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(00:00):
Hey y'all, this podcast contains potentially disturbing content.
Our show includes graphic references to topics such as sexual abuse,
self-harm, violence, eating disorders, explicit language, and sexual acts.
Listener discretion is advised.
This show is for mature audiences only.
Good morning and slay, slay bitch, slay all day, because you're listening to the Queer LBC Podcast.

(00:27):
Podcast i'm nino local construction daddy and
podcast fatty my pronouns are he him thank you
for asking i have with me here my fabulous cohorts yo what's up this is christoph
here your city top liaison my pronouns are he him and that motherfucker dr mikey
here your professional cheese muscle tummy all your secrets my pronouns are

(00:47):
he she all of them so what do you got for us today, girl?
Oh, you know, just some. Quick tea and queer events. Quick tea and queer events.
Quick tea and queer events. Quick tea and queer events. Queer,
queer, queer. Take a sip.
Take a sip. You big stupid bitch. Alright. So this is the quick tea and the queer events.

(01:09):
This is where we get into the L, G, B, and the T of it all.
Sometimes we get a little Q, too. You know what I mean?
I know what you mean, girl. so what did the queens talk about today this week today this week.
Today in gay, Club Q Shooter, who killed five, charged with federal hate crimes.

(01:32):
Today in trans, gender-affirming care improves transgender lives,
according to the largest survey of trans people.
Also in trans, transgender activists staged die-in at Florida driver's license
offices across the state.
Today in homophobia, video show St.
Louis police handcuffing gay bar owner. Also in homophobia, Glendale,

(01:55):
city's queer Armenian community targeted by extremists.
Police, fire, and the liquor board raided two Seattle gay bars.
Today in transphobia, trans people in Florida blocked from changing gender on driver's licenses.
Also in transphobia, a new Georgia Women's Bill of Rights guts protections for

(02:18):
trans women and eliminates gender identity.
And last but not least beyonce discuss do any of you queens know by any of these things 16 carriages.
I thought the two beyonce songs were good i
was just complaining to my friend how much i hate country music

(02:40):
and then i turned into that meme
he's like oh right about country now you
need a cowboy hat now that picture that she
has with her little short bob and the cowboy hat is cute i'm like
i want to be you bitch well she was
hinting at did you see her at the grammys oh yeah when she hit but that outfit
was suspect like she didn't look good like it wasn't it wasn't for her the white

(03:07):
thing was probably a last minute outfit these people did a die-in that was fun
these transgender activists yeah so oops.
Oh, you want to read the article? You can if you want to. Okay.
You can pull it up. Sorry.
Not prepared. Yeah. So in Florida, trans activists did a die-in.

(03:28):
So all the offices or some offices in Florida where you go and get your driver's
license, trans activists went, wrapped themselves in trans flags or emergency safety vests.
And they went and they just did this die-in.
People just laid on the floor and they're protesting the new
band or the new law on florida that criminalizes

(03:50):
uh changing your gender under driver's
license whack ass bitches but
yeah that's cool i was i was excited
to see that these people were you know doing like
some real what do you call that disruption there
you go because i think that's like obviously us going

(04:11):
and trying trying to advocate for ourselves in the laws
or whether our representatives are not working so i
think protests really need to start disrupting
in order to get people's attention yeah right
i like that because i always hear like whenever you see like people protesting
and like like shutting down the freeways like i don't know why but all my coworkers

(04:34):
always get really angry at that and i'm like you're so stupid like we're fucking
doing something exactly i saw that.
When the protests shut down the freeways
for palestine and like people were commenting
and they're being like this is a great way to not get people on your
side and i'm just like y'all don't understand

(04:55):
the point of this right because if you ain't gonna cause no
shit then what's gonna make you come out and in support you're not talking about
it now because if you was talking about it then we wouldn't be here yeah and
it's like we're not gonna get you on your your side by being nice nice to you
bitch right when has that worked ever go fuck yeah but I think it's great they did this and I think,

(05:19):
people should definitely plan more like protests this this style yeah these
like out loud kind of like.
Meaningful things like a dying that's
cool yeah because and the the reality is is like if
you're not going to allow trans people to change the gender on their licenses
then you put them in danger because there's going to be like people who get

(05:39):
gender affirming care you know when they transition you know their their appearance
their expression is not going to match the the gender on their id and that's
dangerous and you're putting them at risk yeah exactly Exactly.
So it was a it's a great way to send a message.
See, so, yeah, because that's why they did that. Diane, Diane,
because Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles announced a

(06:03):
change in a memo late last week since a county tax collectors where state residents can get licenses,
Permitting an individual to alter his or her license to reflect an eternal sense
of gender role or identity,
which is neither immutable nor objectively verifiable,
undermines the purpose of an identification record and can frustrate the state's

(06:25):
ability to enforce its laws.
That's what Robert Kinoch stated, the department's deputy executive director in the memo.
The memo further says that someone misrepresenting
their gender meaning not using their sex assigned
at birth constitutes criminal and civil fraud sir
if you don't shut the fuck about how how criminal

(06:48):
how talking about new bathroom law
that you're gonna go to jail oh yeah and that and that's basically why they're
doing that because now they're saying that like basically we won't be able now
this will allow them to force enforce those laws and to affect and have police
officers and people who are going to I guess manage these ridiculous.

(07:11):
They said fucking something go fucking pee on the corner or some shit,
They said, who the fuck said that? I just read it.
They were saying that if you're confused about which bathroom to go into,
you can go pee on the street corner.
And then so you can arrest us for a loo. Right, exactly. Damn.
Come on, man. Like, that's fucking stupid, yo.

(07:31):
So, expended the department's authority to issue replacement licenses depending
on one's eternal sense of gender or sex identification is violated of the law
and does not serve to enhance the security and reliability of florida issued
licenses and identification cards i was like but y'all got so much else shit
to worry about in florida then,

(07:52):
this like right yeah don't you worry about your fucking flooding ass fucking,
trees swamp lands yeah but
like the the florida highway safety and
motor vehicles deputy executive director he said
this he said the term gender does not refer to
a person's internal sense of his or her gender role
or identification but historically and

(08:14):
commonly be understood as a synonym for sex
which is determined by innate and immutable biological and genetic characteristics
girl bye so they're he gets a defined gender like girl what are you talking
about yeah if you want to take it all the way back to when god made adam Adam and Eve.

(08:35):
Do you think sex was on their mind when they were given their, their.
Body part they're right you know like that's not that
that's dude like they don't even make no sense
yeah but even even what they're saying too they're trying to
like people always use this oh sex
and and they relate it to your.

(08:57):
Your chromosomes but like what.
They don't people understand is like okay x
x x y but like even that is
on a spectrum there are people who aren't x x x or
x y they're x x y or you know different
variations so like even your understanding
of that is false yeah because then it's kind

(09:18):
of like well then what if gender doesn't
mean gender anymore it's like well what is the thing that
gender used to mean what is what is
that should be called i don't know like it's still a
thing even if it's not gender right like i still have
have a gender regardless of if it's meaning
my sex or my gender see this

(09:40):
doesn't make sense like fucking words yeah right
exactly because even if he's saying like gender
only means sex only refers to your chromosomes it's like
well i still have the thing that's like i'm still acting femme over
here so what does that mean like so that
means i inalienably by god's
law i'm still acting mask right now

(10:02):
even though i'm femme by his rules because
gender can't be swapped i guess
yeah so no matter how gay i act i'm still masculine and manly yeah i mean that's
true regardless maybe he's being progressive yeah no but but i think yeah i

(10:24):
don't know like i just just to understand how this person gets to make that call.
And like, it's also based on not science. Like you're not acknowledging intersex people.
Thank you. Also true. I think it's kind of like, we should always.
Kind of fucking remind them that intersex people exist because it's
like they don't know they don't think they exist and

(10:46):
i tell my fucking co-workers this all the time i'm like whenever we
talk about the trans argument i'm like i always just bring up intersex people
i'm like you know intersex people exist right yeah and so what is their gender
yeah i was like so what do they have to pick if they have both you're gonna
tell me i'm like that's what the doctor does i guess is tell you which one you
have to pick the fuck people are i yeah people are either,

(11:09):
don't have minds is what it is that's also true
but do y'all remember back in what was that we were talking about when that
police car in st louis oh when they ran into the bar and then the owners was
upstairs came out and they end up arresting the owners yeah so now recently.

(11:30):
A video has surfaced that not only shows the moments after the st louis police
officer or crashes his SUV into a gay bar, but also appears to contradict the
officers who handcuffed one of the bar co-owners because he was causing a disturbance.
So the new footage taken by a bystander shows the events leading up to the co-owners,
James Pence and, let's see, that last name, being handcuffed by Officer Ramel

(11:56):
Wallace, who responded to the scene.
Chad Morris, the other bar co-owner, and
pence's husband was arrested later by
wallace who also is accused of beating morris while he
was in custody so a dash camera was not
installed in the vehicle that crashed and it's unclear how
many if any of the officers on scene had working body cameras recording the

(12:18):
incident said the attorney but in the two minutes so they they basically show
it and whatnot but after you they basically states this that like remember when
it first came out they was like oh like they was causing the seeing this and the other.
So this video actually breaks down.
What contradicts the police officer's comments and police report,

(12:41):
official police report.
So the St. Louis police changed the story three times about why the officers
crashed his SUV into the building.
The officers claimed that they swerved to avoid a dog. Right. Remember that.
But later said that they avoided hitting a parked car.
The department said the driving officer was adjusting the radio in the vehicle.
So there was already three lies or three statements that wasn't.

(13:03):
You're the fucking cops you already know how to not lie and
you're fucking so stupid but however the video shows
that the car not only ran a red light but also
traveled at a high rate of speed before swerving and crashing into
the building so you ain't no fucking dog for one
ain't no part of the car that you was trying to avoid you ran
a red light and you was going fucking at a high rate

(13:25):
of speed so Wallace the responding officer did not
ask the officer who crashed the police vehicle to take a breathalyzer
test said enough probability calls existed to
warrant that so when the police officers showed up
on scene he immediately just you know you
know the the code of brother's law and police work
i'm assuming go and talk to them handle go

(13:48):
get them but morris who was
inside the bar at the time of the crash also was asked by
wallace to show his id that felony
count so wait a short time later morris
was arrested and charged with felony assault on wallace and misdemeanor resist
resisting arrest that felony count was reduced
to a misdemeanor morris had a black eye and bruises

(14:09):
when he was released from jail he accused wallace of beating him while
in custody wallace has been accused of assaulting and
injuring another citizen in 2019 incident so these
actions have compounded an already strained relationship.
Between the st louis police department and the lgbtq community so
that alone should i
if if i was those bar owners i would sue the shit

(14:31):
out of that police department and then also be like y'all didn't breathalyze
that dude you know i'm saying like what what makes you think if he i'm quite
sure he wasn't on the chase because if he was on a chase it would have been
more cars on the chase right you know what i mean.
When this fucking story first dropped, I immediately knew it was bullshit.

(14:54):
And then I, fuck it, I'll be a conspiracy theorist. This is fucking related
to all the other fucking bar raids.
Hello, like, this happened. But he not only raided that motherfucker, he ran into it. Exactly.
So it makes me think that the fucking, there's something going on,
that the fucking cops are all like, we need to fucking get into these gay bars
for fucking some fucking reason. Leave us alone.
We're just having fun drinking. But does it not seem connected to you? Right.

(15:17):
Oh, yeah. Of course. All of it is freaking connected.
Like, what the fuck? Okay, doctor, go into your raid story.
Oh, yeah. So we have friends who live in Denver and they're DJs, the gay bars.
And around the same time the raids happened in Seattle, or actually maybe a

(15:38):
few days before the Seattle ones broke, they posted on Facebook and Instagram
that the bar they were DJing at got raided by the police.
And the police were focusing on, like, lewd conduct.
Conduct because apparently it's like against the law to like serve alcohol shirtless
or and have people shirtless what something like that huh yeah maybe in denver i guess yeah so,

(16:05):
that was the the reason why they decided to like raid it.
Because it was like an underwear night or something just looking
to bust gays yeah like sounds like old times so
was that the same reason that happened in seattle
well let's let's find out because i don't know
tune in live breaking

(16:26):
but but okay this while you do
that like come on like a cab like you
are giving so much power to police and this
is what what they're doing with it and even if these this
these bar owners decide to sue the police
that money they get is not coming out of the
police funding it's coming out of funding for the city exactly that discretionary

(16:49):
fund so you they're not learning anything yeah they're not losing yeah this
is article from the stranger.com from vivian mccall police fire and the liquor.
The Joint Enforcement Team, which is a coalition of Seattle Police,

(17:10):
Fire, and the State Liquor and Cannabis Board, and others, entered the Cuff
Complex and started looking around.
LCB officials entered the Seattle Eagle and did the same thing.
And what did they find? a bartender's exposed nipple and a few people wearing jockstraps.
Offenses that law enforcement can cite you for in Washington if you're also selling alcohol.

(17:35):
See, same reason.
So fucking stupid. Like, bitch, we've been in here naked.
Right. Yeah. But we're not even naked. See, but here's the problem that I have with that.
Because there's a lot of laws and things that you can be going to enforce.
You know what I'm saying? so it's like why choose this why is this on the forefront yeah why are you,

(18:01):
why are you wasting your time right yeah why
are you wasting this money like he's shirtless and
that's you're gonna like guys can
walk out in public with their shirts off like but
now that you're in a i mean i shut the fuck up
it's ridiculous yeah but i think i think like
even how this article started like police have never been

(18:24):
friends of to the queer community or
to any community to be honest because they're just upholding the system and
the structure like this is very pre stonewall like i don't know where's the
mafia to protect us this time but like this is i don't know i don't like this
this is kind of scary to like if this This keeps happening.

(18:47):
Like three different bars. Like what the fuck?
It says, so at 10.30 on Saturday morning, 10.30 at night, basically,
10 member JET crew filled into cuff, according to the owner, Joey Burgess.
They came in with flashlights, scaring some patrons who left in a hurry.
Inside, they saw the offending nipple, a violation of state law.

(19:12):
The JET may penalize in some way.
Saturday night, two LCB officials entered the Eagle at 11.30 p.m.
And inspected the premises.
Owner Keith Christensen said he's waiting on a call from them about the jockstraps
and a potential citation.
According to a JET agenda, officials hit neighbors on Friday and observed a

(19:35):
lewd conduct violation.
They hit the lumberyard on Saturday and registered no violations.
Of the 15 places enforcement inspected over
the weekend four were gay clubs two were hookah lounges and
one was a college bar one was a hot dog stand one
was a music venue and one was a dive bar another was
a bowling alley another was a bar and grill one was a roller

(19:55):
rink another was some weird lounge that has no internet presence what
the fuck what they said what is this article so washington
was just on their bullshit so they're hitting all these different bars
i guess so let's see
i don't know
that's still sus it's suspect as fuck i don't
like it created a jet to address nuanced businesses

(20:18):
and criminal activity in seattle but neither
cuff nor the eagle had ever been cited for alcohol or violence related offensives
in this case clothing was the sole issue an open letter both owners signed for
call signed calls for a thorough investigation into why the JET inspected two
gay bars in as many nights.

(20:40):
Both bars have been cited for similar reasons before. Christensen said that
LBC chased out 70% of his business over citations in February 2008.
Burgess has dealt with this problem since pride of 2022 when the LBC when the
CLB the CLB cited Cuff for a customer wearing a jockstrap.

(21:04):
How do you cite the bar for what the customer is wearing? Right.
Because they have the right to refuse anybody. And if I ain't gonna refuse them,
then I ain't gonna fucking refuse them. Yeah. The fuck?
That don't make no sense. since then cuff stayed staff have hall monitored fashion
choices banning jockstraps and asking patrons to pull up their pants to hide exposed cracks.

(21:28):
He said he's seen a decline in business because people assume cuff wants to
regulate their bodies despite signage he's put up explaining the pressure they're
facing from the state it's difficult conversation to have in late in the night
at night it's difficult conversation to have late night at a bar.
Let's see. On Tuesday, a spokesperson released a statement saying the agency

(21:49):
wanted to acknowledge the alarm and concern its enforcement actions caused,
but also to assure the LGBT community that it does not target their spaces.
The spokesperson added that the agency contacted letter signatories to clarify its actions and intent.
There is no emphasis on on patrolling activity at LGBTQ plus establishments

(22:10):
or any crackdown on lewd conduct violations. Okay.
Blatant lie. Read the statement. The actions of the weekend were a result of
routine work by LCB and other agencies.
It's not routine if it's not routine, bitch. I don't know what to tell you.
At a Tuesday caucus, LCB board chair David Postman disagreed with the use of

(22:34):
the term raid, But he could understand how J.E.T.'s entrance to Cuff looked,
considering the history of law enforcement busts on queer bars and the LCB doling
out citations at the Eagle years before.
He called the photographs taken as evidence as unfortunate.
Of course it's unfortunate for you, you dumb bitch. Unfortunate that you look like a dumb jackass.

(22:56):
The seattle police department said someone filed a complaint about the station
the situation with the office of police accountability so they can't comment
while it's under under investigation,
so somebody called on every single gay bar i was like anyways yeah i don't know,
but i was like i'm quite sure they should be focusing on a whole lot of other shit,

(23:21):
I'm quite sure they probably a lot of underage drinking and selling of liquor
to minors in Seattle deal with your fucking heroin situation.
Goddamn anyways sorry gays
we're under attack always will
be unfortunately i mean i

(23:42):
guess as long as you don't have your your titties out
you should be fine yeah so just let's in keep your
butts in and your titties in but i mean that's the
whole thing is like i know like as customers of
gay bars the only people that i ever see naked
are the entertainment folks that have been like like yeah so it's like what

(24:04):
the fuck yeah i mean that's true i mean i've been to bars like if somebody is
naked like most management and stuff is like ah you look because you can they
could fuck up your liquor license exactly i've been kicked out of a club for sucking someone's dick.
They take care of it like what the fuck yeah yeah
but i think it's just interesting that this is a law at all

(24:26):
right and it obviously it's connected to kind of stonewall
days so pre-stonewall they would get you
for same-sex like there was
a law against like being with other men right you know
so once they couldn't do that anymore how are
they controlling the gay community this way and they know it's part of the culture
so they're going to still find a way to try to regulate us and then it's kind

(24:51):
of like like the one guy said that his business had gone down it's like well
that's another tactic yeah so you're just putting us out of business exactly
because Because motherfuckers are like, I don't feel safe.
Why am I not going to go there if I can get arrested or raided?
Exactly. These are safe places.
Right. So we got the straights and the Abbey taking over. They can have it. Take Abbey. I'm good.
And then we got these other fucking bars getting raided. Right.

(25:13):
The straights are just getting out of pocket. Getting out of hand.
Did y'all hear about the club Q shooter?
Yes. And he got charged with five federal hate crimes. Stupid bitch.
So I think they want to give them, well, them, because they're non-binary.

(25:38):
But there's concern around that because people are saying that they didn't identify
as non-binary before the shooting, but now they are after the shooting.
So I don't know. But their pronouns are they, them. And they're going to give
him multiple life sentences.
Let's see so we got he pled guilty to 50 hate crime counts and 24 firearm violations.

(26:05):
You get multiple life sentences in addition to a 190-year sentence under the proposed agreement.
I'm like, that's not fair. What? Him getting to live.
I mean... But I mean, a murder-suicide wouldn't have suited it either. Right.

(26:26):
Unfortunately. Yeah, so that happened too.
Aldrich was sentenced to life in prison in June after pleading guilty to state
counts of murder and 46 counts of attempted murder, one for each person at Club
Q during the attack on November 19th, 2022.
The victims killed in the Club Q attack were Raymond Green Vance,

(26:50):
22, Daniel Daniel Aston, 28, Ashley Pegg, 35, Derek Rump, 38, and Kelly Loving, 40.
Aldrich was moved to the Wyoming State Penitentiary last year due to concerns
about their safety in Colorado's prison system. Who's concerned?

(27:12):
Who is so concerned with your safety? They are.
I probably requested a change. Aldridge identifies as non-binary,
but prosecutors have expressed skepticism about that.
El Paso County District Attorney Michael Allen, District Attorney,
said he believed Aldridge claimed the identity to avoid being charged with hate
crimes under the Colorado law.

(27:35):
Aldridge didn't identify as non-binary before the club shooting, Allen said.
I mean you're still
not gay and you killed a bunch of gay people doesn't
mean you're not a homophobe right yeah i don't think
i think even if you identify in the community that's just
still a hate crime right like i think it's what your intent under it and and

(28:00):
they were probably fueled by all the transphobia and homophobia out there i
mean fucking caitlin jenner still transphobic as fuck we can all agree on that
right yes so i'm sure we could charge caitlin jenner with a crime.
Hey sigh,

(28:24):
um oh did y'all see the latest
survey that says gender affirming care improves transgender lives
i didn't but i believe it right right it only makes sense so this the survey
let's see where was it so 92 329 individuals were surveyed it's like the biggest,

(28:52):
sample yeah it sounded like a huge number it's a huge sample of trans people
the largest one they've gotten so it's like probably the most accurate so 94
of the respondents who lived,
94 respondents who lived at least some of the time in a gender other than the
one they were assigned at birth reported that they were either a lot more satisfied

(29:14):
at 79% or a little more satisfied at 15% with their life than before their transition.
Nearly all of those who were undergoing hormone treatment or had received at
least one gender-affirming surgery said this health care had improved their lives. Mm-hmm.

(29:36):
I believe it. Mm-hmm. I'm just tripping out right now on the words gender assigned at birth. Mm-hmm.
We assign you. This is your mission.
Whether you want to or not, you are man.
You are woman. Then I see the intersex lips and balls at the same time, and I say,

(30:02):
that's where the the word assign really comes
in where it's like now i'm assigning you this
gender yeah i have decided right not
me not my body so it's so it's like if you are intersex and it's saying that
your sex defined at birth your gender is defined by your sex at birth if you

(30:22):
are intersex then what does that mean for your gender then there has to be a
third gender well now there is but But back in the day, no.
Like, it was common practice for doctors to just do a surgery and then,
like, basically pick a site. Yeah.
That's so creepy. That's so, like, I don't know what.

(30:44):
Yeah. So there's a lot of stories of, like, intersex people who that happened
to and then they didn't, like, resonate with them. That wasn't how they identified. Right.
That fucking sucks. Yeah. Yeah, but I think like Republicans need to listen
to this report because like you're essentially like harming your constituents.
You're killing your constituents and you're just blocking them from enjoying life.

(31:08):
Yeah. Stupid poor bitch.
Morally bankrupt bastards.
But did y'all hear about Glendale? Glendale has a great queer Armenian community,
but they are afraid for, you know, their lives.
Because I know last year they had a lot of extremists come after them.
But it says that their friends are bracing Glendale,

(31:30):
the queer Armenian community in Glendale and their friends are bracing for another
onslaught of anti-LGBTQ plus smear tactics and misinformation campaigns ahead
of the Glendale school board election and the March 5, the March failed primary.
Glendale community members, including teachers, student parents and elected
officials, held a rally on the steps of Glendale City Hall Thursday to confront

(31:53):
the rise in extremists and hate groups in the city.
I didn't really well I guess Glendale is kind of conservative yeah but also kind of like yeah.
What I don't want to say like almost like it can give a vibe of like,

(32:13):
In certain areas, like redneck-ish vibes. In Glendale? Yeah.
Oh. In certain areas, in certain pockets.
Yeah. And they were spending enough time in Glendale.
So violence erupted in June outside last year of the school board.
Oh, I remember that. Yeah. So many agitators wore matching white t-shirts with

(32:33):
the slogan, leave our kids alone and trucks with giant leave our kid alone banners,
circle the neighborhood.
A few days before talking to the Glendale School District, many of the same
extremists was in North Hollywood at an elementary school during both protests.
Eric Edman, executive director of GALIS, the LGBTQ plus Armenian society.

(32:54):
Told The Guardian that white ring activists who had been prominent at previous
pro-Trump and anti-vaccine rallies across the region,
people with documented connections to the Proud Boys and January 6th were in attendance.
So it's like glendale community
members including teachers students parents and elected officials are

(33:15):
like look can we get some support
can we get some we're with our safety
is at risk so organizers warn
the hate groups and their candidates what to
erase any mention of lgbtq plus
and gender identity from books oh and materials in glendale
schools and force the the lgbtq plus back into

(33:38):
the closet so jordan henry and anita caprican sorry if i butchered that two
ultra-right conservatives and darlings of extremist activists are candidates
for open seats on the glendale school board so this is why it's important to
vote and then also but like.
If they are a part of this and

(34:01):
then they're trying to get on the board do you just know how much fear and
like things that these the community is
going to feel in these schools and glendale dang
vote local y'all that's also
right it matters it matters damn glendale get your shit together you're in california

(34:22):
right the fuck right like you right outside of like yeah I mean we're not that
fucking fucking blue there's a lot of fucking dumb fucking bitches out there,
but yeah anyone Glendale go vote go vote go vote blue or something I don't know vote first someone,

(34:49):
any other quick tease nah oh girl I don't think so So I think we then drank all of it.
Bodies on bodies on bodies on bodies. All right. Is it time for a break?
Break time. We shall be right back.
Hey, y'all. Christoph here. And we at the Queer LBC just want to say thank you

(35:13):
again for all your love and support.
But we also wanted to let you know that you can hit that like button, boo.
But we really really really
do appreciate a five-star review on
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(35:35):
shit tell a friend about us get the word out you know we your favorite lgbtq plus podcast in lbc baby.
Oh yeah one last thing if any of you listeners have a topic or idea you want
to hear us talk about or have questions for moi dr mikey feel free to slide

(35:57):
into our dms on instagram at queer lbc or email us at queer lbc at gmail.com
we want to hear from you speak up y'all,
and we're back so today i
wanted to introduce to you our very special guest today we
have in the studio with us rami well identify

(36:19):
yourself queen please tell us about yourself my name
is rami i am a southern california
native and i currently teach
at cal state long beach in the theater arts
arts department i teach classes around theater and
social justice very cool very cool
lbc nato lbc native that's me

(36:41):
thank you for bringing me back to my birthplace of course
of course so excited to have someone like you with us today thank you very much
i feel like we never get to hear from the queer muslim perspective so can you
just tell us everything but really how do you How do you?

(37:02):
How do I be myself? How do you be yourself? Well, I guess it's an ever...
Changing process. It's never unfolding process, I guess is what I want to say.
Now that I'm in my 40s, I would say I'm a much more realized version of myself,
more whole than ever, less fragmented.

(37:27):
I think it's taken my entire adult life to feel I feel reconciled in who I am.
My spirituality, like my identity as a Muslim, my belief in God,
my faith in God is very important to me.
I do think that for there were several years, like in my 20s,

(37:48):
for example, in which I ran away from that.
And I ignored my faith or pretended it didn't exist or kind of like forgot about
my faith conveniently sort of as a way of protecting myself or- I put it on the back burner.

(38:08):
Put it on the back burner. Like, you know, this seems to be like a heavy load
to carry. So let's just like not have to deal with it for a while.
And I think that served me at the time. but I will
say I think at around 30 or just
as I was getting older I started to feel
spiritually depleted because I grew up Muslim and I grew up having a connection

(38:31):
to like my creator you know even from a young child that was like a lifeline
I guess for me a spiritually a spiritual lifeline So I think for,
I like missed it.
I missed having something I can, that can anchor me.
So I spent, I would say like the next decade of my life, say like my entire

(38:57):
thirties, you know, trying to come back to God.
God I just I will say that I it's it wasn't until I got to meet other queer
Muslims who were also practicing that I even realized it was possible so I went
on a queer Muslim retreat in like.

(39:18):
2014 I guess about 10 years ago and I had met so many other queer Muslims and
up until then I I really didn't know any.
And so I think that felt like I had permission to practice in community.
And I, cause it's very important to be in community as well. Yeah. As a Muslim.

(39:39):
One second. Rewind. Where did you find this group? This was out of, uh,
east coast there's a there's an organization called
the muslim alliance of sexual and gender
diversity masgd and they
put on a retreat a spiritually spiritual retreat every year and then it became

(40:02):
every other year and i actually don't know if it's even happening anymore i
think the pandemic probably interrupted a lot of that but it was something that
they were doing yearly at some like retreat center on the East Coast.
And I had heard about it and people were telling me to like,
oh, you should try this. You should check it out.
And I was nervous. I think a lot of people get nervous when you think you're

(40:26):
sort of alone and you're used to kind of holding onto these identities by yourself.
I think it can be a little nerve wracking to meet other people.
But I did. And like, I think there were over a hundred people there.
Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean, and like, it's crazy even to say, oh,
wow, to think that, oh, my gosh, there are 100.
Right. Okay, right. Probably thousands.

(40:48):
It's probably thousands, but you guys had the courage to make that step.
Yeah, to just like be at some sort of retreat together and different like sessions as with any retreat.
Like the program is full of different things to talk about or different practices,
different rituals. and people sort of, you know.

(41:11):
Go where they fit in one of i think the like i
think one of the kind of like principles that underscored that
retreat was like a quote from you arumi which
is like come come whoever you are even
if you have refused to come a thousand times you know come oh so it's like it's
a way of saying like if you have any relation to islam or any any part of you

(41:36):
like feels called to explore your faith as a Muslim, you know, come to this retreat.
I think the goal is to, for people to achieve reconciliation,
you know, because faith and God and creator,
if those are things you subscribe to, it's so much greater than like this physical world.

(42:02):
And so like your sexuality or like Like, your body, it's so much smaller than God.
So, I think that's what helps people kind of, like, reconcile.
Like, if they start to see that they were created as intended,
as, like, God gave us this experience for a reason.
And it's a beautiful experience, actually, if you lean into it.

(42:24):
That there should actually be no fragment between your spirituality and yourself,
if anything. That should be probably the clearest thing.
You know, and anything, any struggles in this world are meant for you to work through.
You know, I don't know if I'm making sense. No.

(42:44):
I'm here. Basically, like, there's more to it than just our little squabbles we have here.
Yeah. Yeah. And our ability to like, like, like homosexuality,
if you talk about it like that, it's such a.
It's really, it's minuscule. Yeah, it's like such a small thing of our identities,

(43:07):
of our experience, of who we are, that to think that that little part of ourselves
could be some reason to not be with God or to not,
you know, see the miracles all around you or see how you've been blessed.
I think to sort of use that as a reason to not it's it's not really taking in

(43:30):
the full like majesty or power or generosity or compassion or mercy that is god actually.
Which is all of those i don't
know if if the three of you are spiritual or
people of faith i'm spiritual i i'm spiritual like
i told them in the past like i do believe of higher

(43:50):
beings like i believe we are put on this place for
a particular reason now i don't practice per
se but i also believe i'm a believer and
one thing i have always told them like i i show
knowledge to all the gods so i i
want the universe and the gods to watch over me

(44:11):
and guide me so yes to answer
your question i don't know about these heathens yeah
i don't follow
any organized religion i think just through my experiences with christianity
just really left a bad taste in my mouth for organized religion in terms of
like what i believe in and definitely believe in like a higher power but i wouldn't say it's like.

(44:41):
God like you know other like religions may say like i don't know i just believe
in like this universal like connection and energy it's very like woo-woo type
of perspective that i have woo-woo yeah i feel like i'm kind of the same like
i was brought up in christianity but.
Essentially like i pushed away from it

(45:02):
or i pushed it pushed me away from it and then
i pushed away from it and then now i'm
like anti but as far
as but i always say this it's like do i believe in god maybe probably
but is jesus christ my lord and savior no probably
not and i always say that because it's such a
christian nation that we live in that

(45:23):
i have to kind of state that to people because it's
like they want to start the conversation as
if you believe in the christian god already and it's
kind of like sis i have to tell you how it is now and i
don't want to be the rude one but no i
mean as far as every other religion goes it's like i'm cool with it and whatever
but yeah and that's another thing i wanted to talk to you about was that when

(45:47):
you grew up in the religion where people in the religion did you get any negative
like at like like anti-gay shit?
Well, I wasn't out when I grew up.
But did you still like receive those messages in the community for sure?
Like what was that experience for you?
I mean, I think it's not unlike, you know, people who grew up in Christianity.

(46:10):
It's pretty much a lot of the same messaging, which is like hate the sin, not the sinner.
And, you know, like these are, these feelings might be natural,
but you can't really pursue like there should be no action there's no it's the
behavior that's sinful it's you may have an attraction for someone who is of

(46:33):
the same sex but you're not supposed to like pursue that you know those are
some of the teachings recognizing that.
Sexuality is a thing and that desire is a
thing and you know really trying to repress
it push it down you know i actually
used to tell my friends that i

(46:55):
could get away with being in the closet because my
communities my muslim communities and
family was so conservative that even if i was straight
there's no way i could have had a girlfriend you know so
like there wasn't really that even yeah like there's no
no muslim that i grew up with had boyfriends and girlfriends you know like they're

(47:17):
really that's was pretty much pushed aside you know in some really conservative
communities you know genders are separated right you know like men and women
are not often in the in the same room.
So I think it's really easy to fly under the radar as queer in those spaces.

(47:39):
But at the same time, you're definitely not encouraged to be queer,
it's definitely not. Oh yeah. They'd be repressing them straights too, I see.
So for you, how was that process of reconnecting with your spirituality,
with your religion again.
Well knowing and growing up with kind of like the

(48:01):
anti-gay rhetoric because like that pushed me and nino
away from religion but like it how did you navigate that
well i think i mean if i could say like i
relate to what you are saying and i've had
that experience as well where right after
i came out and i came out pretty publicly i mean
this is a story that i have told a million times again well

(48:23):
i mean on other podcasts too but like
i came out in the la times oh
and that's how like my family read about
it on that oh see that's how my community in general all the muslims i knew
that they read it in the los angeles times that's because i was appearing in
a play in which there was a gay muslim character and i was playing the character

(48:44):
so i outed myself to the interviewer but but it's out there.
I mean, 2005, it was actually like 19, almost 19 years ago.
So, and I was in my 20s at the time.
So I got such a backlash and that is what contributed to me,
like putting the faith away, not wanting to practice for years.

(49:08):
Feeling like God doesn't care about me.
Like if God is teach, if the teachings of God are telling you that I don't,
that I'm not okay, then I don't want to have to, I don't want any relationship with this God.
I mean, sort of like kind of what I'm hearing the two of you say,
which is that the people, the anti-gay rhetoric, they sort of turned me off to the religion.

(49:34):
But like I said at the beginning of this, after a few years,
by the end of my twenties, maybe five or six years after this coming out happened,
I felt so spiritually depleted, and I actually felt like the Muslims stole my faith from me, you know?
And it really isn't—when you think about.

(49:55):
Maybe Christianity is a little specific when it's about Jesus.
And forgive me, I sound like an ignorant person. I'm not a Christian.
But it's like, in Islam, really all that matters is your connection to your creator.
Like, you're encouraged to pray five times a day when you fast for Ramadan.
It really is all about establishing a close connection to your creator.

(50:17):
That has nothing to do with your sexuality.
It really has nothing to do with that. It really
is about being able to show gratitude and reverence and submission to what has
given you life and what has made
you safe and what has given you all the blessings that you have received.

(50:41):
You know, the ability to like have friends or have your parents or whatever,
the ability to eat and clothe yourself, all of these are considered blessings
from like God, and none of that has anything to do with your sexuality.
So, for people to use your sexuality as a reason for God to have an issue with you,

(51:07):
that actually doesn't really compute because,
like, I have a relationship with God, you know, that has nothing to do with my sexuality.
Like, I don't know why people push that so much. I think as soon as you start
to realize that faith is different than religion and that your faith is not...

(51:32):
Is not dictated by other people and what they say. Like, the people kind of ruin the religion.
But faith in God, that's your own thing.
So, I'm actually very pro not being part of an organized religion.
I do encourage people to tap into their own spirituality and what their connection

(51:54):
is to source, whether it's connect, you called it connection, higher power, energy.
Energy there are so many different words yeah that
are all maybe referring to the same thing yeah you
mentioned earlier and i wanted to just ask you this
it may sound weird but it's so you say that you felt spiritually depleted how

(52:17):
did that make like were you did it lead into like like depression like did it
make you feel like you was just missing something or like that if,
Because I asked this because I felt like before I came out, I wasn't also like
into the religion or the faith that I was raised in.

(52:41):
But I also felt myself being different in the sense of like I was being more angry.
I was just like being an asshole for no reason.
And it wasn't like me because also with like with that faith being said,
I wasn't supposed to act that way.
Yeah. You know, you know what I'm saying? So like, how did that look for you
when you were in that stage?

(53:02):
I think also like I was angry. I think I was getting into like really toxic relationships.
I...
Was looking for other outlets, whether it was like drugs or hookup sex.
I just found myself being really agitated and seeking some sort of relief, some sort of comfort.

(53:31):
And at least to me, I think I was wired that that relief and comfort came from my faith.
And without the faith there anymore i
had no idea where to turn you know and
i think i would like get myself into relationships or
like you know i moved in i had someone move
into my place you know just within a few weeks of knowing them and i think that

(53:53):
that was like for in hindsight i feel like that was like me wanting comfort
in my space you know because i didn't feel comfortable at home and so i wanted
I wanted someone to like move in and,
but like that was the wrong person, you know, you don't buy like, and so it was around,

(54:14):
it was like after that experience that I started to realize that something was
missing and that it was that faith, that the part of me that used to be Muslim, you know.
Okay, that's nice.
I feel I resonate with that. So, you know.

(54:35):
And I also wanted to just touch on one quick thing too, because I know,
so when you came out, it was in 2005, when you was in LA Times.
And so then nine years later, that's when you went on that retreat for with
the 100 queer Muslims for that.
Do you keep in contact with any of those individuals that you met during that

(54:59):
retreat? I do, yeah, a few of them.
I didn't connect too many of them, to be honest. Because it was kind of like.
A hundred people is A a lot. Right. And I think I walked away with maybe three or four connections.
And I am in general touch with them.
None of them live in California. Oh, okay. So, like, we are in touch.

(55:20):
We might, you know, if we're in each other's cities, we'll meet for like a meal
or something. Okay, nice.
But I will say, like, it's interesting that you track it as nine years.
I really do feel like now that I've been out for a good 19 years,
I do feel like a decade I spent all by myself in that identity.
And then the last decade I wasn't able to actually have queer Muslim community,

(55:42):
which was unfathomable those first nine years. Yeah.
You know, so like community helps, like maybe that contradicts what I just said
in the sense that people kind of ruin the religion. The religion.
Right. But I do think that again, Again, you don't need other people to practice
your faith, but I think other people can be a reminder.

(56:06):
Just like I didn't know I could actually practice my faith until I met other queer Muslims.
So it's like you almost need each other.
Muslims need each other to remind each other of God's beauty and love.
It's actually part of the faith, too, is to remind each other.

(56:27):
It's like one of our tasks is to remind each other of, you know,
the blessings and keep each other humble and keep each other grateful. That's beautiful.
So that community that you was a part of in regards when you went all that, have you found...
Cause I'm, was those individuals from across America or like,

(56:48):
was they just from the East coast or?
Yeah, they were all over the place. Some were even from like other countries. Oh, okay.
But if your question is, have I found like community here in LA or California
over the years, I have tried to create that community.
Like I've hosted queer, like gatherings at my home and there used to be like

(57:11):
a queer Muslim support group at the Gay and Lesbian Center that I used to co-facilitate.
All of this stuff was like pre-pandemic.
And I will also say like, it never really like took off.
There was always so much drama for lack of a better word. Like,
no, I mean, that is the best word.

(57:32):
And I think like, Like, it's actually a very sad,
it's sort of evidence that our communities, our queer communities,
queer Muslim communities, we've been so traumatized in our families and in our
home countries, for those who are maybe not American.
Not that this country is not traumatizing as well.

(57:55):
Well but i think people come into
the space from a place of trauma and wanting
answers like wanting people to
heal their pain and i think it actually creates
a lot of tension and a lot of policing each other and having a guard up and

(58:15):
everything having their guard up it's like it's like a lack of love and more
like anger like i felt like there's a lot of anger and fear in these spaces
and not enough like love and support.
But I'll say that like I kind of pulled back and kind of got tired of trying
to facilitate these spaces because I just felt.

(58:38):
It wasn't working. And I just learned to invest in like sort of my more one-on-one
queer Muslim friendships, which I have.
But I wouldn't say that I'm in community, you know.
Now, is there a community in LA of gay Muslims?

(58:58):
I mean, if there, like, I would say it's like maybe a literary queer Muslim
community or maybe there's like a party queer Muslim community.
I think they're sort of segmented based on interest.
It's kind of hard because community is like an abstract thought.
It's kind of like, well, what does it mean, period, right? Like gay people together, I guess.

(59:20):
It's just kind of like, yeah, and if there's drama, I feel like I would be the
same person who would go to one of these groups assuming it would heal me.
Because I would go there being like, I'm the only one who knows my experience.
Let me go and be with my people.
And then I would just want to trauma dump everything. thing and then
that's definitely how those

(59:40):
spaces work yeah it was a lot of trauma dumping and a lot of triggering each
other and a lot of like being people having their guard up and then also people
like projecting all their pain you know possible misloved connections.

(01:00:01):
I mean, talking about love connections,
it's like, I've never, I don't know if never is the right word,
but like, you never really see a queer Muslim with another queer Muslim,
you know, it's like a queer Muslim is often dating like a white person or someone
outside of the community, you know?
And it's like, I think there is like too much internalized, um.

(01:00:24):
Phobia maybe you know it's internalized this
islamophobia to like be in
partnership with another another muslim would you
ever feel have you ever felt that way like i would want to like maybe steer
clear of another muslim guy because of xyz or i've never felt like oh i wouldn't
want another muslim if anything i've often told myself how nice it would be

(01:00:48):
to like because my faith is is so important to me.
I will say, I don't wanna, these were queer Muslim community spaces,
but I would say not too many were practicing. Practicing, oh, okay.
So like there weren't so many of them in which their faith or their connection
to God was maybe a leading part of their identity.

(01:01:08):
If anything, they were probably raised Muslim, maybe in another,
in a Muslim country, and they're too angry and traumatized to wanna be a practicing
Muslim, But it is still sort of part of their identity.
So they would come to these spaces and not be practicing.
And I think that would bring in a sort of guarding, a level of being guarded

(01:01:30):
as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:02:01):
Is in a place of gratitude for the life that they live.
Thankfully, my current partner is all that. And that's like,
but it's the first person I dated who in like my entire adult life.
You know, was someone who had like,
Congratulations. The spiritual practice. So thank you. And that was like,
became very clear from like day one that that was a connection.

(01:02:22):
Connection that you guys had together.
You need someone who understands. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.
But you think that was important to them too, to find someone who was also practicing. I know that's right.
Now here's a question. Have you found that the gay community is like not into
Muslims or are they phobic? Are they?

(01:02:44):
Yes. yes yes very much and again
when you like you said when you say community that's kind of
an abstract term it really depends on spaces
like you know back when i
was like on hookup apps you would see a lot
of islamophobia you know like uh people fetishizing you and you know can you

(01:03:06):
like wear your headdress and what the fuck you know like or yeah like can do
you mind wearing like like a traditional outfit during our hookup or something like that.
I mean, I got that a lot. How do you feel when, when people would say that?
I mean, it's you're like, hell yeah.

(01:03:29):
I guess it depends on how hot that.
No, it's definitely is off putting or people who are like, Oh,
where are you from? And I'd be like, Oh, my family's from Egypt.
And it's like, Oh, oh, I could never visit there. That's too,
they're too, they hate gays too much or they're too homophobic.
And, you know, maybe there are countries like Egypt who definitely are not supportive of gays.

(01:03:58):
But I do think that there's something kind of close-minded about like,
you know, refusing to even tell someone who's from their country. From their, right.
Yeah. I would never visit your country. Because first of all,
I didn't even ask you to fucking,
motherfuckers but also i think
it's like gay travelers should feel

(01:04:21):
like they could go everywhere in the world but you know like i
think a lot of countries are not super yeah
oh yeah that should not keep that should not
keep queer people from staying what in the u.s or in western Western Europe
to like make everything sort of Eurocentric and then turn your nose up to the

(01:04:42):
rest of the world where people of color are and to just sort of label them all as like homophobic,
I think is xenophobic, is xenophobic on your own.
So yeah, we got Florida fucking here, right?
America's homophobic as fuck. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask you. about that,

(01:05:07):
Anything from you, sir? I know your family from Egypt. Can you tell us a little
bit about Egypt? I know you came from a trip recently, too.
Yeah, I was in Egypt in December around Christmastime.
It was the first time I was in Egypt in my adult life during Christmastime,
and I was kind of taken aback by how Christmassy it was because it's like a 90% Muslim country.

(01:05:30):
There are Christians in Egypt, but it was definitely
like overly commodified and christmas trees
yeah totally like christmas trees and christmas
lights and america just could taste shit on every
time but when they do it over there dude it's not like it's not like a christian
festival right it's just kind of like christian it's just like holiday decor

(01:05:53):
it definitely just feels very culturally like a reach almost like like a way to appeal to tourists.
Oh, okay. For the people who were like, oh, let's go travel to Egypt for Christmas.
Well, tourism definitely is down and Egypt does rely on tourism.
So I did sort of see like a mass appeal to like the tourist and using Christmas

(01:06:17):
like decor as a way of doing that. Which I thought was strange.
I have not spent a lot of time in Egypt. I was born here in Long Beach.
My parents did immigrate from Egypt here to
los angeles i've been i go maybe
every five years last time was
2019 i don't feel i think whenever i go i'm like seeking some sort of profound

(01:06:44):
spiritual connection to like my ancestors okay you know like i've actually never
met any of my grandparents they all passed before I was born.
So like, I don't have this connection to any generation above my parents.
And every time I go to Egypt, I'm trying to like connect to some memory that really doesn't exist.

(01:07:09):
And I always am a little sort of disappointed or there's always a sense of melancholy
of like, oh, I didn't find what I was looking for. Yeah.
You know, and I think that happened again, this like past time,
you know, seeking some sort of,
yeah, wanting to know where I come from a little bit more. Right. Yeah.

(01:07:31):
It's fun to romanticize.
But it's, yeah, I guess like, if you want to have a vision.
Well, it's like, you know, you see other people who have grandmothers and what
their connection to their grandmother has meant. And I've never had that.
I've never met a grandma, so I think I'm seeking that grandmother energy.

(01:07:55):
Yeah. And I don't have that. I never had it. Damn.
Maybe you just need to meditate more. Yeah.
That's true.
How do you like to how do you navigate through the gay scene as a muslim she's

(01:08:15):
booed up now i mean okay before well you know before you was you know before you get caught.
It's kind of hard to even think about because i do
think it was just like the hookup
lifestyle like the gay scene is on the apps you

(01:08:36):
know like i'm not really i was not the type that
was going to bars like west hollywood or
whatever oh you know i never really had
like gay community around me
you know like i've always all my
best friends have always been like my straight female friends so
i never had like a queer posse to go out

(01:08:57):
with so i just don't think i was able to really
participate in a gay scene a possible like
just not really feeling male maybe in that way you know like maybe like having
a group of gay boys around me never felt it never naturally happened and i think

(01:09:17):
it's because you know maybe like i don't necessarily see myself as like a gay
male you You know, it's like,
I'm currently like for a few years now,
it's like really sort of expanding how I see myself gender wise,
recognizing that I've always been more vibrationally connected to my female
friends than to like other male, male bodied people.

(01:09:41):
And just recognizing that throughout my adult life, a gay male community has
always sort of been elusive to me.
Okay. and so i just
was not able to navigate i just don't think there was much
to navigate yeah right you know and
so like my outlet in terms of seeking

(01:10:04):
connections with other men was yeah just
through like hookup apps and oh okay yeah because
i just feel like i don't know i almost feel like
the whole idea of like a gay youth is like not
even true like you know what i mean because like i I talk to like straight people
and they're like – the way they talk to me is almost as if they think that I

(01:10:25):
grew up in a gay world full of gay people and I'm like – for the first time
I'm interacting with straight people when I meet them. And it's like what the fuck?
Like do you really think that's how it works? So it's like – and then people talk about like the –.
Lgbtq plus community and i think that just sets like a false idea that there's
some kind of a community but it's like when they refer to the lgbtq plus community

(01:10:49):
it just means like all the gay people that are over there wherever they are
but there's no like real like,
quilted fabric where we're all like friends in
a in a city talking to each other like
farming mean you know what i mean like it's not like that it's
it doesn't exist or does

(01:11:11):
it exist i don't know it seems to exist amongst white
gays maybe in west hollywood like west hollywood i guess or maybe like social
media or just media kind of paints a different picture right but you're right
in the sense that i've never actually seen it replicated in reality especially
in like Like communities of color.

(01:11:33):
Because I feel like when we talk about like that idea, right,
of community, then it's like when we really boil it down to it,
it's like, well, what is it really?
And then when I think of like, what do I mean by community? I guess the really
only thing I can think of is like when I'm here with like my gays and like they're
the friends that I actually know and talk to.
Right. And I feel like, yeah, like the only time I ever see a huge gaggle of

(01:11:55):
gays is when it's like a huge group of like white guys in West Hollywood.
Would and i think they're i don't know why it's the only one that can maintain friend like
a huge friend group maybe because it's all they're just fucking each
other because it just seems like it's always just
like that could be possibly true i don't know it's crazy that they even they
seem to like genuinely like each other or do they not like i don't it's it's

(01:12:18):
not clear what the quality of yeah it all seems like it's like a real housewife's
moment but with no cameras where where they all hate each other,
but they're just like forced to be together.
It's definitely, it's not a scene I've like ever really wanted to be a part
of. I mean, that's also true.

(01:12:39):
Like, I don't think none of us really wants to be a part of that scene,
but that's the only thing that we, as a gay,
you feel like, oh, like I need to be a part of this because you know, like, ugh,
I need my, I need, we say community,
how many times we say community but like I need that like I need I need to be
around people like minded do you find out that like wow like most of us are

(01:13:04):
not like minded yeah we just like.
Dudes yeah like you know i'm saying like their common interest sexuality is
like maybe not enough of a commonality yeah exactly right to connect because
like i'm still not gonna fuck you but like i still want to be around people
like you know like i want to be around the gays but like
i think it's more of like i want to like make out in front

(01:13:26):
of i want to make out with guys in a safe place where
no one's going to judge right yeah you just need
the safe space yeah to do to do me you know
or yeah but i think like i had my like we ho phase like i was out there like
a lot and that's where i used to go and party but i never i always went with

(01:13:47):
like a group of people yeah i i know we used to go and it was just like to drink
and dance and i felt like i never.
Met anyone and built like a
friendship from from our friends yeah
like i i used to like chat and interact
with people but like never went past that yeah like
being in like the boys town feel like community

(01:14:10):
in the sense of community i guess you
two like were community for each other yes for each other yeah see i think that's
probably what we look at we look at a community like more than one person all
you need is one that's all you need yeah really just two or three makes right
yeah maybe we should title this episode community i'm definitely not talking

(01:14:30):
to anybody I used to hang out with back in the day.
The fact that you two used to go out or had a WeHo phase and you're still in
each other's lives is kind of remarkable.
I did have another group of LA gays who are now all disbanded.
She disbanded the group. You're not in touch with any of them?

(01:14:51):
I'm in touch with them through the phone or one of them through the phone.
But I think most... Through the phone, is that like a call or a text?
More like a sending memes.
Okay.
Being a theater artist or like sort of me
being a professor oh nice yeah so

(01:15:11):
that's something i mean that's also true right but how
do you navigate in those spaces i love it
i will say that i'm very grateful to be able to teach young younger people people
who are like early on for the most part early on in their theater careers like
people in their early 20s who are imagining having a professional theater future,

(01:15:35):
I'm very grateful that I can be there to show them that they can create theater
that can, you know, change the world.
Because I teach a class called Theater, Protest, and Social Change.
So, for me, it's really important that for those who are about to graduate,
if they only really imagine themselves being an actor or a writer or a director,

(01:15:58):
that, That they also realize that they have the power to create original pieces
about social issues that are important and that maybe they might change people's
minds or maybe they might raise awareness about a really important issue and
actually encourage people to respond in a positive way.
I really like I feel like it's a privilege to be able to introduce that idea

(01:16:25):
to these students you know because I think being an actor can be so powerless
and to feel like that they can create.
Their own work that represents who they are and what they care about,
I think is an honor. It's a privilege.
I think theater people do underestimate the power of theater, the power of the arts.

(01:16:48):
You know, arts really can change the world and can, you know,
be an outlet for healing and it can like save lives.
And I think people can be very intentional about that.
So to me, I have been practicing theater or sort of in that capacity my entire adult life.
I even said that I came out in the LA Times when I was, you know,

(01:17:12):
like 20 years ago, and that's because I was part of a play in which there was
a gay Muslim character on stage, and that was pretty radical at the time.
And so, like, even by creating the possibility.
Of a gay Muslim identity, a fictional one,
on stage, age led to heightened level

(01:17:33):
of awareness of queer muslim identity and i even came
out and so i became sort of a real person attached
to it and that inspired i know
that it inspired younger people in my muslim community people
who are like teens who saw that i came
out and that and they were like questioning their sexuality
at that time and that they sort of like felt less

(01:17:54):
alone so nice things like theater
the arts representation all that
matters all that really does matter you know and it really can make people feel
seen and heard you know i'm sure all of us can talk about the first time we

(01:18:15):
saw like a gay character in a tv show or a film and right or at least which Which,
what has been a profound sort of like moment of representation,
you know, I'm sure we can all talk about that and know that that,
you know, has a profound effect on us. Yeah, for sure. Wow.

(01:18:38):
That's really awesome about what you...
You're talking about the teaching the actors about the basically turning them
into political actors but that's awesome and amazing and really interesting
and cool and that's great and i'm glad that you're doing that and also that
whole thing about representation is like amazing like,

(01:18:59):
obviously i would want you to speak more on representation but like obviously
like what you just said is amazing like how you're the character in the play
also helped inspire you you to come out yourself because obviously,
and that's just, it's everything. That's everything like what you just said.
Well, that's sort of, again, how I think the arts works and how,

(01:19:21):
and again, maybe theater is my language, but I think you can make it film, dance, visual art.
I think all of that has the opportunity to inspire people,
get people to connect emotionally to to something and, you know,
feel, have a sort of deeper understanding about something, maybe themselves

(01:19:42):
or maybe about the person next to them, or maybe about the person next door.
And I think the arts in general makes us more human, you know,
and more compassionate.
And I, I have a master's in applied theater.
I got that 12 years ago now, 11 years ago now. And so I'm very committed to

(01:20:05):
people using theater to change the world.
Very far away from the for-profit, being on Broadway type of way of practicing theater.
Sort of like theater in the streets, radical street performance.
I mean, I feel like, is this a new concept? I almost feel like where you're

(01:20:28):
talking about, it feels so new.
I mean, theater has been practiced as a form of social change for years.
In this country, it goes back to maybe the 1960s, and even before that,
after the Great Depression or during the Great Depression, there was something

(01:20:49):
called the Federal Theater Project,
which was something FDR, President FDR, introduced.
Through something called the WPA, the Workers' Project Administration, going like 90 years ago.
But there was a federal theater project division of the Workers' Project Administration,
which was like a government-funded arts,

(01:21:11):
and people were writing plays about labor unions and poverty and plays that
actually represented themselves.
Those are some of, I would say, the origins of theater as a form of social justice.
Very interesting. I didn't even know this was a thing.

(01:21:37):
Probably the last time the government really ever cared about
the arts when they're using for
propaganda yeah that's cool
and for you like what what what has
your journey with the arts been like like when you
get into plays and doing theater i did
my first play as a freshman in high school it was

(01:21:59):
little shop of horror horrors and yeah
it was really fun it was it sparked my
love for musicals i'm definitely a musical
theater queen even though i
don't like work on musicals there's not a lot of musicals for
social justice out there some before i

(01:22:21):
was teaching theater at the college level i was teaching theater
to teens teens and to introduce
theater to like a young person who's like maybe
14 13 or 14 especially if
they're like someone who's been a bit shy or kind of like a loner and not have
it a lot of friends someone like me that's how i was i had no friends like up

(01:22:46):
until maybe i did that first show like my freshman year of high school but i
was the type of person that in elementary and junior high,
I would come home after school and I would just like not hang out with friends.
I didn't really have any friends. I was too shy, too awkward. And I think the theater.
Or in general, an arts program can really get someone to come out of their shell

(01:23:11):
and connect to a different part of themselves that society doesn't really foster.
I think as a society, we encourage young people to play sports or to do extracurricular
activities that are not necessarily creative.
And I think to be creative, to

(01:23:33):
play, that kind of gets people to discover different parts of themselves.
And I do think that theater, when introduced at a young age,
can really give people social skills, communication skills, and get people to
be able to recognize their own gifts and talents and just makes people more

(01:23:55):
confident. And that is what happened to me.
It's sort of, I got to witness how profound, how theater transformed my way
of being and my way of interacting with the world around me.
And I think ever since I've been an arts educator,
because I want other younger people who kind of feel awkward and alone and a

(01:24:19):
misfit, I think the arts can help them create community or find community. Right.
And fight themselves. Fight themselves. Yeah. And then get them out of their
shell and just be able to open up and just be the butterfly that they are.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for everyone, it's different. For some people,
it is sports that do that. Right.

(01:24:40):
But a lot of people don't talk about the arts. Yeah. We don't talk about the
creative piece of it versus, you know, oh, to go ahead and play baseball or basketball or tennis.
Right. Like, no, go in. but was you
afraid to talk to people and like in
open settings before that like were you that side that
you were like oh i don't want to talk in front of a crowd like oh my god i think

(01:25:03):
i was just sort of like a quirky okay so
you already you you had the gift of jab okay i
had the gift of gab but like i was like maybe a quirky young
kid who was like obsessed with like i love lucy yeah i just wasn't like other
kids okay like i didn't care about anything else you know so yeah i just stood

(01:25:28):
it didn't really find a group of people that i connected with,
now do you put on shows as well as a professor or do you like i don't not through
the school i'm too new there for me to for them to give me that responsibility
though that would be a We'll keep our ear to the ground because it's going to
be soon. Yeah, hopefully soon.

(01:25:49):
I do sort of produce my own events, not very often.
I think before we started recording,
I was telling you about an event I did a few months ago that Dr.
Mikey was involved in, like a queer Arab storytelling event that I did in L.A. in October.
So I'll do events like that, some sort of community-oriented storytelling event

(01:26:13):
in which most likely Arabs or
Muslims or queers are taking the stage and sharing a bit about themselves.
Ourselves i can't wait for the next one i will let her go to something like
that i'll let you know i uh don't have anything on the docket as right i ain't
trying to put no pressure on you now maybe soon i'll keep my ear to the ground

(01:26:35):
i'm like wait i want to tell you in high school,
i auditioned for the breakfast club
oh for the part of i don't even remember
part i was auditioning and i did a monologue from
breakfast at tiffany's where paul varjack
talks and does his whole speech at the end about
what was it where it's like you know what your

(01:26:58):
problem is yeah that one whoever you are i was gonna stick you in a cage whatever
yeah did that whole thing and then i got the part of bender from the breakfast
club and then i'll tell you what i I sure didn't come for the callback and I
didn't do anything with it. And I just ignored it.
And I was like, Oh, I don't want anyone to make fun of me.

(01:27:21):
So I regret it so bad. Oh, that's too bad. Well, we have to put it on so you could play. Yeah.
Oh, we just came up with our new show.
But to all you little queers out there, you better do the callback. Cause I felt so later.
Cause I was like, I should have just did it. you didn't want people to make

(01:27:42):
fun of you that's what it was I was shy and I was like they're just gonna call
me gay even though I already am gay.
That's too bad I know but I just had to tell you that I internalize homophobia
it's real did you guys ever audition for anything no I never did do that I've just always acted up so,

(01:28:04):
I wanted to can I like bring something up around like faith hell yeah Yeah, I miss him.
And it's also going to be related to, say, what's happening in Palestine. Go for it.
Something that I find very inspiring is that a lot of these people who don't

(01:28:29):
know whether they're going to live,
people are being slaughtered all around them and massacred all around them.
A lot of the things they are doing is going deeper into their faith.
They're taking this really difficult time as an opportunity to even be more

(01:28:54):
invested in God and to literally just be reciting prayers all day.
And it's like with no clarity on their future, like with a future that looks
so dark and whether they're not going to survive or not,
the one thing that they have to hold on to now is their faith.

(01:29:16):
And so I think that's a really powerful example of how faith really can be an
anchor, and that it can be...
I think there's this sort of idea that if we're created, and so if we come from
a source, and if people call that source God, that...

(01:29:41):
This world separates us from that, you know, like as we get older,
like when we're a baby, we're, we just came from God.
We're like at our source, our most sort of like our powerful self,
our purest, most essential self.
And then as we get older and as we experience pain and trauma,

(01:30:04):
all these things take, separate us from God and that the task of life is to go go back to God.
And I think when you see people who are facing utter horror and utter tragedy,
I think while that's a time where faith gets tested and it's like, oh, how does...
Some people are going to be like, well, God clearly doesn't exist because why

(01:30:28):
would God allow this to happen?
And then there are the people who this is happening to who actually even go
deeper into to their faith,
you know, and don't see it as, they don't see the horror all around them as
evidence of a lack of God, but more as an opportunity to even go closer to God, to.

(01:30:53):
Go, to return to their source, especially if they see that their time on earth is limited.
It's like, then, you know, that means we need to be as close to God as possible.
I don't know. I find it very inspiring. I think some of the more spiritual people
I know are Palestinians, you know, and they probably have all the excuse not to be.

(01:31:18):
Yeah. Yeah. No, and that makes sense. Because, you know, a lot of like,
I have clients and they always lean on religion, the clients,
and they say it's really helpful and beneficial for them.
So like, I do have respect for religion and what like provides and brings comfort,
you know, to people. it's beautiful yeah for those who are you know.

(01:31:41):
Spiritually like open and connected it can be a
real yeah comfort yeah
and like i said i missed that when i stopped practicing i missed that comfort
there was a lack of comfort in my life so how did you get like so i know that
you went to the the retreat but how did you end up like deep diving back in?

(01:32:06):
Did you just start attending?
I think it was just like a realization.
Like a self-realization around what is possible and that this world is limiting
and that God is beyond that.

(01:32:27):
And so, I think when I recognized that I had been living out a story of that,
God doesn't love me because I'm gay or whatever,
that that really was just a man-made story.
And our brains are limited in our language and are limited in our capacity to understand.

(01:32:50):
So if you sort of let understanding go and the ability to know and like the
requirement to know and to name,
I think it's a lot easier to sort of accept what is possible.
Like everything is limitless and like God is abundant and love is abundant. Right.

(01:33:15):
That's very woo-woo. It is. But you know what? It's kind of woo-woo that we
like. Mm-hmm. Woo-woo. I agree.
This has been very enlightening.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this stuff.
It's nice to remind myself.
Because it's not like things I articulate very often. It's not.

(01:33:37):
Because you probably don't. I mean, yeah. Yeah, because I was going to ask you,
like, has teaching been hard recently?
No. Like, you mean with, like, what's happening? Yeah. No, if anything,
I would say that the youth are very inspired.
I mean, right. It is a different group of students that are leading.

(01:34:00):
Yeah, the youth seem to be connected to just to at least around like, say, this issue.
Yeah. It seems like the youth I'm interacting with at my school and my campus,
they're recognizing the Palestinian right to be free.
And I do think former or older generations have always recognized the need for

(01:34:26):
the state of Israel to exist and sort of ignored what that means for the Palestinians.
But the younger people don't have an emotional connection to Israel because
the Holocaust was a long time ago.
So I think you're finally seeing people being able to sort of recognize the

(01:34:46):
injustice of it from an objective point of view, not from some ancestral point of view. Right. Yeah.
It's true, because I feel like, at least in the American folklore, right?
Like, when we made up Israel, it was very much like, there was no problem in that. Yeah.

(01:35:10):
And that it's something that Jewish people needed to feel safe in the world after the Holocaust.
Because they didn't tell us the part where there was already people there.
They left that part conveniently out. Right. Yeah.
Which they do all the time. just like there were no people here yeah right yeah

(01:35:30):
exactly because if we're all about lands that are used to be people's lands
they are not about giving no indians their lands,
leave it up to them we came over here by
ourselves yeah yeah oh good no
no good i guess i i'm curious uh because
i feel like with what's happening

(01:35:52):
in palestine the genocide like i feel like
the topic of like colonialization has like
really been on people's more minds more and i
feel like the idea of like land back has starting to really gain so i don't
know like for for you as someone who does social justice theater just social
justice oriented what is it like to kind of see that kind of on a main stage

(01:36:15):
and being talked about it's nice to see that people are starting to recognize that.
How oppression is, how all oppressions are interconnected.
And that I think for years, you know, people would attach,
you know, the equal rights movement here and, like, Black liberation to the

(01:36:39):
Palestinian liberation movement as well.
It's this idea of a whole population of people being treated as,
like, less than and not given the same resources or opportunities to succeed.
And I think the more people can recognize that what is happening in Palestine

(01:37:02):
is also happening here, has been happening here, and is happening in places
all over the world, that it's all interconnected.
And I do think that that's what people are starting to recognize,
is that the palestinian issue
is not just over there it's an issue

(01:37:22):
around settler colonialism which is
and and that the u.s is also funding what's
happening over there and that we're that we're a settler
colonialist nation too and that
there are indigenous people here who have
been eradicated and basically removed
erased from sort of

(01:37:45):
the narrative of this country you know at least the
dominant narrative in this country yeah and
that it's really important from at least an artistic standpoint from a theatrical
standpoint to invest in native voices to invest in preserving the stories of
the the people who were the original inhabitants of this land,

(01:38:08):
because the dominant culture is actively erasing all those stories.
Yep. Dead part. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Motherfuckers.
What would you say, from your point of view, would be the most effective way to help the.

(01:38:29):
Palestinian situation? I mean, I guess the most effective way is to talk about
it, is to get as many people informed as possible, like bring it up at the dinner table.
Because I think it's really easy to not. It's easy to look the other way.
And I think the more people care, the more people can't turn a blind eye.

(01:38:54):
Like this country, the political leaders want nothing more than to turn a blind eye to it.
And what really is the goal is for the Palestinian population to be eradicated
and for Israel to expand.
That is what they're trying to do. Israel is trying to now take Gaza after it's

(01:39:20):
It's taken almost everything else.
You know, if you look at an old map of what Palestine was and versus what Palestine looks like today.
And then basically now Gaza is about to be erased as well, you know,
or swallowed up by Israel. At least that's the goal.
That I think it's easy to just sort of look the other way and let that happen.

(01:39:44):
It's been happening for 75 years. So I think the more, probably the most effective
way is to like not stop talking about it, you know, and to like call your reps,
make sure that you know where your political leaders stand.
And, you know, the Congress person who represents me voted to send money, to send arms to Israel.

(01:40:10):
So, you know, like, I live in a congressional district in which my congressional
leader doesn't, you know, doesn't give a fuck about how I feel.
But that doesn't mean we can't let them know. You just went to a protest,
no? Yeah. What happened there?
Which one was it? Did you go, like, yesterday?

(01:40:34):
No, I didn't go to that one. Because I hasn't do. But I've been to ones before, like...
There was a group that was holding protests outside of City Hall because they
wanted the city council to sign a ceasefire.
So we were pressuring the city council to put that into action,

(01:40:54):
to put it on the calendar so they can vote and do it.
And we had to go down. I think we went down like three or four times before
it finally got put on and they talked about it.
So they did get put on. Yeah, yeah. I think they voted for it too.
So they signed on to a ceasefire here in Long Beach. The pressure does work.
You have to. You have to disrupt.
And I think that has shown and that has worked, right?

(01:41:15):
The civil rights movement, like, they disrupted, right? The sit-ins,
all that, you know, the Selma Walk and the march, you know, everything like
that causes disruption because, like, that raises awareness,
that puts it on people's radar.
Are and i i think a lot of people are getting caught up in
in their feelings when they say this is disruption as
a way to lose people from your movement and like i think those people

(01:41:37):
aren't ready to hear these messages and because they're not they
they don't want to deal with the reality of what's happening
i like the people who say that we're never gonna be for the fucking
i mean also likely that you know yeah
i i think there's what we're also recognizing
is probably because of the

(01:41:57):
24-hour news cycle and everyone having their own
devices and stuff i do think that we've
sort of that has led to a little
bit of a dehumanization in the
sense that i believe there's like seems like a moral apathy out there that feels
like it's hard to overcome because it's like you know know with what's happening

(01:42:22):
in palestine you know children have been murdered maybe like.
Tens of thousands of children have been murdered. And despite seeing images
and video of it, a lot of people are still able to look the other way.
And I think that's because we've gotten so used to scrolling past things that

(01:42:48):
we can literally turn our attention away from anything that matters. Yeah.
You know, so I do think that we're also seeing kind of a long term negative.
Effect of everyone sort of having their own sort of device and being able to
control the information that they consume.

(01:43:11):
Yeah no definitely yeah because
it definitely it does feel fucking overwhelming
it feels like when you see these images
on twitter and it's just like i
can't do anything and it's like after all the
after everything i've already tried to do for myself

(01:43:31):
here it feels like and now what
can i do for other people nobody wants to
listen to me nobody wants to help me nobody wants to to vote in
my direction a congress people aren't listening and it
just feels hopeless it does yeah but
i mean that's what the system is created
to do right like it's meant to take so long so

(01:43:52):
people give up and so people feel hopeless and like doing
this requires like so much energy that's why you
need a community to do it right there needs to be a lot of people doing
it and i think a lot of this the focus should
be on like just making noise and awareness
right like we see these videos and
yes we can't we can do things it's

(01:44:14):
just not like what we want to do like we want to save those people's life
like right there right then you know and and unfortunately that's
not possible but there are definitely things that we can do true
yeah there are definitely things we can do but i think it's hard you
know because like my thought came back because it's also like to see.
How people like dissociate or not like acknowledging this but
i think it's also so it's been interesting to see the

(01:44:36):
propaganda that's been spewed and i
think that's that is playing a huge role like you know
the whole equating anti-zionism with being anti-semitic you know and and using
october 7th as a guise to support this it's just i don't understand how people
can really i don't know it's interesting that people fell for that narrative

(01:44:58):
and maybe it's because like we had at our own, like, September 11th, and, like,
look how we responded. Right.
I don't know. Yeah. But, yeah, there's protests everywhere. There's a lot of
action. Because I feel like...
Excuse my white tears. But I feel like, you know, when they always say,
like, what would you be doing if this was World War II and there was Jews in

(01:45:22):
the concentration camps?
This is what you'd be doing right now. And then it does feel very much like
that. And it feels very much like, well, what am I fucking doing?
I'm not doing anything. I can't do anything.
I mean, and I also think probably in World War II, there probably wasn't a whole
lot that you could do to stop that from happening. I mean, that's why there was a war going on.

(01:45:44):
So I think it's also a little misleading to like connect it to like in action back in the 1940s.
Like, yeah, I think it's, it's kind of like sad that if anyone,
if anything, there's like a blame on the people for not being able to stop this genocide.

(01:46:05):
Right. It's like, no blame the government. Yeah.
Like, like it's not our fault that this genocide has happened.
And you know all we really can do is call attention to it or ask for a ceasefire
or whatever but we're not the
ones in control yeah yeah god damn well vote people out vote people out.

(01:46:28):
That's true that's true not that
it's a depressing it's kind of a
depressing point to sort of
like i don't know leave on right but
like we kind of leave every episode like that it feels natural
there are things we can do yeah we can as a collective individuals we can put

(01:46:55):
pressure on our elected politicians governed officials.
Call your senator yeah call your mayor call your whoever the fuck and like don't
let don't let let yourself become desensitized, you know, like keep yourself
human, you know? Yeah, exactly.

(01:47:15):
You know, like don't, if you notice that you can turn away and go about your
day, you know, question that.
Why are you able to? What happened to you that you're able to?
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And
I think also understanding that like all our struggles are interconnected.
So if we fight for one, we fight for all at the same time. So like if you put

(01:47:37):
energy in in something like you're it's gonna have a ripple effect as well. Yeah, I,
I was just thinking back to the other episode where we were talking about those
billboards where it's like Hamas is your problem in Downey.
Which I pass on the way to. And it's like Hamas is definitely not our problem.

(01:47:59):
Don't be mistaken. Hamas is your problem. I don't. As I'm fucking in Downey.
I want that organization's money. Right? Those billboards are not cheap.
No, they're not. Especially on those electronic billboards.
All up and down. What is it? The 91. Every day I go home, I see that shit.

(01:48:20):
It's on the five as well. Wow.
I never noticed. That's ridiculous. I don't go past the 91.
It's to your limit.
Yeah, I think it's called Jubilung. Oh, Jubilung. Oh, yeah. Do you have a social
media in case our followers want to follow you and your...
Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm at, on Instagram, I'm at DramaRoms.

(01:48:45):
So, and I've had this, this was my AIM screen name. Oh, okay. I love it.
It's definitely 20 plus years old, but it's D-R-A-M-A, like drama,
and then Roms, R-A-M-S, and my name is Rami.
So people call me Roms, DramaRoms. Oh, I love it. On Instagram and Twitter.

(01:49:07):
Okay. But I don't really tweet much. Drama.
Oh, duh. It wasn't until I've gotten older that I realized that I might be sending
the message that I'm drama.
But I'm not. I swear I'm not. I work in the fields. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:49:30):
Well, you know what? I think that was a good one. I think that was a very good one. Was.
Was there anything else that comes to mind or...
Know just thank you for doing this podcast thank you
for in terms of representation you know
representing queer long beach and but like just thank you for carving out a

(01:49:51):
space for local queers to talk about themselves and you know show that we're
here and that we're part of long beach you You know, take it from a native Long,
or a born, someone born in Long Beach.
Take it from him. Yeah. All right, everybody. Okay.

(01:50:12):
Well, I think that was a good one, like I already said. I'd like to say thank you. Thank you.
I'd also like to say thank you to myself, Nina.
I'd like to say thank you to Christoph, Dr. Mikey, and of course, our very special guest.
From all of us here at the Queer OBC you're good enough, you're smart enough

(01:50:35):
and doggone it, people like you goodnight, thank you, goodnight goodnight, sleep tight.

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