage today and
being creative and very outgoing, because I didn't have a lot of
that grown up.
But I remember going to some ofmy friend's house and seeing
quite the opposite.
(03:55):
Their dad would come home andthey'd rush to the door and be
like what's up, dad, how wasyour trip Or how was work?
And I was like what's happening?
And their dads would sit withthem at the dinner table and
they'd have dinner as a familyand I'm like what is this?
This is really weird.
Like you have dinner with yourdad.
You know, it was definitely inthe intro that you shared.
I really related to the ideathat I thought there was
(04:16):
something wrong with my friends'families.
I'm like, wow, you guys arereally weird, you know.
Michelle (04:21):
Yeah, that's hard and very sad.
Well, tell us a little bit moreabout the emotional state that
you found yourself in at thelowest point in your life, and
how did you cope with yourfeelings back then.
Johnny (04:35):
So the lowest point of my life was like a 20 year
period.
So it's not like I had this daywhere I was like, oh, this is
the worst day.
It was like sustained long term, like deep, hopeless depression
, and I think I had a beliefthat it would never get better.
(05:00):
I genuinely thought if it wasgoing to improve, it probably
would have already happened.
I would have seen signs that itwould improve by now.
So I just figured like I amdoomed.
This is the way my life is,this is the way my family is,
this is the way my brain is.
The world is an unsafe placethat doesn't love me.
(05:21):
And it came with a lot of theseideas that If only I could be
smarter, if only I could befunnier, if only I could be more
handsome, or if only I couldget better grades or better at
football or whatever.
I figured that I was beingtreated that way and my life was
(05:42):
that way because I was doingsomething wrong.
If only I could be a little bitbetter, then maybe I could save
myself from the challenges Iwas facing.
Obviously, that's not true.
Anyone listening to this waslike dude, it was nothing.
It's not because yourseven-year-old self got to be in
(06:02):
math.
That's not why all this ishappening.
But when you're a kid you'relike I wonder if it's something
I'm doing.
The way I coped that's how Ifelt The way I coped was
primarily art.
I would draw, i would playguitar, i would drum on the desk
(06:22):
in my room, i would listen tothe—I had a big boombox.
Whenever when boomboxes werecool.
I had a great big boombox in myliving room with a cassette
player in it and I would borrowmy mom's.
She had a Beverly Hills NinjaII soundtrack that I would put
in.
She had it on cassette andAerosmith's greatest hits on
(06:45):
cassette that I would put in acassette player and listen to
the radio.
There's something about art andmusic and writing thing, comedy
, like that creative.
I wasn't worried that my artwas bad because I wasn't
thinking about grading it, thesame way that I was like, oh, if
(07:09):
only I could be better atfootball, if only I could get
better grades.
All those things felt verygraded and performance based.
But when I created art I wasn'tthinking about grading it, i
was just expressing myself.
Michelle (07:21):
I think it's great that you found a creative outlet
and that it helped to removeyou from the negativity and
allowed you to express yourselfwithout judgment.
Let's talk about musicspecifically, because you told
me you were in a band back thenand that music had a huge impact
on your life.
Then the band broke up.
Can you talk about that timeand how you felt about the break
(07:43):
up?
Johnny (07:47):
There was a time in my life where almost everybody who
knew me 99% of people who knewme knew me as the guy from Dark
Sermon.
Dark Sermon was the name of myband.
People didn't know me as Johnny.
They knew me as the guy fromDark Sermon.
When Dark Sermon breaks up andI had trust me I did everything
(08:09):
I could to keep the bandtogether.
I really wanted music to workmore than anything.
It was especially in that band.
I had been there since day one.
I designed our album covers andour merchandise and I wrote all
our lyrics.
I was so invested on tour, 200plus days a year on the road,
(08:31):
different city every night.
It was such a cornerstone of myidentity that I actually feel
that I was over-investing in mymusic career and under-investing
in my own self, like myrecovery, my own wellness, my
(08:51):
own health.
I think I leaned so much intothe outlet of music that I
turned something healthy intosomething unhealthy because I
became dependent on it.
I was like if this band isn'tsuccessful, then that means I'm
not valuable.
A lot of people listening feelthat way about their families or
(09:12):
their careers or any part oftheir life.
Their bank account balance, theweight that the scale says We
all associate our worth tothings that I don't think are
representative of our worth.
When the band broke up, i feltlike I had lost my only utility
(09:36):
to the world.
I was like the only reason I'veeven stayed alive was to play
music.
Now I lose the one way thatI've found that I can contribute
to the world and feel valuable.
I felt it was really difficultto explain to people that I
actually felt like I was losingmy identity and I was becoming
(09:59):
nobody Not a nobody, becausethat's not what I mean.
I'm like oh, i didn't have aname, i wasn't on stage, but I
felt like I was losing what mademe me and I realized oh no, i
haven't invested in myself, i'vejust been investing in this
project that could be taken awayfrom me at any time.
Michelle (10:20):
I love what you said about how we can tie our worth
to things like money, ourfamilies, our careers, our
weight.
I think most of us can relatein some way to those feelings
and you're so right.
It's really unhealthy becausepeople and things can be taken
away from us at any time.
So, johnny, because of your ownmental health issues and then
(10:42):
the clinical treatment youreceived and then your recovery,
you're passionate about helpingother people and you built this
company where you use textmessages to improve mental and
emotional health.
Tell us what you set out toachieve with COPE Notes and how
it's helping people.
Johnny (11:00):
I'm always very clear about this.
I did not set out to create acompany, so I didn't want to
start a business.
I didn't want to be a CEO.
That was not.
I mean, i want to be a rockstar.
I didn't want to run ahealthcare technology startup.
That sounded like the dirtiestthing in the world to me.
I just wanted to play metal.
(11:20):
What I really set out to do wascreate something, so it was
still creative to me.
Just like I create a song orcreate a short story or create a
painting or a sculpture, i waslike I'm going to create
something that helps people feelbetter, and in fact, that is my
life motto.
It's the driving force of mylife.
(11:43):
I'm going to create stuff thathelps people feel better, and
that's how I feel about anythingI write, or my keynotes or
music or whatever.
So really, the idea was I wantto create something that helps
people feel better, and I made avery rudimentary beta version
that I ran myself for free, fromthe first day I started on it
(12:08):
to the first day I took apaycheck was almost five years,
so I spent literally Lord knowshow many hours countless,
countless, countless hoursbuilding something just for the
sake of seeing it come to life,not knowing that eventually it
would be a resource that's usedby a lot of people and that
(12:31):
provides a living for me and ourstaff.
Michelle (12:34):
Well, that's amazing.
Congratulations on hanging inthere.
Johnny (12:38):
I can't believe I did I always.
Whenever people ask me what themost impressive, what I think
I'm most proud of, they're likeis it Ted talks?
Is it your band charting onbillboard?
Is it getting like closing yourmillions dollar in revenue?
And I'm like no, no, no, themost impressive thing I've ever
(12:58):
done is not quit.
I always tell people becausepeople ask like why, when it was
so difficult, why didn't yougive up?
And I said I remember what itwas like to not have support.
I remember it clear as day,like there's yes right.
I can't imagine just saying well, it's too hard, too hard, it's
(13:19):
like no way.
Michelle (13:21):
That's so encouraging.
After what you went through,it's amazing that you had that
kind of perseverance, and Iremember feeling that way myself
after my son died, like whatchoice do I have?
I have to keep going And then,ultimately, to help other people
with your experience is such agreat thing.
So, johnny, when we talkedbefore, i told you that faith
(13:42):
played a huge role in my healingfrom my grief and sadness.
What role, if any, did faith inGod play in your recovery?
Johnny (13:52):
So huge role.
The main thing that I tellpeople I have a lot of friends
who don't believe in God.
I'm pretty new to the God thing.
I just I showed up to the partylike seven years ago.
So I spent a good you know two,two plus decades just not being
interested, didn't want to hearabout it, didn't want to learn
(14:14):
about it.
I'm very closed off and I havea lot of friends who are still
in that camp And I always tellthem the biggest difference that
faith made for me in myrecovery is before.
My recovery was about like thewhole world revolves around me,
like if I failed, then life wasterrible and the world sucks.
(14:38):
And you know, once you realizethat you're not the center of
the universe and that the worlddoesn't revolve around you, and
you realize Like if you are theGod of your own life which many
people, that's how they operate,that's how I operate it for
(14:58):
many years.
I am God, i am the God of myown life.
I make all the decisions, it'sall on me.
When you fail, the God of youruniverse fails And people like
you and me fail constantly,multiple times per day.
I mean we are doubling,tripling up on failures happens
all the time we spill coffee, weget in fender benders, we send
(15:21):
a rude email that we didn't meanto send, like this stuff
happens to all of us becausewe're people And when I was
working on getting healthier, iwas so relieved to know that,
even if I have a bad day, oreven if I have a bad week or
month, or I relapse or whatever,there's a God of the universe
(15:43):
that loves me, regardless of myperformance.
The weight of the world, thefate of the universe, does not
hang on the shoulders of a 23year old with schizophrenia,
because if it does, we're all introuble, right.
But learning that there is aGod who is above me, sees things
(16:04):
I can't see, loves me in waysthat I don't yet love myself, i
can't explain how liberating itwas.
It actually helped me focusmore on my recovery because I
was less focused on damagecontrol and trying to keep
everything together, knowingthat God would kind of cover
that base, you know.
Michelle (16:24):
Yeah, that's so true.
For years that's how I operatedtoo.
I mean trying to controleverything.
and then you're sort of facedwith hey, i can do nothing about
this, this is out of my control.
I had to learn that the hardway too.
So we talked about your homelife and how difficult things
were between you and yourparents.
So today you're featured on TEDTalks all over the internet.
(16:47):
You're highly sought after forspeaking engagements.
You're the founder and CEO ofCope Notes.
Given that your success is sovisible, how has your family
reacted to it all?
Johnny (16:59):
It's been mixed.
It depends on which failingmember you're consulting.
I don't even know.
Actually, there are somemoments when I feel really
supported by my family, like mymom came to see my band and she
actually came to see my band nottoo long ago, like last month,
(17:21):
and did a stage dive, jumped offthe stage and people carried
her and stuff.
She's like 60.
I feel like, oh, it was justthe coolest thing ever.
And there's times when I justdid a talk for General Mills, i
just did a keynote for them, andthey put me on a Wheaties box.
I took a picture with theWheaties box and my little
brother shared it on hisFacebook.
(17:42):
Little stuff like that willshow me like they're supporting
in their own way.
When we get together we don'ttalk a lot about I think it's a
little bit uncomfortable foreverybody.
Still, i don't think everyone'slike, oh yeah, tell us more
about how you've recovered fromsevere mental illness.
(18:02):
I don't think that because wewere all there, right, you know
family like that, seeing family,can bring up difficult memories
.
I think there is a degree ofavoidance that all of us kind of
engage in.
I don't even think that we knowwe're doing it.
So it's tough because my workcenters around recovery and
(18:26):
these really challenging topicsAnd I think my family is not
always the quickest to be likeoh yeah, tell us more about all
of this, what are you doing?
I think they're kind of like Isee you doing your thing, i get
that, it's good.
I'm not really ready to jump inand have that whole
conversation yet And I pray toGod every day that there's more
(18:51):
and more of an opportunity forme to share my recovery with
them and for them to kind ofhopefully apply some of the
things that have helped me towhether they choose to get sober
or choose to engage in therapyor like I mean, how cool would
that be, even if it takes 10years or 20 years?
how cool would that be to get aphone call and say like, hey, i
(19:13):
just booked a therapyappointment?
I'd be like, oh amazing.
Michelle (19:17):
Yeah, that would be amazing And an answer to your
prayers, I'm sure.
So I'm curious how you wentfrom the place where you were to
this place of being sold outfor Jesus.
How were you first introducedto a relationship with God?
Johnny (19:33):
So first I was first introduced by my parents taking
me to Catholic Church, whichdidn't stick I just really for a
bunch of reasons, and then Iwas pretty closed off for a long
time when.
I was.
So I remember two things reallystood out as like challenges
(19:54):
with the church.
Well, three I guess.
One was I didn't see thebehavior of my family lining up
with what I was hearing atchurch.
So I was like I don't reallyget it.
Like we're in church on Sundayand they say treat others with
kindness and do no harm, andthen during the week I'm getting
beat up Like I don't know how Ifeel about that.
And then so that was number one.
Number two was I found out thatthere was a choir director that
(20:20):
was fired after they discoveredthat he was gay And I was like,
well then, i'm not going tothis church because if he can't
work here then I don't.
I just don't, i don't even wantto be here if it's that
exclusionary And if it's like,oh, jesus is only for certain
people And they had somechurches in Florida wouldn't do
like interracial marriages andstuff.
(20:41):
I mean it was like some pretty,it was like some Wild West
Hortest Now that like level ofsocial exclusion and like the
total opposite of what I read inthe gospel.
And then the third thing was onI was hallucinating a lot.
I had severe paranoidschizophrenia.
(21:02):
I was experiencing auditory andvisual hallucinations
pervasively.
So I was literally seeingdemons and the devil.
I'll never be able to explainwhat that experience was like
And all of that took me fromfaith.
I was angry at church, i wasangry at religion, i was angry
at God, but then I didn'tbelieve in God at the same time.
(21:24):
So that's a weird oxymoron.
And then I was reintroduced tofaith When I went to visit a
friend of mine.
She works at a church inNashville And she just said she
tricked me.
She said come meet me at workAnd I was like cool, where are
you?
I was on tour And she gave methe address.
(21:45):
I show up and it's a church AndI'm like this lady and I go in
and it's not a service oranything.
She was just working there.
And then she was like oh, youcan sit in on this discipleship
class that they're doing andwait for me to finish.
And I was like I can't believeit.
So I just go sit in this roomand keep in mind I'm wearing
this.
Oh, this is such a good story.
So I'm wearing this hoodie thatsays Aborted, really big on the
(22:09):
front.
It's this death metal band thatwe're touring with from Belgium
And all these down the arms ofthe hoodie it's upside down
cross pentagram, upside downcross pentagram, upside down
cross pentagram.
So I'm wearing this likeclearly satanic like outfit And
I didn't know I was going to achurch.
I'm like, oops, that's all meAnd so I go in.
(22:32):
And these people in this churchwere kind to me.
They were not nice Like agreeter at Walmart Being nice to
you.
They were kind, they listened,they showed me, they took me and
I was not interested to hearabout Jesus or anything like
that.
They were just.
(22:53):
They showed me such kindness.
I was like why aren't theytreating me poorly?
Like I'm covering tattoos, i'mdressed like this, I don't
believe in God.
Why aren't they judging me andkicking me out?
And I was so confused by theirkindness.
And then they what really thisis what the real catalyst was
was they were reading about thePharisees.
(23:15):
So if anyone is not familiarwith the Bible, there's this
group of people like religiousleaders who were very like
finger wagging, like, oh, youhave to dress this way, you have
to follow these religious laws.
And then Jesus comes tointerrupt that whole thing and
kind of flip, disrupt theprevailing religious leadership
of the day.
And when I was hearing that, iwas like wait, but I thought
(23:38):
Jesus came around and wagged hisfinger and said here's how you
should all be.
And I was.
When I was hearing that I waslike, oh, jesus is the like DIY
punk that comes in and likeflips the establishment upside
down.
I'm like whoa, jesus is themost punk thing ever.
So in a funny way, it was likemy first reintroduction to
(24:00):
realizing that the behavior thatI had seen from quote unquote
religious people actuallymatched with the quote unquote
religious people of the days ofthe Bible, like the Pharisees,
and I realized Jesus and I wereon the same side of that
argument And I was like whoa, ihave completely misunderstood
the gospel for a quarter century.
Michelle (24:22):
Wow, that is a great story.
I'm so glad you shared that AndI love that your friend invited
you to her work.
Johnny (24:28):
And she didn't even do it on purpose.
She said I knew you wouldn'tknow where the church was, So I
gave you the address.
She like was not trying totrick me, but it being like the
most brilliant thing inretrospect.
Michelle (24:42):
Yeah, well, we know who the master mind behind that
one was.
Johnny (24:45):
Yeah, genius.
Michelle (24:47):
Well, johnny, i'm thinking about all the great
things you had to share duringour discussion so far, and
there's been so much that Ithink will be valuable to so
many.
You talked about how art andmusic and writing were creative
outlets that helped you expressyourself, and how they often
relieve the feelings of notbeing good enough.
You said at one point yourealized your identity was tied
(25:11):
to being a musician, and youexplained how unhealthy it can
be to attach ourselves tosomething that can be taken away
.
You shared your memories of atime when you had no support
network to turn to and how itcompelled you to be there for
others in need.
You told us about the role offaith in your life and how it
(25:32):
helped you to understand theidea of giving control to God
because he loves us, regardlessof our performance, and how,
even though you were angry atGod and angry at religion
because of the trauma youendured, you ultimately found
acceptance and genuine love whenyou met other believers who
welcomed you without judgment.
(25:52):
Johnny, can you share a couplemore of the big life lessons you
learned having been through allof this?
that might help someonelistening who might be
struggling with adversity anddepression right now.
Johnny (26:05):
So two things come to mind immediately.
I'm literally writing a bookthat's going to take the rest of
my life, so it's not going tobe out anytime soon, but I'm
writing a book about all thethings that I've learned and
it's broken up by lesson.
I learned this lesson the hardway.
I learned this lesson the hardway And two things jump to mind
immediately.
One is if you can getcomfortable shamelessly asking
(26:30):
for help, you can recover wayfaster.
Like you can shrink yourrecovery timeline by two thirds.
Like you can, i mean, imagine,do you wanna spend 30 years
struggling with this?
or 10 years, or three years?
Like how?
the thing that really allowsyou to put your finger on the
(26:52):
scale of the rate of yourrecovery, at least in my opinion
.
my experience has been my ownwillingness to request and
receive assistance from otherpeople.
And there's dude, there's apride in me that says I don't
need help.
What's this lady gonna teach methat I already know?
And oh, i'm not the type ofperson who does therapy or
(27:14):
journaling.
Are you kidding me?
Like, if you can get past thatand you can get comfortable
asking for help and receivinghelp, you are shaving years or
decades off of how long it willtake you to recover.
The second one is something thatI really needed to hear is I
(27:39):
wish somebody would have goneback in time and told me you
don't know that it won't getbetter, like I was so convinced.
I was like yesterday sucked andtoday sucked, and I know that
tomorrow's gonna suck.
And I wish somebody would sayyou don't know that.
There's no way, that you haveno evidence that tomorrow will
(28:00):
suck.
It is.
unless you are the first personever to be able to divine the
future, then you.
there's a 50% chance thattomorrow's gonna be better than
today.
It's a coin flip And if you flipa coin, statistically speaking,
if you flip it enough times,you will get a heads guaranteed.
(28:21):
So I wish I would have embracedthis idea that each day, each
new day, is a totally freshopportunity, just like each coin
slip is not affected by theprevious coin slip.
There's not such a thing asmomentum or like a hot streak
and gambling.
Each time you flip it it's evenodds 50-50.
(28:43):
So I wish I would have embracedthat idea earlier that, even if
the first 20 years of my lifehave been torturous and just the
most painful, i think I canimagine tomorrow I could fall in
love.
tomorrow I could win thelottery.
tomorrow I could try the firstmedication that's actually
(29:07):
helped me after years of tryingto find the white one.
Like I wish I would have beenmore open to tomorrow being
better than today.
Michelle (29:17):
I love it so good.
Each new day is a totally freshopportunity, great.
So, johnny, before we close, iwould love you to just take a
minute and summarize what CopeNotes offers to people who need
support.
Tell us what these textmessages are all about and how
they work.
Johnny (29:35):
What Cope Notes does for people who listen and are like,
wait a second, i don't reallyhave context in the like.
This guy started a company andwhat exactly does it do?
So all we do in a sentence, iswe send randomly timed text
messages that interrupt negativethought patterns and train the
brain to think healthierthoughts.
So that's what we do.
(29:56):
If you wanna try it for free,you can go to copenotescom and
give it a spin, or you can givea subscription to a friend or
family member.
You know, i think a lot ofpeople will listen to something
like this and then they go backto their daily life and they
continue doing it just like theydid it before, and they don't
(30:16):
allow the conversation to changetheir life.
They don't go listen to asecond episode, they don't call
a friend or family member, theydon't change when they set their
alarm or the way that they eator the way that they.
You know they're missing anopportunity Each time.
You, if you just spent a halfhour listening to a conversation
(30:37):
like this, it says somethingabout you.
It says that you're the type ofperson who cares enough to make
changes in their life and thelives of others.
So my encouragement andchallenge to you is do anything
Like, take an action.
And I don't even care if it iscopenotes.
If you sign up for copenotes,great, give it a spin.
(30:58):
It's anonymous, so I won't evenknow that you did it, so no
pressure.
But if you choose to buy a book, if you choose to book a
therapy session, if you chooseto try doing a dry month, so no
alcohol for an entire month,like whatever you're, even one
night, whatever you choose to do, just please, for the love of
(31:20):
God and all that is holy,leverage what you just heard to
make some degree of change inyour life.
Take an action.
Don't let this just be apodcast episode.
Let it be a catalyst.
Michelle (31:33):
Yeah, that's so good.
A lot of times, many of us justmove on after a motivating
discussion and do nothing.
Thank you for stating that sowell and for encouraging
listeners to take some smallstep today that'll produce
positive results in their life.
Johnny, thank you so much foragreeing to come on the show
today and for sharing yourdeeply personal story.
(31:54):
I truly appreciate your honestyand all that you're doing to
help people.
Johnny (31:58):
Thank you for having me And, i think, most importantly,
thank you to the folks who arelistening for being here with us
.
Michelle (32:06):
So, for those of you listening, johnny issued a
challenge for us today.
He said take an action, read abook, make a therapy appointment
, try a dry month, leverage whatyou just heard to make some
degree of change in your life.
Don't just let this be apodcast episode, let it be a
(32:27):
catalyst.
So good, and that is my prayerfor you as well today.
My friend, be well.
Thanks for listening.
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