June 13, 2025 • 51 mins
Exploring Masculinity and Sensitivity: A Conversation with Ben Curtis
In this episode of Real Men Feel, host Andy Grant engages in a heartfelt conversation with Ben Curtis, an award-winning actor, musician, speaker, and coach who is passionate about guiding men toward thriving in all aspects of life. Ben shares his journey of growing up as a sensitive man, the challenges faced due to societal expectations of masculinity, and the founding of Dude Nation, an organization that fosters healthy masculinity.
Key topics include the impact of sensitivity on male identity, the myths surrounding masculinity, and the importance of community and emotional intelligence. Ben also introduces innovative initiatives like Dude Nation's AI coaching assistant, Aiden, designed to offer support and resources for men.
Through personal anecdotes and deep reflections, Ben and Andy aim to dispel harmful stereotypes and foster spaces where men can feel, express, and connect authentically.
00:00 The Burden of Self-Reliance
00:22 Introduction to Real Men Feel
00:35 Meet Ben Curtis: Actor, Musician, and Coach
01:37 The Birth of Dude Nation
02:51 Growing Up Sensitive
03:27 The Power of Sensitivity
04:46 Challenges and Realizations
11:16 The Importance of Emotional Boundaries
16:33 Myths of Masculinity
19:49 The King Archetype and Masculinity
21:29 The Dude Nation Gathering Idea
22:32 Introduction to Dude Nation
23:01 Creating Safe Spaces for Men
25:47 The Role of Community in Men's Health
28:28 Transformative Stories from Dude Nation
34:06 Challenges Men Face Today
41:46 The Evolution of Masculinity
45:07 Final Thoughts and Resources
Connect with Ben
Ben Curtis -- https://thedudenation.com/
Facebook -- https://www.facebook.com/thedudenation
Instagram -- https://www.instagram.com/the_dude_nation/
TikTok -- https://www.tiktok.com/@bencurtis4235
YouTube -- https://www.youtube.com/@BenCurtis
Resources
Dude, You're Getting Well Podcast -- https://open.spotify.com/show/2hZUEOinJaWKInhkyG1qme?si=daa3d24d1e4941b7
Aiden, the AI coach -- Call 845 470 DUDE.
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Book a Clarity Call with Andy and get clear on your goals, what's in your way, and what you can do about it at https://theandygrant.com/talk
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
RMF Facebook Group | http://realmenfeel.org/group
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
#RealMenFeel ep 357
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
But when you carry all of it, you rob someone else the
opportunity to be of service, you push other people away, you
create yourself in a vacuum thatI can do it, I can do it.
And you train other people to stop offering help.
And then you feel like totally aload and defeated, like you have
no help. And so I think it's sort of the
self fulfilling prophecy that's really ingrained in US.
(00:20):
I found myself in that position many times.
Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel.
This is your host, author, coachand healer, Andy Grant.
Please visit theandygrant.com tolearn more about me.
Riemann Feel has conversations that most men are not having,
but that all men and the women who love them can benefit from.
My guest today is Ben Curtis. Ben is an award-winning actor,
musician, speaker and coach driven by a passion for guiding
(00:42):
men toward thriving in all aspects of life.
He's the visionary Co founder and CEO of Dude Nation, the
global startup shaping the future of men's Wellness.
Today, Ben and I talk about growing up as sensitive men and
explore multiple myths of masculinity.
He shares what he sees as some of the biggest challenges facing
men today and what he wishes more men knew.
(01:02):
Let's do it. Hello Ben, and welcome to Real
Men Feel. Hello, Andy, it's a pleasure to
be here. Good, I hope.
I hope you feel that way at the end.
I hope so. If it's any league, like our
conversation before and any of your episodes I've listened to,
I think I'm going to feel even better just being here in a safe
(01:25):
space, right? This is what it's all about,
like making safe spaces for men to feel and be real.
And I really appreciate you and who you are and and your
audience listening. I appreciate that.
So you are the Co founder of theDude Nation.
So let's start there. What inspired you to create The
Dude Nation? Well, that's a great question.
(01:48):
I felt like something I had to do.
You know the saying if you see something, say something.
It was like I saw something and no one else was saying it, and
it was to the point where, oh, I'm the one who's supposed to
lead that something. But to rewind, I think what
really did it is one actually had a really awesome father, A
(02:09):
lot of emotional intelligence, encouraged me to feel my
feelings. Was the first one in his family
to go to therapy. Both my parents carried
generations of trauma and depression, a lot of suicide on
both sides, a lot of mental health issues.
Both of them were the first onesto interrupt that and growing up
in the South when they did in the early 1900s, It's I'm a
(02:32):
miracle, you know, and I, I think it's AI feel so blessed to
have grown up in a home that wasso open minded in a place that
was not. My parents also travelled the
world and they taught me to do that.
So I started seeing a perspective other than my
immediate environment and I saw the hearts of other people.
And I've always been a really sensitive kid, really sensitive
boy and wasn't always welcome inschool, But my mom nurtured
(02:56):
that. She saw it, she spoke to it.
And even a woman some point in high school said, you know,
girls may not find the sexy right now, but if you keep this
up, eventually the right woman will respect you for this.
And I never forgot that. And it really did feel like
being sensitive felt like what we used to say in the 80s, a
handicap, like something in my way.
(03:17):
And it was like something that Ididn't that like made me
different from everyone else. And I slowly, thank God, I I
became a professional actor. I learned how to use it, but I
started to see how my sensitivity could be my
superpower. And it wasn't really till I got
sober, I put down drugs and alcohol.
(03:37):
When I really started developinga relationship with men and
leading men's work, that's when I saw I'd been a leader for a
long time. All the feelings I felt really
needed to be dealt with with other men.
I'd done them with women and, and that was great, but some of
the stuff needed to go deeper. And I, I started learning that
only men could hold that. I learned I didn't trust men,
(03:57):
especially men that looked like you, just anyone that presented
as powerful or what we call alpha.
And but I felt safe, oddly enough, with gay men.
And what I learned is that it took a lot to be gay when I grew
up. And my friends who had the
courage to come out and be themselves in that world, I was
(04:20):
like, whoa, they are. There's nothing but authenticity
coming out of that person. And then my father became one of
the first openly gay ministers in the South.
It was very controversial. And it was something that opened
my eyes to that. And I started to see him lead
and then he started a support group for men going through
sexual abuse and I saw him lead that.
(04:40):
And then I saw my dad end a relationship with my mom that
wasn't working and lead in a newlife there.
My parents get happier. And then kind of Fast forward to
I've I started getting in the Wellness world.
I got out of bartending and thenyoga and meditation and breath
work. And I've been teaching that
stuff for about 15 years. And all my clients started to be
(05:01):
men. And I realized that was my gift.
Oh, they trust me. And they're actually looking for
more than just like some yoga. Like, you know, there's clearly
they're asking for coaching or some therapy.
So I got certified as a coach. I looked into being a therapist.
And my therapist was even like, yeah, it seems like you really
like being more active and, you know, involved.
(05:21):
And I met this coach, now dear friend and mentor.
Preston smiles. And he was leading a coaching
group, like, fell in my lap or in my algorithms all over my
face in the middle of the pandemic.
And I was like, OK, fine, dude, I'm going to sign up for your
work. I've never paid you before, but
I did. And one of the greatest things
out of that is that Preston encouraged me to start my own
(05:44):
men's group, and I did. And so that was the lion's den.
It was called. My dad died while I started that
and that was the only thing I could show up for.
And those men carried me. And I realized I'd been leading
sober men's retreats for a decade.
But I thought, why is this only have to be for men who identify
as Alcoholics or addicts or, youknow, going to that maybe
(06:07):
extreme? Is there something for all of
us? And I didn't see a whole lot of
it. I saw stuff for like, our dads
saw stuff for kids. But I was like, where's stuff
for like us and these multi generations from like 20 to 60
or 70, like, you know, where's that?
Like how do we connect? We're all told we're so
different generationally. So it was just like a whisper.
(06:30):
And it started with the podcast.My friend was like, my best
friend was like, Ben, we got to talk.
I love your work, but the Lion'sDen is like one of the biggest
sex superstores in the world. So I think you should change
your name, as much as I love that you guys roar and all that.
And I was like, I feel you, man.I appreciate that.
That's great feedback. He's like Brandy 101, bro.
(06:51):
I'm just like, real talk. And I said that's why you're my
best friend. And I said, like, dude, you're
getting well once. And he's like, that's it.
Nobody else has that. You're the Dell, dude.
And I'm like, but I'm past Dell.He's like, yeah, but if you can
tell your story of what happenedand how you've reclaimed that
work now, I realized dude was a source of shame for me.
That word, I wanted nothing to do with it and long story, long
(07:17):
and to the point like that really just was what there was
to do and to have a conversationabout it.
So if I was uncomfortable with Icould reclaim it and started as
a conversation piece then becamethe whole organization.
And so dude was kind of there all along.
I founded this 10 years ago, butI did.
It's when I met Adam Lamb that it kind of all synced together
and he helped to get to the nextlevel.
(07:39):
And now we've got leaders of allkinds and growing organization,
and we really look to be an umbrella for for healthy
masculinity for all generations.Very cool.
I want to back up to, to kind ofgrowing up sensitive 'cause my
experience is very similar to that.
I, I was a emotional crying kid and as an adult I realized I, I
(08:03):
was empathic and that other people's emotion coming through
me and I would be bawling and like thinking there's no reason
for me to be crying. Why?
What is this? And I just thought I was great
and even my I've been married, oh goodness, 26 years, 27 years
now. I've been married a long time
and my wife was warned that whenshe before she met me that anti
(08:26):
sensitive and. I can say my wife thought I was
gay. She was like, you're so, you're
so there. Like why does why is does a man
being called sensitive still? Well, to me it still feels like
a put down, like it's an insult.It is you, you said a handicap.
So do you still feel it that way?
If like if I, if I, oh, there's Ben, Hey, you're a really
(08:48):
sensitive guy. Does that?
Does that, does that feel supportive?
Or is it feeling now? I'd be like thank you man, yes I
am. Come off world.
Look at this dude. In fact, I mean, here's me,
Andy. I was wearing my like, Dude
Nation shirt. I was on the street corner of
Rhinebeck where I live, my dad, and it was the anniversary of
his death. I called my best friend Matt
(09:11):
Johnson. He lives across the street.
He's been with me through this work.
And like I said, can we go on a walk?
And he was like, what's going on?
I was like angry and confused and like, I didn't know what was
happening. And then all of a sudden I was
like, right, which is sometimes before grief, I don't know
what's going on in my body and my brain's just like, what if I
don't do? And I just like fell bawling in
(09:31):
his arms. And I was like, I feel weird up
in the middle of town. He was like, he just started
laughing. He was like, do you know how odd
bread this is? You're in a pink dude shirt
crying in the arms of a large man in the middle of your town.
He said, thank you, Ben Curtis, I love you so much.
And so that's kind of me. I really learned to own it.
(09:52):
And I've had enough men thank mefor being that.
Like, I don't feel like I have achoice, but I've learned to own
it. And I think that's the thing.
Anything that feels like we're aprisoner of, it's always
ourselves. And it's how we create it and
what our programming is what we're told.
And like, we finally we get older.
We're like, oh, I don't have to listen to anybody.
Oh, my God, what have I been doing?
(10:13):
Why did I give so much? You know, hopefully we make it
this long, right? There's a lot of I've had many
times when I didn't think I would and I I didn't know how to
love myself for a long time and I did a lot of self sabotaging.
And even though I liked the sensitive side, it wasn't
working fully in life. It was like, you know, I was a
(10:35):
really successful actor and thenI'd have nothing or I was a
really passionate lover and thenI'd have be alone and I was a
really great musician. And then I'd be like suicidally
depressed while I'm like touringthe country and I'm like, what's
going on, you know, And so I realized I had to slow down and
thank God, like I got arrested in some big.
(10:56):
So there's some interventions along the way.
I called them higher power moments.
The universe is like, Nope, OK, not too far.
That has had me start to look atlearning how to re parent and
love myself. Even though I had like these
great parents. What I did learn is we didn't
have emotional boundaries growing up.
Boundaries was not in my vocabulary till my 30s till not
(11:20):
even in like it took me going toal Anon and doing this
codependent work to learn that you know, I was angry at someone
else in my life for drinking andit turned out I was the one
without the boundaries. Like I was the one enabling all
this toxic behavior. I was the one choosing to be in
relationships over and over again with, you know, and, and,
and beating myself up for it. So anyway, there's a lot there
(11:42):
that's not really what you asked, but I'm passionate about
this topic. I love you, man.
I'm so glad there's a sensitive dude like you out there.
And that's why I used to put, like, helping, you know,
sensitive men. That was it, like 2.
I served. And I don't know when to go a
little further than that becauseI realized not many men were
(12:02):
able to identify openly as sensitive.
And it was just like, niching myself down to like, OK, Eddie,
bed out there. Hello.
It's OK. And I saw your show, and it was
really moving that someone made a whole show about it.
And I was like that. That's why I need to keep
speaking up that guy. So growing up in the emotionally
(12:26):
open house and high emotional intelligence and you could be
yourself, when did you realize that wasn't the norm for all
your other male friends? Pretty early because my dad was
a Christian minister and he was like, yeah, go to synagogue.
And my Jewish friends are like, what are you doing here?
And I'm like, this place is awesome.
(12:46):
They're like, OK, do you really want to be in Hebrew school?
It's like prison for us. But you're having a good time.
Great. I loved it.
I don't. My dad was such a trailblazer
and pioneer and civil rights leader, and my mom worked with
refugees and my parents have always worked with people who
didn't look like them or come from the same place.
So it's just like, Oh yeah, thisis.
(13:10):
I just felt like it was there the whole time.
I felt othered from the fact that my best friend was black.
I was so different for that alone in the South and that I
was really proud of that and would like fight for him and
like that that still was an issue.
Then it just I was so angry as akid.
That was like, I just I knew it was different.
(13:33):
I didn't care and it was it was pretty clear, you know, I think
it's tough to survive. Like I was like, OK, I can feel
that I've got something these kids don't, but also they can
kick everyone's ass and I can't yet.
Like they, there's something they're getting.
But like, I felt like I just hadto make it through high school
and then I was going to like at least get to the next part
(13:54):
'cause I could see a lot of superficiality.
I, I went to a school that was kind of breeding.
We'll see. My school is really great, very
religious, a lot of money pouredin there, a lot of privilege.
Not everyone used that power andprivilege as well as other
people and a lot of misuse of power and sort of what I felt
was enabling that behavior. Not all of those students got
(14:18):
reprimanded or went under the radar for it or could get away
with it. And maybe leading world
companies now. So that was a little like, I
don't know if I agree with everyone here.
And it kind of grew me as an individual, right?
So it allowed me to be OK with being different and have, oh,
here's the other thing. I think this will answer your
(14:39):
question. I just heard it.
Thanks, Dad. He was such.
He was so bullied as a kid. And one of the greatest tools he
taught me was that bullies, like, hurt people, hurt people,
you know, he said. Bullies are.
I remember he sat me down. He's like Benjamin.
Bullies are some of the most scared, frightened little boys
(14:59):
you'll ever meet. And they act all beg and tough
and they're so scared. And that helped me so much
'cause my dad was not a fighter,I was definitely more scrappy
than him. But even like, I wanted to kick
some ass, but I was afraid of death or dying or hurting
someone or hurting myself. So I managed to stay out of it.
But I was like, I, I was right there.
And bullies scared me and I but I finally learned some
(15:21):
compassion and I think that's how I I navigated that.
Yeah, it's funny, I I'm only realizing this now.
I think my biggest fear of bullies was becoming so upset
that I would cry. Like if you would just start
beating me up, Oh good, that that's the easy stuff.
But if I'm so scared and tense and overwhelmed that I start
crying, that was far worse than being bloodied.
(15:43):
Interesting. That whatever, no.
No, that's important, Andy, thatyou're saying that.
And because there's someone who's who's listening, that's
identifying and I'm actually seeing my anger even more like
I, I, I'm very clear. I was afraid of my anger as a
child. It did not feel safe.
And I was afraid I would really,really hurt someone because I'd
so much pent up anger. And you said something at the
(16:05):
beginning of the show. I don't think that anger is
mine. I think a lot of it was my
parents. I think it was a lot of it.
You know, them at each other andat their families and the
generations. And, you know, that's why I say
like, I hope it's amazing we make it this far.
You know, we're just these little bings like absorbing all
this stuff and what do we do with it, right?
(16:26):
And so if we can create safer spaces for us, like that's
that's why. Yeah, we're here today,
hopefully. All right, so jumping towards
today, what are some of the biggest myths about masculinity
that you still see men carrying?One, you said it, that we have
to carry it and that we have to carry it alone.
(16:47):
I still notice myself doing this.
I think it's deeply programmed. But like that we're supposed to
be the ones to carry it all. And in that it's, it's still
training myself to ask for help to not carry it alone.
Like it's OK to go create something and make something of
yourself and practice carrying some of the load.
(17:07):
But when you carry all of it, you rob someone else the
opportunity to be of service. You push other people away, you
create yourself in a vacuum thatI can do it, I can do it.
And you train other people to stop offering help and and then
you feel like totally a load anddefeated, like you have no help.
And so I think it's sort of the self fulfilling prophecy that's
(17:29):
really ingrained in US. I found myself in that position
many times, even like leading myfirst retreat with a business
partner with other people, like still trying to do stuff on my
own. And I'm like, I'm going to make
the fire. And thank God because I, I said
at the beginning, hold me accountable for for delegating,
for giving away leadership, for not like robbing people of that.
So friend tapped me on the shoulder.
(17:50):
He goes, Ben. Yeah.
What are you doing? I'm making the fire.
Yeah, I can see that. Why are you doing that?
Because I really want to make the fire.
He's like, yeah, I can see that.Don't you think that'd be great
for someone else to do? And I was like, oh, thank you,
man. Yeah.
He's like, I'll go. He goes, no, no, no, you won't.
(18:11):
I'll go delegate it. You go do what you need to do
next, right. And says that kind of stuff.
Right. I don't remember what the
question was anymore, but something about present day.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess myths.
Oh, that we that, that our bank account equals our self worth.
(18:35):
I don't know if it's like a myth, but like, I think it's
something a lot of us deal with.It's not real but like it shows
up everywhere. That's making I'm definitely
this flashback to the movie WallStreet where Martin Sheen is in
is in talking to. Is it Charlie Sheen?
Yeah, Martin's you know, he's talking to his his son and there
there's father and son in the movie too and he's in the
elevator. Just he that's perfect acting of
(18:57):
he's all calm and like, well, son, I don't know this.
And then he just snaps it. And I don't judge a man by the
size of his wallet and he just. But I that's the one thing I
remember from that movie that that that.
Well, exclaimed that, but it's any time talking someone talks
about money and worthiness and that's how you're measured.
I always think of that. Yeah, Also that you have to be
strong, look a certain way to bemasculine, That you have to
(19:22):
always be the one to lead all the time.
That we're not good listeners, That masculinity is dangerous.
I think that's a myth that masculinity is toxic, is
made-up, that masculinity is violent, is made-up.
I think those are the big ones right now.
It's, it's like uninitiated masculinity, unconscious
masculinity, ungrounded masculinity, immature
(19:45):
masculinity, right? Just those who haven't been
cared for, right? And it's a really great example
of one of the four masculine archetypes is the king.
And a lot of us know that king energy.
And you see all those brands on Instagram that's like rising
king kings of our kings were kings.
And there's a shadow side of each of those.
(20:06):
And king energy is great for us to all practice stepping forward
into our power. We all deserve to take up space.
We all deserve to have somethingthat we like, you know, take
care of and like procure and claim.
But also. The the shadow side is the the
tyrant in the high chair, like telling everyone what to do,
(20:27):
like lying, yelling, acting likea baby, you know, and you see
this in politics all the time. You see it with any like look at
any company with hyper masculinity in it.
There's usually some guy that's you'll see a man and a loud
voice at a lot of this, you know, and it's like it's
(20:47):
overcompensating, right? So if a king is sitting in a
throne like he's, he's grounded,he doesn't need to cry.
And and if he's going to make a decision, he goes and asks this
whole, he's a meeting with this whole team, this whole table,
this whole board of advisors doesn't do it by himself.
And then he makes a decision, right?
And if he has the the the honor of having a queen beside him,
(21:12):
you better be sure she's part ofthat, right?
So learning how to dance and that that's his working with a
feminine so that he can hold hispower and be grounded.
It's not needing to have the answer bulldoze or or tell
anyone what to do any of those things.
You know, the other thing I always, I always think about
whenever I see the Dude Nation, and please tell me this is true,
(21:34):
that you have like an annual gathering where everybody, all
the men gather and watch The BigLebowski.
Not yet, not yet. I'm working on getting the
dudism movement, the dudists outthere.
We have some dudes, some certified dudes in our group.
It's it. I think that's a great idea.
I think we're going to have to have a once a year movie night
(21:56):
for sure, an outdoor screening. Let's do it.
Maybe you can help me organize it.
We'll do it on the border of NewYork in Massachusetts and we'll
buy all the dudes. You know, a lot of young
generations don't even know whatwe're talking about.
So there's that. And I was I was a little like, I
love look, having a great time is a big part of this is
(22:18):
overthinking. But I just didn't want to relate
us just to being stoners, but wewelcome everyone.
And I like there's so much beautiful philosophy and great
wisdom inside of that movie. And and it's and we yell, dude,
a lot because one of the things,again, I also teach men not to
take themselves too seriously iswe have a lot of fun.
(22:40):
And also, if we're not like we do have gatherings and I think
this is going to be like, yeah, you'll definitely you will be.
I'll make sure to have you a part of the council.
Make sure we read this by you before we launch it.
Oh, dude, it's all right. I love it.
Or you and I can go create it. I'm down.
(23:00):
Yeah, cool. All right, so.
So how does Dude Nation help menembody A healthier masculinity?
That's a great question. So The Dude Nation helps men
embody healthier masculinity by being and creating those safe
spaces for us to be able to practice embodying it.
So we have classes online so youcan dip your toes in, you can
(23:23):
come in and practice like the Dude Dojo or Dude school where
we're actually taking some of these tools that most of us men
deal with and we're sort of wrestling with it together and
it's facilitated. But we're also an and same thing
with our retreats that do deep dives in person, the Hudson
Valley Men's Circle, we're encircling in person, Dude Con,
(23:43):
our annual conference. We're encircling online and in
person. A lot of what we start
everything with is grounding with breath, with body, with
heart. So we do a lot of emotional
intelligence work. We pull from a lot of different
wisdoms and archetypes, and we also have developed our own
artificial intelligence, Aiden, which is our AI coaching
(24:07):
assistant that any of you can talk to.
So I'm going to drop a it's 84547 O dude and we're going to
put it in, but it's 84547 O dudeand he can't do this yet, but
you're going to be able to schedule a call for me with him.
But it's totally secure, private, something we've trained
to help men through personal professional times crisis.
(24:31):
It will, you know, can understand if you have a crisis
and it's not going to solve it for you.
It's going to tell you where to go.
It can recognize if you're a different gender or if you are
gender fluid and how to have a conversation.
But mostly it's like a private, safe, secure space that also ask
questions about the dude nation and to get real tools for what
(24:55):
you can do and so everything. So that's like a fun example of
something we just launched this week.
But all of our programming, networking and foundational work
is around emotional intelligence, so I believe from
the inside out. And then also doing some work
from the outside and some physical work as well so that we
can literally reprogram our bodies.
(25:17):
And then we, we have a lot of affiliate partners and friends
that we work with. So we're not the masters of
everything in a one stop shop for all men.
We actually a resource. And so we tune men into
different things and we're very nature oriented as well.
So I really have. I've learned a lot from the
from, I've learned a lot from nature and I really try to give
(25:39):
that away to men as often as possible.
It's a big part of my daily mental health practice and where
I learn so much wisdom. So I can tell in everything
you've shared about Dude Nation that community is a big part of
it. Why do you think community
matters so much for men's health?
Because it's a basic human need and we are bodies, we are
(26:02):
sentient beings. We have nervous systems that Co
regulate and they do that for a reason.
We're not designed to live in, you know, a bubble or isolation.
Otherwise they wouldn't put us in isolation for prison, which
we go insane in. So we literally need each other.
We're pack animals, we need community.
(26:23):
We were born in tribe. They say it takes a village for
a reason because it does. When you get married, you turn
around and look at the people because you're not supposed to
hold a marriage by yourself. You're supposed to hold it with
all of them. But we forget that and we're
like, oh, my marriage isn't working, you know, and you're
like, yo, you need to stop and say help and ask from here and
here and here and here. And you're not supposed to be
(26:46):
able to carry this by yourself Anything right?
Your business, Like I've run businesses.
I still, no, I don't run any of them on my own anymore, but I've
had up to five and I was like professional magician,
professional actor. I don't do that by myself
either. Professional musician, still do
that with my wife, some on my own, but I have accountability
(27:09):
of partnership. When you sit in a circle, magic
happens. It's the oldest technology.
My friend David Fulton calls it the OGAI, Ancient intelligence,
the technology of a circle. It handles so much.
I used to do so much specific programming for men.
We're going to do this and this and this and this and this.
(27:30):
And when I got out of the way, Iwas like, Oh my God, it's so
much more powerful when I'm out of the way.
Same thing in a band. When I create music and then I
take it to someone else, I'm like, no, it's got to be like
this. Like, that's cool.
But when I let them add to it, I'm like, whoa, the less
attached I become. It becomes bigger than me.
And then suddenly I'm just like,it's closest thing I can relate
(27:50):
to feeling healed. Like yesterday, my partner was
not available for something thatI was going through.
And I was like, I had a moment of light.
She's not available. And then I was like, wait a
second, You just poured your heart out in the dude Dojo.
You just had all these men identify with you and you with
them, and you just had the most amazing hour and you got exactly
what you needed. Why are you still trying to make
(28:12):
someone else wrong? Like, dude, you're doing the
work and it's working. So just be grateful for above.
And then I was like, I celebratetoo.
I teach that as well. So yeah, that's it for me right
now. Is has there been a
transformation of a man that you've worked with that has like
surprised even you or or impacted you in a in a in a
(28:36):
different unique way? I really relate to being
empathic and intuitive. And I want to say a quick
disclaimer, I'm not unique in that we actually all have the,
we all are empathic and intuitive and we have the some
more than others more, some havebeen trained.
Some of our survival mechanisms have kept us from being more so,
(28:57):
but it's something like a musclethat we can all tune and become
stronger at. And my, my dear friend Daniel
Tuttle, the provocative intuitive, I meditate with him
every day. He's a friend, he's a mentor,
he's an energy healer. He reminds me he's he's been
hearing and able to communicate with other dimensions and people
who have passed on and, and people here in a an
(29:21):
intelligence, some people would call like psychic or
hyperintuitive. And he's like, no, you all have
this. So he really taught me to
believe in my own and I love that about him.
So I tell you that too, that we really can can take that on.
Sorry, ask me a question one more time.
Is there a transformation of a man that has surprised even you?
Yeah, thank you. Wow, that was long within when I
(29:44):
said all that, all that was to say that like not many people
surprised me. Like I just really see people's
potential. I feel like that's kind of my
job and I see the big it's what I want for someone.
But I think probably one of the biggest ones I saw that was
awesome was yeah, OK, yeah, Yeah, it's two that surprised
(30:04):
me. One was we had a men's circle
and there was, you know, men ages up to like 80 years old.
And right before we were about to start, it was like, you know,
pretty typical range of dudes. A 25 year old transgender man
walked in and he taught me so much just to be able to show up
(30:29):
in that room and told us how unsafe he feels in the world
right now and especially in our country, even in his own towns
and cities and at work. And how much how many fights he
has defending himself. And, and that he walked in this
group of men and he saw something possible for himself.
And he got seen and heard and taught us all something about
what it really is to be a man inthis world and what some of us
(30:53):
have to go through to be a man in this world based on what the
world thinks a man should be andlook like.
And I identified with that a lot, even as a, you know, born a
man, whether you identify or agree with this argument either
or not, like someone who feels so other than the world and
identifies as something that people think is not human or or
(31:17):
normal. I think really takes something
to be that I, I learned when my father was like, I was not born
gay. I wouldn't, I mean, I'm, I did
not choose to be gay. Like I would never want to be
gay. Like I tried not to be gay.
I went to therapy, tried not to be gay.
Like it's really, really hard. Trust me, it just happened.
You know, it's part of who we are.
And the other, you know, so thatwas really amazing to that.
(31:41):
That man taught us so much. And then the other one was a 63
year old veteran whose son had committed suicide.
And he was up here in New York visiting and he saw a poster for
men's retreat. But he's from South Carolina.
And he had been really closed off and in pain.
(32:01):
And he, he was like, he called me and he was like, I don't know
exactly why I'm calling you. I've never really done anything
like this, but I'm going to fly all the way up to New York for
your retreat and stay there. It's so weird.
So I don't know. He's like really going there.
And he just, he was silent most of the retreat.
(32:24):
And then at the end, he opened up.
He told us whole story of his son.
He had created the socks for him.
They're called Warren Pete's because his son, when he was a
baby, he used to call his feet Pete's.
So he has. It's dedicated to Warren Pete's,
his son. And I was just so moving that
(32:45):
this man, something made him feel safe here.
He was a veteran. He dealt with PTSD and trauma
and severe loneliness and isolation and suicidal ideation
and thought his life was over and his son who he lived for
died. Like, what else did he have to
live for? And still like, not sure.
Like day 2 of there were three day retreats.
(33:08):
Still not sure why I'm here, Youknow?
And then something cracked. And you know, when you see
what's possible and you're actually have other men hold
something for you, A it could belike almost traumatic because if
you've never actually had that experience, it's like really
letting go feels really scary. And then you live, you're like,
(33:31):
oh, that was amazing. I lived, Oh my God, I didn't die
right? And it was seeing that
transformation was and there's always some one of us that's
resistant. I've been that hyper resistant.
I have no idea why I'm going to this.
And then the at the end I'm like, Oh my God, that was the
best thing ever. Yeah, I've come to realize the
more resistant I into something,the better it's going to be.
(33:54):
So now I'm really excited. Oh, I really don't want to go to
this. Oh, good.
Like, oh, because if I'm just like, yeah, let's this'll be
fun. It'll be like it is.
It's just fun in light. But if I really am afraid to go
to something, I know it's going to be huge for me.
What's the biggest challenge that you see facing men today
that isn't getting talked about enough?
Well, the good news is I think alot of things are starting to be
(34:15):
talked about. That's I'm like racking my
brain. I've been sent a lot of articles
this week alone, like New York Times, Psychology Today, all
this stuff popping up. Well, it's not really being
talked about in cells. You know, I didn't even know
what that was till a year or twoago.
And come to find out, like how many young men have done that
(34:36):
suicide for men under 40, you know, under 50, like the men who
don't like have these huge families and huge jobs, yet I've
lost multiple friends to suicide.
And I know there's something there.
I can't put my finger on it. I can feel it.
I want to say something about sex.
I think it's talked about, but it's like, it just feels like
(34:57):
it's all about, like it's reallyblack and white spaces and
sexual abuse is probably one of the hardest things for us to
talk about. I mean, statistically, it takes
us 30 years to say anything. One in six men have
statistically reportedly been sexually abused.
That's the ones that say something.
(35:18):
So they think it's actually closer to one in four or five.
I myself realized this year thatsomething I thought was normal
was being sexually molested. I wrote myself off as not having
ever been through that but feeling as if I had.
And then I was telling my friendabout how like the umpire I was
(35:38):
a catcher in Little League. The umpire used to reach under
and like touch my junk to make sure I was wearing my cup, so to
speak. But even then as a kid, it felt
weird. And like I that happened
numerous times and I know it happened to me and much of SAP
and other people. And it only took me telling
adults like, now to be like, oh,oh, I just thought that was the
(35:58):
southern thing. Like, yeah, let me just check or
tell your kid. And like, even that, like didn't
feel right. And yet as a kid, I told myself,
like, dude, you're fine. Like, why are you just being
cool? It's interesting how what we can
make up about something. And, and I don't think, Oh, and
there's one other thing I want to say that I think is really
not being talked about, and thatis grief, but even more
(36:21):
specifically, miscarriage and how it affects men.
I've been through a lot of trauma through the miscarriage
that my wife had, we had and it,it is a trauma for men as well.
And I don't think a lot of men know that they're allowed to
deal with it. One, that and two, that that
that it really does affect them,us and in ways that we have yet
(36:45):
to understand fully because we're not talking about it.
And so I noticed when when I started talking about mine, how
many people were thanking me andhow many women were thanking me,
but women's men still weren't saying anything.
And my friends were like, Oh my God, I never mentioned mine.
That happened seven years ago ever to anyone.
Oh my God. Right.
So that's another thing. Yeah, when we first spoke you
(37:05):
would mention in cells then too.Do do you know what would?
What would you want to say to any man that identifies as an in
cell? A lot of things.
I don't know if there's anythingI can say it's going to make a
difference to you other than believe it or not I understand I
was not always fuckable. I really identify with being
(37:28):
alone and wanting to seek violence or self harm or harm of
others as a way of numbing out. And I'm here to show proof that
like there's actually a way to learn to love yourself and other
men will start to and and women will actually love the things
that you're most afraid of to talk about are the very things
that are going to have you startto be loved.
(37:49):
But when you're we're so I understand you need one
community and I just want to offer that there's ones that
don't have to be harmful to you and you deserve to live another
day and you can come check out the do nation anytime you can
dip your toes in. You don't have to ever talk,
ever be seen. You can just listen and allow
(38:14):
you know us to love you till youlearn to love yourself.
Yeah, even all all these, you know, extremist fringe groups,
whatever the label might be, they all do prove the power and
need for community. We I would just like to see a
healthier core reason for the gathering of a community.
Yeah, and I got it too. I mean, it's like, what can we
(38:37):
say? Because if, if you're being hit
already, I'm seeing this like I have to close my eyes in
commercials 'cause I'm noticing them that they're getting
brighter and flashier and colorful and I'm it's, it's
really over stimuling. Also, we have like a movie
screen TV, so we could get rid of it during the day, but it's
intense and it I'm noticing likeall that stuff we have actually
(38:58):
what they're proving was it postlike algorithmic stress.
There's like these like depressions that we're having
from algorithms, like working their ways into our brain like a
little worm, you know, and we were hooked in these things.
And it sort of takes more and more to we get desensitized,
right? And so we see it takes more and
(39:21):
more stuff to kind of wake us up.
And even watching the 100 foot wave, I'm a big surfer and
watching like, I'm just fascinated with why these people
have put themselves in this situation.
Like, I've been injured a lot. But these guys are like, you
know, it is like, hey, let me just jump off this Cliff and
hope I land this time. And, you know, part of it is one
(39:42):
of the guys right off Garrett McNamara is the first one to
surf this huge wave said I'm addicted to the rush.
You know, suddenly I couldn't get the rush anymore and so I
had to go for a bigger wave. So I get it if like this isn't
cutting it and why we're cuttingourselves.
And we just want to feel something that's not this pain.
(40:02):
And this pain, I'm sorry, is noteven yours.
Like you've been given this by programmers by.
By generational trauma, by a country that doesn't know how to
support you in communicating, bycell phone industry, by all this
stuff that is like, I think you're probably doing the best
with the way you have. You're like, hey, here's a
(40:22):
community that I actually identify with that I like talk
with. But if you know that there's
only a part of you getting served there and there's a whole
other part you've had to cut offto be there, that's usually a
sign that there's just consider that you could be in more than
one community and maybe and feelseen and heard.
And, and if you're looking for safe space or even if that
(40:44):
doesn't feel safe, you can always send me a message and I
will personally have a conversation with you.
It, it will take me 24 hours to get back to you.
I don't put automated messaging and things in my, my stuff yet
because I, I really want to makesure I see everything.
And I go back and sometimes I miss something and I'm like 6
months later. Oh my God, hey, I dropped the
(41:05):
ball. I see you like, are you still
open to talking to me? You know, have you moved on?
Like I'll, I'll be there. You send me another message if I
miss you. But I, you know, I have a link.
You can book a call with me and get on my calendar anytime and
if I'm not the right resource, like I can refer you to someone
who can be. And there's free resources you
(41:25):
don't have to pay. And I find investing a little
bit in yourself has you start tobuild worth very quickly.
But I don't believe anyone should have to pay for community
and we all need it and deserve it.
And any conversation with me is private, confidential and free.
(41:46):
How has what it means to be a man evolved for you if it has?
Well, I know I can be a real manand be sensitive now.
I know I can be a real man and not be rich.
I know I can be a real man and really in touch with my feminine
side. I know I can be a real man and
be a really sexy dancer and movemy hips and my chest and, like,
(42:10):
make intent to eye contact with people.
I know I can be a real man and be really emotional and cry in
public. Yeah, my dad cried all the time
is so embarrassing. And now I'm like, I don't care.
I hope someone sees me crying. Maybe it'll give them
permission. My friend Mark Gwai, he leads
(42:31):
some beautiful father work and meditation.
He's a coach and one of the first times we met, he asked if
I wanted at the end of the time,he's like, would you be open to
do some eye gazing? And like, even for me, it was
the actor. I've done that.
I have not do that on retreats. I'm like, I know you, That's
(42:52):
weird. And that was so beautiful.
And then I had this moment, likeI saw this.
I can hear someone walking by and I was like, oh sweet, I hope
they're looking at us right now.I was staring into each other's
eyes and like this man and I both have our own families and
like, and I love this dude and he's going to be there for me
(43:13):
when my mom dies and I'm going to be there for him when his mom
dies. And I think it's one of because
he was so willing to let me see him and be so vulnerable.
And I just the other thing is I learned also this from Preston a
lot and I now exemplify this I think pretty well is like you
don't have to have your shit together to be a real man or to
be a great leader. Like he would always tell one on
(43:34):
himself. Like I struggle on my
relationships, all of them sometimes and with myself.
But being willing to be open andreal and honest is one of the
sexiest things. Like women just want
authenticity and someone who like deals with themself.
And part of that is it's not then listen, I know this isn't
all about men and women and gay or straight, but this is like
(43:56):
the feminine needs a solid space.
And it is not appropriate to putall of that masculine energy
into a feminine space. We need each other.
We need places to practice and community that is not just one
person. Like they can't, it's not
appropriate for your partner to hold all this same thing.
I'll tell the women like get a women's circle, get a group of
(44:16):
people to support you because it's not appropriate for your
husband or your partner to hold all of that either.
So it's like, you know, I reallywant to encourage you to put the
oxygen mask on yourself first ina fine community if you're out
there, even if it's just like, hey, I listen to the real men
feel show every day. And this is my, this is
community for me. Hey, this is a great place to
start. If you're identifying with
(44:38):
something that feels like maybe there's something here like
that's a good safe go where it'swarm first.
You don't have to like go into some like alpha intense boot
camp if it's not comfortable, right?
Like start with where it's a warm because you who you are is
actually one of the most interesting things in the world.
And the more you get to embrace that and find places that will
(45:00):
listen for you and hold space for you and hold you accountable
for that, I think that's where it's at.
What is your ultimate vision forDude Nation?
That all men everywhere see us, experiences us as a safe harbor.
(45:21):
That we are known in the world as a safe harbor for men, a
place that will of community andof resource.
That we become really a resourcefor the world mostly.
That we continue to fulfill our mission of developing emotional
intelligence or love, resilience, partnership,
(45:45):
community and brotherhood, and healthy ground and masculinity
in the world. And that we hold each other
accountable to do that. And may we be one of the many
beacons of light that do that because as many men are in the
world, there could be many different organizations.
We are one of them. There's this great quote.
We'll be getting one of my favorite songs.
(46:05):
He's like, ladies and gentlemen,there have been many songs
written in the world. This is one of them and it is.
And if it speaks to you, great. And that's why I even have like
Aiden, our our dude bot who's Australia too.
He's really fun to talk to. He like it's sort of decided
(46:25):
that on its own based on the research.
And I was like, well, cool, OK, and Aussie, it's a 24 hour
resource. So if you ever have any
questions, like, you know, come see us.
But I I think I answered the question.
What's one thing you wish more men knew?
That they're allowed to say no and stand up for themselves, but
(46:46):
they don't have to put up with being talked down to by their
partners just because they're men.
They don't have to be quiet justbecause they're men.
They're allowed to be loud and angry.
It's not one thing, but it's like your voice that matters.
And if your needs aren't being met or you feel needy, like
(47:09):
consider that your needs are being met and and that maybe
there's some other places where you could also get them met.
Like maybe there's other you're not alone.
And there are a lot of safe spaces here for you that can
look however you want and you can kind of take what you need
being you get to say what you need and being a man.
(47:31):
Ben, what's the best way for people to find out everything
that you and Dude Nation are up to?
Call Aiden really 84547 O dude, because you can ask any question
in the world and call it 24 hours a day from anywhere in the
world. Or go to thedudenation.com and
everything's there, including a link to book a call with me to
(47:53):
get on our newsletter, to get free resources, to get
connected, to hear real testimonials from men in our
organization and poke around andsee what a fun safe space might
be like. It's a pretty simple site.
We're not here to sell you a bunch of stuff.
And if you join our community, we send an e-mail out once a
week, usually with some really useful tools.
(48:15):
Each month is a different theme for us based on what men are
actually dealing with and what the world is dealing with.
So we're doing a lot of great work with each other and in the
organization, asking questions, encouraging, challenging men to,
to, you know, really work on their mental health and, and you
know, like the good night bro. There was a good night bro
(48:36):
movement where guys were just calling each other saying good
night bro. And it was like slowing suicide
down for, you know, a week because we started to, to think
about each other and communicateit.
So it's really simple things of just reaching out.
Ben, I really appreciate everything you're doing.
That's the best way to get some it up.
(48:58):
I I love thing all, all dude, con dude, Dojo dude, everything
I'm in and I'm really glad to find out that we're not that far
away from each other and we maybe we can do some actually in
human contact things in the future.
I would love to give you a hug, Andy Grant.
For real? Yeah.
(49:19):
And. Well, thanks, dude.
You really made an impact on my life.
Oh, and received like I really receive your acknowledgement and
know that that it I really feel the same way whether people are
listening or not. What you're up to in the world
is really beautiful. And you're one of the first
shows I started following when Igot into like I'm gonna follow
(49:42):
other men and feel. And you know, I was like this
guy. He's, you know, like, thank you,
Andy. It really spoke to me.
I'm one of those people who needed to feel validated as a
man who feels and guess what we all do.
And I heard you like I heard a call and I'm clear that dude con
is going to be in person, maybe hybrid so people can TuneIn
(50:04):
other where, but we're going to have the real men feel show or
Andy Grant on stage there. That's that feels really good to
me. And so I hope that that's
something you'd be interested inand we'll definitely follow up.
And I'd love to have you on my show.
Dude, you're getting well. We're talking about, you know,
what are some things we can actually do?
How you do take care of yourselfas a, you know, today in the
(50:26):
world, balancing what you do andhow different leaders have
turned pain and a purpose. And I would love to just stay
connected with you. And I'm really grateful for
everyone who listens to this show, whether it's your first
time or you've been listening for a long time.
If there's anything in here thatmoved you, that touched you,
that inspired you, tell Andy, tell me.
(50:47):
And more importantly, like shareit with someone in your life
because holding on to it is selfish.
You want to give it away and be like, dude, look what I learned
because then they can help hold you accountable.
And we need each other so that friends who you're like, I don't
want to call him like as much aswhen you pick up the phone and
(51:08):
you ask someone else how they'redoing or just period, you can
just listen. It's an opportunity for someone
else to be of service to you too.
So even asking for help is one of the greatest gifts that we
can give anyone in our life. And I just support and I leave
our listeners with that and and that I'm very grateful to be on
your show. Thanks for joining us everyone.
Please visit realmanfield.org for the blog post for this
(51:28):
episode, which held all the various links and resources to
discuss wherever you're discovering real and feel.
Please subscribe, follow, like, share this episode with
somebody, post a review or a comment, and until next time, be
good to yourself.
But when you carry all of it, you rob someone else the
opportunity to be of service, you push other people away, you
create yourself in a vacuum thatI can do it, I can do it.
And you train other people to stop offering help.
And then you feel like totally aload and defeated, like you have
no help. And so I think it's sort of the
self fulfilling prophecy that's really ingrained in US.
(00:20):
I found myself in that position many times.
Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel.
This is your host, author, coachand healer, Andy Grant.
Please visit theandygrant.com tolearn more about me.
Riemann Feel has conversations that most men are not having,
but that all men and the women who love them can benefit from.
My guest today is Ben Curtis. Ben is an award-winning actor,
musician, speaker and coach driven by a passion for guiding
(00:42):
men toward thriving in all aspects of life.
He's the visionary Co founder and CEO of Dude Nation, the
global startup shaping the future of men's Wellness.
Today, Ben and I talk about growing up as sensitive men and
explore multiple myths of masculinity.
He shares what he sees as some of the biggest challenges facing
men today and what he wishes more men knew.
(01:02):
Let's do it. Hello Ben, and welcome to Real
Men Feel. Hello, Andy, it's a pleasure to
be here. Good, I hope.
I hope you feel that way at the end.
I hope so. If it's any league, like our
conversation before and any of your episodes I've listened to,
I think I'm going to feel even better just being here in a safe
(01:25):
space, right? This is what it's all about,
like making safe spaces for men to feel and be real.
And I really appreciate you and who you are and and your
audience listening. I appreciate that.
So you are the Co founder of theDude Nation.
So let's start there. What inspired you to create The
Dude Nation? Well, that's a great question.
(01:48):
I felt like something I had to do.
You know the saying if you see something, say something.
It was like I saw something and no one else was saying it, and
it was to the point where, oh, I'm the one who's supposed to
lead that something. But to rewind, I think what
really did it is one actually had a really awesome father, A
(02:09):
lot of emotional intelligence, encouraged me to feel my
feelings. Was the first one in his family
to go to therapy. Both my parents carried
generations of trauma and depression, a lot of suicide on
both sides, a lot of mental health issues.
Both of them were the first onesto interrupt that and growing up
in the South when they did in the early 1900s, It's I'm a
(02:32):
miracle, you know, and I, I think it's AI feel so blessed to
have grown up in a home that wasso open minded in a place that
was not. My parents also travelled the
world and they taught me to do that.
So I started seeing a perspective other than my
immediate environment and I saw the hearts of other people.
And I've always been a really sensitive kid, really sensitive
boy and wasn't always welcome inschool, But my mom nurtured
(02:56):
that. She saw it, she spoke to it.
And even a woman some point in high school said, you know,
girls may not find the sexy right now, but if you keep this
up, eventually the right woman will respect you for this.
And I never forgot that. And it really did feel like
being sensitive felt like what we used to say in the 80s, a
handicap, like something in my way.
(03:17):
And it was like something that Ididn't that like made me
different from everyone else. And I slowly, thank God, I I
became a professional actor. I learned how to use it, but I
started to see how my sensitivity could be my
superpower. And it wasn't really till I got
sober, I put down drugs and alcohol.
(03:37):
When I really started developinga relationship with men and
leading men's work, that's when I saw I'd been a leader for a
long time. All the feelings I felt really
needed to be dealt with with other men.
I'd done them with women and, and that was great, but some of
the stuff needed to go deeper. And I, I started learning that
only men could hold that. I learned I didn't trust men,
(03:57):
especially men that looked like you, just anyone that presented
as powerful or what we call alpha.
And but I felt safe, oddly enough, with gay men.
And what I learned is that it took a lot to be gay when I grew
up. And my friends who had the
courage to come out and be themselves in that world, I was
(04:20):
like, whoa, they are. There's nothing but authenticity
coming out of that person. And then my father became one of
the first openly gay ministers in the South.
It was very controversial. And it was something that opened
my eyes to that. And I started to see him lead
and then he started a support group for men going through
sexual abuse and I saw him lead that.
(04:40):
And then I saw my dad end a relationship with my mom that
wasn't working and lead in a newlife there.
My parents get happier. And then kind of Fast forward to
I've I started getting in the Wellness world.
I got out of bartending and thenyoga and meditation and breath
work. And I've been teaching that
stuff for about 15 years. And all my clients started to be
(05:01):
men. And I realized that was my gift.
Oh, they trust me. And they're actually looking for
more than just like some yoga. Like, you know, there's clearly
they're asking for coaching or some therapy.
So I got certified as a coach. I looked into being a therapist.
And my therapist was even like, yeah, it seems like you really
like being more active and, you know, involved.
(05:21):
And I met this coach, now dear friend and mentor.
Preston smiles. And he was leading a coaching
group, like, fell in my lap or in my algorithms all over my
face in the middle of the pandemic.
And I was like, OK, fine, dude, I'm going to sign up for your
work. I've never paid you before, but
I did. And one of the greatest things
out of that is that Preston encouraged me to start my own
(05:44):
men's group, and I did. And so that was the lion's den.
It was called. My dad died while I started that
and that was the only thing I could show up for.
And those men carried me. And I realized I'd been leading
sober men's retreats for a decade.
But I thought, why is this only have to be for men who identify
as Alcoholics or addicts or, youknow, going to that maybe
(06:07):
extreme? Is there something for all of
us? And I didn't see a whole lot of
it. I saw stuff for like, our dads
saw stuff for kids. But I was like, where's stuff
for like us and these multi generations from like 20 to 60
or 70, like, you know, where's that?
Like how do we connect? We're all told we're so
different generationally. So it was just like a whisper.
(06:30):
And it started with the podcast.My friend was like, my best
friend was like, Ben, we got to talk.
I love your work, but the Lion'sDen is like one of the biggest
sex superstores in the world. So I think you should change
your name, as much as I love that you guys roar and all that.
And I was like, I feel you, man.I appreciate that.
That's great feedback. He's like Brandy 101, bro.
(06:51):
I'm just like, real talk. And I said that's why you're my
best friend. And I said, like, dude, you're
getting well once. And he's like, that's it.
Nobody else has that. You're the Dell, dude.
And I'm like, but I'm past Dell.He's like, yeah, but if you can
tell your story of what happenedand how you've reclaimed that
work now, I realized dude was a source of shame for me.
That word, I wanted nothing to do with it and long story, long
(07:17):
and to the point like that really just was what there was
to do and to have a conversationabout it.
So if I was uncomfortable with Icould reclaim it and started as
a conversation piece then becamethe whole organization.
And so dude was kind of there all along.
I founded this 10 years ago, butI did.
It's when I met Adam Lamb that it kind of all synced together
and he helped to get to the nextlevel.
(07:39):
And now we've got leaders of allkinds and growing organization,
and we really look to be an umbrella for for healthy
masculinity for all generations.Very cool.
I want to back up to, to kind ofgrowing up sensitive 'cause my
experience is very similar to that.
I, I was a emotional crying kid and as an adult I realized I, I
(08:03):
was empathic and that other people's emotion coming through
me and I would be bawling and like thinking there's no reason
for me to be crying. Why?
What is this? And I just thought I was great
and even my I've been married, oh goodness, 26 years, 27 years
now. I've been married a long time
and my wife was warned that whenshe before she met me that anti
(08:26):
sensitive and. I can say my wife thought I was
gay. She was like, you're so, you're
so there. Like why does why is does a man
being called sensitive still? Well, to me it still feels like
a put down, like it's an insult.It is you, you said a handicap.
So do you still feel it that way?
If like if I, if I, oh, there's Ben, Hey, you're a really
(08:48):
sensitive guy. Does that?
Does that, does that feel supportive?
Or is it feeling now? I'd be like thank you man, yes I
am. Come off world.
Look at this dude. In fact, I mean, here's me,
Andy. I was wearing my like, Dude
Nation shirt. I was on the street corner of
Rhinebeck where I live, my dad, and it was the anniversary of
his death. I called my best friend Matt
(09:11):
Johnson. He lives across the street.
He's been with me through this work.
And like I said, can we go on a walk?
And he was like, what's going on?
I was like angry and confused and like, I didn't know what was
happening. And then all of a sudden I was
like, right, which is sometimes before grief, I don't know
what's going on in my body and my brain's just like, what if I
don't do? And I just like fell bawling in
(09:31):
his arms. And I was like, I feel weird up
in the middle of town. He was like, he just started
laughing. He was like, do you know how odd
bread this is? You're in a pink dude shirt
crying in the arms of a large man in the middle of your town.
He said, thank you, Ben Curtis, I love you so much.
And so that's kind of me. I really learned to own it.
(09:52):
And I've had enough men thank mefor being that.
Like, I don't feel like I have achoice, but I've learned to own
it. And I think that's the thing.
Anything that feels like we're aprisoner of, it's always
ourselves. And it's how we create it and
what our programming is what we're told.
And like, we finally we get older.
We're like, oh, I don't have to listen to anybody.
Oh, my God, what have I been doing?
(10:13):
Why did I give so much? You know, hopefully we make it
this long, right? There's a lot of I've had many
times when I didn't think I would and I I didn't know how to
love myself for a long time and I did a lot of self sabotaging.
And even though I liked the sensitive side, it wasn't
working fully in life. It was like, you know, I was a
(10:35):
really successful actor and thenI'd have nothing or I was a
really passionate lover and thenI'd have be alone and I was a
really great musician. And then I'd be like suicidally
depressed while I'm like touringthe country and I'm like, what's
going on, you know, And so I realized I had to slow down and
thank God, like I got arrested in some big.
(10:56):
So there's some interventions along the way.
I called them higher power moments.
The universe is like, Nope, OK, not too far.
That has had me start to look atlearning how to re parent and
love myself. Even though I had like these
great parents. What I did learn is we didn't
have emotional boundaries growing up.
Boundaries was not in my vocabulary till my 30s till not
(11:20):
even in like it took me going toal Anon and doing this
codependent work to learn that you know, I was angry at someone
else in my life for drinking andit turned out I was the one
without the boundaries. Like I was the one enabling all
this toxic behavior. I was the one choosing to be in
relationships over and over again with, you know, and, and,
and beating myself up for it. So anyway, there's a lot there
(11:42):
that's not really what you asked, but I'm passionate about
this topic. I love you, man.
I'm so glad there's a sensitive dude like you out there.
And that's why I used to put, like, helping, you know,
sensitive men. That was it, like 2.
I served. And I don't know when to go a
little further than that becauseI realized not many men were
(12:02):
able to identify openly as sensitive.
And it was just like, niching myself down to like, OK, Eddie,
bed out there. Hello.
It's OK. And I saw your show, and it was
really moving that someone made a whole show about it.
And I was like that. That's why I need to keep
speaking up that guy. So growing up in the emotionally
(12:26):
open house and high emotional intelligence and you could be
yourself, when did you realize that wasn't the norm for all
your other male friends? Pretty early because my dad was
a Christian minister and he was like, yeah, go to synagogue.
And my Jewish friends are like, what are you doing here?
And I'm like, this place is awesome.
(12:46):
They're like, OK, do you really want to be in Hebrew school?
It's like prison for us. But you're having a good time.
Great. I loved it.
I don't. My dad was such a trailblazer
and pioneer and civil rights leader, and my mom worked with
refugees and my parents have always worked with people who
didn't look like them or come from the same place.
So it's just like, Oh yeah, thisis.
(13:10):
I just felt like it was there the whole time.
I felt othered from the fact that my best friend was black.
I was so different for that alone in the South and that I
was really proud of that and would like fight for him and
like that that still was an issue.
Then it just I was so angry as akid.
That was like, I just I knew it was different.
(13:33):
I didn't care and it was it was pretty clear, you know, I think
it's tough to survive. Like I was like, OK, I can feel
that I've got something these kids don't, but also they can
kick everyone's ass and I can't yet.
Like they, there's something they're getting.
But like, I felt like I just hadto make it through high school
and then I was going to like at least get to the next part
(13:54):
'cause I could see a lot of superficiality.
I, I went to a school that was kind of breeding.
We'll see. My school is really great, very
religious, a lot of money pouredin there, a lot of privilege.
Not everyone used that power andprivilege as well as other
people and a lot of misuse of power and sort of what I felt
was enabling that behavior. Not all of those students got
(14:18):
reprimanded or went under the radar for it or could get away
with it. And maybe leading world
companies now. So that was a little like, I
don't know if I agree with everyone here.
And it kind of grew me as an individual, right?
So it allowed me to be OK with being different and have, oh,
here's the other thing. I think this will answer your
(14:39):
question. I just heard it.
Thanks, Dad. He was such.
He was so bullied as a kid. And one of the greatest tools he
taught me was that bullies, like, hurt people, hurt people,
you know, he said. Bullies are.
I remember he sat me down. He's like Benjamin.
Bullies are some of the most scared, frightened little boys
(14:59):
you'll ever meet. And they act all beg and tough
and they're so scared. And that helped me so much
'cause my dad was not a fighter,I was definitely more scrappy
than him. But even like, I wanted to kick
some ass, but I was afraid of death or dying or hurting
someone or hurting myself. So I managed to stay out of it.
But I was like, I, I was right there.
And bullies scared me and I but I finally learned some
(15:21):
compassion and I think that's how I I navigated that.
Yeah, it's funny, I I'm only realizing this now.
I think my biggest fear of bullies was becoming so upset
that I would cry. Like if you would just start
beating me up, Oh good, that that's the easy stuff.
But if I'm so scared and tense and overwhelmed that I start
crying, that was far worse than being bloodied.
(15:43):
Interesting. That whatever, no.
No, that's important, Andy, thatyou're saying that.
And because there's someone who's who's listening, that's
identifying and I'm actually seeing my anger even more like
I, I, I'm very clear. I was afraid of my anger as a
child. It did not feel safe.
And I was afraid I would really,really hurt someone because I'd
so much pent up anger. And you said something at the
(16:05):
beginning of the show. I don't think that anger is
mine. I think a lot of it was my
parents. I think it was a lot of it.
You know, them at each other andat their families and the
generations. And, you know, that's why I say
like, I hope it's amazing we make it this far.
You know, we're just these little bings like absorbing all
this stuff and what do we do with it, right?
(16:26):
And so if we can create safer spaces for us, like that's
that's why. Yeah, we're here today,
hopefully. All right, so jumping towards
today, what are some of the biggest myths about masculinity
that you still see men carrying?One, you said it, that we have
to carry it and that we have to carry it alone.
(16:47):
I still notice myself doing this.
I think it's deeply programmed. But like that we're supposed to
be the ones to carry it all. And in that it's, it's still
training myself to ask for help to not carry it alone.
Like it's OK to go create something and make something of
yourself and practice carrying some of the load.
(17:07):
But when you carry all of it, you rob someone else the
opportunity to be of service. You push other people away, you
create yourself in a vacuum thatI can do it, I can do it.
And you train other people to stop offering help and and then
you feel like totally a load anddefeated, like you have no help.
And so I think it's sort of the self fulfilling prophecy that's
(17:29):
really ingrained in US. I found myself in that position
many times, even like leading myfirst retreat with a business
partner with other people, like still trying to do stuff on my
own. And I'm like, I'm going to make
the fire. And thank God because I, I said
at the beginning, hold me accountable for for delegating,
for giving away leadership, for not like robbing people of that.
So friend tapped me on the shoulder.
(17:50):
He goes, Ben. Yeah.
What are you doing? I'm making the fire.
Yeah, I can see that. Why are you doing that?
Because I really want to make the fire.
He's like, yeah, I can see that.Don't you think that'd be great
for someone else to do? And I was like, oh, thank you,
man. Yeah.
He's like, I'll go. He goes, no, no, no, you won't.
(18:11):
I'll go delegate it. You go do what you need to do
next, right. And says that kind of stuff.
Right. I don't remember what the
question was anymore, but something about present day.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess myths.
Oh, that we that, that our bank account equals our self worth.
(18:35):
I don't know if it's like a myth, but like, I think it's
something a lot of us deal with.It's not real but like it shows
up everywhere. That's making I'm definitely
this flashback to the movie WallStreet where Martin Sheen is in
is in talking to. Is it Charlie Sheen?
Yeah, Martin's you know, he's talking to his his son and there
there's father and son in the movie too and he's in the
elevator. Just he that's perfect acting of
(18:57):
he's all calm and like, well, son, I don't know this.
And then he just snaps it. And I don't judge a man by the
size of his wallet and he just. But I that's the one thing I
remember from that movie that that that.
Well, exclaimed that, but it's any time talking someone talks
about money and worthiness and that's how you're measured.
I always think of that. Yeah, Also that you have to be
strong, look a certain way to bemasculine, That you have to
(19:22):
always be the one to lead all the time.
That we're not good listeners, That masculinity is dangerous.
I think that's a myth that masculinity is toxic, is
made-up, that masculinity is violent, is made-up.
I think those are the big ones right now.
It's, it's like uninitiated masculinity, unconscious
masculinity, ungrounded masculinity, immature
(19:45):
masculinity, right? Just those who haven't been
cared for, right? And it's a really great example
of one of the four masculine archetypes is the king.
And a lot of us know that king energy.
And you see all those brands on Instagram that's like rising
king kings of our kings were kings.
And there's a shadow side of each of those.
(20:06):
And king energy is great for us to all practice stepping forward
into our power. We all deserve to take up space.
We all deserve to have somethingthat we like, you know, take
care of and like procure and claim.
But also. The the shadow side is the the
tyrant in the high chair, like telling everyone what to do,
(20:27):
like lying, yelling, acting likea baby, you know, and you see
this in politics all the time. You see it with any like look at
any company with hyper masculinity in it.
There's usually some guy that's you'll see a man and a loud
voice at a lot of this, you know, and it's like it's
(20:47):
overcompensating, right? So if a king is sitting in a
throne like he's, he's grounded,he doesn't need to cry.
And and if he's going to make a decision, he goes and asks this
whole, he's a meeting with this whole team, this whole table,
this whole board of advisors doesn't do it by himself.
And then he makes a decision, right?
And if he has the the the honor of having a queen beside him,
(21:12):
you better be sure she's part ofthat, right?
So learning how to dance and that that's his working with a
feminine so that he can hold hispower and be grounded.
It's not needing to have the answer bulldoze or or tell
anyone what to do any of those things.
You know, the other thing I always, I always think about
whenever I see the Dude Nation, and please tell me this is true,
(21:34):
that you have like an annual gathering where everybody, all
the men gather and watch The BigLebowski.
Not yet, not yet. I'm working on getting the
dudism movement, the dudists outthere.
We have some dudes, some certified dudes in our group.
It's it. I think that's a great idea.
I think we're going to have to have a once a year movie night
(21:56):
for sure, an outdoor screening. Let's do it.
Maybe you can help me organize it.
We'll do it on the border of NewYork in Massachusetts and we'll
buy all the dudes. You know, a lot of young
generations don't even know whatwe're talking about.
So there's that. And I was I was a little like, I
love look, having a great time is a big part of this is
(22:18):
overthinking. But I just didn't want to relate
us just to being stoners, but wewelcome everyone.
And I like there's so much beautiful philosophy and great
wisdom inside of that movie. And and it's and we yell, dude,
a lot because one of the things,again, I also teach men not to
take themselves too seriously iswe have a lot of fun.
(22:40):
And also, if we're not like we do have gatherings and I think
this is going to be like, yeah, you'll definitely you will be.
I'll make sure to have you a part of the council.
Make sure we read this by you before we launch it.
Oh, dude, it's all right. I love it.
Or you and I can go create it. I'm down.
(23:00):
Yeah, cool. All right, so.
So how does Dude Nation help menembody A healthier masculinity?
That's a great question. So The Dude Nation helps men
embody healthier masculinity by being and creating those safe
spaces for us to be able to practice embodying it.
So we have classes online so youcan dip your toes in, you can
(23:23):
come in and practice like the Dude Dojo or Dude school where
we're actually taking some of these tools that most of us men
deal with and we're sort of wrestling with it together and
it's facilitated. But we're also an and same thing
with our retreats that do deep dives in person, the Hudson
Valley Men's Circle, we're encircling in person, Dude Con,
(23:43):
our annual conference. We're encircling online and in
person. A lot of what we start
everything with is grounding with breath, with body, with
heart. So we do a lot of emotional
intelligence work. We pull from a lot of different
wisdoms and archetypes, and we also have developed our own
artificial intelligence, Aiden, which is our AI coaching
(24:07):
assistant that any of you can talk to.
So I'm going to drop a it's 84547 O dude and we're going to
put it in, but it's 84547 O dudeand he can't do this yet, but
you're going to be able to schedule a call for me with him.
But it's totally secure, private, something we've trained
to help men through personal professional times crisis.
(24:31):
It will, you know, can understand if you have a crisis
and it's not going to solve it for you.
It's going to tell you where to go.
It can recognize if you're a different gender or if you are
gender fluid and how to have a conversation.
But mostly it's like a private, safe, secure space that also ask
questions about the dude nation and to get real tools for what
(24:55):
you can do and so everything. So that's like a fun example of
something we just launched this week.
But all of our programming, networking and foundational work
is around emotional intelligence, so I believe from
the inside out. And then also doing some work
from the outside and some physical work as well so that we
can literally reprogram our bodies.
(25:17):
And then we, we have a lot of affiliate partners and friends
that we work with. So we're not the masters of
everything in a one stop shop for all men.
We actually a resource. And so we tune men into
different things and we're very nature oriented as well.
So I really have. I've learned a lot from the
from, I've learned a lot from nature and I really try to give
(25:39):
that away to men as often as possible.
It's a big part of my daily mental health practice and where
I learn so much wisdom. So I can tell in everything
you've shared about Dude Nation that community is a big part of
it. Why do you think community
matters so much for men's health?
Because it's a basic human need and we are bodies, we are
(26:02):
sentient beings. We have nervous systems that Co
regulate and they do that for a reason.
We're not designed to live in, you know, a bubble or isolation.
Otherwise they wouldn't put us in isolation for prison, which
we go insane in. So we literally need each other.
We're pack animals, we need community.
(26:23):
We were born in tribe. They say it takes a village for
a reason because it does. When you get married, you turn
around and look at the people because you're not supposed to
hold a marriage by yourself. You're supposed to hold it with
all of them. But we forget that and we're
like, oh, my marriage isn't working, you know, and you're
like, yo, you need to stop and say help and ask from here and
here and here and here. And you're not supposed to be
(26:46):
able to carry this by yourself Anything right?
Your business, Like I've run businesses.
I still, no, I don't run any of them on my own anymore, but I've
had up to five and I was like professional magician,
professional actor. I don't do that by myself
either. Professional musician, still do
that with my wife, some on my own, but I have accountability
(27:09):
of partnership. When you sit in a circle, magic
happens. It's the oldest technology.
My friend David Fulton calls it the OGAI, Ancient intelligence,
the technology of a circle. It handles so much.
I used to do so much specific programming for men.
We're going to do this and this and this and this and this.
(27:30):
And when I got out of the way, Iwas like, Oh my God, it's so
much more powerful when I'm out of the way.
Same thing in a band. When I create music and then I
take it to someone else, I'm like, no, it's got to be like
this. Like, that's cool.
But when I let them add to it, I'm like, whoa, the less
attached I become. It becomes bigger than me.
And then suddenly I'm just like,it's closest thing I can relate
(27:50):
to feeling healed. Like yesterday, my partner was
not available for something thatI was going through.
And I was like, I had a moment of light.
She's not available. And then I was like, wait a
second, You just poured your heart out in the dude Dojo.
You just had all these men identify with you and you with
them, and you just had the most amazing hour and you got exactly
what you needed. Why are you still trying to make
(28:12):
someone else wrong? Like, dude, you're doing the
work and it's working. So just be grateful for above.
And then I was like, I celebratetoo.
I teach that as well. So yeah, that's it for me right
now. Is has there been a
transformation of a man that you've worked with that has like
surprised even you or or impacted you in a in a in a
(28:36):
different unique way? I really relate to being
empathic and intuitive. And I want to say a quick
disclaimer, I'm not unique in that we actually all have the,
we all are empathic and intuitive and we have the some
more than others more, some havebeen trained.
Some of our survival mechanisms have kept us from being more so,
(28:57):
but it's something like a musclethat we can all tune and become
stronger at. And my, my dear friend Daniel
Tuttle, the provocative intuitive, I meditate with him
every day. He's a friend, he's a mentor,
he's an energy healer. He reminds me he's he's been
hearing and able to communicate with other dimensions and people
who have passed on and, and people here in a an
(29:21):
intelligence, some people would call like psychic or
hyperintuitive. And he's like, no, you all have
this. So he really taught me to
believe in my own and I love that about him.
So I tell you that too, that we really can can take that on.
Sorry, ask me a question one more time.
Is there a transformation of a man that has surprised even you?
Yeah, thank you. Wow, that was long within when I
(29:44):
said all that, all that was to say that like not many people
surprised me. Like I just really see people's
potential. I feel like that's kind of my
job and I see the big it's what I want for someone.
But I think probably one of the biggest ones I saw that was
awesome was yeah, OK, yeah, Yeah, it's two that surprised
(30:04):
me. One was we had a men's circle
and there was, you know, men ages up to like 80 years old.
And right before we were about to start, it was like, you know,
pretty typical range of dudes. A 25 year old transgender man
walked in and he taught me so much just to be able to show up
(30:29):
in that room and told us how unsafe he feels in the world
right now and especially in our country, even in his own towns
and cities and at work. And how much how many fights he
has defending himself. And, and that he walked in this
group of men and he saw something possible for himself.
And he got seen and heard and taught us all something about
what it really is to be a man inthis world and what some of us
(30:53):
have to go through to be a man in this world based on what the
world thinks a man should be andlook like.
And I identified with that a lot, even as a, you know, born a
man, whether you identify or agree with this argument either
or not, like someone who feels so other than the world and
identifies as something that people think is not human or or
(31:17):
normal. I think really takes something
to be that I, I learned when my father was like, I was not born
gay. I wouldn't, I mean, I'm, I did
not choose to be gay. Like I would never want to be
gay. Like I tried not to be gay.
I went to therapy, tried not to be gay.
Like it's really, really hard. Trust me, it just happened.
You know, it's part of who we are.
And the other, you know, so thatwas really amazing to that.
(31:41):
That man taught us so much. And then the other one was a 63
year old veteran whose son had committed suicide.
And he was up here in New York visiting and he saw a poster for
men's retreat. But he's from South Carolina.
And he had been really closed off and in pain.
(32:01):
And he, he was like, he called me and he was like, I don't know
exactly why I'm calling you. I've never really done anything
like this, but I'm going to fly all the way up to New York for
your retreat and stay there. It's so weird.
So I don't know. He's like really going there.
And he just, he was silent most of the retreat.
(32:24):
And then at the end, he opened up.
He told us whole story of his son.
He had created the socks for him.
They're called Warren Pete's because his son, when he was a
baby, he used to call his feet Pete's.
So he has. It's dedicated to Warren Pete's,
his son. And I was just so moving that
(32:45):
this man, something made him feel safe here.
He was a veteran. He dealt with PTSD and trauma
and severe loneliness and isolation and suicidal ideation
and thought his life was over and his son who he lived for
died. Like, what else did he have to
live for? And still like, not sure.
Like day 2 of there were three day retreats.
(33:08):
Still not sure why I'm here, Youknow?
And then something cracked. And you know, when you see
what's possible and you're actually have other men hold
something for you, A it could belike almost traumatic because if
you've never actually had that experience, it's like really
letting go feels really scary. And then you live, you're like,
(33:31):
oh, that was amazing. I lived, Oh my God, I didn't die
right? And it was seeing that
transformation was and there's always some one of us that's
resistant. I've been that hyper resistant.
I have no idea why I'm going to this.
And then the at the end I'm like, Oh my God, that was the
best thing ever. Yeah, I've come to realize the
more resistant I into something,the better it's going to be.
(33:54):
So now I'm really excited. Oh, I really don't want to go to
this. Oh, good.
Like, oh, because if I'm just like, yeah, let's this'll be
fun. It'll be like it is.
It's just fun in light. But if I really am afraid to go
to something, I know it's going to be huge for me.
What's the biggest challenge that you see facing men today
that isn't getting talked about enough?
Well, the good news is I think alot of things are starting to be
(34:15):
talked about. That's I'm like racking my
brain. I've been sent a lot of articles
this week alone, like New York Times, Psychology Today, all
this stuff popping up. Well, it's not really being
talked about in cells. You know, I didn't even know
what that was till a year or twoago.
And come to find out, like how many young men have done that
(34:36):
suicide for men under 40, you know, under 50, like the men who
don't like have these huge families and huge jobs, yet I've
lost multiple friends to suicide.
And I know there's something there.
I can't put my finger on it. I can feel it.
I want to say something about sex.
I think it's talked about, but it's like, it just feels like
(34:57):
it's all about, like it's reallyblack and white spaces and
sexual abuse is probably one of the hardest things for us to
talk about. I mean, statistically, it takes
us 30 years to say anything. One in six men have
statistically reportedly been sexually abused.
That's the ones that say something.
(35:18):
So they think it's actually closer to one in four or five.
I myself realized this year thatsomething I thought was normal
was being sexually molested. I wrote myself off as not having
ever been through that but feeling as if I had.
And then I was telling my friendabout how like the umpire I was
(35:38):
a catcher in Little League. The umpire used to reach under
and like touch my junk to make sure I was wearing my cup, so to
speak. But even then as a kid, it felt
weird. And like I that happened
numerous times and I know it happened to me and much of SAP
and other people. And it only took me telling
adults like, now to be like, oh,oh, I just thought that was the
(35:58):
southern thing. Like, yeah, let me just check or
tell your kid. And like, even that, like didn't
feel right. And yet as a kid, I told myself,
like, dude, you're fine. Like, why are you just being
cool? It's interesting how what we can
make up about something. And, and I don't think, Oh, and
there's one other thing I want to say that I think is really
not being talked about, and thatis grief, but even more
(36:21):
specifically, miscarriage and how it affects men.
I've been through a lot of trauma through the miscarriage
that my wife had, we had and it,it is a trauma for men as well.
And I don't think a lot of men know that they're allowed to
deal with it. One, that and two, that that
that it really does affect them,us and in ways that we have yet
(36:45):
to understand fully because we're not talking about it.
And so I noticed when when I started talking about mine, how
many people were thanking me andhow many women were thanking me,
but women's men still weren't saying anything.
And my friends were like, Oh my God, I never mentioned mine.
That happened seven years ago ever to anyone.
Oh my God. Right.
So that's another thing. Yeah, when we first spoke you
(37:05):
would mention in cells then too.Do do you know what would?
What would you want to say to any man that identifies as an in
cell? A lot of things.
I don't know if there's anythingI can say it's going to make a
difference to you other than believe it or not I understand I
was not always fuckable. I really identify with being
(37:28):
alone and wanting to seek violence or self harm or harm of
others as a way of numbing out. And I'm here to show proof that
like there's actually a way to learn to love yourself and other
men will start to and and women will actually love the things
that you're most afraid of to talk about are the very things
that are going to have you startto be loved.
(37:49):
But when you're we're so I understand you need one
community and I just want to offer that there's ones that
don't have to be harmful to you and you deserve to live another
day and you can come check out the do nation anytime you can
dip your toes in. You don't have to ever talk,
ever be seen. You can just listen and allow
(38:14):
you know us to love you till youlearn to love yourself.
Yeah, even all all these, you know, extremist fringe groups,
whatever the label might be, they all do prove the power and
need for community. We I would just like to see a
healthier core reason for the gathering of a community.
Yeah, and I got it too. I mean, it's like, what can we
(38:37):
say? Because if, if you're being hit
already, I'm seeing this like I have to close my eyes in
commercials 'cause I'm noticing them that they're getting
brighter and flashier and colorful and I'm it's, it's
really over stimuling. Also, we have like a movie
screen TV, so we could get rid of it during the day, but it's
intense and it I'm noticing likeall that stuff we have actually
(38:58):
what they're proving was it postlike algorithmic stress.
There's like these like depressions that we're having
from algorithms, like working their ways into our brain like a
little worm, you know, and we were hooked in these things.
And it sort of takes more and more to we get desensitized,
right? And so we see it takes more and
(39:21):
more stuff to kind of wake us up.
And even watching the 100 foot wave, I'm a big surfer and
watching like, I'm just fascinated with why these people
have put themselves in this situation.
Like, I've been injured a lot. But these guys are like, you
know, it is like, hey, let me just jump off this Cliff and
hope I land this time. And, you know, part of it is one
(39:42):
of the guys right off Garrett McNamara is the first one to
surf this huge wave said I'm addicted to the rush.
You know, suddenly I couldn't get the rush anymore and so I
had to go for a bigger wave. So I get it if like this isn't
cutting it and why we're cuttingourselves.
And we just want to feel something that's not this pain.
(40:02):
And this pain, I'm sorry, is noteven yours.
Like you've been given this by programmers by.
By generational trauma, by a country that doesn't know how to
support you in communicating, bycell phone industry, by all this
stuff that is like, I think you're probably doing the best
with the way you have. You're like, hey, here's a
(40:22):
community that I actually identify with that I like talk
with. But if you know that there's
only a part of you getting served there and there's a whole
other part you've had to cut offto be there, that's usually a
sign that there's just consider that you could be in more than
one community and maybe and feelseen and heard.
And, and if you're looking for safe space or even if that
(40:44):
doesn't feel safe, you can always send me a message and I
will personally have a conversation with you.
It, it will take me 24 hours to get back to you.
I don't put automated messaging and things in my, my stuff yet
because I, I really want to makesure I see everything.
And I go back and sometimes I miss something and I'm like 6
months later. Oh my God, hey, I dropped the
(41:05):
ball. I see you like, are you still
open to talking to me? You know, have you moved on?
Like I'll, I'll be there. You send me another message if I
miss you. But I, you know, I have a link.
You can book a call with me and get on my calendar anytime and
if I'm not the right resource, like I can refer you to someone
who can be. And there's free resources you
(41:25):
don't have to pay. And I find investing a little
bit in yourself has you start tobuild worth very quickly.
But I don't believe anyone should have to pay for community
and we all need it and deserve it.
And any conversation with me is private, confidential and free.
(41:46):
How has what it means to be a man evolved for you if it has?
Well, I know I can be a real manand be sensitive now.
I know I can be a real man and not be rich.
I know I can be a real man and really in touch with my feminine
side. I know I can be a real man and
be a really sexy dancer and movemy hips and my chest and, like,
(42:10):
make intent to eye contact with people.
I know I can be a real man and be really emotional and cry in
public. Yeah, my dad cried all the time
is so embarrassing. And now I'm like, I don't care.
I hope someone sees me crying. Maybe it'll give them
permission. My friend Mark Gwai, he leads
(42:31):
some beautiful father work and meditation.
He's a coach and one of the first times we met, he asked if
I wanted at the end of the time,he's like, would you be open to
do some eye gazing? And like, even for me, it was
the actor. I've done that.
I have not do that on retreats. I'm like, I know you, That's
(42:52):
weird. And that was so beautiful.
And then I had this moment, likeI saw this.
I can hear someone walking by and I was like, oh sweet, I hope
they're looking at us right now.I was staring into each other's
eyes and like this man and I both have our own families and
like, and I love this dude and he's going to be there for me
(43:13):
when my mom dies and I'm going to be there for him when his mom
dies. And I think it's one of because
he was so willing to let me see him and be so vulnerable.
And I just the other thing is I learned also this from Preston a
lot and I now exemplify this I think pretty well is like you
don't have to have your shit together to be a real man or to
be a great leader. Like he would always tell one on
(43:34):
himself. Like I struggle on my
relationships, all of them sometimes and with myself.
But being willing to be open andreal and honest is one of the
sexiest things. Like women just want
authenticity and someone who like deals with themself.
And part of that is it's not then listen, I know this isn't
all about men and women and gay or straight, but this is like
(43:56):
the feminine needs a solid space.
And it is not appropriate to putall of that masculine energy
into a feminine space. We need each other.
We need places to practice and community that is not just one
person. Like they can't, it's not
appropriate for your partner to hold all this same thing.
I'll tell the women like get a women's circle, get a group of
(44:16):
people to support you because it's not appropriate for your
husband or your partner to hold all of that either.
So it's like, you know, I reallywant to encourage you to put the
oxygen mask on yourself first ina fine community if you're out
there, even if it's just like, hey, I listen to the real men
feel show every day. And this is my, this is
community for me. Hey, this is a great place to
start. If you're identifying with
(44:38):
something that feels like maybe there's something here like
that's a good safe go where it'swarm first.
You don't have to like go into some like alpha intense boot
camp if it's not comfortable, right?
Like start with where it's a warm because you who you are is
actually one of the most interesting things in the world.
And the more you get to embrace that and find places that will
(45:00):
listen for you and hold space for you and hold you accountable
for that, I think that's where it's at.
What is your ultimate vision forDude Nation?
That all men everywhere see us, experiences us as a safe harbor.
(45:21):
That we are known in the world as a safe harbor for men, a
place that will of community andof resource.
That we become really a resourcefor the world mostly.
That we continue to fulfill our mission of developing emotional
intelligence or love, resilience, partnership,
(45:45):
community and brotherhood, and healthy ground and masculinity
in the world. And that we hold each other
accountable to do that. And may we be one of the many
beacons of light that do that because as many men are in the
world, there could be many different organizations.
We are one of them. There's this great quote.
We'll be getting one of my favorite songs.
(46:05):
He's like, ladies and gentlemen,there have been many songs
written in the world. This is one of them and it is.
And if it speaks to you, great. And that's why I even have like
Aiden, our our dude bot who's Australia too.
He's really fun to talk to. He like it's sort of decided
(46:25):
that on its own based on the research.
And I was like, well, cool, OK, and Aussie, it's a 24 hour
resource. So if you ever have any
questions, like, you know, come see us.
But I I think I answered the question.
What's one thing you wish more men knew?
That they're allowed to say no and stand up for themselves, but
(46:46):
they don't have to put up with being talked down to by their
partners just because they're men.
They don't have to be quiet justbecause they're men.
They're allowed to be loud and angry.
It's not one thing, but it's like your voice that matters.
And if your needs aren't being met or you feel needy, like
(47:09):
consider that your needs are being met and and that maybe
there's some other places where you could also get them met.
Like maybe there's other you're not alone.
And there are a lot of safe spaces here for you that can
look however you want and you can kind of take what you need
being you get to say what you need and being a man.
(47:31):
Ben, what's the best way for people to find out everything
that you and Dude Nation are up to?
Call Aiden really 84547 O dude, because you can ask any question
in the world and call it 24 hours a day from anywhere in the
world. Or go to thedudenation.com and
everything's there, including a link to book a call with me to
(47:53):
get on our newsletter, to get free resources, to get
connected, to hear real testimonials from men in our
organization and poke around andsee what a fun safe space might
be like. It's a pretty simple site.
We're not here to sell you a bunch of stuff.
And if you join our community, we send an e-mail out once a
week, usually with some really useful tools.
(48:15):
Each month is a different theme for us based on what men are
actually dealing with and what the world is dealing with.
So we're doing a lot of great work with each other and in the
organization, asking questions, encouraging, challenging men to,
to, you know, really work on their mental health and, and you
know, like the good night bro. There was a good night bro
(48:36):
movement where guys were just calling each other saying good
night bro. And it was like slowing suicide
down for, you know, a week because we started to, to think
about each other and communicateit.
So it's really simple things of just reaching out.
Ben, I really appreciate everything you're doing.
That's the best way to get some it up.
(48:58):
I I love thing all, all dude, con dude, Dojo dude, everything
I'm in and I'm really glad to find out that we're not that far
away from each other and we maybe we can do some actually in
human contact things in the future.
I would love to give you a hug, Andy Grant.
For real? Yeah.
(49:19):
And. Well, thanks, dude.
You really made an impact on my life.
Oh, and received like I really receive your acknowledgement and
know that that it I really feel the same way whether people are
listening or not. What you're up to in the world
is really beautiful. And you're one of the first
shows I started following when Igot into like I'm gonna follow
(49:42):
other men and feel. And you know, I was like this
guy. He's, you know, like, thank you,
Andy. It really spoke to me.
I'm one of those people who needed to feel validated as a
man who feels and guess what we all do.
And I heard you like I heard a call and I'm clear that dude con
is going to be in person, maybe hybrid so people can TuneIn
(50:04):
other where, but we're going to have the real men feel show or
Andy Grant on stage there. That's that feels really good to
me. And so I hope that that's
something you'd be interested inand we'll definitely follow up.
And I'd love to have you on my show.
Dude, you're getting well. We're talking about, you know,
what are some things we can actually do?
How you do take care of yourselfas a, you know, today in the
(50:26):
world, balancing what you do andhow different leaders have
turned pain and a purpose. And I would love to just stay
connected with you. And I'm really grateful for
everyone who listens to this show, whether it's your first
time or you've been listening for a long time.
If there's anything in here thatmoved you, that touched you,
that inspired you, tell Andy, tell me.
(50:47):
And more importantly, like shareit with someone in your life
because holding on to it is selfish.
You want to give it away and be like, dude, look what I learned
because then they can help hold you accountable.
And we need each other so that friends who you're like, I don't
want to call him like as much aswhen you pick up the phone and
(51:08):
you ask someone else how they'redoing or just period, you can
just listen. It's an opportunity for someone
else to be of service to you too.
So even asking for help is one of the greatest gifts that we
can give anyone in our life. And I just support and I leave
our listeners with that and and that I'm very grateful to be on
your show. Thanks for joining us everyone.
Please visit realmanfield.org for the blog post for this
(51:28):
episode, which held all the various links and resources to
discuss wherever you're discovering real and feel.
Please subscribe, follow, like, share this episode with
somebody, post a review or a comment, and until next time, be
good to yourself.
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