February 10, 2023 • 44 mins
Before we get going, I want to warn everyone that we will discuss suicide attempts today. If you are in crisis right now - please get help.
Text or call 988 in the US. Help is available 24 hours a day. For other countries, visit https://findahelpline.com/ for options near you.
The goal of this episode is that our shared experiences as suicide attempt survivors offers hope and encouragement to others, to you. We also want to raise awareness about the importance of mental health and suicide prevention.
The World Health Organization estimates that 800,000 people die by suicide each year. That number is undoubtedly underreported.
In 2020, it is estimated that 1.2 million people attempted to end their life, and what isn't talked about enough is that millions of people go on to live full, healthy lives after attempts.
My guest today is Herbie Mack. Herbie was born and raised in the South Bronx of New York, where he saw drug abuse and gang violence and experienced family trauma that caused him depression as a child, teenager, and adult. This led Herbie to become a functional alcoholic for over 11 years due to his inability to express his emotions effectively.
Herbie was unaware of the signs of suicide ideation, which led to him attempting suicide multiple times. After his last attempt and years of healing, he decided not to keep his suicide attempts to himself.
Topics and Questions
- 2:26 - Why multiple attempts?
- 3:20 - What were you trying to end?
- 4:00 - How do you define a suicide attempt?
- 5:28 - Herbie's story.
- 10:43 - Andy's experience.
- 13:38 - Forgiveness was the hardest thing.
- 16:45 - A cry for help.
- 19:52 - Did you need to experience multiple attempts?
- 22:03 - How long has it been since your last attempt?
- 22:17 - Do the thoughts return for you?
- 23:30 - How do you keep hope and healing after your attempt?
- 25:06 - What's the best part of being alive?
- 26:10 - Any advice for someone who has made an attempt and is alone?
- 27:40 - Any tips for someone who has found a loved one who made a suicide attempt?
- 28:40 - Andy's seven tips following an attempt.
- 30:42 - The weakest thing.
- 35:36 - Tell me about your podcast.
- 37:22 - Herbie asks Andy how his road to recovery was.
- 43:43 - What's the best way for people to learn more and connect with you?
Links
Herbie Mack -- https://herbiemack.com/
Recommended Books: 200 Powerful Positive Affirmations Vol1, Volume 2, and Still Here: How To Succeed in Life After Failing at Suicide.
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Interested in a Clarity Call with Andy? - visit theandygrant.com/talk
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @andyfgrant
Personal Website | theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Podcast Website | re
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Greetings, and welcome to real men.
Feel, this is your host author, coach, and Taylor, and e-grant.
You can learn more about me by visiting.
The integrand.com real men. Feel is here to remind men that
they are human beings and they have the right to experience and
express all of their emotions. We have conversations that most
men aren't having. But that all men can benefit
from now before we get going today, I want to warn everyone
(00:23):
that we will be discussing suicide attempts.
If you are in crisis right now, don't listen get Help text or
call 988 and the United States, there's help available 24 hours
a day for other countries. Please visit find a helpline.com
for options near you. So, again, text or call 988 or
(00:44):
visit find a helpline. All one word.com, the goal of
this episode is that our shared experiences as suicide, attempt
survivors, offers, hope and encouragement to others, perhaps
to you and raises awareness about the importance of mental,
health and suicide. Prevention, the World Health
Organization estimates that 800,000 people die by Suicide
(01:06):
each year. And that number is surely an
underreported number in 2020 alone.
It is estimated at one point twomillion people made an attempt
to end their life. What isn't talked about enough
in my mind is that millions of people go on to live a full
healthy lives after making it attempt.
My guest today is her bmac Herbie was born and raised in
(01:28):
the South Bronx of New York where he saw A drug abuse and
gang violence in experienced family.
Trauma that caused him to oppression as a child teenager
and adult this. Let her be to become a
functional alcoholic for over 11years due to an inability to
express his emotions. Effectively Herbie was unaware
of the signs of suicide ideationwhich led him to attempting
suicide multiple times. After his last attempt and years
(01:51):
of healing, he decided not to keep his suicide attempts to
himself Herbies. Now using his story and
experience to advocate for suicide.
Prevention awareness, teach the signs Of suicide ideation and
normalizing asking for help. Welcome to real men feel Herbie.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it. Andy.
And I really want to take a moment to Appreciate and give
(02:15):
respect for the fact that we areboth alive.
We both tried to make that not be true.
I often joke about when I tell my stories that I was I was a
slow learner and it took me multiple you know, so-called
failed attempts to realize. All right?
Maybe I'm supposed to be here, maybe I'm supposed to be alive.
So I wonder it was that, was that a part of your thinking,
(02:36):
why why you kept making attemptsto do?
But like, what, why multiple I was hurt.
I was hurt during my, my journey, I was going through so
many emotions and as a man, theynever really changed me how to
express those emotions, right? Anyways, he expressed it.
If you you know, drink or if you, you know, do something
(02:59):
extreme like exercising like waytoo much or just not even
talking about your feelings. So during this time, I was
hurting, I didn't know how to express myself.
I didn't know how to Act like a human was more like a robot and
I was just feeling numb and I just wanted the Pain to End.
So it was in your experience is primarily an emotional pain, was
(03:22):
there physical pain as well? Like what was your experience of
that you're trying to end? Emotional.
Yeah, more emotional, just the things of of not experiencing
love right, from from people that I look up to, and I didn't
know how to love myself. I'm looking for love in all the
(03:44):
wrong places, and not having that moment to love myself.
I was just like, wood, what am Idoing here?
And, before we get to further, Iwant to ask you.
And, and this, if this is different then, and now please
Make it clear. But how do you define a suicide
attempts? How do I defined it aside for
(04:06):
help? That's it.
When I was when I was in my teens and 20s and making
multiple attempts, I only counted it.
Like I had made an attempt if I ended up in the hospital.
Like, if I try, if I, if no one found me, if I didn't like hurt
myself enough to matter, I don'teven count that.
So that get, that's kind of whatI meant.
Like, would 10. Know you all know, what did you
(04:27):
have to do to consider yourself that?
Like, wow, I made an attempt on my life.
What what what? What was there?
A barrier to cross to make that true for you at all?
Yes, it was a it was multiple barriers a, my journey.
I every attempt I tried I counted and that was just trying
(04:49):
to you the extreme to make the pain in, right?
I don't want to give anybody anyideas, but doing the extreme to
just say, I want this hurt the end.
I want to stop feeling empty inside, I want to stop feeling
Not love and not loving myself. I just want I just want to stop.
(05:09):
Yeah, that's my experience. When a lot of people I talk to.
I didn't necessarily want to die.
I wanted what I was experiencingto stop.
Yes yes. For sure.
If you want I can give my story if that's up to you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Share.
Share what you want to share right now?
Sure sure appreciate it. So I'm just going to give a
trigger warning for those. Waking up to the sound of
(05:33):
someone, being it at my door, asI opened the door.
I realized this, my ex-girlfriend, she's like,
herpes. Why do you look like that?
Why do you smell like that? Hello.
Are you going to answer me the whole time?
I'm trying to decide if I shouldtell her the truth because every
male told me I can't be weak. I can't be vulnerable.
I have to man up She these words, I love you.
(05:54):
I'm here for you. So I decided to tell the truth.
This is the third day in a row. I attempted suicide and honestly
would have been a fourth of you didn't come knocking and soon as
she starts crying. She hands me her phone and tells
me to call the suicide prevention Lifeline number.
So I did has I'm on the phone. I'm speaking to the counselor
she said sir on a scale of one to ten, how do you feel today?
(06:17):
As I replied - tend to be honestwith you, this is the first time
in my life. I don't trust myself by myself.
So she recommended check myself and said Behavior Health Center.
So I did as I'm never getting evaluated by a couple of nurses.
In one of the male nurses, stopped me and said, look, I
don't know if you believe in Godor not, but I've been doing this
for years. You don't belong here.
God's going to use you to share your story and touch out the
(06:40):
lives at the moment. I had no idea what he's talking
about. To be honest with you.
I just wanted my pillow my blanket and cry.
No. No one thinks about attempting
suicide to let alone. Being in a place like this few
moments passed by, I'm getting evaluated by the psychiatrist.
He just glances that. My phallus is take this, as
something said Herbie, this doesn't feel right speak up.
(07:01):
It doesn't feel right? So I did take what, what am I
taking this for? He glances that my Fallon says,
oh, you're from the Bronx. I know people from the Bronx
have a low IQ. I can't really read and write
that. Well, I just want to put this
out there. When people do lady was that,
you please tell them labels are made for jars.
Not people. Since he didn't want to
communicate with me nor care to.I went right back to that same
(07:24):
male. Nurses said, look man I don't
trust that guy. Is there anything I can do to
empower my mental health? He said.
Yeah, try journaler, I'm gonna give you a notepad and a pen.
Oh well a pencil. So I'm drawing in a realizing,
the trigger of my depression wasmy parents.
The fact that they didn't teach me how to love myself.
Here I am dating. Someone else hoping that they
(07:45):
could teach me how to love myself.
It sounds ridiculous every time I think about it.
As I kept drilling, I realize I was a functioning alcoholic
here. I am drinking to numb my pain.
Instead of understanding my page, a few days passed by have
to see another psychiatrist. She's like, Herbie, why are you
not taking the prescription? We provide for you, we believe
(08:09):
you're bipolar one. And I was like, I was first time
I heard it. The first psychiatrist never
said anything, just told me to take this, so she gives me a
couple of tests and after hour or two, I passed everything.
She's like, okay. Everything's fine.
You don't seem like you have bipolar, you just seem like
you're depressed. So do me a favor.
I'm going to release you, but you have to go seek therapy.
(08:31):
And I'm going to be honest with you.
I was broke so therapy. I was like, I can't afford that.
That guy home. I typed in how to love yourself
on cou, cou discovered somethingcalled positive affirmations.
Never heard of it a day in my life, but since I was in dire
needs, I was like, oh well. Imma Be extreme with the I put
sticky notes everywhere from themirror to the bathroom, to my
(08:53):
bedroom, to my refrigerator, to even in my car.
A few days passed by some of my friends found out that I was
having suicidal ideation and I attempted, so they want their
cheer me up by taking me out since my nickname was anything
possible for the fact that I love Hennessy so much.
But I discovered something called Boundaries, look, bro.
(09:15):
I love you. I can't go out with you because
when I start drinking, I turned into that Incredible Hulk, and I
can't control that, man. They didn't get it, but they
respected. So, I kept journaling, and as I
started journaling, I discoveredsomething called forgiveness.
You see I did forget, my parentswere not teaching me how to love
myself due to the fact of they lost a daughter who died of
(09:37):
brain cancer. I lost a sister who died of
brain cancer so they was depressed.
Then I had to forgive myself fortrying to damage my body and
trying to end my life because I was depressed.
And I also started doing something.
I've never done before, I lookedin the mirror, so I can tell
myself, you are loved. You are smart.
(09:58):
You can't change the world only if you just believe.
So, I got the first marker, I found, and I wrote on my mirror,
as big as I can just believe Butthose who are ever wondering
about that ex-girlfriend, I cameknocking on my door, she's not
my wife. She blessed me with two amazing
(10:20):
kids. You see?
I shared this story every time because I personally went from
hopelessness to happiness Duringthis journey, I know it's very
challenging and it can be difficult but I just want to
provide hope for others. Thank you for allowing.
Just need to share a little partof my story.
Awesome. And thank you for your bravery
(10:40):
and willingness to do so. You know, I firmly believe that
the way we prevent suicide is bytalking about suicide because
of, so my attempts were began inmy early teens and the only
place I heard anyone else, talk about feeling suicidal was in a
mental hospital, which made it seem even crazier that I'm just,
you know, nobody thinks this wayand unfortunately, most people
(11:03):
have the thought And something Ilearned early on was that, you
know well it's just a thought and a thought can be changed and
they can take effort. That's why positive affirmations
work. In my experience.
You it gives you a new thought to focus on and repeat and even
if you keep coming back to a shitty old thought time and time
again, you just means you're so used to it.
So tape that make that effort. But I've written two books on
(11:24):
affirmations and I love them toobecause they're, yeah, they're
free. Yes, you everyone.
You can have a mirror and doing them with more work.
Like I remember when I first started like, Ah, I think was
like, 2006. And I tried to like I couldn't
even hold eye contact with myself in a mirror.
I was so disgusted with myself and Dad discovering self-love
(11:44):
like, what does that mean? That now then would they were
foreign words to me. So, right there with you, man.
And and the Forgiveness aspect to.
So, my attempts were spread overmultiple years.
And I remember, I did this holotropic breathwork experience
where you kind of really go in this altered state and this
inner wisdom and healer takes over. / and I was bawling and
(12:05):
sobbing at the beauty of life and that I try to thrown it
away. And after it, it was the first
time I realized like, wow, I've survived attempted murder and it
was from me. So, I, again, that forgiveness
you talk about is Sookie. I don't get talked about enough.
So, you know, one of the first things I find most beneficial,
if you've made an attempt to endyour life and you're alive first
(12:26):
like, forgive yourself for whatever brought you there,
forgive yourself for that decision, and be grateful that
you survived it. And I've met some people that
made an attempt. It didn't work, and they like,
huh, you know, they see the light and praise God, I'm alive
and they never really met. They're on the path.
They like their feel good from then on.
But some of you are saying you did three days in a row so you
(12:48):
didn't have that experience of like, yep, didn't work.
That means I'm spoiled and I wasthe same way again.
I was this really so I was good in school but I was stupid as
hell when it came to life. Yeah.
I kept having to test it and like, am I really supposed to be
here an hour? Supposed to be here.
And finally, for me, it wasn't until I had, I had tried to kill
(13:08):
myself using a means that had already not worked.
So, I'm doing the same thing over the definition of insanity,
right? I'm doing the same thing over
expecting a different result andI find like there's got to be a
reason, like why? So for me I found out and I know
you got there to being of service somehow.
Sharing your pain, makes your pain better and can help others
(13:30):
as well. Yeah, you know for myself man it
was so much that you you talked about.
Myself, the Forgiveness part wasthe hardest thing.
Great. I didn't know how to forgive not
to say. I'm a bitter person.
It was just like the expectations that you have as a
(13:53):
kid is like man. I'm gonna grow up and going to
go to achieve all these dreams and expectations are so high.
I'm going to reach it all by theage of like 25 and then when you
turn 25 you're like wait wait wait, life is a way harder than
what I thought it would be and Ihad to learn.
What does that look like? And every day I struggle with
(14:14):
that struggle with it, for a minimum of three years.
And then, one day, I got inspired, I got a picture of
myself, it's in my office, I'm like three years old, and I had
to write a love letter to forgive that three-year-old,
right? Like, hey, I'm sorry for
everything that you've been through.
Sorry that you didn't receive the love that you wanted to as a
(14:37):
child. I'm sorry for everything.
And if you feel like nobody was there, I Apologize for that and
I read that letter, I said on that letter probably no, two to
six months. And then I went back into like
that kid mindset. And I wrote a letter saying
thank you. Thank you for for being there
(14:59):
now. And all of that letter was just
allow me to forgive everything that I had experience.
Allowed me to forgive the journey that I went through.
And then I think you let everything.
Thank you for being there. Now, we're going to grow up to
be the man that we can be, and we will be and we could do it
together, not just helped me so much and I didn't want to share
(15:21):
my story. Not because I'm embarrassed or
anything like that. I don't want to share my story.
Due to the fact of, you know, it's something taboo.
We don't, we don't talk about it, you know, in my community,
in the black community, we don'ttalk about attempts.
We are talk about mental health,you say, you want to end your
life, then they W, as you said, crazy.
(15:43):
Quote, unquote. And I didn't, obviously, I don't
want anybody to pick on me, right?
Because mentally, I'm recoveringfrom a temp, and I don't know if
I'm strong enough to to, to takeon that.
And after the experience of dealing with that, that
psychiatrists who is no longer in the field.
Think thankfully, he had his license.
(16:05):
Revoked, I really just sat there, and I was just like, you
know what? Let me just go and go go, and
just look at the numbers of attempts, how many people
actually survived. And then when I saw the That the
sad numbers of how many people die every year.
I got to help. I gotta say something just
(16:28):
because I can potentially save one person.
Maybe they might just say, he'llwait, there's hope.
And that's when I started sharing my stories once I went.
And I saw the numbers I was justlike, oh my like this is, this
is a real thing. I didn't know that, you know,
Yeah, I'm always amazed that often a suicide attempt refer to
(16:48):
called. It's a cry for help.
And it said I've heard that usedlike as a relative.
I sort of like it's just a cry for help yet if a building is on
fire and I'm fire fire. That's a cry for help.
And people pay attention that they don't make a, that's just
fire. But but for somehow a Swiss m is
again, there's this all this stigma and shame built into it.
(17:09):
And and I've always thought thatif there's kind of You know,
we're all one energy and whatever religion, you are,
typically the most people recognize that there's some sort
of business sense of Oneness. And there's this, there's this
soul of a bond that we're all inthis together and somehow, one
person opting out intentionally trying to end their life.
I think it just disrupts us so much.
(17:31):
It's beyond words, even as the sense of like, wait a minute,
you you can't do that. We're in this together was
supposed to get, we're on the same team, what's happening?
And I always thought that. Kind of how suicide can seem to
like spread through a community.It's that seeing someone take
that action, it almost like makes everyone go inside and go.
Well if if they went that dark, am I that dark as well?
(17:55):
Like am I just one bad circumstance away from doing
that myself and I can when I think it's so important to talk
about it because the more you talk about him realize, oh you
feel that same way, do you feel that same?
Oh, you went through this last year?
Like oh, we are all together. All right, but it's when when we
get ice, Isolated and withdrawn only to ourselves that's when
that's when we're at our weakest.
(18:15):
Yes, exactly. It's one of the things that I
want to normalize the conversation.
Let's break the stigma, right? If it's a crime, I think people
look at it, like, oh, it's a cryfor help because they can't see
it. Like, as you said in an example
of the house, burning or the building burning people can see
it. So let's go, let's help us help.
(18:36):
But they can't see it because it's a mental thing, right?
It's mentally. It's not something that's
displayed. Like, if I break my arm, you can
see that. But you can't see that on the
inside. I'm broken or I feel broken or I
have a broken heart or I feel like I'm worthy.
Not worthy. But I'm I've hopelessness right.
And that people don't get it waslike, oh well, I'm having a bad
day too and it's like, it's not a bad day that I'm having.
(19:00):
I'm having a moment where I don't know if I'm going to make
it to tomorrow in some people may be overwhelmed by that.
Yeah, yeah. Own anyone like well, we'll do
what do you mean? You know, and they made walk
away. Some people may call 911 and I
think if we normalize it we can actually teach others.
Oh hey. There's a simple number that you
(19:21):
can call 988, if you're uncomfortable, they have a text
line as well. You can text it out it.
So just just doing that. I can see it a lot especially
ever since the the whole world changes is 20/20.
Now, people understand when someone is struggling mentally
like, oh man, I'm on lockdown, Ican't leave the house and it's
(19:42):
like that's how we feel mentally.
Please help us understand and where to go.
And what not? Do you think if?
If what you did after your last attempt to make that your last
attempt, could you have done those things earlier, or did you
need the multiple attempts? Like I did to get to make it
(20:03):
something sink in for you? I need it.
I need the last time. I needed that.
Because that last attempt I lasted time I needed that to
experience what I'm capable of, right?
(20:24):
I always thought that. Yeah, I'm a smart guy, you know,
I can I can handle everything but I always thought that I
didn't have the strength to, to heal.
I needed that. I actually needed that that
psychiatrist be honest with you.He was like, you know, if I was
Batman he was like my Joker. I volunteered myself in that and
(20:44):
I place and, you know, when you volunteer 72 hours, you're
supposed to be there and he had kept me for five days because I
refuse to take whatever he provided for me and in.
And that gave me a voice. Like, oh, man, I my whole life,
I never realized, I had a voice to stand up for myself in that
(21:07):
type of setting. it was a switchyou know it was like wait, I
came Here for help. I'm I need a service.
This guy is not providing my services like very similar.
If we go to the restaurant, if you go get a car and you know,
you have to go get an oil changebut you know, they providing a
service and he wasn't doing that.
(21:28):
And I just had enough courage tostand up and say I'm going to.
I'm going to Stand My Ground if you're not gonna help me down.
I'm gonna figure this out. I have resources in this
hospital. Let me use them as much as I
can, so I could build up me. Why?
Now I understand why I was hurting right?
The if I were to did it early, Idon't think I would understand.
(21:50):
It was a whole like different mindset.
It was just a hate to say it, like a switch that just
happened. And I'm thankful for it though
because it became I became the man that I am today.
So how long has it been since your last attempt?
Well, seven years baby, seven years going on eight.
(22:11):
I could say that I could say that would have found out and
I've often tell people that, if you've ever seriously
contemplated suicide that thought is always looking for
another moment of weakness. It will it will show up again.
But so do you have those thoughts returned for?
You know, I created a Wellness Plan.
(22:32):
Right. You know, my wife, she knows me.
We've been knowing each other since teenagers so she knows me
very well. I have a plan that I do things
to monitor my mental health, so she knows like the other night.
She noticed that I've been off lately, you know, work managing,
(22:54):
you know, how it is trying to figure everything out doing
doing the dad life husband. I'm just I'm just not balanced
and we sat down and she's like, hey, everything's Good, I
noticed this and that, you know,let's pretty much review your
Wellness Plan and I was just like, yeah, you know, I'm just
unbalanced. I'm working way too much.
It's like this. It's leaning.
Let's figure out how can I take the pressure off and get back to
(23:15):
being who I am? And once I did that, you know,
we cleared it all up and down back to normal.
So I just have a Wellness Plan that I always keep with.
I change it sometimes 12 months based off my schedule but yeah
that helps out so much. I wonder if are there any
specific you Recommend of ways to keep hope, and healing alive
(23:36):
for you. Yeah, so in the Wellness Plan, I
have certain days, I reach out to my support system, right?
I have multiple people, that, that is in my support system
because there's multiple settings.
For example, I have my sister, we talked about the parenting
life the marriage life. Then I have my brother, we will
talk about, not only parenting, but like sports and whatnot.
(23:58):
And then I have other people that I just like my mom, I can
just talk Talk to and just try to work on that relationship
that we never had. So I would use that on certain
days like, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Monday, Tuesday, maybe
Saturday. So I reached out to her support
system, then also I reach out to, for myself exercising,
right? Certainly days, I would exercise
(24:20):
in something simple as walking around for 15 minutes
journaling, but I have two youngkids.
So the journaling part doesn't happen, but I use my phone.
And I do the voice note. So that's my journal.
And then at night based off of the time I do it, I listened to
it and reflect. So I have things planned out and
then I have like one day out of the week whether it's the
(24:42):
Saturday. I would try something new right
because of the pattern. You can easily get bored.
So I'll try something new. Hey Baby, Let's go
rollerblading. I don't know how to roller skate
at all but let's try it out, youknow?
Or hey, let's go to the zoo or let's go to the beach.
So I always do every month of But I have a where I have a
(25:02):
customized. Herbie, what's the best part
about being alive? Being able to.
Connect with others. Showing them that they're not
alone. During that time, I didn't I
(25:24):
didn't feel like I can connect with others.
I feel like I could I didn't know how to communicate with
others. Now.
I feel like I do, I can understand and then also just
being a dad. I never thought that was ever
going to happen now. It's like, you know, I have to,
you know, I have a two-year-old and five-year-old.
(25:45):
I'm just like, man. I think this is what life is
about. Yeah, like man I'm teaching them
my, for example, my five-year-old, you mentioned
breathing techniques earlier I told her breathing techniques
for when she has her emotional swings and now she's teaching it
to her little brother. So that is amazing.
I don't think you can put a price on that.
(26:07):
Yeah. What specifically might you
recommend or give advice around for someone that has made an
attempt has survived and is alone?
So the first thing I did after, and I'm glad you asked that.
So after I left the place and I did all this positive
(26:27):
affirmations, it's you still feel like would it would it Go?
The first thing I did was I called the suicide hotline
number and ask for recommendations.
Hey. Is there any support systems
besides my friends that get it right?
(26:48):
So is there anything that I can do?
So I will always I'd say. Call call The Suicide
Prevention, Lifeline number or you know, 988 and just ask them
or you can just Google it. Ask them.
Is there any local peer to peer meetings, connect with people?
So you don't feel like you're byyourself sometimes.
(27:09):
If you, I feel like personally after my attempt, my friends
didn't understand. They couldn't they couldn't
relate. They couldn't relate.
They didn't know. Hey I feel like there's a just
looking at, as you said earlier,he just needs some help, he be.
All right, once I was able to connect with a couple people it
(27:30):
felt great but then even during that Yeah, leave it at that.
Leave that that. And and any tips for someone
that that finds a friend or a loved one has made an attempt,
you're the first person on sceneand you see that something has
(27:51):
happened, what would you recommend they do?
I would recommend them to stay there by their side, talk to
them. Don't talk down at them, don't
talk over them, just talk to meet them where they are at and
this accent, hey, if you need some help, I'm here to guide
you. You don't have to have all the
answers but you some resources, whether it's in your community
(28:15):
or whether you use the, the number nine eight eight to help
you out. You don't have to be their
therapist which is be there to support them and just let them
know. I hear you.
I can't resonate but how can I assist you?
In preparation of our conversation.
I really sat down and thought like what obvious lived
(28:36):
experience, how can I succinctlyput it in something?
And so I made a list of seven items and right now, I feel like
we've hit all of them, but I just want to go through them and
make sure. But first was, so again, I've
survived an attempt on my life. What do I do?
And first seek help and it couldbe the, the hotline, they could
be calling a friend, it could beanswering the door when your
girlfriend's banging on it, right?
(28:57):
Whatever it is but get help. The second was practice
self-care, which as you said self-love, we if we don't love
ourselves, there's nothing someone else can do to fill that
hole. That's what it took me.
Probably decades to really fullyget an owner.
Like nobody's responsible for making us happy except us.
(29:21):
Yeah. So and it can be skate.
Like I used to I used to shun responsibility because I thought
responsibility meant Blaine. But when I can claim, no, I'm
responsible for my happiness. I'm responsible for my joy.
That that gives me Freedom now, but I never thought it did.
You know, my mind? Tell me that doesn't make sense
but my experience of it does make sense.
(29:43):
So do you find anything like that to be true for you?
Oh, yes, for sure. You know, I just want to chime
in you said, ask for help. You know what helped me out with
that because I was always told, like if you ask for, help is a
sign of weakness. So now I refrain my mindset.
Let me use my resource. Right.
(30:03):
It's essentially the same thing.But when I say, let me use my
resources, it seems more positive.
Right? We all have resources, 80, if
you, if I know, I need a ride across town and I can't make it
because my car broke down, I'm going to call you, hey, I'm
going to be right. That is a resource that I'm
using. Is it not the essentially, the
same thing except for help? So, once I was able to, to
reframe my mind, stop saying, oh, this is a sign of weakness,
(30:26):
has no, let me use my resource because it's a sign of strength.
That means I have not only a good, Art system but I have
someone that I can rely on that has my back.
Yeah, I often say the bravest thing you can do is ask for
help. So like the weakest thing we can
do is not do something because we're afraid of other people,
think about it like, that, that is weakness.
(30:47):
But strength is like, you know, I don't care what anyone might
say because it's in, it's all are negative.
Self-talk like I've never had someone come up and go, wow into
your week, you tried to die. That's never happened in my
life, but it happened a lot in my head.
So the third item I had was was find Hope which has been
mentioned throughout this, you know, in your children, in your
(31:08):
relationship and your own forgiveness and loving of
yourself. There's I think there's hope is
just automatically built into all those things.
And the fourth thing I had written down was connect with
others, which again you mentioned, having that support
network friends, trusted people,it can be strangers, it can be
peers while I quit, but there's it's all out there, which when
we're alone in our own Darkness.We don't think any of these
(31:30):
things are possible, but but they are.
If it was get involved in meaningful activities, you know.
Again, we're responsible for finding the purpose and meaning
in our lives. Like I don't believe no one's
here by accident. You're not a mistake.
I'm not a mistake, we can feel Hopeless and helpless, but we
truly aren't ever and always wasbe kind to yourself.
(31:55):
Like you talked about it, a switch being hit but again for
both of us it took multiple timefor that switch to stay off or
on, we want to look at it. But uh and always recommend, you
know, look out that negative self-talk journaling has been a
great tool for me as well but also celebrate every bit of
success. Like those first few days after
(32:16):
attempt. Like the the first time, the
first time, I realize I was going through like hard
circumstances and I didn't just want to die.
I was like, hey I'm growing. Wow.
You know, so celebrate just the fact I remember I was a
full-fledged adult before I got that beauty could make me cry.
Like I look at a sunrise and people would beaut artwork
(32:37):
people say, oh, I moved to tearsMike really?
I thought you just meant was depressed, I thought tears made
suicide, how can you? Nippy positive tears.
I can't. Yes.
How can you cry of Joy? Yeah, so I finally experience
that I was like, I was 32 but for right.
Wow, I'm crying. And I'm not sad.
This is great. So in this celebration of
discovering that that I'm wrong,I used to believe that life
(33:00):
sucks, then you die. And every experience that proves
that to be false. I'm like, thank God.
I was wrong. And the final thing is recovery,
takes time. So again, we talked about the
switch and when you get it, it seems like that, but that that
overnight success of enjoying your life, doesn't happen
(33:22):
overnight. Yes, I'm glad you said that I
just want to chime in on that. The best thing that for myself
was to get off of social media right now, we into the era of so
people won't buy our own. They seem like success
overnight. I had to get off of social media
and just do some healing, right?Things was the time, I felt over
(33:43):
And I bought a coloring book andsat down and just start
coloring, right? Let me just focus on this.
I don't want to thank. I just want to just just Xin out
there, right? And and then, when you said
activities, I realized that the power of play helps.
Sometimes we get so work work, work work, work, work.
And then you get overwhelmed, you going down the rabbit hole
(34:05):
at night that you shouldn't go down and I started scheduling
playing basketball. I was good at it.
I was really good at it and And I'm not doing that right, but
when I'm doing that, when I'm playing basketball or any
activity, you're not thinking about man, you're not thinking
about any stress. You're just reacting and having
fun like the power of play, you know.
(34:27):
I want to be an advocate for that.
I know we get older we look at playing as a child's game but I
think as adults we have to do it.
Yeah. So II love amusement parks and
roller coasters and years ago, hit me like in the front room.
Looks like woo and I'm like hey I when I was in line I was Crust
how I can't worry about, I can't, I can't run the bull shit
(34:47):
through my mind when I'm on in aThrill Ride.
Like it, there's nothing to putsme in the moment more than front
roller roller coaster. I can't sit through Google
accounts. Yeah, it's like, all right, all
these things that people try to medicate or say, something's
broken at your, your chemically imbalanced like, but it can't be
(35:09):
true because circumstances? Change and my mood and my
thoughts change. As well.
So, for what that's worth. But I was thought, likely, you
know, I'd love to take, you know, all the teenagers that are
in some mental hospital. Hey, let's all go.
Get on a roller coaster and see if that just changes your
attitude, for least that one moment.
And then, you know, oh, I can feel better if they know.
(35:30):
I actually have good feelings and not bad feeling.
Yeah, I agree. Cool.
So, so, Herbie, I know you also have a podcast.
So, tell me a little bit about that.
Yes, I have to just believe, show the disabilities show.
It's something that I decided toknow.
As the conversations of mental health, right?
Not only normalized but provide certain resources for people.
We are all different, everyone Hills different.
(35:51):
And on that journey, I just, I just took it upon myself to not
only Advocate about sharing my attempt to sharing things that
work for me. But also having what I like to
call the pros because there's a stigma of going to seek therapy,
going to go see a psychiatrist, you feel like oh they're going
to put some sort of like magic trick and they're not like that.
(36:13):
I Have, I'm blessed. I would say that first, but I
have a good amount of friends that are psychiatrist
counselors, social workers and just to have those that
relationship, I want people to normalize seeking therapy.
I don't want you to say, oh, I'mgoing to see a psychiatrist and
I'm crazy. No, it's just sometimes you just
need an unbiased opinion and yeah, so it's starting back up
(36:36):
in March, I'm excited. I took it took a break.
I always tell people when it comes to Mental Health.
Times you have to do what's bestfor you.
And put on your own oxygen mask and like, was overwhelming.
The new dad was was kicking my tail.
That's the nicest way. I've got to say it, but now, as
(36:58):
I mentioned earlier, I feel balanced.
So we get back on track with that beautiful.
Beautiful Herbie. Is there anything else you'd
like to share or a resource? A bit of experience, anything,
but not know. I don't think we know that.
A lot of it, to be honest, I really want to ask you a couple
of questions. Is that okay with you?
Sure I know this is your show and people by you just like,
(37:19):
give out all their information, but I want to know how was it
for you on the road of recovery after your last attempt.
It was bumpy. It, let's see.
I always felt this distorted sense of relief after an attempt
(37:40):
and it took me a long time to not realize that that that
relief was that I sought help like, for me when I was not
willing to disclose how painful I felt how much how much
Darkness was inside of me. Making an attempt was at least
an action and there was a relief.
Like, I've always felt better after it but again it took me
the slow learning thing. I'd like, wait a minute.
(38:02):
Can I skip the attempt and just get help.
And then when I was 22 years old, I put myself into a mental
hospital for just a long weekendbecause I want to die, but I
thought that was the first time I did make an attempt.
I went straight to professional help and I was like, ah, there
talk about celebrating all things like I'm like, I'm like
an adult I've grown up. This is Using, but but still
(38:26):
like that was after college, youknow, I would go up and down, I
would get help. I would, I would think I was
fine and invincible and stop thesupport and then life will kind
of catch up and I'd be backed out of entually.
Like I would go years doing great.
And even I start, you know, I wrote books and I started
(38:47):
speaking and I've already said it today like if you were with
seriously thought about suicide,that thought will always be
there. So, Came back for me, I see, I
forget that, like, I, I'm supposed to know better, I
should have seen this coming. So I get silent, the shame
starts again and I, I call I go dark.
I stopped doing the things that feel good.
(39:07):
I stopped helping other people. I just focus on everything that
sucks and the more you focus on what sucks.
All you see is what sucks that's?
So again, I've had to relearn mylessons multiple times and
that's okay, that's like nothingwrong with that.
They didn't mean they were they were wrong it just meant I need
to learn them again and it's never was The repeating that I
(39:31):
did was never the same exact same thing.
It was, you know, deeper levels because again, is you I've
trauma going back to birth, someof it.
I didn't, I did not remember till I was in my 20s.
So there's always more of the layer to unpack.
This more to be healed as more to bring out of the dark and
into the light and all those, all those sayings that I used to
(39:51):
think we're such nonsense until I experienced them like, oh
yeah, this is true for that thing.
And yeah, I got to love myself, more and positive affirmations.
And mirror work and meditation, and exercise and sharing what's
going on for people. And yeah, the, the more
authentic and honest and for me public, I can be, it helps me,
(40:13):
and it helps others. I just want to let you know.
I'm glad that you're still here.Yeah, I am too.
And I wasn't always like I afterall the times I've had that I'm
pissed. This did not work.
I remember being Furious and that's okay.
Like I was so sure that I was right about everything sucking.
(40:37):
I was, I was resistant to letting that that worldview go.
No. Yeah, for sure.
It's the same thing. It's like a roller coaster of
emotions. I was extremely angry after, you
know, my at the, my second attempt I was like, an of still.
Like I was so frustrated. And then, even with the third
(40:59):
one, I was angry. And to be honest, like, I don't
even know why, like, she came over it.
She had no reason, I don't know how, but she was there and
during that I was just like so pissed.
And once I was in the Behavior Health Center, once I was
journaling, I was just like, okay.
(41:20):
I started journaling out of anger.
And then the anger went to, oh my goodness, I'm crying.
Oh my goodness, I read. What is going on?
Like I want a drink, right? Because I'm triggered and
drinking post to help. Calm me down and from there, I
don't know. I just I was just, I was just
(41:41):
more. Accepting to the universe.
I like, okay, things happen for a reason.
You always hear that saying and I was just like, well, what is
the reason? What is the reason?
And then when I got attacked by the psychiatrist, I was running
it. And I was just like, I think
this the reason to find a voice but not only find a voice, hey,
you are here, like, you probablydidn't know your healer start
(42:03):
sharing your stories and just very similar to you.
Like, you know, wants to speak at opportunities happen and I'm
on stage and you know, you have people hate.
Thank you. You're so.
It was great. Hey, can I reach out to you?
How can I find you? And you know one of the stories
I one of the events I was out ofshared my story and I had a mom
(42:23):
just randomly cried and was likethank you.
You know, my daughter is in the audience and she had attempt and
I didn't know how to tell her, Ididn't know how to.
Like, I didn't know what to do but your story Navigate it like
the point that you said 27 points and then not only that
(42:45):
the door to realize there was hope and she's like, you know,
like how could I like repay you at all atoms?
Just like, just just be there for her and just acknowledge
her, that's it. And it is just like, you know,
grown man crying. Like okay, I think I found it.
Yeah, yeah. I see you said earlier to like,
oh, it's long as I can help one person.
If I say one life, it's worth itand I'll never forget, I still
(43:07):
clearly, remember the first timea stranger Came up to me and
said that I saved their life andI was like, you must be mistaken
this game. But you know what?
You resist that like that me andit's and I'm blessed.
Like, I've lost count of how many times that's happened and
again, establish confirms, right?
It is blessing and even our native experiences, when you can
(43:28):
take responsibility for what to do after them with them, that's
empowered. Yes.
Yes. There's a.
I'm so glad we got connected. Yeah, and I get to we're going
to we're going to talk again andmore often and, you know, but
until then Herbie, what's the best way for people to learn
more about you to connect with, you just go to her, be mac.com
(43:50):
from there. You can connect with me if you
want. I'm also, she meteor at and it's
pretty easy to find me at her Pee Mak.
So I want social media. If you put in every Mac, you
find me. Cool.
So I really Thank you for your time, for your authenticity, for
your sharing her. Be everyone listening to us.
I thank you. I, thank you for being here.
(44:14):
I, thank you for being alive. Really, from the bottom of my
heart. Every single one of you makes a
bigger difference in the world than you realize Please visit
real men, feel that org to see the blog post for this episode.
We'll have links to any of the resources discussed more.
The things we sharing will be there in text if that helps you
(44:34):
out, wherever discovering real, mindfield subscribe, like,
comment. Share this with someone that you
think needs a little bit of Hopeinspiration, right now, you can
always reach out to me at real men.
Feel at gmail.com, I'm always glad to hear from you.
And until next time, Choose life.
Greetings, and welcome to real men.
Feel, this is your host author, coach, and Taylor, and e-grant.
You can learn more about me by visiting.
The integrand.com real men. Feel is here to remind men that
they are human beings and they have the right to experience and
express all of their emotions. We have conversations that most
men aren't having. But that all men can benefit
from now before we get going today, I want to warn everyone
(00:23):
that we will be discussing suicide attempts.
If you are in crisis right now, don't listen get Help text or
call 988 and the United States, there's help available 24 hours
a day for other countries. Please visit find a helpline.com
for options near you. So, again, text or call 988 or
(00:44):
visit find a helpline. All one word.com, the goal of
this episode is that our shared experiences as suicide, attempt
survivors, offers, hope and encouragement to others, perhaps
to you and raises awareness about the importance of mental,
health and suicide. Prevention, the World Health
Organization estimates that 800,000 people die by Suicide
(01:06):
each year. And that number is surely an
underreported number in 2020 alone.
It is estimated at one point twomillion people made an attempt
to end their life. What isn't talked about enough
in my mind is that millions of people go on to live a full
healthy lives after making it attempt.
My guest today is her bmac Herbie was born and raised in
(01:28):
the South Bronx of New York where he saw A drug abuse and
gang violence in experienced family.
Trauma that caused him to oppression as a child teenager
and adult this. Let her be to become a
functional alcoholic for over 11years due to an inability to
express his emotions. Effectively Herbie was unaware
of the signs of suicide ideationwhich led him to attempting
suicide multiple times. After his last attempt and years
(01:51):
of healing, he decided not to keep his suicide attempts to
himself Herbies. Now using his story and
experience to advocate for suicide.
Prevention awareness, teach the signs Of suicide ideation and
normalizing asking for help. Welcome to real men feel Herbie.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it. Andy.
And I really want to take a moment to Appreciate and give
(02:15):
respect for the fact that we areboth alive.
We both tried to make that not be true.
I often joke about when I tell my stories that I was I was a
slow learner and it took me multiple you know, so-called
failed attempts to realize. All right?
Maybe I'm supposed to be here, maybe I'm supposed to be alive.
So I wonder it was that, was that a part of your thinking,
(02:36):
why why you kept making attemptsto do?
But like, what, why multiple I was hurt.
I was hurt during my, my journey, I was going through so
many emotions and as a man, theynever really changed me how to
express those emotions, right? Anyways, he expressed it.
If you you know, drink or if you, you know, do something
(02:59):
extreme like exercising like waytoo much or just not even
talking about your feelings. So during this time, I was
hurting, I didn't know how to express myself.
I didn't know how to Act like a human was more like a robot and
I was just feeling numb and I just wanted the Pain to End.
So it was in your experience is primarily an emotional pain, was
(03:22):
there physical pain as well? Like what was your experience of
that you're trying to end? Emotional.
Yeah, more emotional, just the things of of not experiencing
love right, from from people that I look up to, and I didn't
know how to love myself. I'm looking for love in all the
(03:44):
wrong places, and not having that moment to love myself.
I was just like, wood, what am Idoing here?
And, before we get to further, Iwant to ask you.
And, and this, if this is different then, and now please
Make it clear. But how do you define a suicide
attempts? How do I defined it aside for
(04:06):
help? That's it.
When I was when I was in my teens and 20s and making
multiple attempts, I only counted it.
Like I had made an attempt if I ended up in the hospital.
Like, if I try, if I, if no one found me, if I didn't like hurt
myself enough to matter, I don'teven count that.
So that get, that's kind of whatI meant.
Like, would 10. Know you all know, what did you
(04:27):
have to do to consider yourself that?
Like, wow, I made an attempt on my life.
What what what? What was there?
A barrier to cross to make that true for you at all?
Yes, it was a it was multiple barriers a, my journey.
I every attempt I tried I counted and that was just trying
(04:49):
to you the extreme to make the pain in, right?
I don't want to give anybody anyideas, but doing the extreme to
just say, I want this hurt the end.
I want to stop feeling empty inside, I want to stop feeling
Not love and not loving myself. I just want I just want to stop.
(05:09):
Yeah, that's my experience. When a lot of people I talk to.
I didn't necessarily want to die.
I wanted what I was experiencingto stop.
Yes yes. For sure.
If you want I can give my story if that's up to you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Share.
Share what you want to share right now?
Sure sure appreciate it. So I'm just going to give a
trigger warning for those. Waking up to the sound of
(05:33):
someone, being it at my door, asI opened the door.
I realized this, my ex-girlfriend, she's like,
herpes. Why do you look like that?
Why do you smell like that? Hello.
Are you going to answer me the whole time?
I'm trying to decide if I shouldtell her the truth because every
male told me I can't be weak. I can't be vulnerable.
I have to man up She these words, I love you.
(05:54):
I'm here for you. So I decided to tell the truth.
This is the third day in a row. I attempted suicide and honestly
would have been a fourth of you didn't come knocking and soon as
she starts crying. She hands me her phone and tells
me to call the suicide prevention Lifeline number.
So I did has I'm on the phone. I'm speaking to the counselor
she said sir on a scale of one to ten, how do you feel today?
(06:17):
As I replied - tend to be honestwith you, this is the first time
in my life. I don't trust myself by myself.
So she recommended check myself and said Behavior Health Center.
So I did as I'm never getting evaluated by a couple of nurses.
In one of the male nurses, stopped me and said, look, I
don't know if you believe in Godor not, but I've been doing this
for years. You don't belong here.
God's going to use you to share your story and touch out the
(06:40):
lives at the moment. I had no idea what he's talking
about. To be honest with you.
I just wanted my pillow my blanket and cry.
No. No one thinks about attempting
suicide to let alone. Being in a place like this few
moments passed by, I'm getting evaluated by the psychiatrist.
He just glances that. My phallus is take this, as
something said Herbie, this doesn't feel right speak up.
(07:01):
It doesn't feel right? So I did take what, what am I
taking this for? He glances that my Fallon says,
oh, you're from the Bronx. I know people from the Bronx
have a low IQ. I can't really read and write
that. Well, I just want to put this
out there. When people do lady was that,
you please tell them labels are made for jars.
Not people. Since he didn't want to
communicate with me nor care to.I went right back to that same
(07:24):
male. Nurses said, look man I don't
trust that guy. Is there anything I can do to
empower my mental health? He said.
Yeah, try journaler, I'm gonna give you a notepad and a pen.
Oh well a pencil. So I'm drawing in a realizing,
the trigger of my depression wasmy parents.
The fact that they didn't teach me how to love myself.
Here I am dating. Someone else hoping that they
(07:45):
could teach me how to love myself.
It sounds ridiculous every time I think about it.
As I kept drilling, I realize I was a functioning alcoholic
here. I am drinking to numb my pain.
Instead of understanding my page, a few days passed by have
to see another psychiatrist. She's like, Herbie, why are you
not taking the prescription? We provide for you, we believe
(08:09):
you're bipolar one. And I was like, I was first time
I heard it. The first psychiatrist never
said anything, just told me to take this, so she gives me a
couple of tests and after hour or two, I passed everything.
She's like, okay. Everything's fine.
You don't seem like you have bipolar, you just seem like
you're depressed. So do me a favor.
I'm going to release you, but you have to go seek therapy.
(08:31):
And I'm going to be honest with you.
I was broke so therapy. I was like, I can't afford that.
That guy home. I typed in how to love yourself
on cou, cou discovered somethingcalled positive affirmations.
Never heard of it a day in my life, but since I was in dire
needs, I was like, oh well. Imma Be extreme with the I put
sticky notes everywhere from themirror to the bathroom, to my
(08:53):
bedroom, to my refrigerator, to even in my car.
A few days passed by some of my friends found out that I was
having suicidal ideation and I attempted, so they want their
cheer me up by taking me out since my nickname was anything
possible for the fact that I love Hennessy so much.
But I discovered something called Boundaries, look, bro.
(09:15):
I love you. I can't go out with you because
when I start drinking, I turned into that Incredible Hulk, and I
can't control that, man. They didn't get it, but they
respected. So, I kept journaling, and as I
started journaling, I discoveredsomething called forgiveness.
You see I did forget, my parentswere not teaching me how to love
myself due to the fact of they lost a daughter who died of
(09:37):
brain cancer. I lost a sister who died of
brain cancer so they was depressed.
Then I had to forgive myself fortrying to damage my body and
trying to end my life because I was depressed.
And I also started doing something.
I've never done before, I lookedin the mirror, so I can tell
myself, you are loved. You are smart.
(09:58):
You can't change the world only if you just believe.
So, I got the first marker, I found, and I wrote on my mirror,
as big as I can just believe Butthose who are ever wondering
about that ex-girlfriend, I cameknocking on my door, she's not
my wife. She blessed me with two amazing
(10:20):
kids. You see?
I shared this story every time because I personally went from
hopelessness to happiness Duringthis journey, I know it's very
challenging and it can be difficult but I just want to
provide hope for others. Thank you for allowing.
Just need to share a little partof my story.
Awesome. And thank you for your bravery
(10:40):
and willingness to do so. You know, I firmly believe that
the way we prevent suicide is bytalking about suicide because
of, so my attempts were began inmy early teens and the only
place I heard anyone else, talk about feeling suicidal was in a
mental hospital, which made it seem even crazier that I'm just,
you know, nobody thinks this wayand unfortunately, most people
(11:03):
have the thought And something Ilearned early on was that, you
know well it's just a thought and a thought can be changed and
they can take effort. That's why positive affirmations
work. In my experience.
You it gives you a new thought to focus on and repeat and even
if you keep coming back to a shitty old thought time and time
again, you just means you're so used to it.
So tape that make that effort. But I've written two books on
(11:24):
affirmations and I love them toobecause they're, yeah, they're
free. Yes, you everyone.
You can have a mirror and doing them with more work.
Like I remember when I first started like, Ah, I think was
like, 2006. And I tried to like I couldn't
even hold eye contact with myself in a mirror.
I was so disgusted with myself and Dad discovering self-love
(11:44):
like, what does that mean? That now then would they were
foreign words to me. So, right there with you, man.
And and the Forgiveness aspect to.
So, my attempts were spread overmultiple years.
And I remember, I did this holotropic breathwork experience
where you kind of really go in this altered state and this
inner wisdom and healer takes over. / and I was bawling and
(12:05):
sobbing at the beauty of life and that I try to thrown it
away. And after it, it was the first
time I realized like, wow, I've survived attempted murder and it
was from me. So, I, again, that forgiveness
you talk about is Sookie. I don't get talked about enough.
So, you know, one of the first things I find most beneficial,
if you've made an attempt to endyour life and you're alive first
(12:26):
like, forgive yourself for whatever brought you there,
forgive yourself for that decision, and be grateful that
you survived it. And I've met some people that
made an attempt. It didn't work, and they like,
huh, you know, they see the light and praise God, I'm alive
and they never really met. They're on the path.
They like their feel good from then on.
But some of you are saying you did three days in a row so you
(12:48):
didn't have that experience of like, yep, didn't work.
That means I'm spoiled and I wasthe same way again.
I was this really so I was good in school but I was stupid as
hell when it came to life. Yeah.
I kept having to test it and like, am I really supposed to be
here an hour? Supposed to be here.
And finally, for me, it wasn't until I had, I had tried to kill
(13:08):
myself using a means that had already not worked.
So, I'm doing the same thing over the definition of insanity,
right? I'm doing the same thing over
expecting a different result andI find like there's got to be a
reason, like why? So for me I found out and I know
you got there to being of service somehow.
Sharing your pain, makes your pain better and can help others
(13:30):
as well. Yeah, you know for myself man it
was so much that you you talked about.
Myself, the Forgiveness part wasthe hardest thing.
Great. I didn't know how to forgive not
to say. I'm a bitter person.
It was just like the expectations that you have as a
(13:53):
kid is like man. I'm gonna grow up and going to
go to achieve all these dreams and expectations are so high.
I'm going to reach it all by theage of like 25 and then when you
turn 25 you're like wait wait wait, life is a way harder than
what I thought it would be and Ihad to learn.
What does that look like? And every day I struggle with
(14:14):
that struggle with it, for a minimum of three years.
And then, one day, I got inspired, I got a picture of
myself, it's in my office, I'm like three years old, and I had
to write a love letter to forgive that three-year-old,
right? Like, hey, I'm sorry for
everything that you've been through.
Sorry that you didn't receive the love that you wanted to as a
(14:37):
child. I'm sorry for everything.
And if you feel like nobody was there, I Apologize for that and
I read that letter, I said on that letter probably no, two to
six months. And then I went back into like
that kid mindset. And I wrote a letter saying
thank you. Thank you for for being there
(14:59):
now. And all of that letter was just
allow me to forgive everything that I had experience.
Allowed me to forgive the journey that I went through.
And then I think you let everything.
Thank you for being there. Now, we're going to grow up to
be the man that we can be, and we will be and we could do it
together, not just helped me so much and I didn't want to share
(15:21):
my story. Not because I'm embarrassed or
anything like that. I don't want to share my story.
Due to the fact of, you know, it's something taboo.
We don't, we don't talk about it, you know, in my community,
in the black community, we don'ttalk about attempts.
We are talk about mental health,you say, you want to end your
life, then they W, as you said, crazy.
(15:43):
Quote, unquote. And I didn't, obviously, I don't
want anybody to pick on me, right?
Because mentally, I'm recoveringfrom a temp, and I don't know if
I'm strong enough to to, to takeon that.
And after the experience of dealing with that, that
psychiatrists who is no longer in the field.
Think thankfully, he had his license.
(16:05):
Revoked, I really just sat there, and I was just like, you
know what? Let me just go and go go, and
just look at the numbers of attempts, how many people
actually survived. And then when I saw the That the
sad numbers of how many people die every year.
I got to help. I gotta say something just
(16:28):
because I can potentially save one person.
Maybe they might just say, he'llwait, there's hope.
And that's when I started sharing my stories once I went.
And I saw the numbers I was justlike, oh my like this is, this
is a real thing. I didn't know that, you know,
Yeah, I'm always amazed that often a suicide attempt refer to
(16:48):
called. It's a cry for help.
And it said I've heard that usedlike as a relative.
I sort of like it's just a cry for help yet if a building is on
fire and I'm fire fire. That's a cry for help.
And people pay attention that they don't make a, that's just
fire. But but for somehow a Swiss m is
again, there's this all this stigma and shame built into it.
(17:09):
And and I've always thought thatif there's kind of You know,
we're all one energy and whatever religion, you are,
typically the most people recognize that there's some sort
of business sense of Oneness. And there's this, there's this
soul of a bond that we're all inthis together and somehow, one
person opting out intentionally trying to end their life.
I think it just disrupts us so much.
(17:31):
It's beyond words, even as the sense of like, wait a minute,
you you can't do that. We're in this together was
supposed to get, we're on the same team, what's happening?
And I always thought that. Kind of how suicide can seem to
like spread through a community.It's that seeing someone take
that action, it almost like makes everyone go inside and go.
Well if if they went that dark, am I that dark as well?
(17:55):
Like am I just one bad circumstance away from doing
that myself and I can when I think it's so important to talk
about it because the more you talk about him realize, oh you
feel that same way, do you feel that same?
Oh, you went through this last year?
Like oh, we are all together. All right, but it's when when we
get ice, Isolated and withdrawn only to ourselves that's when
that's when we're at our weakest.
(18:15):
Yes, exactly. It's one of the things that I
want to normalize the conversation.
Let's break the stigma, right? If it's a crime, I think people
look at it, like, oh, it's a cryfor help because they can't see
it. Like, as you said in an example
of the house, burning or the building burning people can see
it. So let's go, let's help us help.
(18:36):
But they can't see it because it's a mental thing, right?
It's mentally. It's not something that's
displayed. Like, if I break my arm, you can
see that. But you can't see that on the
inside. I'm broken or I feel broken or I
have a broken heart or I feel like I'm worthy.
Not worthy. But I'm I've hopelessness right.
And that people don't get it waslike, oh well, I'm having a bad
day too and it's like, it's not a bad day that I'm having.
(19:00):
I'm having a moment where I don't know if I'm going to make
it to tomorrow in some people may be overwhelmed by that.
Yeah, yeah. Own anyone like well, we'll do
what do you mean? You know, and they made walk
away. Some people may call 911 and I
think if we normalize it we can actually teach others.
Oh hey. There's a simple number that you
(19:21):
can call 988, if you're uncomfortable, they have a text
line as well. You can text it out it.
So just just doing that. I can see it a lot especially
ever since the the whole world changes is 20/20.
Now, people understand when someone is struggling mentally
like, oh man, I'm on lockdown, Ican't leave the house and it's
(19:42):
like that's how we feel mentally.
Please help us understand and where to go.
And what not? Do you think if?
If what you did after your last attempt to make that your last
attempt, could you have done those things earlier, or did you
need the multiple attempts? Like I did to get to make it
(20:03):
something sink in for you? I need it.
I need the last time. I needed that.
Because that last attempt I lasted time I needed that to
experience what I'm capable of, right?
(20:24):
I always thought that. Yeah, I'm a smart guy, you know,
I can I can handle everything but I always thought that I
didn't have the strength to, to heal.
I needed that. I actually needed that that
psychiatrist be honest with you.He was like, you know, if I was
Batman he was like my Joker. I volunteered myself in that and
(20:44):
I place and, you know, when you volunteer 72 hours, you're
supposed to be there and he had kept me for five days because I
refuse to take whatever he provided for me and in.
And that gave me a voice. Like, oh, man, I my whole life,
I never realized, I had a voice to stand up for myself in that
(21:07):
type of setting. it was a switchyou know it was like wait, I
came Here for help. I'm I need a service.
This guy is not providing my services like very similar.
If we go to the restaurant, if you go get a car and you know,
you have to go get an oil changebut you know, they providing a
service and he wasn't doing that.
(21:28):
And I just had enough courage tostand up and say I'm going to.
I'm going to Stand My Ground if you're not gonna help me down.
I'm gonna figure this out. I have resources in this
hospital. Let me use them as much as I
can, so I could build up me. Why?
Now I understand why I was hurting right?
The if I were to did it early, Idon't think I would understand.
(21:50):
It was a whole like different mindset.
It was just a hate to say it, like a switch that just
happened. And I'm thankful for it though
because it became I became the man that I am today.
So how long has it been since your last attempt?
Well, seven years baby, seven years going on eight.
(22:11):
I could say that I could say that would have found out and
I've often tell people that, if you've ever seriously
contemplated suicide that thought is always looking for
another moment of weakness. It will it will show up again.
But so do you have those thoughts returned for?
You know, I created a Wellness Plan.
(22:32):
Right. You know, my wife, she knows me.
We've been knowing each other since teenagers so she knows me
very well. I have a plan that I do things
to monitor my mental health, so she knows like the other night.
She noticed that I've been off lately, you know, work managing,
(22:54):
you know, how it is trying to figure everything out doing
doing the dad life husband. I'm just I'm just not balanced
and we sat down and she's like, hey, everything's Good, I
noticed this and that, you know,let's pretty much review your
Wellness Plan and I was just like, yeah, you know, I'm just
unbalanced. I'm working way too much.
It's like this. It's leaning.
Let's figure out how can I take the pressure off and get back to
(23:15):
being who I am? And once I did that, you know,
we cleared it all up and down back to normal.
So I just have a Wellness Plan that I always keep with.
I change it sometimes 12 months based off my schedule but yeah
that helps out so much. I wonder if are there any
specific you Recommend of ways to keep hope, and healing alive
(23:36):
for you. Yeah, so in the Wellness Plan, I
have certain days, I reach out to my support system, right?
I have multiple people, that, that is in my support system
because there's multiple settings.
For example, I have my sister, we talked about the parenting
life the marriage life. Then I have my brother, we will
talk about, not only parenting, but like sports and whatnot.
(23:58):
And then I have other people that I just like my mom, I can
just talk Talk to and just try to work on that relationship
that we never had. So I would use that on certain
days like, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Monday, Tuesday, maybe
Saturday. So I reached out to her support
system, then also I reach out to, for myself exercising,
right? Certainly days, I would exercise
(24:20):
in something simple as walking around for 15 minutes
journaling, but I have two youngkids.
So the journaling part doesn't happen, but I use my phone.
And I do the voice note. So that's my journal.
And then at night based off of the time I do it, I listened to
it and reflect. So I have things planned out and
then I have like one day out of the week whether it's the
(24:42):
Saturday. I would try something new right
because of the pattern. You can easily get bored.
So I'll try something new. Hey Baby, Let's go
rollerblading. I don't know how to roller skate
at all but let's try it out, youknow?
Or hey, let's go to the zoo or let's go to the beach.
So I always do every month of But I have a where I have a
(25:02):
customized. Herbie, what's the best part
about being alive? Being able to.
Connect with others. Showing them that they're not
alone. During that time, I didn't I
(25:24):
didn't feel like I can connect with others.
I feel like I could I didn't know how to communicate with
others. Now.
I feel like I do, I can understand and then also just
being a dad. I never thought that was ever
going to happen now. It's like, you know, I have to,
you know, I have a two-year-old and five-year-old.
(25:45):
I'm just like, man. I think this is what life is
about. Yeah, like man I'm teaching them
my, for example, my five-year-old, you mentioned
breathing techniques earlier I told her breathing techniques
for when she has her emotional swings and now she's teaching it
to her little brother. So that is amazing.
I don't think you can put a price on that.
(26:07):
Yeah. What specifically might you
recommend or give advice around for someone that has made an
attempt has survived and is alone?
So the first thing I did after, and I'm glad you asked that.
So after I left the place and I did all this positive
(26:27):
affirmations, it's you still feel like would it would it Go?
The first thing I did was I called the suicide hotline
number and ask for recommendations.
Hey. Is there any support systems
besides my friends that get it right?
(26:48):
So is there anything that I can do?
So I will always I'd say. Call call The Suicide
Prevention, Lifeline number or you know, 988 and just ask them
or you can just Google it. Ask them.
Is there any local peer to peer meetings, connect with people?
So you don't feel like you're byyourself sometimes.
(27:09):
If you, I feel like personally after my attempt, my friends
didn't understand. They couldn't they couldn't
relate. They couldn't relate.
They didn't know. Hey I feel like there's a just
looking at, as you said earlier,he just needs some help, he be.
All right, once I was able to connect with a couple people it
(27:30):
felt great but then even during that Yeah, leave it at that.
Leave that that. And and any tips for someone
that that finds a friend or a loved one has made an attempt,
you're the first person on sceneand you see that something has
(27:51):
happened, what would you recommend they do?
I would recommend them to stay there by their side, talk to
them. Don't talk down at them, don't
talk over them, just talk to meet them where they are at and
this accent, hey, if you need some help, I'm here to guide
you. You don't have to have all the
answers but you some resources, whether it's in your community
(28:15):
or whether you use the, the number nine eight eight to help
you out. You don't have to be their
therapist which is be there to support them and just let them
know. I hear you.
I can't resonate but how can I assist you?
In preparation of our conversation.
I really sat down and thought like what obvious lived
(28:36):
experience, how can I succinctlyput it in something?
And so I made a list of seven items and right now, I feel like
we've hit all of them, but I just want to go through them and
make sure. But first was, so again, I've
survived an attempt on my life. What do I do?
And first seek help and it couldbe the, the hotline, they could
be calling a friend, it could beanswering the door when your
girlfriend's banging on it, right?
(28:57):
Whatever it is but get help. The second was practice
self-care, which as you said self-love, we if we don't love
ourselves, there's nothing someone else can do to fill that
hole. That's what it took me.
Probably decades to really fullyget an owner.
Like nobody's responsible for making us happy except us.
(29:21):
Yeah. So and it can be skate.
Like I used to I used to shun responsibility because I thought
responsibility meant Blaine. But when I can claim, no, I'm
responsible for my happiness. I'm responsible for my joy.
That that gives me Freedom now, but I never thought it did.
You know, my mind? Tell me that doesn't make sense
but my experience of it does make sense.
(29:43):
So do you find anything like that to be true for you?
Oh, yes, for sure. You know, I just want to chime
in you said, ask for help. You know what helped me out with
that because I was always told, like if you ask for, help is a
sign of weakness. So now I refrain my mindset.
Let me use my resource. Right.
(30:03):
It's essentially the same thing.But when I say, let me use my
resources, it seems more positive.
Right? We all have resources, 80, if
you, if I know, I need a ride across town and I can't make it
because my car broke down, I'm going to call you, hey, I'm
going to be right. That is a resource that I'm
using. Is it not the essentially, the
same thing except for help? So, once I was able to, to
reframe my mind, stop saying, oh, this is a sign of weakness,
(30:26):
has no, let me use my resource because it's a sign of strength.
That means I have not only a good, Art system but I have
someone that I can rely on that has my back.
Yeah, I often say the bravest thing you can do is ask for
help. So like the weakest thing we can
do is not do something because we're afraid of other people,
think about it like, that, that is weakness.
(30:47):
But strength is like, you know, I don't care what anyone might
say because it's in, it's all are negative.
Self-talk like I've never had someone come up and go, wow into
your week, you tried to die. That's never happened in my
life, but it happened a lot in my head.
So the third item I had was was find Hope which has been
mentioned throughout this, you know, in your children, in your
(31:08):
relationship and your own forgiveness and loving of
yourself. There's I think there's hope is
just automatically built into all those things.
And the fourth thing I had written down was connect with
others, which again you mentioned, having that support
network friends, trusted people,it can be strangers, it can be
peers while I quit, but there's it's all out there, which when
we're alone in our own Darkness.We don't think any of these
(31:30):
things are possible, but but they are.
If it was get involved in meaningful activities, you know.
Again, we're responsible for finding the purpose and meaning
in our lives. Like I don't believe no one's
here by accident. You're not a mistake.
I'm not a mistake, we can feel Hopeless and helpless, but we
truly aren't ever and always wasbe kind to yourself.
(31:55):
Like you talked about it, a switch being hit but again for
both of us it took multiple timefor that switch to stay off or
on, we want to look at it. But uh and always recommend, you
know, look out that negative self-talk journaling has been a
great tool for me as well but also celebrate every bit of
success. Like those first few days after
(32:16):
attempt. Like the the first time, the
first time, I realize I was going through like hard
circumstances and I didn't just want to die.
I was like, hey I'm growing. Wow.
You know, so celebrate just the fact I remember I was a
full-fledged adult before I got that beauty could make me cry.
Like I look at a sunrise and people would beaut artwork
(32:37):
people say, oh, I moved to tearsMike really?
I thought you just meant was depressed, I thought tears made
suicide, how can you? Nippy positive tears.
I can't. Yes.
How can you cry of Joy? Yeah, so I finally experience
that I was like, I was 32 but for right.
Wow, I'm crying. And I'm not sad.
This is great. So in this celebration of
discovering that that I'm wrong,I used to believe that life
(33:00):
sucks, then you die. And every experience that proves
that to be false. I'm like, thank God.
I was wrong. And the final thing is recovery,
takes time. So again, we talked about the
switch and when you get it, it seems like that, but that that
overnight success of enjoying your life, doesn't happen
(33:22):
overnight. Yes, I'm glad you said that I
just want to chime in on that. The best thing that for myself
was to get off of social media right now, we into the era of so
people won't buy our own. They seem like success
overnight. I had to get off of social media
and just do some healing, right?Things was the time, I felt over
(33:43):
And I bought a coloring book andsat down and just start
coloring, right? Let me just focus on this.
I don't want to thank. I just want to just just Xin out
there, right? And and then, when you said
activities, I realized that the power of play helps.
Sometimes we get so work work, work work, work, work.
And then you get overwhelmed, you going down the rabbit hole
(34:05):
at night that you shouldn't go down and I started scheduling
playing basketball. I was good at it.
I was really good at it and And I'm not doing that right, but
when I'm doing that, when I'm playing basketball or any
activity, you're not thinking about man, you're not thinking
about any stress. You're just reacting and having
fun like the power of play, you know.
(34:27):
I want to be an advocate for that.
I know we get older we look at playing as a child's game but I
think as adults we have to do it.
Yeah. So II love amusement parks and
roller coasters and years ago, hit me like in the front room.
Looks like woo and I'm like hey I when I was in line I was Crust
how I can't worry about, I can't, I can't run the bull shit
(34:47):
through my mind when I'm on in aThrill Ride.
Like it, there's nothing to putsme in the moment more than front
roller roller coaster. I can't sit through Google
accounts. Yeah, it's like, all right, all
these things that people try to medicate or say, something's
broken at your, your chemically imbalanced like, but it can't be
(35:09):
true because circumstances? Change and my mood and my
thoughts change. As well.
So, for what that's worth. But I was thought, likely, you
know, I'd love to take, you know, all the teenagers that are
in some mental hospital. Hey, let's all go.
Get on a roller coaster and see if that just changes your
attitude, for least that one moment.
And then, you know, oh, I can feel better if they know.
(35:30):
I actually have good feelings and not bad feeling.
Yeah, I agree. Cool.
So, so, Herbie, I know you also have a podcast.
So, tell me a little bit about that.
Yes, I have to just believe, show the disabilities show.
It's something that I decided toknow.
As the conversations of mental health, right?
Not only normalized but provide certain resources for people.
We are all different, everyone Hills different.
(35:51):
And on that journey, I just, I just took it upon myself to not
only Advocate about sharing my attempt to sharing things that
work for me. But also having what I like to
call the pros because there's a stigma of going to seek therapy,
going to go see a psychiatrist, you feel like oh they're going
to put some sort of like magic trick and they're not like that.
(36:13):
I Have, I'm blessed. I would say that first, but I
have a good amount of friends that are psychiatrist
counselors, social workers and just to have those that
relationship, I want people to normalize seeking therapy.
I don't want you to say, oh, I'mgoing to see a psychiatrist and
I'm crazy. No, it's just sometimes you just
need an unbiased opinion and yeah, so it's starting back up
(36:36):
in March, I'm excited. I took it took a break.
I always tell people when it comes to Mental Health.
Times you have to do what's bestfor you.
And put on your own oxygen mask and like, was overwhelming.
The new dad was was kicking my tail.
That's the nicest way. I've got to say it, but now, as
(36:58):
I mentioned earlier, I feel balanced.
So we get back on track with that beautiful.
Beautiful Herbie. Is there anything else you'd
like to share or a resource? A bit of experience, anything,
but not know. I don't think we know that.
A lot of it, to be honest, I really want to ask you a couple
of questions. Is that okay with you?
Sure I know this is your show and people by you just like,
(37:19):
give out all their information, but I want to know how was it
for you on the road of recovery after your last attempt.
It was bumpy. It, let's see.
I always felt this distorted sense of relief after an attempt
(37:40):
and it took me a long time to not realize that that that
relief was that I sought help like, for me when I was not
willing to disclose how painful I felt how much how much
Darkness was inside of me. Making an attempt was at least
an action and there was a relief.
Like, I've always felt better after it but again it took me
the slow learning thing. I'd like, wait a minute.
(38:02):
Can I skip the attempt and just get help.
And then when I was 22 years old, I put myself into a mental
hospital for just a long weekendbecause I want to die, but I
thought that was the first time I did make an attempt.
I went straight to professional help and I was like, ah, there
talk about celebrating all things like I'm like, I'm like
an adult I've grown up. This is Using, but but still
(38:26):
like that was after college, youknow, I would go up and down, I
would get help. I would, I would think I was
fine and invincible and stop thesupport and then life will kind
of catch up and I'd be backed out of entually.
Like I would go years doing great.
And even I start, you know, I wrote books and I started
(38:47):
speaking and I've already said it today like if you were with
seriously thought about suicide,that thought will always be
there. So, Came back for me, I see, I
forget that, like, I, I'm supposed to know better, I
should have seen this coming. So I get silent, the shame
starts again and I, I call I go dark.
I stopped doing the things that feel good.
(39:07):
I stopped helping other people. I just focus on everything that
sucks and the more you focus on what sucks.
All you see is what sucks that's?
So again, I've had to relearn mylessons multiple times and
that's okay, that's like nothingwrong with that.
They didn't mean they were they were wrong it just meant I need
to learn them again and it's never was The repeating that I
(39:31):
did was never the same exact same thing.
It was, you know, deeper levels because again, is you I've
trauma going back to birth, someof it.
I didn't, I did not remember till I was in my 20s.
So there's always more of the layer to unpack.
This more to be healed as more to bring out of the dark and
into the light and all those, all those sayings that I used to
(39:51):
think we're such nonsense until I experienced them like, oh
yeah, this is true for that thing.
And yeah, I got to love myself, more and positive affirmations.
And mirror work and meditation, and exercise and sharing what's
going on for people. And yeah, the, the more
authentic and honest and for me public, I can be, it helps me,
(40:13):
and it helps others. I just want to let you know.
I'm glad that you're still here.Yeah, I am too.
And I wasn't always like I afterall the times I've had that I'm
pissed. This did not work.
I remember being Furious and that's okay.
Like I was so sure that I was right about everything sucking.
(40:37):
I was, I was resistant to letting that that worldview go.
No. Yeah, for sure.
It's the same thing. It's like a roller coaster of
emotions. I was extremely angry after, you
know, my at the, my second attempt I was like, an of still.
Like I was so frustrated. And then, even with the third
(40:59):
one, I was angry. And to be honest, like, I don't
even know why, like, she came over it.
She had no reason, I don't know how, but she was there and
during that I was just like so pissed.
And once I was in the Behavior Health Center, once I was
journaling, I was just like, okay.
(41:20):
I started journaling out of anger.
And then the anger went to, oh my goodness, I'm crying.
Oh my goodness, I read. What is going on?
Like I want a drink, right? Because I'm triggered and
drinking post to help. Calm me down and from there, I
don't know. I just I was just, I was just
(41:41):
more. Accepting to the universe.
I like, okay, things happen for a reason.
You always hear that saying and I was just like, well, what is
the reason? What is the reason?
And then when I got attacked by the psychiatrist, I was running
it. And I was just like, I think
this the reason to find a voice but not only find a voice, hey,
you are here, like, you probablydidn't know your healer start
(42:03):
sharing your stories and just very similar to you.
Like, you know, wants to speak at opportunities happen and I'm
on stage and you know, you have people hate.
Thank you. You're so.
It was great. Hey, can I reach out to you?
How can I find you? And you know one of the stories
I one of the events I was out ofshared my story and I had a mom
(42:23):
just randomly cried and was likethank you.
You know, my daughter is in the audience and she had attempt and
I didn't know how to tell her, Ididn't know how to.
Like, I didn't know what to do but your story Navigate it like
the point that you said 27 points and then not only that
(42:45):
the door to realize there was hope and she's like, you know,
like how could I like repay you at all atoms?
Just like, just just be there for her and just acknowledge
her, that's it. And it is just like, you know,
grown man crying. Like okay, I think I found it.
Yeah, yeah. I see you said earlier to like,
oh, it's long as I can help one person.
If I say one life, it's worth itand I'll never forget, I still
(43:07):
clearly, remember the first timea stranger Came up to me and
said that I saved their life andI was like, you must be mistaken
this game. But you know what?
You resist that like that me andit's and I'm blessed.
Like, I've lost count of how many times that's happened and
again, establish confirms, right?
It is blessing and even our native experiences, when you can
(43:28):
take responsibility for what to do after them with them, that's
empowered. Yes.
Yes. There's a.
I'm so glad we got connected. Yeah, and I get to we're going
to we're going to talk again andmore often and, you know, but
until then Herbie, what's the best way for people to learn
more about you to connect with, you just go to her, be mac.com
(43:50):
from there. You can connect with me if you
want. I'm also, she meteor at and it's
pretty easy to find me at her Pee Mak.
So I want social media. If you put in every Mac, you
find me. Cool.
So I really Thank you for your time, for your authenticity, for
your sharing her. Be everyone listening to us.
I thank you. I, thank you for being here.
(44:14):
I, thank you for being alive. Really, from the bottom of my
heart. Every single one of you makes a
bigger difference in the world than you realize Please visit
real men, feel that org to see the blog post for this episode.
We'll have links to any of the resources discussed more.
The things we sharing will be there in text if that helps you
(44:34):
out, wherever discovering real, mindfield subscribe, like,
comment. Share this with someone that you
think needs a little bit of Hopeinspiration, right now, you can
always reach out to me at real men.
Feel at gmail.com, I'm always glad to hear from you.
And until next time, Choose life.
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