July 26, 2024 • 33 mins
What happens when your deepest faith is tested by unimaginable suffering? In this episode, I talk with David Libby, who explains how he and his family contracted Lyme disease. He shares the emotional and physical toll of watching his wife and daughters endure excruciating pain, while he himself became their primary caregiver despite his own illness.
A self-taught student of theology, well-versed Christian apologist and published author, David has much to offer on the topics of theology, atheism, and adversity with insights from historical figures like Ernst Haeckel and Charles Darwin. We explore the dysteleological argument, its counterpoints to the teleological argument for God's existence, and the biblical perspective on imperfections in the world.
This episode encourages you to hold onto faith and find comfort in God's presence, even amidst life's most challenging trials.
David's book on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Different-World-Gods-Sovereignty-Suffering/dp/B0C9S8SK5M
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:09):
Well, hey, everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss.
To inspire you and give youhope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
When tragedy strikes, we'reoften unprepared and when we
find ourselves facing the mostdevastating moments of our lives
(00:32):
, we can come undone and feelhopeless.
And people of faith tell us totrust God and that He'll work it
all out for our good.
But when we're in the midst ofthe trauma and the shock and the
pain, clinging to our faith cansometimes be just as
challenging as what we may begoing through.
(00:54):
And it's been said that a faiththat hasn't been tested can't
be trusted, and I understandthose words better now than I
ever have since losing my sonSean, when my faith was tested.
Well, my guest today isintimately acquainted with pain
and suffering.
His faith was radically put tothe test several years ago when
(01:18):
he and his wife, and then histwo daughters, became severely
ill and his two daughters becameseverely ill.
And prior to the adversity thatwould come, he served in the
Orthodox Presbyterian Church,first as a deacon and then as an
elder.
He's a self-taught student oftheology and a well-versed
Christian apologist.
He's also the author of theencouraging and inspirational
(01:41):
book called A Different WorldGod's Sovereignty in the Face of
Suffering.
His name is David Libby andit's my pleasure to have him as
my guest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified David.
David (01:54):
Well, thank you, Michelle .
I'm very glad to be here.
Michelle (01:58):
Well, David, why don't you just start out by briefly
describing the lifestyle and theliving environment that you and
your family had prior to theillnesses, and what you love
most about that lifestyle?
David (02:12):
Well, the lifestyle that my family and I have enjoyed,
really for more than onegeneration, is somewhat
different from what is normaltoday, but it would not have
been different from what isnormal just a generation ago.
A generation ago, people alllived the way we do.
So we basically live what'susually called a homesteading
lifestyle.
(02:32):
We live very close to the land,raise our own animals, grow our
own food.
We live in a very rural part ofthe country, in rural Maine.
Maine has a low population tobegin with, and we're in a
lightly populated part of Maine,so very rural.
We've lived a lifestyle wherewe do a lot of outdoor stuff
(02:56):
like hunting, fishing, gardening, foraging for wild edible
plants and mushrooms and, youknow, camping.
We don't go camping atcampsites, we go camping in
remote, undiscovered areas.
you know, kind of bust out alittle campsite out of the brush
somewhere.
And that's the way we've livedand we've enjoyed almost every
(03:18):
bit of it.
I'll get to the almost part ina minute.
We just love God's creation, welove seeing his handiwork up
close and personal.
We just love the outdoors andlove living that way.
We've enjoyed almost every partof it.
The part we haven't enjoyed wascontracting Lyme disease
because of this lifestyle andit's caused an awful lot of
(03:40):
suffering for a good many years.
Michelle (03:43):
Yeah, well, thanks for describing it and kind of
explaining the way that youlived and you brought up the
Lyme disease.
And in your book you say thatobviously that was an unintended
consequence of the lifestylethat you were living and that
you and your family were bittenby dozens of ticks and that you
all ended up with Lyme disease.
(04:04):
And you said that the diseasewas not initially diagnosed
properly and that your family'scondition worsened to the point
of indescribable pain andsuffering and that your symptoms
ended up at one point beinglesser than your wife and your
girls, and so you were theprimary caregiver and emotional
support for them.
(04:25):
How did it impact youemotionally seeing your loved
ones in a state like this?
David (04:32):
It was very, very hard.
It was very difficult to seepeople I love suffering
intensely and not be able to doanything about it.
I told my daughters often Iwish that I could take their
symptoms upon myself, and thenthey would tell me, well, you
have to work and we don't.
I would say, well, I'll takeyour symptoms on days off.
Then I was quite ill myself attimes, but it was fairly easy
(04:55):
for me to treat.
And the reason why it waseasier for me to treat than for
them is mainly because of agenetic mutation that they have,
which I do not have.
It's kind of complicated andI'm a layman so I have a hard
time explaining it all, butbecause they all have this
genetic mutation, it's been verydifficult for them to treat.
(05:16):
The worst part of the diseasefor them wasn't so much what the
Borrelia spirochetes do, butthe fact that the combination of
Lyme and this mutation shutdown the body's ability to deal
with toxins.
So that was the biggest part ofthe problem.
You know, every day we'reexposed to tons and tons of
toxins and the food that we eatand the air that we breathe and
the clothes that we wear andmost of us, the the body takes
(05:39):
care of it.
The body is very well designedright down on the cellular level
to take out, get rid of toxinsand to take in nutrients.
You know, god designed the bodyvery well to do this.
And my girls because of theLyme the Lyme is a big piece of
the puzzle that function wasnearly shut down, so they were
really being poisoned to deathslowly.
For me it was fairly easy totreat.
(06:01):
I would get sick, I would treatit and I would get better.
Okay so yeah, it was fairly easyto treat.
I would get sick, I would treatit and I would get better.
Okay so yeah, it had to beterrible on you, just kind of
(06:23):
watching both us like the lowestpoint of both the physical and
emotional pain that you wentthrough and how you reacted to
that.
Yeah, the lowest point, I wouldsay probably was more than one
low point.
So the disease it was verypainful.
It caused my wife and bothdaughters to have severe pain
(06:45):
throughout their bodies.
My wife which says on assetfelix, she had shards of broken
glass all throughout her bodyCaused severe swelling in the
joints, flu-like symptoms allthe time.
The worst part of it wasactually and this is a whole lot
worse than those physicalsymptoms, and they were bad
enough.
There were times when my wifewas bedridden for days at a time
and we were awfully close to awheelchair Never quite there
(07:08):
because she's so tough.
But worse than the physicalsymptoms were a lot of mental
problems, psychotic-type stuff,bad seizures every single day.
And then my youngest daughterwould have episodes of what we
came to call the badness thatwas her word.
If they were really bad.
She called them the bad badness, but it would be a combination
(07:28):
of horrible seizures, bodytwisting in ways that I didn't
know bodies could twist in,coupled with excruciating pain
and all kinds of psychosis andbad stuff going on along with it
.
She also had what's calledsound sensitivity and that was
very, very bad.
Anyway, it was years.
It was about 10 years for mygirls about 20 years for my wife
(07:50):
.
And you asked about the lowpoint.
And I would say the lowestpoints were when it first really
got bad and we finally got apositive diagnosis and I thought
, well, we'll be able to beatthis now, now that we finally
know what it is.
And it went on, you know, ayear, two years, only getting
worse even after we're, you know, even after we're aggressively
(08:12):
treating it.
And that was a bit of a lowpoint to see, you know, to
finally have a glimmer of hopeand then have that hope
extinguished.
And then probably the otherreally low point was actually
kind of toward the end of theirintense suffering.
It had reached a climax ofbadness and these bad seizures
and badness episodes everysingle day.
(08:33):
By the grace of God this isreally interesting.
By the grace of God, there wasnever a time when all three were
down all at the same time.
So they were able to function.
Because I had to work.
Half my income was going tomedical bills, so they were able
to function because I had towork Half my income was going to
medical bills, so I had to workduring the day and then I would
take over at night caring forthem.
A lot of one or two hour ofsleep nights, occasionally a
(08:54):
zero sleep night.
But right to the end of it itkind of climaxed to a point
where it was extreme extreme andwe discovered that they had
mold illness.
Mold toxins were a huge pieceof the puzzle.
We lived in a house that webuilt ourselves.
(09:14):
It was a fair sized house and apiece of land that my father
had owned, a piece of land weabsolutely loved.
We learned that the only way todeal with this mold illness was
to get out of the house andleave all our belongings behind.
You know, that was quite a lowpoint.
The house wasn't terribly moldy, but there was a little mold
somewhere, and almost everyhouse in New England would be as
(09:38):
bad.
But we have a friend who had afairly new construction garage
with an apartment above and hewas very, very careful about
things like mold.
He used dehumidifiers all thetime and so he let us move in
with him.
We lived there for two yearswhile I all by myself cleaned
out that house, you know, threwaway most of our stuff, sold the
(09:59):
house you know this is, youknow, working during the day,
still working, you know, 50, 60hours a week, and then working
on the house nights and got itcleaned out, sold, bought and
built a new house, and all thattook about two years.
And I don't think we would havemade it if at that point, if
when we moved out of that house,if they had moved into the
apartment over the garage, ifthey had remained as ill, I
(10:20):
don't think we'd have made it.
But we saw improvements rightaway.
You know, right away they allof a sudden were doing a whole
lot better.
So but anyway, those areprobably probably the two lowest
low points.
So sorry for the long answer.
As you're telling me this, I'mthinking that there's so much
loss associated with what youall went through, and now,
because of the house, that'sobviously a big loss in all of
(10:43):
the memories, but the loss oftheir ability to function the
way they used to function andyou all to function as a family
is gone.
So you're grieving that pastand everything that you had, and
so that had to be terriblyemotional for you as well, right
?
Yeah, yeah, yeah definitely.
Michelle (11:04):
In your book, you talked about the question that
many of us have wrestled with, Ithink, which is how a perfect
and loving God who doesn't makemistakes would have created a
world so full of mistakes.
In fact, you said that was thevery question that you were
facing and that was a place inwhich your book was actually
conceived.
And so tell us about thedisconnect that you described
(11:29):
between an encyclopedia of headknowledge and an application of
that knowledge, and you said themuddy and bloody trenches of
life.
Can you lay that out for us?
How did that work for you?
David (11:41):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Well, you've got two very goodquestions kind of put together
in one there.
The first about what's oftencalled the distelological
argument.
An atheist, nationalist andphilosopher named Ernst Haeckel
came up with that name, thedistelological argument.
An atheist, nationalist andphilosopher named Ernst Haeckel
came up with that name, thedistelological argument, in
response to what is often calledthe teleological argument for
the existence of God.
Ernst Haeckel didn't come upwith the argument.
(12:05):
I know David Hume used theargument in his work Dialogues
Concerning Natural Religion,prior to Haeckel.
The teleological argument sayspeople use analogies like this
all the time If you're walkingout in the woods and you find a
pocket watch, a gold pocketwatch, laying on the ground, and
you pick it up and it'sfunctioning and you hear it
ticking and all the little tinyintricate gears are all moving,
(12:27):
you don't think, huh, this musthave just come about by blind
chance.
It just kind of fell togetherby accident.
You know, you assume there wassomebody who made it.
It was a designer.
And so the argument goes thatyou know, the woods you found
the watch in are almostinfinitely more complex than the
watch itself.
So you know, shouldn't thatalso be assumed, to have had a
designer.
(12:47):
And then you know David Humeand Haeckel and others, charles
Darwin.
Others countered by saying well,if that's true, that it must
not have been the God of theBible, because the Bible tells
us he's a perfect God, a God whodoes not make mistakes.
But look around at the world,it's full of mistakes, there's
all kinds of stuff thatshouldn't be happening, be
(13:14):
happening.
And the answer to that argumentthere are a lot of answers that
we hear and see in Christiancircles, I think,
well-intentioned answers thatreally miss the mark, in my
opinion.
I think the correct answer isif you read Genesis, chapter 3,
romans 8, lots of other placesin the Bible, you find that none
of these mistakes are actuallymistakes.
You know, because man fell intosin, god has cursed his
creation.
I will greatly increase yourpain, he says in Genesis 3,
(13:37):
because of this fall into sin.
So I guess that would be myshort answer to the teleological
argument.
There are no mistakes.
Everything is functioning asGod designed it to function,
even the painful things.
I've been asking why would Godhave created mosquitoes?
People are surprised sometimesto hear me say well, likely a
(13:58):
number of reasons, but onereason to bite us and make us
itch is part of God's curse.
Look at it this way, a littleword picture I actually use in
the book.
Imagine Adam working out in oneof his crop fields under the
blazing sun.
He's sweaty and tired and hissons and servants are all
miserable and they're pullingthorns and weeds out of the
(14:19):
garden.
And along comes a 27-year-oldphilosopher, atheist philosopher
, and he says hey, I've heard,you believe in a perfect God, a
God who doesn't make mistakes,but you're pulling weeds out of
your garden.
Doesn't that prove this?
God doesn't exist.
And I think Adam would say well, no, god is the one who put
these weeds here.
You know, read Genesis 3.
By the sweat of your brow, youwill now be able to live it.
(14:40):
You know, weeds and thorns willnow grow in your garden.
So there are no mistakes.
This world is sustained andgoverned by a sovereign God of
providence and everything worksaccording to his decretive will.
So anyway, we could get intothat in a whole lot more depth.
(15:00):
But the other question was whatis this disconnect between an
encyclopedia of head knowledge,knowing the right answers, and
then working that out actuallyon the battleground in the muddy
and bloody extensions and theextensions?
Of course we all recognize thatas a as a military analogy.
So if you have any militarylisteners, forgive me.
I'm not a military man, soforgive a non-military man for
(15:21):
using a military analogy.
But I've known a lot ofmilitary people.
I've known people who have beenin some pretty intense combat
and they all say that all thetraining that you undergo before
going into combat is all veryworthwhile.
It's very valuable, you know.
You know how to use your weapon, how to use it well, you know
(15:41):
how to deal with stress, becauseyou've got this really mean guy
you know called the drillsergeant who, uh, you know,
turns up the heat almost to thebreaking point.
You know, what it's like to betorn down and built back up.
But as soon as you get outthere onto the battlefield,
these guys all tell me thatthere's an aspect of that that
you're not prepared for.
There's a psychological aspect.
(16:02):
You know your weapon, you knowhow to do things.
Now, all of a sudden, you'rethere and can you really do it?
There's a disconnect.
The only way to connect thatdisconnect is to actually be
there and do it.
So as a theologian and elder inthe church and somebody who
took theology and philosophy andapologetics very seriously, I
was very familiar with what thecorrect answers are.
(16:24):
We counted all joy when wefaced various trials.
Right, that's what James 1tells us.
1 Corinthians 4 and 5, 1Corinthians or 2 Corinthians.
Anyway, we know that this lifeis filled with trials and
sufferings, and the author, paul, or the Holy Spirit through the
pen of Paul, tells us thatthese trials and sufferings,
these momentary lightafflictions, are working
(16:46):
together for us An eternalweight of glory in life to come.
So we know these things right,we've studied them and we know
them, and we know that we needto trust in the Lord.
He will not let us down, he'sthere with us.
I will never leave you norforsake you.
But then, when we findourselves in the heat of it, do
we actually do what we knowwe're supposed to do?
Do we actually trust him and dowe actually cling to him?
(17:07):
Do we continue to love him,even love him all the more, or
do we shake our fists at him andcurse him and turn away from
him?
And suffering seems to havethat winnowing effect.
People tend to be drawingcloser to the Lord or they tend
to be driven away from him, andit kind of separates the wheat
from the chaff, don't you think?
Michelle (17:27):
It does.
And, as you're saying that, Ikind of laugh because I feel
like I say that every episode.
You know, when I'm talking to aguest, that we always talk about
how people either draw closerto God or they run away from God
when these challenges in ourlife come.
And you know all of that headknowledge.
(17:48):
We know who stay so strong intheir faith even having been
through all of it, because, as Isaid in the intro, it really is
testing your faith when youhave to live it out.
And you see and that's why Iwas asking you about the
emotions that you experiencewatching your loved ones in the
trenches, because it's so hard.
It's so hard, you know and Iexperienced the loss of my son
(18:09):
too to make sense of it in thenatural sense of our minds, and
that's what the atheists aretrying to say and they struggle
with to make sense of a God thatwould allow that.
But those scriptures speak tothat, those very scriptures that
you cited, and those are thethings that kind of in a
supernatural sense, I believe,bring us hope, because it
(18:31):
doesn't compute in the naturalsense, wouldn't you agree?
David (18:34):
Right, I would.
I would agree with strongly.
Yes for sure.
Yeah, you know all the headknowledge and all that.
The head knowledge is important.
We should never look down atthe head knowledge like it's a
bad thing.
Some people do, unfortunately.
But what does the headknowledge accomplish for you if,
when you're tested, you failthe test?
You know, if anything, you'reworse off for having had the
(18:56):
head knowledge.
You know to whom much is given,much is expected.
So people can have very littlehead knowledge and truly trust
in the Lord, and that'scommendable.
You can have a whole lot ofhead knowledge and reject him,
and that's damnable reject them,and that's damnable.
Michelle (19:16):
I was thinking about when you mentioned 1st or 2nd
Corinthians.
I was thinking about in 2ndCorinthians, chapter 1, where it
talks about that we're tocomfort others with the comfort
that we've received from God.
And so when we go through thesethings it's like you said, the
head knowledge is there and youuse the example of the soldier.
You know, in the trenches theyget the training first, so the
(19:37):
training equips them and thenthey draw on what they've
learned when they're in thebattle, and that's kind of the
perfect analogy of what God doeswhen we go through these things
in life.
So in 1 James, that scriptureyou cited about, you know, count
it all joy.
It makes absolutely no senseprior to real testing in our
(19:57):
lives, at least for me, and Iknow I've read from a few
pastors that have written booksabout the fact that they've lost
their own children, and I'mthinking of Rick Warren and Greg
Laurie.
You know they've lost their kidsand they've talked about the
fact that they used to counselothers who were grieving and
(20:17):
then they did this for a lengthof time, you know, with that
head knowledge, and then whenthey lost their own children it
took them to a new depth ofempathy and understanding when
they were communicating withpeople after that.
Because of that, and that'swhat God wants, that's how he's
equipping us and building us up.
So, yeah, I love the way thatyou said that.
(20:39):
I guess what I want to know nowfrom you is based on everything
you said.
How did all of it change foryou when you finally realized
the truth of that?
Because you said thatintersection of head knowledge
and life application?
When you finally realized thetruth of that, because you said
that intersection of headknowledge and life application,
when you got your brain aroundit, what changed, if anything,
(21:00):
for the way your life went Well?
David (21:02):
yeah, yeah, very good question.
I think the biggest change washaving peace in the midst of the
storm.
The storm was still raging, butearly on I just wanted to be
done with it all.
I wanted them to get well.
Obviously I wanted that allalong, but when it looked like
they weren't going to be wellanytime soon, it was very hard
(21:25):
to have any kind of peace.
But finally losing thatdisconnect that we talked about
before brings a peace thatsurpasses understanding.
Really we can have peace in themidst of the storm.
In fact, one of the chapters ofmy book is one of the later
chapters is called it's aprivilege to enter this world,
this other world of, you know,serious suffering, and it sounds
(21:48):
kind of cheap and easy to saythat, but I really mean it.
It's actually a privilegebecause it gives us
opportunities to glorify Godthat we wouldn't have otherwise.
It gives us opportunities toinvest in things that really
matter.
So when we come to realizethose things and come to really
trust in the Lord in the midstof it, it does change the
perspective radically, a radicalparadigm shift in the
(22:10):
perspective, and we do havepeace and we do have eternal
hope.
That really is tangible.
Michelle (22:17):
Yeah, the privilege part.
When you mentioned that, I wasthinking about our conversation
before and I think we talkedabout Job for a little bit.
You know, and I think aboutthat privilege because you know
he was selected and God gaveapproval for Satan to have his
way with him.
You know if he will, and Ialways think about that story in
(22:37):
terms of you know that for me,and the loss of a child, and I
think about how Job, you know,the house caved in and he lost
all his kids in one day and it'sjust, it's impossible for me to
even think about it at thatlevel all of your kids.
And then scripture talks aboutthe fact that in the latter part
of his life was better than thefirst.
(22:59):
You know, when it closes it allout and it's like how, how
could that be?
But it's basically what we'retalking about right now.
So how would you liken yourrealization of scripture and the
way that it comforted you?
How would you liken that to Joband what he went through?
David (23:16):
Well, I would say, how would I liken my experience to
Job's?
I would say that, first of all,I think he suffered more than I
did, but that's beside thepoint.
But I would say that he endedup with the realization that is
the same one that I ended upwith, and that is, you know, in
my book I try to give answers.
(23:38):
I start out answering ErnstHaeckel's teleological argument
and then from there I move on tothe problem of evil how does
evil fit into God's sovereignplan?
And then from there I move onto some answers to these tough
questions.
Why did God ordain this realityfilled with suffering?
In the first place and thereare good answers in scripture
(23:59):
God has ordained a reality wherethere's a fall into sin and
suffering, for his glory giveshim the opportunity to display
his glorious justice, mercy andgrace that he wouldn't have
otherwise.
Well, you can push back againstthat answer.
You know, couldn't he havegiven us the capacity to know
these things withoutexperiencing them?
And you know there are alwaysways to push back against these
answers.
You know, god's ordaining aworld with a fallout of sin,
(24:22):
filled with suffering and soforth, gives him the occasion to
display an amazing outpouringof love that wouldn't have been
possible in a different world.
I think we really can know hislove with a depth that we
wouldn't have otherwise, becausewe're, you know, wretched
sinners who are loved by Godrather than deserving servants,
(24:44):
if there had been no fall intosin we would deserve Eden, but
we don't deserve it, and he haslavished it upon us anyway.
But beyond that, more than that,the means that he used to give
us paradise in the end is a verycostly, painful atonement that
he did for us.
(25:04):
So he entered our suffering andhe suffered with us and he
suffered for us.
But anyway, that answer can bepushed back against as well.
Why couldn't he just give us acapacity to love him as much
without all the suffering?
And so, anyway, there arealways ways to kind of push back
against these very good answersuntil you get to the place
where Job was Finally.
(25:25):
Maybe I'm going to go back toJob here.
But Job, the answer that God'sword gives, that cannot be
pushed back against any further.
The end of the line answer ishe is God and I'm not.
You know, his ways are higherthan my ways, and that's where
Job ended up.
At the end of the book Jobwanted answers, and at the end
of the book of Job, god justtold him I'm God and you're not,
(25:46):
basically.
Michelle (25:48):
And we can trust him and we can love him, the way you
described it, going to a newlevel of relationship with God
through it, and you mentionedthat with Job.
And what is that scripturewhere in Job he actually said
basically I thought I knew you,but now I have seen your face.
David (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Michelle (26:07):
And I think it's that realization.
Yeah, now, because we rely onGod, we need him like air after
we go through something likethis.
So he's created a new intimacythat with him that we would have
never like this.
So he's created a new intimacywith him that we would have
never had otherwise, right.
Absolutely, absolutely yeah wellsaid Let me ask you then, in
summary, given everything thatyou've gone through, that your
(26:30):
family has gone through and thatyou've had to suffer kind of
supporting them what are thosebig life lessons that you
learned that you could sharewith someone listening right now
who might just be going througha really challenging time, to
give them hope?
David (26:46):
Yeah, okay, the biggest life lesson is and I just looked
it up a minute ago while wewere talking it is 2 Corinthians
, not 1 Corinthians, chapter 4,and on to chapter 5, where Paul
talks about his momentary, lightafflictions, storing up an
eternal weight of glory in thelife to come.
And if you read the list ofafflictions Paul endured,
(27:09):
they're anything but momentaryor light by human standards.
He suffered a lot and heconsidered them momentary and
light.
Well, why is that?
It's because he had his eyesfixed on the end goal.
He had an eternal perspective,yes, and he knew that eternity
is, you know.
(27:30):
Let me draw an analogy thatshows how immense eternity is.
It's an analogy I use in mybook.
My daughter Bethany and Iwatched a lot of nature
documentaries when she wasreally sick and one of them was
on the Sahara Desert.
I didn't realize this at thetime, but the Sahara Desert is
as large in land mass andacreage as the entire United
States of America.
It's absolutely enormous.
(27:50):
So if you imagine a little birdthat flies down once every
thousand years and plucks awayone grain of sand, in all of
world history it would haveplucked away less than a pinch.
The eons of time that it wouldtake to remove one little shot
glass full would boggle ourminds.
(28:10):
A spoonful of sand.
The time it would take toremove that spoonful of sand.
I don't think we have a numberthat big.
We don't have a name.
Have a number that big thatwe've?
We don't have a name for anumber that big yet.
So try to imagine that bird,one grain every thousand years,
removing all the sand of adesert the size of the United
States of America.
That's a good picture ofeternity, right?
Well, no, actually it's not,because once that last grain is
(28:32):
removed, eternity has only begunit.
It still goes on forever.
So, with that in mind, my advicefor people, my parting comments
to people who are sufferingfirst of all, trust in the Lord.
If you don't know the Lord, ifyou don't have a relationship
with the Lord Jesus Christ, youneed to.
You need to submit to hisauthority, turn to him in faith.
(28:55):
Whoever believes in him willnot perish but have everlasting
life.
And when you do that, remindyourself every day that you have
eternity to look forward to.
Revelation 21 tells us.
He will wipe away every tearfrom our eyes, so there will no
longer be pain or sorrow, youknow, think of the tenderness of
that verse.
By the way, it doesn't say yourtears will dry up or your tears
(29:19):
will no longer flow.
It says I will wipe away everytear from your eye.
So you know we have eternityafter that to look forward to,
without this pain and suffering.
So you know it's right to sayour afflictions here are
momentary and they're also lightcompared to the weight of glory
.
So not only do we have a very,very long time to be without
(29:41):
these sufferings and a veryshort time to be with them, we
also have a sharp discrepancybetween the quality of the
suffering.
Now you know the bad quality,the pain and the good quality of
the reward that awaits us inheaven.
And 2 Corinthians 5, I thinkit's verse 10, actually tells us
(30:04):
that the former is contributingto the latter.
So you know you'll haveeternity to look back at this
tiny, tiny little blip of timeand be thankful for it, because
it actually contributed to whatyou're experiencing for all of
eternity in heaven.
So keep that perspective inmind.
Every moment can be hard to getthrough, but there's a very,
(30:26):
very finite number of thosemoments.
And just hang on.
Trust in the Lord.
Michelle (30:33):
Yeah, I think that's key.
Those two things go hand inhand, don't they?
Because if you don't have thatfaith, it will seem like there's
no end in sight.
So when you have that faith,then you can have the hope.
So that is the message that wewant to convey.
So thank you for that.
I love that answer, David.
David (30:52):
Well, thank you.
Michelle (30:52):
Yeah, very good.
Well, david, at this point Ijust want to say thank you so
much for agreeing to be my gueston the show.
I appreciated meeting you andgetting to know you, and I want
my guests to know that I'll puta link in the show notes to the
Amazon site where, if they'dlike, they can buy a copy of A
Different World God'sSovereignty in the Face of
Suffering.
(31:13):
David, thanks so much.
David (31:15):
Well, I appreciate it too , Michelle, very, very much.
It's been a pleasure talkingwith you.
Michelle (31:21):
Good to know there are fellow soldiers out there.
So for those of you listening,if you're facing serious
challenges right now and youfind yourself wondering why a
loving God would allow suchsuffering in your life, I hope
you found some comfort inDavid's words.
He told us how difficult it wasto watch his wife and daughter
(31:41):
suffer, and yet he could donothing to stop it.
And he himself became seriouslyill, but continued to work and
pay bills and take care of hisfamily.
He had the head knowledge toknow that God allows suffering
in this imperfect world.
But, like you might be, knowthat God allows suffering in
this imperfect world.
But, like you might be, hestruggled to apply it in his
(32:02):
circumstances, but only for awhile.
Then he realized that he hadbeen trained in the Word and
practiced in the knowledge ofGod.
And when the battle came thereal-life test of faith he used
what he knew to be true tocombat the hard things that were
a reality in his life.
He used what he knew to be trueto combat the hard things that
were a reality in his life.
God told us that in this worldwe would have trouble, but to
(32:26):
take heart, for he has overcomethe world.
So remember what David saidabout our lives now in light of
eternity this life is shortcompared to what's ahead if we
acknowledge and turn to him.
Ahead if we acknowledge andturn to Him.
So my prayer is that you woulddo that today, my friend.
Knowing God won't take awayyour troubles, but knowing that
(32:49):
He'll walk beside you in themmakes all the difference in the
world.
Thanks for listening.
Well, hey, everybody, and welcome back to Qualified,
the place where incrediblepeople share their stories of
overcoming great adversity andloss.
To inspire you and give youhope.
I'm Michelle Heaton.
When tragedy strikes, we'reoften unprepared and when we
find ourselves facing the mostdevastating moments of our lives
(00:32):
, we can come undone and feelhopeless.
And people of faith tell us totrust God and that He'll work it
all out for our good.
But when we're in the midst ofthe trauma and the shock and the
pain, clinging to our faith cansometimes be just as
challenging as what we may begoing through.
(00:54):
And it's been said that a faiththat hasn't been tested can't
be trusted, and I understandthose words better now than I
ever have since losing my sonSean, when my faith was tested.
Well, my guest today isintimately acquainted with pain
and suffering.
His faith was radically put tothe test several years ago when
(01:18):
he and his wife, and then histwo daughters, became severely
ill and his two daughters becameseverely ill.
And prior to the adversity thatwould come, he served in the
Orthodox Presbyterian Church,first as a deacon and then as an
elder.
He's a self-taught student oftheology and a well-versed
Christian apologist.
He's also the author of theencouraging and inspirational
(01:41):
book called A Different WorldGod's Sovereignty in the Face of
Suffering.
His name is David Libby andit's my pleasure to have him as
my guest on the show today.
Welcome to Qualified David.
David (01:54):
Well, thank you, Michelle .
I'm very glad to be here.
Michelle (01:58):
Well, David, why don't you just start out by briefly
describing the lifestyle and theliving environment that you and
your family had prior to theillnesses, and what you love
most about that lifestyle?
David (02:12):
Well, the lifestyle that my family and I have enjoyed,
really for more than onegeneration, is somewhat
different from what is normaltoday, but it would not have
been different from what isnormal just a generation ago.
A generation ago, people alllived the way we do.
So we basically live what'susually called a homesteading
lifestyle.
(02:32):
We live very close to the land,raise our own animals, grow our
own food.
We live in a very rural part ofthe country, in rural Maine.
Maine has a low population tobegin with, and we're in a
lightly populated part of Maine,so very rural.
We've lived a lifestyle wherewe do a lot of outdoor stuff
(02:56):
like hunting, fishing, gardening, foraging for wild edible
plants and mushrooms and, youknow, camping.
We don't go camping atcampsites, we go camping in
remote, undiscovered areas.
you know, kind of bust out alittle campsite out of the brush
somewhere.
And that's the way we've livedand we've enjoyed almost every
(03:18):
bit of it.
I'll get to the almost part ina minute.
We just love God's creation, welove seeing his handiwork up
close and personal.
We just love the outdoors andlove living that way.
We've enjoyed almost every partof it.
The part we haven't enjoyed wascontracting Lyme disease
because of this lifestyle andit's caused an awful lot of
(03:40):
suffering for a good many years.
Michelle (03:43):
Yeah, well, thanks for describing it and kind of
explaining the way that youlived and you brought up the
Lyme disease.
And in your book you say thatobviously that was an unintended
consequence of the lifestylethat you were living and that
you and your family were bittenby dozens of ticks and that you
all ended up with Lyme disease.
(04:04):
And you said that the diseasewas not initially diagnosed
properly and that your family'scondition worsened to the point
of indescribable pain andsuffering and that your symptoms
ended up at one point beinglesser than your wife and your
girls, and so you were theprimary caregiver and emotional
support for them.
(04:25):
How did it impact youemotionally seeing your loved
ones in a state like this?
David (04:32):
It was very, very hard.
It was very difficult to seepeople I love suffering
intensely and not be able to doanything about it.
I told my daughters often Iwish that I could take their
symptoms upon myself, and thenthey would tell me, well, you
have to work and we don't.
I would say, well, I'll takeyour symptoms on days off.
Then I was quite ill myself attimes, but it was fairly easy
(04:55):
for me to treat.
And the reason why it waseasier for me to treat than for
them is mainly because of agenetic mutation that they have,
which I do not have.
It's kind of complicated andI'm a layman so I have a hard
time explaining it all, butbecause they all have this
genetic mutation, it's been verydifficult for them to treat.
(05:16):
The worst part of the diseasefor them wasn't so much what the
Borrelia spirochetes do, butthe fact that the combination of
Lyme and this mutation shutdown the body's ability to deal
with toxins.
So that was the biggest part ofthe problem.
You know, every day we'reexposed to tons and tons of
toxins and the food that we eatand the air that we breathe and
the clothes that we wear andmost of us, the the body takes
(05:39):
care of it.
The body is very well designedright down on the cellular level
to take out, get rid of toxinsand to take in nutrients.
You know, god designed the bodyvery well to do this.
And my girls because of theLyme the Lyme is a big piece of
the puzzle that function wasnearly shut down, so they were
really being poisoned to deathslowly.
For me it was fairly easy totreat.
(06:01):
I would get sick, I would treatit and I would get better.
Okay so yeah, it was fairly easyto treat.
I would get sick, I would treatit and I would get better.
Okay so yeah, it had to beterrible on you, just kind of
(06:23):
watching both us like the lowestpoint of both the physical and
emotional pain that you wentthrough and how you reacted to
that.
Yeah, the lowest point, I wouldsay probably was more than one
low point.
So the disease it was verypainful.
It caused my wife and bothdaughters to have severe pain
(06:45):
throughout their bodies.
My wife which says on assetfelix, she had shards of broken
glass all throughout her bodyCaused severe swelling in the
joints, flu-like symptoms allthe time.
The worst part of it wasactually and this is a whole lot
worse than those physicalsymptoms, and they were bad
enough.
There were times when my wifewas bedridden for days at a time
and we were awfully close to awheelchair Never quite there
(07:08):
because she's so tough.
But worse than the physicalsymptoms were a lot of mental
problems, psychotic-type stuff,bad seizures every single day.
And then my youngest daughterwould have episodes of what we
came to call the badness thatwas her word.
If they were really bad.
She called them the bad badness, but it would be a combination
(07:28):
of horrible seizures, bodytwisting in ways that I didn't
know bodies could twist in,coupled with excruciating pain
and all kinds of psychosis andbad stuff going on along with it
.
She also had what's calledsound sensitivity and that was
very, very bad.
Anyway, it was years.
It was about 10 years for mygirls about 20 years for my wife
(07:50):
.
And you asked about the lowpoint.
And I would say the lowestpoints were when it first really
got bad and we finally got apositive diagnosis and I thought
, well, we'll be able to beatthis now, now that we finally
know what it is.
And it went on, you know, ayear, two years, only getting
worse even after we're, you know, even after we're aggressively
(08:12):
treating it.
And that was a bit of a lowpoint to see, you know, to
finally have a glimmer of hopeand then have that hope
extinguished.
And then probably the otherreally low point was actually
kind of toward the end of theirintense suffering.
It had reached a climax ofbadness and these bad seizures
and badness episodes everysingle day.
(08:33):
By the grace of God this isreally interesting.
By the grace of God, there wasnever a time when all three were
down all at the same time.
So they were able to function.
Because I had to work.
Half my income was going tomedical bills, so they were able
to function because I had towork Half my income was going to
medical bills, so I had to workduring the day and then I would
take over at night caring forthem.
A lot of one or two hour ofsleep nights, occasionally a
(08:54):
zero sleep night.
But right to the end of it itkind of climaxed to a point
where it was extreme extreme andwe discovered that they had
mold illness.
Mold toxins were a huge pieceof the puzzle.
We lived in a house that webuilt ourselves.
(09:14):
It was a fair sized house and apiece of land that my father
had owned, a piece of land weabsolutely loved.
We learned that the only way todeal with this mold illness was
to get out of the house andleave all our belongings behind.
You know, that was quite a lowpoint.
The house wasn't terribly moldy, but there was a little mold
somewhere, and almost everyhouse in New England would be as
(09:38):
bad.
But we have a friend who had afairly new construction garage
with an apartment above and hewas very, very careful about
things like mold.
He used dehumidifiers all thetime and so he let us move in
with him.
We lived there for two yearswhile I all by myself cleaned
out that house, you know, threwaway most of our stuff, sold the
(09:59):
house you know this is, youknow, working during the day,
still working, you know, 50, 60hours a week, and then working
on the house nights and got itcleaned out, sold, bought and
built a new house, and all thattook about two years.
And I don't think we would havemade it if at that point, if
when we moved out of that house,if they had moved into the
apartment over the garage, ifthey had remained as ill, I
(10:20):
don't think we'd have made it.
But we saw improvements rightaway.
You know, right away they allof a sudden were doing a whole
lot better.
So but anyway, those areprobably probably the two lowest
low points.
So sorry for the long answer.
As you're telling me this, I'mthinking that there's so much
loss associated with what youall went through, and now,
because of the house, that'sobviously a big loss in all of
(10:43):
the memories, but the loss oftheir ability to function the
way they used to function andyou all to function as a family
is gone.
So you're grieving that pastand everything that you had, and
so that had to be terriblyemotional for you as well, right
?
Yeah, yeah, yeah definitely.
Michelle (11:04):
In your book, you talked about the question that
many of us have wrestled with, Ithink, which is how a perfect
and loving God who doesn't makemistakes would have created a
world so full of mistakes.
In fact, you said that was thevery question that you were
facing and that was a place inwhich your book was actually
conceived.
And so tell us about thedisconnect that you described
(11:29):
between an encyclopedia of headknowledge and an application of
that knowledge, and you said themuddy and bloody trenches of
life.
Can you lay that out for us?
How did that work for you?
David (11:41):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Well, you've got two very goodquestions kind of put together
in one there.
The first about what's oftencalled the distelological
argument.
An atheist, nationalist andphilosopher named Ernst Haeckel
came up with that name, thedistelological argument.
An atheist, nationalist andphilosopher named Ernst Haeckel
came up with that name, thedistelological argument, in
response to what is often calledthe teleological argument for
the existence of God.
Ernst Haeckel didn't come upwith the argument.
(12:05):
I know David Hume used theargument in his work Dialogues
Concerning Natural Religion,prior to Haeckel.
The teleological argument sayspeople use analogies like this
all the time If you're walkingout in the woods and you find a
pocket watch, a gold pocketwatch, laying on the ground, and
you pick it up and it'sfunctioning and you hear it
ticking and all the little tinyintricate gears are all moving,
(12:27):
you don't think, huh, this musthave just come about by blind
chance.
It just kind of fell togetherby accident.
You know, you assume there wassomebody who made it.
It was a designer.
And so the argument goes thatyou know, the woods you found
the watch in are almostinfinitely more complex than the
watch itself.
So you know, shouldn't thatalso be assumed, to have had a
designer.
(12:47):
And then you know David Humeand Haeckel and others, charles
Darwin.
Others countered by saying well,if that's true, that it must
not have been the God of theBible, because the Bible tells
us he's a perfect God, a God whodoes not make mistakes.
But look around at the world,it's full of mistakes, there's
all kinds of stuff thatshouldn't be happening, be
(13:14):
happening.
And the answer to that argumentthere are a lot of answers that
we hear and see in Christiancircles, I think,
well-intentioned answers thatreally miss the mark, in my
opinion.
I think the correct answer isif you read Genesis, chapter 3,
romans 8, lots of other placesin the Bible, you find that none
of these mistakes are actuallymistakes.
You know, because man fell intosin, god has cursed his
creation.
I will greatly increase yourpain, he says in Genesis 3,
(13:37):
because of this fall into sin.
So I guess that would be myshort answer to the teleological
argument.
There are no mistakes.
Everything is functioning asGod designed it to function,
even the painful things.
I've been asking why would Godhave created mosquitoes?
People are surprised sometimesto hear me say well, likely a
(13:58):
number of reasons, but onereason to bite us and make us
itch is part of God's curse.
Look at it this way, a littleword picture I actually use in
the book.
Imagine Adam working out in oneof his crop fields under the
blazing sun.
He's sweaty and tired and hissons and servants are all
miserable and they're pullingthorns and weeds out of the
(14:19):
garden.
And along comes a 27-year-oldphilosopher, atheist philosopher
, and he says hey, I've heard,you believe in a perfect God, a
God who doesn't make mistakes,but you're pulling weeds out of
your garden.
Doesn't that prove this?
God doesn't exist.
And I think Adam would say well, no, god is the one who put
these weeds here.
You know, read Genesis 3.
By the sweat of your brow, youwill now be able to live it.
(14:40):
You know, weeds and thorns willnow grow in your garden.
So there are no mistakes.
This world is sustained andgoverned by a sovereign God of
providence and everything worksaccording to his decretive will.
So anyway, we could get intothat in a whole lot more depth.
(15:00):
But the other question was whatis this disconnect between an
encyclopedia of head knowledge,knowing the right answers, and
then working that out actuallyon the battleground in the muddy
and bloody extensions and theextensions?
Of course we all recognize thatas a as a military analogy.
So if you have any militarylisteners, forgive me.
I'm not a military man, soforgive a non-military man for
(15:21):
using a military analogy.
But I've known a lot ofmilitary people.
I've known people who have beenin some pretty intense combat
and they all say that all thetraining that you undergo before
going into combat is all veryworthwhile.
It's very valuable, you know.
You know how to use your weapon, how to use it well, you know
(15:41):
how to deal with stress, becauseyou've got this really mean guy
you know called the drillsergeant who, uh, you know,
turns up the heat almost to thebreaking point.
You know, what it's like to betorn down and built back up.
But as soon as you get outthere onto the battlefield,
these guys all tell me thatthere's an aspect of that that
you're not prepared for.
There's a psychological aspect.
(16:02):
You know your weapon, you knowhow to do things.
Now, all of a sudden, you'rethere and can you really do it?
There's a disconnect.
The only way to connect thatdisconnect is to actually be
there and do it.
So as a theologian and elder inthe church and somebody who
took theology and philosophy andapologetics very seriously, I
was very familiar with what thecorrect answers are.
(16:24):
We counted all joy when wefaced various trials.
Right, that's what James 1tells us.
1 Corinthians 4 and 5, 1Corinthians or 2 Corinthians.
Anyway, we know that this lifeis filled with trials and
sufferings, and the author, paul, or the Holy Spirit through the
pen of Paul, tells us thatthese trials and sufferings,
these momentary lightafflictions, are working
(16:46):
together for us An eternalweight of glory in life to come.
So we know these things right,we've studied them and we know
them, and we know that we needto trust in the Lord.
He will not let us down, he'sthere with us.
I will never leave you norforsake you.
But then, when we findourselves in the heat of it, do
we actually do what we knowwe're supposed to do?
Do we actually trust him and dowe actually cling to him?
(17:07):
Do we continue to love him,even love him all the more, or
do we shake our fists at him andcurse him and turn away from
him?
And suffering seems to havethat winnowing effect.
People tend to be drawingcloser to the Lord or they tend
to be driven away from him, andit kind of separates the wheat
from the chaff, don't you think?
Michelle (17:27):
It does.
And, as you're saying that, Ikind of laugh because I feel
like I say that every episode.
You know, when I'm talking to aguest, that we always talk about
how people either draw closerto God or they run away from God
when these challenges in ourlife come.
And you know all of that headknowledge.
(17:48):
We know who stay so strong intheir faith even having been
through all of it, because, as Isaid in the intro, it really is
testing your faith when youhave to live it out.
And you see and that's why Iwas asking you about the
emotions that you experiencewatching your loved ones in the
trenches, because it's so hard.
It's so hard, you know and Iexperienced the loss of my son
(18:09):
too to make sense of it in thenatural sense of our minds, and
that's what the atheists aretrying to say and they struggle
with to make sense of a God thatwould allow that.
But those scriptures speak tothat, those very scriptures that
you cited, and those are thethings that kind of in a
supernatural sense, I believe,bring us hope, because it
(18:31):
doesn't compute in the naturalsense, wouldn't you agree?
David (18:34):
Right, I would.
I would agree with strongly.
Yes for sure.
Yeah, you know all the headknowledge and all that.
The head knowledge is important.
We should never look down atthe head knowledge like it's a
bad thing.
Some people do, unfortunately.
But what does the headknowledge accomplish for you if,
when you're tested, you failthe test?
You know, if anything, you'reworse off for having had the
(18:56):
head knowledge.
You know to whom much is given,much is expected.
So people can have very littlehead knowledge and truly trust
in the Lord, and that'scommendable.
You can have a whole lot ofhead knowledge and reject him,
and that's damnable reject them,and that's damnable.
Michelle (19:16):
I was thinking about when you mentioned 1st or 2nd
Corinthians.
I was thinking about in 2ndCorinthians, chapter 1, where it
talks about that we're tocomfort others with the comfort
that we've received from God.
And so when we go through thesethings it's like you said, the
head knowledge is there and youuse the example of the soldier.
You know, in the trenches theyget the training first, so the
(19:37):
training equips them and thenthey draw on what they've
learned when they're in thebattle, and that's kind of the
perfect analogy of what God doeswhen we go through these things
in life.
So in 1 James, that scriptureyou cited about, you know, count
it all joy.
It makes absolutely no senseprior to real testing in our
(19:57):
lives, at least for me, and Iknow I've read from a few
pastors that have written booksabout the fact that they've lost
their own children, and I'mthinking of Rick Warren and Greg
Laurie.
You know they've lost their kidsand they've talked about the
fact that they used to counselothers who were grieving and
(20:17):
then they did this for a lengthof time, you know, with that
head knowledge, and then whenthey lost their own children it
took them to a new depth ofempathy and understanding when
they were communicating withpeople after that.
Because of that, and that'swhat God wants, that's how he's
equipping us and building us up.
So, yeah, I love the way thatyou said that.
(20:39):
I guess what I want to know nowfrom you is based on everything
you said.
How did all of it change foryou when you finally realized
the truth of that?
Because you said thatintersection of head knowledge
and life application?
When you finally realized thetruth of that, because you said
that intersection of headknowledge and life application,
when you got your brain aroundit, what changed, if anything,
(21:00):
for the way your life went Well?
David (21:02):
yeah, yeah, very good question.
I think the biggest change washaving peace in the midst of the
storm.
The storm was still raging, butearly on I just wanted to be
done with it all.
I wanted them to get well.
Obviously I wanted that allalong, but when it looked like
they weren't going to be wellanytime soon, it was very hard
(21:25):
to have any kind of peace.
But finally losing thatdisconnect that we talked about
before brings a peace thatsurpasses understanding.
Really we can have peace in themidst of the storm.
In fact, one of the chapters ofmy book is one of the later
chapters is called it's aprivilege to enter this world,
this other world of, you know,serious suffering, and it sounds
(21:48):
kind of cheap and easy to saythat, but I really mean it.
It's actually a privilegebecause it gives us
opportunities to glorify Godthat we wouldn't have otherwise.
It gives us opportunities toinvest in things that really
matter.
So when we come to realizethose things and come to really
trust in the Lord in the midstof it, it does change the
perspective radically, a radicalparadigm shift in the
(22:10):
perspective, and we do havepeace and we do have eternal
hope.
That really is tangible.
Michelle (22:17):
Yeah, the privilege part.
When you mentioned that, I wasthinking about our conversation
before and I think we talkedabout Job for a little bit.
You know, and I think aboutthat privilege because you know
he was selected and God gaveapproval for Satan to have his
way with him.
You know if he will, and Ialways think about that story in
(22:37):
terms of you know that for me,and the loss of a child, and I
think about how Job, you know,the house caved in and he lost
all his kids in one day and it'sjust, it's impossible for me to
even think about it at thatlevel all of your kids.
And then scripture talks aboutthe fact that in the latter part
of his life was better than thefirst.
(22:59):
You know, when it closes it allout and it's like how, how
could that be?
But it's basically what we'retalking about right now.
So how would you liken yourrealization of scripture and the
way that it comforted you?
How would you liken that to Joband what he went through?
David (23:16):
Well, I would say, how would I liken my experience to
Job's?
I would say that, first of all,I think he suffered more than I
did, but that's beside thepoint.
But I would say that he endedup with the realization that is
the same one that I ended upwith, and that is, you know, in
my book I try to give answers.
(23:38):
I start out answering ErnstHaeckel's teleological argument
and then from there I move on tothe problem of evil how does
evil fit into God's sovereignplan?
And then from there I move onto some answers to these tough
questions.
Why did God ordain this realityfilled with suffering?
In the first place and thereare good answers in scripture
(23:59):
God has ordained a reality wherethere's a fall into sin and
suffering, for his glory giveshim the opportunity to display
his glorious justice, mercy andgrace that he wouldn't have
otherwise.
Well, you can push back againstthat answer.
You know, couldn't he havegiven us the capacity to know
these things withoutexperiencing them?
And you know there are alwaysways to push back against these
answers.
You know, god's ordaining aworld with a fallout of sin,
(24:22):
filled with suffering and soforth, gives him the occasion to
display an amazing outpouringof love that wouldn't have been
possible in a different world.
I think we really can know hislove with a depth that we
wouldn't have otherwise, becausewe're, you know, wretched
sinners who are loved by Godrather than deserving servants,
(24:44):
if there had been no fall intosin we would deserve Eden, but
we don't deserve it, and he haslavished it upon us anyway.
But beyond that, more than that,the means that he used to give
us paradise in the end is a verycostly, painful atonement that
he did for us.
(25:04):
So he entered our suffering andhe suffered with us and he
suffered for us.
But anyway, that answer can bepushed back against as well.
Why couldn't he just give us acapacity to love him as much
without all the suffering?
And so, anyway, there arealways ways to kind of push back
against these very good answersuntil you get to the place
where Job was Finally.
(25:25):
Maybe I'm going to go back toJob here.
But Job, the answer that God'sword gives, that cannot be
pushed back against any further.
The end of the line answer ishe is God and I'm not.
You know, his ways are higherthan my ways, and that's where
Job ended up.
At the end of the book Jobwanted answers, and at the end
of the book of Job, god justtold him I'm God and you're not,
(25:46):
basically.
Michelle (25:48):
And we can trust him and we can love him, the way you
described it, going to a newlevel of relationship with God
through it, and you mentionedthat with Job.
And what is that scripturewhere in Job he actually said
basically I thought I knew you,but now I have seen your face.
David (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Michelle (26:07):
And I think it's that realization.
Yeah, now, because we rely onGod, we need him like air after
we go through something likethis.
So he's created a new intimacythat with him that we would have
never like this.
So he's created a new intimacywith him that we would have
never had otherwise, right.
Absolutely, absolutely yeah wellsaid Let me ask you then, in
summary, given everything thatyou've gone through, that your
(26:30):
family has gone through and thatyou've had to suffer kind of
supporting them what are thosebig life lessons that you
learned that you could sharewith someone listening right now
who might just be going througha really challenging time, to
give them hope?
David (26:46):
Yeah, okay, the biggest life lesson is and I just looked
it up a minute ago while wewere talking it is 2 Corinthians
, not 1 Corinthians, chapter 4,and on to chapter 5, where Paul
talks about his momentary, lightafflictions, storing up an
eternal weight of glory in thelife to come.
And if you read the list ofafflictions Paul endured,
(27:09):
they're anything but momentaryor light by human standards.
He suffered a lot and heconsidered them momentary and
light.
Well, why is that?
It's because he had his eyesfixed on the end goal.
He had an eternal perspective,yes, and he knew that eternity
is, you know.
(27:30):
Let me draw an analogy thatshows how immense eternity is.
It's an analogy I use in mybook.
My daughter Bethany and Iwatched a lot of nature
documentaries when she wasreally sick and one of them was
on the Sahara Desert.
I didn't realize this at thetime, but the Sahara Desert is
as large in land mass andacreage as the entire United
States of America.
It's absolutely enormous.
(27:50):
So if you imagine a little birdthat flies down once every
thousand years and plucks awayone grain of sand, in all of
world history it would haveplucked away less than a pinch.
The eons of time that it wouldtake to remove one little shot
glass full would boggle ourminds.
(28:10):
A spoonful of sand.
The time it would take toremove that spoonful of sand.
I don't think we have a numberthat big.
We don't have a name.
Have a number that big thatwe've?
We don't have a name for anumber that big yet.
So try to imagine that bird,one grain every thousand years,
removing all the sand of adesert the size of the United
States of America.
That's a good picture ofeternity, right?
Well, no, actually it's not,because once that last grain is
(28:32):
removed, eternity has only begunit.
It still goes on forever.
So, with that in mind, my advicefor people, my parting comments
to people who are sufferingfirst of all, trust in the Lord.
If you don't know the Lord, ifyou don't have a relationship
with the Lord Jesus Christ, youneed to.
You need to submit to hisauthority, turn to him in faith.
(28:55):
Whoever believes in him willnot perish but have everlasting
life.
And when you do that, remindyourself every day that you have
eternity to look forward to.
Revelation 21 tells us.
He will wipe away every tearfrom our eyes, so there will no
longer be pain or sorrow, youknow, think of the tenderness of
that verse.
By the way, it doesn't say yourtears will dry up or your tears
(29:19):
will no longer flow.
It says I will wipe away everytear from your eye.
So you know we have eternityafter that to look forward to,
without this pain and suffering.
So you know it's right to sayour afflictions here are
momentary and they're also lightcompared to the weight of glory
.
So not only do we have a very,very long time to be without
(29:41):
these sufferings and a veryshort time to be with them, we
also have a sharp discrepancybetween the quality of the
suffering.
Now you know the bad quality,the pain and the good quality of
the reward that awaits us inheaven.
And 2 Corinthians 5, I thinkit's verse 10, actually tells us
(30:04):
that the former is contributingto the latter.
So you know you'll haveeternity to look back at this
tiny, tiny little blip of timeand be thankful for it, because
it actually contributed to whatyou're experiencing for all of
eternity in heaven.
So keep that perspective inmind.
Every moment can be hard to getthrough, but there's a very,
(30:26):
very finite number of thosemoments.
And just hang on.
Trust in the Lord.
Michelle (30:33):
Yeah, I think that's key.
Those two things go hand inhand, don't they?
Because if you don't have thatfaith, it will seem like there's
no end in sight.
So when you have that faith,then you can have the hope.
So that is the message that wewant to convey.
So thank you for that.
I love that answer, David.
David (30:52):
Well, thank you.
Michelle (30:52):
Yeah, very good.
Well, david, at this point Ijust want to say thank you so
much for agreeing to be my gueston the show.
I appreciated meeting you andgetting to know you, and I want
my guests to know that I'll puta link in the show notes to the
Amazon site where, if they'dlike, they can buy a copy of A
Different World God'sSovereignty in the Face of
Suffering.
(31:13):
David, thanks so much.
David (31:15):
Well, I appreciate it too , Michelle, very, very much.
It's been a pleasure talkingwith you.
Michelle (31:21):
Good to know there are fellow soldiers out there.
So for those of you listening,if you're facing serious
challenges right now and youfind yourself wondering why a
loving God would allow suchsuffering in your life, I hope
you found some comfort inDavid's words.
He told us how difficult it wasto watch his wife and daughter
(31:41):
suffer, and yet he could donothing to stop it.
And he himself became seriouslyill, but continued to work and
pay bills and take care of hisfamily.
He had the head knowledge toknow that God allows suffering
in this imperfect world.
But, like you might be, knowthat God allows suffering in
this imperfect world.
But, like you might be, hestruggled to apply it in his
(32:02):
circumstances, but only for awhile.
Then he realized that he hadbeen trained in the Word and
practiced in the knowledge ofGod.
And when the battle came thereal-life test of faith he used
what he knew to be true tocombat the hard things that were
a reality in his life.
He used what he knew to be trueto combat the hard things that
were a reality in his life.
God told us that in this worldwe would have trouble, but to
(32:26):
take heart, for he has overcomethe world.
So remember what David saidabout our lives now in light of
eternity this life is shortcompared to what's ahead if we
acknowledge and turn to him.
Ahead if we acknowledge andturn to Him.
So my prayer is that you woulddo that today, my friend.
Knowing God won't take awayyour troubles, but knowing that
(32:49):
He'll walk beside you in themmakes all the difference in the
world.
Thanks for listening.
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