When Boys Become Boys | Messages and Development of Masculinity - Real Men Feel with Andy Grant

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Greetings and welcome to real men.
Feel, this is your host author, coach, and healer.
And he Grant, you can learn moreabout me at the Indy Grand.com.
Real men, feel invites you to redefine what masculinity means
in today's world. The I believe the only
difference. The only definition of
masculinity that matters is yours.
We remind me that you're human beings and have the right to
experience and express all of their emotions.

(00:24):
We have conversations that most men are not having but that all
men can benefit from You know, one of the most mentioned books,
the many learned guests of real men feel have said to me is when
boys become boys, development relationships and masculinity by
Judy, Judy. Judy is an educator researcher
and author, she teaches a courseon boys, psychosocial
development at Stanford University for book.

(00:46):
When boys, become boys highlights, boys, relational
strengths and how boys gender socialization can impact their
development relationships and well-being.
She also co-edited adolescent boys, exploring diverse cultures
of Boyhood. Good Judy.
Currently serves as chair of theglobal Men's Health advisory
committee at movember and co-chair of the board of
directors X at X Commando the center for masculinities and

(01:08):
social justice. She also advises the partnership
for male Youth and the boys clubof New York.
I recently discovered, we had a number of connections and
comment on LinkedIn. So, I reached out and I am very
psyched to say, welcome to real men, feel Judy.
Thank you so much, Andy. It's a pleasure to be here with
you. You do an amazing amount of
support for boys, and Men at. So, the first thing comes to my

(01:30):
mind is, like, what, what got you interested in that to begin
with? Oh, well, actually, it was boys
who kind of led me to the work. I was spending a lot of time
might, I have a younger brother who's nine years younger and so
after my first year of graduate school, I went home and was
basically chauffeuring a bunch of 13 year old boys around and

(01:50):
they were asking, you know what,I was learning at Harvard and
you know wanting to be impressedor whatever.
And I told them oh well, one of the most interesting things I've
learned And this year was near the work of Carol Gilligan who
eventually became my academic advisor and she had been doing
this work with adolescent girls and kind of what girls were
going through adolescence and how does best support them and
the things that they were comingup against and all that stuff.

(02:13):
And one of the boys said to me, you know, that's important and
good. But you know what, you know, we
have something to say to their stuff going on for us to and
nobody's looking at boys. And so he decided for me, he
said you should study boys, you can start with me.
And so I kind of sat with that, took it back with me.
You know, when I went back in the fall, the school and

(02:34):
mentioned it to Carol and she said, you should talk to him,
you know, clearly he's interested and wants to say
something. And so for her class, which I
was taking that semester on clinical, interviewing I, you
know, use that opportunity to interview him, he talked for two
hours about his various things that were going on his
relationships, you know, just messages.
He was getting about what a me and you're just all the

(02:55):
questions that he had in his mind to talk.
And he really did, he was so thoughtful Oil and had a lot to
say. And I don't think that he is
alone in being thoughtful and having a lot to say.
And so that kind of started my whole exploration of, you know,
that involved kind of just revisiting what do we know
about, boys. I mean, I think a lot of the
literature on human development psychology.

(03:15):
Kind of assumed we knew about boys and men since a lot of
earlier development and psychological studies had been
largely based on boys, you know,at a time when they were like,
oh, we can just study boys and men and extrapolate from there
but they had Did studied boys and men in a way that maybe
missed a part of their story or missed something in their
experience. And so I had a lot of fun

(03:36):
actually. Just, you know, getting to not
be a fly on the wall because obviously they knew I was there.
I really stood out. You know what, I went entered
all boys, you know, schools and such but they were so generous
and so forthcoming and just kindof saying like, yeah, that's
important to ask. Yeah, we can tell you and it's
long as they trusted that I was really interested in hearing it.
They had so much to share, and Iwas just lucky and grateful to

(03:58):
be there. R.
Well, that's phenomenal. So did it see that these boys?
But they seemed like they were lying to speak about this where
they were. They talking about this to
anyone else? Who either were you?
The first chance they took, goshthat's a great question.
Um, I think that they were, you know, they definitely wanted to
talk about it. They weren't they were utterly.

(04:19):
I started out them talking with and listening to early
adolescence, so kind of 7th, 8thgrade.
And then through high school anddefinitely they, they Wanted to
talk about it, but they weren't sure who with whom it would be
safe to do so. And some of them did talk about
it, like they're like, oh, you know, in my general peer group,
you know, if you kind of spill your guts and tell people these
things, they'll just, they'll use it against you, you know, it

(04:40):
could be, you don't want to reveal yourself and make
yourself vulnerable in that way.But, you know, some of them had
close friendships and they talked about the value of that,
like, you know, and how important those were to them and
how like, you know, my best friend knows me.
We can just be each other. He's we're totally different,
but we support each other in every way and it just helped.
Um to feel like they could get through life's in the inevitable

(05:01):
challenges and hurdles, you know, like the sense of being in
it together rather than alone was so valuable.
So that. Yeah, they had a lot of great
insights, your things that we might as a society, a tribute to
like, oh that's, you know, things that girls talk about
with their friends with that guys.
Don't that, you know, any of those stereotypes, ready.
Completely, you know, irrelevantat the minute.

(05:22):
I started listening to these boys and hearing what they had
to say because they were, like Isaid, really thoughtful really
attuned. Reading their relationships and
the social dynamics and what, you know, kind of track me.
I'm really trying to figure out at a time in their lives.
Like, what's going on? What's the reality?
And how can I, how can I fit in here?
Do I fit in? What's my place?
How can I show myself to others and not put myself at risk of

(05:44):
being teased or bullied? But, you know, really longing
for those kind of genuine authentic connections, you know?
Because of course, we all need that all people need that and
it's silly to Discount the possibility that boys and men
would want that as well, right? Yeah, I'm glad you said men
because I know men at every age,it's that challenge of what can
I share? What will be used against me

(06:05):
even by my friends? And, you know, just the kind of
the ballbusting and ribbing thatthat guys will do.
But I also know that when guys, I'm it like it hurts to like,
they know it's a joke, but it still hurts.
Exactly, exactly. So, tell me about the study that
led to the book. Okay, so so as I said, I started
out talking to adolescent boys and when I was, you know, and

(06:28):
every week I would meet with my advisor, Carol Gilligan and we
would talk about, you know, whatI was hearing as I was, you
know, interviewing observing it interviewing status and boys and
what I was hearing was they werekind of Starting to reconcile
not right, not reconcile, its kind of accepting the fact that
there is this gap between the way boys are said to be and the
way they experience themselves to be.
And I'm not saying that they accepted it like, oh okay, I'm

(06:50):
okay with it. They were just saying, this is
just how it is and part of growing up is accepting that
people just aren't going to see you for who you are.
And they were, it wasn't so muchthat they were like, telling me
as a conclusion, they were almost like asking me.
Like, is that what it's like? Is that what you're seeing as an
adult? Who's a few years older like, is
that what you're fine? Being as well.
So but they were kind of coming to feel like, okay.

(07:12):
We've had a few years of experience under our belt.
It seems like it's just very, very difficult or rare to have
spaces where you can be yourself, and you're lucky if
you do. But it's just seems very, very
rare. And so Carol said, you know,
maybe you need to look at earlier, maybe you need to look
at a time when they don't think,maybe that's just the way it is
when there's still more activelyresisting.
It it's not to say that the adolescent boys weren't

(07:34):
resisting it, but they were kindof saying like oh, you know what
you like yours. I'll get teased, it hurts when I
get teased and this more likely than not people use it against
me when I read my review myself.So I think I better just figure
out how to be very Savvy, very selective about who I show
myself to but accept that for the most part I can't just enter

(07:55):
a space and be myself that I need to be careful.
And so Carol was saying like, well, maybe go to look younger
when they're when they know these rules, haven't said in
these rules for engagement haven't yet, set in as the way
things are supposed to be. Or have to be.
And so they were more openly challenging it like oh, why
can't I give my friend a hug or why can't we snuggle together?
You know, or why can't I just beexuberant and really excited

(08:18):
about things because they the rules were just beginning to be
introduced. And so Carol encouraged me to
look at four year old boys in a preschool setting and sure
enough. I mean they were open and just
wore their hearts on their sleeves, you know, they would
think, you know, their tell you exactly what they were thinking
and feeling and so you never hadLeague second guess them because

(08:39):
they would show you exactly whatit is.
Are you hurt my feelings? Or don't boss me around it, just
a lot of openness. And so it was at this moment
where they could really be honest without having without
self-monitoring to the extent that we all learn to do when
we're participating in society and at a moment of transition,
when they were entering schools for the you know, for some of

(09:01):
them for the first time or at least starting to become more
invested in like, oh well what does it mean to be one of the
boys or what does it mean to? You know, be appropriate and
inappropriate boy or a desirableboy.
What are people valuing in boys and kind of learning to kind of
rein in some of that exuberance and figure out like if I want to
have status or power or influence.

(09:21):
If I want people to take me, seriously, how do I need to act?
And so they were becoming again it was very socially adaptive in
some way, you know, so that you can see why why they were doing
it. But there is also a kind of
sense of loss because then you lose that hard on the sleeve.
Kind of, you know, come as you are, that enthused that

(09:42):
unrestrained, enthusiasm and curiosity and interest starts to
kind of get a little bit harder to detect, you know, not as
obvious. And so my, my book kind of
documents my experience and it wasn't that they told me this
was happening, you know, these are far and five-year-old, boys.
It was that I experienced it in interacting and have interacting
with them and having relationships with them.

(10:03):
So I always feeling like, oh, they're pulling away or they're
being a little more. Discrete or trying to be
discreet, you know, in ways thatthey weren't when yet the
beginning of the school year. So that kind of, so that's
really what my book was about was really the three.
Main things was, first of all, boys have these relational
capabilities that are often overlooked and underestimated.

(10:24):
Like nobody really talks about it because again, we tend to
gender those things feminine like anything.
That's good at emotions good at relationships because our
society genders them feminine boys.
Learn because, boys are supposedto be quote unquote, the
opposite of girls over the Is ita feminine?
They learn. Oh, I'm not supposed to show
that as much. And so they've learned to tone
it down and be a little more selective about who they reveal

(10:45):
those things too. But they're absolutely there and
they don't lose those. And then the second thing is
that shift that shift in Readingthose messages, about what's a
real man. What's a real boy or whatever
and how they learn? How there's a shift they learned
to present themselves in different ways in order to align
with kind of societal expectations around masculinity.

(11:05):
And but then the good news is that they don't Bass.
Like I said, they don't lose those capacities, they continue
throughout their lives. As you mentioned, even as men of
all ages to seek connections andto resist disconnections.
And so to really acknowledge andvalue that aspect of their
humanity is kind of what my work, tries to emphasize and
highlight. Because I think that sometimes

(11:26):
the stereotypical discourse around what boys and men who
they are, or what they're capable of tends to discount or
actively, you know, push it. I need them to have feel like
they have to hide that or disguise it in some way.
When in fact, you know, if we think about the most successful
leaders or the most successful relationships, how to be a good

(11:47):
partner, how to be a good friend, how to be a good father.
If you have children, you know, all these things require those
relational capabilities to be intact, you know, and valued and
able and for boys and men to feel able to show those things.
And so they're things that are essential to their health,
happiness and success. But yet the messages that they

(12:08):
They can sometimes receive aboutwhat it means to be a real man
can create Conflict for them. In terms of what they feel like
they should be embarrassed by our can't show the other people.
Sorry, that was a mouthful. There's great grateful, thank
you. So does, does it seem to be that
the first like societal involved?

(12:28):
But there are some you start going to school.
That's what that's when the pressure to conform really kicks
in. I think I can very obviously,
because some people in some boysYoung Have families who are
like, you know, you can do whatever you want, you can say,
you're at home, that's fine. Yes, and some some families
might be more traditional or just have your for different
reasons. Different cultural reasons,

(12:50):
different values and beliefs. I think, every parent thinks
that they have their kids best interest at heart.
So it's just a matter of what they think, will allow their boy
to survive and thrive in the world as they know it.
And so, I don't think any parentgoes out with the agenda to
crush their boys. His spirits, I think at that
they're saying, you know, the world is dangerous, the world is

(13:12):
not always kind when, you know, and that was a huge dilemma
actually that the father's expressed when Carol and I met
with the father's because we were so struck by how tender and
affectionate they were when theybrought their boys in in the
morning for morning drop-off. And so Carol said, let's meet
with the fathers and find out what it's like for them to, you
know, experience their boys at this age you know?

(13:33):
And and the bot father's describe this and you know
dilemma of like on one hand Really cherishing hoping their
boys never would have to lose that exuberance, that kind of
spunkiness that really think just really loving to be with
people and that up out their nests and also wanting their
kids not to be the one who gets targeted and bullied and, you
know, called bad names and so wanting to keep them safe,

(13:56):
right? And so there's this balance and
it's a horrible choice, you know, for parents and boys to
have to make because obviously we'd in Ideal World, you could
be yourself and not have to get punished, you know, without the
Read or risk of punishment. But, but they also knew, you
know, unfortunately, the world isn't quite there yet.
And, and people could save a think like, this.

(14:17):
A, your kid loves this. Pink dress, and wants to wear a
pink dress to school. Well, you could say, at home,
it's safe to wear this pink dress, but at school, or in
society, it's a toss-up, maybe you'll find yourself in a space,
that's very accepting. But maybe you'll find yourself
in the space where they'll decide, that's a really bad
thing. And that's a reality as well.
You mentioned that, you know, the boys.

(14:38):
Is weren't weren't speaking all of this.
That would, it took the Observeryou to see some of these
changes, but I wonder where theyaware of the pressure to, to
change at all. I think so.
I mean they're aware of expectations and assumptions,
right? So they know for instance, if an
adult says, what's okay? With one adult versus another
like you know, what's up? What's okay to do with this

(14:59):
teacher? Who's maybe a little more
welcoming of differences and another teacher who has more
firm ideas about what's a good kid and how kids should act or
How a boy specifically should act.
So they weren't, you know, like I said, very astute readers of
the people and and of each otherand they would know how to based
on what they were experiencing and serving know how to

(15:20):
anticipate like, oh, look at that kid, got pushed around or
got made fun of when he showed this.
I'm going to be careful not do that.
So I would ask them things like you know like are you ever
expected to actor? Be a certain way or are there
things that you think other people want you to do that?
Sometimes you are there times when you don't really want to do
them. And what's that like And again,
they were really able to describe very clearly what was

(15:42):
going on from different perspectives, you know, one boy,
told me, you know, I'm actually friends with all of the girls
but I don't want, you know, the boss of the mean team which was
the boys team to find out because then he'll fire me from
his club and then I won't have aclub or a team and, you know,
and that would be a bummer, you know.
And so they know what the consequences are and they're

(16:02):
already starting to adjust themselves because what
motivates them to even want to, you know?
No. Aligned with these messages
about what boys should be like is that they are again that kind
of relational aspect of their existence, which is that they
want to identify and relate to the other boys and the other
girl, all the kids. But specifically they want to be

(16:22):
one of the boys with the boys. And so it's a relational motive
that drives the behavior. Not like somebody says, oh, you
have to be a man. And therefore, they like, okay,
in that case, I'll do this. I mean, there has to be a
genuine incentive there and thatincentive is so sincere.
The motivated by their desire tobe in genuine meaningful
connection with other people. But unfortunately a lot of the

(16:44):
messages that at least a more kind of traditional messages
that we have about masculinity, while they are not inherently
problematic Duke can make it more problematic.
I can make it more difficult forboys and men to establish the
kind of connections that have been shown to be protective, you
know, against psychological risk, like, low self-esteem and
depression. I can social risk like, risk of

(17:06):
substance use for numbing, you know, Unintended pregnancy
school, dropout the best protective factors having those
authentic, Mutual relationships.And the pathway to manhood, as
kind of traditionally. Spelled out really leads, boys
and men away from that possibility.
It makes it harder. It doesn't make it impossible,
but it makes it harder because in, you know, because

(17:26):
relationships depend on how you are present in that
relationship. And if you can't be
authentically present, then those, those authentic
relationships are just that muchmore difficult to come by,
right? Yeah, it's such this.
This horrible Twisted scenario that even at a young age, at
every age men are longing for connection for Community but
they these communities and connections are built to Ron

(17:47):
wearing these masks. And I so I knew that was the
case. I had didn't know it started so
young. I really thought there was more
kind of, you know, come on in. You know, that again, the
teenager prohibitive start putting, which mask should I
wear today and how can I fit into?
Not be noticed, but that it happens in preschool is just

(18:08):
It's very saddening. It is, it is.
And actually I just remembered what your original question was
was like, how early is it happening?
And so, it can happen even earlier than preschool if
they're hearing that they're having during those messages and
feeling those pressures, even earlier, if they happen to be in
an household or just an environment that says, you know,
this is for boys. And this is not for boys, then

(18:30):
they're going to learn that too,you know?
And so when they, when I went atthe zoo, actually heard a
parent, tell their baby, B Boys Don't Cry and I was like that's
how babies Express themselves. I think I'm not sure what you
want this baby to do other than cry and so you know sometimes
the messages are a little bit silly because you know that's

(18:52):
just how it is opening every show you open.
Like yeah. So many men are taught not to be
human right and it's horrible. It's you know it's what creates
this, this layer upon layer of fakeness and in authenticity and
trying to pretend to get it all figured out and we don't need
anybody's help. And it couldn't be further from
the truth. Exactly.
Because nobody succeeds alone and life is hard and we need

(19:14):
people. And to deprive anyone of those
resources that are so essential is like I said it's really sad
and it and we really put boys and men in a difficult situation
when we don't like I think I've compared it to like you know,
binding someone's arms and legs and throwing them in a pool and
saying swim swim and you're like, okay but let's not you

(19:36):
know, create Necessary obstacles.
When life is hard enough as it is.
Yeah. Right.
Go survive but without all the tools possible.
Exactly. Yeah.
And I love you call it the rulesfor engagement earlier those
like never heard that saying, even again at such a young age
and the Rules of Engagement for acting like a man or acting like
a real boy. It's, you know, I thought the

(19:57):
only time I've heard real boy, was, you know, for Pinocchio or
something. I didn't realize they, would
they do that? This unsaid pressure to even at
such young ages. So, so we know you started
Interviewing in this study started talking to boys at age
4. So, how long did you?
Did you stick with this group ofboys with that particular
goodbye, followed them weekly for the first year and actually

(20:18):
weekly for the second year to soPre-K and kindergarten and then
and then I came back and visiteda couple years later to check in
with them. I think it, that was third grade
2nd or 3rd grade, just to kind of see, you know, how things had
progressed. And then I, after I wrote my
book came out, they were much older and I shared the book when
I gave coffee. Because of the book to their
family, they said, oh some of them are nearby.

(20:40):
Why don't you call them up? And so I actually had coffee
with one of them who was, you know, now the way taller than
me, 64 people or and just kind of asked him what, you know
what, he remembered. And also I always love to check
in with my with the boys who aregenerous enough to, you know,
talk to me like you what did I miss?
You know what did I not get? And so for instance one of the
boys told me oh one of the things I didn't get at was how

(21:01):
close he was with his brother and how important that
relationship was precisely because some of the peer.
Just were so challenging and so he said it would have been nice
if you could have observed us athome to or something.
And of course, you know, the study is constrained in a lot of
ways. And one of the ways with, I
mean, I did make home visits to some of the boys families who
invited me to come over and see what their family was like at

(21:24):
home. But, you know, definitely,
that's that's a very valid pointand he and his brother continue
to be very close. And they were, you know, always
there for each other when sometimes the supports in their
peer or other school in a schoolat The Network's didn't went
there in the ways that they needed them to be.
So totally, at least at least for some siblings.
They didn't have to wear that mask.

(21:45):
Exactly. Exactly.
And it's so important to have those spaces, you know?
I mean there's this one study that was the Adolescent health
study that was started in the ninth mid 1990s and was
longitudinal and that they're the ones who found that the
single best protector against those risks.
That I mentioned, the psychological reason socialist
because having access to at least one close confiding

(22:06):
relationship, so that Could be with a sibling, it could be with
a friend, with a teacher, a parent, a mentor.
I could be with anyone but kids and adolescents who had at least
one were much better protected against kind of the risks that
can befall our kids, as they're going through, you know, the
various challenges of life. I wonder what stood out to you
as the most surprising thing from from all this.

(22:27):
All this research would boys. And I think, but what my, what
my partner's is he was, he's always, says, hit the thing that
strikes him is that they talk tome at all.
You know, I'm this, you know, there are many strikes against
me, I was older. I'm, I'm female identifying.
And and sometimes and in the beginning, when I was, you know,
kind of observing from a distance and trying to give them

(22:49):
their space and allowing them toapproach me as I felt
comfortable. There is a lot of, you know kind
of fun around no adults or no girls are no teachers and so it
kind of Negotiating that but what I guess what surprised me
was the fact that they eventually once they figured out
they could trust me that I wasn't going to tell on them
that I was really interested in learning from them that I and I

(23:10):
would tell them things like, youknow, because I was a girl, when
I was younger I don't know what it's like to be a boy.
And so I'd really like to learn and I would love to learn that
from you, then they felt like, oh, okay.
Then you need to know this and Igot to tell you about this and
sometimes they would like kind of pull on my like, pulling my
shirt tail and be like, Oh, comeover here.
I got to tell you what. Yesterday.
And so I felt again so lucky andso grateful that they wanted to

(23:35):
tell me these things and just felt like how fun is this, you
know, I mean finding the sense that you know, getting to hang
out with them but also also kindof being having the privilege of
kind of documenting that so thatother people could see.
Look at what they can do, look at what they're capable of
knowing and doing their relationships.
So definitely those stereotypes about, we know what they're

(23:55):
like, and they're not being havenot having the capacity or
desire for real. Leadership, that's all, you
know, not true. So obviously not true because
they really are eager to connect.
They absolutely have the capacity and desire to do so and
when they do I mean they they are so appealing and so
interesting and fun to be with and there's so much to learn

(24:16):
from them. I think originally my study was
called learning what boys. No or listening to boys voices.
I played around with different titles because I'm like this is
what I'm doing and and and it's not just it's not like something
that was special or unique. To me, I think that anyone who
it shows, a genuine shows up with authenticity, the way that
you do and really shows a genuine interest in learning,

(24:37):
boys can tell them, you know, all about their lives and what
they need and what's going on for them.
So what sort of masculine Norms are there for a boy in
kindergarten? Well, there were all sorts of
the boys. Actually, they were so clever.
They created this club called the mean team to identify your.
So, all of the boy, when I've asked them things like, what do

(24:58):
I need to do? What would I have to do?
If I wanted to be a boy, they say.
Well, first of all, you'd have to be a member of the mean team.
Because the mean team is for allof the boys.
And if you are a girl, then you'd be on the nice team and I
said, oh okay. But the thing is, you can get
fired from the mean team and endup on the nice team.
If you break one of the rules for the, like I said, the rules,

(25:18):
For engagement. So like if you're friends with
the girls or if you like games that the girl, you know, if you
play with dolls, the way that only girls are supposed to play
with dolls or or if you or sometimes it was even stuff that
was not necessarily transgressing in terms of doing
something that was considered feminine.
But if you didn't obey what the boss of the mean team was doing,
so it if you didn't play along with the hierarchy that had been
established, among the boys, that could also get you in

(25:40):
trouble. And sometimes it was nice stuff
too. Like if you didn't, if you
excluded someone, you could get fired from the mean t.
And so it was just this interesting thing to kind of
Keep things feeling safe and more under control.
And so they gets to creating a sense of certainty and
predictability. Like, if there were these rules
and you follow them then you could continue, you know with

(26:00):
your membership you can contain have this sense of acceptance
and belonging and you know, whenI ask one of the boys that girl,
what are some of the benefits and what are the good things
about being on it, he would say like well, you know, if you have
trouble doing something then allof the boys would come to your
assistance. You know, they would come and
help you do it and so you wouldn't have to be alone but it
I always came back to like so there is no it's just motivation

(26:21):
like even and even when I said like, oh well, what is what
would be mean? What's something that's mean?
Like was it actually about cruelty was what kind of what I
was getting at. And it wasn't it was more about
like mischief and because again,because they had read the read
the signs. So to speak like, oh, well, boys
are supposed to be rambunctious or mr.
Bissell. They felt like, you know,
sometimes the girls are playing a nice quiet game and you'll
come over and you kind of run around them and yell and scream.

(26:43):
That kind of thing was was mean,it wasn't about hurting people.
And in fact, when He's gonna liein your somebody accidentally
got hurt. You know, one of the boys told
me, I don't really want to be a part of that.
That's not really something thatI want to do.
And so you know, feeling conflicted, if things did get,
you know, to the point where they were, you know,
accidentally hurting somebody, you know, because again, the

(27:06):
four year olds, they're not out to, they're not really out to,
you know, Express anything that's you know that we would
consider cruel or aggressive. It wasn't a full-on Lord of the
Flies experience. This mean, Team yet.
No, no, no. For sure, not.
So did you notice and did the boys notice?
Was there any sort of price to pay like what was lost for?

(27:28):
Not engaging with the nice team?Absolutely, for not engaging
with a nice team. I think, you know like that.
One boy said he actually enjoyedplaying with the girls
sometimes, you know, one of the girls was really into Star Wars
which had its, you know, second video Star Wars first came out
when I was five and then when these kids were five, it kind of
made me realize Surfaced. And so they were like she was

(27:49):
totally into Star Wars knew all the characters and he thought
she was pretty cool and fun and she's had cold toy Studio
Millennium Falcon obviously. And so he wanted to play with
her and he would have play dateswith her but that was the thing
where he didn't want the other boys to find out because he was
afraid of you know, breaking therule and then getting fired from
the mean team. But that there were consequences

(28:10):
to. Like I said, you know when I
when you know, why I was saying that that one boy said the
advantage was if you needed help, they would help you.
They had your back so to speak. If You know, the way that older
boys will talk about it, but thedisadvantages, he goes well,
sometimes they want to do thingsand I don't want to do them.
Like, for instance, the example of hurting somebody, like, you
know, one, one boy said, oh let's go over and you know,

(28:30):
throw these leaves on there, whatever.
And he's like he didn't really want to do that or another time
he they wanted to play soccer and he wanted to play basketball
but he felt like he couldn't do that.
And so she said sometimes I wantto make my own decisions and I
said well why don't what makes it hard to do that and he said
well because then I You that, you know, they'll they'll all

(28:51):
gang up and come after me. So, kind of deviating or being
different. Could result in everybody else
deciding. Oh, you're not with us after
all. So we're going to team up and be
against you. And so, they were again, very
aware of what the consequences were of stepping of
nonconformity, right? Or stepping outside of the group
norm. And, you know, and the been

(29:13):
those, they knew it wasn't all good at knew.
It wasn't all bad. So, even the boy said to me,
because I see, It's so overall do you like being on it?
He goes well I kind of do but I kind of don't and so they could
express that kind of feeling divided.
You know, they wanted the sense of group membership but they
also felt that you know it did limit their freedom and their
choices and sometimes they didn't want to do what the mean

(29:35):
team was doing. But they felt like, oh well I
have to. So do you find that masculine
qualities are more innate or learned?
I think. Given that what's considered
masculine varies across cultures, I think that each
culture or subculture decides what they value in boys and men,

(29:59):
and then encourage that. And so I think that individuals
are born with temperaments and predispositions.
You know each of us is unique inthat sense, right?
And so you could have you know what we would call a tangra
tomboy, right? You could have a girl be very
masculine but and you could say that that Rate USA.
She's really tough and strong and loves to play.

(30:21):
And because our society, decidesthat physical toughness and
strength is a masculine thing, you could say that she's very
masculine. You could even say that those
qualities in her or those skillswere innate, but I don't know
that it's but that's kind of socially constructed and
determined. You know what I mean?
She could just as well, you know, it another culture.
Like, let's say we had there's aculture where that kind of

(30:43):
physical strength, wasn't specific specimen specific to a
Under then you could still say it would still be an eight but
it wouldn't be considered innately masculine right?
And so it does that make sense? Like so kind of we assign what
we decide is masculine or feminine, but there's definitely
things qualities, personality traits, whatever skills
interests that are innate that then Society deems gem feminine

(31:08):
or masculine. Yeah I got it.
No it does make sense. Yeah.
Think things are innate but thenthe labels are not exactly
exactly. You said it so much better than
I do. To write concisely and clearly
thank you. So, based on all your
interviews, everything that you've witnessed and picked up
from, from boys, and from their fathers, from their parents.

(31:28):
What's your kind of best advice for parents with who have young
boys now? Josh, I think I think the again
Takei because I love I love thatthey call you the king of
authenticity because I think that that's really Central.
I usually when I give advice andI'm hesitant to do so because
I'm not a perfect parent myself.But the things that I strive for

(31:51):
our, this kind of authenticity that is not about being perfect
far from it. And I find that kids really feel
reassured and relieved to know that they had.
I mean, obviously, you don't Andit everything to be chaotic all
the time, but they like to know that it's okay to make mistakes
that even adults don't always know and to do it in a way
that's kind of reassures them that we're going to help you

(32:13):
through this but we can't guarantee anything and that's
okay. Life is just like that.
Then they don't feel like failures when they come across
their own limitations or when they make their own mistakes,
you know? And so when and so I guess the
advice I usually pass along because it's what I heard from
the fathers and mothers of theseboys.
Because eventually the mothers when Heard that we were meeting

(32:34):
with a father so they're like, well we want to talk to you too
and we want to meet to so. But it's really about, you know,
showing up as you know, as humbly and as authentically as
you can, you know, and sometimesbeing like, you know, that's a
good question or that that's a real problem.
And sometimes, you know, like when father said, you know, his
son wanted to know, you know, what our friendships about.

(32:54):
You know, what's that about? What are your friends like, what
do you like about that? Or what is it?
When we get angry? Because we get really angry
sometimes and what do we do withthat?
And to have someone say, No. Yeah.
Of course, you're going to feel these things and there are
better ways and worse ways to express them.
And so let's talk about that. And what do you think about and
having that conversation? I think a lot of times that's
parents we feel like we need to be perfect and we need to show

(33:16):
up as perfect in order to make our kids feel safe.
But I think that ironically, it's when we are appropriately
authentic. Does that make sense?
Like we, we don't want to burdenthem with our troubles but we
it's fine to let them know that.Yeah, we're struggling to work.
Certainly figuring things out. Things are scary to us, too.
And this is what we do and we'llfigure it out together.

(33:39):
I feel like and so I usually saystart with listening right?
Start to listening start with listening so that you can find
first of all, figure out what exactly they're asking because
we I also jump to conclusions like I hear this like oh,
they're asking about Gunplay forinstance, I'm like, oh no, you
know, there's this like automatic slippery slope to does
this mean they're going to be violent and aggressive but we're
just wondering what it is you know and and at what I think

(34:01):
observed with the boys in my Class Act.
And that in that particular class actually, was at the
Gunplay didn't for the boys carry any of the negative
connotations. It was just a way for them to
instantly relate to the other boys, not because boys have to
play with guns, but because the boys in this class happened to
play with guns. And so if they said, oh look,
here's a Lego. Whatever gun.
I see it. You see it, cool.

(34:22):
We both see it, right? But then actually that year one
of the school shootings happenedand that was obviously scary to
them. And when that happened, they
stop playing with the guns because they hadn't.
Is how guns her people. So you know, then you realize
oh, it's I think that it's the same thing that, you know,
adults do with Barbies and girls.
I like, oh no. She likes Barbie.
That means she's going to have body image issues, or she's

(34:44):
going to think that this is the only one way to be beautiful or
whatever. And so adults have a lot of
connotations and to kind of stopourselves from going down our
own Paths of associations and check in with the kid.
And so, again, starting with listening seeing what their
questions really are and not necessarily feeling like we have
to have the answers but just being with them in the question
or something. As being with them in the

(35:04):
struggle, like sometimes something hurts and you know,
friend doesn't want to be your friend anymore and that sucks.
And you're like, yeah, I get that.
And they don't want you to solveit for them because then it
almost feels like it. Trivializing the problem like,
oh, there was a simple solution and why don't you just do this
but sometimes they just want someone to hear it and to know
what their understand what they're going through.
The boys have said themselves, you know, just that sense that

(35:25):
someone else knows what you're going through and understands
because it's just they said, it's just kind of comforting and
I think that's what I think that's among the best things
that adults can provide you as parents or teachers or anyone
wanting to support Boys and Men actually because, you know, that
I hear that an adult relationships often to like know

(35:45):
what, you don't need to fix anything.
Just listen to what I have to say and let it just be.
But yeah, so many people keep things pent-up and but
especially men were part of the part of our training fix things,
take action drive forward and soit can be tough to just oh I
just have to nod. That's the Tenth of the
interaction. You want from me?
Okay, I can do that, right? And it's so well intentioned,

(36:07):
right? Our hearts are in the right
place and we see someone we careabout hurting.
We want to fix it for them but then sometimes if we can remind
ourselves like when were hurtingdo we want someone to offer you?
No Simple Solutions or sometimesand so it's a constant practice,
right? I find it myself too because I'm
a fixer to and when somebody presents a problem like oh my

(36:27):
gosh what can I do to help you make it better?
And some things just you know, you can't He can't.
All you can do is be there and let them know, you know, you're
with them, you understand? And you know, that it's going to
get better with time righty. So yeah.
So there was a great example. You said you were a fixer, and
I'm used to fixer being labeled as masculine and so wanting to

(36:49):
fix. Things can be an 8 and then
Society goes and blows it and gives it some other label and,
you know, Conformity or nonconformity or whatever it
might be, but great and that's related to those masks you're
talking about, right? Because if we could just come
and show up as we are With the whole range of human emotions.
How freeing would that be, right?
There's no constraint like, oh, if you like this, or you do that

(37:10):
or you have this skill or interest then?
Well, you can't have that because that's a, that's the
wrong category. That's not the category you were
assigned. It's just like, it's really
arbitrary and it's unnecessary. I think that if we could just
relax those a little bit and it's that people come as they
are and say that, you know, that's fine, that's great.
You know, we really need people to be different and to bring

(37:32):
different skills and perspectives and opinions to
make Society richer. I think that's deaf all ways a
plus. And so why why flatten everybody
into, you know, one or the other?
When there's so much more that we can offer individually?
If we're allowed to kind of do the things we most feel
passionately about and are good at, don't agree.
More awesome, Judy, I find you and your work, fascinating.

(37:56):
I really want to thank you for joining us today.
What's the best way for people to learn more about everything
that you're up to? Oh my goodness.
Well I have I have a very informal webpage, it's through
WordPress and I think it's in the bayou that you included in
the description for this should have it memorized but I don't

(38:16):
and if they want to reach me I'mon LinkedIn and that's a good
way to message me and then I canprovide them with my email that
way. And so I'm happy to, you know,
if I can be of help please reachout and happy to do.
So, right. Thanks again for joining us to
D. Thanks.
To everyone for listening and finding us and please visit real
men. Feel that org, there will be a

(38:37):
blog post for this episode will have links to all the books and
resources mentioned and whereveryou're discovering real.
Men, feel, please give a like, subscribe, share this episode
with someone that would find Value in it, which is everybody.
And you can always reach out to me at real men.
Feel at gmail.com, always glad to hear from you.
And if you're not yet in the real men, feel private Facebook
group, there is one, and you canget there right away by

(38:59):
visiting, real men, feel dot orgslash group.
And until next time, be good to yourself and the little boys in
your life be well.

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When Boys Become Boys | Messages and Development of Masculinity

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}When Boys Become Boys | Messages and Development of Masculinity