February 24, 2023 • 40 mins
According to the American Psychological Association, approximately 40-50% of first marriages end in divorce. The divorce rate for second marriages is even higher, with about 60-67% ending in divorce.
As a child of divorce, I've only known them to be bitter and spiteful. My guest, Skye Michiels, is out to change that.
Skye is a dad, award-winning real estate leader, motivational speaker, and host of The 6AMERS Podcast, which provides inspiration and motivation for developing a healthy mindset, setting goals, and achieving happiness.
As a divorced dad of two, Skye is passionate about promoting positive co-parenting and determined to show divorced couples that a better, healthier, and happier experience is possible when a positive co-parenting relationship exists.
We discuss the shame and guilt of the "leaver" in a divorce, the benefits of positive co-parenting, tips to being happily divorced, and bust the myth of staying together for the kids' sake.
Topics and Questions
- 1:28 - What does it mean to be very happily divorced?
- 2:49 - Is it possible to have a bad marriage and a good divorce?
- 5:01 - Does being happily divorced mean the entire divorce process was smooth and joyous?
- 8:41 - Is staying together for the kids realistic?
- 11:30 - Andy's experience as a child of divorce.
- 12:06 - Experience of the leaver. What helps deal with the shame?
- 17:35 - Do things like positive co-parenting and conscious uncoupling mean the bitter divorce is a thing of the past?
- 20:19 - How long did it take from saying I'm leaving to being happily divorced?
- 22:57 - What made you know it was time to end the marriage?
- 24:39 - What are some signs you are not in a great co-parenting situation?
- 28:20 - What are some tips for creating a positive co-parenting relationship?
- 30:10 - Would your partner say you are a great ex-husband?
- 31:17 - Does being divorced turn you off from ever being married again?
- 32:24 - What are some of the biggest challenges for divorced men?
- 33:44 - What does leading with kindness mean?
- 36:26 - Tell me about your podcast, The 6AMERS.
- 38:44 - Skye, what's the best way for people to learn more and connect with you?
"To be a happily divorced person, you must agree on your commonalities. What's non-negotiable for both of you?" - Skye Michiels
Links
Skye Michiels on Instagram -- @skyemichiels
The 6AMERS podcast on Instagram -- @the6amers
Recommended Books: Conscious Uncoupling: 5 Steps to Living Happily Even After - https://amzn.to/3YVadA2
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Interested in a Clarity Call with Andy? - visit theandygrant.com/talk
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Personal Website | theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Podcast Website | realmenfeel.org for all things podcast-related!
RMF Facebook Group | realmenfeel.org/group
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
#RealMenFeel 291
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello and welcome to real men. Feel this is your host author
coaching speaker, Andy, Grant, please, visit v&e Grant.com to
learn more about me room and feel reminds men that they are
human beings and have the right to experience and express all of
their emotions. It's not that there are some
emotions from man, in some for women you as a human being have
the right to experience the fullrange, we have conversations
(00:21):
that most men aren't having, butthat all men can benefit from,
you know, according to the American Psychological
Association approximately 40 to 50 percent of first.
Marriages end in divorce the divorce rate.
For second marriages is even higher with approximately 60 60
to 67 percent of second. Marriages ending in divorce as
well. And according to a recent survey
(00:41):
of financial professionals, the three leading causes of divorce
are basic incompatibility infidelity, and then money
issues. My guest today is going to fix
all that. My guest is Sky, Michaels sky is
a dad award-winning. Real estate leader, motivational
speaker and host of the 6A a podcast.
Which provides inspiration and motivation, for developing a
(01:02):
healthy mindset setting goals and achieving happiness.
As a divorced, dad of two sky ispassionate about promoting
positive co-parenting and determined to show divorced
couples that have better. Healthier and happier experience
is possible. When a positive co-parenting
relationship is established. Welcome to real man feels guy.
Thank you so much for having me out.
I feel flattered to be here whenwe first spoke you see you
(01:26):
introduced in a way that I'd never heard before.
You said that you are very Happily Divorced.
Forced. I it is it's a term that I think
it shocks people when I use it because those two words
typically are not used together.And I think it's a way to take
counteract, a lot of the shame, and the guilt and the, you know,
(01:47):
the her depends on on, what whatyour role was and the worst for
you go through different things.But the word divorce carries so
much baggage, so much negativityand so much pain, frankly for
all parties. And when you put the word
happily in front of it, it reframes that into divorces
being a noun, right? A divorce is just a thin thing,
(02:10):
a noun, right? And the the putting, the word
happily describes what that nounis.
And we get to reframe that word in a way where we into their, I
instantly try to convey. Hey, I am in a happy situation
right now, right? And by happy I'm I have a
healthy children. I have a healthy exercise A wife
(02:30):
who I am friends with. I have a schedule that works for
both of us, I have open lines ofcommunication where there's a
change, we can communicate aboutit and all those great things
that frankly make up a good marriage.
Awesome makeup. A good divorce and that's the
irony of the whole situation. Yeah.
So is it possible to have a bad marriage but a good divorce?
(02:52):
It's very possible. I think I think you know and
once again I'm sure my ex-wife is going to listen to this.
So yeah we I wouldn't qualify want By our marriages as bad per
se in the sense of like, you know, we had challenges and lots
of challenges like most married couples, but it is very
possible. Have a bad marriage and a good
divorce because sometimes the things that are wrong in a
(03:13):
marriage can be solved in the divorce and that and what you do
is you come back in order to be a happily divorced person.
The first thing you have to do is you have to agree on your
commonality. And for me and my ex-wife are
commonality, were the things that were non-negotiables for
both of us. It was our children, Mackenzie
and Hudson. So when you start from a
(03:36):
position of your, your non-negotiables, right, your
commonality. All right, instead of us
focusing on our differences, thethings we don't agree on, right?
I wake up early, she wakes up late.
I like this kind of food. She likes that kind of food.
I say it's sunny out. She says, it's cloudy out.
Yeah, we could go on and on. And Jeff was focusing on all
(03:57):
those instead. Let's start from our common
standpoint and then from there we can work on the more
challenging things that we need to figure out as we move forward
in this new life and and it's funny Andy because I think you
think of like someone getting engaged and then working towards
a marriage. A divorce is almost the exact
(04:18):
same process. In Reverse you agree.
You get to a point where maybe don't agree but you you announce
we are Getting divorced. And then you work backwards on
doing a lot of the things opposed to you get engaged and
you work forward, you know, creating the household, creating
the common areas, and then you get married.
(04:39):
The divorce is almost the polar opposite where you announce it,
it's almost like you're unprepared easel, so to speak.
And you slowly work your way towards that, perhaps pathway
where you no longer are married couple.
But when you have children, especially, you still share a
common love. Love and a common goal.
So to speak of what you're striving for.
(05:01):
It does being happily divorced. Now mean that the entire divorce
process was smooth and joyous ornot, know now is probably let's
again, similar to like being engaged.
Like you know most people that get in case, there's a lot of
stress involved in getting married.
There's a lot of stress involvedin getting divorced as well, you
know, and and our process was not roses and you know, you
(05:25):
know, Happy in the the where we are today is not where we were
when it first began, you know? And when it first begins.
Yeah and every situation is different.
I called divorce of fingerprint,right?
Everyone situations listening tothis, it's going to be a
different situation for each person and my hope is what you
can do. Is you can pull almost picture
(05:45):
an apple tree. And you can pull one little
apple off, that's going to help you a little bit and that's
really the goal. But our process was definitely
rocking the beginning. In this sense, Out of, there's a
lot of I was the person that made the ultimate decision to
leave. So I call me, I'm called the
lever and she was the one being left, right?
And so each of us play differentroles in that for me.
(06:08):
I experienced a lot of Shame anda lot of guilt and like, you
know, you go through this process where you're struggling
because of the fact you're the one that's making that decision
that you fear a lot of fear, right?
That. Oh my God, I'm going to be the
cause of demise of my family. My children going to hate me or
you your mind runs from my ex-wife.
(06:30):
It's a lot of anger, right? A lot of feeling of not good and
was I not good enough for, you know, this is I don't want to
speak for her but at the end of the day she had her own set of
feelings that she experienced. So you're navigating these
individual feelings that you're going through that rock you,
right? And you're still trying to
figure out, all right, how do weparent now?
(06:52):
How do we divided households? How do we create two new
households? It's money, you know, Furniture
cars, you name it. Everything needs to be decided
what happens. But through it, all, what we did
is, we always kept the two kids as our commonality in our common
point and we always wanted to keep them Above The Fray of what
(07:14):
was happening. So and I'll tell you, if it's
okay, I'll tell you a quick story about the day.
We told them that we were getting divorced.
Now, we didn't use the word divorce, by the way, they were
six and four and Yeah, we had been through a very long process
of therapy and trying and, you know, and we were finding the
point where it was happening. It was moving forward and I
(07:36):
remember, we were in a car and August her driving get school
supplies and we're like, all right, we're going to tell them
in the car. Now, we have been sleeping in
separate bedrooms at this point.So we had a mom's room and a
dad's room. And we're both in the front seat
like sort of crying quietly. You know they can tell we were
crying at sunglasses on and we were so so guys you know, we
have something to tell you You, you know, next month, you know,
(07:58):
we have a mom's room in a dad's room where we're going to have a
mom's house, so the dad's house and they're like, cool.
That's awesome. Hey, we're in the front seat.
Like, look at each other. Like it.
Wait, it should they be like really upset?
And and for some reason like that, there was this moment of
humor didn't really absolve all the sadness and that, you know,
(08:20):
the feelings were going through.But there's a really funny
moment to recall because of the fact that we actually We had
created a world where they did. They were comfortable.
They were happy and for them it was if we were fine with it,
they were fun. You know what I mean?
So, we needed to like lead the way and it was, it was a, it was
a funny moment to say the least.Now, one of the common refrains
(08:43):
I've always heard around. Divorce is, well, let's stay
together for the kids and you'resaying really, well, let's make
a good divorce for the kids. So can is it is stand together
for the kids? Is that a realistic?
Is that actually? Is that a reality for?
One, um, well it's a reality than sense of people do it.
But when you say you're staying together for the kids, you
(09:05):
really have to question what we're always teaching children
lessons. And whether we're speaking it or
acting it, we're teaching. They were watching everything.
We do everything we do and I another story to give you, and
it was one of the formative moments of Y or a pushed me
because I was saying the same thing.
(09:26):
I was like, you know what, we'llstay together for the kids like,
you, when they go to college, we'll figure it out, you know?
Yeah, they added. So not that long, a time.
And I remember one morning, you know, we're eating breakfast and
kids are in the kitchen bar. You know?
And we hugged each other and they're like, yeah, what are you
guys doing? And in my head, I was like, oh
my God, I'm teaching my children.
(09:48):
That intimacy is actually not really, you know, doesn't exist.
They didn't even know what it was like to see us like hug in
that moment. Do you know what I mean?
And I remember that moment probably the rest of my life
because there's one of those really formative moments.
I was like, wow, I'm actually, I'm actually messing them up.
More by, by staying in this because they see me disappear.
(10:09):
Didn't they see her distant? They see us arguing fighting
like the. Oh, so that's what a
relationship is. A relationship is where you yell
at each other. You know, that's not a
relationship, that's not healthy.
That's not the way you deal withproblems and you get, so wrapped
up in your, in your mind, and everything along those lines.
(10:30):
And you tell yourself you're staying together for the kids
but the reality is children know.
And the other reality is the older they get the clue.
More baggage. They're dealing with that then
they could latch on that they were the reason they were.
You know, when they're younger when you're at the point where
you know this is the direction you're going to take and then
(10:50):
you say well 10 more years from now it'll be fine.
You are creating really really -Pathways of learning for your
children in those 10 years whereyou could have an optional,
there's another option out thereto create a happy divorce with
Pathways that allow kids to thrive.
You know, we do all our holidaystogether, we do all our
(11:11):
birthdays together, we do graduations together.
And, you know, I wanted my children to grow up in a world
where they didn't need to fear their mom and dad being in the
same room together or the same event together or, you know,
whatever it might be. So and if I use my experience it
was what I could say to traditional divorce of
(11:32):
bitterness and hatred. And my parents did not get
together. And that any sort of school
assembly Dad's on one side moms on the other side or my from the
front. Dad's in the back of the room
and yeah. And and even talking about
intimacy, so my parents divorced, when I'm about five
years old. So I really have no memories of
them being together, but I do remember being a kid and seeing
my grandparents hug and kiss and, you know, fooling around
(11:54):
with each other, in the kitchen,I was like a gas.
Like, what are these old people doing like, when when does this
start in life? And most this is crazy.
Yeah, exactly it's so funny. You mentioned as the lever as
the initiator divorce you felt Shame and fear and concern about
being hated by your kids. Yeah.
(12:16):
How did you get through that? Like what helped relieve the
shame? Yeah, the well I therapy is the
one. I mean if you are going through
divorce and you don't have a therapist, you are probably
you're not doing the right thingfor yourself.
You know, if you have the means to her therapist or even the
whatever, there's a lot of insurance that covers therapy
(12:37):
now and if you are going to divorce on either, Side and you
don't have someone helping you manage some of your thoughts and
feeling. So, so therapy was the first
thing. We also hired a co-parenting
therapist as well, which was extremely helpful because of the
fact once again we didn't know how do we do this?
What are the boundaries we create?
How do we communicate? What's what's good?
(12:58):
What's bad? So having a third party there to
really help us work through someof these challenges especially
in the beginning days when it was very raw and very tenuous
and very No, there's still a lotof emotion.
The other thing that got me through, it was really becoming
an another, another communist smashing it to words together,
(13:20):
Sunday, I call Healthy selfish, where I got really, really
selfish around my personal health meaning, you know, I was
definitely going in when I was going through the initial
process, I was in a bad place. And, you know, one of my dear
friends, Jake Dreyfus, would he started calling me and texting
me? Five in the morning and I
(13:41):
started getting up at 5:00 in the morning, going to the gym,
working out eating right like doing all these healthy things
and we ultimately formed a groupcalled The Five a and bunch of
us would get up early in the morning and get on a zoom call
sometimes. Anyways, it was a really, really
beautiful group and that's really what helped me is by
(14:01):
realizing that happiness isn't. I can't get happiness from my
ex-wife or my wife at the time. I can't get happiness for my
Children. I can't get happiness for my
parents or coworkers. Happiness.
Only comes from one place and that's me.
And and it was a really I was I grew up you know I people
pleaser as long as everyone elsewas happy I was happy and it
(14:25):
took a very long time to resolvethat that mentality that at the
end of the day, my job is actually to make myself happy in
a healthy way, right? That's why I say healthy
selfish. Not we're not talking about
doing bad things to people. B2B to be selfish.
We're talking about doing the things I hey, and if I'm up at 5
a.m. and my kids are still sleeping and I work out that's
(14:47):
healthy. Yes, it's selfish as well.
So it's one of those things thatyou I developed a routine and a
structure where my health becameone of my number one priorities
because everything began a for me with my physical health and
then be with my mental health orvice versa, you could probably
flip those back and forth or whichever might be.
And, and then now that I've developed this concept, I call
(15:09):
being I'm the light instead of giving life.
So my job is to be the light to myself and that light will shine
really bright and people will be, you know, lit up from that
versus me, trying to give the light and then depleting myself
so much that all I'm doing is giving giving giving.
And then also in turn around andI'm spent and there's going to
(15:30):
be a point where I can't give anymore, right?
So it was a long long process but therapy being healthy,
selfish around your health and around the thing.
That are going to make you healthy, both mentally and
physically. And then really just making sure
I was working on myself to be a better man, better person.
Yeah, I often say that. Selfishness gets a really bad
(15:50):
rap. It does selfishness in the sense
of competitive, set, and taking things so that no, that's not
good. But when you put yourself first
for, I think that's what you teach your children.
That each of us matters not thateverybody else matters more than
us and yeah and again when you're a healthy well-rounded
man and you put yourself first, you're naturally Joy.
Joyous life, you're naturally more full of light, you're of
(16:12):
more service and all of that positive energy spreads.
So you know I love the journey and when your health at least
selfish, you're positively impacting everybody around you.
Exactly. Exactly.
And here's the other thing, as well, is that I also didn't
focus on trying to get better inLeaps and Bounds.
(16:33):
I tried to get better and it's avery common term of like 1%,
right? So I wouldn't measure like, oh
my Like we don't have this beautiful co-parenting
situation, two months after getting divorced.
What I would measure is like, you know, we passed off the kids
in a without an argument. We got a little bit better today
you know we had a challenging discussion without yelling we
(16:55):
got a little bit better today. We you know, we successfully
negotiated like a little bit of a change in the schedule without
it being a big deal, we got a little bit better and I think
that's other thing is like we, especially in today's society,
Society were being bombarded with social media, and images of
perfection, and all this stuff that we create this, like, big
(17:16):
gap. And where we should, we think we
should be versus taking a look behind as being like.
Wow, we've come a long way. Do you know what I mean?
And that, that was the other thing only comparing ourselves
to our past selves is the one ofthe best comparison you can make
exactly. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So. So with things like positive
co-parenting, and conscious uncoupling.
(17:39):
Does that mean the bitter divorces are just a thing of the
past or do you still see them happen?
You know unfortunately well unfortunately they're going to
be with us forever in many ways.You know.
I wish I could say we could wavea magic wand and any person that
decided to get divorced would have the same positive messaging
that we give marriage. We give a similar positive
(18:03):
messaging to divorce in the sense of not to say we're
advocating for it. But to say that sense it, when
you make That decision. We're going to approach it in
this healthy way, right? Instead you know unfortunately
we have divorce lawyers that I'mnot there.
Some great lawyers out there. This is not a criticism of the
profession of the trade but unfortunately a lawyer's job is
(18:25):
usually to win for their client.And if you're working with a
divorce lawyer who doesn't put your children first, I would
recommend not working with that person.
And then number two what we tried to create or, you know,
was the When meaning okay, like I'm going to give up maybe some
Financial here but you're going to I'm going to also gain here
(18:46):
or whatever it might be. And I think that's the other key
thing is recognizing that there are no winners or losers in
divorce. There's only human beings and
divorce. And and I think we got to
reframe the mindset of like oh I'm going to make that person
pay, right? If you're the one that was hurt,
I'm going to make him pay or herpay.
(19:07):
If you were the one that was leaving, like oh, I'm going to
try to To protect and hide and you do as much as I can to know
you. Hey, you guys both both people
created where you were today andwhat are you going to do to move
forward and in a healthy way? The other thing as well is might
get, like I said in the beginning, my kids were my
number one priority a healthy ex-wife.
(19:31):
You know, if she was healthy andhappy, that's the best thing for
my children. So if I'm, you know, screwed her
over from with money, or you do,Anything like that.
What does that say about me as afather and a man, right?
So my goal was to say, if, if you are good, there's nothing
better for my children than havetheir mother in a beautiful
(19:51):
space, you know. And that was the other decision.
I think you need to make. If you keep your, if your
children are number one priority, your partner needs to
be taken care of in some way right?
You know, and it might not be, you know, Monday, maybe it's not
financially, maybe it's emotionally.
Maybe it's with a schedule change, maybe whatever it might
be, but the if both people adoptthe mindset that, hey, healthy
(20:15):
father, or a healthy mother is the best thing for my kids from,
from the moment. You said, I'm leaving to the
time that you could say, wow, weare happily divorced.
But like, how long does that process?
How about, how long was that? It was a long time today.
We as November of 2016, it was the first time we were in a
(20:36):
massive argument week before Thanksgiving And it was the
first I'd been in therapy up until that point.
And is the first time that I wasfinally have the courage to say,
listen, I'm done at that point, we gave it one more shot with
another, you know, we got after long discussion were like,
alright, let's give it one more shot, we did hire another
therapist, you know, and we gaveit a little more time and it
(20:59):
just it was I was done at that point, you know what I mean?
I couldn't like deny it anymore,fake it or you know, hope to be
Hope to change. It just wasn't going to change
and Probably I would say is, youknow, we always even at when we
separated we did the holidays together and they in the
(21:21):
beginning it was a little tenuous, you know, going to her
family's place or my, you know, everyone was walking on
eggshells a little bit and here was the Turning Point.
The turning point was when I started to own the divorce
versus blame for the divorce youknow and in many ways like and
you know, I could sit here on this call and say oh well she
(21:43):
did and this is what I would do,we got divorce but this is you
know this is what happened and this is what happened and I was
pushing the blame on her you know.
And I it's a concept. I read in a book, I camera which
book but it's 100 to 0. It was the concept.
I wish I could remember the bookto give whoever wrote it the
credit, but when I took a hundred percent responsibility
(22:04):
for my actions and there's zero responsibility for on her side,
right? Was the moment that I started to
be able to like overcome it and actually, I own my role and say,
you know what, like, yeah, thereare things that happen.
But you know what, I was the onethat did, you know, sort of
withdrew into work. I was one that didn't want to
come home. I was one that, you know, slept
(22:25):
in, separate bedrooms out. Yeah.
And I own my role. And then that was the moment.
I think that we started to like start to Ed forward, into that
zone of Happiness outside, you know, in the beginning, it's not
happiness, you feel, it's reliefa little bit right?
That there's progress. And slowly, that relief will
(22:45):
turn into happiness or hopefullywill turn into happiness.
That's the goal. So it sounds like, you know,
they're there were problems. You both worked on trying to
save the marriage. Keep it going.
Yeah. What made you know this is the
end, you know, it's great question.
(23:06):
There there is no one definitivemoment because of the fact there
were definitely certain challenges and issues you know
out of privacy for my ex-wife like what I don't want to go
into it. Do you know what I mean?
I'll just say they were. There are challenges that we
both experienced will say that, right?
And at the end of the day we work through a lot of those
(23:28):
challenges, you know. And so there wasn't like this
one definitive moment for me where I was like oh Oh like I'm
done because you'd have a challenge you worked through it.
You're like okay maybe and then you have a challenge and you're
like I'm out and they're like okay we'll work through it.
Maybe you know so it was probably it was the death of a
thousand moons more. So right where it was just like
(23:51):
cut he had just enough Cuts where you finally were like.
Okay, it's over and they're a little moments, of course like
like my kids, you know, seeing us be intimate and other things.
But it was really just the the slow build-up of Little things
over time to where I finally gotto the point.
And the biggest thing was havinga therapist as well, help me
(24:12):
with my feelings of working through that, you know, of guilt
and like, how do I want? I don't want to be in this
situation anymore but I don't know how to do it.
And, finally, getting to the point where I was built up
enough to have the courage to leave, you know what I mean?
So may seem obvious, but I want to, I want to ask this for the,
(24:33):
for the benefit of someone that's divorced is in a
situation. In just thinks this is how it
always is. So what are some signs that
you're not? And a great co-parenting
divorce? Hmm sighs you're on a good
co-parenting is when you're a your children are comfortable
with you being in the same space, right?
(24:53):
That's if you know, your kids get nervous or anxious or when
you two are in the same space. That's a number one sign.
The second sign is when you're not flexible, now you There's a
difference between having clear boundaries and then being
flexible, right? So, for example, I travel for
(25:13):
work, I train around the country.
So there are times where I'll call my ex-wife and be like,
hey, can you, you know, how to schedule to watch them On A
Tuesday? Can you switch it Tuesday for a
Thursday? Now, her boundary is to say no,
I can't do that. And I'm okay with that.
If she says, I can't do that, you know?
Because we've already have an agreement laid out.
(25:34):
But if she's just sitting home, Home doing nothing and she has
the ability to make the switch, and it doesn't impact her in any
way. That's a sign that when you are
doing things, just out of spite.That's not a healthy
co-parenting situation. Now, you can vary.
You can maintain your boundarieswith zero, guilt or zero.
It's my responsibility to get coverage on my nights.
(25:58):
Do you know what I mean? But, I always want to use her as
my first resource because I'd rather my kids are with her then
a babysitter. Know what I mean, but she has
the absolute right to say, no, but she's only saying no out of
anger or spite. That's a sign that your.
So, if you're doing things out of anger and spite, you're
probably not in a healthy co-parenting situation.
(26:19):
And, you know, the, the probably, the third thing I
would say is when you argue overinconsequential or meaningless
things, You left you you didn't drop the kids soccer gear off
your horrible. There you're there right now is
the people forget. Yeah, I didn't drop the kids
(26:40):
soccer think. Yeah, it's frustrating.
I'm frustrated. All right.
Go you know, here are the keys to the house car I'm gonna run
home from work or whatever, right.
But when Little Things become, you know, big things are in a
really inconsequential that's why your third sign that you
need to do some work within yourco-parenting because your
children, see all this, right? Right?
(27:00):
They see it all. You know?
So it's a situation where there's so many resource.
Not so many, there are resourcesout there and I would highly
recommend it. That if you've never seen a
co-parenting therapist, find a co-parenting therapist.
Have a third party. The reality is, we're still
dealing with our scars from the marriage, right?
(27:21):
We're still bringing those forward.
So it really is helpful with a third party.
Can say listen, here's what I'd advise you do.
Here's your schedule. So you create boundaries, right?
On whatever the advice is you get doesn't mean you need to
listen to it. Exactly.
Right. But it just means there's
someone not that isn't carrying the scars that you guys, both
(27:43):
carry forward that can give you that advice.
And that's so it's a great question of the signs of when
you're not in a healthy co-parenting situation, what are
those sons? And once again just, you know,
me and my ex, we still have little things that come up,
she'll get frustrated, if I did change the night, you know?
We're still human beings and we still have a motion, right?
(28:04):
And but we can recover from thatvery quickly, or recognize, when
we're doing it and be like, okay, my bad like that, that's
really not a big deal. Let me, let me just drop the
soccer stuff off, you know. So, so, what I've heard so far
for, for some tips to create this positive co-parenting
relationship, start off by getting the commonalities
(28:26):
agreement on that, and you different recommend therapy and
ideally, it's It's a co parenting expert.
Correct. Yeah.
And any other any other tips to make that process as smooth as
it can be? Yeah, I read the book conscious
uncoupling and now for me was very impactful.
I would highly recommend people read that book if it's something
that, that would, you know, resonate with you.
(28:49):
And I think the other thing is, like, figure out what makes you
happy, and make sure you're doing things that make you
happy, within the context of notharming, anyone, you know, I
mean, so that's going to, you know, on a vacation to Florida
makes you happy and you're therefor a month, that's not what I'm
talking about. Not escapism, but exactly
(29:12):
perfect terminology, but doing the things like making sure, you
know, our bodies healthy. I'm you know, hanging out my
friends, I have relationships with my family, you know, the
things have really fuel your, your, your life and your
happiness, definitely, it's really critical when you go
through this process. Not too high.
They're not to not to withdraw, but to really Embrace those
(29:33):
things that do create the happiness.
And when you're in there, never try your hardest to not talk ill
will of your partner. Do you know?
And and reframe, you know, it's one of those funny things that
language is so powerful. Like, I even try not to even use
the word ex-wife. Do you know what I mean?
Because it won't that X, right? There's almost like a negativity
(29:55):
to that. So in often like I'll call her
my partner, you know, And that'sreally the more appropriate
terminology. She's my partner in my kids, you
know? And that's it.
All right, so if I asked your partner, if you were a great
ex-husband, what would she say 95% of time, I think she would
(30:16):
say oh he's the best. I think the five percent and you
know my schedule is a little hectic, you know I can
definitely I'm a person that cando a lot.
Like I'm also not a planner I can like be like oh yeah well
I'm going to the beach with the kids this weekend she's like oh
what weight you know not that infact of it, she's once again
(30:37):
these are our differences so those are the little things that
you would probably say I could get better on is a little more
organization, a little more planning and a little more
structure. But 95 I would my argument would
be that she would call me a great ex-husband in the sense of
you know 95% of what she would want me to be, I am.
(30:59):
Yeah. It's at five.
That's that's that's that's a strong.
Hey, yeah. I think of us as an ex-husband.
Let's not call her on the phone.Now, kidding.
And what was, what was wonderingtime?
I got to talk to someone that's that's been divorced.
You, especially recently divorced, does this turn you off
against ever being married again?
(31:21):
Um it's a good question on a personal level and this is just
for me personally like I don't have any desire to get married
again in the sense of you know IV of being in a relationship
does not mean marriage and I think there are certain e.m.
This there certain societal things that feel heavy with
(31:42):
marriage to me and probably thisis my scars bringing forward.
So I think there's a difference between being in a relationship
and being married. So for me, personally, at this
stage My life, I have no desire to be married again.
You know, yes, desire to be in arelationship again for sure, but
not to be married again. You know, in my mind, you know,
I don't need a ring or a piece of paper to determine what my
(32:07):
feelings or actions are going tobe.
That's makes sense. So and we've touched on sheer
sheer, making up words, shame and fear.
I've combined them into sugar, huh?
I'm still here. This means that.
What do you see and based on your experience and what you see
in others? What are the biggest challenges?
(32:29):
What are some of the biggest challenges for divorced men?
Biggest challenge for divorce. Men is the typically there's a
world where there's not a lot ofsupport for.
There's all that support period,but for men especially there's
usually very little support. He's usually very, you know, few
(32:50):
groups, It depends on your your,you know, social group.
Sometimes there might not be other men that are divorced,
that, you know, or if you do, they might not be the best
person to talk to, right about it.
Maybe they're not healthily divorced or happily divorced.
So I think the challenge for most men is that you you sort of
suffer in silence. I was very lucky in the sense.
(33:13):
I had some really, really dear friends that were.
We're also divorced in the healthy, you know, healthy way.
But also gave me really good advice.
Along the Way and were there when I needed them to, hey, I
just need to grab a beer with you and talk about what I'm
feeling, right? So being able to find the couple
people that are very healthy foryou, and then your Outlets is
key and it allows you to form that healthy thing.
(33:36):
But the chat biggest challenges are most men, suffer in silence
in your teaching and your coaching world, you talked a lot
about leading with kindness. Yeah, I'm gonna chain.
Can you explain that a bit? Yeah, yeah.
So one of my mottos I have Is that, you know, my mission in
life is to show that love and kindness is a source of power
(33:57):
and strength, meaning and are inour world traditionally.
Like we see if you use the word power and strength, you
typically would have you big muscular male, you know, maybe
seal wrestler, you know, something really big and
dominant but the reality is who who's actually moved the world.
It's a people that have used love and kindness to create
(34:19):
massive levels of power and strength.
Gandhi the, you know, Mohandas Gandhi, he defeated the British
Empire, right? A mini, think about it.
And how did he do it? He did it through love and
kindness, you know, and Martin Luther King changed, you know,
civil rights in this country you.
So you look back in history and and the people that use power
(34:43):
and strength in The Brute sense will always always have fallen
out of power. Have always Have been defeated,
have always been sort of put down or put out, and it's a
people that have used loving-kindness have created
lasting change. And that's, I think one of the
things that I come back to that in all of our settings, marriage
(35:07):
career business, you know, the world politics.
If we can get to this point where we recognize that loving
kindness like when I'm loving and kind and towards other
people that actually is a sourceof strength and creates power
versus when I'm trying to Bulldog someone or you know push
them under or defeat them or whatever might be using brute
(35:30):
power and strength that might work short-term but eventually
it's going to either come back on me or it's going to just
consume me one of the two. So when you use love and
kindness you can run for infinite you know, for Infinity
into the change that you can create and the power and
strength you can generate because of the fact that love
(35:51):
and This if it goes back into that, be the light concept
loving-kindness is when you can be the light, right?
And emanate that and that light instead of just shining in One
Direction goes everywhere. So it's sort of a philosophy.
I like to live by and as for a philosophy that like to sort of
push out there for Business Leaders and politicians or
(36:12):
anyone that listens to me, it's something that I sort of
preached. So and again, that that healthy
selfishness helps you tap into that Limitless.
Light that we do have the ability to tap into.
So right go ahead and I'm going to give you a tell me about your
podcast met with the 6 a.m. Yeah so so I work I'm my my role
my career right now. I'm the head of agent
(36:33):
development for a real estate company called Compass which is
the number one National brokerage.
We have about 30,000, people allacross the country.
My job is basically my day job will call it is to design
training curriculum and deliver that to real estate agents
across the Virtually and in person in the pandemic, when the
(36:55):
pandemic it in April, or May I'msorry, March of 2020.
You know, we're all knocked downat home and I was just like,
frustrated by it and eating unhealthy, drinking binge
watching TV etcetera. So I got a little frustrating.
I basically just resurrected, you know, some of the practices
we use in the five a and I launched the six, a just in my
(37:17):
local office, you know it about 50 agents, sign up.
We're all home. We had And no reason to wake up
at 6 a.m. but we are all startedjust waking up early and then
getting on the zoom call and chatting and talking right and
creating a community and then every month since then the
organization just there the community, I should say just
started to spread all across thecountry.
(37:38):
So we would be doing these Zoom calls and it's one of those
funny things I look back and I'mlike, wait a minute after a
couple years. I'm like I have hours and hours
of beautiful interviews with some powerful people.
I To make sure that this gets out there into the world.
So we basically went my co-host,Emily basara and I we went and
we recorded the intros and exits, 4424 of the episodes.
(38:03):
We're going to be going out in about a month or so to
California record season 2 and what we do is pay.
So just take our morning interviews, not all of them.
We curate, the, the ones that wefeel are the most powerful and
then we record the eggs, intros,and exits.
And then we're releasing those in the podcast and it's been an
awesome. Situation to be able to bring
authors and business people. And you know, leaders and all
(38:26):
kinds of areas to, you know, we the group obviously meets at 6
a.m. and not everyone is a six aperson so it's nice to be able
to bring it to people outside ofthe group as well.
So it's called the six, the number six a m--.
Ers. It's on my shirt.
Excellent. Excellent.
So Sky, What's the best way for people to learn more or connect
(38:47):
with you? Yes.
Okay. Instagram is right now my
platform Of choice. So to follow me on Instagram, it
would be that symbol. My first name, s Kye.
My last name Mich, I Els just atSky Michaels the six a year.
(39:08):
I would love you to also follow that and that is at TH e the
number six, a m--. Ers on Instagram.
And those are the two best channels that I communicate
with. And You know, sort of operate on
cool awesome. As really enjoyed talking with
you and sharing your experience.The this kind of my favorite
(39:28):
show was when you know, a man shares, his experience, and how
he's shiny light and serve in the world now, so great man.
Yeah, I appreciate what you're doing as well.
It's great to bring, you know, the ability to talk about this
stuff and you do not suffer in silence.
Anyone that's listening to this.It's huge.
Don't be silent, you know. Thanks everyone listening.
Thanks for joining us in wherever you're listening to
women. Feel please give a like, a share
(39:50):
or comment. Whatever you can do wherever
you're finding us and did you know that?
There is a private real men? Feel Facebook group.
Well, it's true, and you can join by visiting real men, feel
dot org, slash group. You can also reach out and
connect with me via email, any time you choose real men, feel
at gmail.com and until next time, be good to yourself.
Hello and welcome to real men. Feel this is your host author
coaching speaker, Andy, Grant, please, visit v&e Grant.com to
learn more about me room and feel reminds men that they are
human beings and have the right to experience and express all of
their emotions. It's not that there are some
emotions from man, in some for women you as a human being have
the right to experience the fullrange, we have conversations
(00:21):
that most men aren't having, butthat all men can benefit from,
you know, according to the American Psychological
Association approximately 40 to 50 percent of first.
Marriages end in divorce the divorce rate.
For second marriages is even higher with approximately 60 60
to 67 percent of second. Marriages ending in divorce as
well. And according to a recent survey
(00:41):
of financial professionals, the three leading causes of divorce
are basic incompatibility infidelity, and then money
issues. My guest today is going to fix
all that. My guest is Sky, Michaels sky is
a dad award-winning. Real estate leader, motivational
speaker and host of the 6A a podcast.
Which provides inspiration and motivation, for developing a
(01:02):
healthy mindset setting goals and achieving happiness.
As a divorced, dad of two sky ispassionate about promoting
positive co-parenting and determined to show divorced
couples that have better. Healthier and happier experience
is possible. When a positive co-parenting
relationship is established. Welcome to real man feels guy.
Thank you so much for having me out.
I feel flattered to be here whenwe first spoke you see you
(01:26):
introduced in a way that I'd never heard before.
You said that you are very Happily Divorced.
Forced. I it is it's a term that I think
it shocks people when I use it because those two words
typically are not used together.And I think it's a way to take
counteract, a lot of the shame, and the guilt and the, you know,
(01:47):
the her depends on on, what whatyour role was and the worst for
you go through different things.But the word divorce carries so
much baggage, so much negativityand so much pain, frankly for
all parties. And when you put the word
happily in front of it, it reframes that into divorces
being a noun, right? A divorce is just a thin thing,
(02:10):
a noun, right? And the the putting, the word
happily describes what that nounis.
And we get to reframe that word in a way where we into their, I
instantly try to convey. Hey, I am in a happy situation
right now, right? And by happy I'm I have a
healthy children. I have a healthy exercise A wife
(02:30):
who I am friends with. I have a schedule that works for
both of us, I have open lines ofcommunication where there's a
change, we can communicate aboutit and all those great things
that frankly make up a good marriage.
Awesome makeup. A good divorce and that's the
irony of the whole situation. Yeah.
So is it possible to have a bad marriage but a good divorce?
(02:52):
It's very possible. I think I think you know and
once again I'm sure my ex-wife is going to listen to this.
So yeah we I wouldn't qualify want By our marriages as bad per
se in the sense of like, you know, we had challenges and lots
of challenges like most married couples, but it is very
possible. Have a bad marriage and a good
divorce because sometimes the things that are wrong in a
(03:13):
marriage can be solved in the divorce and that and what you do
is you come back in order to be a happily divorced person.
The first thing you have to do is you have to agree on your
commonality. And for me and my ex-wife are
commonality, were the things that were non-negotiables for
both of us. It was our children, Mackenzie
and Hudson. So when you start from a
(03:36):
position of your, your non-negotiables, right, your
commonality. All right, instead of us
focusing on our differences, thethings we don't agree on, right?
I wake up early, she wakes up late.
I like this kind of food. She likes that kind of food.
I say it's sunny out. She says, it's cloudy out.
Yeah, we could go on and on. And Jeff was focusing on all
(03:57):
those instead. Let's start from our common
standpoint and then from there we can work on the more
challenging things that we need to figure out as we move forward
in this new life and and it's funny Andy because I think you
think of like someone getting engaged and then working towards
a marriage. A divorce is almost the exact
(04:18):
same process. In Reverse you agree.
You get to a point where maybe don't agree but you you announce
we are Getting divorced. And then you work backwards on
doing a lot of the things opposed to you get engaged and
you work forward, you know, creating the household, creating
the common areas, and then you get married.
(04:39):
The divorce is almost the polar opposite where you announce it,
it's almost like you're unprepared easel, so to speak.
And you slowly work your way towards that, perhaps pathway
where you no longer are married couple.
But when you have children, especially, you still share a
common love. Love and a common goal.
So to speak of what you're striving for.
(05:01):
It does being happily divorced. Now mean that the entire divorce
process was smooth and joyous ornot, know now is probably let's
again, similar to like being engaged.
Like you know most people that get in case, there's a lot of
stress involved in getting married.
There's a lot of stress involvedin getting divorced as well, you
know, and and our process was not roses and you know, you
(05:25):
know, Happy in the the where we are today is not where we were
when it first began, you know? And when it first begins.
Yeah and every situation is different.
I called divorce of fingerprint,right?
Everyone situations listening tothis, it's going to be a
different situation for each person and my hope is what you
can do. Is you can pull almost picture
(05:45):
an apple tree. And you can pull one little
apple off, that's going to help you a little bit and that's
really the goal. But our process was definitely
rocking the beginning. In this sense, Out of, there's a
lot of I was the person that made the ultimate decision to
leave. So I call me, I'm called the
lever and she was the one being left, right?
And so each of us play differentroles in that for me.
(06:08):
I experienced a lot of Shame anda lot of guilt and like, you
know, you go through this process where you're struggling
because of the fact you're the one that's making that decision
that you fear a lot of fear, right?
That. Oh my God, I'm going to be the
cause of demise of my family. My children going to hate me or
you your mind runs from my ex-wife.
(06:30):
It's a lot of anger, right? A lot of feeling of not good and
was I not good enough for, you know, this is I don't want to
speak for her but at the end of the day she had her own set of
feelings that she experienced. So you're navigating these
individual feelings that you're going through that rock you,
right? And you're still trying to
figure out, all right, how do weparent now?
(06:52):
How do we divided households? How do we create two new
households? It's money, you know, Furniture
cars, you name it. Everything needs to be decided
what happens. But through it, all, what we did
is, we always kept the two kids as our commonality in our common
point and we always wanted to keep them Above The Fray of what
(07:14):
was happening. So and I'll tell you, if it's
okay, I'll tell you a quick story about the day.
We told them that we were getting divorced.
Now, we didn't use the word divorce, by the way, they were
six and four and Yeah, we had been through a very long process
of therapy and trying and, you know, and we were finding the
point where it was happening. It was moving forward and I
(07:36):
remember, we were in a car and August her driving get school
supplies and we're like, all right, we're going to tell them
in the car. Now, we have been sleeping in
separate bedrooms at this point.So we had a mom's room and a
dad's room. And we're both in the front seat
like sort of crying quietly. You know they can tell we were
crying at sunglasses on and we were so so guys you know, we
have something to tell you You, you know, next month, you know,
(07:58):
we have a mom's room in a dad's room where we're going to have a
mom's house, so the dad's house and they're like, cool.
That's awesome. Hey, we're in the front seat.
Like, look at each other. Like it.
Wait, it should they be like really upset?
And and for some reason like that, there was this moment of
humor didn't really absolve all the sadness and that, you know,
(08:20):
the feelings were going through.But there's a really funny
moment to recall because of the fact that we actually We had
created a world where they did. They were comfortable.
They were happy and for them it was if we were fine with it,
they were fun. You know what I mean?
So, we needed to like lead the way and it was, it was a, it was
a funny moment to say the least.Now, one of the common refrains
(08:43):
I've always heard around. Divorce is, well, let's stay
together for the kids and you'resaying really, well, let's make
a good divorce for the kids. So can is it is stand together
for the kids? Is that a realistic?
Is that actually? Is that a reality for?
One, um, well it's a reality than sense of people do it.
But when you say you're staying together for the kids, you
(09:05):
really have to question what we're always teaching children
lessons. And whether we're speaking it or
acting it, we're teaching. They were watching everything.
We do everything we do and I another story to give you, and
it was one of the formative moments of Y or a pushed me
because I was saying the same thing.
(09:26):
I was like, you know what, we'llstay together for the kids like,
you, when they go to college, we'll figure it out, you know?
Yeah, they added. So not that long, a time.
And I remember one morning, you know, we're eating breakfast and
kids are in the kitchen bar. You know?
And we hugged each other and they're like, yeah, what are you
guys doing? And in my head, I was like, oh
my God, I'm teaching my children.
(09:48):
That intimacy is actually not really, you know, doesn't exist.
They didn't even know what it was like to see us like hug in
that moment. Do you know what I mean?
And I remember that moment probably the rest of my life
because there's one of those really formative moments.
I was like, wow, I'm actually, I'm actually messing them up.
More by, by staying in this because they see me disappear.
(10:09):
Didn't they see her distant? They see us arguing fighting
like the. Oh, so that's what a
relationship is. A relationship is where you yell
at each other. You know, that's not a
relationship, that's not healthy.
That's not the way you deal withproblems and you get, so wrapped
up in your, in your mind, and everything along those lines.
(10:30):
And you tell yourself you're staying together for the kids
but the reality is children know.
And the other reality is the older they get the clue.
More baggage. They're dealing with that then
they could latch on that they were the reason they were.
You know, when they're younger when you're at the point where
you know this is the direction you're going to take and then
(10:50):
you say well 10 more years from now it'll be fine.
You are creating really really -Pathways of learning for your
children in those 10 years whereyou could have an optional,
there's another option out thereto create a happy divorce with
Pathways that allow kids to thrive.
You know, we do all our holidaystogether, we do all our
(11:11):
birthdays together, we do graduations together.
And, you know, I wanted my children to grow up in a world
where they didn't need to fear their mom and dad being in the
same room together or the same event together or, you know,
whatever it might be. So and if I use my experience it
was what I could say to traditional divorce of
(11:32):
bitterness and hatred. And my parents did not get
together. And that any sort of school
assembly Dad's on one side moms on the other side or my from the
front. Dad's in the back of the room
and yeah. And and even talking about
intimacy, so my parents divorced, when I'm about five
years old. So I really have no memories of
them being together, but I do remember being a kid and seeing
my grandparents hug and kiss and, you know, fooling around
(11:54):
with each other, in the kitchen,I was like a gas.
Like, what are these old people doing like, when when does this
start in life? And most this is crazy.
Yeah, exactly it's so funny. You mentioned as the lever as
the initiator divorce you felt Shame and fear and concern about
being hated by your kids. Yeah.
(12:16):
How did you get through that? Like what helped relieve the
shame? Yeah, the well I therapy is the
one. I mean if you are going through
divorce and you don't have a therapist, you are probably
you're not doing the right thingfor yourself.
You know, if you have the means to her therapist or even the
whatever, there's a lot of insurance that covers therapy
(12:37):
now and if you are going to divorce on either, Side and you
don't have someone helping you manage some of your thoughts and
feeling. So, so therapy was the first
thing. We also hired a co-parenting
therapist as well, which was extremely helpful because of the
fact once again we didn't know how do we do this?
What are the boundaries we create?
How do we communicate? What's what's good?
(12:58):
What's bad? So having a third party there to
really help us work through someof these challenges especially
in the beginning days when it was very raw and very tenuous
and very No, there's still a lotof emotion.
The other thing that got me through, it was really becoming
an another, another communist smashing it to words together,
(13:20):
Sunday, I call Healthy selfish, where I got really, really
selfish around my personal health meaning, you know, I was
definitely going in when I was going through the initial
process, I was in a bad place. And, you know, one of my dear
friends, Jake Dreyfus, would he started calling me and texting
me? Five in the morning and I
(13:41):
started getting up at 5:00 in the morning, going to the gym,
working out eating right like doing all these healthy things
and we ultimately formed a groupcalled The Five a and bunch of
us would get up early in the morning and get on a zoom call
sometimes. Anyways, it was a really, really
beautiful group and that's really what helped me is by
(14:01):
realizing that happiness isn't. I can't get happiness from my
ex-wife or my wife at the time. I can't get happiness for my
Children. I can't get happiness for my
parents or coworkers. Happiness.
Only comes from one place and that's me.
And and it was a really I was I grew up you know I people
pleaser as long as everyone elsewas happy I was happy and it
(14:25):
took a very long time to resolvethat that mentality that at the
end of the day, my job is actually to make myself happy in
a healthy way, right? That's why I say healthy
selfish. Not we're not talking about
doing bad things to people. B2B to be selfish.
We're talking about doing the things I hey, and if I'm up at 5
a.m. and my kids are still sleeping and I work out that's
(14:47):
healthy. Yes, it's selfish as well.
So it's one of those things thatyou I developed a routine and a
structure where my health becameone of my number one priorities
because everything began a for me with my physical health and
then be with my mental health orvice versa, you could probably
flip those back and forth or whichever might be.
And, and then now that I've developed this concept, I call
(15:09):
being I'm the light instead of giving life.
So my job is to be the light to myself and that light will shine
really bright and people will be, you know, lit up from that
versus me, trying to give the light and then depleting myself
so much that all I'm doing is giving giving giving.
And then also in turn around andI'm spent and there's going to
(15:30):
be a point where I can't give anymore, right?
So it was a long long process but therapy being healthy,
selfish around your health and around the thing.
That are going to make you healthy, both mentally and
physically. And then really just making sure
I was working on myself to be a better man, better person.
Yeah, I often say that. Selfishness gets a really bad
(15:50):
rap. It does selfishness in the sense
of competitive, set, and taking things so that no, that's not
good. But when you put yourself first
for, I think that's what you teach your children.
That each of us matters not thateverybody else matters more than
us and yeah and again when you're a healthy well-rounded
man and you put yourself first, you're naturally Joy.
Joyous life, you're naturally more full of light, you're of
(16:12):
more service and all of that positive energy spreads.
So you know I love the journey and when your health at least
selfish, you're positively impacting everybody around you.
Exactly. Exactly.
And here's the other thing, as well, is that I also didn't
focus on trying to get better inLeaps and Bounds.
(16:33):
I tried to get better and it's avery common term of like 1%,
right? So I wouldn't measure like, oh
my Like we don't have this beautiful co-parenting
situation, two months after getting divorced.
What I would measure is like, you know, we passed off the kids
in a without an argument. We got a little bit better today
you know we had a challenging discussion without yelling we
(16:55):
got a little bit better today. We you know, we successfully
negotiated like a little bit of a change in the schedule without
it being a big deal, we got a little bit better and I think
that's other thing is like we, especially in today's society,
Society were being bombarded with social media, and images of
perfection, and all this stuff that we create this, like, big
(17:16):
gap. And where we should, we think we
should be versus taking a look behind as being like.
Wow, we've come a long way. Do you know what I mean?
And that, that was the other thing only comparing ourselves
to our past selves is the one ofthe best comparison you can make
exactly. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So. So with things like positive
co-parenting, and conscious uncoupling.
(17:39):
Does that mean the bitter divorces are just a thing of the
past or do you still see them happen?
You know unfortunately well unfortunately they're going to
be with us forever in many ways.You know.
I wish I could say we could wavea magic wand and any person that
decided to get divorced would have the same positive messaging
that we give marriage. We give a similar positive
(18:03):
messaging to divorce in the sense of not to say we're
advocating for it. But to say that sense it, when
you make That decision. We're going to approach it in
this healthy way, right? Instead you know unfortunately
we have divorce lawyers that I'mnot there.
Some great lawyers out there. This is not a criticism of the
profession of the trade but unfortunately a lawyer's job is
(18:25):
usually to win for their client.And if you're working with a
divorce lawyer who doesn't put your children first, I would
recommend not working with that person.
And then number two what we tried to create or, you know,
was the When meaning okay, like I'm going to give up maybe some
Financial here but you're going to I'm going to also gain here
(18:46):
or whatever it might be. And I think that's the other key
thing is recognizing that there are no winners or losers in
divorce. There's only human beings and
divorce. And and I think we got to
reframe the mindset of like oh I'm going to make that person
pay, right? If you're the one that was hurt,
I'm going to make him pay or herpay.
(19:07):
If you were the one that was leaving, like oh, I'm going to
try to To protect and hide and you do as much as I can to know
you. Hey, you guys both both people
created where you were today andwhat are you going to do to move
forward and in a healthy way? The other thing as well is might
get, like I said in the beginning, my kids were my
number one priority a healthy ex-wife.
(19:31):
You know, if she was healthy andhappy, that's the best thing for
my children. So if I'm, you know, screwed her
over from with money, or you do,Anything like that.
What does that say about me as afather and a man, right?
So my goal was to say, if, if you are good, there's nothing
better for my children than havetheir mother in a beautiful
(19:51):
space, you know. And that was the other decision.
I think you need to make. If you keep your, if your
children are number one priority, your partner needs to
be taken care of in some way right?
You know, and it might not be, you know, Monday, maybe it's not
financially, maybe it's emotionally.
Maybe it's with a schedule change, maybe whatever it might
be, but the if both people adoptthe mindset that, hey, healthy
(20:15):
father, or a healthy mother is the best thing for my kids from,
from the moment. You said, I'm leaving to the
time that you could say, wow, weare happily divorced.
But like, how long does that process?
How about, how long was that? It was a long time today.
We as November of 2016, it was the first time we were in a
(20:36):
massive argument week before Thanksgiving And it was the
first I'd been in therapy up until that point.
And is the first time that I wasfinally have the courage to say,
listen, I'm done at that point, we gave it one more shot with
another, you know, we got after long discussion were like,
alright, let's give it one more shot, we did hire another
therapist, you know, and we gaveit a little more time and it
(20:59):
just it was I was done at that point, you know what I mean?
I couldn't like deny it anymore,fake it or you know, hope to be
Hope to change. It just wasn't going to change
and Probably I would say is, youknow, we always even at when we
separated we did the holidays together and they in the
(21:21):
beginning it was a little tenuous, you know, going to her
family's place or my, you know, everyone was walking on
eggshells a little bit and here was the Turning Point.
The turning point was when I started to own the divorce
versus blame for the divorce youknow and in many ways like and
you know, I could sit here on this call and say oh well she
(21:43):
did and this is what I would do,we got divorce but this is you
know this is what happened and this is what happened and I was
pushing the blame on her you know.
And I it's a concept. I read in a book, I camera which
book but it's 100 to 0. It was the concept.
I wish I could remember the bookto give whoever wrote it the
credit, but when I took a hundred percent responsibility
(22:04):
for my actions and there's zero responsibility for on her side,
right? Was the moment that I started to
be able to like overcome it and actually, I own my role and say,
you know what, like, yeah, thereare things that happen.
But you know what, I was the onethat did, you know, sort of
withdrew into work. I was one that didn't want to
come home. I was one that, you know, slept
(22:25):
in, separate bedrooms out. Yeah.
And I own my role. And then that was the moment.
I think that we started to like start to Ed forward, into that
zone of Happiness outside, you know, in the beginning, it's not
happiness, you feel, it's reliefa little bit right?
That there's progress. And slowly, that relief will
(22:45):
turn into happiness or hopefullywill turn into happiness.
That's the goal. So it sounds like, you know,
they're there were problems. You both worked on trying to
save the marriage. Keep it going.
Yeah. What made you know this is the
end, you know, it's great question.
(23:06):
There there is no one definitivemoment because of the fact there
were definitely certain challenges and issues you know
out of privacy for my ex-wife like what I don't want to go
into it. Do you know what I mean?
I'll just say they were. There are challenges that we
both experienced will say that, right?
And at the end of the day we work through a lot of those
(23:28):
challenges, you know. And so there wasn't like this
one definitive moment for me where I was like oh Oh like I'm
done because you'd have a challenge you worked through it.
You're like okay maybe and then you have a challenge and you're
like I'm out and they're like okay we'll work through it.
Maybe you know so it was probably it was the death of a
thousand moons more. So right where it was just like
(23:51):
cut he had just enough Cuts where you finally were like.
Okay, it's over and they're a little moments, of course like
like my kids, you know, seeing us be intimate and other things.
But it was really just the the slow build-up of Little things
over time to where I finally gotto the point.
And the biggest thing was havinga therapist as well, help me
(24:12):
with my feelings of working through that, you know, of guilt
and like, how do I want? I don't want to be in this
situation anymore but I don't know how to do it.
And, finally, getting to the point where I was built up
enough to have the courage to leave, you know what I mean?
So may seem obvious, but I want to, I want to ask this for the,
(24:33):
for the benefit of someone that's divorced is in a
situation. In just thinks this is how it
always is. So what are some signs that
you're not? And a great co-parenting
divorce? Hmm sighs you're on a good
co-parenting is when you're a your children are comfortable
with you being in the same space, right?
(24:53):
That's if you know, your kids get nervous or anxious or when
you two are in the same space. That's a number one sign.
The second sign is when you're not flexible, now you There's a
difference between having clear boundaries and then being
flexible, right? So, for example, I travel for
(25:13):
work, I train around the country.
So there are times where I'll call my ex-wife and be like,
hey, can you, you know, how to schedule to watch them On A
Tuesday? Can you switch it Tuesday for a
Thursday? Now, her boundary is to say no,
I can't do that. And I'm okay with that.
If she says, I can't do that, you know?
Because we've already have an agreement laid out.
(25:34):
But if she's just sitting home, Home doing nothing and she has
the ability to make the switch, and it doesn't impact her in any
way. That's a sign that when you are
doing things, just out of spite.That's not a healthy
co-parenting situation. Now, you can vary.
You can maintain your boundarieswith zero, guilt or zero.
It's my responsibility to get coverage on my nights.
(25:58):
Do you know what I mean? But, I always want to use her as
my first resource because I'd rather my kids are with her then
a babysitter. Know what I mean, but she has
the absolute right to say, no, but she's only saying no out of
anger or spite. That's a sign that your.
So, if you're doing things out of anger and spite, you're
probably not in a healthy co-parenting situation.
(26:19):
And, you know, the, the probably, the third thing I
would say is when you argue overinconsequential or meaningless
things, You left you you didn't drop the kids soccer gear off
your horrible. There you're there right now is
the people forget. Yeah, I didn't drop the kids
(26:40):
soccer think. Yeah, it's frustrating.
I'm frustrated. All right.
Go you know, here are the keys to the house car I'm gonna run
home from work or whatever, right.
But when Little Things become, you know, big things are in a
really inconsequential that's why your third sign that you
need to do some work within yourco-parenting because your
children, see all this, right? Right?
(27:00):
They see it all. You know?
So it's a situation where there's so many resource.
Not so many, there are resourcesout there and I would highly
recommend it. That if you've never seen a
co-parenting therapist, find a co-parenting therapist.
Have a third party. The reality is, we're still
dealing with our scars from the marriage, right?
(27:21):
We're still bringing those forward.
So it really is helpful with a third party.
Can say listen, here's what I'd advise you do.
Here's your schedule. So you create boundaries, right?
On whatever the advice is you get doesn't mean you need to
listen to it. Exactly.
Right. But it just means there's
someone not that isn't carrying the scars that you guys, both
(27:43):
carry forward that can give you that advice.
And that's so it's a great question of the signs of when
you're not in a healthy co-parenting situation, what are
those sons? And once again just, you know,
me and my ex, we still have little things that come up,
she'll get frustrated, if I did change the night, you know?
We're still human beings and we still have a motion, right?
(28:04):
And but we can recover from thatvery quickly, or recognize, when
we're doing it and be like, okay, my bad like that, that's
really not a big deal. Let me, let me just drop the
soccer stuff off, you know. So, so, what I've heard so far
for, for some tips to create this positive co-parenting
relationship, start off by getting the commonalities
(28:26):
agreement on that, and you different recommend therapy and
ideally, it's It's a co parenting expert.
Correct. Yeah.
And any other any other tips to make that process as smooth as
it can be? Yeah, I read the book conscious
uncoupling and now for me was very impactful.
I would highly recommend people read that book if it's something
that, that would, you know, resonate with you.
(28:49):
And I think the other thing is, like, figure out what makes you
happy, and make sure you're doing things that make you
happy, within the context of notharming, anyone, you know, I
mean, so that's going to, you know, on a vacation to Florida
makes you happy and you're therefor a month, that's not what I'm
talking about. Not escapism, but exactly
(29:12):
perfect terminology, but doing the things like making sure, you
know, our bodies healthy. I'm you know, hanging out my
friends, I have relationships with my family, you know, the
things have really fuel your, your, your life and your
happiness, definitely, it's really critical when you go
through this process. Not too high.
They're not to not to withdraw, but to really Embrace those
(29:33):
things that do create the happiness.
And when you're in there, never try your hardest to not talk ill
will of your partner. Do you know?
And and reframe, you know, it's one of those funny things that
language is so powerful. Like, I even try not to even use
the word ex-wife. Do you know what I mean?
Because it won't that X, right? There's almost like a negativity
(29:55):
to that. So in often like I'll call her
my partner, you know, And that'sreally the more appropriate
terminology. She's my partner in my kids, you
know? And that's it.
All right, so if I asked your partner, if you were a great
ex-husband, what would she say 95% of time, I think she would
(30:16):
say oh he's the best. I think the five percent and you
know my schedule is a little hectic, you know I can
definitely I'm a person that cando a lot.
Like I'm also not a planner I can like be like oh yeah well
I'm going to the beach with the kids this weekend she's like oh
what weight you know not that infact of it, she's once again
(30:37):
these are our differences so those are the little things that
you would probably say I could get better on is a little more
organization, a little more planning and a little more
structure. But 95 I would my argument would
be that she would call me a great ex-husband in the sense of
you know 95% of what she would want me to be, I am.
(30:59):
Yeah. It's at five.
That's that's that's that's a strong.
Hey, yeah. I think of us as an ex-husband.
Let's not call her on the phone.Now, kidding.
And what was, what was wonderingtime?
I got to talk to someone that's that's been divorced.
You, especially recently divorced, does this turn you off
against ever being married again?
(31:21):
Um it's a good question on a personal level and this is just
for me personally like I don't have any desire to get married
again in the sense of you know IV of being in a relationship
does not mean marriage and I think there are certain e.m.
This there certain societal things that feel heavy with
(31:42):
marriage to me and probably thisis my scars bringing forward.
So I think there's a difference between being in a relationship
and being married. So for me, personally, at this
stage My life, I have no desire to be married again.
You know, yes, desire to be in arelationship again for sure, but
not to be married again. You know, in my mind, you know,
I don't need a ring or a piece of paper to determine what my
(32:07):
feelings or actions are going tobe.
That's makes sense. So and we've touched on sheer
sheer, making up words, shame and fear.
I've combined them into sugar, huh?
I'm still here. This means that.
What do you see and based on your experience and what you see
in others? What are the biggest challenges?
(32:29):
What are some of the biggest challenges for divorced men?
Biggest challenge for divorce. Men is the typically there's a
world where there's not a lot ofsupport for.
There's all that support period,but for men especially there's
usually very little support. He's usually very, you know, few
(32:50):
groups, It depends on your your,you know, social group.
Sometimes there might not be other men that are divorced,
that, you know, or if you do, they might not be the best
person to talk to, right about it.
Maybe they're not healthily divorced or happily divorced.
So I think the challenge for most men is that you you sort of
suffer in silence. I was very lucky in the sense.
(33:13):
I had some really, really dear friends that were.
We're also divorced in the healthy, you know, healthy way.
But also gave me really good advice.
Along the Way and were there when I needed them to, hey, I
just need to grab a beer with you and talk about what I'm
feeling, right? So being able to find the couple
people that are very healthy foryou, and then your Outlets is
key and it allows you to form that healthy thing.
(33:36):
But the chat biggest challenges are most men, suffer in silence
in your teaching and your coaching world, you talked a lot
about leading with kindness. Yeah, I'm gonna chain.
Can you explain that a bit? Yeah, yeah.
So one of my mottos I have Is that, you know, my mission in
life is to show that love and kindness is a source of power
(33:57):
and strength, meaning and are inour world traditionally.
Like we see if you use the word power and strength, you
typically would have you big muscular male, you know, maybe
seal wrestler, you know, something really big and
dominant but the reality is who who's actually moved the world.
It's a people that have used love and kindness to create
(34:19):
massive levels of power and strength.
Gandhi the, you know, Mohandas Gandhi, he defeated the British
Empire, right? A mini, think about it.
And how did he do it? He did it through love and
kindness, you know, and Martin Luther King changed, you know,
civil rights in this country you.
So you look back in history and and the people that use power
(34:43):
and strength in The Brute sense will always always have fallen
out of power. Have always Have been defeated,
have always been sort of put down or put out, and it's a
people that have used loving-kindness have created
lasting change. And that's, I think one of the
things that I come back to that in all of our settings, marriage
(35:07):
career business, you know, the world politics.
If we can get to this point where we recognize that loving
kindness like when I'm loving and kind and towards other
people that actually is a sourceof strength and creates power
versus when I'm trying to Bulldog someone or you know push
them under or defeat them or whatever might be using brute
(35:30):
power and strength that might work short-term but eventually
it's going to either come back on me or it's going to just
consume me one of the two. So when you use love and
kindness you can run for infinite you know, for Infinity
into the change that you can create and the power and
strength you can generate because of the fact that love
(35:51):
and This if it goes back into that, be the light concept
loving-kindness is when you can be the light, right?
And emanate that and that light instead of just shining in One
Direction goes everywhere. So it's sort of a philosophy.
I like to live by and as for a philosophy that like to sort of
push out there for Business Leaders and politicians or
(36:12):
anyone that listens to me, it's something that I sort of
preached. So and again, that that healthy
selfishness helps you tap into that Limitless.
Light that we do have the ability to tap into.
So right go ahead and I'm going to give you a tell me about your
podcast met with the 6 a.m. Yeah so so I work I'm my my role
my career right now. I'm the head of agent
(36:33):
development for a real estate company called Compass which is
the number one National brokerage.
We have about 30,000, people allacross the country.
My job is basically my day job will call it is to design
training curriculum and deliver that to real estate agents
across the Virtually and in person in the pandemic, when the
(36:55):
pandemic it in April, or May I'msorry, March of 2020.
You know, we're all knocked downat home and I was just like,
frustrated by it and eating unhealthy, drinking binge
watching TV etcetera. So I got a little frustrating.
I basically just resurrected, you know, some of the practices
we use in the five a and I launched the six, a just in my
(37:17):
local office, you know it about 50 agents, sign up.
We're all home. We had And no reason to wake up
at 6 a.m. but we are all startedjust waking up early and then
getting on the zoom call and chatting and talking right and
creating a community and then every month since then the
organization just there the community, I should say just
started to spread all across thecountry.
(37:38):
So we would be doing these Zoom calls and it's one of those
funny things I look back and I'mlike, wait a minute after a
couple years. I'm like I have hours and hours
of beautiful interviews with some powerful people.
I To make sure that this gets out there into the world.
So we basically went my co-host,Emily basara and I we went and
we recorded the intros and exits, 4424 of the episodes.
(38:03):
We're going to be going out in about a month or so to
California record season 2 and what we do is pay.
So just take our morning interviews, not all of them.
We curate, the, the ones that wefeel are the most powerful and
then we record the eggs, intros,and exits.
And then we're releasing those in the podcast and it's been an
awesome. Situation to be able to bring
authors and business people. And you know, leaders and all
(38:26):
kinds of areas to, you know, we the group obviously meets at 6
a.m. and not everyone is a six aperson so it's nice to be able
to bring it to people outside ofthe group as well.
So it's called the six, the number six a m--.
Ers. It's on my shirt.
Excellent. Excellent.
So Sky, What's the best way for people to learn more or connect
(38:47):
with you? Yes.
Okay. Instagram is right now my
platform Of choice. So to follow me on Instagram, it
would be that symbol. My first name, s Kye.
My last name Mich, I Els just atSky Michaels the six a year.
(39:08):
I would love you to also follow that and that is at TH e the
number six, a m--. Ers on Instagram.
And those are the two best channels that I communicate
with. And You know, sort of operate on
cool awesome. As really enjoyed talking with
you and sharing your experience.The this kind of my favorite
(39:28):
show was when you know, a man shares, his experience, and how
he's shiny light and serve in the world now, so great man.
Yeah, I appreciate what you're doing as well.
It's great to bring, you know, the ability to talk about this
stuff and you do not suffer in silence.
Anyone that's listening to this.It's huge.
Don't be silent, you know. Thanks everyone listening.
Thanks for joining us in wherever you're listening to
women. Feel please give a like, a share
(39:50):
or comment. Whatever you can do wherever
you're finding us and did you know that?
There is a private real men? Feel Facebook group.
Well, it's true, and you can join by visiting real men, feel
dot org, slash group. You can also reach out and
connect with me via email, any time you choose real men, feel
at gmail.com and until next time, be good to yourself.
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