June 20, 2025 • 36 mins
Embracing Vulnerability and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome with Kendra Dahlstrom
In this episode of Real Men Feel, Andy Grant welcomes executive coach and speaker Kendra Dahlstrom to discuss the challenges of imposter syndrome and its impact on high achievers, especially men. Kendra shares her experiences with imposter thoughts and highlights the importance of vulnerability, emotional intelligence, and authenticity in leadership.
Together, they explore the significance of integrating personal worth beyond achievements and the role of humility in effective leadership. The conversation covers practical strategies to handle self-doubt and the cultural shift needed to redefine success and leadership in the modern age. Key takeaways include recognizing vulnerability as a strategy, questioning the validity of imposter thoughts, and promoting emotional intelligence as a learnable and crucial skill for leaders.
00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome
00:22 Guest Introduction: Kendra Dahlstrom
01:02 Discussing Imposter Syndrome
06:04 Imposter Syndrome in High Achievers
15:43 The Role of Humility in Leadership
19:35 Kendra's Personal Journey and Podcast
34:04 Concluding Thoughts and Contact Information
Connect with Kendra
Kendra Dahlstrom -- https://kendradahlstrom.com/
LinkedIn -- https://www.linkedin.com/in/kendradahlstrom
Instagram -- https://www.instagram.com/kendra.dahlstrom/
The Unworthy Leader Podcast -- https://open.spotify.com/show/4yXxXkHjoY35KaSKykVSsW?si=ce68c134df504de3
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Book a Clarity Call with Andy and get clear on your goals, what's in your way, and what you can do about it at https://theandygrant.com/talk
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
RMF Facebook Group | http://realmenfeel.org/group
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Which leads me to say that if you are questioning if you're an
imposter, that's a really good sign.
It means most likely you're not.You're just really caring about
the work you're doing and you'reaware.
Hello and welcome to Real Men Field.
This is your host, author, coachand healer, Andy Grant.
Visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me.
We have conversations that most men are not having, but that all
men and the women who love them can benefit from.
(00:22):
My guest today is Kendra Dahlstrom.
Kendra is an executive coach, keynote speaker, and host of the
Unworthy Leader Podcast. She helps high achieving leaders
ditch 0 sum leadership and embody authentic authority
because success is not based solely on performance.
She shares that imperfection is the new normal, the importance
(00:43):
of humility, and the fact that vulnerability is not a weakness
but a strategy. Looks like I picked the right
shirt to wear today. Let's do it.
Hello Kendra, and welcome to Real Men Feel.
Thank you so much for having me,Andy.
I've been looking forward to this conversation and spending
time with you. Oh, me too.
So let's just jump right in. And can you share a moment when
(01:04):
imposter syndrome hit you hard? And what did it teach you?
Yeah, so I'll answer that in twoparts.
I I think I've had several moments in my life when it's
with me. One when when I was younger and
I didn't know that that's what it was.
I just need the feelings. I need the sensations and how it
impacted my body and my mindset.So I'll share one when I was a
(01:25):
little old group, like when I actually thought, oh, is that
what I'm experiencing? And I was actually in the
workplace. I was in my 20s and I was always
a high achiever. And that's part of my story is
just high achievements and always looking for external
validation through success and achievements coming from a
trauma informed life. And as part of that process, I
(01:47):
started to notice a cognitive dissonance with the effort and
the value that I thought I was providing Andy and what I felt
was being received right from management, middle management,
higher management on the other side.
And I thought, wow, this is really fascinating.
I know my ideas are are good. I know I'm not arrogant, but at
the same time, I feel like thereis this real mismatch.
(02:09):
And so immediately, because of my trauma informed childhood, I
thought, oh, I must be doing something wrong.
I must change something about mein order for them to better
understand what it is I'm tryingto communicate instead of it
maybe just being, maybe they're not interested, maybe it didn't
land, you know, all the other options.
But because of my background, itwas really the first moment
(02:32):
where I felt like, Oh my gosh, maybe I'm not good enough.
Maybe I, my ideas aren't as goodas I think they are.
Maybe I'm not fit for this job. And so I started doing the thing
that most people do and I started looking for a new job.
And then I noticed that pattern,you know, about every two years
kind of repeating itself for a while until I got into my early
(02:54):
30s. And then that's when I really
started getting deeper into thiswork and realizing that that
wasn't helping the problem. It was just moving the deck
tears around the deck, you know.So that is sort of when I, I
first experienced it. The second answer I want to give
you is that pop culture has named in foster syndrome, which
I think really makes it much more complex and complicated for
(03:19):
us to move through and work withbecause it a syndrome is
something essentially that rightwe have for the rest of our
life. It's not curable.
It's an endemic of sorts. And the reality is, is that it's
not. It's something we can choose to
listen to. We can choose to believe.
We can question its validity andlearn and grow from that through
gratitude. And and so I know we're going to
(03:40):
get deeper into that, but I did just want to address that at the
beginning episode is that I liketo reframe it as imposter
thoughts. So it gives us more agency
versus imposter syndrome. And it's no fault by you or any
of the listeners for referring to it as that, because that's
what pop culture is thought of. And that's a great
differentiation. I really appreciate that because
yeah, it, it they are just our thoughts.
(04:03):
Like I I I was realizing earlierin preparing for this that I've
often consider myself as a fraudand and felt that those imposter
thoughts, but I've never watchedsomeone else and decided they're
being an imposter. So is this something that's just
normally a label we put in ourselves as opposed to others?
(04:23):
Yes. And so for those of us that are
emotionally intelligent and consciously aware, the answer is
yes. We don't usually ever think
anybody is, even if it's a new CEO that's like first time CEO
and you're at the company, you most likely allow them Grace,
right, Andy, you would say, oh wow, you know, they're really
good and they bring this expertise, but it's going to
(04:45):
take them a while to get used tothis job.
It's a new job. They're learning, they're
growing. We find competence in their
ability to grow and be resilient.
We're not finding competence in everything they know.
And that's the disconnect is when we're holding ourselves
accountable and we think we're an imposter.
We're holding ourselves accountable for what we need to
(05:06):
know or what we think we need toknow, not our ability to be
resilient and to grow and adapt.So we give other people much
more grace than we give ourselves.
So that's the first part. The second part is around this
unique thing that if somebody istruly an imposter, like think
through maybe catch Me if you can right with with Leonardo
(05:29):
DiCaprio about that real story about the guy.
He was clearly an imposter and pretending to be a doctor and
all these things. They actually never question.
They are. They don't have that social
aptitude or emotional intelligence, at least through
my own research. Again, I'm not a psycho
psychologist or psychotherapist.However, in my own research and
my own lived experience, I foundthat those people never question
(05:53):
if they're an imposter. Which leads me to say that if
you are questioning if you're animposter, that's a really good
sign. It means most likely you're not.
You're just really caring about the work you're doing and you're
aware. So I know you've worked with
with multiple Fortune 10 companies.
How common is it for you to findbusiness leaders that that have
these thoughts about being a fraud it?
(06:14):
It's fairly common, I would say over 90% even though many would
not admit it. So again, you know, like the
work you do. Indeed, we often will see signs
and symptoms, but we have to meet the client where they're
at. So we won't call it out unless
we feel like they're really ready to to hear that.
The interesting part about this is it's highly contextual.
(06:34):
So a great example is that I canwork with a very high
functioning C-Suite leader, engineer or sales or marketing
expert who knows their domain very well.
As soon as they move to a new domain and or activity like
keynote speaking, suddenly it's a change in dynamic.
(06:57):
So suddenly they, they realize, Oh my gosh, I thought that
because I'm so competent over here, I would be equally
competent over here. And so they're holding
themselves to a really high standard.
And what they realize is that itdoesn't always transfer.
It's not as smooth. There's going to, you know, and
especially if it's outside of our comfort zone to speak on
stages to 10s of thousands of people.
(07:18):
There's a learning curve there. And so often times I'll deal
with leaders that are very confident in their day job, but
they start to get some imposter thoughts and a lot of self doubt
nerves when it comes to speakingon stage.
But if you put them back in the container that they're familiar
with, you're fine. So it's in, in the first
example, this, this isn't something that only newbies
(07:38):
face, but any new task, any new goal, any new project, any new
action can bring this up even ifyou've been experiencing
something else for, you know, and very successful at it.
Absolutely. And I mean, case in point, if
you don't mind me putting you onthe spot and I'll share my
stories. When you first started a
podcast, even though you're a very outgoing, easy person to
talk to, did you ever have moments where you thought like,
(07:59):
well, gosh, maybe I'm not ready or what am I doing?
Oh, sure, I wouldn't have described myself as easy to talk
to and outgoing, you know, So yeah, I mean, yeah, my
astrological sign is a Cancer. I'm like, yeah, I'm withdrawn.
I'm, I'm, I'm shocked at how good I've become at engaging
people in conversation, but thatskill wasn't there on on episode
(08:19):
1. Right, right.
So you had to learn and grow. And it's the same for me, even
though I would be considered a social extrovert and I've done
keynote speaking and I'm comfortable facilitating
workshops and trainings and whatnot.
At the same time, this is a whole new thing, right?
A whole new task or project. So as soon as I started doing
this, I just stayed in the joy of it and that was fine.
(08:42):
But then as soon as I stepped out of the joy and started
looking at it like a business and all the tasks and all the
things that have to be done on the back end, I immediately was
like, oh gosh, maybe I'm not good enough to be doing this.
So it's it's very normal. And so that's one goal of the
Unworthy Reader podcast is to just help normalize these
conversations and feelings because we have them several
(09:03):
times a day, all of us in different contexts.
And the more that we can actually start creating
community on shows like yours and talking about the things
that you talk about vulnerability and all these
types of things and, and embracethose as actual leadership
qualities, the more that I believe we have a chance to
actually not just change the culture we're in, Andy, but
corporate culture, the corporateculture that's like, Oh no,
(09:26):
that's a weakness. And I have to pretend like I
know all the answers and I'm notscared.
So you mentioned dealing with clients that have the the
symptoms of imposter thoughts, but they struggle to admit it.
So why do you think so many highachievers, especially men, are
kind of the last people to to toopen up and recognize that this
(09:47):
is an issue for them? Yeah, such a good question.
I've been thinking about it a lot before we met, given your
discreet audience. And so I think one thing is
gender neutral, but that men andwomen both experience for women
who are also listening, we oftenget wrapped up with our identity
(10:07):
in what we do, not who we are. And so that gets really
intertwined with our our career because we spent so much of our
time in work in our career, in our title and our job.
And we even if we think we're doing a good job of keeping it
mutually exclusive from who we are and our own innate and
(10:28):
intrinsic value, it's really hard.
And so I feel like because of how things have evolved, if you
need to think back to the beginning of time when men were,
you know, doing a lot of the protecting and, and depending on
the tribe, they were the ones doing the hunting, although I
know that can can vary, but the point is that they were sort of
the ones out there doing the work and the women were, you
(10:51):
know, doing the, the more nurturing activity, right?
And the food and with the children and whatnot.
And so as we think about how that evolved into where we are
today, I think it's harder for men.
It's hard for women too, but I think it's a lot harder for men.
It's my observation to decouple what they do from who they are,
(11:14):
which is why I think the work you're doing is so important.
Andy And then I the next layer to that that I'll just add here
is that many people don't often realize that success and shame
can coexist. I think many times we think
like, oh, if I am successful, then I cannot show that I am
(11:37):
still healing or, you know, dealing with being from trauma
informed life or whatever it maybe.
And So what that leads to, as you would know of anyone else is
there, is there the stuffing down of the shame and then the
the feeling of the success bucket to feel better about
ourselves, to contradict that fame?
(11:59):
Right. Yeah, we can't.
At least I can't. I have not been successful at
being so successful that I can bury my shame or her or I can
love something enough that if I don't love myself, I somehow am
balancing that out. And yeah, I I find it just not a
possibility. Yeah.
And so I, I mean, I would love to hear from men who are
listening to this and your listeners on, you know, if my
(12:21):
observations are true. But that's when I run into
leaders who are male that are very high functional.
They often have these symptoms of shame beneath the surface,
but they're not ready to acknowledge it or admit it.
Because again, you have to thinkabout how we branded the
workplace. We don't deal with emotions.
We don't deal with feelings. We stick with facts and so that
(12:42):
what that does is it just creates emotional bypassing,
which is further stuff. How does someone tell the
difference between healthy self-awareness and, you know,
sabotaging self doubt? That's a great question.
So I'll just answer how I've done it and then I'd love to
hear what you what works for youbecause I think between the two
of us, your listeners, you probably can answer it.
(13:04):
And, and the reason I hesitate to give a prescription is
because again, I'm not a psychologist or a therapist.
So I want to be real thoughtful about the listeners hearing and
what they glean from it. But for me, I, I realized that
peace is the end all be all form.
So when I'm making a decision orwhen I'm evaluating something, I
(13:25):
always ask myself, does this would bring me closer to peace
or further away from peace? And, and the one clarity on that
is that it doesn't always mean that it's something that feels
good, but you just know in your heart and soul that it's going
to bring you closer to peace. Like, oh, this is something I'll
(13:46):
have to go through. This is something I'll need to
learn. But I know, I know lifting this
weight is going to get me to thegoal that I want of having these
really nice biceps doesn't always feel good what you're
going through, right? So I found that question is my
lighthouse, so to speak, in terms of really helping me
(14:06):
evaluate as I'm looking at data,for instance, and say, Oh my
gosh, I am sabotaging myself. I don't think I'm going to do
good at this, this speech or workshop or keynote.
I have to stop and say, are these thoughts bringing me
closer to peace or further away?Well, answer from me is further
away now. Is there truth in something I
(14:29):
could do different? Yeah.
I think you need to block two more hours of rehearsal on your
calendar and you need to go through the outline about two
times to make sure it's really tight and articulating the
message that you want them to walk away, away and do those
things bring me closer to peace?Yes.
Are they maybe going to be task driven and take some time and
(14:50):
mental power? Yes.
Is that helpful? Yeah, no, I I agree.
And in my experience, I find that the stricter a negative
thought is that's the that's thethe sabotaging self doubt.
Whereas if it's gentleness, oh, I need like you're saying I need
to practice it a little more. If it if those those more subtle
things are the are the healthy awareness.
(15:11):
Yes, yes, I absolutely think so.And, and, and where I think it
gets conflated is that often times there could be a glimmer
of truth in the stricter thought.
But when we think through, you know, how God and light operates
it, it's gentle, right? It usually it doesn't come at
you like that. That's dark energy, right?
(15:33):
Or Satan or whatever you want tocall it, right?
So that's dark energy. And so we need to be careful
which energy we're attaching ourour truth to.
Yeah. Cool.
Kendra, I've heard you say that the real impact of a leader is
based on humility. Can you expand on that?
Yeah, I think we're all tired ofsmoke and mirrors.
(15:55):
Culturally, I think we're at a third.
I'm sure not just what's going on globally, but if we just look
at leaders and even look at company and monopolies and
things going on around the world, the corporate scale as
well as, you know, global and government scale, I think we're
really wanting humility. We don't expect someone to be
(16:17):
perfect, but we just want to know that we're getting true.
And I think post pandemic, I think just because all of things
that transpired, I think people are just, you know, doubtful.
And now unfortunately, we're living in this world that's very
divided, like, oh, you're here or here.
And you and I both understand the power of oneness.
(16:37):
And so that makes it hard, right?
It's like, oh, OK, we can just, we just have to start being the
light and being positive and allthose things.
So I think as we look through the next generations of leaders,
I think humility and authenticity, Andy, are
something that have been a requirement for a long time.
Like even if you think back to tribal people and population,
indigenous cultures and how theyoperate.
(17:00):
And we lost it along the way as we scaled into quote, UN quote
corporate business and what we expect of people.
If you look a politician, like what we expected them like no
one's ever going to be perfect. Like that's kind of, that's
really real ridiculous that we ever thought someone was going
to be perfect, you know, in order to be an exposition.
And so I, I think we're hopefully dialing more towards
(17:23):
an era where humility and authenticity and the, the
willingness to be vulnerable andshare true, accept mistakes, not
be ego driven is going to be even more important.
And then layered on top of it, we have Jen AI.
So what is going to differentiate leaders from what
(17:45):
Jen AI can do, which is just, you know, tasks.
Here's how I'm going to delegate.
Here's our the ideas, here's thestrategic plan.
I mean, at some point, Jen AI, it's already pretty close to
being able to do that. But what will differentiate a
per leader is their EQ, right? Is their ability to lean in and
say, oh, Andy, great job on the work, but how are you feeling?
(18:06):
What can I do to help support you and your career growth?
Those kinds of conversations that many leaders are still not
having. Is emotional intelligence
something that is an innate scale or isn't?
Or is it something that's learnable for everybody?
So there's different schools of thought on it.
I'm at the school of thought that it is something that's
learnable. I believe we're all born with
(18:27):
it. It's innate.
It's just how much you were brained and programmed to turn
it off as a child, right? I, I mean, if you look at a
baby, they're very emotionally intelligent.
They're very aware of their thoughts and feelings, and then
they take action based on that and what they want to do.
Now one would say that if you look at the composites of EQ
(18:48):
that their impulse control is probably very low because they
think something, feel it, and then they do it right away.
But those things come with livedexperience.
So the one thing I really like about the psychometric
assessment for EQ that is untrueor any other psychometric
assessment is that you can actually work on a composite or
a a certain quality like empathyor impulse control or stress
(19:10):
tolerance and you can actually see it move.
You can actually change your test results.
Whereas a lot of the other psychometric assessments are
behavior based. And they'll say, oh, Andy,
you're an ENTJ and you're alwaysgoing to be.
And so I think that that is veryempowering for leaders and, and,
and people to be able to understand that it's a snapshot
in time. That's the result.
(19:32):
And that this is the skill that if I choose to lean into and
grow, I. So Kendra, you mentioned your
podcast earlier, The Unworthy Leader.
What inspired you to create thatand how do people react to
Unworthy being in the title? So I, I unworthiness has been my
story for a long time. I think it's something again
(19:52):
from, you know, trauma informed background all through childhood
and then just further patterned and, and reinforced through 20s
and somewhat into my 30s. And then it got better.
But then it would show up in pockets and I just got better at
hiding it. Even though I was really
successful in my day job inside,I still just felt like I was in
(20:14):
a lot of inks. And so Fast forward till.
I don't know. Last summer I'd already had this
idea of doing a podcast and I had kind of played around with
the name, and I've been advised against it because most podcasts
you want to name the positive, right?
If you think of duality, you don't want to name it the thing
(20:35):
people don't want to be. You want to name it the thing to
be. You know what they are because
they're whole and complete or the thing may aspire to be.
And so I had branding experts and marketing experts say, oh, I
don't know that you should do that.
You should call it the confidentleader or something else.
But you know, to the point of knowing our truth.
I meditated on it. I sat with her for a long time.
(20:58):
I journaled and I said, no, thisis the title.
This is the title. About a month later, I ended up
with strechacopterous pneumonia,turned to septic shock.
It was in respiratory failure atthe beginning of liver and heart
failure and was really sick, obviously almost died, Had this
(21:19):
sort of NDE type experience in the hospital and three or four
days later come out. And it was that experience where
I realized two things. One was that I was so stubborn
that I had your test how worthy I am to be here and try to
(21:40):
leave. And God said, no, you're, you're
here. And I thought, wow, I can't
believe I've been so stubborn tomy whole life that I had to go
through something that crazy to actually now believe I'm worthy
of being here and that I have a purpose.
If I'm not here by chance, I'm here on purpose.
And so I said I absolutely have to launch this podcast because I
(22:02):
want to share this message and Iwant to normalize this because I
feel like so many people can relate to this on different
levels, whether it's past or present or contextual or or
omnipresent, whatever it is. And so I felt like I that whole
experience, the purpose of it was to call me to do this.
And people have written me back that I've asked to be on the
(22:24):
show and they say, well, tell mewhat you mean by the Unworthy
leader, because I think they're nervous about it identifying
their brand with it. And I get that.
And so I acknowledged that and Isaid, yeah, this isn't for you.
That's fine. However, I will tell you that
the people that have come on have been the people who are
more open and willing to say, you know what?
Yeah, I felt these things. And those are the exact guests I
(22:47):
want. I I don't really want someone
who's going to come on and shareplatitudes of yeah, I felt
doubt, but not really be willingto share the whole truth.
That's what I'm trying to get away from.
Yeah, and in in case people aren't familiar with NDE that's
near death experience and you seeing how that you know you you
(23:09):
put yourself through that to prove your worthiness very much
aligns with with my history of suicide attempts and I keep
after let's just check one more time.
Let me try to get out of here, make sure I'm supposed to be
here and you know that that's I'm well, I said it was was did
you need to test your worthinessjust the one time?
Well, I had contemplated suicidewhen I was younger on two
(23:33):
different occasions. Nothing as significant as yours,
thank goodness, where I actually, you know, went through
with the act or whatnot. The first one, I was about 10
years old and I, I was going through a significant time with
bullying, but it was also a timewhen my dad was threatening for
(23:53):
full custody and there was a lotof abuse going on in that
household. So it was just really rough for
me. And I think I just felt
completely alienated by some of her personal.
I guess people call them norms, but they're, they're, they're
not very compassionate tactics going on in the cliques.
And so I remember, you know, holding a knife to my wrist in
(24:15):
the kitchen and I was putting some pressure.
It was starting to get red, but it wasn't bloody.
And then my mom walked out of her room.
Obviously I hadn't thought through this very well and thank
goodness. And I pulled it away.
And then, you know, and then I, I, I think, you know, if I think
back on that moment, I think it was just sort of this larger
knowing voice came in that said,don't just just don't do that.
(24:38):
So I feel very grateful that, that, you know, I felt like it
was divine intervention on both instances.
The the later one when was when I was undergoing a sexual
harassment lawsuit, which was just awful and rough.
And I had happened to also go through ACL surgery that was not
recovering well. And now what I know about
somatics and everything else I said, well, my right knee, I
(25:00):
mean, all this like this makes total sense, right?
The mask, go inside everything. You know, knees are about
movement going forward and life and everything.
And so I was also on, you know, the medication they give you and
I don't think I was reacting very well to it, but I didn't
feel that. And so I was just like, and
luckily at that time a friend called me and knew something was
(25:22):
wrong. And luckily I was honest and I
said, OK, you need to come pick up this bottle.
And so they came and got it. So nothing, you know, as extreme
as, as what you've been through,Andy.
But I think there were two otherterms where I felt like I tested
it. And when I look back in
hindsight, God wanted to keep mehere for some reason.
Now I know why. Yeah, I just want to throw
(25:43):
something there and suicidal thoughts, attempts.
It's not a competition. I, I, I don't want to be
considered. Oh, I'm better at that than
anyone. Like that is not the thing.
So having the thought once in your life, it can be a horrible,
horrible experience. I'm glad you saw the truth and,
and listen to those voices and, and saw your worthiness because
(26:06):
you know, this goes back to kindof the discussion about thoughts
of, of fraud. I find that only the worthiest
people question their worth. That's right.
Yeah. It's right because we have such
I, you know, I would say consciousness, social awareness,
I need to help. I need to actually have purpose.
(26:27):
And it means a lot to us that we're actually self actualized.
And if we're not, we feel like abroad, right?
So I'm going to change the tone a little bit.
I I recently came across a 20 year old journal and it was from
the first time I worked with a coach and he had me describe and
draw a picture of of my gremlin of my darkest voice and it
(26:50):
looked like Danny DeVito as the Penguin.
So I want that made me think about this.
So if imposter syndrome had a voice, what would it sound like?
Well, it, I'll say this, it doesn't know compassion, it
doesn't know love. It doesn't have your highest
good or interest of heart and itdoesn't hold grace.
(27:15):
And so I can tell you what you know what it doesn't have.
Now in terms of what it does have, it can, it can, it's
usually always just, it's very critical.
It, it always assumes the worst possible scenario.
And it it, it's judgment. If I was to put it into one
word, it's pure judgment from a place of mockery, belittlement,
(27:40):
and disempowerment. Now, what the boys actually
sounds like depends on each individual.
Some people, when you really do the work, it's like, oh, that's
my mother, that's my father, that's my grandmother.
That's my stepmother. That's that teacher I had in
second grade. That's my best friend that I had
in high school. So it can, it can vary on terms
(28:02):
of like sound, but in terms of its vibration and tone and
energetic blueprint, I'll call it, it's never of and for the
highest good of you, it's, it's right.
I always like to call it. It's like the wedge of Satan.
It's the wedge of darkness that finds a little spot to get in
there. And then that's when it starts
to do its work. Does anything stand out for you
(28:22):
as a ridiculous thing you told yourself in the past that now
you can laugh at? Oh jeez, there's so many.
I mean, one that may not seem relative, but it comes up
actually quite a bit is I alwaysloved animals and I'd always
thought about being a vet, but because I didn't always have the
(28:43):
healthiest mindset, I never thought I was going to be smart
enough to get into that school. So I didn't even try.
So here I am about 25 and then high tech working, and I was at
this point in my life where I was kind of starting to question
like, am I doing what I love andyou know what's going on?
That's how I thought about goingback to that school.
(29:05):
And so I got my diploma for my Bachelor of Science from where I
went to college. I got all the paperwork ready
and I was starting to apply. And then I heard this voice in
my head say, Andra, you're so dumb.
Why would you want to try to go back to school now?
You're 25. You wouldn't even be out of
school and be able to become a vet until you're probably almost
(29:26):
30. By then you're going to be so
old. Like, what are you even
thinking? And I laugh at that now because
now I understand, you know, hereI am 50 and I'm like, that was a
blip in time, you know, like, but here was this voice trying
to sabotage and, and, and convince me that I was not
adequate to go after this dream of caring for animals.
(29:50):
Enter Is there a practice or a program or a book that has
really helped you that you wouldlike to share?
Oh my gosh, I there's so many Andy.
And I think like many of us, we kind of find a hybrid that like
a little bit of everything that works for us.
The one thing that I think has worked the most for me is
(30:12):
somatic is being able to really pause and quiet and and start to
feel into like your body and what is going on.
Not just the thought, but the thought is usually connected to
something in your body. And even if it is only up here
starting to get curious and ask it questions about, OK, what
(30:34):
color are you? And if you were to have it be a
shape, what shape are you and what is you know, what is the
red furball want to tell me? Because when you start to
dissociate it like that, it becomes easier to not only hear
what's going on, but not be as emotionally impacted by it.
And I found so many raw fruit and just impeccable wisdom come
(30:58):
to me through those those conversations and relief has
been on the other side of it. So I would say from like a
trauma informed and foster thought model, that would really
be what I would say would help me the most.
But obviously there's meditation, there's generally a
(31:21):
lot of times you, but even like you can do inner child
journaling with the adult, you know, self, you can do the same
with imposter, right? So your right hand is your, your
higher self and you're, you know, you're God born, you know,
self. And then your left hand would be
OK, these imposter thoughts. And then you allow them to have
(31:41):
an exchange and, and sometimes what you'll find is that
imposter thought is just a defiant child that wants
attention. So they're tipping the chair,
they're throwing the food, and they're angry because of
whatever they've experienced as their child.
And I'll offer that it's right, Right.
And so they're angry. And because we're taught to
(32:03):
suppress all these things and not give it attention, then the
older we get there, we start to say, oh, I feel still thinking
about when I was 4, like, why can't I just get over that?
But if you really give it some time to do it and the journaling
is a great way to do it, you just start to realize that them
tossed their thought is often just, you know, this 4 year old
kid that just wants a little attention.
So it's throwing ice cream across the road.
(32:25):
So. What is one thing that you wish
more men knew? Well, I think I started by
saying that the worth isn't always tied to productivity,
performance, and the pressure tohold it all together.
I am that that your value isn't what in what you do.
Although you can talk about selfactualization and Maslow's,
(32:47):
Maslow's hierarchy, that's a different conversation, but it's
more about who you are like as is human being who you are.
And, and I think a lot of, like I said, men find themselves
defining who they are by what they do.
And that's an easy thing to do, especially because we want to be
(33:08):
the change we want to see. And so when you start getting
those kinds of idioms and whatnot, it, it makes it really
complex. But I, I, I would say that
that's number one. And then the next thing is that
vulnerability is not a weakness,it's a strategy.
It's not to be overused, right? It's supposed to be used with
deliberateness and precision, and it's not to be manipulated.
(33:31):
But when used appropriately within context, it has so much
power to open up relationships and conversations in a room.
And if you're really after influence and leadership and
building deep relationships, whether it be with your team or
family, that's where it starts because that's when fight safety
(33:54):
kicks in. And then actually people are
open to sharing thoughts and ideas.
And that's how we become a better people, a better culture.
And that's where innovation lives in the technology realm.
Kendra, what's the best way for people to connect with you?
Well, they can certainly find meon my website, which is Kendra
dahlstrom.com. There's a contact button there
(34:17):
with a variety of ways to contact me whether or not if you
want to talk about me facilitating a workshop, you
want one-on-one coaching, you want team coaching, you want a
keynote, it's all there. You can also find me on Spotify.
You can listen to our podcast there and it's also published on
YouTube under the Unworthy Leader Podcast.
(34:37):
And I also have presents on Instagram and LinkedIn.
But I would say that the main ways to get a hold of me are
probably my website with the contact button or LinkedIn.
Awesome, Kendra, I'm so glad. So I was recently guest on your
podcast. I'm glad we connected and have
been have been having continuingthis conversation on both of our
platforms because as you said, it's a very needed one.
(34:58):
And let's say it's a worthy discussion to talk about
worthiness. Right.
Yeah. Well, I mean, and your shirt
says it all, right? And I know you're the king of
vulnerability. So I love that we were able to
connect on this because I think the world needs more people like
you that are willing to stand upand say that, you know,
vulnerability and masculinity don't have to be mutually
(35:19):
exclusive. This is something worth telling
ourselves and it's not helping us as a people or an individual.
Yeah, that's why I love, you know, you're saying
vulnerability is not a weakness but a strategy.
And I often say that vulnerability and authenticity
are superpowers that men, too many men, ignore and have been
taught otherwise. So yeah, keep making a lot of
(35:39):
noise. Yeah, Thank you taking.
That tree of unworthiness and see who drops out.
Yeah, exactly. And I think between the two of
us, we can change the culture togo move away from zero sum
thinking like, like I have to bea leader, but it has to be the
cost or myself and my humanness,which is vulnerability, which is
authentic. Thanks so much.
(36:02):
Thanks for joining us, everyone.Please visit realmenfeel.org and
see the blog post for this episode.
We'll have all the various linksand resources discussed.
Wherever you're discovering RealMen Feel, please subscribe,
follow, like, share this episodewith someone, post a review or
comment. If you don't know where you want
to go, it is impossible to get there.
If that's the case for you, I invite you to book a free
Clarity call with me. Visit theandygrant.com/talk.
(36:26):
We'll explore what you want, what's in your way, and what you
can do about it. Until next time, be good to
yourself.
Which leads me to say that if you are questioning if you're an
imposter, that's a really good sign.
It means most likely you're not.You're just really caring about
the work you're doing and you'reaware.
Hello and welcome to Real Men Field.
This is your host, author, coachand healer, Andy Grant.
Visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me.
We have conversations that most men are not having, but that all
men and the women who love them can benefit from.
(00:22):
My guest today is Kendra Dahlstrom.
Kendra is an executive coach, keynote speaker, and host of the
Unworthy Leader Podcast. She helps high achieving leaders
ditch 0 sum leadership and embody authentic authority
because success is not based solely on performance.
She shares that imperfection is the new normal, the importance
(00:43):
of humility, and the fact that vulnerability is not a weakness
but a strategy. Looks like I picked the right
shirt to wear today. Let's do it.
Hello Kendra, and welcome to Real Men Feel.
Thank you so much for having me,Andy.
I've been looking forward to this conversation and spending
time with you. Oh, me too.
So let's just jump right in. And can you share a moment when
(01:04):
imposter syndrome hit you hard? And what did it teach you?
Yeah, so I'll answer that in twoparts.
I I think I've had several moments in my life when it's
with me. One when when I was younger and
I didn't know that that's what it was.
I just need the feelings. I need the sensations and how it
impacted my body and my mindset.So I'll share one when I was a
(01:25):
little old group, like when I actually thought, oh, is that
what I'm experiencing? And I was actually in the
workplace. I was in my 20s and I was always
a high achiever. And that's part of my story is
just high achievements and always looking for external
validation through success and achievements coming from a
trauma informed life. And as part of that process, I
(01:47):
started to notice a cognitive dissonance with the effort and
the value that I thought I was providing Andy and what I felt
was being received right from management, middle management,
higher management on the other side.
And I thought, wow, this is really fascinating.
I know my ideas are are good. I know I'm not arrogant, but at
the same time, I feel like thereis this real mismatch.
(02:09):
And so immediately, because of my trauma informed childhood, I
thought, oh, I must be doing something wrong.
I must change something about mein order for them to better
understand what it is I'm tryingto communicate instead of it
maybe just being, maybe they're not interested, maybe it didn't
land, you know, all the other options.
But because of my background, itwas really the first moment
(02:32):
where I felt like, Oh my gosh, maybe I'm not good enough.
Maybe I, my ideas aren't as goodas I think they are.
Maybe I'm not fit for this job. And so I started doing the thing
that most people do and I started looking for a new job.
And then I noticed that pattern,you know, about every two years
kind of repeating itself for a while until I got into my early
(02:54):
30s. And then that's when I really
started getting deeper into thiswork and realizing that that
wasn't helping the problem. It was just moving the deck
tears around the deck, you know.So that is sort of when I, I
first experienced it. The second answer I want to give
you is that pop culture has named in foster syndrome, which
I think really makes it much more complex and complicated for
(03:19):
us to move through and work withbecause it a syndrome is
something essentially that rightwe have for the rest of our
life. It's not curable.
It's an endemic of sorts. And the reality is, is that it's
not. It's something we can choose to
listen to. We can choose to believe.
We can question its validity andlearn and grow from that through
gratitude. And and so I know we're going to
(03:40):
get deeper into that, but I did just want to address that at the
beginning episode is that I liketo reframe it as imposter
thoughts. So it gives us more agency
versus imposter syndrome. And it's no fault by you or any
of the listeners for referring to it as that, because that's
what pop culture is thought of. And that's a great
differentiation. I really appreciate that because
yeah, it, it they are just our thoughts.
(04:03):
Like I I I was realizing earlierin preparing for this that I've
often consider myself as a fraudand and felt that those imposter
thoughts, but I've never watchedsomeone else and decided they're
being an imposter. So is this something that's just
normally a label we put in ourselves as opposed to others?
(04:23):
Yes. And so for those of us that are
emotionally intelligent and consciously aware, the answer is
yes. We don't usually ever think
anybody is, even if it's a new CEO that's like first time CEO
and you're at the company, you most likely allow them Grace,
right, Andy, you would say, oh wow, you know, they're really
good and they bring this expertise, but it's going to
(04:45):
take them a while to get used tothis job.
It's a new job. They're learning, they're
growing. We find competence in their
ability to grow and be resilient.
We're not finding competence in everything they know.
And that's the disconnect is when we're holding ourselves
accountable and we think we're an imposter.
We're holding ourselves accountable for what we need to
(05:06):
know or what we think we need toknow, not our ability to be
resilient and to grow and adapt.So we give other people much
more grace than we give ourselves.
So that's the first part. The second part is around this
unique thing that if somebody istruly an imposter, like think
through maybe catch Me if you can right with with Leonardo
(05:29):
DiCaprio about that real story about the guy.
He was clearly an imposter and pretending to be a doctor and
all these things. They actually never question.
They are. They don't have that social
aptitude or emotional intelligence, at least through
my own research. Again, I'm not a psycho
psychologist or psychotherapist.However, in my own research and
my own lived experience, I foundthat those people never question
(05:53):
if they're an imposter. Which leads me to say that if
you are questioning if you're animposter, that's a really good
sign. It means most likely you're not.
You're just really caring about the work you're doing and you're
aware. So I know you've worked with
with multiple Fortune 10 companies.
How common is it for you to findbusiness leaders that that have
these thoughts about being a fraud it?
(06:14):
It's fairly common, I would say over 90% even though many would
not admit it. So again, you know, like the
work you do. Indeed, we often will see signs
and symptoms, but we have to meet the client where they're
at. So we won't call it out unless
we feel like they're really ready to to hear that.
The interesting part about this is it's highly contextual.
(06:34):
So a great example is that I canwork with a very high
functioning C-Suite leader, engineer or sales or marketing
expert who knows their domain very well.
As soon as they move to a new domain and or activity like
keynote speaking, suddenly it's a change in dynamic.
(06:57):
So suddenly they, they realize, Oh my gosh, I thought that
because I'm so competent over here, I would be equally
competent over here. And so they're holding
themselves to a really high standard.
And what they realize is that itdoesn't always transfer.
It's not as smooth. There's going to, you know, and
especially if it's outside of our comfort zone to speak on
stages to 10s of thousands of people.
(07:18):
There's a learning curve there. And so often times I'll deal
with leaders that are very confident in their day job, but
they start to get some imposter thoughts and a lot of self doubt
nerves when it comes to speakingon stage.
But if you put them back in the container that they're familiar
with, you're fine. So it's in, in the first
example, this, this isn't something that only newbies
(07:38):
face, but any new task, any new goal, any new project, any new
action can bring this up even ifyou've been experiencing
something else for, you know, and very successful at it.
Absolutely. And I mean, case in point, if
you don't mind me putting you onthe spot and I'll share my
stories. When you first started a
podcast, even though you're a very outgoing, easy person to
talk to, did you ever have moments where you thought like,
(07:59):
well, gosh, maybe I'm not ready or what am I doing?
Oh, sure, I wouldn't have described myself as easy to talk
to and outgoing, you know, So yeah, I mean, yeah, my
astrological sign is a Cancer. I'm like, yeah, I'm withdrawn.
I'm, I'm, I'm shocked at how good I've become at engaging
people in conversation, but thatskill wasn't there on on episode
(08:19):
1. Right, right.
So you had to learn and grow. And it's the same for me, even
though I would be considered a social extrovert and I've done
keynote speaking and I'm comfortable facilitating
workshops and trainings and whatnot.
At the same time, this is a whole new thing, right?
A whole new task or project. So as soon as I started doing
this, I just stayed in the joy of it and that was fine.
(08:42):
But then as soon as I stepped out of the joy and started
looking at it like a business and all the tasks and all the
things that have to be done on the back end, I immediately was
like, oh gosh, maybe I'm not good enough to be doing this.
So it's it's very normal. And so that's one goal of the
Unworthy Reader podcast is to just help normalize these
conversations and feelings because we have them several
(09:03):
times a day, all of us in different contexts.
And the more that we can actually start creating
community on shows like yours and talking about the things
that you talk about vulnerability and all these
types of things and, and embracethose as actual leadership
qualities, the more that I believe we have a chance to
actually not just change the culture we're in, Andy, but
corporate culture, the corporateculture that's like, Oh no,
(09:26):
that's a weakness. And I have to pretend like I
know all the answers and I'm notscared.
So you mentioned dealing with clients that have the the
symptoms of imposter thoughts, but they struggle to admit it.
So why do you think so many highachievers, especially men, are
kind of the last people to to toopen up and recognize that this
(09:47):
is an issue for them? Yeah, such a good question.
I've been thinking about it a lot before we met, given your
discreet audience. And so I think one thing is
gender neutral, but that men andwomen both experience for women
who are also listening, we oftenget wrapped up with our identity
(10:07):
in what we do, not who we are. And so that gets really
intertwined with our our career because we spent so much of our
time in work in our career, in our title and our job.
And we even if we think we're doing a good job of keeping it
mutually exclusive from who we are and our own innate and
(10:28):
intrinsic value, it's really hard.
And so I feel like because of how things have evolved, if you
need to think back to the beginning of time when men were,
you know, doing a lot of the protecting and, and depending on
the tribe, they were the ones doing the hunting, although I
know that can can vary, but the point is that they were sort of
the ones out there doing the work and the women were, you
(10:51):
know, doing the, the more nurturing activity, right?
And the food and with the children and whatnot.
And so as we think about how that evolved into where we are
today, I think it's harder for men.
It's hard for women too, but I think it's a lot harder for men.
It's my observation to decouple what they do from who they are,
(11:14):
which is why I think the work you're doing is so important.
Andy And then I the next layer to that that I'll just add here
is that many people don't often realize that success and shame
can coexist. I think many times we think
like, oh, if I am successful, then I cannot show that I am
(11:37):
still healing or, you know, dealing with being from trauma
informed life or whatever it maybe.
And So what that leads to, as you would know of anyone else is
there, is there the stuffing down of the shame and then the
the feeling of the success bucket to feel better about
ourselves, to contradict that fame?
(11:59):
Right. Yeah, we can't.
At least I can't. I have not been successful at
being so successful that I can bury my shame or her or I can
love something enough that if I don't love myself, I somehow am
balancing that out. And yeah, I I find it just not a
possibility. Yeah.
And so I, I mean, I would love to hear from men who are
listening to this and your listeners on, you know, if my
(12:21):
observations are true. But that's when I run into
leaders who are male that are very high functional.
They often have these symptoms of shame beneath the surface,
but they're not ready to acknowledge it or admit it.
Because again, you have to thinkabout how we branded the
workplace. We don't deal with emotions.
We don't deal with feelings. We stick with facts and so that
(12:42):
what that does is it just creates emotional bypassing,
which is further stuff. How does someone tell the
difference between healthy self-awareness and, you know,
sabotaging self doubt? That's a great question.
So I'll just answer how I've done it and then I'd love to
hear what you what works for youbecause I think between the two
of us, your listeners, you probably can answer it.
(13:04):
And, and the reason I hesitate to give a prescription is
because again, I'm not a psychologist or a therapist.
So I want to be real thoughtful about the listeners hearing and
what they glean from it. But for me, I, I realized that
peace is the end all be all form.
So when I'm making a decision orwhen I'm evaluating something, I
(13:25):
always ask myself, does this would bring me closer to peace
or further away from peace? And, and the one clarity on that
is that it doesn't always mean that it's something that feels
good, but you just know in your heart and soul that it's going
to bring you closer to peace. Like, oh, this is something I'll
(13:46):
have to go through. This is something I'll need to
learn. But I know, I know lifting this
weight is going to get me to thegoal that I want of having these
really nice biceps doesn't always feel good what you're
going through, right? So I found that question is my
lighthouse, so to speak, in terms of really helping me
(14:06):
evaluate as I'm looking at data,for instance, and say, Oh my
gosh, I am sabotaging myself. I don't think I'm going to do
good at this, this speech or workshop or keynote.
I have to stop and say, are these thoughts bringing me
closer to peace or further away?Well, answer from me is further
away now. Is there truth in something I
(14:29):
could do different? Yeah.
I think you need to block two more hours of rehearsal on your
calendar and you need to go through the outline about two
times to make sure it's really tight and articulating the
message that you want them to walk away, away and do those
things bring me closer to peace?Yes.
Are they maybe going to be task driven and take some time and
(14:50):
mental power? Yes.
Is that helpful? Yeah, no, I I agree.
And in my experience, I find that the stricter a negative
thought is that's the that's thethe sabotaging self doubt.
Whereas if it's gentleness, oh, I need like you're saying I need
to practice it a little more. If it if those those more subtle
things are the are the healthy awareness.
(15:11):
Yes, yes, I absolutely think so.And, and, and where I think it
gets conflated is that often times there could be a glimmer
of truth in the stricter thought.
But when we think through, you know, how God and light operates
it, it's gentle, right? It usually it doesn't come at
you like that. That's dark energy, right?
(15:33):
Or Satan or whatever you want tocall it, right?
So that's dark energy. And so we need to be careful
which energy we're attaching ourour truth to.
Yeah. Cool.
Kendra, I've heard you say that the real impact of a leader is
based on humility. Can you expand on that?
Yeah, I think we're all tired ofsmoke and mirrors.
(15:55):
Culturally, I think we're at a third.
I'm sure not just what's going on globally, but if we just look
at leaders and even look at company and monopolies and
things going on around the world, the corporate scale as
well as, you know, global and government scale, I think we're
really wanting humility. We don't expect someone to be
(16:17):
perfect, but we just want to know that we're getting true.
And I think post pandemic, I think just because all of things
that transpired, I think people are just, you know, doubtful.
And now unfortunately, we're living in this world that's very
divided, like, oh, you're here or here.
And you and I both understand the power of oneness.
(16:37):
And so that makes it hard, right?
It's like, oh, OK, we can just, we just have to start being the
light and being positive and allthose things.
So I think as we look through the next generations of leaders,
I think humility and authenticity, Andy, are
something that have been a requirement for a long time.
Like even if you think back to tribal people and population,
indigenous cultures and how theyoperate.
(17:00):
And we lost it along the way as we scaled into quote, UN quote
corporate business and what we expect of people.
If you look a politician, like what we expected them like no
one's ever going to be perfect. Like that's kind of, that's
really real ridiculous that we ever thought someone was going
to be perfect, you know, in order to be an exposition.
And so I, I think we're hopefully dialing more towards
(17:23):
an era where humility and authenticity and the, the
willingness to be vulnerable andshare true, accept mistakes, not
be ego driven is going to be even more important.
And then layered on top of it, we have Jen AI.
So what is going to differentiate leaders from what
(17:45):
Jen AI can do, which is just, you know, tasks.
Here's how I'm going to delegate.
Here's our the ideas, here's thestrategic plan.
I mean, at some point, Jen AI, it's already pretty close to
being able to do that. But what will differentiate a
per leader is their EQ, right? Is their ability to lean in and
say, oh, Andy, great job on the work, but how are you feeling?
(18:06):
What can I do to help support you and your career growth?
Those kinds of conversations that many leaders are still not
having. Is emotional intelligence
something that is an innate scale or isn't?
Or is it something that's learnable for everybody?
So there's different schools of thought on it.
I'm at the school of thought that it is something that's
learnable. I believe we're all born with
(18:27):
it. It's innate.
It's just how much you were brained and programmed to turn
it off as a child, right? I, I mean, if you look at a
baby, they're very emotionally intelligent.
They're very aware of their thoughts and feelings, and then
they take action based on that and what they want to do.
Now one would say that if you look at the composites of EQ
(18:48):
that their impulse control is probably very low because they
think something, feel it, and then they do it right away.
But those things come with livedexperience.
So the one thing I really like about the psychometric
assessment for EQ that is untrueor any other psychometric
assessment is that you can actually work on a composite or
a a certain quality like empathyor impulse control or stress
(19:10):
tolerance and you can actually see it move.
You can actually change your test results.
Whereas a lot of the other psychometric assessments are
behavior based. And they'll say, oh, Andy,
you're an ENTJ and you're alwaysgoing to be.
And so I think that that is veryempowering for leaders and, and,
and people to be able to understand that it's a snapshot
in time. That's the result.
(19:32):
And that this is the skill that if I choose to lean into and
grow, I. So Kendra, you mentioned your
podcast earlier, The Unworthy Leader.
What inspired you to create thatand how do people react to
Unworthy being in the title? So I, I unworthiness has been my
story for a long time. I think it's something again
(19:52):
from, you know, trauma informed background all through childhood
and then just further patterned and, and reinforced through 20s
and somewhat into my 30s. And then it got better.
But then it would show up in pockets and I just got better at
hiding it. Even though I was really
successful in my day job inside,I still just felt like I was in
(20:14):
a lot of inks. And so Fast forward till.
I don't know. Last summer I'd already had this
idea of doing a podcast and I had kind of played around with
the name, and I've been advised against it because most podcasts
you want to name the positive, right?
If you think of duality, you don't want to name it the thing
(20:35):
people don't want to be. You want to name it the thing to
be. You know what they are because
they're whole and complete or the thing may aspire to be.
And so I had branding experts and marketing experts say, oh, I
don't know that you should do that.
You should call it the confidentleader or something else.
But you know, to the point of knowing our truth.
I meditated on it. I sat with her for a long time.
(20:58):
I journaled and I said, no, thisis the title.
This is the title. About a month later, I ended up
with strechacopterous pneumonia,turned to septic shock.
It was in respiratory failure atthe beginning of liver and heart
failure and was really sick, obviously almost died, Had this
(21:19):
sort of NDE type experience in the hospital and three or four
days later come out. And it was that experience where
I realized two things. One was that I was so stubborn
that I had your test how worthy I am to be here and try to
(21:40):
leave. And God said, no, you're, you're
here. And I thought, wow, I can't
believe I've been so stubborn tomy whole life that I had to go
through something that crazy to actually now believe I'm worthy
of being here and that I have a purpose.
If I'm not here by chance, I'm here on purpose.
And so I said I absolutely have to launch this podcast because I
(22:02):
want to share this message and Iwant to normalize this because I
feel like so many people can relate to this on different
levels, whether it's past or present or contextual or or
omnipresent, whatever it is. And so I felt like I that whole
experience, the purpose of it was to call me to do this.
And people have written me back that I've asked to be on the
(22:24):
show and they say, well, tell mewhat you mean by the Unworthy
leader, because I think they're nervous about it identifying
their brand with it. And I get that.
And so I acknowledged that and Isaid, yeah, this isn't for you.
That's fine. However, I will tell you that
the people that have come on have been the people who are
more open and willing to say, you know what?
Yeah, I felt these things. And those are the exact guests I
(22:47):
want. I I don't really want someone
who's going to come on and shareplatitudes of yeah, I felt
doubt, but not really be willingto share the whole truth.
That's what I'm trying to get away from.
Yeah, and in in case people aren't familiar with NDE that's
near death experience and you seeing how that you know you you
(23:09):
put yourself through that to prove your worthiness very much
aligns with with my history of suicide attempts and I keep
after let's just check one more time.
Let me try to get out of here, make sure I'm supposed to be
here and you know that that's I'm well, I said it was was did
you need to test your worthinessjust the one time?
Well, I had contemplated suicidewhen I was younger on two
(23:33):
different occasions. Nothing as significant as yours,
thank goodness, where I actually, you know, went through
with the act or whatnot. The first one, I was about 10
years old and I, I was going through a significant time with
bullying, but it was also a timewhen my dad was threatening for
(23:53):
full custody and there was a lotof abuse going on in that
household. So it was just really rough for
me. And I think I just felt
completely alienated by some of her personal.
I guess people call them norms, but they're, they're, they're
not very compassionate tactics going on in the cliques.
And so I remember, you know, holding a knife to my wrist in
(24:15):
the kitchen and I was putting some pressure.
It was starting to get red, but it wasn't bloody.
And then my mom walked out of her room.
Obviously I hadn't thought through this very well and thank
goodness. And I pulled it away.
And then, you know, and then I, I, I think, you know, if I think
back on that moment, I think it was just sort of this larger
knowing voice came in that said,don't just just don't do that.
(24:38):
So I feel very grateful that, that, you know, I felt like it
was divine intervention on both instances.
The the later one when was when I was undergoing a sexual
harassment lawsuit, which was just awful and rough.
And I had happened to also go through ACL surgery that was not
recovering well. And now what I know about
somatics and everything else I said, well, my right knee, I
(25:00):
mean, all this like this makes total sense, right?
The mask, go inside everything. You know, knees are about
movement going forward and life and everything.
And so I was also on, you know, the medication they give you and
I don't think I was reacting very well to it, but I didn't
feel that. And so I was just like, and
luckily at that time a friend called me and knew something was
(25:22):
wrong. And luckily I was honest and I
said, OK, you need to come pick up this bottle.
And so they came and got it. So nothing, you know, as extreme
as, as what you've been through,Andy.
But I think there were two otherterms where I felt like I tested
it. And when I look back in
hindsight, God wanted to keep mehere for some reason.
Now I know why. Yeah, I just want to throw
(25:43):
something there and suicidal thoughts, attempts.
It's not a competition. I, I, I don't want to be
considered. Oh, I'm better at that than
anyone. Like that is not the thing.
So having the thought once in your life, it can be a horrible,
horrible experience. I'm glad you saw the truth and,
and listen to those voices and, and saw your worthiness because
(26:06):
you know, this goes back to kindof the discussion about thoughts
of, of fraud. I find that only the worthiest
people question their worth. That's right.
Yeah. It's right because we have such
I, you know, I would say consciousness, social awareness,
I need to help. I need to actually have purpose.
(26:27):
And it means a lot to us that we're actually self actualized.
And if we're not, we feel like abroad, right?
So I'm going to change the tone a little bit.
I I recently came across a 20 year old journal and it was from
the first time I worked with a coach and he had me describe and
draw a picture of of my gremlin of my darkest voice and it
(26:50):
looked like Danny DeVito as the Penguin.
So I want that made me think about this.
So if imposter syndrome had a voice, what would it sound like?
Well, it, I'll say this, it doesn't know compassion, it
doesn't know love. It doesn't have your highest
good or interest of heart and itdoesn't hold grace.
(27:15):
And so I can tell you what you know what it doesn't have.
Now in terms of what it does have, it can, it can, it's
usually always just, it's very critical.
It, it always assumes the worst possible scenario.
And it it, it's judgment. If I was to put it into one
word, it's pure judgment from a place of mockery, belittlement,
(27:40):
and disempowerment. Now, what the boys actually
sounds like depends on each individual.
Some people, when you really do the work, it's like, oh, that's
my mother, that's my father, that's my grandmother.
That's my stepmother. That's that teacher I had in
second grade. That's my best friend that I had
in high school. So it can, it can vary on terms
(28:02):
of like sound, but in terms of its vibration and tone and
energetic blueprint, I'll call it, it's never of and for the
highest good of you, it's, it's right.
I always like to call it. It's like the wedge of Satan.
It's the wedge of darkness that finds a little spot to get in
there. And then that's when it starts
to do its work. Does anything stand out for you
(28:22):
as a ridiculous thing you told yourself in the past that now
you can laugh at? Oh jeez, there's so many.
I mean, one that may not seem relative, but it comes up
actually quite a bit is I alwaysloved animals and I'd always
thought about being a vet, but because I didn't always have the
(28:43):
healthiest mindset, I never thought I was going to be smart
enough to get into that school. So I didn't even try.
So here I am about 25 and then high tech working, and I was at
this point in my life where I was kind of starting to question
like, am I doing what I love andyou know what's going on?
That's how I thought about goingback to that school.
(29:05):
And so I got my diploma for my Bachelor of Science from where I
went to college. I got all the paperwork ready
and I was starting to apply. And then I heard this voice in
my head say, Andra, you're so dumb.
Why would you want to try to go back to school now?
You're 25. You wouldn't even be out of
school and be able to become a vet until you're probably almost
(29:26):
30. By then you're going to be so
old. Like, what are you even
thinking? And I laugh at that now because
now I understand, you know, hereI am 50 and I'm like, that was a
blip in time, you know, like, but here was this voice trying
to sabotage and, and, and convince me that I was not
adequate to go after this dream of caring for animals.
(29:50):
Enter Is there a practice or a program or a book that has
really helped you that you wouldlike to share?
Oh my gosh, I there's so many Andy.
And I think like many of us, we kind of find a hybrid that like
a little bit of everything that works for us.
The one thing that I think has worked the most for me is
(30:12):
somatic is being able to really pause and quiet and and start to
feel into like your body and what is going on.
Not just the thought, but the thought is usually connected to
something in your body. And even if it is only up here
starting to get curious and ask it questions about, OK, what
(30:34):
color are you? And if you were to have it be a
shape, what shape are you and what is you know, what is the
red furball want to tell me? Because when you start to
dissociate it like that, it becomes easier to not only hear
what's going on, but not be as emotionally impacted by it.
And I found so many raw fruit and just impeccable wisdom come
(30:58):
to me through those those conversations and relief has
been on the other side of it. So I would say from like a
trauma informed and foster thought model, that would really
be what I would say would help me the most.
But obviously there's meditation, there's generally a
(31:21):
lot of times you, but even like you can do inner child
journaling with the adult, you know, self, you can do the same
with imposter, right? So your right hand is your, your
higher self and you're, you know, you're God born, you know,
self. And then your left hand would be
OK, these imposter thoughts. And then you allow them to have
(31:41):
an exchange and, and sometimes what you'll find is that
imposter thought is just a defiant child that wants
attention. So they're tipping the chair,
they're throwing the food, and they're angry because of
whatever they've experienced as their child.
And I'll offer that it's right, Right.
And so they're angry. And because we're taught to
(32:03):
suppress all these things and not give it attention, then the
older we get there, we start to say, oh, I feel still thinking
about when I was 4, like, why can't I just get over that?
But if you really give it some time to do it and the journaling
is a great way to do it, you just start to realize that them
tossed their thought is often just, you know, this 4 year old
kid that just wants a little attention.
So it's throwing ice cream across the road.
(32:25):
So. What is one thing that you wish
more men knew? Well, I think I started by
saying that the worth isn't always tied to productivity,
performance, and the pressure tohold it all together.
I am that that your value isn't what in what you do.
Although you can talk about selfactualization and Maslow's,
(32:47):
Maslow's hierarchy, that's a different conversation, but it's
more about who you are like as is human being who you are.
And, and I think a lot of, like I said, men find themselves
defining who they are by what they do.
And that's an easy thing to do, especially because we want to be
(33:08):
the change we want to see. And so when you start getting
those kinds of idioms and whatnot, it, it makes it really
complex. But I, I, I would say that
that's number one. And then the next thing is that
vulnerability is not a weakness,it's a strategy.
It's not to be overused, right? It's supposed to be used with
deliberateness and precision, and it's not to be manipulated.
(33:31):
But when used appropriately within context, it has so much
power to open up relationships and conversations in a room.
And if you're really after influence and leadership and
building deep relationships, whether it be with your team or
family, that's where it starts because that's when fight safety
(33:54):
kicks in. And then actually people are
open to sharing thoughts and ideas.
And that's how we become a better people, a better culture.
And that's where innovation lives in the technology realm.
Kendra, what's the best way for people to connect with you?
Well, they can certainly find meon my website, which is Kendra
dahlstrom.com. There's a contact button there
(34:17):
with a variety of ways to contact me whether or not if you
want to talk about me facilitating a workshop, you
want one-on-one coaching, you want team coaching, you want a
keynote, it's all there. You can also find me on Spotify.
You can listen to our podcast there and it's also published on
YouTube under the Unworthy Leader Podcast.
(34:37):
And I also have presents on Instagram and LinkedIn.
But I would say that the main ways to get a hold of me are
probably my website with the contact button or LinkedIn.
Awesome, Kendra, I'm so glad. So I was recently guest on your
podcast. I'm glad we connected and have
been have been having continuingthis conversation on both of our
platforms because as you said, it's a very needed one.
(34:58):
And let's say it's a worthy discussion to talk about
worthiness. Right.
Yeah. Well, I mean, and your shirt
says it all, right? And I know you're the king of
vulnerability. So I love that we were able to
connect on this because I think the world needs more people like
you that are willing to stand upand say that, you know,
vulnerability and masculinity don't have to be mutually
(35:19):
exclusive. This is something worth telling
ourselves and it's not helping us as a people or an individual.
Yeah, that's why I love, you know, you're saying
vulnerability is not a weakness but a strategy.
And I often say that vulnerability and authenticity
are superpowers that men, too many men, ignore and have been
taught otherwise. So yeah, keep making a lot of
(35:39):
noise. Yeah, Thank you taking.
That tree of unworthiness and see who drops out.
Yeah, exactly. And I think between the two of
us, we can change the culture togo move away from zero sum
thinking like, like I have to bea leader, but it has to be the
cost or myself and my humanness,which is vulnerability, which is
authentic. Thanks so much.
(36:02):
Thanks for joining us, everyone.Please visit realmenfeel.org and
see the blog post for this episode.
We'll have all the various linksand resources discussed.
Wherever you're discovering RealMen Feel, please subscribe,
follow, like, share this episodewith someone, post a review or
comment. If you don't know where you want
to go, it is impossible to get there.
If that's the case for you, I invite you to book a free
Clarity call with me. Visit theandygrant.com/talk.
(36:26):
We'll explore what you want, what's in your way, and what you
can do about it. Until next time, be good to
yourself.
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