September 5, 2025 • 33 mins
Transforming Firefighter Wellness
Real Men Feel host Andy Grant converses with Robbie Nebergall, a veteran firefighter and founder of the Reclaim fitness program. Robbie discusses the physical and mental toll that the firefighting profession can take, breaking down the stigma surrounding mental health, and how his program aims to transform the health and well-being of firefighters. He addresses the cultural resistance to change within the fire service and underscores the importance of community, emotional resilience, and continuous fitness standards.
Robbie also shares personal anecdotes that inspired his mission to improve firefighter wellness and outlines his vision for a healthy, sustainable career in firefighting.
00:00 Introduction to the Warrior Mindset
00:21 Meet Robbie Nebergall: Firefighter and Fitness Coach
01:16 The Realities of Firefighting: Mental and Physical Toll
05:16 Changing the Fire Service Culture
17:13 Reclaim: A Program for Firefighters
20:40 Redefining the Warrior Mindset
23:20 Challenges and Future of Fire Service
31:15 Conclusion and Contact Information
Connect with Robbie
Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/robbienebs
SKool Community — https://www.skool.com/reclaim-your-life-3729/about
YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/@ReclaimFitnessGroup
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Join me and connect with other like-minded men in the
Authentic AF Community | http://realmenfeel.org/group
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
#RealMenFeel ep 369
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The true warrior. Is not somebody who performs
well, it's somebody who has mastery over themselves.
It is somebody who. Realizes that the real battle
is. Within that, the real struggle
is within and to address that it's not what happens in the
world around us it. Is how we.
Respond to that. Hello and welcome to Real Men
(00:23):
Feel, I'm your host Andy Grant. Today we're diving into the
heart of service, strength and self-care with a man who knows
all three inside and out. Robbie Nebergall is a veteran
firefighter, fitness coach, martial artist and founder of
Reclaim, a lifestyle based program helping firefighters
transform their health and reclaim their lives.
Robbie has seen first hand how the job can grind you down.
(00:45):
And what it takes to build yourself back up.
We talked about smashing the stigma around mental health,
bringing change to a culture that is harming men, and what it
means for firefighters to thrivein retirement because not enough
of making it there. And hey, if you're looking for a
space to get real and connect with others doing the inner
work, join my free community, Authentic AF at
(01:06):
realmenfield.org/group. Let's do it.
Hello Robbie, and welcome to Real Men Field.
Hey, thanks for having me man. So Robbie, did you always want
to be a? Firefighter, you know, honestly,
I, I didn't, but I did have an uncle who was in the fire
service and for a long time, youknow, he was encouraging me to
(01:27):
maybe look into it. It wasn't until later on that I
actually kind of took that. Seriously.
I I. I.
I went down a lot of different roads.
Before I arrived. At being a.
Firefighter, but every job that I've had.
Up to this point, did have the common theme of like in some
way, shape or form being of. Service.
So that was. That was the common denominator,
(01:49):
and then eventually I started listening to him.
And did your experiences match any of the hype that your uncle?
Laid out for you. You know, it's kind of like with
anything, right? Like the grass is.
Always is always. Greener you know what what you
expect something to be. It's not usually as glamorous as
you imagine. There are some things that I
(02:10):
will take with me for life that have been overwhelmingly
positive. And then just like anything
else, like any other. Job, The stuff that you do go
through, the stuff that weighs. On you and the stuff.
That you would you? Never would have known to expect
unless you did. It is is, you know what plays
(02:31):
into the equation there. So yeah.
And I imagine it's like that with with any job where you just
think, oh, it's going to be so amazing.
And then like, of course it comes along, comes with the
territory. There are these things that you
don't expect and that that can be detrimental.
And and you've been in fire service for 25.
Years. Is that right?
I have not been in the fire service for 25.
Years. That's usually the.
(02:51):
Extent that most. Firefighters go to SO.
A normal career in the fire service.
Is. Usually 20 to 25 years and then
they they go to retirement. Right, a lot of firefighters
either work for. You know, a pension or something
like that. Now there's some variance in
there like, but 20 to 25 is the normal.
I've been in the fire service for four years, personally.
(03:12):
Looking at some of those people with with the 20 year plus
career, what sort of toll do yousee this job take on on them
physically and mentally? I mean, that's a, that's a
loaded question, man. And.
The the toll. Physically and mentally can be.
Drastically. Different depending on how that
(03:33):
person takes care of themselves in the course of that 20 or 25.
Years, but the job. On its own.
You could. You could probably do.
Everything perfectly and you're still going to have some years
off of your life in the process.That being said, you can lean
(03:54):
into some of those things even more.
If you don't have the appropriate coping mechanisms,
you don't. Have the appropriate.
Routines you don't have the structure in.
Place to protect yourself the. Cost of making it to your
retirement, if you even make it at all.
And that is, that is a. Statement that should be.
Taken with gravity like. There's a lot of.
Firefighters that don't even make it to their retirement, you
(04:17):
want to talk? About the toll.
To often their life. If.
They lean into some of these negative.
Habits that we have. Around like coping with what?
We see what we deal with the. Sleep deprivation, The chronic.
Stress the fatigue so. Physically and mentally, you
know. The the rate of suicide.
(04:38):
Among firefighters is much higher than in the general
population. In fact, I can say personally,
in just the four years I've beenin the fire service, there have
been 3 suicides in neighboring departments since I started.
Those are the ones. That are actually talk because
they. Not every time it happens is it
made public or made known. That that was the.
(04:59):
Case. Those are just the ones where
people were transparent about it, where departments were
transparent. About it the.
Physical and mental toll if you don't take care of yourself.
This job will take. Everything from you.
If you allow it to. Was there a particular moment
that you decided you wanted to do something, kind of change
this culture? There were two situations, right
(05:20):
that compounded 1. Started before it was.
It was very shortly before I started.
At my fire department. We actually had a.
Captain at my fire department who?
Passed away of cardiac. Arrest in the middle of the
night and the crew that I currently serve on, they were
the ones that found him. That that.
(05:42):
Person would have been my captain had this situation not
occurred and the. Truth is, it was.
Like one of those things, it's something that people don't see
coming. It's one of those things that
compound over years because you wouldn't look at this guy and
think like, oh, he's. Terribly out of shape.
Oh, he's all this. You know, from all accounts and
(06:02):
from what my crew has told me and what I've.
Watched. In them over the.
Years as that. Situation has affected them.
Right. They they.
Went out to cut, you know, they got a call in the middle of the
night and they were waiting for him to come out into the trucks
and he didn't come out. So they went to go check on him.
And the captain's dorm at this at this department is the only
(06:26):
one that is separated from the rest of the crew.
So a couple minutes had gone by and then when they went in
there, they found him face down on the ground next to his bunk.
It had passed of a cardiac arrest.
And if you know anything about firefighters, we're also
paramedics at my department. They had to.
Do CPR on him as well, right? Which it's different when it's
(06:46):
somebody that you know and I canonly imagine.
Because like I sit at the table.With these guys, every morning,
you know, you drink coffee, you get to know their families, you
get to know their stories. You spend 24 hours of time you
see them more than your family. So watching that unfold.
Shortly after I had arrived at this.
(07:07):
Department combined with that uncle that I told you.
About he passed away. Six months into his retirement
and he was the kind of guy that he loved this job so much.
He went from being a what's called the Battalion Chief, went
and retired from his department and then went and started over
at a new department working on an ambulance.
(07:28):
Again, he didn't do like a lateral transfer.
He went like very to the bottom rung, worked on an ambulance.
That's the kind of guy he was. And he did it with a smile on
his face. I never heard, I never heard
complain out of him. And six months in, you know,
again both. Of these stories widowed.
Wives, teenage children left behind and fire departments that
(07:49):
will never be the same again. So you ask.
What were the things? That started.
Some of this. It's it's the.
Recognition that, one, those things happened, but two, that
they were not unique to me or myfire department, that these
happen every day. I feel like we.
We get notified on an e-mail from like the International
(08:11):
Association of Firefighters every day that we have a line of
duty death. I get them.
I get them every other day. Every other day.
I get a a notification about a firefighter that died from
either cancer. Or cardiac arrest?
What's? Worse is that we've normalized
it. It's become so normal and so
desensitized. And one day I caught myself
(08:32):
looking at my phone and I saw another e-mail and I went, oh,
there goes another one. And I went, wait a minute.
That cannot be my response to this.
There's a human life on the other end of that headline.
I can't. I can't be so desensitized if
this. Kid, this is so.
Frequent that it's such a problem that nobody even talks
about it anymore. It just comes with the job.
(08:54):
It's just part of the job. That doesn't sit well with me
and what I'm really trying to dois change that.
Story for firefighters. And change that.
Story for the fire service so that it's.
Not normal anymore. So when you talk about the fire
service being dangerous and, andthe toll being your life, you,
you don't just mean the dangers on the job.
(09:16):
It's not all these men are dyingon calls, no.
The the danger is. The slow.
Burn in the creep over time. It's the compounding stress
mentally, physically, and emotionally.
Very, very, very few firefighterdeaths and firefighter injuries
(09:37):
even come from unavoidable fire ground operations, like somebody
fell through a roof or fell through the, you know, fell into
the basement. Had to be safe, couldn't it
happens. Don't get me wrong, those things
happen. It's just very small percentage,
overwhelmingly the number one cause of line of duty.
(10:02):
Deaths is cardiac arrest. Usually on the fire ground so
somebody be inside fighting the fire.
Sudden cardiac arrest. Stress Obesity over 50.
Percent of firefighters. Are either overweight or.
Obese and. That plays a large.
(10:23):
Role into the comorbidities thathappen on these in these
situations. And so the real danger isn't the
fire ground, it's the fire. Culture.
It's. The culture we have around food,
it's the culture we have around supporting each other.
So you. Also have to take.
This dogmatic. Group of people and we have.
(10:45):
Pride, Pride in what we do. But sometimes it manifests.
And when somebody's in trouble? The.
Support isn't always there, and the attitude is.
You're supposed to be. Gritty and salty and resilient.
So suck it up and shut up. And So what happens is the real
(11:06):
danger. Is us to our.
Own our own habits, our own brothers and sisters.
The people that we show up with every day.
And those habits when you compound and zoom out over the
course of. Decades, right?
These things and you you compound it with chronic sleep
deprivation, fatigue, stress, family life, juggling everything
(11:30):
else. You combine that with poor.
Dietary habits, poor physical. Fitness habits, you compound
that with no resources for your mental health.
I don't think we have to stretchtoo far to understand.
Why the average? Firefighter makes it six years
into their retirement before dying.
That's the average 6. Years into a retirement after
25. Years of service average.
(11:53):
Amount of time that a. Firefighter stays alive.
What do you? Think is the biggest roadblock
to to changing this culture to to to decreasing the stigma
around admitting something's wrong and supporting each other
I. Think it's going to happen
slowly, and I think it's going to take enough people talking
about it and realizing it. But what what we have to
(12:15):
understand is that in the fire service, things are very slow to
change. There's a saying among
firefighters, it's kind of widely accepted.
Firefighters hate two things. They hate change and they hate
the way that things are. And when it comes to new
(12:35):
technology, new ideas, new mentalities, the fire service is
generally behind in adopted. They're they're on the late end
of that bell curve in whatever area like technology.
I'll give you an example. The SCBA stands for
self-contained Breathing Apparatus.
It's the. Air pack that we.
Wear arguably the most life saving piece of equipment that
(12:56):
we wear that enables us to go into highly toxic environments
and do the job that we need to do.
Those have been around since the70s.
They were not widely mandated until the late 90s, early
2000's. The most life saving piece of
it. We're talking like.
There's no argument that this isjust the.
(13:18):
Like without a doubt will save you years of your life.
If you were to implement it. 30 years is what it took.
To for the most important piece of equipment that we use 2530
years. So take a group of people that
are. Extremely resistant to change
and very, very steeped in tradition.
(13:41):
That's. Probably the biggest part is
like the. Steeping in tradition and that
pride that translates to. This is a part of our.
Culture and our culture is unique and it's special and if
you do anything to change any ofthat, it's it's not just an
attack on that piece what they've.
What we? Feel is that it's an attack on.
(14:02):
All parts of the culture. So being able.
To separate it out and. Say, hey, how can we?
Keep what's good. But to answer your question,
whoever. Talks about this stuff.
Whether it's me or somebody elsein the.
Fire Service. Advocating for these things.
They they have to. They themselves have to be
resilient because the backlash. That.
(14:24):
Whether I've personally receivedat my own fire department or
online, you know. Or just for for.
Talking about differences like those people, they have to stay
strong and they have to stay together.
I've made it a really big point to make connections with other
people in this space, share camaraderie amongst ourselves
(14:46):
and to. Do it together because.
At the end of the day, I think if we can combine into a
movement. Of firefighters.
Who are working towards these things?
It goes back to the old saying that if you want to go fast, go
alone, but if you want to go far, then go together.
Boy, it stuns and saddens me that men can be so attached to
(15:11):
tradition even when that tradition is killing them.
Yeah. And it's, I mean that's.
That's the stake, but it's hard.To think of it in those terms
because. You have to be.
Able to zoom out and look at thelaunch and look at like what's
happening from a big like the from the top of the mountain,
what is happening? What do I see all we know right
(15:33):
now a lot of. Firefighters like life is so
hard. The only thing that they can
even be bothered to think about is how do I get through the next
shift? How do I get through?
You know the the next overtime. How do I get?
How do I? Get to the end of the next day
and survive. And so some would even take the
(15:55):
stake. Like yeah, I got.
Into this, knowing that it wouldend my life early.
But that's how much the tradition is worth to me.
And that. Is where we will.
That is where I will draw the. Line and say no.
Like. I don't.
I don't believe there's no valuein tradition.
But I, I. Better understand what?
(16:16):
The purpose is if the if the sake of.
Keeping a tradition is. For the sake of.
Tradition itself, then we might we might need to evaluate.
That. If there's a purpose and a value
and it brings people together and there's some kind of reason
that actually like translates toa positive benefit to the crew.
Or the the people. Practicing that tradition then
(16:36):
OK, great. But times change and it's it the
fire service isn't unique enoughthat we are impervious to the
passing of time as the in the world as it changes and we have.
To art we pride. Ourselves on being masters of
adaptation. We pride ourselves on the
ability to improvise, adapt and overcome.
(16:58):
Very quickly. Unless it comes to changing the
culture or changing our own personal habits.
Well, so I certainly see the need and all of your experiences
that went into creating your program reclaim so, so tell me a
bit about that. Reclaim is a program that has
been designed. For firefighters, that.
(17:23):
Are struggling and need help. With.
Solving some of the. Habits that we.
Have around health and fitness that the job make very difficult
and the reason there are other firefighter programs, many if
not all of them lean into burnout more than anything and I
don't see as a solution to the longevity that we need inside.
(17:46):
Of this career. Something you can actually do
with consistency over the courseof 20 or 25 years.
Something that doesn't consume your life.
Something that doesn't take. The attitude that the.
Only things you should do with your time is work out and show
up on shift. Because I have to believe that
if. If you're going to do this
career for 20 or 25. Years that you should have the.
(18:08):
Opportunity to enjoy it too. It shouldn't just be gritting
your teeth the entire time. There has to be more to life
than just those two things that make life worth living, and
that's usually the trade. Off that, firefighters feel like
they. Have to make.
It's like. I can either spend time with my
kids or my family, or I can go to the gym, and nine times out
(18:30):
of 10, probably more, they're going to choose the other option
that has more value. But my point is that what?
If you could do both, what if the?
Fitness industry is wrong. What if this idea that you have
to work? Out six, seven times a week.
Eat 6 meals a day, which is unrealistic.
For the lifestyle of a firefighter who's already.
(18:51):
Burnt out. By the job.
What if you could significantly reduce that and see better
results than you ever have before?
What if you could maintain your health by having a smart?
Structure. Rather than just adding more
volume and more burnout. So this program, it's for the
firefighter that wants to. Realize that the real.
Flex is being able to. Keep up with their kids.
(19:14):
Or their grandkids, to not have the job rob them of all the life
and longevity, to not retire broken, To have a space where
they can feel and operate and perform.
To their absolute best. And not have.
To sacrifice all. The other things in the
meantime. You talked about the importance
(19:36):
of community earlier. Does community play a part in in
Reclaim It? Does this and that's exactly the
reason that I have chosen to host Reclaim on a community
based platform to. Keep everybody motivated
together. Working towards the same things
with the same values and it goesback to that statement like we
(19:58):
are stronger together so we bring.
All of the firefighters who. Are on board with this message
into one space to communicate, to connect, to learn together,
and to benefit from each other's.
Growth to talk about. Their own journeys and what has
worked for them, what hasn't worked for them into a communal
(20:19):
space and the connections that I've seen grow just from that
have been amazing. Whether it's like the
firefighters with their coaches or whether it's the firefighters
with each other. So there's definitely a strong
warrior culture and and all emergency services.
(20:41):
What can be done to redefine that warrior mindset to include
Wellness and emotional strength and and acknowledging struggles?
I think we have to. Redefine.
Maybe not you and me, but like as a culture in the fire service
or first responders in general. People think that being a
warrior is a physical performance.
(21:03):
We need to redefine what that. Is a true warrior.
Is not somebody who performs well, it's somebody who has
mastery over themselves. It is somebody.
Who realizes that the real battle is?
Within that, the real struggle is within and to address.
That to address that. Point that it's not what happens
(21:29):
in the world around us. It is how we.
Respond. To that it is the degree.
Of self mastery. That we have over our.
Thoughts, our emotions, our actions, our behaviors and
because we have been called. To a higher level of service it.
Demands and the. People that we serve, they
(21:52):
deserve to have people with that.
Level of dedication showing up to help them when they need it
most. So to be a.
Real warrior is much more of an internal battle.
The true self mastery isn't about.
The chaos of the world It is about the chaos of your.
(22:14):
World internally and how you canmove through the ebb and flow
of. That.
How you can still learn to respond well.
I've said this to. The clients that I've worked
with. I said if.
I could boil down everything in this program into one sentence.
I would say it's learning how torespond well.
Because what we are is first. Responders, we're not.
(22:36):
First reactors A. Reaction is spontaneous.
It's without thought it. Happens like a chemical reaction
to two molecules collide and guaranteed outcome a first
responder. They decide they.
Decide how they're going to showup.
(22:57):
It's looking at the world and saying you don't get to decide
who I'm going to be today. That's the path.
Of the Warrior, it's surviving astorm in a rowboat, which the
only way you can do. That you keep the water out of
the boat. Storm can be rolling around you,
doesn't matter. You keep the water out of the
(23:18):
boat, you'll stay afloat. When we first spoke, you
mentioned that they were leadersin the fire service that say
things like if anyone has a problem in the job, they
shouldn't be in this job, and that if they use peer support
services, they were seen as weaklings.
Are you seeing younger generations of firefighters be
(23:39):
more open to their own health and emotion?
Well, emotional Well. Being I do see I do.
See more acceptance in the the younger generations coming in
there. There is like in any other
culture or community, there's, there's going to be generational
discrepancies and. Yes, there there is people who
(24:01):
who say. That you know if you if you have
a problem then there's the door right or even attempt to disband
some of the peer supporter pure fitness teams that that's their
goal and generationally and likewhat I wish could be imparted on
them is that most of the time when when.
(24:22):
People have that attitude, they have it.
Until up until a certain point, it usually changes, but then
it's too late. I think with the information age
that we live in, the informationthat's at our fingertips with
ChatGPT and. All the other resources that are
(24:44):
out there. There's a little bit more of a
educated population coming in, more open, have seen the results
and maybe some of the people that have some of these
mentalities are people in their family or people that they've
witnessed and they're probably taking up the mentality.
That. I don't.
I don't want to be like. That or I've.
Seen the results of this first hand so it's my It's my
(25:09):
perception that with time this is improving.
Or at least. That the baseline coming in
isn't so. Drastically low.
Now the problem is that they might come in with those beliefs
of the fire service being steeped in tradition.
It's the you start on the very end of the totem pole.
So the people making the decisions.
(25:29):
The people with these attitudes.Are generally more so in
positions of authority and you can lead from.
Can lead from the bottom just like you can lead from the top,
but when it's coming down from the top it makes it may.
It really, really slows. Down your tailwind.
Yeah, if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in
(25:50):
Firehouse culture. What would that be?
If I could change one thing, it would be having continuing
fitness standards for firefighters and the reason I
chose. That specifically is because.
It will and does have implicate implications on like the mental.
(26:13):
State the physical. Awareness, the emotional
well-being, it's not the only piece of the equation, but it
has a positive benefit. But one of the things that is a
big sticking point for me, and in fact, I get in, I get in a
lot of trouble for saying this on my I get in a lot of hot
water for this, but I've been very.
Clear, very vocal that I believethere should be.
Continuing fitness. So like what?
(26:34):
What is the problem when I say that for anybody that's
listening and maybe doesn't understand fire culture?
There is a test. To get hired generally.
It's called the C pat. Now, federally speaking, after.
You get hired. For the next 25 years, there are
no physical requirements to keepyour job, none.
So when I say I would like to see continuing physical
(26:57):
standards and by the way, beforeI move on, some departments take
it upon themselves to implement their own, but they don't have
to. And that's that's the other
thing like. The best firefighters I've ever
worked with. Held themselves to a much higher
standard than their department ever held them to or their
cities or their jurisdictions ever held them to.
(27:19):
And so those departments exist, but there's only about 30%
nationwide, 30% have any kind ofcontinuing standard and that
standard since it's not. Like.
Federally defined can be whatever they want it to be and
they can pencil whip and they doso like within that 30% like how
much is actually adequate and how much is actually
(27:39):
standardized so. To just have a culture where.
This is taken seriously and thatit's important, and that's a
piece of the equation as. Seriously, as we take.
Fire ground operations as. Seriously, as we take.
Everything else that we do on the on the job, if I could
change one thing, it would just be the.
The idea? And the level.
(28:00):
Of priority that physical. Fitness is put in the fire
service. Itself to a degree.
Where it's actually something that.
You are expected to. Perform graded on and.
Evaluated and ideally. What does a healthy?
Retirement for someone coming out of the fire service look
like. Best case scenario would be
(28:22):
coming out of. The fire service.
With your relationships intact, family, friends, this is one of
the things you see in the fire. Service people like Retreat.
Into the culture, so much so that like they stop being able
to identify with anybody outside.
Of the fire service rate of divorce is very high the.
(28:43):
Best case scenario is coming outwith the mental and emotional.
Capacities to still. Have maintained your
relationships. With the.
People that you care about most and.
To retire without a body that. Has been broken and worn down by
injury and and misuse. To actually live through 30 or
(29:07):
40 years. After your retirement.
To be. Able to get down on the ground
and play with your kids or your grandkids.
To be able to. Go on that hike even at the age
of 556570, rather than be stuck in place, immobile in a body
that's full of pain. Just a healthy, resilient person
(29:29):
with their relationships intact.Robbie.
What's one thing you wish that more men knew?
I wish that more men knew. That.
Emotional resilience Mental strength does not equate and is
not synonymous with weakness or softness.
We go back to being this topic. Of of a warrior.
(29:52):
Having control over yourself how?
Like self mastery means having understanding, it means that
instead of bottling it away because it's quote UN quote.
Weak look. It in the eye, acknowledge it
for what it. Is.
And then take control of it. More men need to understand that
(30:13):
emotional resilience comes from first struggling with those
emotions, which you you won't have an opportunity to do if you
push it down, then getting familiar, getting comfortable
with those, and then still responding well if you want to
be a leader, if you want to be. A caretaker.
(30:36):
A provider. That means having that emotional
maturity that comes from the experience of acknowledging and
working through those emotions and those mental states.
More men need to. Realize that it's.
OK to feel it's not. OK to act, however.
(30:59):
You want, but that's the whole point, right?
Is that you? Decide.
You decide that. Where that line is between who's
the person I'm going to. Be today.
And I'm the only one that gets. To decide that.
Also, Robbie, I want to thank you for your work as a
firefighter and your work and trying to save firefighters from
(31:24):
themselves from this distorted. Tradition.
That that's that's ending lives prematurely.
So Robbie, what's the best way that people can get in touch
with you and learn more about the program or claim?
Yes, there's a. There's a couple different ways,
I'll just I'll make it simple. The best way would be.
On Instagram, my handle. Is at Robb i.e.
(31:47):
And EBS, very simple. Robbie Nebs, you find me there.
I'm the firefighter fitness coach.
From there you can also find links to book consultation calls
or find my free school community.
That I do have for firefighters as well.
To give them like the baseline knowledge to help get on top of
some of these things that we. Discussed today and.
You can also find me on. YouTube I do.
(32:09):
My own podcast revolving around fire firefighter fitness topics
that's Reclaim Fitness Group on on YouTube.
Robbie, thanks again for sharingyour experience, your time with
us. And yeah, I I hope you reach a
lot more guys. This is important and really
appreciate giving us a peek inside this culture which I did
(32:32):
not realize was still still sucha strangling culture for for
men. That was Robbie Nebergall with a
powerful reminder that being strong isn't about hiding pain.
It's about. Confronting it whether you're a.
First responder or just someone looking to reclaim your health,
purpose and peace, Robbie's message hits home.
And remember, you don't have to do this.
Work alone. Join us.
(32:53):
In the authentic AF community atrealmenfield.org/group.
Until next time, be good to yourself.
The true warrior. Is not somebody who performs
well, it's somebody who has mastery over themselves.
It is somebody who. Realizes that the real battle
is. Within that, the real struggle
is within and to address that it's not what happens in the
world around us it. Is how we.
Respond to that. Hello and welcome to Real Men
(00:23):
Feel, I'm your host Andy Grant. Today we're diving into the
heart of service, strength and self-care with a man who knows
all three inside and out. Robbie Nebergall is a veteran
firefighter, fitness coach, martial artist and founder of
Reclaim, a lifestyle based program helping firefighters
transform their health and reclaim their lives.
Robbie has seen first hand how the job can grind you down.
(00:45):
And what it takes to build yourself back up.
We talked about smashing the stigma around mental health,
bringing change to a culture that is harming men, and what it
means for firefighters to thrivein retirement because not enough
of making it there. And hey, if you're looking for a
space to get real and connect with others doing the inner
work, join my free community, Authentic AF at
(01:06):
realmenfield.org/group. Let's do it.
Hello Robbie, and welcome to Real Men Field.
Hey, thanks for having me man. So Robbie, did you always want
to be a? Firefighter, you know, honestly,
I, I didn't, but I did have an uncle who was in the fire
service and for a long time, youknow, he was encouraging me to
(01:27):
maybe look into it. It wasn't until later on that I
actually kind of took that. Seriously.
I I. I.
I went down a lot of different roads.
Before I arrived. At being a.
Firefighter, but every job that I've had.
Up to this point, did have the common theme of like in some
way, shape or form being of. Service.
So that was. That was the common denominator,
(01:49):
and then eventually I started listening to him.
And did your experiences match any of the hype that your uncle?
Laid out for you. You know, it's kind of like with
anything, right? Like the grass is.
Always is always. Greener you know what what you
expect something to be. It's not usually as glamorous as
you imagine. There are some things that I
(02:10):
will take with me for life that have been overwhelmingly
positive. And then just like anything
else, like any other. Job, The stuff that you do go
through, the stuff that weighs. On you and the stuff.
That you would you? Never would have known to expect
unless you did. It is is, you know what plays
(02:31):
into the equation there. So yeah.
And I imagine it's like that with with any job where you just
think, oh, it's going to be so amazing.
And then like, of course it comes along, comes with the
territory. There are these things that you
don't expect and that that can be detrimental.
And and you've been in fire service for 25.
Years. Is that right?
I have not been in the fire service for 25.
Years. That's usually the.
(02:51):
Extent that most. Firefighters go to SO.
A normal career in the fire service.
Is. Usually 20 to 25 years and then
they they go to retirement. Right, a lot of firefighters
either work for. You know, a pension or something
like that. Now there's some variance in
there like, but 20 to 25 is the normal.
I've been in the fire service for four years, personally.
(03:12):
Looking at some of those people with with the 20 year plus
career, what sort of toll do yousee this job take on on them
physically and mentally? I mean, that's a, that's a
loaded question, man. And.
The the toll. Physically and mentally can be.
Drastically. Different depending on how that
(03:33):
person takes care of themselves in the course of that 20 or 25.
Years, but the job. On its own.
You could. You could probably do.
Everything perfectly and you're still going to have some years
off of your life in the process.That being said, you can lean
(03:54):
into some of those things even more.
If you don't have the appropriate coping mechanisms,
you don't. Have the appropriate.
Routines you don't have the structure in.
Place to protect yourself the. Cost of making it to your
retirement, if you even make it at all.
And that is, that is a. Statement that should be.
Taken with gravity like. There's a lot of.
Firefighters that don't even make it to their retirement, you
(04:17):
want to talk? About the toll.
To often their life. If.
They lean into some of these negative.
Habits that we have. Around like coping with what?
We see what we deal with the. Sleep deprivation, The chronic.
Stress the fatigue so. Physically and mentally, you
know. The the rate of suicide.
(04:38):
Among firefighters is much higher than in the general
population. In fact, I can say personally,
in just the four years I've beenin the fire service, there have
been 3 suicides in neighboring departments since I started.
Those are the ones. That are actually talk because
they. Not every time it happens is it
made public or made known. That that was the.
(04:59):
Case. Those are just the ones where
people were transparent about it, where departments were
transparent. About it the.
Physical and mental toll if you don't take care of yourself.
This job will take. Everything from you.
If you allow it to. Was there a particular moment
that you decided you wanted to do something, kind of change
this culture? There were two situations, right
(05:20):
that compounded 1. Started before it was.
It was very shortly before I started.
At my fire department. We actually had a.
Captain at my fire department who?
Passed away of cardiac. Arrest in the middle of the
night and the crew that I currently serve on, they were
the ones that found him. That that.
(05:42):
Person would have been my captain had this situation not
occurred and the. Truth is, it was.
Like one of those things, it's something that people don't see
coming. It's one of those things that
compound over years because you wouldn't look at this guy and
think like, oh, he's. Terribly out of shape.
Oh, he's all this. You know, from all accounts and
(06:02):
from what my crew has told me and what I've.
Watched. In them over the.
Years as that. Situation has affected them.
Right. They they.
Went out to cut, you know, they got a call in the middle of the
night and they were waiting for him to come out into the trucks
and he didn't come out. So they went to go check on him.
And the captain's dorm at this at this department is the only
(06:26):
one that is separated from the rest of the crew.
So a couple minutes had gone by and then when they went in
there, they found him face down on the ground next to his bunk.
It had passed of a cardiac arrest.
And if you know anything about firefighters, we're also
paramedics at my department. They had to.
Do CPR on him as well, right? Which it's different when it's
(06:46):
somebody that you know and I canonly imagine.
Because like I sit at the table.With these guys, every morning,
you know, you drink coffee, you get to know their families, you
get to know their stories. You spend 24 hours of time you
see them more than your family. So watching that unfold.
Shortly after I had arrived at this.
(07:07):
Department combined with that uncle that I told you.
About he passed away. Six months into his retirement
and he was the kind of guy that he loved this job so much.
He went from being a what's called the Battalion Chief, went
and retired from his department and then went and started over
at a new department working on an ambulance.
(07:28):
Again, he didn't do like a lateral transfer.
He went like very to the bottom rung, worked on an ambulance.
That's the kind of guy he was. And he did it with a smile on
his face. I never heard, I never heard
complain out of him. And six months in, you know,
again both. Of these stories widowed.
Wives, teenage children left behind and fire departments that
(07:49):
will never be the same again. So you ask.
What were the things? That started.
Some of this. It's it's the.
Recognition that, one, those things happened, but two, that
they were not unique to me or myfire department, that these
happen every day. I feel like we.
We get notified on an e-mail from like the International
(08:11):
Association of Firefighters every day that we have a line of
duty death. I get them.
I get them every other day. Every other day.
I get a a notification about a firefighter that died from
either cancer. Or cardiac arrest?
What's? Worse is that we've normalized
it. It's become so normal and so
desensitized. And one day I caught myself
(08:32):
looking at my phone and I saw another e-mail and I went, oh,
there goes another one. And I went, wait a minute.
That cannot be my response to this.
There's a human life on the other end of that headline.
I can't. I can't be so desensitized if
this. Kid, this is so.
Frequent that it's such a problem that nobody even talks
about it anymore. It just comes with the job.
(08:54):
It's just part of the job. That doesn't sit well with me
and what I'm really trying to dois change that.
Story for firefighters. And change that.
Story for the fire service so that it's.
Not normal anymore. So when you talk about the fire
service being dangerous and, andthe toll being your life, you,
you don't just mean the dangers on the job.
(09:16):
It's not all these men are dyingon calls, no.
The the danger is. The slow.
Burn in the creep over time. It's the compounding stress
mentally, physically, and emotionally.
Very, very, very few firefighterdeaths and firefighter injuries
(09:37):
even come from unavoidable fire ground operations, like somebody
fell through a roof or fell through the, you know, fell into
the basement. Had to be safe, couldn't it
happens. Don't get me wrong, those things
happen. It's just very small percentage,
overwhelmingly the number one cause of line of duty.
(10:02):
Deaths is cardiac arrest. Usually on the fire ground so
somebody be inside fighting the fire.
Sudden cardiac arrest. Stress Obesity over 50.
Percent of firefighters. Are either overweight or.
Obese and. That plays a large.
(10:23):
Role into the comorbidities thathappen on these in these
situations. And so the real danger isn't the
fire ground, it's the fire. Culture.
It's. The culture we have around food,
it's the culture we have around supporting each other.
So you. Also have to take.
This dogmatic. Group of people and we have.
(10:45):
Pride, Pride in what we do. But sometimes it manifests.
And when somebody's in trouble? The.
Support isn't always there, and the attitude is.
You're supposed to be. Gritty and salty and resilient.
So suck it up and shut up. And So what happens is the real
(11:06):
danger. Is us to our.
Own our own habits, our own brothers and sisters.
The people that we show up with every day.
And those habits when you compound and zoom out over the
course of. Decades, right?
These things and you you compound it with chronic sleep
deprivation, fatigue, stress, family life, juggling everything
(11:30):
else. You combine that with poor.
Dietary habits, poor physical. Fitness habits, you compound
that with no resources for your mental health.
I don't think we have to stretchtoo far to understand.
Why the average? Firefighter makes it six years
into their retirement before dying.
That's the average 6. Years into a retirement after
25. Years of service average.
(11:53):
Amount of time that a. Firefighter stays alive.
What do you? Think is the biggest roadblock
to to changing this culture to to to decreasing the stigma
around admitting something's wrong and supporting each other
I. Think it's going to happen
slowly, and I think it's going to take enough people talking
about it and realizing it. But what what we have to
(12:15):
understand is that in the fire service, things are very slow to
change. There's a saying among
firefighters, it's kind of widely accepted.
Firefighters hate two things. They hate change and they hate
the way that things are. And when it comes to new
(12:35):
technology, new ideas, new mentalities, the fire service is
generally behind in adopted. They're they're on the late end
of that bell curve in whatever area like technology.
I'll give you an example. The SCBA stands for
self-contained Breathing Apparatus.
It's the. Air pack that we.
Wear arguably the most life saving piece of equipment that
(12:56):
we wear that enables us to go into highly toxic environments
and do the job that we need to do.
Those have been around since the70s.
They were not widely mandated until the late 90s, early
2000's. The most life saving piece of
it. We're talking like.
There's no argument that this isjust the.
(13:18):
Like without a doubt will save you years of your life.
If you were to implement it. 30 years is what it took.
To for the most important piece of equipment that we use 2530
years. So take a group of people that
are. Extremely resistant to change
and very, very steeped in tradition.
(13:41):
That's. Probably the biggest part is
like the. Steeping in tradition and that
pride that translates to. This is a part of our.
Culture and our culture is unique and it's special and if
you do anything to change any ofthat, it's it's not just an
attack on that piece what they've.
What we? Feel is that it's an attack on.
(14:02):
All parts of the culture. So being able.
To separate it out and. Say, hey, how can we?
Keep what's good. But to answer your question,
whoever. Talks about this stuff.
Whether it's me or somebody elsein the.
Fire Service. Advocating for these things.
They they have to. They themselves have to be
resilient because the backlash. That.
(14:24):
Whether I've personally receivedat my own fire department or
online, you know. Or just for for.
Talking about differences like those people, they have to stay
strong and they have to stay together.
I've made it a really big point to make connections with other
people in this space, share camaraderie amongst ourselves
(14:46):
and to. Do it together because.
At the end of the day, I think if we can combine into a
movement. Of firefighters.
Who are working towards these things?
It goes back to the old saying that if you want to go fast, go
alone, but if you want to go far, then go together.
Boy, it stuns and saddens me that men can be so attached to
(15:11):
tradition even when that tradition is killing them.
Yeah. And it's, I mean that's.
That's the stake, but it's hard.To think of it in those terms
because. You have to be.
Able to zoom out and look at thelaunch and look at like what's
happening from a big like the from the top of the mountain,
what is happening? What do I see all we know right
(15:33):
now a lot of. Firefighters like life is so
hard. The only thing that they can
even be bothered to think about is how do I get through the next
shift? How do I get through?
You know the the next overtime. How do I get?
How do I? Get to the end of the next day
and survive. And so some would even take the
(15:55):
stake. Like yeah, I got.
Into this, knowing that it wouldend my life early.
But that's how much the tradition is worth to me.
And that. Is where we will.
That is where I will draw the. Line and say no.
Like. I don't.
I don't believe there's no valuein tradition.
But I, I. Better understand what?
(16:16):
The purpose is if the if the sake of.
Keeping a tradition is. For the sake of.
Tradition itself, then we might we might need to evaluate.
That. If there's a purpose and a value
and it brings people together and there's some kind of reason
that actually like translates toa positive benefit to the crew.
Or the the people. Practicing that tradition then
(16:36):
OK, great. But times change and it's it the
fire service isn't unique enoughthat we are impervious to the
passing of time as the in the world as it changes and we have.
To art we pride. Ourselves on being masters of
adaptation. We pride ourselves on the
ability to improvise, adapt and overcome.
(16:58):
Very quickly. Unless it comes to changing the
culture or changing our own personal habits.
Well, so I certainly see the need and all of your experiences
that went into creating your program reclaim so, so tell me a
bit about that. Reclaim is a program that has
been designed. For firefighters, that.
(17:23):
Are struggling and need help. With.
Solving some of the. Habits that we.
Have around health and fitness that the job make very difficult
and the reason there are other firefighter programs, many if
not all of them lean into burnout more than anything and I
don't see as a solution to the longevity that we need inside.
(17:46):
Of this career. Something you can actually do
with consistency over the courseof 20 or 25 years.
Something that doesn't consume your life.
Something that doesn't take. The attitude that the.
Only things you should do with your time is work out and show
up on shift. Because I have to believe that
if. If you're going to do this
career for 20 or 25. Years that you should have the.
(18:08):
Opportunity to enjoy it too. It shouldn't just be gritting
your teeth the entire time. There has to be more to life
than just those two things that make life worth living, and
that's usually the trade. Off that, firefighters feel like
they. Have to make.
It's like. I can either spend time with my
kids or my family, or I can go to the gym, and nine times out
(18:30):
of 10, probably more, they're going to choose the other option
that has more value. But my point is that what?
If you could do both, what if the?
Fitness industry is wrong. What if this idea that you have
to work? Out six, seven times a week.
Eat 6 meals a day, which is unrealistic.
For the lifestyle of a firefighter who's already.
(18:51):
Burnt out. By the job.
What if you could significantly reduce that and see better
results than you ever have before?
What if you could maintain your health by having a smart?
Structure. Rather than just adding more
volume and more burnout. So this program, it's for the
firefighter that wants to. Realize that the real.
Flex is being able to. Keep up with their kids.
(19:14):
Or their grandkids, to not have the job rob them of all the life
and longevity, to not retire broken, To have a space where
they can feel and operate and perform.
To their absolute best. And not have.
To sacrifice all. The other things in the
meantime. You talked about the importance
(19:36):
of community earlier. Does community play a part in in
Reclaim It? Does this and that's exactly the
reason that I have chosen to host Reclaim on a community
based platform to. Keep everybody motivated
together. Working towards the same things
with the same values and it goesback to that statement like we
(19:58):
are stronger together so we bring.
All of the firefighters who. Are on board with this message
into one space to communicate, to connect, to learn together,
and to benefit from each other's.
Growth to talk about. Their own journeys and what has
worked for them, what hasn't worked for them into a communal
(20:19):
space and the connections that I've seen grow just from that
have been amazing. Whether it's like the
firefighters with their coaches or whether it's the firefighters
with each other. So there's definitely a strong
warrior culture and and all emergency services.
(20:41):
What can be done to redefine that warrior mindset to include
Wellness and emotional strength and and acknowledging struggles?
I think we have to. Redefine.
Maybe not you and me, but like as a culture in the fire service
or first responders in general. People think that being a
warrior is a physical performance.
(21:03):
We need to redefine what that. Is a true warrior.
Is not somebody who performs well, it's somebody who has
mastery over themselves. It is somebody.
Who realizes that the real battle is?
Within that, the real struggle is within and to address.
That to address that. Point that it's not what happens
(21:29):
in the world around us. It is how we.
Respond. To that it is the degree.
Of self mastery. That we have over our.
Thoughts, our emotions, our actions, our behaviors and
because we have been called. To a higher level of service it.
Demands and the. People that we serve, they
(21:52):
deserve to have people with that.
Level of dedication showing up to help them when they need it
most. So to be a.
Real warrior is much more of an internal battle.
The true self mastery isn't about.
The chaos of the world It is about the chaos of your.
(22:14):
World internally and how you canmove through the ebb and flow
of. That.
How you can still learn to respond well.
I've said this to. The clients that I've worked
with. I said if.
I could boil down everything in this program into one sentence.
I would say it's learning how torespond well.
Because what we are is first. Responders, we're not.
(22:36):
First reactors A. Reaction is spontaneous.
It's without thought it. Happens like a chemical reaction
to two molecules collide and guaranteed outcome a first
responder. They decide they.
Decide how they're going to showup.
(22:57):
It's looking at the world and saying you don't get to decide
who I'm going to be today. That's the path.
Of the Warrior, it's surviving astorm in a rowboat, which the
only way you can do. That you keep the water out of
the boat. Storm can be rolling around you,
doesn't matter. You keep the water out of the
(23:18):
boat, you'll stay afloat. When we first spoke, you
mentioned that they were leadersin the fire service that say
things like if anyone has a problem in the job, they
shouldn't be in this job, and that if they use peer support
services, they were seen as weaklings.
Are you seeing younger generations of firefighters be
(23:39):
more open to their own health and emotion?
Well, emotional Well. Being I do see I do.
See more acceptance in the the younger generations coming in
there. There is like in any other
culture or community, there's, there's going to be generational
discrepancies and. Yes, there there is people who
(24:01):
who say. That you know if you if you have
a problem then there's the door right or even attempt to disband
some of the peer supporter pure fitness teams that that's their
goal and generationally and likewhat I wish could be imparted on
them is that most of the time when when.
(24:22):
People have that attitude, they have it.
Until up until a certain point, it usually changes, but then
it's too late. I think with the information age
that we live in, the informationthat's at our fingertips with
ChatGPT and. All the other resources that are
(24:44):
out there. There's a little bit more of a
educated population coming in, more open, have seen the results
and maybe some of the people that have some of these
mentalities are people in their family or people that they've
witnessed and they're probably taking up the mentality.
That. I don't.
I don't want to be like. That or I've.
Seen the results of this first hand so it's my It's my
(25:09):
perception that with time this is improving.
Or at least. That the baseline coming in
isn't so. Drastically low.
Now the problem is that they might come in with those beliefs
of the fire service being steeped in tradition.
It's the you start on the very end of the totem pole.
So the people making the decisions.
(25:29):
The people with these attitudes.Are generally more so in
positions of authority and you can lead from.
Can lead from the bottom just like you can lead from the top,
but when it's coming down from the top it makes it may.
It really, really slows. Down your tailwind.
Yeah, if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in
(25:50):
Firehouse culture. What would that be?
If I could change one thing, it would be having continuing
fitness standards for firefighters and the reason I
chose. That specifically is because.
It will and does have implicate implications on like the mental.
(26:13):
State the physical. Awareness, the emotional
well-being, it's not the only piece of the equation, but it
has a positive benefit. But one of the things that is a
big sticking point for me, and in fact, I get in, I get in a
lot of trouble for saying this on my I get in a lot of hot
water for this, but I've been very.
Clear, very vocal that I believethere should be.
Continuing fitness. So like what?
(26:34):
What is the problem when I say that for anybody that's
listening and maybe doesn't understand fire culture?
There is a test. To get hired generally.
It's called the C pat. Now, federally speaking, after.
You get hired. For the next 25 years, there are
no physical requirements to keepyour job, none.
So when I say I would like to see continuing physical
(26:57):
standards and by the way, beforeI move on, some departments take
it upon themselves to implement their own, but they don't have
to. And that's that's the other
thing like. The best firefighters I've ever
worked with. Held themselves to a much higher
standard than their department ever held them to or their
cities or their jurisdictions ever held them to.
(27:19):
And so those departments exist, but there's only about 30%
nationwide, 30% have any kind ofcontinuing standard and that
standard since it's not. Like.
Federally defined can be whatever they want it to be and
they can pencil whip and they doso like within that 30% like how
much is actually adequate and how much is actually
(27:39):
standardized so. To just have a culture where.
This is taken seriously and thatit's important, and that's a
piece of the equation as. Seriously, as we take.
Fire ground operations as. Seriously, as we take.
Everything else that we do on the on the job, if I could
change one thing, it would just be the.
The idea? And the level.
(28:00):
Of priority that physical. Fitness is put in the fire
service. Itself to a degree.
Where it's actually something that.
You are expected to. Perform graded on and.
Evaluated and ideally. What does a healthy?
Retirement for someone coming out of the fire service look
like. Best case scenario would be
(28:22):
coming out of. The fire service.
With your relationships intact, family, friends, this is one of
the things you see in the fire. Service people like Retreat.
Into the culture, so much so that like they stop being able
to identify with anybody outside.
Of the fire service rate of divorce is very high the.
(28:43):
Best case scenario is coming outwith the mental and emotional.
Capacities to still. Have maintained your
relationships. With the.
People that you care about most and.
To retire without a body that. Has been broken and worn down by
injury and and misuse. To actually live through 30 or
(29:07):
40 years. After your retirement.
To be. Able to get down on the ground
and play with your kids or your grandkids.
To be able to. Go on that hike even at the age
of 556570, rather than be stuck in place, immobile in a body
that's full of pain. Just a healthy, resilient person
(29:29):
with their relationships intact.Robbie.
What's one thing you wish that more men knew?
I wish that more men knew. That.
Emotional resilience Mental strength does not equate and is
not synonymous with weakness or softness.
We go back to being this topic. Of of a warrior.
(29:52):
Having control over yourself how?
Like self mastery means having understanding, it means that
instead of bottling it away because it's quote UN quote.
Weak look. It in the eye, acknowledge it
for what it. Is.
And then take control of it. More men need to understand that
(30:13):
emotional resilience comes from first struggling with those
emotions, which you you won't have an opportunity to do if you
push it down, then getting familiar, getting comfortable
with those, and then still responding well if you want to
be a leader, if you want to be. A caretaker.
(30:36):
A provider. That means having that emotional
maturity that comes from the experience of acknowledging and
working through those emotions and those mental states.
More men need to. Realize that it's.
OK to feel it's not. OK to act, however.
(30:59):
You want, but that's the whole point, right?
Is that you? Decide.
You decide that. Where that line is between who's
the person I'm going to. Be today.
And I'm the only one that gets. To decide that.
Also, Robbie, I want to thank you for your work as a
firefighter and your work and trying to save firefighters from
(31:24):
themselves from this distorted. Tradition.
That that's that's ending lives prematurely.
So Robbie, what's the best way that people can get in touch
with you and learn more about the program or claim?
Yes, there's a. There's a couple different ways,
I'll just I'll make it simple. The best way would be.
On Instagram, my handle. Is at Robb i.e.
(31:47):
And EBS, very simple. Robbie Nebs, you find me there.
I'm the firefighter fitness coach.
From there you can also find links to book consultation calls
or find my free school community.
That I do have for firefighters as well.
To give them like the baseline knowledge to help get on top of
some of these things that we. Discussed today and.
You can also find me on. YouTube I do.
(32:09):
My own podcast revolving around fire firefighter fitness topics
that's Reclaim Fitness Group on on YouTube.
Robbie, thanks again for sharingyour experience, your time with
us. And yeah, I I hope you reach a
lot more guys. This is important and really
appreciate giving us a peek inside this culture which I did
(32:32):
not realize was still still sucha strangling culture for for
men. That was Robbie Nebergall with a
powerful reminder that being strong isn't about hiding pain.
It's about. Confronting it whether you're a.
First responder or just someone looking to reclaim your health,
purpose and peace, Robbie's message hits home.
And remember, you don't have to do this.
Work alone. Join us.
(32:53):
In the authentic AF community atrealmenfield.org/group.
Until next time, be good to yourself.
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