August 20, 2023 • 28 mins
Following two miscarriages, Darrell and his wife were thrilled to learn that they would finally become parents. As they arrived at the hospital prepared to experience their greatest joy, they also received devasting news that would trigger a mix of emotions they were completely unprepared for.
Listen in on my conversation with Darrell Williams, former white house communications director to the vice president, military veteran, pastor, speaker, facilitator, and certified life coach. Darrell's candid discussion on managing emotional turmoil while offering support to his spouse, and drawing strength from their faith, family and circle of friends is sure to touch your heart, inspire you, and give you hope!
#miscarriage #joyandsorrow #faith #grief
Darrell's Website:
https://speakerhub.com/speaker/darrell-williams
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:10):
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Have you ever felt like thingscan't get any worse and then
they do?
Or have you ever experienced amoment of joy so wonderful, only
(00:33):
to have it eclipsed by bad news?
When the bad things in lifestart to outnumber the good, it
can be difficult to stay strongand to persevere in the face of
adversity, and sometimes we findourselves wondering what this
life is all about.
Why do bad things happen?
Why is it that our greatesthopes finally come to fruition?
(00:56):
Yet the goodness can sometimesbe diminished when new trials
come.
Well, my guest today is ahusband and a father, a military
veteran, associate, pastor, aspeaker, facilitator and
certified life coach.
But he grew up with humblebeginnings in the city of
Compton, california, which wasranked the fourth most dangerous
(01:19):
city in America at that time.
Even with the difficulties hefaced as a young man, he went on
to become the operations andvice presidential communications
officer in the White HouseCommunications Agency, where he
led over 500 missions.
Following the tragedies ofSeptember 11, 2001, he was
(01:39):
selected as one of five keyleaders out of 30 senior
managers to direct emergencyaction communications for the
vice president of the UnitedStates, including duties as an
Air Force II commandrepresentative.
He's held senior levelpositions in Washington DC,
earned numerous prestigiousgovernment awards and accolades,
(01:59):
and he's had the privilege ofserving under some of the most
influential leaders ingovernment.
He's had a career marked byfulfilling service and rewarding
leadership, but his personallife challenges began early in
his marriage, when a rollercoaster ride of sadness and joy
occurred in his life.
His name is Darrell Williamsand it's my great honor and
(02:22):
privilege to have him as myguest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified Darrell.
Darrell (02:27):
Thank you so much, Michelle, for having me.
Michelle (02:29):
Of course.
So, Darrell, let's talk aboutthat.
That time that I referenced,when early in your marriage you
and your wife were talking aboutstarting a family, that your
dreams of a baby were twiceunfulfilled, when you both
experienced two miscarriages.
Can you talk about yourperspective the male perspective
(02:51):
on child loss, how you grievedand how you managed to support a
grieving wife while coping withyour own emotions?
Darrell (03:00):
Yes, that's a great question.
A lot of times, for meespecially we find ourselves in
situations where we've neverbeen there before, just like our
spouses, but we have a sense ofduty to the customer,
protecting.
And when that happens to ourwives and our partners, it
really does put us in asituation that's very unfamiliar
(03:23):
to us, because most men just innature they're just built,
protected and take care of ourspouses.
But when things happen orthings that we can't control is
a very challenging situation forany man.
So for me, we got married alittle bit older in our lives.
We were mature and we didn'tthink we would have any children
(03:45):
.
And then when we said you knowwhat, let's go ahead and try.
And it was a really gut-richingexperience because the first
time she got pregnant we werekind of excited like, wow, this
is really going to happen.
And what made it so interesting, Michelle, was I was a youth
pastor doing this time.
So everybody would always sayyou guys take so much care of
(04:08):
other people's children.
We're going to pray that Godblesses you with your own
children.
So that first time it happenedwe really thought like, wow,
this is God rewarding us forbeing so faithful in our own
ministry as being a youth pastorand Veronica being a youth
leader.
But I tell you, when thatsituation happened, where
Veronica miscarried I mean I hadnever experienced anything like
(04:30):
that before.
It was just such a I mean, itjust rocked our world.
Just being honest.
It was just devastating.
Michelle (04:39):
Darrell, I'm so sorry for your losses and I can only
imagine the feeling of workingwith kids in youth group and
then wanting to have children ofyour own and then later having
to miscarriage.
It's very, very difficult.
So I know you had a full-timejob and you were working with
the youth group at church and Iimagine you took some time off,
(05:00):
but can you talk about returningto that environment with the
other kids when others knew whathappened?
It must have been reallydifficult to remain strong.
Darrell (05:11):
The work part wasn't a big deal at that time, because
things happen to a lot of people.
But in the ministry it's like,where is that timeline when you
can come back and stand in frontof people?
So it took us a long time toreally get ourselves together,
not to fake it and kind of standin front of people like, oh,
we're okay?
And that was not the case.
You know, we were just tellingpeople we're still in the
(05:32):
process, just give us time andspace.
So then once we got throughthat and we're like okay, we're
good and we're moving forward,and then Veronica was pregnant
the second time and then we'rekind of nervous like, oh, hey,
is this really going to happen?
And once you got through acouple of stages we were like,
okay, I think this is it.
We got excited again.
(05:53):
But then the second time shemiscarried and that pain was
harder than the first pain,because now you're like what's
going on?
Never was why me or why us, butit was like how do we get
through this?
And so the emotions that I wasmanaging was definitely hard,
because I wanted to be there formy wife and in most situations
(06:16):
a lot of men are really good atcompartmentalizing things.
So for me I had to put my griefto the side and say I'll get to
it when I can.
I need to be there for Veronica, yeah.
And what was really good wasVeronica was very wise and she
was asking me hey, how are youfeeling as a husband?
So that kind of helped out,because then I was able to share
(06:39):
with her and then I did have areally good inner circle of men
that gave me time and space.
But then they would come andjust say, hey, if you want to
talk, we're here.
And one thing I like aboutthose friends they didn't let me
sit too long.
They really put themselves outthere to say, hey, now it's just
you ready or not, but we'regoing to keep asking you until
(07:00):
you are.
We don't want you to fall intoa sense of depression or a loan
or kind of strike out the wholeworld type of thing.
I'm really glad that they didthat, but definitely having
friends that really cared aboutme.
Michelle (07:13):
Yeah, I think it's great that both your wife and
your friends were there for youand that they were also
sensitive and understanding.
But you were getting ready toreturn to work soon and your job
was pretty demanding back in DC.
You were a senior leader andlots of people were counting on
you back at the office.
But grief can be so messy forother people and now you're
(07:35):
about to enter into it.
Can you tell us how youapproached it and how others
responded to it?
Darrell (07:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm one of those individualswith some organization.
I was a mentor, I was a coachfor a lot of people, so it
wasn't like I was unknown, itcould just hide in a corner.
I was that person thateverybody came to.
It was almost like a runningjoke, like if your day is going
terrible or you can't seeanything good, make sure you
(08:02):
walk by his desk because you'regoing to find a way to turn
something into positive andyou're going to walk away
feeling better.
So me being in that mode ofdespair and grief really did
shake a lot of people becausethey're like you know, who
comforts a comforter, and thatwas really kind of the quote.
(08:22):
And for me, once I got to apoint, again, I wasn't the super
person that bounced right back,it took me time, right, but
once I got to a point I wasready.
I reached out to my seniorleader and said, hey, I know my
status around here and I helpmotivate people.
So I want to kind of take adifferent approach.
I want to make sure I went topeople ahead of time to let them
(08:44):
know it was okay, becausesometimes people they want to
help but they don't know howthey want to say something they
don't know when.
So I was like you know what,let me take that burden off.
I made it a point to go toeverybody's office.
I just went to visit everybodyone-on-one to make sure they
were understanding that I'm okay, you can come ask questions.
(09:04):
And then you also you knowyoung people that work that talk
about their children.
So I want to let them knowplease don't stop talking about
the joy that you're having.
Matter of fact, I encouragedthem, I told them that sharing
the joy about your kids willhelp me.
That really gave them morecomfort, like, okay, I didn't
want that to be awkward, so theycouldn't talk about those
(09:26):
things.
So it was good for me to takethat initial step, to go to each
one of them one-on-one andahead of time, and then once I
can talk about how I was feelingand letting them know that
being back in this environmentis really going to help me get
back to where I wanted to go andwho I need to be.
I think that really kind oftook the pause and the unknown
(09:50):
from my coworkers and allowedthem to also help me.
You go through the grieving byyourself, but then there's also
grieving at work.
So it allowed all of us to kindof walk through this together.
Michelle (10:03):
Well, that is truly inspirational to hear someone
say I took the time to approachother people and tell them it
was okay and all the things youdid.
That took a lot of strength,but you mentioned before you
said that you had tocompartmentalize your grief
because you had to care forVeronica.
Of course, but that's what yousaid.
Men tend to do.
So, in addition to the strengththat you had and that you
(10:26):
exercised with other people, didyou have moments of grieving
alone and, if so, what did thatlook like?
Darrell (10:32):
I did A lot of times, you know.
At that time Veronica wouldkind of cry herself to sleep.
So I would, you know, kind ofbe there for her and then, once
I knew she was in a sound sleep,I would get out of the room and
I would go down to the den andI would just pray and again,
play gospel music, cry, justwhatever I felt.
I just let it come out becauseI found out that it was
(10:54):
important for me not to let thatstuff bottle up at me because
eventually, I don't care howstrong you think you are, It'll
start wearing down on your body,you'll start getting sickness,
and the last thing I needed wasto get sick while Veronica was
going through this.
So I made sure that I did have,you know, my time by myself.
(11:14):
I played my favorite songs andthat helped me out a lot.
People didn't know me in thereal big, in the gospel rap, but
at that time they wanted anyrap.
Right, I needed to hear someKurt Franklin or Fred Hammonds,
you know music that really justkind of just reminded me that,
hey, it's going to be okay.
Michelle (11:33):
Darrell, thanks for your willingness to talk about
how you grieve, because it'shonest and real, and I think it
probably makes people feel a lotless alone in their own grief.
And I couldn't agree with youmore about holding emotions in
and the effect on our physicalbodies, because I remember
thinking that going back to workfor me would be a good
(11:54):
distraction in the beginning andit was, but I didn't realize
that I needed to let it out aswell.
So I experienced anxiety,sleeplessness, headaches, chest
pain, you name it.
So, darrell, having gonethrough the painful experience
of losing two babies, you andyour wife finally got the news
(12:15):
that she was pregnant again, andit seemed like everything was
going well this time.
And then you told me that onthe day she was going into labor
, you're at the hospital.
You received the horrible newsthat your wife's sister suddenly
passed away from an aneurysm.
So here you are at thisintersection of joy and sorrow
(12:35):
yet again, and I know you had agreat relationship with your
wife's sister, Corliss, and thatyou knew her family as well.
So how did this news hit you onwhat should have been such a
joyful day?
Darrell (12:48):
Yeah, that was definitely devastating.
She was just this amazingperson.
I mean just love all around.
Right, she was the oldest, buteverybody loved her.
It was hard because it wassomebody that I didn't know but
I heard of.
I actually spent time with herand her husband, her older kids,
(13:09):
so it was really, really hard.
So I had a lot of emotions withmyself, just like what's going
on?
Why is this happening?
Not necessarily again, why us?
But it was like you'restruggling with you know
whatever that message is.
Can you please help me get itsooner rather than later,
(13:30):
because I don't understand.
I know things happen all thetime.
I just need some help on my end.
The answer that I wanted was sothat I could eventually help
her.
Should she come to me and sayyou know what you know?
Why do you think this happened?
Or what do you think the lessonis with this old part of me was
(13:51):
?
I was trying to get answers formyself in addition to, should
the conversation come up with us, I want to be able to at least
say something to say.
You know, what if this happenedbecause of this, or what if this
happened because of that, whichnone of it could be the right
answer at all, but just want tohave something to say or to add
(14:11):
to the conversation Because,again, as a husband, you just
want to be there for your wife,and even for me, again, that's
one of those situations where,even though I wanted to grieve
for her as well, I had to put itto the side because I wanted to
have some possible I don't sayanswers, but at least discussion
(14:32):
points, when the two of useventually talked about it and I
was definitely in a sense ofsearching for answers myself,
trying to figure out, you know,what could I say and then also
what not to say.
That's another thing forhusbands.
We really try to put ourselvesin a place where we don't want
to say anything stupid,heartless.
I'm very careful, I will pauseand, to my detriment, I will
(15:00):
remain silent before sayingsomething bad, even though
silent is not good either.
As a husband, sometimes I wantto say something and we bite our
tongue, bite our lip, becausewe don't want to say anything
that we're going to regret.
So I was.
Michelle (15:15):
That's so good.
That's wisdom for sure.
Darrell (15:19):
You learn, you learn you learn Well.
Michelle (15:22):
So I really want to talk to you and get your opinion
about this, because I know youdo a lot of speaking and you
coach people and you just havethis experience and I know that,
having experienced a loss of achild myself.
It's one of those things wherequestions swirl in your head and
you were at that place whereyou were kind of waiting for
answers and to get in a goodplace of confidence to be able
(15:44):
then to go back to talk to yourwife and be assured about why
things happen the way they did.
So can we talk about theoverall concept of how life can
throw these trials and tragediesat us?
Well, at the same time, we haveblessings and beautiful things
in our life and I thinksometimes it's hard to
comprehend the why, especiallywhen bad things happen to good
(16:06):
people.
So can you address that fromyour perspective?
Darrell (16:11):
Yeah, unfortunately, I had this conversation with a lot
of people, especially peoplethat know that I'm a man of
faith.
A lot of times I don't tellpeople.
I just allowed it to happennaturally.
And then when they do, they'relike oh, I didn't know you were
a man of faith, I have somequestions for you.
So they will ask you a lot.
But a lot of times I tell you,Michelle I try not to be this
(16:34):
know-it-all I'm very honest withpeople and I tell them that,
even as a man of faith, thereare some mysteries that we just
don't know.
Later on, maybe through thedoctors doing further tests, you
may find out that there wasmaybe some type of thing that
was going on in the baby thatwas going to eventually cause
(16:55):
them not to have a full life.
And I always say things in aquestion like what if?
And God's infinite wisdom andnothing that we know of that.
Maybe he knew that we wouldwrestle with the pain a little
bit better now versus ithappening later.
I say things such as well maybeGod allowed this experience to
(17:18):
happen because he knew there's alevel inside of you that's
deeper than what you couldimagine, and maybe this is
something that's going to bringout that deepness, not just for
yourself but maybe later downthe road when you feel
comfortable that you may be ableto talk to somebody else that's
in a similar situation.
So for me, I just try to ask alot of different questions, even
(17:41):
if they're not a person offaith, just in their wisdom and
their own personal strength.
I tell them that they will getthose answers eventually on
their own, because God doesn'twant them to walk around this
earth and just not know and havethat emptiness throughout the
rest of their lives.
I always tell them to payattention to their life moving
(18:03):
forward.
For me I listen to gospel andmusic, but for them it could be
any music that they listen to,or poetry that they normally
read, or books, movies.
I tell them you can get thatanswer in any way.
I just share with them and kindof be open when that happens,
(18:23):
because if you're reallysearching you will get that
answer.
Michelle (18:27):
Well, thank you for your thoughts on this topic.
I mentioned before that you'rea pastor, so I appreciate and
probably others appreciate yourfaith-based perspective.
I loved it when you explainedthat there are mysteries in this
life that we'll never fullyunderstand and that perhaps God
knew that we would handlesomething difficult at this time
(18:47):
in life better than later.
Also, when you talked about howthe experience might have taken
the individual to a new levelof depth.
I think that is so true.
I remember one of my previousguests who tragically lost her
daughter talked about her othertwo children having a greater
sense of empathy toward othersas a result of what they've been
(19:08):
through.
So yeah, I know the pain ofgrief can really change us in a
positive way, like you said.
So I want to talk about purpose.
You said maybe there would be areason that this happened that
can be used, so a lot of peoplelike myself, after a great loss,
will maybe start a podcast orwrite a book.
(19:28):
You have coaching services thatyou offer and you're speaking
engagements to do so.
Can you talk about your view ofhow these tragedies and trials
are allowed in our life to helpus find purpose?
Darrell (19:42):
Yes, that is a very important lesson for people to
understand.
Here's the thing the paindoesn't go away.
I tell people, it's all time.
It may come to you in differentways later on, but that's
always going to be there.
So we do have a choice withwhat we can do with that
(20:02):
reaction to that.
We can react in a negative wayor we can do something totally
opposite to say how can Ichannel this into something
different?
And the example of that inregards to where you are in the
United States.
You see people that have anunexpected loss and then they
(20:23):
start a charity or they open upa scholarship with that person's
name.
All those individuals were inthe same position that we were
in, but somehow, when they werealready, they figured out.
I need to do something withthis emotion and I believe with
time, with great mentors andfamily support, we can all get
(20:47):
to a point where we can askourselves what can I do now?
What can I do next?
What can I do to turn thistragedy into at least a little
bit of joy for somebody else?
Because I can't really do itfor myself, because that loss is
just too big.
What if I can help somebodyelse?
Maybe it'll make it a little biteasier and that's why I like
(21:09):
your show, because there's a lotof examples of people, as you
said, that out there tragedy.
They wrote a book, they starteda podcast, they started support
groups in their community, theyled support groups in their
faith-based institutions.
So there's a lot of differentthings and that's just the same,
not even from a spiritualperspective, but just from a
(21:31):
life perspective.
I just think that's one ofthose things as humans that we
get to experience to be able tohelp someone else down the road.
It's hard to explain, but Iknow people when they hear this
they'll be able to go back andsay, oh, I do remember hearing
this on the news or readingabout that story, and there's
(21:52):
some truth into people turningpain into something positive.
Michelle (21:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really true,Darrell.
You're such a kind andcompassionate person and it's
clear to me that you want tohelp other people with the hard
things they go through in life.
And you yourself had adifficult life as a child,
growing up in a toughneighborhood, but you pushed
past the negative influencesaround you.
You pursued college, got yourMBA and then landed a great
(22:20):
federal job on the White Housestaff and with your hard work
you earned your way to acomfortable and successful life.
But you also experienced a lossof two children and a close
family member, and through itall, you chose to remain
faithful and you and your wifenever lost hope.
You told us you went back towork after your losses instead
(22:42):
of isolating in your grief, andyou helped those around you feel
comfortable in theirinteractions with you, and you
said you never asked why me?
Because you knew that lots ofpeople go through loss in life,
and you encouraged others tocontinue sharing their joys of
parenthood with you.
You talked about how you knewthat holding in emotions can
(23:03):
affect your physical health andthat you needed to be strong
physically to continue to carefor your wife, and you shared
how you sought out and receivedcounsel and support from your
friends.
You listened to music and criedand prayed in your deepest
moments of grief, and that youtried to quickly discern the
message or lesson that youneeded to learn in your sorrow
(23:25):
in order to heal and moveforward in your life.
Such good stuff, Darrell.
What other lessons have youlearned, having gone through all
of this?
Can you share with someonelistening right now who needs
hope?
Darrell (23:39):
I take.
One of the big life lessonsthat I've learned is, for me,
everything happened for a reason.
Now I might not understand thatreason, I might not even agree
with that reason and I may notget it for a longer time than
when it happened, but I dobelieve that there are some
lessons that teach us something.
And then there's also,unfortunately, some experiences
that we go through because,whether you're a person of faith
(24:03):
or as God, or if you're not aperson of faith, life itself
puts you in a situation to helpsomebody else down the road.
And this is very evident,Michelle, especially with
children.
I'm always so amazed howchildren can be so resilient and
, unlike adults, they know whatto do to comfort a friend.
(24:24):
They're so amazed.
I love just watching how theyinteract, especially with the
youth pastor.
I would notice somebody thatlost a brother or sister and I
knew somebody in my ministry waslike that.
I would say you don't have todo this, but if you feel led,
you just kind of go talk toJohnny and don't ask him a lot
(24:47):
of questions, but just kind ofjust let him know that you lost
a brother.
To Don't say I know how youfeel, right, don't say that, but
just say, hey, I lost a brotherto you, want to talk to
somebody.
I'm here and kids are so great.
I learned a lot of lessons fromthe kids in youth ministry than
the lessons they learned from me, because they just have this
(25:07):
way of just being there forsomeone else and I use a lot of
those lessons when I talk toadults to say sometimes things
happen.
Pay attention to either downthe road where you may find
yourself put in a situationbecause of life, where there's
somebody that's going throughsomething similar.
It's never the same, but it'ssomething similar.
(25:29):
And that's why I always tellpeople don't be surprised if you
find yourself being somebodyelse's light while they're going
through their darkness,regardless of how hard it gets
and I know darkness is nevergoing to go away.
But I just want to leaveeverybody with a message of hope
(25:49):
regardless of how cloudy thedays are, even if it doesn't
seem like it'll happen, brighterdays will come.
It won't replace the pain, butyou will find a way just to put
that one step in front of theother.
And then the next day, the nextday, and then you just find
yourself moving full.
Michelle (26:09):
Yeah, I think that is the message that I wish I had
back then, in my deepest momentsof grief after losing Sean that
brighter days will come.
It's so hard to believe whenyou're in the pit, but we know
it to be true now and we want toshare it with everybody today.
Darrell, thank you so much forbeing a model of positivity in
(26:29):
the midst of hard times.
I truly appreciate you and I'mso grateful that you agreed to
be my guest on the show today.
Thanks again, Darrell.
Darrell (26:37):
No, Michelle, thank you for having me and thank you for
your podcast.
Again, this is something that'sreally really needed.
So glad that you were led to dothis.
Michelle (26:46):
Thank you.
So, for those of you listening,I hope this message arrived at
just the right time for you.
I hope you were encouraged toknow that people who have
suffered great loss can survivethe pain and go on to do great
things.
Darrell had the difficult jobof supporting a grieving wife
(27:09):
while coping with his own grief,but he also learned the value
of getting support, expressinghis sorrow and helping other
people interact with grievers,and he recognized that young
people seemed to naturally comealongside their friends with a
beautiful way of being presentthat stood out to him.
My prayer is that you'd becomforted in your grief today,
(27:31):
that you'd be blessed by otherpeople who would support and
love you in exactly the way thatyou need right now, and I pray
that you would heal and havehope for the future and that
you'd have a desire to moveforward, even though it hurts
right now, and one day you'll beready to help someone else with
(27:52):
the lessons you learned in yourloss.
Thanks for listening.
Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss to inspire you and give you
hope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
Have you ever felt like thingscan't get any worse and then
they do?
Or have you ever experienced amoment of joy so wonderful, only
(00:33):
to have it eclipsed by bad news?
When the bad things in lifestart to outnumber the good, it
can be difficult to stay strongand to persevere in the face of
adversity, and sometimes we findourselves wondering what this
life is all about.
Why do bad things happen?
Why is it that our greatesthopes finally come to fruition?
(00:56):
Yet the goodness can sometimesbe diminished when new trials
come.
Well, my guest today is ahusband and a father, a military
veteran, associate, pastor, aspeaker, facilitator and
certified life coach.
But he grew up with humblebeginnings in the city of
Compton, california, which wasranked the fourth most dangerous
(01:19):
city in America at that time.
Even with the difficulties hefaced as a young man, he went on
to become the operations andvice presidential communications
officer in the White HouseCommunications Agency, where he
led over 500 missions.
Following the tragedies ofSeptember 11, 2001, he was
(01:39):
selected as one of five keyleaders out of 30 senior
managers to direct emergencyaction communications for the
vice president of the UnitedStates, including duties as an
Air Force II commandrepresentative.
He's held senior levelpositions in Washington DC,
earned numerous prestigiousgovernment awards and accolades,
(01:59):
and he's had the privilege ofserving under some of the most
influential leaders ingovernment.
He's had a career marked byfulfilling service and rewarding
leadership, but his personallife challenges began early in
his marriage, when a rollercoaster ride of sadness and joy
occurred in his life.
His name is Darrell Williamsand it's my great honor and
(02:22):
privilege to have him as myguest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified Darrell.
Darrell (02:27):
Thank you so much, Michelle, for having me.
Michelle (02:29):
Of course.
So, Darrell, let's talk aboutthat.
That time that I referenced,when early in your marriage you
and your wife were talking aboutstarting a family, that your
dreams of a baby were twiceunfulfilled, when you both
experienced two miscarriages.
Can you talk about yourperspective the male perspective
(02:51):
on child loss, how you grievedand how you managed to support a
grieving wife while coping withyour own emotions?
Darrell (03:00):
Yes, that's a great question.
A lot of times, for meespecially we find ourselves in
situations where we've neverbeen there before, just like our
spouses, but we have a sense ofduty to the customer,
protecting.
And when that happens to ourwives and our partners, it
really does put us in asituation that's very unfamiliar
(03:23):
to us, because most men just innature they're just built,
protected and take care of ourspouses.
But when things happen orthings that we can't control is
a very challenging situation forany man.
So for me, we got married alittle bit older in our lives.
We were mature and we didn'tthink we would have any children
(03:45):
.
And then when we said you knowwhat, let's go ahead and try.
And it was a really gut-richingexperience because the first
time she got pregnant we werekind of excited like, wow, this
is really going to happen.
And what made it so interesting, Michelle, was I was a youth
pastor doing this time.
So everybody would always sayyou guys take so much care of
(04:08):
other people's children.
We're going to pray that Godblesses you with your own
children.
So that first time it happenedwe really thought like, wow,
this is God rewarding us forbeing so faithful in our own
ministry as being a youth pastorand Veronica being a youth
leader.
But I tell you, when thatsituation happened, where
Veronica miscarried I mean I hadnever experienced anything like
(04:30):
that before.
It was just such a I mean, itjust rocked our world.
Just being honest.
It was just devastating.
Michelle (04:39):
Darrell, I'm so sorry for your losses and I can only
imagine the feeling of workingwith kids in youth group and
then wanting to have children ofyour own and then later having
to miscarriage.
It's very, very difficult.
So I know you had a full-timejob and you were working with
the youth group at church and Iimagine you took some time off,
(05:00):
but can you talk about returningto that environment with the
other kids when others knew whathappened?
It must have been reallydifficult to remain strong.
Darrell (05:11):
The work part wasn't a big deal at that time, because
things happen to a lot of people.
But in the ministry it's like,where is that timeline when you
can come back and stand in frontof people?
So it took us a long time toreally get ourselves together,
not to fake it and kind of standin front of people like, oh,
we're okay?
And that was not the case.
You know, we were just tellingpeople we're still in the
(05:32):
process, just give us time andspace.
So then once we got throughthat and we're like okay, we're
good and we're moving forward,and then Veronica was pregnant
the second time and then we'rekind of nervous like, oh, hey,
is this really going to happen?
And once you got through acouple of stages we were like,
okay, I think this is it.
We got excited again.
(05:53):
But then the second time shemiscarried and that pain was
harder than the first pain,because now you're like what's
going on?
Never was why me or why us, butit was like how do we get
through this?
And so the emotions that I wasmanaging was definitely hard,
because I wanted to be there formy wife and in most situations
(06:16):
a lot of men are really good atcompartmentalizing things.
So for me I had to put my griefto the side and say I'll get to
it when I can.
I need to be there for Veronica, yeah.
And what was really good wasVeronica was very wise and she
was asking me hey, how are youfeeling as a husband?
So that kind of helped out,because then I was able to share
(06:39):
with her and then I did have areally good inner circle of men
that gave me time and space.
But then they would come andjust say, hey, if you want to
talk, we're here.
And one thing I like aboutthose friends they didn't let me
sit too long.
They really put themselves outthere to say, hey, now it's just
you ready or not, but we'regoing to keep asking you until
(07:00):
you are.
We don't want you to fall intoa sense of depression or a loan
or kind of strike out the wholeworld type of thing.
I'm really glad that they didthat, but definitely having
friends that really cared aboutme.
Michelle (07:13):
Yeah, I think it's great that both your wife and
your friends were there for youand that they were also
sensitive and understanding.
But you were getting ready toreturn to work soon and your job
was pretty demanding back in DC.
You were a senior leader andlots of people were counting on
you back at the office.
But grief can be so messy forother people and now you're
(07:35):
about to enter into it.
Can you tell us how youapproached it and how others
responded to it?
Darrell (07:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm one of those individualswith some organization.
I was a mentor, I was a coachfor a lot of people, so it
wasn't like I was unknown, itcould just hide in a corner.
I was that person thateverybody came to.
It was almost like a runningjoke, like if your day is going
terrible or you can't seeanything good, make sure you
(08:02):
walk by his desk because you'regoing to find a way to turn
something into positive andyou're going to walk away
feeling better.
So me being in that mode ofdespair and grief really did
shake a lot of people becausethey're like you know, who
comforts a comforter, and thatwas really kind of the quote.
(08:22):
And for me, once I got to apoint, again, I wasn't the super
person that bounced right back,it took me time, right, but
once I got to a point I wasready.
I reached out to my seniorleader and said, hey, I know my
status around here and I helpmotivate people.
So I want to kind of take adifferent approach.
I want to make sure I went topeople ahead of time to let them
(08:44):
know it was okay, becausesometimes people they want to
help but they don't know howthey want to say something they
don't know when.
So I was like you know what,let me take that burden off.
I made it a point to go toeverybody's office.
I just went to visit everybodyone-on-one to make sure they
were understanding that I'm okay, you can come ask questions.
(09:04):
And then you also you knowyoung people that work that talk
about their children.
So I want to let them knowplease don't stop talking about
the joy that you're having.
Matter of fact, I encouragedthem, I told them that sharing
the joy about your kids willhelp me.
That really gave them morecomfort, like, okay, I didn't
want that to be awkward, so theycouldn't talk about those
(09:26):
things.
So it was good for me to takethat initial step, to go to each
one of them one-on-one andahead of time, and then once I
can talk about how I was feelingand letting them know that
being back in this environmentis really going to help me get
back to where I wanted to go andwho I need to be.
I think that really kind oftook the pause and the unknown
(09:50):
from my coworkers and allowedthem to also help me.
You go through the grieving byyourself, but then there's also
grieving at work.
So it allowed all of us to kindof walk through this together.
Michelle (10:03):
Well, that is truly inspirational to hear someone
say I took the time to approachother people and tell them it
was okay and all the things youdid.
That took a lot of strength,but you mentioned before you
said that you had tocompartmentalize your grief
because you had to care forVeronica.
Of course, but that's what yousaid.
Men tend to do.
So, in addition to the strengththat you had and that you
(10:26):
exercised with other people, didyou have moments of grieving
alone and, if so, what did thatlook like?
Darrell (10:32):
I did A lot of times, you know.
At that time Veronica wouldkind of cry herself to sleep.
So I would, you know, kind ofbe there for her and then, once
I knew she was in a sound sleep,I would get out of the room and
I would go down to the den andI would just pray and again,
play gospel music, cry, justwhatever I felt.
I just let it come out becauseI found out that it was
(10:54):
important for me not to let thatstuff bottle up at me because
eventually, I don't care howstrong you think you are, It'll
start wearing down on your body,you'll start getting sickness,
and the last thing I needed wasto get sick while Veronica was
going through this.
So I made sure that I did have,you know, my time by myself.
(11:14):
I played my favorite songs andthat helped me out a lot.
People didn't know me in thereal big, in the gospel rap, but
at that time they wanted anyrap.
Right, I needed to hear someKurt Franklin or Fred Hammonds,
you know music that really justkind of just reminded me that,
hey, it's going to be okay.
Michelle (11:33):
Darrell, thanks for your willingness to talk about
how you grieve, because it'shonest and real, and I think it
probably makes people feel a lotless alone in their own grief.
And I couldn't agree with youmore about holding emotions in
and the effect on our physicalbodies, because I remember
thinking that going back to workfor me would be a good
(11:54):
distraction in the beginning andit was, but I didn't realize
that I needed to let it out aswell.
So I experienced anxiety,sleeplessness, headaches, chest
pain, you name it.
So, darrell, having gonethrough the painful experience
of losing two babies, you andyour wife finally got the news
(12:15):
that she was pregnant again, andit seemed like everything was
going well this time.
And then you told me that onthe day she was going into labor
, you're at the hospital.
You received the horrible newsthat your wife's sister suddenly
passed away from an aneurysm.
So here you are at thisintersection of joy and sorrow
(12:35):
yet again, and I know you had agreat relationship with your
wife's sister, Corliss, and thatyou knew her family as well.
So how did this news hit you onwhat should have been such a
joyful day?
Darrell (12:48):
Yeah, that was definitely devastating.
She was just this amazingperson.
I mean just love all around.
Right, she was the oldest, buteverybody loved her.
It was hard because it wassomebody that I didn't know but
I heard of.
I actually spent time with herand her husband, her older kids,
(13:09):
so it was really, really hard.
So I had a lot of emotions withmyself, just like what's going
on?
Why is this happening?
Not necessarily again, why us?
But it was like you'restruggling with you know
whatever that message is.
Can you please help me get itsooner rather than later,
(13:30):
because I don't understand.
I know things happen all thetime.
I just need some help on my end.
The answer that I wanted was sothat I could eventually help
her.
Should she come to me and sayyou know what you know?
Why do you think this happened?
Or what do you think the lessonis with this old part of me was
(13:51):
?
I was trying to get answers formyself in addition to, should
the conversation come up with us, I want to be able to at least
say something to say.
You know, what if this happenedbecause of this, or what if this
happened because of that, whichnone of it could be the right
answer at all, but just want tohave something to say or to add
(14:11):
to the conversation Because,again, as a husband, you just
want to be there for your wife,and even for me, again, that's
one of those situations where,even though I wanted to grieve
for her as well, I had to put itto the side because I wanted to
have some possible I don't sayanswers, but at least discussion
(14:32):
points, when the two of useventually talked about it and I
was definitely in a sense ofsearching for answers myself,
trying to figure out, you know,what could I say and then also
what not to say.
That's another thing forhusbands.
We really try to put ourselvesin a place where we don't want
to say anything stupid,heartless.
I'm very careful, I will pauseand, to my detriment, I will
(15:00):
remain silent before sayingsomething bad, even though
silent is not good either.
As a husband, sometimes I wantto say something and we bite our
tongue, bite our lip, becausewe don't want to say anything
that we're going to regret.
So I was.
Michelle (15:15):
That's so good.
That's wisdom for sure.
Darrell (15:19):
You learn, you learn you learn Well.
Michelle (15:22):
So I really want to talk to you and get your opinion
about this, because I know youdo a lot of speaking and you
coach people and you just havethis experience and I know that,
having experienced a loss of achild myself.
It's one of those things wherequestions swirl in your head and
you were at that place whereyou were kind of waiting for
answers and to get in a goodplace of confidence to be able
(15:44):
then to go back to talk to yourwife and be assured about why
things happen the way they did.
So can we talk about theoverall concept of how life can
throw these trials and tragediesat us?
Well, at the same time, we haveblessings and beautiful things
in our life and I thinksometimes it's hard to
comprehend the why, especiallywhen bad things happen to good
(16:06):
people.
So can you address that fromyour perspective?
Darrell (16:11):
Yeah, unfortunately, I had this conversation with a lot
of people, especially peoplethat know that I'm a man of
faith.
A lot of times I don't tellpeople.
I just allowed it to happennaturally.
And then when they do, they'relike oh, I didn't know you were
a man of faith, I have somequestions for you.
So they will ask you a lot.
But a lot of times I tell you,Michelle I try not to be this
(16:34):
know-it-all I'm very honest withpeople and I tell them that,
even as a man of faith, thereare some mysteries that we just
don't know.
Later on, maybe through thedoctors doing further tests, you
may find out that there wasmaybe some type of thing that
was going on in the baby thatwas going to eventually cause
(16:55):
them not to have a full life.
And I always say things in aquestion like what if?
And God's infinite wisdom andnothing that we know of that.
Maybe he knew that we wouldwrestle with the pain a little
bit better now versus ithappening later.
I say things such as well maybeGod allowed this experience to
(17:18):
happen because he knew there's alevel inside of you that's
deeper than what you couldimagine, and maybe this is
something that's going to bringout that deepness, not just for
yourself but maybe later downthe road when you feel
comfortable that you may be ableto talk to somebody else that's
in a similar situation.
So for me, I just try to ask alot of different questions, even
(17:41):
if they're not a person offaith, just in their wisdom and
their own personal strength.
I tell them that they will getthose answers eventually on
their own, because God doesn'twant them to walk around this
earth and just not know and havethat emptiness throughout the
rest of their lives.
I always tell them to payattention to their life moving
(18:03):
forward.
For me I listen to gospel andmusic, but for them it could be
any music that they listen to,or poetry that they normally
read, or books, movies.
I tell them you can get thatanswer in any way.
I just share with them and kindof be open when that happens,
(18:23):
because if you're reallysearching you will get that
answer.
Michelle (18:27):
Well, thank you for your thoughts on this topic.
I mentioned before that you'rea pastor, so I appreciate and
probably others appreciate yourfaith-based perspective.
I loved it when you explainedthat there are mysteries in this
life that we'll never fullyunderstand and that perhaps God
knew that we would handlesomething difficult at this time
(18:47):
in life better than later.
Also, when you talked about howthe experience might have taken
the individual to a new levelof depth.
I think that is so true.
I remember one of my previousguests who tragically lost her
daughter talked about her othertwo children having a greater
sense of empathy toward othersas a result of what they've been
(19:08):
through.
So yeah, I know the pain ofgrief can really change us in a
positive way, like you said.
So I want to talk about purpose.
You said maybe there would be areason that this happened that
can be used, so a lot of peoplelike myself, after a great loss,
will maybe start a podcast orwrite a book.
(19:28):
You have coaching services thatyou offer and you're speaking
engagements to do so.
Can you talk about your view ofhow these tragedies and trials
are allowed in our life to helpus find purpose?
Darrell (19:42):
Yes, that is a very important lesson for people to
understand.
Here's the thing the paindoesn't go away.
I tell people, it's all time.
It may come to you in differentways later on, but that's
always going to be there.
So we do have a choice withwhat we can do with that
(20:02):
reaction to that.
We can react in a negative wayor we can do something totally
opposite to say how can Ichannel this into something
different?
And the example of that inregards to where you are in the
United States.
You see people that have anunexpected loss and then they
(20:23):
start a charity or they open upa scholarship with that person's
name.
All those individuals were inthe same position that we were
in, but somehow, when they werealready, they figured out.
I need to do something withthis emotion and I believe with
time, with great mentors andfamily support, we can all get
(20:47):
to a point where we can askourselves what can I do now?
What can I do next?
What can I do to turn thistragedy into at least a little
bit of joy for somebody else?
Because I can't really do itfor myself, because that loss is
just too big.
What if I can help somebodyelse?
Maybe it'll make it a little biteasier and that's why I like
(21:09):
your show, because there's a lotof examples of people, as you
said, that out there tragedy.
They wrote a book, they starteda podcast, they started support
groups in their community, theyled support groups in their
faith-based institutions.
So there's a lot of differentthings and that's just the same,
not even from a spiritualperspective, but just from a
(21:31):
life perspective.
I just think that's one ofthose things as humans that we
get to experience to be able tohelp someone else down the road.
It's hard to explain, but Iknow people when they hear this
they'll be able to go back andsay, oh, I do remember hearing
this on the news or readingabout that story, and there's
(21:52):
some truth into people turningpain into something positive.
Michelle (21:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really true,Darrell.
You're such a kind andcompassionate person and it's
clear to me that you want tohelp other people with the hard
things they go through in life.
And you yourself had adifficult life as a child,
growing up in a toughneighborhood, but you pushed
past the negative influencesaround you.
You pursued college, got yourMBA and then landed a great
(22:20):
federal job on the White Housestaff and with your hard work
you earned your way to acomfortable and successful life.
But you also experienced a lossof two children and a close
family member, and through itall, you chose to remain
faithful and you and your wifenever lost hope.
You told us you went back towork after your losses instead
(22:42):
of isolating in your grief, andyou helped those around you feel
comfortable in theirinteractions with you, and you
said you never asked why me?
Because you knew that lots ofpeople go through loss in life,
and you encouraged others tocontinue sharing their joys of
parenthood with you.
You talked about how you knewthat holding in emotions can
(23:03):
affect your physical health andthat you needed to be strong
physically to continue to carefor your wife, and you shared
how you sought out and receivedcounsel and support from your
friends.
You listened to music and criedand prayed in your deepest
moments of grief, and that youtried to quickly discern the
message or lesson that youneeded to learn in your sorrow
(23:25):
in order to heal and moveforward in your life.
Such good stuff, Darrell.
What other lessons have youlearned, having gone through all
of this?
Can you share with someonelistening right now who needs
hope?
Darrell (23:39):
I take.
One of the big life lessonsthat I've learned is, for me,
everything happened for a reason.
Now I might not understand thatreason, I might not even agree
with that reason and I may notget it for a longer time than
when it happened, but I dobelieve that there are some
lessons that teach us something.
And then there's also,unfortunately, some experiences
that we go through because,whether you're a person of faith
(24:03):
or as God, or if you're not aperson of faith, life itself
puts you in a situation to helpsomebody else down the road.
And this is very evident,Michelle, especially with
children.
I'm always so amazed howchildren can be so resilient and
, unlike adults, they know whatto do to comfort a friend.
(24:24):
They're so amazed.
I love just watching how theyinteract, especially with the
youth pastor.
I would notice somebody thatlost a brother or sister and I
knew somebody in my ministry waslike that.
I would say you don't have todo this, but if you feel led,
you just kind of go talk toJohnny and don't ask him a lot
(24:47):
of questions, but just kind ofjust let him know that you lost
a brother.
To Don't say I know how youfeel, right, don't say that, but
just say, hey, I lost a brotherto you, want to talk to
somebody.
I'm here and kids are so great.
I learned a lot of lessons fromthe kids in youth ministry than
the lessons they learned from me, because they just have this
(25:07):
way of just being there forsomeone else and I use a lot of
those lessons when I talk toadults to say sometimes things
happen.
Pay attention to either downthe road where you may find
yourself put in a situationbecause of life, where there's
somebody that's going throughsomething similar.
It's never the same, but it'ssomething similar.
(25:29):
And that's why I always tellpeople don't be surprised if you
find yourself being somebodyelse's light while they're going
through their darkness,regardless of how hard it gets
and I know darkness is nevergoing to go away.
But I just want to leaveeverybody with a message of hope
(25:49):
regardless of how cloudy thedays are, even if it doesn't
seem like it'll happen, brighterdays will come.
It won't replace the pain, butyou will find a way just to put
that one step in front of theother.
And then the next day, the nextday, and then you just find
yourself moving full.
Michelle (26:09):
Yeah, I think that is the message that I wish I had
back then, in my deepest momentsof grief after losing Sean that
brighter days will come.
It's so hard to believe whenyou're in the pit, but we know
it to be true now and we want toshare it with everybody today.
Darrell, thank you so much forbeing a model of positivity in
(26:29):
the midst of hard times.
I truly appreciate you and I'mso grateful that you agreed to
be my guest on the show today.
Thanks again, Darrell.
Darrell (26:37):
No, Michelle, thank you for having me and thank you for
your podcast.
Again, this is something that'sreally really needed.
So glad that you were led to dothis.
Michelle (26:46):
Thank you.
So, for those of you listening,I hope this message arrived at
just the right time for you.
I hope you were encouraged toknow that people who have
suffered great loss can survivethe pain and go on to do great
things.
Darrell had the difficult jobof supporting a grieving wife
(27:09):
while coping with his own grief,but he also learned the value
of getting support, expressinghis sorrow and helping other
people interact with grievers,and he recognized that young
people seemed to naturally comealongside their friends with a
beautiful way of being presentthat stood out to him.
My prayer is that you'd becomforted in your grief today,
(27:31):
that you'd be blessed by otherpeople who would support and
love you in exactly the way thatyou need right now, and I pray
that you would heal and havehope for the future and that
you'd have a desire to moveforward, even though it hurts
right now, and one day you'll beready to help someone else with
(27:52):
the lessons you learned in yourloss.
Thanks for listening.
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