August 15, 2023 • 30 mins
Picture a world where love transcends barriers, prejudice, and misunderstanding; that's the world seen through B Proud's lens. Guest, photographer B Proud, transports us into the heart of the LGBTQ community with her powerful and evocative images. She shares insights into her captivating projects, such as her 2014 book featuring black and white photographs of LGBTQ couples and her current visually stunning exhibit, the Transcending Love Project, celebrating transgender and gender nonconforming couples and families in vibrant color.
B Proud unearths the complexity of the transgender experience. With her Transcending Love Project, B Proud encapsulates the diversity, beauty, and resilience within the community. We delve into the creative process, the stories, and the significance of the project.
Together, we navigate the evolution of LGBTQ+ rights and representation as seen through B Proud's lens. We use the backdrop of her work to touch upon the landmark case of Edith Windsor, whose fight for love laid the groundwork for the Obergefell decision on marriage equality. It's not just a conversation about her photographs; it's a conversation about the message they carry, the progress that's been made, and the importance of keeping the dialogue alive. Join us, as we celebrate love, equality, and representation with B Proud.
Websites:
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bproudphoto.com
firstcomeslove.org
transcendinglove.org
First Comes Love Project on Instagram
Barbara Proud Facebook Page
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brad Shreve (00:00):
This is Queer we Are.
When your medium is audio, it'sa bit tricky to bring on a
guest whose art is visual.
I mean, what do I do with aguest who is an outstanding
photographer like B Proud?
Ask you, the listener, to emailme your address so I can snail
(00:24):
mail you her portfolio?
Of course, that's ridiculous,but you'll find, while listening
to our conversation is alsounnecessary.
You'll hear enough about B'sphotos that you'll want to see
them for yourselves, but what'simportant is the why she took on
these projects she has and thatmessage is loud and clear in
her interview, with no visualaids necessary.
(00:45):
Here on Queer we Are, I haveconversations with LGBTQ people
sharing positive stories withinour community.
You know that thing that's beenin the headlines, or that
bullshit that's been going on inthat one state, and then
there's that thing that thosepeople are doing.
You won't hear that here, or atleast not much of it.
For a brief period, I cutthrough the noisy headlines
(01:05):
bombarding us every day,focusing on the good news that
isn't shared enough, and giveyour brain a break, if only for
a few minutes.
So what are B's projects?
Well, in 2014, she published amagnificent book of her photos
with LGBTQ couples with a storyabout them.
She is currently tourningexhibit that will eventually
make it to a book of its own.
(01:27):
This time around, her photosare of transgender couples, and
the photos are nothing short ofbreathtaking, and one
interesting difference betweenthe two projects is she had a
specific reason to use onlyblack and white photos in the
2014 broader LGBT communitycouples book, yet on the current
(01:48):
project with transgendercouples, she found it important
that they be in color.
Why the difference?
Listen and you'll find out.
And the good news is you don'thave to wait long to hear it,
because I am Brad Shreve and myguest is B Proud and Queer.
We Are Barbara Proud.
(02:15):
There is an old saying I don'tknow art, but I know what I like
.
Now that's typically attributedto Walt Disney and, I think,
orson Welles, but its origin islikely much older than that era.
Regardless, I think it'ssomething I think many people
can relate to and, that said,I've been looking over many,
(02:38):
many of your photographs and Ican confidently say I have been
viewing art.
Well, thank you.
Well, thank you.
It's beautiful.
Now your name is Barbara Proud,but you go by B Proud and you
have every reason to be proudbased on what, everything I've
seen and work that you're doing.
B Proud (02:56):
Thanks.
I was pretty lucky to be bornwith that name and now I just
have to live up to it.
Brad Shreve (03:02):
Well, I was going to say, is it difficult to live
up to it?
B Proud (03:06):
I'm working on it.
Brad Shreve (03:07):
It keeps down your toes.
I'm sure I'm working on it.
It's very fortuitous.
Do you keep it in your mindwhen you do things?
Absolutely Wonderful, I thinkI'd be, from this point forward.
Okay, we're going to discussthe Transunding Love Project
that you're currently working on, but first I've got to ask you
more of a mainstream question,because President Obama and Lady
(03:27):
Gaga you photographed them onthe same day, which is quite an
honor.
You showed us how respectedyour work is.
What is the story behind that?
B Proud (03:37):
Well, actually I've photographed for the Human
Rights Campaign for decades andnumerous capacities from still
life, commercial stuff, retailthings to their national dinners
and some of the regionaldinners.
So I photographed the nationaldinners.
Brad Shreve (03:52):
And the Girl Scouts and the Girl Scouts.
I like to say them because Ilove the Girl Scouts.
B Proud (03:58):
And so they were both scheduled to be at a Human
Rights Campaign national dinnertogether Actually one event, but
they were both there.
And then Lady Gaga there was amarch the next day, and she was
also a speaker at the march, soI got to make some more
photographs of her.
Brad Shreve (04:13):
So you and they were all at the right place at
the right time, exactly theright threesome, exactly Along
with 3,000 other people.
A great trifecta.
I want to get in depth aboutthe Transcending Love Project in
a bit.
I want to talk about thegenesis, but before we get to
that, just give us a briefdescription of what the
Transcending Love Project isbefore we get into it deeper
(04:34):
later.
B Proud (04:35):
I like to call it a celebration of transgender and
gender nonconforming couples andfamilies across the country,
and it's just a way for me totry to offer to the world the
humanistic side of a communitythat has been thrown under the
bus forever, to try to make avery palatable, easily
(04:57):
digestible vision of people thatare normally in many people's
minds.
A trans person is a man in adress and that's as far as it
goes.
So people don't know thatthey've even met a trans person,
and they may very well have,they may very well work next to
one, but they have a vision intheir mind and, with all the
hatred and bigotry going onright now against that community
, I think that showing thebeauty and the full humanity of
(05:20):
this community is reallyimportant.
Brad Shreve (05:23):
I will say work like yours is very important and
I have a family member, deepreligious, and whenever a trans
person would come on televisionyou can tell that's a man in a
way and things like that, andhad a long discussion with her
several times about someindividuals are able to have a
more feminine look and thereforeyou would look at them and
wouldn't say that and othersdon't have that type of build
(05:45):
and it doesn't change the factthat they are a woman or they
are a man, you know whichever.
And it took a while, but shegets it now.
Oh great, she not only gets it,she respects it.
Good for you.
People do change, no matter howmuch people want to think,
people do change.
B Proud (05:58):
Well, in order to change, we have to have the
conversations, and that's whatmy work is about, too, is having
those conversations.
Brad Shreve (06:06):
Exactly, I said I wanted to go back to the Genesis
and that's why I want to talkabout your portraits of enduring
LGBTQ relationships.
That's the prequel totranscending love and that was
published back in 2014.
And it's not lost on me thatthat was a year before the
Supreme Court Obergefell versusHodges.
Right, and forgive me if I getthat wrong, but basically
(06:27):
marriage equality became the lawof the land.
What was the impetus to do that?
B Proud (06:32):
It was kind of a culmination of things, or I say
a domino effect of many thingsthat just coincided at the same
time, beginning with the monthbefore President Obama's
election.
In October, my then partner,now wife, and I celebrated our
20th anniversary and on that daywe became the longest surviving
couple in our families.
(06:52):
So they're in my family.
A few had passed away so hadseparated it till death to his
part, but in others were all ontheir second, third and fourth
tries at marriage.
But they had all the rights.
They had 1,148 more rights thanwe did instantly.
Yeah, we were the picture ofstability and we were accepted
(07:13):
by our families for sure.
We were the pets-itters, we'rethe godparents to all the nieces
and nephews, we were the eldercare, we were powers of attorney
, we were executors of wills.
We were even executors of theexes wills.
So we're just the stable couple, yet we don't get the rights.
And that was really wearing onme.
And then President Obama waselected.
(07:33):
At the same time, Proposition A8passed in California, as well
as a few other hateful measuresin Arkansas and other states,
and it just, for me, was the tipof the iceberg, the straw that
broke the camel's back.
Whatever it is I just I hadenough, and at the same time, we
also had a great economicdecline and I lost a lot of work
(07:55):
.
So I decided I would make myown work and that I would do
something completely differentfrom what I had been doing.
I had my commercial work, but Ialso photographed personally in
a very different way, and Idecided that when I teach my
students, I tell them that theirart is their voice.
And I decided that I had towalk the walk and that I would
try to use my photography tomake a difference and to show a
(08:16):
different way of looking at acommunity that, again, people
don't understand.
The media would always portraythe LGBTQ community in pride,
marches or protests and scantilyclad men and with bellow
scarves and so forth, and that'snot who we are.
That's who we are, you knowlike.
Maybe for 30 days in the yearwe celebrate, but the rest of
the time we're paying the billsand buying cars and going to
(08:39):
college and raising kids and allthose other things.
And I wanted the people to knowthat, and so I decided I would
strip away all of the rainbowimagery and make black and white
environmental portraits so youwould see the space that people
were inhabiting and hopefullythat would lend another level of
understanding.
(09:00):
And I would just ask people tolook at the heart and soul of
the subjects and who they are aspeople and that if you get to
know someone it's a whole loteasier to accept them.
If you know somebody and youlike, oh they're okay, well,
they're gay, but oh well, that'sall right, they're good people,
and I was trying to get to thatpoint.
I thought also that each of theportraits is accompanied by a
(09:22):
story, so I decided I was goingto learn video and teach myself
video so that I could interviewthe couples and then I would
have film footage plus I couldhave it transcribed, so I
wouldn't have to take a lot ofnotes and I could write the text
that would go next to theportraits.
Brad Shreve (09:38):
And I love that you did in black and white.
They're gorgeous.
And listen to explain the book.
It's one page, that's a couplein black and white and
photographs are just beautiful,and then just one page a brief
description of who they are.
Is that correct?
B Proud (09:51):
Yeah it fills the page mostly, but talks about who they
are as people and what it'slike to be together, what makes
their relationship thrive andwhat sort of obstacles they've
overcome in order to be togetherfor any number of years.
My premise was we're alreadyliving for decades ostensibly as
married, just without therights.
We have to spend a lot of moneyon legal documents to protect
(10:14):
us that other people don't haveto do, but we're living just
like they are.
Brad Shreve (10:19):
And it's interesting that Prop 8 and some
of the other lies I've passedare what motivated you to do
this, because in a sense, Ithink that really made a
difference and really helped tomake a change.
You mentioned pride parades andI love to participate them and
I love to go over the top, butbefore I came out, I really
resented them because I didn'twant to be a woman.
(10:41):
I didn't understand transpeople at all, or now I look
back and boy, I was ignorant andI also didn't want to wear a
gold thong and dance on a float,so I didn't connect with that
at all.
Now, coming out, I love it, butI think your choice to do that
in black and white was a verysmart move for many people to
(11:01):
see the real person.
B Proud (11:03):
Yeah, I'm, black and white is classic photography and
it just in a way I don't wantto say it's more emotional, but
you get to the heart and thesoul of the people without other
distractions.
I say that now, buttranscending love is in color.
Brad Shreve (11:17):
Well, and we're going to get to why.
There's a reason why he choseto do that.
The day before the decision wasmade, it was announced that
there's going to be a march inLong Beach and the march will
either be a celebration or aprotest, and unfortunately, as
you know, it turned out to be aprotest.
But what made me feel reallygood about it is it wasn't a
(11:37):
parade, it wasn't a festival.
It was people angry and theywere out in numbers unbelievable
.
So it's that pendulum, likeokay, you just did this to us,
and now we're really pissed offand we're motivated.
B Proud (11:52):
Yeah, in New York now there's a counter march to the
Pride march because the Pridemarch has become so corporate
that a lot of people I forgetwhat the name of it is, but
they've gone back to theoriginal reason for the march
and it happens separately andit's much more a protest.
Brad Shreve (12:09):
Yeah, and you know what?
I don't mind the corporationscatering to the LGBTQ community.
I think it's much better thanback when they ignored us and it
acknowledges that they knowthat we are a buying power.
But I do agree it's got alittle overboard that you go to
a Pride parade and it's AT&T andevery major corporation going
by and occasionally you'll seesome organization waving their
(12:31):
hand that there needs to be abalance.
I'm glad they're there, butthat they're acknowledges,
regardless of what theirpolicies are the rest of the
year.
At least they're seeing thatwe're getting their attention.
B Proud (12:41):
Yeah, and I get to see people wearing my name on their
shirt all over the place.
Brad Shreve (12:50):
Well, that must be your favorite time of year if
you have an ego.
B Proud (12:55):
That's pretty funny.
Brad Shreve (13:01):
It's critical.
People know what's going on andread the headlines, which
typically, though, focus on thestruggles we face.
It's important, but, forSandy's sake, we need to hear
the good stuff too, and there'smore of it than you may think.
My goal is to present thebright side of life to LGBTQ
people.
I think it's important.
If you do, too, please tell afriend about Queer.
(13:22):
We are telling them inconversation is great, but one
simple way is to share thisepisode or any of the others
easily.
You can do it right there inyour app.
You get that grimace off thatsomeone's face and let them know
where to find the good stuff.
Send them here to Queer we are.
You're talking about theexhibits that you have, and you
(13:47):
are married with your wife,allison, and Delaware, and
you're an adjunct professor inPhiladelphia.
You go on all these tours.
You do commercial photography,you do artistic photography.
Where do you find the time forall of this?
B Proud (14:00):
It's not easy, that's for sure, but you just make it
happen.
I've got a super supportivewife who has always had my back
through this process, even whenduring first comes love I had.
My mother and my aunt were bothin their 90s and ended up
having to be having to have alot of care and Allison would
(14:20):
just say go do what you have todo.
I've got this, so that's superimportant and we have a beach
house now, so we get to go awayand just kind of chill.
Brad Shreve (14:30):
So what does Bee do , though, when Bee needs to shut
down and give time to herself?
B Proud (14:34):
I'd be with my family and my dogs.
I love my dogs so much.
Brad Shreve (14:39):
How many dogs do you have?
B Proud (14:40):
Two.
Brad Shreve (14:41):
My husband's a dog lover.
I love dogs, but they're toocodependent to me.
A cat will come up and cuddle,but when you toss them away,
they go away.
Mad Dogs time.
I love other people's dogs,Absolutely adore other people's
dogs.
So back to Transending LoveProject.
This time, rather than blackand white, you made a choice to
photograph in color.
(15:02):
Why did you do that?
B Proud (15:04):
It just kind of happened.
I mean, I thought I was goingto basically do.
I had been asked to do volumetwo, so I couldn't do that.
So after the 2016 election, thedoors of bigotry opened wide
and it became clear to me thatthere was more work to do and I
finally got the message that Ihad to do it.
But I was going to do it forthe community that was needed
(15:26):
the most.
So I thought I would do the samething.
I would follow the same formula, but rather than long-term
relationships, I would just gowith committed relationships
without a time factor involved,and couples and families,
because I think focusing on thelove makes it even more
acceptable.
So if you see portraits oftransgender people, that's one
(15:46):
thing, but when you see a transcouple, you see something else.
You see people that arededicated to each other, you see
them thriving, you see them inlove and I think it banners a
little bit more respect andhelps with the acceptance.
So I wanted to follow basicallythe same formula and the first
portrait I took was the transmen, the one who was very
(16:08):
pregnant and hours away fromdelivery.
I flew to Las Vegas and I tookthe photos, and when I looked at
them later, I mean I was inlove with them.
I just was like, ok, this isthe right thing to do.
But when I looked at them later, in black and white, it just
was not speaking to me and Ithink that making them in color
is absolutely the right decision, because the transgender
(16:28):
community is anything but blackand white.
It's a full spectrum of peopleand there are so many ways to be
trans, it's not just one way.
So I think that being in coloris the right thing.
Brad Shreve (16:42):
And that is the picture that really jumped out
at me for a couple of reasons.
Without having seen all thephotos, my first thought was, oh
, I bet this is the mostcontroversial in the book.
But at the same time I found itwas absolutely beautiful to me.
These two men chose to have achild and have one together.
And yeah, that baby is ready tocome out.
B Proud (17:03):
Yeah, he was having labor pains as we photographed.
Yeah, we couldn't do theinterview, they had to stop.
But I agree with you that thatpicture shocks a lot of people,
including very liberal people.
It's still jarring, but I thinkthat if people just take one
minute to look beyond that andsee the tenderness and the love
(17:24):
that's between the two of them,then that says everything.
Brad Shreve (17:28):
And that's exactly what I felt.
But I also understand people.
The world is easier tounderstand when things are black
and white.
So when you have a man who is aman and a woman who is a man,
even if they're two transgendermen, they're men, but oh, wait a
minute.
All of a sudden one's pregnantand you've just really wait a
minute.
Everything's blurry now and Idon't get that, and that's very
(17:49):
difficult for people.
It's a learning process and Ithink you've really helped with
that process.
There's a quote that isattributed to you and you can
tell me whether you made it ornot, but it is an article about
you, and here's the quote Is alesbian who becomes a trans man
and is in a relationship with acisgender woman.
Now, straight Doesn't matter.
Why do labels need to defineone of the deepest emotions on
(18:13):
the planet?
Why does love even need to beexplained?
It just is.
B Proud (18:19):
That's my quote.
Brad Shreve (18:20):
Yes, I love that quote.
Why do you think it is thatpeople care about something that
just shouldn't be theirbusiness?
B Proud (18:28):
I wish I knew.
I wish I knew.
People get very worked up aboutthings that really don't even
affect them at all.
There's no reason.
Brad Shreve (18:38):
Do you think it may have something like what I just
brought a moment ago, thatpeople like things simple?
B Proud (18:44):
Well, they fear what they don't understand.
So, yes, they like it simpleand if they don't understand it
then they want to back away fromit, and I think that's the job
is to bring it to them in a waythat they can understand it,
they can accept it a little biteasier.
And I think that, seeing manyof the couples in this
(19:06):
particular project, they looklike a straight couple.
They may look like a veryattractive straight couple and
they both may be trans, or onemay be trans or one may be
non-binary.
It's different, but they'revery beautiful people and I
think when they see that thenit's like wait what?
They look normal.
Well, as Mother FlawlessSabrina says, normal is a
(19:26):
setting on the dryer.
So what's normal?
And why can't people just lovewho they love and thrive?
You know it's so much easier toaccept and love than anger.
Anger takes a lot of energy.
Are you still looking forcouples for the project?
Yes, I mean, I keep an Excelspreadsheet that has well over
(19:50):
100 couples on it and I'vephotographed 74 of them.
Wow, it's a very expensiveproject.
So for me, I thought that itwould be the most powerful if I
could cover the most geographicdiversity, ethnic diversity, age
diversity, socioeconomicdiversity, all of that.
(20:13):
And so traveling the country,and especially to some of the
states in the middle of thecountry or the more conservative
states, I thought would beimportant to say that this isn't
just New York and San Francisco, so it's expensive and that
makes it difficult to do and Ican't really fly to Utah for one
couple.
I have to wait until theremight be three or four or five
(20:34):
couples and that way if I spendthe money to get there and they
get sick or somebody gets sick,I'm not just out of luck.
I do keep taking the names ofpeople getting them scheduled as
the hardest thing, because itdoes take three, four, five,
sometimes even longer to dothese sessions and they have to
be willing to dedicate the timefor it and some can and some
(20:55):
can't seem to do it.
Brad Shreve (20:56):
But no shortage of people that are interested.
B Proud (20:59):
No, I'll keep that list going.
I don't know when a book willhappen.
I'm working on it.
I just haven't like hit thesweet spot of knowing exactly
what.
I want to push it forward.
It's close.
Brad Shreve (21:12):
I will say this based on all the photos and
everything that you have so farwhen it does come out in book
format, it will be on my coffeetable without a doubt.
Oh great, you graduated back in1974.
And that was five years afterStonewall.
And it was also a miraculousyear in science because
overnight LGBTQ people wereinstantly cured of mental
(21:34):
illness because Americanpsychiatric session changed
their mind.
B Proud (21:38):
Thank you, Barbara Giddings.
Brad Shreve (21:41):
So I'm curious when did you come out and what was
that experience like?
B Proud (21:45):
Oh, hmm, I would say my first experiences were in high
school, so 73-ish four, and thenI still wasn't really out out.
And I wasn't out out in collegefor a while either.
It took me some time, and onceI realized my sexuality then it
(22:10):
still took a while for me toactually let the rest of my
world know that that was thecase.
And now it's great.
I mean, I teach it in an artschool and I can be very open
there, and it's wonderfulbecause I can provide a safe
space for my students to be openas well.
Brad Shreve (22:29):
Looking back at that young lady in 1974, did you
expect that day to come?
B Proud (22:34):
No, never, never.
And I never expected that wewould be allowed to be married
either and that the White Housewould be lit up in rainbow
colors.
I never, ever, ever thoughtthat would happen.
Brad Shreve (22:47):
Are there other things that you didn't expect to
see that you're seeing today?
Because we know there's somenot so good stuff going on, but
we're still way ahead of what wewere in 1974.
So what if it's some thingsthat you didn't expect to see?
B Proud (23:00):
Wow, that's a good question.
I don't know.
I think just the fact thatpeople are open now and you know
we'll walk down the streetholding hands or kiss, and now
they're on television, all overtelevision, which I think is
fantastic, I didn't know therewas many trans people as there
are, so I'm glad I know this now, but also that they will be out
(23:22):
and prevalent and fighting fortheir rights, rightly so I don't
think trans people, I don'tknow.
Brad Shreve (23:28):
I feel like anybody knew how many trans people got,
and that's the wonderful thingis that we all know that 10%
homosexual number that came outback in the 50s, I think it was.
We're learning that and peoplewere like, oh, that 10% is way
too high.
Now we're learning it'sactually low.
Yeah, what a wonderful thing.
Yeah, you made a short filmregarding Edith Windsor called
(23:50):
the Circle of Diamonds, and Iwant to toss something out
before that.
My husband, maurice, and Imarried in 2007, in June of 2007
.
That is our wedding day Now.
Legally, we got married incourthouse about two years or so
ago and I don't remember thedate and, quite honestly, I
don't give a damn.
It's not important.
It was filling out some legalpaperwork, doesn't matter to me
(24:12):
when it was and what I'm curiousabout.
You made this short film, theCircle of Diamonds, that played
in 16 film festivals.
B Proud (24:20):
More than 20 now.
Brad Shreve (24:21):
Oh, more than 20.
Okay, I was looking at oldinformation, yeah.
So why was the film important?
Who was Edith Windsor?
B Proud (24:29):
for those that don't know, Well, edith Windsor was
the deceased now, sadly, theoctogenarian that took her case
to the Supreme Court and broughtdown the first part of the
Defense of Marriage Act in the2013 decision.
So Edie and Thea were togetherfor 44 years when Thea passed
(24:52):
away and Edie was faced with avery hefty inheritance tax
because Thea was Thea and notTheo, and she just would not
accept it and she was determinedthat she was going to fight it
and everybody said, no, youcan't do that, it's too soon,
you're going to ruin everything.
(25:13):
We've got a long way to go.
And she just would not take it.
And she pushed forward and,thank goodness, and she won.
So that really laid thegroundwork for the Obergefell
decision.
Brad Shreve (25:25):
But they did get legally married in Canada in
2000.
They did Mm-hmm.
So they were at least legallymarried somewhere, even though
it wasn't recognized in theUnited States.
It wasn't recognized here yetand it's so sad.
Based on what you know, I don'tknow how close you got to know
Edith before she died ReallyWell, when did they get married
again?
B Proud (25:44):
I think it was maybe just a year-ish before Thea died
.
She was ill, she had MS.
I think that it was veryimportant for them to get
married, and so the friendshelped them do that and got them
to Canada and they were able tobe married before Thea passed.
Brad Shreve (26:05):
Based on what you know, I mean, they were
basically a married couple,regardless of what the law said
for many years Exactly.
That's why I brought up thesituation with my husband and I.
Do you think that whole themarriage in Canada was simply a
formality to acknowledgesomething to love, or was it
symbolic in something theythought was important that we
should see in the United States?
Do you have any idea?
B Proud (26:28):
I think it was important for them to
acknowledge to each other thatyou mean this much to me and I
want to promise to be yourpartner for my entire life and
for them to be able to togethercelebrate that love.
Brad Shreve (26:41):
I will say that, despite that being a very sad
story, I find it incrediblybeautiful at the same time.
So you've seen a lot of changeover the years.
In the 70s it was a difficulttime.
We had Anita and Jerry doingtheir thing and we saw some
great things happen.
And now we're seeing somechallenges, what has given you
hope to move forward.
B Proud (27:04):
Well, I think that we've made a lot of progress
over the years.
As you said, homosexuality wasa mental illness.
It's not legally consideredthat anymore.
So we keep making strides, eventhough we keep getting pushed
back, and I think that as longas we're out there and, as I
just say repeatedly, having theconversations, I think we'll
(27:26):
move forward.
That Martin Luther King'sstatement about the arc of
justice bends, or the moral arcbends towards justice.
You have to push it or pull it.
It's not just going to bend.
So you've got to not be afraidto have the conversations and I
will have them with peoplewherever I go.
In the middle of Kentucky withtwo I'm going to be
(27:48):
stereotypical now but two guysin trucker hats and flannel
shirts and beards having dinnernext to me at a bar, and they
want to know who are you and whyare you here, what are you
doing?
And I just take a deep breathand tell them and then I show
them the photographs and I watchtheir heads tilt Like what Wait
Huh?
Brad Shreve (28:10):
Planting seeds.
B Proud (28:11):
Yeah, exactly, I'm planting seeds and if you know,
when I leave I've cracked thedoor open a little bit that
they've seen something thatthey've never seen before.
In a way, they've never seen itbefore and they learned
something.
At the exhibition I just had inMay, many people came to me and
said that they learned so much,and one woman came up to be
(28:33):
crying that she lived in theneighborhood and often
frequented the gallery and shehad to go because it was
something that was verydifferent from what they ever
showed there and she wanted tosee what it was about.
And she was just crying thatthis is so amazing and so
beautiful and I learned so muchand everybody needs to see this.
Brad Shreve (28:51):
So, listen, if you want to learn one thing from
this episode, it's keep talking.
It's the greatest weapon wehave, mm-hmm, keep talking.
It absolutely is.
So be as your projects is soimportant.
Like I said, it's beautiful andI love it when art can be used
to change hearts and minds, andI see that happening with yours.
If somebody wants to donate toyour organization, where would
they go?
B Proud (29:12):
They can go to firstcomesloveorg or
transcendingloveorg.
There are two separate websites, one for each project, and
there's a link there to a placecalled Fractured Atlas, which is
our fiscal sponsor.
So what that means is thatthey're kind of the umbrella
501c3 that accepts donations,which also means that any
(29:34):
donation of any amount is taxdeductible.
Brad Shreve (29:37):
And listen.
I will have the links to thosein the show notes so they'll be
very easy for you to collect.
You can even click on them nowand still continue to hear the
rest of our conversation as wesay goodbye.
It has been a pleasure, Thankyou.
Thank you so much for all youdo.
B Proud (29:50):
Thank you.
Thank you for this opportunity.
I really appreciate it.
Brad Shreve (29:56):
When people are looking for new podcasts and
come upon choices odd or good,they'll hit play on the one with
the most reviews, especially ifthey're positive.
So please head over to ApplePodcast, iTunes or whichever app
you're using and let othersknow about where we are by
leaving a review.
This is Queer we Are.
When your medium is audio, it'sa bit tricky to bring on a
guest whose art is visual.
I mean, what do I do with aguest who is an outstanding
photographer like B Proud?
Ask you, the listener, to emailme your address so I can snail
(00:24):
mail you her portfolio?
Of course, that's ridiculous,but you'll find, while listening
to our conversation is alsounnecessary.
You'll hear enough about B'sphotos that you'll want to see
them for yourselves, but what'simportant is the why she took on
these projects she has and thatmessage is loud and clear in
her interview, with no visualaids necessary.
(00:45):
Here on Queer we Are, I haveconversations with LGBTQ people
sharing positive stories withinour community.
You know that thing that's beenin the headlines, or that
bullshit that's been going on inthat one state, and then
there's that thing that thosepeople are doing.
You won't hear that here, or atleast not much of it.
For a brief period, I cutthrough the noisy headlines
(01:05):
bombarding us every day,focusing on the good news that
isn't shared enough, and giveyour brain a break, if only for
a few minutes.
So what are B's projects?
Well, in 2014, she published amagnificent book of her photos
with LGBTQ couples with a storyabout them.
She is currently tourningexhibit that will eventually
make it to a book of its own.
(01:27):
This time around, her photosare of transgender couples, and
the photos are nothing short ofbreathtaking, and one
interesting difference betweenthe two projects is she had a
specific reason to use onlyblack and white photos in the
2014 broader LGBT communitycouples book, yet on the current
(01:48):
project with transgendercouples, she found it important
that they be in color.
Why the difference?
Listen and you'll find out.
And the good news is you don'thave to wait long to hear it,
because I am Brad Shreve and myguest is B Proud and Queer.
We Are Barbara Proud.
(02:15):
There is an old saying I don'tknow art, but I know what I like
.
Now that's typically attributedto Walt Disney and, I think,
orson Welles, but its origin islikely much older than that era.
Regardless, I think it'ssomething I think many people
can relate to and, that said,I've been looking over many,
(02:38):
many of your photographs and Ican confidently say I have been
viewing art.
Well, thank you.
Well, thank you.
It's beautiful.
Now your name is Barbara Proud,but you go by B Proud and you
have every reason to be proudbased on what, everything I've
seen and work that you're doing.
B Proud (02:56):
Thanks.
I was pretty lucky to be bornwith that name and now I just
have to live up to it.
Brad Shreve (03:02):
Well, I was going to say, is it difficult to live
up to it?
B Proud (03:06):
I'm working on it.
Brad Shreve (03:07):
It keeps down your toes.
I'm sure I'm working on it.
It's very fortuitous.
Do you keep it in your mindwhen you do things?
Absolutely Wonderful, I thinkI'd be, from this point forward.
Okay, we're going to discussthe Transunding Love Project
that you're currently working on, but first I've got to ask you
more of a mainstream question,because President Obama and Lady
(03:27):
Gaga you photographed them onthe same day, which is quite an
honor.
You showed us how respectedyour work is.
What is the story behind that?
B Proud (03:37):
Well, actually I've photographed for the Human
Rights Campaign for decades andnumerous capacities from still
life, commercial stuff, retailthings to their national dinners
and some of the regionaldinners.
So I photographed the nationaldinners.
Brad Shreve (03:52):
And the Girl Scouts and the Girl Scouts.
I like to say them because Ilove the Girl Scouts.
B Proud (03:58):
And so they were both scheduled to be at a Human
Rights Campaign national dinnertogether Actually one event, but
they were both there.
And then Lady Gaga there was amarch the next day, and she was
also a speaker at the march, soI got to make some more
photographs of her.
Brad Shreve (04:13):
So you and they were all at the right place at
the right time, exactly theright threesome, exactly Along
with 3,000 other people.
A great trifecta.
I want to get in depth aboutthe Transcending Love Project in
a bit.
I want to talk about thegenesis, but before we get to
that, just give us a briefdescription of what the
Transcending Love Project isbefore we get into it deeper
(04:34):
later.
B Proud (04:35):
I like to call it a celebration of transgender and
gender nonconforming couples andfamilies across the country,
and it's just a way for me totry to offer to the world the
humanistic side of a communitythat has been thrown under the
bus forever, to try to make avery palatable, easily
(04:57):
digestible vision of people thatare normally in many people's
minds.
A trans person is a man in adress and that's as far as it
goes.
So people don't know thatthey've even met a trans person,
and they may very well have,they may very well work next to
one, but they have a vision intheir mind and, with all the
hatred and bigotry going onright now against that community
, I think that showing thebeauty and the full humanity of
(05:20):
this community is reallyimportant.
Brad Shreve (05:23):
I will say work like yours is very important and
I have a family member, deepreligious, and whenever a trans
person would come on televisionyou can tell that's a man in a
way and things like that, andhad a long discussion with her
several times about someindividuals are able to have a
more feminine look and thereforeyou would look at them and
wouldn't say that and othersdon't have that type of build
(05:45):
and it doesn't change the factthat they are a woman or they
are a man, you know whichever.
And it took a while, but shegets it now.
Oh great, she not only gets it,she respects it.
Good for you.
People do change, no matter howmuch people want to think,
people do change.
B Proud (05:58):
Well, in order to change, we have to have the
conversations, and that's whatmy work is about, too, is having
those conversations.
Brad Shreve (06:06):
Exactly, I said I wanted to go back to the Genesis
and that's why I want to talkabout your portraits of enduring
LGBTQ relationships.
That's the prequel totranscending love and that was
published back in 2014.
And it's not lost on me thatthat was a year before the
Supreme Court Obergefell versusHodges.
Right, and forgive me if I getthat wrong, but basically
(06:27):
marriage equality became the lawof the land.
What was the impetus to do that?
B Proud (06:32):
It was kind of a culmination of things, or I say
a domino effect of many thingsthat just coincided at the same
time, beginning with the monthbefore President Obama's
election.
In October, my then partner,now wife, and I celebrated our
20th anniversary and on that daywe became the longest surviving
couple in our families.
(06:52):
So they're in my family.
A few had passed away so hadseparated it till death to his
part, but in others were all ontheir second, third and fourth
tries at marriage.
But they had all the rights.
They had 1,148 more rights thanwe did instantly.
Yeah, we were the picture ofstability and we were accepted
(07:13):
by our families for sure.
We were the pets-itters, we'rethe godparents to all the nieces
and nephews, we were the eldercare, we were powers of attorney
, we were executors of wills.
We were even executors of theexes wills.
So we're just the stable couple, yet we don't get the rights.
And that was really wearing onme.
And then President Obama waselected.
(07:33):
At the same time, Proposition A8passed in California, as well
as a few other hateful measuresin Arkansas and other states,
and it just, for me, was the tipof the iceberg, the straw that
broke the camel's back.
Whatever it is I just I hadenough, and at the same time, we
also had a great economicdecline and I lost a lot of work
(07:55):
.
So I decided I would make myown work and that I would do
something completely differentfrom what I had been doing.
I had my commercial work, but Ialso photographed personally in
a very different way, and Idecided that when I teach my
students, I tell them that theirart is their voice.
And I decided that I had towalk the walk and that I would
try to use my photography tomake a difference and to show a
(08:16):
different way of looking at acommunity that, again, people
don't understand.
The media would always portraythe LGBTQ community in pride,
marches or protests and scantilyclad men and with bellow
scarves and so forth, and that'snot who we are.
That's who we are, you knowlike.
Maybe for 30 days in the yearwe celebrate, but the rest of
the time we're paying the billsand buying cars and going to
(08:39):
college and raising kids and allthose other things.
And I wanted the people to knowthat, and so I decided I would
strip away all of the rainbowimagery and make black and white
environmental portraits so youwould see the space that people
were inhabiting and hopefullythat would lend another level of
understanding.
(09:00):
And I would just ask people tolook at the heart and soul of
the subjects and who they are aspeople and that if you get to
know someone it's a whole loteasier to accept them.
If you know somebody and youlike, oh they're okay, well,
they're gay, but oh well, that'sall right, they're good people,
and I was trying to get to thatpoint.
I thought also that each of theportraits is accompanied by a
(09:22):
story, so I decided I was goingto learn video and teach myself
video so that I could interviewthe couples and then I would
have film footage plus I couldhave it transcribed, so I
wouldn't have to take a lot ofnotes and I could write the text
that would go next to theportraits.
Brad Shreve (09:38):
And I love that you did in black and white.
They're gorgeous.
And listen to explain the book.
It's one page, that's a couplein black and white and
photographs are just beautiful,and then just one page a brief
description of who they are.
Is that correct?
B Proud (09:51):
Yeah it fills the page mostly, but talks about who they
are as people and what it'slike to be together, what makes
their relationship thrive andwhat sort of obstacles they've
overcome in order to be togetherfor any number of years.
My premise was we're alreadyliving for decades ostensibly as
married, just without therights.
We have to spend a lot of moneyon legal documents to protect
(10:14):
us that other people don't haveto do, but we're living just
like they are.
Brad Shreve (10:19):
And it's interesting that Prop 8 and some
of the other lies I've passedare what motivated you to do
this, because in a sense, Ithink that really made a
difference and really helped tomake a change.
You mentioned pride parades andI love to participate them and
I love to go over the top, butbefore I came out, I really
resented them because I didn'twant to be a woman.
(10:41):
I didn't understand transpeople at all, or now I look
back and boy, I was ignorant andI also didn't want to wear a
gold thong and dance on a float,so I didn't connect with that
at all.
Now, coming out, I love it, butI think your choice to do that
in black and white was a verysmart move for many people to
(11:01):
see the real person.
B Proud (11:03):
Yeah, I'm, black and white is classic photography and
it just in a way I don't wantto say it's more emotional, but
you get to the heart and thesoul of the people without other
distractions.
I say that now, buttranscending love is in color.
Brad Shreve (11:17):
Well, and we're going to get to why.
There's a reason why he choseto do that.
The day before the decision wasmade, it was announced that
there's going to be a march inLong Beach and the march will
either be a celebration or aprotest, and unfortunately, as
you know, it turned out to be aprotest.
But what made me feel reallygood about it is it wasn't a
(11:37):
parade, it wasn't a festival.
It was people angry and theywere out in numbers unbelievable
.
So it's that pendulum, likeokay, you just did this to us,
and now we're really pissed offand we're motivated.
B Proud (11:52):
Yeah, in New York now there's a counter march to the
Pride march because the Pridemarch has become so corporate
that a lot of people I forgetwhat the name of it is, but
they've gone back to theoriginal reason for the march
and it happens separately andit's much more a protest.
Brad Shreve (12:09):
Yeah, and you know what?
I don't mind the corporationscatering to the LGBTQ community.
I think it's much better thanback when they ignored us and it
acknowledges that they knowthat we are a buying power.
But I do agree it's got alittle overboard that you go to
a Pride parade and it's AT&T andevery major corporation going
by and occasionally you'll seesome organization waving their
(12:31):
hand that there needs to be abalance.
I'm glad they're there, butthat they're acknowledges,
regardless of what theirpolicies are the rest of the
year.
At least they're seeing thatwe're getting their attention.
B Proud (12:41):
Yeah, and I get to see people wearing my name on their
shirt all over the place.
Brad Shreve (12:50):
Well, that must be your favorite time of year if
you have an ego.
B Proud (12:55):
That's pretty funny.
Brad Shreve (13:01):
It's critical.
People know what's going on andread the headlines, which
typically, though, focus on thestruggles we face.
It's important, but, forSandy's sake, we need to hear
the good stuff too, and there'smore of it than you may think.
My goal is to present thebright side of life to LGBTQ
people.
I think it's important.
If you do, too, please tell afriend about Queer.
(13:22):
We are telling them inconversation is great, but one
simple way is to share thisepisode or any of the others
easily.
You can do it right there inyour app.
You get that grimace off thatsomeone's face and let them know
where to find the good stuff.
Send them here to Queer we are.
You're talking about theexhibits that you have, and you
(13:47):
are married with your wife,allison, and Delaware, and
you're an adjunct professor inPhiladelphia.
You go on all these tours.
You do commercial photography,you do artistic photography.
Where do you find the time forall of this?
B Proud (14:00):
It's not easy, that's for sure, but you just make it
happen.
I've got a super supportivewife who has always had my back
through this process, even whenduring first comes love I had.
My mother and my aunt were bothin their 90s and ended up
having to be having to have alot of care and Allison would
(14:20):
just say go do what you have todo.
I've got this, so that's superimportant and we have a beach
house now, so we get to go awayand just kind of chill.
Brad Shreve (14:30):
So what does Bee do , though, when Bee needs to shut
down and give time to herself?
B Proud (14:34):
I'd be with my family and my dogs.
I love my dogs so much.
Brad Shreve (14:39):
How many dogs do you have?
B Proud (14:40):
Two.
Brad Shreve (14:41):
My husband's a dog lover.
I love dogs, but they're toocodependent to me.
A cat will come up and cuddle,but when you toss them away,
they go away.
Mad Dogs time.
I love other people's dogs,Absolutely adore other people's
dogs.
So back to Transending LoveProject.
This time, rather than blackand white, you made a choice to
photograph in color.
(15:02):
Why did you do that?
B Proud (15:04):
It just kind of happened.
I mean, I thought I was goingto basically do.
I had been asked to do volumetwo, so I couldn't do that.
So after the 2016 election, thedoors of bigotry opened wide
and it became clear to me thatthere was more work to do and I
finally got the message that Ihad to do it.
But I was going to do it forthe community that was needed
(15:26):
the most.
So I thought I would do the samething.
I would follow the same formula, but rather than long-term
relationships, I would just gowith committed relationships
without a time factor involved,and couples and families,
because I think focusing on thelove makes it even more
acceptable.
So if you see portraits oftransgender people, that's one
(15:46):
thing, but when you see a transcouple, you see something else.
You see people that arededicated to each other, you see
them thriving, you see them inlove and I think it banners a
little bit more respect andhelps with the acceptance.
So I wanted to follow basicallythe same formula and the first
portrait I took was the transmen, the one who was very
(16:08):
pregnant and hours away fromdelivery.
I flew to Las Vegas and I tookthe photos, and when I looked at
them later, I mean I was inlove with them.
I just was like, ok, this isthe right thing to do.
But when I looked at them later, in black and white, it just
was not speaking to me and Ithink that making them in color
is absolutely the right decision, because the transgender
(16:28):
community is anything but blackand white.
It's a full spectrum of peopleand there are so many ways to be
trans, it's not just one way.
So I think that being in coloris the right thing.
Brad Shreve (16:42):
And that is the picture that really jumped out
at me for a couple of reasons.
Without having seen all thephotos, my first thought was, oh
, I bet this is the mostcontroversial in the book.
But at the same time I found itwas absolutely beautiful to me.
These two men chose to have achild and have one together.
And yeah, that baby is ready tocome out.
B Proud (17:03):
Yeah, he was having labor pains as we photographed.
Yeah, we couldn't do theinterview, they had to stop.
But I agree with you that thatpicture shocks a lot of people,
including very liberal people.
It's still jarring, but I thinkthat if people just take one
minute to look beyond that andsee the tenderness and the love
(17:24):
that's between the two of them,then that says everything.
Brad Shreve (17:28):
And that's exactly what I felt.
But I also understand people.
The world is easier tounderstand when things are black
and white.
So when you have a man who is aman and a woman who is a man,
even if they're two transgendermen, they're men, but oh, wait a
minute.
All of a sudden one's pregnantand you've just really wait a
minute.
Everything's blurry now and Idon't get that, and that's very
(17:49):
difficult for people.
It's a learning process and Ithink you've really helped with
that process.
There's a quote that isattributed to you and you can
tell me whether you made it ornot, but it is an article about
you, and here's the quote Is alesbian who becomes a trans man
and is in a relationship with acisgender woman.
Now, straight Doesn't matter.
Why do labels need to defineone of the deepest emotions on
(18:13):
the planet?
Why does love even need to beexplained?
It just is.
B Proud (18:19):
That's my quote.
Brad Shreve (18:20):
Yes, I love that quote.
Why do you think it is thatpeople care about something that
just shouldn't be theirbusiness?
B Proud (18:28):
I wish I knew.
I wish I knew.
People get very worked up aboutthings that really don't even
affect them at all.
There's no reason.
Brad Shreve (18:38):
Do you think it may have something like what I just
brought a moment ago, thatpeople like things simple?
B Proud (18:44):
Well, they fear what they don't understand.
So, yes, they like it simpleand if they don't understand it
then they want to back away fromit, and I think that's the job
is to bring it to them in a waythat they can understand it,
they can accept it a little biteasier.
And I think that, seeing manyof the couples in this
(19:06):
particular project, they looklike a straight couple.
They may look like a veryattractive straight couple and
they both may be trans, or onemay be trans or one may be
non-binary.
It's different, but they'revery beautiful people and I
think when they see that thenit's like wait what?
They look normal.
Well, as Mother FlawlessSabrina says, normal is a
(19:26):
setting on the dryer.
So what's normal?
And why can't people just lovewho they love and thrive?
You know it's so much easier toaccept and love than anger.
Anger takes a lot of energy.
Are you still looking forcouples for the project?
Yes, I mean, I keep an Excelspreadsheet that has well over
(19:50):
100 couples on it and I'vephotographed 74 of them.
Wow, it's a very expensiveproject.
So for me, I thought that itwould be the most powerful if I
could cover the most geographicdiversity, ethnic diversity, age
diversity, socioeconomicdiversity, all of that.
(20:13):
And so traveling the country,and especially to some of the
states in the middle of thecountry or the more conservative
states, I thought would beimportant to say that this isn't
just New York and San Francisco, so it's expensive and that
makes it difficult to do and Ican't really fly to Utah for one
couple.
I have to wait until theremight be three or four or five
(20:34):
couples and that way if I spendthe money to get there and they
get sick or somebody gets sick,I'm not just out of luck.
I do keep taking the names ofpeople getting them scheduled as
the hardest thing, because itdoes take three, four, five,
sometimes even longer to dothese sessions and they have to
be willing to dedicate the timefor it and some can and some
(20:55):
can't seem to do it.
Brad Shreve (20:56):
But no shortage of people that are interested.
B Proud (20:59):
No, I'll keep that list going.
I don't know when a book willhappen.
I'm working on it.
I just haven't like hit thesweet spot of knowing exactly
what.
I want to push it forward.
It's close.
Brad Shreve (21:12):
I will say this based on all the photos and
everything that you have so farwhen it does come out in book
format, it will be on my coffeetable without a doubt.
Oh great, you graduated back in1974.
And that was five years afterStonewall.
And it was also a miraculousyear in science because
overnight LGBTQ people wereinstantly cured of mental
(21:34):
illness because Americanpsychiatric session changed
their mind.
B Proud (21:38):
Thank you, Barbara Giddings.
Brad Shreve (21:41):
So I'm curious when did you come out and what was
that experience like?
B Proud (21:45):
Oh, hmm, I would say my first experiences were in high
school, so 73-ish four, and thenI still wasn't really out out.
And I wasn't out out in collegefor a while either.
It took me some time, and onceI realized my sexuality then it
(22:10):
still took a while for me toactually let the rest of my
world know that that was thecase.
And now it's great.
I mean, I teach it in an artschool and I can be very open
there, and it's wonderfulbecause I can provide a safe
space for my students to be openas well.
Brad Shreve (22:29):
Looking back at that young lady in 1974, did you
expect that day to come?
B Proud (22:34):
No, never, never.
And I never expected that wewould be allowed to be married
either and that the White Housewould be lit up in rainbow
colors.
I never, ever, ever thoughtthat would happen.
Brad Shreve (22:47):
Are there other things that you didn't expect to
see that you're seeing today?
Because we know there's somenot so good stuff going on, but
we're still way ahead of what wewere in 1974.
So what if it's some thingsthat you didn't expect to see?
B Proud (23:00):
Wow, that's a good question.
I don't know.
I think just the fact thatpeople are open now and you know
we'll walk down the streetholding hands or kiss, and now
they're on television, all overtelevision, which I think is
fantastic, I didn't know therewas many trans people as there
are, so I'm glad I know this now, but also that they will be out
(23:22):
and prevalent and fighting fortheir rights, rightly so I don't
think trans people, I don'tknow.
Brad Shreve (23:28):
I feel like anybody knew how many trans people got,
and that's the wonderful thingis that we all know that 10%
homosexual number that came outback in the 50s, I think it was.
We're learning that and peoplewere like, oh, that 10% is way
too high.
Now we're learning it'sactually low.
Yeah, what a wonderful thing.
Yeah, you made a short filmregarding Edith Windsor called
(23:50):
the Circle of Diamonds, and Iwant to toss something out
before that.
My husband, maurice, and Imarried in 2007, in June of 2007
.
That is our wedding day Now.
Legally, we got married incourthouse about two years or so
ago and I don't remember thedate and, quite honestly, I
don't give a damn.
It's not important.
It was filling out some legalpaperwork, doesn't matter to me
(24:12):
when it was and what I'm curiousabout.
You made this short film, theCircle of Diamonds, that played
in 16 film festivals.
B Proud (24:20):
More than 20 now.
Brad Shreve (24:21):
Oh, more than 20.
Okay, I was looking at oldinformation, yeah.
So why was the film important?
Who was Edith Windsor?
B Proud (24:29):
for those that don't know, Well, edith Windsor was
the deceased now, sadly, theoctogenarian that took her case
to the Supreme Court and broughtdown the first part of the
Defense of Marriage Act in the2013 decision.
So Edie and Thea were togetherfor 44 years when Thea passed
(24:52):
away and Edie was faced with avery hefty inheritance tax
because Thea was Thea and notTheo, and she just would not
accept it and she was determinedthat she was going to fight it
and everybody said, no, youcan't do that, it's too soon,
you're going to ruin everything.
(25:13):
We've got a long way to go.
And she just would not take it.
And she pushed forward and,thank goodness, and she won.
So that really laid thegroundwork for the Obergefell
decision.
Brad Shreve (25:25):
But they did get legally married in Canada in
2000.
They did Mm-hmm.
So they were at least legallymarried somewhere, even though
it wasn't recognized in theUnited States.
It wasn't recognized here yetand it's so sad.
Based on what you know, I don'tknow how close you got to know
Edith before she died ReallyWell, when did they get married
again?
B Proud (25:44):
I think it was maybe just a year-ish before Thea died
.
She was ill, she had MS.
I think that it was veryimportant for them to get
married, and so the friendshelped them do that and got them
to Canada and they were able tobe married before Thea passed.
Brad Shreve (26:05):
Based on what you know, I mean, they were
basically a married couple,regardless of what the law said
for many years Exactly.
That's why I brought up thesituation with my husband and I.
Do you think that whole themarriage in Canada was simply a
formality to acknowledgesomething to love, or was it
symbolic in something theythought was important that we
should see in the United States?
Do you have any idea?
B Proud (26:28):
I think it was important for them to
acknowledge to each other thatyou mean this much to me and I
want to promise to be yourpartner for my entire life and
for them to be able to togethercelebrate that love.
Brad Shreve (26:41):
I will say that, despite that being a very sad
story, I find it incrediblybeautiful at the same time.
So you've seen a lot of changeover the years.
In the 70s it was a difficulttime.
We had Anita and Jerry doingtheir thing and we saw some
great things happen.
And now we're seeing somechallenges, what has given you
hope to move forward.
B Proud (27:04):
Well, I think that we've made a lot of progress
over the years.
As you said, homosexuality wasa mental illness.
It's not legally consideredthat anymore.
So we keep making strides, eventhough we keep getting pushed
back, and I think that as longas we're out there and, as I
just say repeatedly, having theconversations, I think we'll
(27:26):
move forward.
That Martin Luther King'sstatement about the arc of
justice bends, or the moral arcbends towards justice.
You have to push it or pull it.
It's not just going to bend.
So you've got to not be afraidto have the conversations and I
will have them with peoplewherever I go.
In the middle of Kentucky withtwo I'm going to be
(27:48):
stereotypical now but two guysin trucker hats and flannel
shirts and beards having dinnernext to me at a bar, and they
want to know who are you and whyare you here, what are you
doing?
And I just take a deep breathand tell them and then I show
them the photographs and I watchtheir heads tilt Like what Wait
Huh?
Brad Shreve (28:10):
Planting seeds.
B Proud (28:11):
Yeah, exactly, I'm planting seeds and if you know,
when I leave I've cracked thedoor open a little bit that
they've seen something thatthey've never seen before.
In a way, they've never seen itbefore and they learned
something.
At the exhibition I just had inMay, many people came to me and
said that they learned so much,and one woman came up to be
(28:33):
crying that she lived in theneighborhood and often
frequented the gallery and shehad to go because it was
something that was verydifferent from what they ever
showed there and she wanted tosee what it was about.
And she was just crying thatthis is so amazing and so
beautiful and I learned so muchand everybody needs to see this.
Brad Shreve (28:51):
So, listen, if you want to learn one thing from
this episode, it's keep talking.
It's the greatest weapon wehave, mm-hmm, keep talking.
It absolutely is.
So be as your projects is soimportant.
Like I said, it's beautiful andI love it when art can be used
to change hearts and minds, andI see that happening with yours.
If somebody wants to donate toyour organization, where would
they go?
B Proud (29:12):
They can go to firstcomesloveorg or
transcendingloveorg.
There are two separate websites, one for each project, and
there's a link there to a placecalled Fractured Atlas, which is
our fiscal sponsor.
So what that means is thatthey're kind of the umbrella
501c3 that accepts donations,which also means that any
(29:34):
donation of any amount is taxdeductible.
Brad Shreve (29:37):
And listen.
I will have the links to thosein the show notes so they'll be
very easy for you to collect.
You can even click on them nowand still continue to hear the
rest of our conversation as wesay goodbye.
It has been a pleasure, Thankyou.
Thank you so much for all youdo.
B Proud (29:50):
Thank you.
Thank you for this opportunity.
I really appreciate it.
Brad Shreve (29:56):
When people are looking for new podcasts and
come upon choices odd or good,they'll hit play on the one with
the most reviews, especially ifthey're positive.
So please head over to ApplePodcast, iTunes or whichever app
you're using and let othersknow about where we are by
leaving a review.
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