June 19, 2024 • 45 mins
Today I speak with Queer Couple Experts, Ash and Dawn Noble who have helped many queer couples with their relationships. We don't often have models of how to navigate things as queer couples- and that's where these two come in! Because weddings are such a unique and often stressful time, I wanted to hear their expert advice on how to navigate the stresses of wedding planning and also how to encourage and uplift one another.
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The intro and all instrumentals were written, sung and recorded by @JaynaDavisMusic
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Queerly Beloved, welcome back tothis week's episode.
(00:03):
I have Dawn and Ash with mehere, and I have been watching
them from afar on the internetfor so long, so I'm so excited
to have them here.
And I would love to just passthe mic right off to you two,
have you two introduce yourselfand your pronouns, and then
maybe share a little bit aboutwhat you do.
(00:26):
Yeah, my name is Ash Noble.
Pronouns are she, her.
Yeah, I'm Dawn Noble.
She, her.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we we work together workingwith queer couples in our, we
specifically do a 10 weekprogram for queer couples that
want to build a really safe andsecure relationship together.
Yeah.
(00:46):
Yeah.
I mean, that is what we do.
Yeah, we've been doing running agroup program with queer couples
for the last year and a halfnow.
And so, but working with queercouples much longer than that,
but, yeah, helping them buildsafety and security.
That is so beautiful and soneeded, I think, in a world that
(01:09):
is still very heteronormativeand.
There's not always, like, thesame level of resources for, for
queer couples as there are for,like, their straight
counterparts.
So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also, I mean, just queerrepresentation.
So many queer couples don'thave, other relationships to
(01:32):
really look to as a model ofsafety and security.
And so we're here to help kindof lead the way and and show
people how to do that.
Yeah, I think it's true.
Yeah, that is good.
And just for the, the folks whodon't know.
You two are married andcongratulations on your one
(01:56):
year.
That's amazing.
Would you mind sharing just likehow you two met and a little bit
about you?
Oh my God.
Are you ready for some lesbiandrama?
A real lesbian story here.
We, we kind of collided in a waywhere We were married previously
to different partners and ourwives at the time ended up in an
(02:18):
affair together.
Yeah, yeah, it was the kind ofpeak of COVID.
And, and we lived in differentstates they ended up meeting
online.
My wife and I my wife, it was atherapist at the time and
(02:38):
offered built like a, a Facebooksupport group for non affirming,
you know, family and friends forqueer couples.
Well, for queer couples with nota family.
Yeah.
Oh, sure.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, yeah Ash and her wife atthe time attended that.
And so they ended up in afriendship and then, you know,
over the time things happened.
(02:59):
So, after the separation.
Of our marriages, we ended upkind of putting the story
together and finding each other.
And yeah, we fell in love.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's wild.
We connected and we were like,wow, we're really good fit.
This is weird.
How is this possible?
Yeah.
(03:19):
Yeah, we have a, we have apodcast that we put out a couple
of years ago, just kind of forour own journey of telling the
story of it all.
If you want all the details,it's there.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
I can definitely put it in theshow notes.
Yeah.
Talk about like a silver liningout of a messy situation.
(03:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely lean into the one.
Yeah, that's so true.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, let's keep talkingabout the things that you do a
little bit.
So did you to like, at whatpoint in your relationship?
Did you kind of start?
Putting things out there forother couples.
Yeah, I had been doing it for awhile, probably for a number of
(04:06):
years.
Really wanting to relationshipsjust became kind of an obsession
for me and how to do queerrelationship.
Well, like Ash was saying, noneof us have models.
I'm like, if you think of anyother profession or like an
artist or athlete.
We have people that were like,wow, I want to, I want to play
like them, or I want to do itlike them.
(04:27):
But if you think of a couple, aqueer couple, like, What are
they doing and how do they havethat kind of relationship?
Most of us can't even think ofone, one model, you know?
And so, especially how hard we,we work and how much we lose to
be in these relationships in aqueer community, then you get in
it and it can be hard.
And, and and so I really wantedto be able to teach couples how
(04:52):
to be in a Really securerelationship together.
And so I was doing it.
And so when Ash and I gottogether, you know, going
through our own grief process,the loss of our marriages.
And we kind of came together andrealized we have a united vision
with this.
And so, starting with our ownrelationship and then wanting to
(05:13):
support others.
Yeah.
And I was really focused onrelationship with the self.
That was something that I leanedreally heavily into toward the
end of my previous marriage, butafter that marriage fell apart I
just completely dove into allthings nervous system and
(05:35):
learning about my own body andbuilding this relationship here
and wanted to be able to helpother people.
People be able to do that aswell.
And so, yeah, I started workingone on one with queer queer
women.
And then we ended up workingtogether and combining, so yeah.
(05:56):
Caring for the relationship forthe couple and for the
individual as well, and thatrelationship.
So yeah, it's been a wholejourney.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds like it.
Are there any things that feelreally important to you too, and
how you approach and run yourpractice?
(06:20):
Yeah, I mean, gosh well, onething that I think is so
different with us and how we runour practice is, thank you, I
got hair in my mouth.
Good looking out.
Yeah.
Is that we're, we're heavilyskills based and really trying
to pass skills on to couples tointegrate into the relationship
(06:44):
and learn how to do itdifferently.
That.
And like I was saying just amoment ago, we lean into caring
for the couple and caring forthe individual relationship.
We have a lot of clients andcouples that we work with who
ask that question, you know,should I do individual work?
Like, do I need to heal myselffirst before I can be in a
(07:04):
relationship or, or othercouples who think they have to,
Feel within the relationshipthat they can't do it on their
own.
And we know that we really needboth both really matter.
And so, yeah, a couple of thingsthat.
Yeah, we focus on, yeah, veryskilled based and then we're
trained in a, a psychobiological approach.
(07:26):
So it's very I was trained by DrStan tack and who developed the
model pact.
It's a science based approachbased upon, like, how the.
Body and nervous system respondto threat and connection within
our primary relationships.
And so teaching couples, like,you know, we think that love is
enough like, oh, we love eachother.
(07:47):
We've never felt this way.
We gave up everything to betogether.
And in reality, the things thatreally create security is
feeling safe and securetogether.
And so those moments of what dowe do when we're both triggered.
Or activated.
Or activated.
How do we protect ourrelationship from the world?
(08:08):
How do we, you know, makedecisions together and our
differences, differentattachment styles.
So we teach couples based uponthis model.
Mm-Hmm.
how to do that together as acouple versus turning on each
other.
Yeah.
You know, going to war.
Yeah, that is so great.
Like, you're not, of course, Ithink we all need, like, spaces
(08:31):
to, like, talk and have peoplelisten, but, like, to actually
be giving people, like, toolsthat they can put into a
toolbox.
Like, that is.
That is amazing.
So yes, on top of all the gays,thank you for your service.
Yeah, yeah, I know.
We got, we have so many coupleswho are like, you know, just
(08:51):
communicating feels hard.
Right.
And so really leaning into thoseskills, offering scripts to
offering scripts to couples andtry this out and what it would
feel like to respond this way iswe have found has been really
impactful.
Follen.
Incredibly helpful for, yeah, Iwould, I would say one of the
things that we drive home thatwe really value is with couples
(09:15):
work, like traditional couplestherapy, we can tend to get
stuck on talking about what'snot working and why your partner
is the difficult one.
Like, why do they do that?
Why did you say that, you know,and spending all this time on,
like, working on each otherinstead of working on the
problem in a collaborative way.
(09:35):
And so we are like, okay, howcan we fully equip you to have
these skills and no one taughtyou as a couple so you don't
have to stay in therapy forever,or, you know, what to do when
things come up like that'sthat's really what we try to go
heavy lean into.
Awesome.
Yeah, and I mean, this will be.
One of many plugs, I'm sure.
(09:57):
But these two have a TikTok andan Instagram and they post very
like.
Helpful educational videos, andyou two do a really, really good
job at like showing veryspecific scenarios and kind of
walking people through them.
So, I would love today to talkspecifically about weddings.
(10:17):
Yeah.
I think, as we all know, like,weddings can be a really, really
stressful thing, just like, ingeneral, across the board, but I
think, also, queer couples faceunique challenges on top of
that, you know, whether it be,you know, fear of reaching out
to vendors or things with theirfamilies, or Coming out, you
(10:39):
know, there's just like so manyextra layers and so, yeah, let's
talk about weddings are therethat couples can kind of manage
their stress around, yeah, howto manage the stress around the
weddings.
Yeah, because the pressure is onyou feel it.
I mean, it's financial pressure.
(11:00):
It's like you said, like,reaching out to vendors and not
knowing.
Are they queer friendly, right?
Or, you know, inviting it's theguest list too.
I mean, there's so many layersto it all.
And so it's really importantthat the couple has each other
to really rely on when thepressure comes on during this
season.
(11:21):
I think that.
When a couple is under stress,the wedding is 1 example, but
there's going to be lots ofexamples, like, lots, the
wedding will just represent, youknow, and give us information on
how well we know each other andhow we care for each other under
stress.
And that's going to be the mostimportant things for couples as
(11:41):
they move in together or plan awedding or have a baby.
That's where we really seeerrors happen with stress
because we think we know eachother, but then when we're under
stress, we realize we reallydon't because how do I, when my
partner's struggling, how, howwell do I know them and how well
can I bring them relief and helpthem feel cared for and known
(12:05):
and when I'm totally different,you know, I have different.
So, I think that I think this isreally good information for
couples to move through andlearn about themselves.
We just went through this and wewere talking about a year ago,
what stressors were we goingthrough as a couple planning our
wedding?
And one of them just in the Aswe experienced in like the queer
(12:26):
experience was family that amajority of them were very
supportive and, and advocatesand had our backs that were I
was, we both were raised, wouldyou say in a religious
upbringings?
Yeah, you were heavilyreligious.
I was raised Mormon.
Yeah.
And I was raised Methodist.
Yeah.
And so.
Christian Light.
(12:47):
I like Very true.
Very true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's funny.
Yeah.
Christian Light That was a, thatwas a tough one for us, and it
had to manage that family, that,that wasn't gonna show up.
So there's like a, there was agrief.
In the excitement that we had tocare for, both were present.
(13:10):
Yeah.
And unfortunately that really,that that's something that a lot
of you know, queer couples wework with experience as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's one thing toyou know, you move into this
season planning a wedding andyou might know, or have an idea
of, you know, I've beenestranged from this family
member for a while.
(13:30):
But it's 1 thing to know it andanticipate it and expect it and
another to actually move throughit.
And so 1 of those stressors alsobeing like, you know, caring for
a stressor and creating room forgrief to come up around the
actual processing of that andgoing through the event of it.
Yeah.
It's huge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(13:50):
You know, when I'm thinkingabout stress.
With a couple in a going througha wedding building.
Oh, sorry.
We're going to call in.
There we go.
A lot of couples in those, youknow, you have a date in all
these things that have tohappen.
And it's something that we cando that can cause this kind of
dangerous, but a mindset we canget in is let's just get through
(14:11):
it.
Let's just, let's just get tothe day.
Let's get married and we'llfigure this out.
And what I want to say in thatmoment.
That the stress that we're underand how we treat each other and
care for each other is going tofollow you, whether it's the
wedding or something else.
So we want to prioritize thatstress and how we move through
(14:31):
as a couple.
As like the most importantthing, like, okay, we're both
stressed.
How can we come together as acouple and care for each other
better fully resourced togetherinstead of just managing
different stressors alone.
Right?
Because we all handle stressdifferently.
Yes.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
(14:52):
Makes sense.
Yeah.
And so, like, practicallyspeaking, could an example of
that be like, asking yourpartner, like, what things are
you stressed about and how can Ihelp you navigate that?
Or how would you say, like,practically that?
(15:13):
Yeah, I, well, what would yousay first?
I feel like I'm chatting a lotand talking a lot.
Well.
You and I, what we did from thevery beginning was we kind of
split things up, knowing thatthere were really like,
difficult things to deal withthe financial aspect, you know,
the stressor of finances andwanting to have your own plan
and budget around that.
(15:33):
But also you know, the guestlist and other other aspects, we
checked in with each other andasked, what would be.
Better for you, right?
In terms of what would you liketo take on?
What would you like to carry?
How can we care for each otherin this?
And we checked in with eachother.
I think that's a big thing is,is checking in with your partner
(15:56):
throughout the process.
Yeah, and.
How are you doing with this?
How, how is this feeling foryou?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I think theacknowledgement and just being
able to say like, Hey, I can seewe're both really struggling
here.
We're both really stressed.
And keep it to the, we, insteadof, I can see you're struggling
and you are stressed.
Like, Hey, let's sit down andfigure this out.
(16:17):
Like this really matters to bothof us.
And I want this to be a reallylovely experience, but it is
stressful for us.
So how can, What could we dothat would help each other move
through this better, likesitting down together and not
waiting till like the end of theweek on, on date night, or, you
know, when you have a chance toget away, we want to care for
(16:39):
each other in the day to day.
And I would say like stayingcurious about your partner's
experience.
Cause I think, well, not, it'snot, I think we, I know we can,
you know, Automate our partnersand we can start to move through
life.
Like we just know them, right.
And we lose that sense ofcuriosity around who you are,
(17:01):
what this is like for you.
And so staying curious aboutthat and open to your partner's
experiences.
So, I mean, that was incrediblyhelpful for me.
You checking in with me andwanting to know.
Yeah, rather than assuming thatI had it.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah, that is yeah, that isamazing.
(17:24):
Where did you have anyconversations as far as like.
Okay, it gets to the actualwedding day and like, you know,
I'm going to give you a look ifI'm feeling stressed or I need a
moment.
Or did you have any kind ofconversations as far as like,
when things sort of happened inthe midst of everything or like
on the day of.
(17:45):
Well, I mean, we planned, weplanned day for us to connect
that morning and spend timetogether that way we could
really back in with 1 another.
Yeah, oh, I was thinking.
I was thinking, was there signs,but if, if those things should
be happening in, in all thedays, if, if we're not doing it
(18:08):
in the days leading up the dayof the wedding, when things are
under, like, the most, you know,anticipation and expectation,
right?
Busy day, you want to be able towe always say, like, you want to
protect each other in public andin private, like, they are your
number 1 and so, by the weddingdate.
You know, hopefully we've beenpracticing and caring for these
(18:32):
skills where we could see kindof how each other are doing and
how we would respond to it, whatthey might need the dance, the
dance where everybody waslooking at us was, I was
terrified.
I thought, oh, my God, I amgonna and that was when the ash
was looking forward to the most,you know, and so in it, we were
(18:53):
able to, you know.
Like, she cared for me so wellin my discomfort while we were
dancing by like, just whisperingin my ear, like, you got this.
I'm with you.
We're going to move throughthis.
And so it was, and so she wasable to care for me and help me
stay more present in the dance.
While she also that was a reallyimportant moment for her.
(19:15):
Yeah, I, I, that was a really,that was a really beautiful
moment where I felt like we, weboth really cared for each other
and that but we had, you know,like you said, it's like, we had
these conversations in the daysand wasn't just about The
wedding day itself.
It was everything before that,but also really getting curious
(19:36):
with each other around like,Hey, are there any parts of this
that you're nervous about, orthat's freaking you out a little
bit, or that you'reuncomfortable with or and so I
knew the dance was going to be.
Something that was hard for Dawnand she was leaning into it
cause she knew that I was reallylooking forward to it.
And so, yeah, I, yeah, I mean,for me, it was like, it was just
(19:59):
us on that moment.
But yeah, I wanted you to know,like you're safe here because it
was, it was really helpful.
That's the ultimate feelingthough, in that moment, like, is
you not, you weren't feelinglike, okay.
I'm on display.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
I just started tearing up.
That was so sweet.
(20:20):
Oh my gosh.
So it sounds like you are sayinga little bit that there should
be plenty of practice ahead oftime, including like sort of
just how to like read yourpartner and like.
Understand sort of, you know,what they're saying, or maybe
(20:41):
even what they're trying to,like, non verbally.
Express even.
Is that accurate?
Yeah.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
we teach that a lot.
That is a, a big thing that weteach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We always say like, we're ineach other's care.
Yeah.
Like, we are going to care foreach other.
And if we treat each otherpoorly or we're ignoring signs
(21:03):
we see, or just taking care ofourself and then on the wedding
day we're like, oh, we made it.
Let's be nice to each other andput on a good show.
And, you know, it's.
And it's empty and yeah, I don'tknow.
Yeah.
So it, it matters in the waythat we treat each other,
especially under stress.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
(21:27):
And what about this sort of justpopped into my mind.
So let me know.
Yeah, but I think that there's alot of instances on wedding days
where.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, both people in thecouple can be stressed at the
same time, right?
Like, you know, maybe theweather is really bad and
(21:48):
they're, like, starting tobecome stressed about, like,
where the ceremony is going tobe or the timelines behind or,
you know, things that.
Get them both at the same time.
Yeah.
What would you say to that?
I mean, I think 1 thing for uswas we knew, like, at the end of
the day, we're going to bemarried, like, and we're going
(22:10):
to, we're going to allowourselves to flow.
Like, we can't controleverything.
There are some things that weknow we can't control.
There are other things we knowthat we can't and we're going
to, at the end of the day, wejust want to be married.
That's the most important thing.
For an aspect of it, but yeah,we kept calling ourselves the
easy breezy brides.
Easy breezy brides, that's likea mantra.
When one of us would be grumpypants, we'd be like, hey, let's
(22:32):
be easy breezy.
Yeah.
But I think that is part of itis knowing like, Some things
mattered more to ash was morestressful and other things to
me.
And so knowing, like, how, whatdo I know about my partner that
could care for that anxiousnessand not say, hey, it's going to
be fine.
Don't worry about it, whichwould not reach her at all.
(22:52):
She would that would make herfeel not very understood.
Right?
But knowing like, Hey, if theweather's bad, or if she's where
the photographer is not going toshow up in time or, or whatever,
there's a way that I feel like Icould care for that and respond
to her specifically.
That would have been soothingcomforting that and also knowing
(23:13):
like we get access to eachother.
At all times.
So if at any point throughoutthe day, even though we want,
ideally we want to get readyseparately and not see each
other until the ceremony, wedidn't do a first look for our
wedding, but that was ourchoice.
But even though we wanted to getready separately you know,
there's this, I knew that if Ineeded to reach Dawn that I
(23:33):
could like, if, if all hellbroke loose and I was losing it
and I was an anxious mess, Iknew I could reach her.
And we had also written eachother letters the day of, so, we
got to exchange those, whichbrought a sense of relief to me
moving through the day as wewere getting ready, it felt like
(23:54):
you were caring for me, evenwhile you weren't physically
there.
Yeah.
Yeah, and she had peoplechecking on me online.
Oh, yeah, I feel like she wouldsend her brothers or, you know,
whoever to go check on Ash.
She's, yeah, she's doing, I dothe same for her.
Yeah, so, yeah, in my world,nothing matters.
No event, no, nothing more than.
(24:17):
Ash feeling protected and andsafe and that I have her back no
matter what, like, no, 1 isgoing to advocate or protect her
chauffeur more than more thanme.
And I'm going to get excellentat that.
So, and we offer that to eachother, that's something that
that we really is reallyimportant to us.
Yeah.
(24:38):
Yeah, I think having that, like,really buoyed us throughout the
day, you know, throughout thewedding day where we knew we had
each other's back.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
Oh, my goodness, keep making metear up.
So beautiful, but I mean, itsounds like that ties really
well into what you were sayingof, like, you also have to be
(25:02):
practicing ahead of time,knowing that you have each other
and knowing that, you know,Almost like there's, there's no
scarcity in terms of like youshowing up for each other or
being in each other's presence.
Like having that practice oflike, knowing they're there too.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And 1 thing I think weexperienced just going through,
(25:23):
like, as a queer couple roles isa really thing that's undefined.
As like a header presentingcouple, there's some, Almost
expectations that you seeculturally.
And so for, for queer couplesand for us, we entered into the
planning of the wedding as like,Hey, what, what matters to you?
(25:45):
And what do you feel like youwant to do here?
As the last thing that we wantedwas to feel like one person was
over functioning in the work, inplanning it, or that it mattered
more to them than the other.
And so we were able to sit downand be like, what, You're really
good at like seeing a vision andputting it together.
I, I can do this other piece.
(26:06):
Does that work for you?
And like finding ways to do ittogether and checking in, Hey,
is this still working for youwith what we agreed to?
Yeah.
That was a big thing.
Yeah.
It was really representative.
I'm just like coming up rightnow, but like we got to co
create this really beautifulwedding that we got to make
(26:27):
ours, you know, and.
We got to break whatevertraditions or norms that may
have been expected, you know,and, and do what we wanted.
And that's what we do for ourrelationship to, you know, like
we co create the relationshipthat we want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I think that's, I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's brilliant.
(26:47):
Yeah, are we answering yourquestions?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, this is great.
And, and yeah, I, I totallyagree.
I think that is something, youknow, that's kind of also a
silver lining about queerweddings is that you're right.
Like, there isn't like, thereisn't a lot, like people sort of
(27:10):
see them as Untraditionalalready, so it like lends itself
well to couples and sort of beable to be like, okay, we're not
doing this, but we are going todo this.
And I think to just kind ofgoing back to, like.
The both being stressed at thesame time, I have heard, like,
couples say that they will sortof have, like, a little.
(27:32):
Like something that they mightsay to each other, whether it's
when they're both stressed, ormaybe it's like, if they're in
the middle of an argument like,I know I have a, a couple that
if they were both starting tofeel it, they would just like,
look at each other and say,we're a team.
Yeah, and that sort of, so.
(27:53):
Yeah, yeah.
We, things like that.
We, yeah, the, we're a team orwe remind each other a lot, like
just, I mean, like day to daystuff where it's like, Hey,
we're going to get through this.
Like, it's okay.
You know, this might feel reallytough right now, but you and I,
we've made it through so manythings before.
We're going to get through thistoo.
(28:13):
We have a really good trackrecord or yeah, it's, it's you
and me and we're a team hereand.
Well, it's not.
Let's not turn on each other.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We remind each other of thatpretty back to the, we, the
couple.
Yes.
But I, I think that this is areally important skill for
couples is noticing thosemoments when your partner or you
(28:36):
are starting to kind ofdysregulate, feel anxious, shut
down.
Right.
When that happens, we're goingto attune to it and care for it.
We're not going to bypass it.
I'm not going to just be like,hey, let's just get through this
and then and then we can connectand talk about it.
It's like, no, this matters whenand if we can slow down and care
(28:57):
for each other, we're We canmove through this better
version, you know, weddingsbring up a lot of scary things,
you know, I mean, shoot, even ifyou're not queer weddings, bring
up a lot of scary things, butwhen you throw the queer
experience on top of that, thereare a lot of threats that lie
lie around the corner that, thatpop up that we want to be able
(29:19):
to care for really well for oneanother.
And I think it can be easy tolook at it on the surface and be
like, this isn't a big deal.
Like.
Whatever, brush it off, youknow, like, let's keep moving,
but we really need to learn howto care for those moments.
Well, with 1 within 1 another.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, those moments arereally important.
(29:41):
That's it.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And of course, yeah, weddingsare stressful, but they're not
all stressful.
Like there's, you know, othergood things to There are many
wonderful things.
Yeah.
Yes yeah, in the sphere of that,I'm curious, like, what are some
(30:05):
good ways that couples can,like, encourage each other and
uplift each other when they're,you know, both in the planning
process and, and kind of the dayof, too?
We were talking about thisbefore we hopped on here, like,
how do you encourage each other?
And I think one of the mostimportant things is, like, Just
in in the preparation in all thedoing and all the planning is
(30:26):
acknowledging what each otherare doing.
Like, God, thanks so much forhiring that.
Finding those flowers.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to give so much detail to
the invitations.
I would have butchered it youknow, just.
Constant acknowledgement andcare and that really keeps us
out of automating each otherlike, hey, this was your task
(30:48):
and this is what you said you'ddo.
So good job doing it.
Like, it is.
It's the day to day moment bymoment care and acknowledgement
of what you both are managing.
Well, it's seeing each other tolike, and acknowledging what
your partner is doing.
It's helping each other feelbetter.
Seen in our relationship, like,well, I'm actually existing
here.
Yeah.
(31:08):
And we talk with couples too, alot about just in the day to day
with relationships that we wantto acknowledge these things.
Thank you so much for, you know,picking up the kids or whatever
it was, or taking care of thekitchen or feeding the pets or
whatever it might be.
We always thought we alwaysencourage our couples to do this
as well, but it feeds in intothis moment too, with, with.
(31:31):
Acknowledging it's a practice.
It's a, it's part of a practiceof care and, and not taking your
partner for granted what they'redoing.
I mean, the amount of work thatAsh did for our wedding.
I would have had to pay someonea lot of money to do that, you
know, like she created somethingtogether.
(31:51):
We created something incredible,but the piece that ash brought,
I could have never done.
I didn't have the skills or theawareness.
And so we really tried to justconstantly.
Acknowledge that with each otherand same with you, like there
were parts that Don covered thatI'm like, I would have had to
pay somebody a lot of money tocover that part for me.
And so it's huge.
(32:12):
Yeah, it's huge.
Yeah.
So I think, yeah, in terms ofuplifting one another, like just
acknowledging what the other isdoing and how it's really
benefiting you and impactingyour life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, really acknowledging eachother's strengths.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(32:33):
Yeah.
Cool.
And also, you know, I think agood, like, Hey, you look really
hot today, you know, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hear a lot of that in theacknowledgement of care.
I think it's important.
To acknowledge any grief or lossthat's coming up, like Ash and I
(32:55):
had been married before.
And so getting remarried wasreminding us and bringing up so
many memories of our previouswedding or, or relationship we
had.
And so really caring for that,any excitement, checking in,
like, how are you doing?
Or do you have space for me toshare about this memory?
I had with the last time I gotmarried.
(33:16):
That was a really big thing forus to be able to hold space for
both.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
I've got, I've got two previousmarriages under my belt.
So that was a really big thingthat came up for, for me.
I mean, we're speaking to now Iwas married.
My first marriage was with a manand Jay had come out in that
(33:38):
marriage and my second marriagewith a woman.
And so getting married for athird time came with, I mean, it
was very loaded.
There were lots of parts, Imean, beautiful parts that I
loved.
And then hard parts too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm really glad that youbrought that up because I think.
(34:01):
As you mentioned, like, kind ofacknowledging both is a, is a
very frequent thing that I talkwith couples about, you know,
like, whether parents aren'tcoming because they don't agree
or, you know, I think just ingeneral, family and friends not
coming because they don'tsupport it is a really, really
tough thing for people to haveto deal with on a day like that
(34:23):
as well.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Our wedding because of that wasa really reparative event for
us.
Primarily the 1st time I went, Igot married.
2 members came and 13 siblingsof a big family and 2 came.
(34:43):
So, this, this time that we, Ashand I were together and we're
getting married.
My parents were there.
A number of my siblings werethere.
Her family flew in from Oklahomato Oregon.
Like it was such a beautifulreparative experience.
And yeah, it was, it was biggerthan just a ceremony.
Just a wedding.
(35:04):
Which was big in and of itself,but I mean, it wasn't just, it
was loaded.
It was really layered withimportance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And since, yeah, you two have awealth of knowledge and wisdom
and experience now being in, inyour own marriage.
(35:28):
I'm just kind of curious as wewrap up, if there's anything
that you want to share orencourage the couples that are
listening today with.
I think, I think that we haveenough research and information
that the relationship needs tobe the number 1 most important
thing, not as like a romanticidea, but because of the quality
(35:50):
of life that we see.
When that happens and thatdoesn't mean to neglect work,
family, kids, but reallyprioritize what does it look
like for us as a couple comingtogether, building our own
culture, how can we prioritizethis relationship and protect it
more than anything and a bigpart of that is finding
(36:12):
relationships, friendships thatare pro couple that are for us
together and not just for me.
Okay.
Not just for Ash and that theyare not equals.
Our friends, our, our bestfriends for life or our family
are not equals to our partner.
We are the priority.
We are the top of the chainhere, and we will, we will
(36:34):
protect this relationshiptogether.
Yeah.
When we do well, everything elsegets to benefit in our life.
Because.
We're taking care of this sourceright here.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
That.
And also staying curious aboutthe other and their experience
and really getting to know yourpartner and particularly, I
(36:55):
would say what dysregulation oractivation is like for them,
that way you can get really goodat catching onto those moments
and showing up for them.
When they really need it.
Yeah.
What like, when I'm thinkingabout like advice or wisdom, I,
one thing that happens is we getinto these relationships and
we're coming with a history withrelationship, whether it's from
(37:18):
our parents or whoever raised usor previous partners.
And once we see our partner ispermanent, we, we can load all
that history onto them and havean expectation.
And that's that they will.
You know, we're on the lookoutfor those things to happen to us
again, and the opportunity wehave together can actually heal
(37:39):
past trauma, you know, if I'mreactive or jealous, or I shut
down with sharp tone andconflict, like, all of that can
be.
Cared for and healed.
So what I what action I say islike, hey, I didn't cause this
trauma or this reaction, but I'mgoing to learn to care for it.
I'm going to get really good atcaring for these moments that I
(38:00):
wish I had been there for, youknow, and I'm not going to say
that's your stuff.
You need to figure it out ordon't bring that here.
I'm going to.
Learn how to care for it andsoothe it because together we
can heal.
Yeah.
I like to think of it too.
When we get into those momentswhere, you know, you've shared
with me stories from your pastand I don't know if you relate
(38:23):
to this, but you know, when youhear stories from your partner,
you know, where they've beenharmed or somebody didn't show
up for them, like it's almost.
Like, you just want to go andprotect them and care for them.
I wish I could have been there.
So it didn't go that way foryou.
And so in those moments whereyou're activated, like, I really
tried to like, shift it to whereI, it's like, this is the part
(38:48):
that's coming up.
It's historical.
Right.
It's the past is beingsuperimposed on the present
right now is what's actuallyhappening.
And so this is my moment.
And my opportunity is yourloving partner to get to show up
for you and care for you in away that you didn't get and you
absolutely deserved back then.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I'm so good.
(39:10):
Oh, my God.
You two are so wise.
Wow.
I, I'm really glad you mentionedthat part too about just like,
kind of how your relationship isthe priority because, you know,
Obviously, I think that's soimportant, just like across the
board.
But as we're talking aboutweddings, I think that would be
(39:32):
such a helpful thing for couplesto remember because I feel like
if they could carry that mindsetinto their day, like, I feel
like so many couples wouldleave.
With like such a betterexperience if they were like
truly able to be like, hey todayis about us and like Taking care
of each other having fun witheach other and then like I just
(39:54):
feel like that would change theexperience for so many You know
instead of having to be like,well, my mom really wants us to
do this, you know random thingbut That stresses me out, but
like, can we have a conversationthen and just take it like that?
Oh, yeah Yeah, the couple is toppriority mom can have you know,
(40:19):
mom can have their opinionthat's okay But it doesn't mean
we need to take it, you know,okay if mom's disappointed it's
oh, that's one thing.
Yes Permission to disappoint mompermission to disappoint dad or
grandma or whoever it is You donot need to show up and make
sure they're good on thatspecifically on that day, right?
(40:41):
But I mean, especially not aboveyourself or your partner,
especially that you havepermission to disappoint them.
They will, they can survivethat.
It's okay.
Yeah.
Wow.
That is a, that is a mic dropmoment right there.
Yeah, we had to remind ourselvesof that at times too, just with
(41:03):
different things.
Not so much.
Oh yeah.
That could be like podcast parttwo boundaries.
Yeah, honestly.
It's so true.
I think that's something thateveryone struggles with on their
wedding.
Cause I think.
There's just like, so much ofthe nature of a wedding that
feels people feel like they aredoing it for other people, which
(41:24):
is not always necessarily bad.
But yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe part 2 is in our futuresometime.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great questions.
Yeah, that's really.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, and thank you to both somuch.
If people here are listening andthey're interested in, in
(41:47):
working on their relationshipwith you, yeah, work with you.
Yeah, yeah, we, we found thebest way to support people in an
intimate way is through reachingpeople through just social media
right now.
So, tick tock Instagram there'san app.
There's a link in our bio toapply to work with us for a 10
(42:08):
week program.
We're also going to be.
Launching a queer couples coursethat the interactive course they
can do together on their ownself pace in the next couple of
months here.
So, yeah, we're really excitedabout that one.
Yeah, we're hoping to reach.
I mean, we can only reach somany people when we're working
with them 1 on 1.
That is just.
(42:30):
Our passion and our love butwe're hoping to reach so many
other queer couples through,through this program we're about
to launch.
And so, yeah, yeah, it's goingto be a very skill based, like,
how do we communicate?
How do we conflict?
Well, how do we repair quickly?
It's going to be very specific.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've had fun creating it.
Oh, my gosh.
(42:51):
That is amazing.
I can't wait to see that.
And I will make sure to put allof your social links in the show
notes.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Yeah.
That sounds great.
That's awesome.
Thanks Anna.
Yeah.
Thank you both so, so much forsharing your time and your
wisdom.
I know that there's a lot ofcouples who have already
(43:11):
benefited so much, and, and ourlittle corner today are gonna
benefit a lot too, so thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks for having us on andreaching out.
Absolutely.
This is a great topic.
Queerly Beloved, welcome back tothis week's episode.
(00:03):
I have Dawn and Ash with mehere, and I have been watching
them from afar on the internetfor so long, so I'm so excited
to have them here.
And I would love to just passthe mic right off to you two,
have you two introduce yourselfand your pronouns, and then
maybe share a little bit aboutwhat you do.
(00:26):
Yeah, my name is Ash Noble.
Pronouns are she, her.
Yeah, I'm Dawn Noble.
She, her.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we we work together workingwith queer couples in our, we
specifically do a 10 weekprogram for queer couples that
want to build a really safe andsecure relationship together.
Yeah.
(00:46):
Yeah.
I mean, that is what we do.
Yeah, we've been doing running agroup program with queer couples
for the last year and a halfnow.
And so, but working with queercouples much longer than that,
but, yeah, helping them buildsafety and security.
That is so beautiful and soneeded, I think, in a world that
(01:09):
is still very heteronormativeand.
There's not always, like, thesame level of resources for, for
queer couples as there are for,like, their straight
counterparts.
So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also, I mean, just queerrepresentation.
So many queer couples don'thave, other relationships to
(01:32):
really look to as a model ofsafety and security.
And so we're here to help kindof lead the way and and show
people how to do that.
Yeah, I think it's true.
Yeah, that is good.
And just for the, the folks whodon't know.
You two are married andcongratulations on your one
(01:56):
year.
That's amazing.
Would you mind sharing just likehow you two met and a little bit
about you?
Oh my God.
Are you ready for some lesbiandrama?
A real lesbian story here.
We, we kind of collided in a waywhere We were married previously
to different partners and ourwives at the time ended up in an
(02:18):
affair together.
Yeah, yeah, it was the kind ofpeak of COVID.
And, and we lived in differentstates they ended up meeting
online.
My wife and I my wife, it was atherapist at the time and
(02:38):
offered built like a, a Facebooksupport group for non affirming,
you know, family and friends forqueer couples.
Well, for queer couples with nota family.
Yeah.
Oh, sure.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, yeah Ash and her wife atthe time attended that.
And so they ended up in afriendship and then, you know,
over the time things happened.
(02:59):
So, after the separation.
Of our marriages, we ended upkind of putting the story
together and finding each other.
And yeah, we fell in love.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's wild.
We connected and we were like,wow, we're really good fit.
This is weird.
How is this possible?
Yeah.
(03:19):
Yeah, we have a, we have apodcast that we put out a couple
of years ago, just kind of forour own journey of telling the
story of it all.
If you want all the details,it's there.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
I can definitely put it in theshow notes.
Yeah.
Talk about like a silver liningout of a messy situation.
(03:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely lean into the one.
Yeah, that's so true.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, let's keep talkingabout the things that you do a
little bit.
So did you to like, at whatpoint in your relationship?
Did you kind of start?
Putting things out there forother couples.
Yeah, I had been doing it for awhile, probably for a number of
(04:06):
years.
Really wanting to relationshipsjust became kind of an obsession
for me and how to do queerrelationship.
Well, like Ash was saying, noneof us have models.
I'm like, if you think of anyother profession or like an
artist or athlete.
We have people that were like,wow, I want to, I want to play
like them, or I want to do itlike them.
(04:27):
But if you think of a couple, aqueer couple, like, What are
they doing and how do they havethat kind of relationship?
Most of us can't even think ofone, one model, you know?
And so, especially how hard we,we work and how much we lose to
be in these relationships in aqueer community, then you get in
it and it can be hard.
And, and and so I really wantedto be able to teach couples how
(04:52):
to be in a Really securerelationship together.
And so I was doing it.
And so when Ash and I gottogether, you know, going
through our own grief process,the loss of our marriages.
And we kind of came together andrealized we have a united vision
with this.
And so, starting with our ownrelationship and then wanting to
(05:13):
support others.
Yeah.
And I was really focused onrelationship with the self.
That was something that I leanedreally heavily into toward the
end of my previous marriage, butafter that marriage fell apart I
just completely dove into allthings nervous system and
(05:35):
learning about my own body andbuilding this relationship here
and wanted to be able to helpother people.
People be able to do that aswell.
And so, yeah, I started workingone on one with queer queer
women.
And then we ended up workingtogether and combining, so yeah.
(05:56):
Caring for the relationship forthe couple and for the
individual as well, and thatrelationship.
So yeah, it's been a wholejourney.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds like it.
Are there any things that feelreally important to you too, and
how you approach and run yourpractice?
(06:20):
Yeah, I mean, gosh well, onething that I think is so
different with us and how we runour practice is, thank you, I
got hair in my mouth.
Good looking out.
Yeah.
Is that we're, we're heavilyskills based and really trying
to pass skills on to couples tointegrate into the relationship
(06:44):
and learn how to do itdifferently.
That.
And like I was saying just amoment ago, we lean into caring
for the couple and caring forthe individual relationship.
We have a lot of clients andcouples that we work with who
ask that question, you know,should I do individual work?
Like, do I need to heal myselffirst before I can be in a
(07:04):
relationship or, or othercouples who think they have to,
Feel within the relationshipthat they can't do it on their
own.
And we know that we really needboth both really matter.
And so, yeah, a couple of thingsthat.
Yeah, we focus on, yeah, veryskilled based and then we're
trained in a, a psychobiological approach.
(07:26):
So it's very I was trained by DrStan tack and who developed the
model pact.
It's a science based approachbased upon, like, how the.
Body and nervous system respondto threat and connection within
our primary relationships.
And so teaching couples, like,you know, we think that love is
enough like, oh, we love eachother.
(07:47):
We've never felt this way.
We gave up everything to betogether.
And in reality, the things thatreally create security is
feeling safe and securetogether.
And so those moments of what dowe do when we're both triggered.
Or activated.
Or activated.
How do we protect ourrelationship from the world?
(08:08):
How do we, you know, makedecisions together and our
differences, differentattachment styles.
So we teach couples based uponthis model.
Mm-Hmm.
how to do that together as acouple versus turning on each
other.
Yeah.
You know, going to war.
Yeah, that is so great.
Like, you're not, of course, Ithink we all need, like, spaces
(08:31):
to, like, talk and have peoplelisten, but, like, to actually
be giving people, like, toolsthat they can put into a
toolbox.
Like, that is.
That is amazing.
So yes, on top of all the gays,thank you for your service.
Yeah, yeah, I know.
We got, we have so many coupleswho are like, you know, just
(08:51):
communicating feels hard.
Right.
And so really leaning into thoseskills, offering scripts to
offering scripts to couples andtry this out and what it would
feel like to respond this way iswe have found has been really
impactful.
Follen.
Incredibly helpful for, yeah, Iwould, I would say one of the
things that we drive home thatwe really value is with couples
(09:15):
work, like traditional couplestherapy, we can tend to get
stuck on talking about what'snot working and why your partner
is the difficult one.
Like, why do they do that?
Why did you say that, you know,and spending all this time on,
like, working on each otherinstead of working on the
problem in a collaborative way.
(09:35):
And so we are like, okay, howcan we fully equip you to have
these skills and no one taughtyou as a couple so you don't
have to stay in therapy forever,or, you know, what to do when
things come up like that'sthat's really what we try to go
heavy lean into.
Awesome.
Yeah, and I mean, this will be.
One of many plugs, I'm sure.
(09:57):
But these two have a TikTok andan Instagram and they post very
like.
Helpful educational videos, andyou two do a really, really good
job at like showing veryspecific scenarios and kind of
walking people through them.
So, I would love today to talkspecifically about weddings.
(10:17):
Yeah.
I think, as we all know, like,weddings can be a really, really
stressful thing, just like, ingeneral, across the board, but I
think, also, queer couples faceunique challenges on top of
that, you know, whether it be,you know, fear of reaching out
to vendors or things with theirfamilies, or Coming out, you
(10:39):
know, there's just like so manyextra layers and so, yeah, let's
talk about weddings are therethat couples can kind of manage
their stress around, yeah, howto manage the stress around the
weddings.
Yeah, because the pressure is onyou feel it.
I mean, it's financial pressure.
(11:00):
It's like you said, like,reaching out to vendors and not
knowing.
Are they queer friendly, right?
Or, you know, inviting it's theguest list too.
I mean, there's so many layersto it all.
And so it's really importantthat the couple has each other
to really rely on when thepressure comes on during this
season.
(11:21):
I think that.
When a couple is under stress,the wedding is 1 example, but
there's going to be lots ofexamples, like, lots, the
wedding will just represent, youknow, and give us information on
how well we know each other andhow we care for each other under
stress.
And that's going to be the mostimportant things for couples as
(11:41):
they move in together or plan awedding or have a baby.
That's where we really seeerrors happen with stress
because we think we know eachother, but then when we're under
stress, we realize we reallydon't because how do I, when my
partner's struggling, how, howwell do I know them and how well
can I bring them relief and helpthem feel cared for and known
(12:05):
and when I'm totally different,you know, I have different.
So, I think that I think this isreally good information for
couples to move through andlearn about themselves.
We just went through this and wewere talking about a year ago,
what stressors were we goingthrough as a couple planning our
wedding?
And one of them just in the Aswe experienced in like the queer
(12:26):
experience was family that amajority of them were very
supportive and, and advocatesand had our backs that were I
was, we both were raised, wouldyou say in a religious
upbringings?
Yeah, you were heavilyreligious.
I was raised Mormon.
Yeah.
And I was raised Methodist.
Yeah.
And so.
Christian Light.
(12:47):
I like Very true.
Very true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's funny.
Yeah.
Christian Light That was a, thatwas a tough one for us, and it
had to manage that family, that,that wasn't gonna show up.
So there's like a, there was agrief.
In the excitement that we had tocare for, both were present.
(13:10):
Yeah.
And unfortunately that really,that that's something that a lot
of you know, queer couples wework with experience as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's one thing toyou know, you move into this
season planning a wedding andyou might know, or have an idea
of, you know, I've beenestranged from this family
member for a while.
(13:30):
But it's 1 thing to know it andanticipate it and expect it and
another to actually move throughit.
And so 1 of those stressors alsobeing like, you know, caring for
a stressor and creating room forgrief to come up around the
actual processing of that andgoing through the event of it.
Yeah.
It's huge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(13:50):
You know, when I'm thinkingabout stress.
With a couple in a going througha wedding building.
Oh, sorry.
We're going to call in.
There we go.
A lot of couples in those, youknow, you have a date in all
these things that have tohappen.
And it's something that we cando that can cause this kind of
dangerous, but a mindset we canget in is let's just get through
(14:11):
it.
Let's just, let's just get tothe day.
Let's get married and we'llfigure this out.
And what I want to say in thatmoment.
That the stress that we're underand how we treat each other and
care for each other is going tofollow you, whether it's the
wedding or something else.
So we want to prioritize thatstress and how we move through
(14:31):
as a couple.
As like the most importantthing, like, okay, we're both
stressed.
How can we come together as acouple and care for each other
better fully resourced togetherinstead of just managing
different stressors alone.
Right?
Because we all handle stressdifferently.
Yes.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
(14:52):
Makes sense.
Yeah.
And so, like, practicallyspeaking, could an example of
that be like, asking yourpartner, like, what things are
you stressed about and how can Ihelp you navigate that?
Or how would you say, like,practically that?
(15:13):
Yeah, I, well, what would yousay first?
I feel like I'm chatting a lotand talking a lot.
Well.
You and I, what we did from thevery beginning was we kind of
split things up, knowing thatthere were really like,
difficult things to deal withthe financial aspect, you know,
the stressor of finances andwanting to have your own plan
and budget around that.
(15:33):
But also you know, the guestlist and other other aspects, we
checked in with each other andasked, what would be.
Better for you, right?
In terms of what would you liketo take on?
What would you like to carry?
How can we care for each otherin this?
And we checked in with eachother.
I think that's a big thing is,is checking in with your partner
(15:56):
throughout the process.
Yeah, and.
How are you doing with this?
How, how is this feeling foryou?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, I think theacknowledgement and just being
able to say like, Hey, I can seewe're both really struggling
here.
We're both really stressed.
And keep it to the, we, insteadof, I can see you're struggling
and you are stressed.
Like, Hey, let's sit down andfigure this out.
(16:17):
Like this really matters to bothof us.
And I want this to be a reallylovely experience, but it is
stressful for us.
So how can, What could we dothat would help each other move
through this better, likesitting down together and not
waiting till like the end of theweek on, on date night, or, you
know, when you have a chance toget away, we want to care for
(16:39):
each other in the day to day.
And I would say like stayingcurious about your partner's
experience.
Cause I think, well, not, it'snot, I think we, I know we can,
you know, Automate our partnersand we can start to move through
life.
Like we just know them, right.
And we lose that sense ofcuriosity around who you are,
(17:01):
what this is like for you.
And so staying curious aboutthat and open to your partner's
experiences.
So, I mean, that was incrediblyhelpful for me.
You checking in with me andwanting to know.
Yeah, rather than assuming thatI had it.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah, that is yeah, that isamazing.
(17:24):
Where did you have anyconversations as far as like.
Okay, it gets to the actualwedding day and like, you know,
I'm going to give you a look ifI'm feeling stressed or I need a
moment.
Or did you have any kind ofconversations as far as like,
when things sort of happened inthe midst of everything or like
on the day of.
(17:45):
Well, I mean, we planned, weplanned day for us to connect
that morning and spend timetogether that way we could
really back in with 1 another.
Yeah, oh, I was thinking.
I was thinking, was there signs,but if, if those things should
be happening in, in all thedays, if, if we're not doing it
(18:08):
in the days leading up the dayof the wedding, when things are
under, like, the most, you know,anticipation and expectation,
right?
Busy day, you want to be able towe always say, like, you want to
protect each other in public andin private, like, they are your
number 1 and so, by the weddingdate.
You know, hopefully we've beenpracticing and caring for these
(18:32):
skills where we could see kindof how each other are doing and
how we would respond to it, whatthey might need the dance, the
dance where everybody waslooking at us was, I was
terrified.
I thought, oh, my God, I amgonna and that was when the ash
was looking forward to the most,you know, and so in it, we were
(18:53):
able to, you know.
Like, she cared for me so wellin my discomfort while we were
dancing by like, just whisperingin my ear, like, you got this.
I'm with you.
We're going to move throughthis.
And so it was, and so she wasable to care for me and help me
stay more present in the dance.
While she also that was a reallyimportant moment for her.
(19:15):
Yeah, I, I, that was a really,that was a really beautiful
moment where I felt like we, weboth really cared for each other
and that but we had, you know,like you said, it's like, we had
these conversations in the daysand wasn't just about The
wedding day itself.
It was everything before that,but also really getting curious
(19:36):
with each other around like,Hey, are there any parts of this
that you're nervous about, orthat's freaking you out a little
bit, or that you'reuncomfortable with or and so I
knew the dance was going to be.
Something that was hard for Dawnand she was leaning into it
cause she knew that I was reallylooking forward to it.
And so, yeah, I, yeah, I mean,for me, it was like, it was just
(19:59):
us on that moment.
But yeah, I wanted you to know,like you're safe here because it
was, it was really helpful.
That's the ultimate feelingthough, in that moment, like, is
you not, you weren't feelinglike, okay.
I'm on display.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
I just started tearing up.
That was so sweet.
(20:20):
Oh my gosh.
So it sounds like you are sayinga little bit that there should
be plenty of practice ahead oftime, including like sort of
just how to like read yourpartner and like.
Understand sort of, you know,what they're saying, or maybe
(20:41):
even what they're trying to,like, non verbally.
Express even.
Is that accurate?
Yeah.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
we teach that a lot.
That is a, a big thing that weteach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We always say like, we're ineach other's care.
Yeah.
Like, we are going to care foreach other.
And if we treat each otherpoorly or we're ignoring signs
(21:03):
we see, or just taking care ofourself and then on the wedding
day we're like, oh, we made it.
Let's be nice to each other andput on a good show.
And, you know, it's.
And it's empty and yeah, I don'tknow.
Yeah.
So it, it matters in the waythat we treat each other,
especially under stress.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
(21:27):
And what about this sort of justpopped into my mind.
So let me know.
Yeah, but I think that there's alot of instances on wedding days
where.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, both people in thecouple can be stressed at the
same time, right?
Like, you know, maybe theweather is really bad and
(21:48):
they're, like, starting tobecome stressed about, like,
where the ceremony is going tobe or the timelines behind or,
you know, things that.
Get them both at the same time.
Yeah.
What would you say to that?
I mean, I think 1 thing for uswas we knew, like, at the end of
the day, we're going to bemarried, like, and we're going
(22:10):
to, we're going to allowourselves to flow.
Like, we can't controleverything.
There are some things that weknow we can't control.
There are other things we knowthat we can't and we're going
to, at the end of the day, wejust want to be married.
That's the most important thing.
For an aspect of it, but yeah,we kept calling ourselves the
easy breezy brides.
Easy breezy brides, that's likea mantra.
When one of us would be grumpypants, we'd be like, hey, let's
(22:32):
be easy breezy.
Yeah.
But I think that is part of itis knowing like, Some things
mattered more to ash was morestressful and other things to
me.
And so knowing, like, how, whatdo I know about my partner that
could care for that anxiousnessand not say, hey, it's going to
be fine.
Don't worry about it, whichwould not reach her at all.
(22:52):
She would that would make herfeel not very understood.
Right?
But knowing like, Hey, if theweather's bad, or if she's where
the photographer is not going toshow up in time or, or whatever,
there's a way that I feel like Icould care for that and respond
to her specifically.
That would have been soothingcomforting that and also knowing
(23:13):
like we get access to eachother.
At all times.
So if at any point throughoutthe day, even though we want,
ideally we want to get readyseparately and not see each
other until the ceremony, wedidn't do a first look for our
wedding, but that was ourchoice.
But even though we wanted to getready separately you know,
there's this, I knew that if Ineeded to reach Dawn that I
(23:33):
could like, if, if all hellbroke loose and I was losing it
and I was an anxious mess, Iknew I could reach her.
And we had also written eachother letters the day of, so, we
got to exchange those, whichbrought a sense of relief to me
moving through the day as wewere getting ready, it felt like
(23:54):
you were caring for me, evenwhile you weren't physically
there.
Yeah.
Yeah, and she had peoplechecking on me online.
Oh, yeah, I feel like she wouldsend her brothers or, you know,
whoever to go check on Ash.
She's, yeah, she's doing, I dothe same for her.
Yeah, so, yeah, in my world,nothing matters.
No event, no, nothing more than.
(24:17):
Ash feeling protected and andsafe and that I have her back no
matter what, like, no, 1 isgoing to advocate or protect her
chauffeur more than more thanme.
And I'm going to get excellentat that.
So, and we offer that to eachother, that's something that
that we really is reallyimportant to us.
Yeah.
(24:38):
Yeah, I think having that, like,really buoyed us throughout the
day, you know, throughout thewedding day where we knew we had
each other's back.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
Oh, my goodness, keep making metear up.
So beautiful, but I mean, itsounds like that ties really
well into what you were sayingof, like, you also have to be
(25:02):
practicing ahead of time,knowing that you have each other
and knowing that, you know,Almost like there's, there's no
scarcity in terms of like youshowing up for each other or
being in each other's presence.
Like having that practice oflike, knowing they're there too.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And 1 thing I think weexperienced just going through,
(25:23):
like, as a queer couple roles isa really thing that's undefined.
As like a header presentingcouple, there's some, Almost
expectations that you seeculturally.
And so for, for queer couplesand for us, we entered into the
planning of the wedding as like,Hey, what, what matters to you?
(25:45):
And what do you feel like youwant to do here?
As the last thing that we wantedwas to feel like one person was
over functioning in the work, inplanning it, or that it mattered
more to them than the other.
And so we were able to sit downand be like, what, You're really
good at like seeing a vision andputting it together.
I, I can do this other piece.
(26:06):
Does that work for you?
And like finding ways to do ittogether and checking in, Hey,
is this still working for youwith what we agreed to?
Yeah.
That was a big thing.
Yeah.
It was really representative.
I'm just like coming up rightnow, but like we got to co
create this really beautifulwedding that we got to make
(26:27):
ours, you know, and.
We got to break whatevertraditions or norms that may
have been expected, you know,and, and do what we wanted.
And that's what we do for ourrelationship to, you know, like
we co create the relationshipthat we want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I think that's, I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's brilliant.
(26:47):
Yeah, are we answering yourquestions?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, this is great.
And, and yeah, I, I totallyagree.
I think that is something, youknow, that's kind of also a
silver lining about queerweddings is that you're right.
Like, there isn't like, thereisn't a lot, like people sort of
(27:10):
see them as Untraditionalalready, so it like lends itself
well to couples and sort of beable to be like, okay, we're not
doing this, but we are going todo this.
And I think to just kind ofgoing back to, like.
The both being stressed at thesame time, I have heard, like,
couples say that they will sortof have, like, a little.
(27:32):
Like something that they mightsay to each other, whether it's
when they're both stressed, ormaybe it's like, if they're in
the middle of an argument like,I know I have a, a couple that
if they were both starting tofeel it, they would just like,
look at each other and say,we're a team.
Yeah, and that sort of, so.
(27:53):
Yeah, yeah.
We, things like that.
We, yeah, the, we're a team orwe remind each other a lot, like
just, I mean, like day to daystuff where it's like, Hey,
we're going to get through this.
Like, it's okay.
You know, this might feel reallytough right now, but you and I,
we've made it through so manythings before.
We're going to get through thistoo.
(28:13):
We have a really good trackrecord or yeah, it's, it's you
and me and we're a team hereand.
Well, it's not.
Let's not turn on each other.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We remind each other of thatpretty back to the, we, the
couple.
Yes.
But I, I think that this is areally important skill for
couples is noticing thosemoments when your partner or you
(28:36):
are starting to kind ofdysregulate, feel anxious, shut
down.
Right.
When that happens, we're goingto attune to it and care for it.
We're not going to bypass it.
I'm not going to just be like,hey, let's just get through this
and then and then we can connectand talk about it.
It's like, no, this matters whenand if we can slow down and care
(28:57):
for each other, we're We canmove through this better
version, you know, weddingsbring up a lot of scary things,
you know, I mean, shoot, even ifyou're not queer weddings, bring
up a lot of scary things, butwhen you throw the queer
experience on top of that, thereare a lot of threats that lie
lie around the corner that, thatpop up that we want to be able
(29:19):
to care for really well for oneanother.
And I think it can be easy tolook at it on the surface and be
like, this isn't a big deal.
Like.
Whatever, brush it off, youknow, like, let's keep moving,
but we really need to learn howto care for those moments.
Well, with 1 within 1 another.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, those moments arereally important.
(29:41):
That's it.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And of course, yeah, weddingsare stressful, but they're not
all stressful.
Like there's, you know, othergood things to There are many
wonderful things.
Yeah.
Yes yeah, in the sphere of that,I'm curious, like, what are some
(30:05):
good ways that couples can,like, encourage each other and
uplift each other when they're,you know, both in the planning
process and, and kind of the dayof, too?
We were talking about thisbefore we hopped on here, like,
how do you encourage each other?
And I think one of the mostimportant things is, like, Just
in in the preparation in all thedoing and all the planning is
(30:26):
acknowledging what each otherare doing.
Like, God, thanks so much forhiring that.
Finding those flowers.
Thanks so much for taking thetime to give so much detail to
the invitations.
I would have butchered it youknow, just.
Constant acknowledgement andcare and that really keeps us
out of automating each otherlike, hey, this was your task
(30:48):
and this is what you said you'ddo.
So good job doing it.
Like, it is.
It's the day to day moment bymoment care and acknowledgement
of what you both are managing.
Well, it's seeing each other tolike, and acknowledging what
your partner is doing.
It's helping each other feelbetter.
Seen in our relationship, like,well, I'm actually existing
here.
Yeah.
(31:08):
And we talk with couples too, alot about just in the day to day
with relationships that we wantto acknowledge these things.
Thank you so much for, you know,picking up the kids or whatever
it was, or taking care of thekitchen or feeding the pets or
whatever it might be.
We always thought we alwaysencourage our couples to do this
as well, but it feeds in intothis moment too, with, with.
(31:31):
Acknowledging it's a practice.
It's a, it's part of a practiceof care and, and not taking your
partner for granted what they'redoing.
I mean, the amount of work thatAsh did for our wedding.
I would have had to pay someonea lot of money to do that, you
know, like she created somethingtogether.
(31:51):
We created something incredible,but the piece that ash brought,
I could have never done.
I didn't have the skills or theawareness.
And so we really tried to justconstantly.
Acknowledge that with each otherand same with you, like there
were parts that Don covered thatI'm like, I would have had to
pay somebody a lot of money tocover that part for me.
And so it's huge.
(32:12):
Yeah, it's huge.
Yeah.
So I think, yeah, in terms ofuplifting one another, like just
acknowledging what the other isdoing and how it's really
benefiting you and impactingyour life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, really acknowledging eachother's strengths.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(32:33):
Yeah.
Cool.
And also, you know, I think agood, like, Hey, you look really
hot today, you know, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hear a lot of that in theacknowledgement of care.
I think it's important.
To acknowledge any grief or lossthat's coming up, like Ash and I
(32:55):
had been married before.
And so getting remarried wasreminding us and bringing up so
many memories of our previouswedding or, or relationship we
had.
And so really caring for that,any excitement, checking in,
like, how are you doing?
Or do you have space for me toshare about this memory?
I had with the last time I gotmarried.
(33:16):
That was a really big thing forus to be able to hold space for
both.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
I've got, I've got two previousmarriages under my belt.
So that was a really big thingthat came up for, for me.
I mean, we're speaking to now Iwas married.
My first marriage was with a manand Jay had come out in that
(33:38):
marriage and my second marriagewith a woman.
And so getting married for athird time came with, I mean, it
was very loaded.
There were lots of parts, Imean, beautiful parts that I
loved.
And then hard parts too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm really glad that youbrought that up because I think.
(34:01):
As you mentioned, like, kind ofacknowledging both is a, is a
very frequent thing that I talkwith couples about, you know,
like, whether parents aren'tcoming because they don't agree
or, you know, I think just ingeneral, family and friends not
coming because they don'tsupport it is a really, really
tough thing for people to haveto deal with on a day like that
(34:23):
as well.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Our wedding because of that wasa really reparative event for
us.
Primarily the 1st time I went, Igot married.
2 members came and 13 siblingsof a big family and 2 came.
(34:43):
So, this, this time that we, Ashand I were together and we're
getting married.
My parents were there.
A number of my siblings werethere.
Her family flew in from Oklahomato Oregon.
Like it was such a beautifulreparative experience.
And yeah, it was, it was biggerthan just a ceremony.
Just a wedding.
(35:04):
Which was big in and of itself,but I mean, it wasn't just, it
was loaded.
It was really layered withimportance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And since, yeah, you two have awealth of knowledge and wisdom
and experience now being in, inyour own marriage.
(35:28):
I'm just kind of curious as wewrap up, if there's anything
that you want to share orencourage the couples that are
listening today with.
I think, I think that we haveenough research and information
that the relationship needs tobe the number 1 most important
thing, not as like a romanticidea, but because of the quality
(35:50):
of life that we see.
When that happens and thatdoesn't mean to neglect work,
family, kids, but reallyprioritize what does it look
like for us as a couple comingtogether, building our own
culture, how can we prioritizethis relationship and protect it
more than anything and a bigpart of that is finding
(36:12):
relationships, friendships thatare pro couple that are for us
together and not just for me.
Okay.
Not just for Ash and that theyare not equals.
Our friends, our, our bestfriends for life or our family
are not equals to our partner.
We are the priority.
We are the top of the chainhere, and we will, we will
(36:34):
protect this relationshiptogether.
Yeah.
When we do well, everything elsegets to benefit in our life.
Because.
We're taking care of this sourceright here.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
That.
And also staying curious aboutthe other and their experience
and really getting to know yourpartner and particularly, I
(36:55):
would say what dysregulation oractivation is like for them,
that way you can get really goodat catching onto those moments
and showing up for them.
When they really need it.
Yeah.
What like, when I'm thinkingabout like advice or wisdom, I,
one thing that happens is we getinto these relationships and
we're coming with a history withrelationship, whether it's from
(37:18):
our parents or whoever raised usor previous partners.
And once we see our partner ispermanent, we, we can load all
that history onto them and havean expectation.
And that's that they will.
You know, we're on the lookoutfor those things to happen to us
again, and the opportunity wehave together can actually heal
(37:39):
past trauma, you know, if I'mreactive or jealous, or I shut
down with sharp tone andconflict, like, all of that can
be.
Cared for and healed.
So what I what action I say islike, hey, I didn't cause this
trauma or this reaction, but I'mgoing to learn to care for it.
I'm going to get really good atcaring for these moments that I
(38:00):
wish I had been there for, youknow, and I'm not going to say
that's your stuff.
You need to figure it out ordon't bring that here.
I'm going to.
Learn how to care for it andsoothe it because together we
can heal.
Yeah.
I like to think of it too.
When we get into those momentswhere, you know, you've shared
with me stories from your pastand I don't know if you relate
(38:23):
to this, but you know, when youhear stories from your partner,
you know, where they've beenharmed or somebody didn't show
up for them, like it's almost.
Like, you just want to go andprotect them and care for them.
I wish I could have been there.
So it didn't go that way foryou.
And so in those moments whereyou're activated, like, I really
tried to like, shift it to whereI, it's like, this is the part
(38:48):
that's coming up.
It's historical.
Right.
It's the past is beingsuperimposed on the present
right now is what's actuallyhappening.
And so this is my moment.
And my opportunity is yourloving partner to get to show up
for you and care for you in away that you didn't get and you
absolutely deserved back then.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I'm so good.
(39:10):
Oh, my God.
You two are so wise.
Wow.
I, I'm really glad you mentionedthat part too about just like,
kind of how your relationship isthe priority because, you know,
Obviously, I think that's soimportant, just like across the
board.
But as we're talking aboutweddings, I think that would be
(39:32):
such a helpful thing for couplesto remember because I feel like
if they could carry that mindsetinto their day, like, I feel
like so many couples wouldleave.
With like such a betterexperience if they were like
truly able to be like, hey todayis about us and like Taking care
of each other having fun witheach other and then like I just
(39:54):
feel like that would change theexperience for so many You know
instead of having to be like,well, my mom really wants us to
do this, you know random thingbut That stresses me out, but
like, can we have a conversationthen and just take it like that?
Oh, yeah Yeah, the couple is toppriority mom can have you know,
(40:19):
mom can have their opinionthat's okay But it doesn't mean
we need to take it, you know,okay if mom's disappointed it's
oh, that's one thing.
Yes Permission to disappoint mompermission to disappoint dad or
grandma or whoever it is You donot need to show up and make
sure they're good on thatspecifically on that day, right?
(40:41):
But I mean, especially not aboveyourself or your partner,
especially that you havepermission to disappoint them.
They will, they can survivethat.
It's okay.
Yeah.
Wow.
That is a, that is a mic dropmoment right there.
Yeah, we had to remind ourselvesof that at times too, just with
(41:03):
different things.
Not so much.
Oh yeah.
That could be like podcast parttwo boundaries.
Yeah, honestly.
It's so true.
I think that's something thateveryone struggles with on their
wedding.
Cause I think.
There's just like, so much ofthe nature of a wedding that
feels people feel like they aredoing it for other people, which
(41:24):
is not always necessarily bad.
But yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe part 2 is in our futuresometime.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great questions.
Yeah, that's really.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, and thank you to both somuch.
If people here are listening andthey're interested in, in
(41:47):
working on their relationshipwith you, yeah, work with you.
Yeah, yeah, we, we found thebest way to support people in an
intimate way is through reachingpeople through just social media
right now.
So, tick tock Instagram there'san app.
There's a link in our bio toapply to work with us for a 10
(42:08):
week program.
We're also going to be.
Launching a queer couples coursethat the interactive course they
can do together on their ownself pace in the next couple of
months here.
So, yeah, we're really excitedabout that one.
Yeah, we're hoping to reach.
I mean, we can only reach somany people when we're working
with them 1 on 1.
That is just.
(42:30):
Our passion and our love butwe're hoping to reach so many
other queer couples through,through this program we're about
to launch.
And so, yeah, yeah, it's goingto be a very skill based, like,
how do we communicate?
How do we conflict?
Well, how do we repair quickly?
It's going to be very specific.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've had fun creating it.
Oh, my gosh.
(42:51):
That is amazing.
I can't wait to see that.
And I will make sure to put allof your social links in the show
notes.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Yeah.
That sounds great.
That's awesome.
Thanks Anna.
Yeah.
Thank you both so, so much forsharing your time and your
wisdom.
I know that there's a lot ofcouples who have already
(43:11):
benefited so much, and, and ourlittle corner today are gonna
benefit a lot too, so thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks for having us on andreaching out.
Absolutely.
This is a great topic.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.