October 17, 2025 • 36 mins
Healing the Father Wound: Kevin Palmieri's Journey to Self-Worth
In this powerful episode of Real Men Feel, host Andy Grant welcomes Kevin Palmieri, founder and co-host of the Next Level University podcast. Kevin shares his transformative experience of meeting his father for the first time at age 27 and how it shaped his life. From dealing with imposter syndrome in his youth to overcoming rock bottom moments and contemplating suicide, Kevin's journey exemplifies resilience and personal growth.
They delve into the profound impact of growing up without a father, redefining self-worth, and the importance of vulnerability for men. Whether you're grappling with your own father wound or seeking to build a life you're proud of, this conversation offers valuable insights and inspiration. Join the Authentic AF Community for more support and connection at realmenfeel.org/group.
00:00 Meeting My Dad at 27: A Life-Changing Experience
00:24 Introduction to Real Men Feel Podcast
00:37 Kevin Palmieri's Journey: From Success to Contemplating Suicide
01:29 Growing Up Without a Father: Kevin's Childhood Reflections
04:14 The Impact of Masculinity and Self-Worth
06:43 The Unexpected Facebook Message
09:36 Meeting My Dad: The Emotional Encounter
13:30 Reflecting on the Father Wound and Personal Growth
16:33 Kevin's Rock Bottom: The Breaking Point
17:37 Hitting Rock Bottom
18:31 A Year on the Road
19:14 Starting the Hyperconscious Podcast
19:51 Struggling with Mental Health
21:17 The Turning Point
22:49 The Pain-Pleasure Pendulum
24:21 Redefining Self-Worth
27:21 Lessons from 2000 Episodes
29:57 The Power of Vulnerability
34:19 Connecting and Growing
Connect with Kevin
Website — https://www.nextleveluniverse.com/
Facebook — https://www.facebook.com/kevin.palmieri.90/
Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/neverquitkid/
LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-palmieri-5b7736160/
YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBo--QvPHbGOrO13C0Xyybg
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Join me and connect with other like-minded men in the
Authentic AF Community | http://realmenfeel.org/group
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
#RealMenFeel ep 375
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So you finally met your dad whenyou were 27?
Yes. How did that feel?
Oh, scary, overwhelming, resolute, life changing, and
necessary. If I had to put it to 5 words,
yeah it it was all of those things encapsulated in one
experience and it changed my life forever.
(00:21):
To this day, I do believe it's one of the best things I ever
did. Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel. I'm your host, Andy Grant, here
to remind you once again that itis OK to be human.
Today we're diving into self worth, the father wound, and
what it really means to create alife you're proud of.
My guest is Kevin Palmieri, the founder and Co host of the Next
Level University podcast. Kevin once had all the success
(00:44):
he thought he wanted, yet it left him unfulfilled, even to
the point of contemplating suicide.
Since then, he's transformed hislife, producing over 2000
episodes, reaching listeners in 170 countries, and becoming a
role model for men looking to grow beyond pain into purpose.
He also carries A deeply personal story about growing up
without his dad and finally meeting him as an adult.
(01:06):
We'll explore that today. And before we jump in, if you're
a man who's tired of going it alone, come join us in
thefreeauthenticafcommunity@realmanfield.org/group.Let's do it.
Hello Kevin, and welcome to REALMen Feel.
Andy, thank you so very much forhaving me.
I'm excited to chat. It is a breath of fresh air on a
Friday to jam with Someone Like You.
(01:27):
My. Awesome.
Well, let's get to it. When we first spoke, you shared
with me that you grew up withoutknowing your father.
So I wonder, could you take us back to what life was like
growing up without your dad? Yeah, it's always hard because
people say what was it like? And I say it was normal because
for me that that was normal. But one of the stories that
really I think paints a very specific picture of how I felt,
(01:49):
it was first grade, 4th grade, Idon't know, I was young.
And the first day of school, forsome reason, you go around and
you introduce yourself and you say, this is what my mom does
for work. This is what my dad does for
work. And my mom was in the medical
field. And I remember thinking, I'm
just going to, I got to make something up for my dad.
So I remember just making up construction worker and I think
(02:10):
what not having my dad around when I was younger did to me is
it allowed me, unfortunately, toadopt imposter syndrome because
I didn't want anybody to know that secret.
Because if somebody knew that secret, they might make fun of
me. And I was made fun of it times,
even though kids didn't really know what they were doing.
So I always felt a sense of one,I'm different than everybody
(02:30):
else. Two, I'm going to be broken
because of this. And then three, as I got into my
maybe early teens, later teens, for some reason, my friends
families always try to adopt me and bring me into their dinner
parties and their trips and their vacation.
So that was always a little weird for me, feeling kind of
(02:51):
like a a charity case, for lack of better phrasing.
It's funny, you know, thinking about I never, I don't recall
having that spin, but I, so my parents divorced when I was 5
and I, I, yeah, I was at the adopted and pulled into dinners
and vacations and things and yeah, I, I just thought people
liked me. So I didn't know.
Same, same. And but, yeah, one thing that
(03:12):
struck me just now, you said youyou knew you were broken.
So there was something about Dadbeing missing that that made you
think you were off, that that was wrong somehow.
Yeah, I felt like everybody elsehas.
I won't say positive male role models because in retrospect, I
don't know how positive they were, but I assumed I'm going to
(03:35):
be the one who ends up being a loser.
I'm going to be the one who endsup being a failure.
I used to have a conversation with two of my best friends at
the time and we voted on who wasmost likely to end up in jail.
And it was me. I was the one who was going to
end up in trouble and end up in jail because a lot of people in
my family had gone to to jail and they there was drug
addiction and and alcohol addiction.
(03:56):
So I think it created an identity for me that I didn't
realize I was adopting long before I was capable of knowing
who I really was in the world, right.
And I think that's a common thing.
It's we look at our environment and our environment in many
cases dictates who we think we're supposed to be.
And unfortunately, that was that's what mine dictated to me.
Right, so you're raised by your mom and your grandmother.
(04:18):
How do you think that shaped your view of masculinity and
your own self worth? My mom is very masculine, but
one of my favorite stories of mymom ever is somebody spit at my
grandmother at a bar and my mom threw them over the bar and beat
them up. And I love that.
Let's shout out to my mom for that.
So my mom is relatively masculine there.
(04:39):
There was not a lot of femininity in my household.
So I think it it helped you witha couple things.
One, there was no yelling. There was no screaming, there
was no negativity, there was no violence.
I've had a pretty positive household, all things
considered, so at least that wasa model for me.
But in terms of masculinity, I don't.
(05:00):
I didn't really have any great constructive examples.
I was close with my uncles, but they were funny and jokey and
they didn't take almost anythingseriously.
So that never really that never really attached to me as as what
you should be. I think I did what a lot of
people did. I looked at movies and I looked
at wrestlers and that is who I thought I was supposed to be.
(05:23):
I wanted to be a professional professional wrestler.
I wanted to be a stuntman. So I think I wanted to convey or
exude what confidence looked like on television.
I thought that was masculinity. I think the problem is I was so
focused on looking good and looking confident externally and
not building actual self belief and self worth.
(05:45):
And I think self worth is being comfortable with who you are as
a person. So I think for a lot of my life
I hid behind the fact that I wasraised by my mom and my
grandmother. I hid behind the fact that we
had a 2 bedroom apartment even though there was three of us.
So the nights my mom didn't workthird shift, she would sleep on
the couch. I that was just normal.
And I, I think I tried to hide behind what normal was because I
(06:06):
was afraid what people would think.
And I think that massively affected my myself worth and
myself belief. So you finally met your dad when
you were 27? Yes.
How did that feel? Oh.
Scary, overwhelming, resolute, life changing and necessary.
(06:28):
If I had to put it to 5 words, yeah it it was all of those
things encapsulated in one experience and it changed my
life forever. To this day, I do believe it's
one of the best things I ever did.
And was this something that had you sought this out, was this
your creation, was it circumstance, synchronicity, you
know? It was a Saturday morning, I was
off of work. I was sitting on my recliner and
(06:51):
I was going through my Facebook messages.
And I didn't realize at the timeif somebody messages you and
they're not friends with you, itgoes to a special folder,
message request folder. Didn't know that.
I was going through that folder and I saw this message and you
can only see the first line. That's how they get you.
Hey, Kevin, I'm Robin. I'm your father's girlfriend.
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
(07:12):
Nope, Nope. Not today.
It's Saturday. I got plans later.
This is not going to derail my day, but I got curious.
I got very, very curious, so I opened it up.
Hey, Kevin, I'm Robin. I'm your father's girlfriend,
and he's been seeing you on Facebook.
It looks like you're doing really well.
If you'd ever want the opportunity to meet, he would
really enjoy that. And then here's the thing that
really messed me up. The message was from three years
(07:33):
prior, so I didn't even know if he was still alive.
I didn't know if they were together.
I didn't know if I didn't know any of the circumstances.
But I remember I threw my phone on the floor.
I fell on the floor. I started bawling my eyes out.
And I texted one of my friends and I said, hey, my my dad
messaged me and he wants to see me.
And they said, are you going to do it?
(07:54):
And I said, I think I have to. I know I have to.
I don't want to, but I think this is the thing that I need to
do. And they said, do you want me to
come with you? And I said, I appreciate it, but
this is one of those things I just have to do on my own.
So it was very much accidental. It was very much coincidence
that I was going through it. Realistically, if I didn't find
(08:14):
that message, I never would havemet my dad because he didn't
have my phone number. He didn't know where I lived.
I didn't even know what he looked like.
I didn't even know his real name.
So I was never going to find him.
So it was very coincidental. And it happened at a time in my
life where I was very hungry forgrowth and I was very hungry for
evolution and awareness. So it all lined up.
(08:34):
Yeah, it all lined up really nicely.
So I messaged them back and said, yeah, let's do it, Let's
meet halfway. And in a couple of weeks later,
that was that was the plan. So you didn't even know his
name? So your your parents were never
married? Did did your dad know that you
existed when you were? Born.
He knew that, yeah, he knew thatI existed.
But he was very much, from what I've gathered over the years,
(08:55):
never seen the movie Liar, Liar with Jim Carrey.
It was very much that he would say he was going to come get me.
He never would. He would say he was going to
show up. He never would.
He just never was there. And he never, there was no
improvement in that. And I also believe he was in a
motorcycle gang and he was heavyinto drugs and alcohol.
So there was a lot going on at that time.
(09:17):
So, yeah, never married. I was definitely an accident.
And I don't think there was muchplanned beyond what happens when
this child is born. And that's, yeah, that's, that's
ended up being what happened after I was born, yeah.
So you you do connect, have you stayed in contact since then or
was it just a one meeting and done?
So I I drive down to this diner,he meets me and I remember I got
(09:42):
there first. I sat down at at the booth
looking out towards the window and I remember thinking I don't
know what he looks like. So when he gets here, he's going
to have to find me and this is going to be even more awkward
than I, I realized some guy walks by the window somehow I
knew, I don't know how to explain it.
It was just one of those knowings that's my dad came in,
(10:03):
found me, sat down. I was stoic.
I was, I was locked up. You're not going to get any
emotion out of me. He was crying a couple times and
it was it was interesting. It was very interesting moment
for me apologizing us catching up and trying to essentially
collapse 27 years into 27 minutes.
But I had a moment where I looked across the table and I
(10:27):
felt bad for him. I felt bad because I had done
more work in my 27 years than hehad done in his sixty.
That was one thing. The second thing is I think I
was able to depersonalize it forthe first time ever where I
realized he didn't wake up one day and say I'm going to try to
mess this kids life up. He had his own stuff going on
and do I think I would have donebetter?
(10:48):
I like to think so. And I also can have empathy for
the fact that he didn't. And then I think it gave me
forgiveness. Like, OK, this is something I
never thought I was going to do.I'm checking this off the bucket
list. I I want to be open to
forgiveness, not necessarily forhim, but for me.
I've made him this villain in myhead and he doesn't, he can't
even handle the power, right? So I shouldn't give it to him.
(11:11):
So I ended up seeing him a couple times after and it got to
this weird place where he would just call me randomly on a
Thursday and get mad if I didn'tanswer the phone.
Even though I'm out here doing this and I'm building the
business and right I'm I'm not exactly the type of person you
just call on a whim. I don't answer my phone.
It's always on silent. That was that became resistance.
(11:32):
He could never understand why I didn't have time to go see him.
That became resistance. And eventually one day I posted
a picture on Facebook of my wifeand I and he commented, you got
to lose the mustache. That was it.
Not Oh my goodness, you and yourbeautiful wife.
Not I'm proud of you. Not I'm so proud of what you
created. You got to lose the mustache.
(11:54):
And that for me was like, OK, this is I, I can't do this.
I cannot father my father. I'm not willing to sign up for
that. So yeah, I decided essentially
to just let it die. I feel like I got what I needed.
I hope he got the closure that he needed.
I don't want to lead him on. I don't want to do what he did
to me. And honestly, I think I think
(12:14):
I'm better off knowing what I know and not having the person
in my life. So I haven't talked to him in, I
don't know, probably four years now, maybe four or five years.
At that initial meeting, you said that you were kind of
consciously stoic. You weren't going to give him
any emotion. Was that just another layer of
the defense? He dismayed.
It hurt you enough. You weren't going to let it
(12:35):
happen here. Yeah, it was.
It was. I don't think you deserve it.
Yeah, I don't think you deserve it.
I don't think you deserve it. And I can't just allow 27 years
to dissolve that quickly. I need to, I, it was ego.
It was a protector. It was what I thought I needed
to do in order to actually get through the interaction.
(12:57):
So, yeah, I, I didn't want to beemotional.
I didn't want him to know how badly I was hurt.
I didn't want him to know how much that affected my life.
I didn't want him to know the truth.
I think I didn't want him to know the truth.
And I wonder if I was emotional,if he would have been emotional.
I don't know. I don't know.
But yeah, it's it's weird when you when you imagine someone for
(13:18):
so long and then you get to see them and you realize they are
nothing like you thought they were going to be.
So I went in with an emotion, I went in with an intention.
And I think I just held on to that, probably for my safety
more than anything. Yeah, I think you're accurate
there. How has your relationship, or
lack thereof, and the meeting? How is that altered or created
(13:39):
your view of yourself as a man? I am so proud of who I've
become. I'm so proud of who I've become
just because there was a lot of,there was a lot of reasons,
there was a lot of circumstancesand there was a lot of really
easy paths I could have taken that would have ended up in any
direction. But the one I'm in one, it
(14:01):
allowed me to realize that I think I'm a better man because
my dad wasn't around. Honestly, as as heavy as that,
that is to say, I don't think having a male role model around
would have been better than not having one around based on what
I saw. And I think it's allowed me to
understand certain intricacies about myself and understand why
(14:22):
I am the way I am in certain ways and help me understand that
I actually can work through them.
Well, it's interesting. My wife said this to me today.
She said I, I don't think you give yourself enough credit for
how for most of your life you thought you were dumb and you
were useless. And now like you're extremely
smart and you can essentially figure almost anything out.
And I said, I appreciate that. That's that.
(14:43):
What a wonderful message to get first thing in the morning.
I said I appreciate that so verymuch.
So yeah, I, I'm very proud of the person I am.
And I think through that I've been able to, I've been able to
be very proud of what I've had the opportunity and the
privilege to be a part of creating.
But there's still a dark, I mean, there's still a dark side
of me that I go like when I'm atthe gym, I imagine my dad not
(15:05):
believing in me. I go to dark places when I need
to get stuff done. So there's the flowers on one
side and there's the darkness onthe other that I, I don't ever
want to lose that. I think I have such a heavy chip
on my shoulder from not having adad around and feeling like he
didn't believe in me. I want to make sure I run the
chip and the chip doesn't run me.
But I'm still leveraging that tothis day.
(15:27):
I mean, I worked 16 hours yesterday that if that chip was
not there, I just don't believe I'd be the man I am.
So taking the good with the bad and I'm very proud of what I've
been able to create from the bad, I would say.
Yeah. So it's growing up with a
physically or emotionally distant dad is often called
that, that the father wound how that impact it has on us.
And it can be the chip that drives you and turns you into
(15:50):
being a successful, well driven man focused on your own growth
and and evolution. But it also it also is a chip
that crushes some guys too. So I'm, I'm really, you know, I
want to commend you along with your wife, how you work with
what you were given so. I appreciate it.
Well, again, we're in a silo, right?
(16:11):
If you asked me seven years ago how I felt, it would not be
nearly as complete and or evolved as it is today.
So a lot of it has just been time, time, reflection,
awareness, necessity, right? So it's a, it is a very, is a
very complicated equation to overcome something like that.
And I think the equation is different for everybody, but I
do very much appreciate the lovevery much.
(16:33):
So in your 20s, you had all the trappings of success, but then I
know you had. Yeah, I'll let you share what
kind of was the rock bottom withthe breaking point for you when
you seemingly had success? Yeah, so when I was 25, I had a
very close to 6 figure. It was a six figure potential
income. We were on contracts with the
(16:53):
government and the state, so it depended on how much I worked.
There was definitely a track to get to 6 figures.
My girlfriend at the time was a model.
I was getting ready to compete in a bodybuilding show.
So I was quite literally in the best shape I will ever be.
I'll never be in that shape again.
We had just moved into a really nice apartment together.
I had a nice car, I had great friends.
I was from all external views. I was living the dream.
(17:15):
I was crushing it. But internally I was depressed,
I was anxious, I had self doubt,I had no self worth.
I felt terrible about myself. My initial rock bottom moment.
My girlfriend sat me down one time.
This was after my bodybuilding show and I was struggling bad.
After my bodybuilding show, she said, hey, I'm leaving.
(17:38):
You're just not the man that I fell in love with.
And I feel like you're not the man that can help support me and
my goals and my dreams and my ambitions.
And she was right, unfortunately.
And the thing that really helpedme figure out where I was, as
she said, I was going to leave amonth or two ago, but I was, I
was genuinely afraid if I did, you might commit suicide.
And I remember thinking, oh, good, how did we get here?
(17:59):
How did it get to this point? So that was my initial rock
bottom. She left, work got slow, so I
was struggling financially and my bills had just doubled and I
had an eating disorder for my bodybuilding show.
So in the beginning it looked like I had health, wealth and
love behind the scenes. I was unhealthy as you could be.
I was as single and lonely as you could be, and I was
(18:20):
struggling financially. Naturally, I think the the male
side of me said I'm just going to go make a boatload of money,
let me grind my face off and I'll work myself out of this
hole. So that next year I got a
promotion at my job. We proceeded to have the busiest
year we ever had and I spent 10 months living on the road,
travelling up and down the East Coast of the US for my job.
(18:42):
Monday through Friday, I'm on the road.
I get home either late Friday night, early Saturday, clothes
come out of the suitcase, into the washer, into the dryer, back
into the suitcase. That's my life for the year.
We get to the end of the year though, Andy, I crack open that
final pay stub. I made $100,000 at 26 with no
college degree. Externally, feels really good.
(19:04):
Internally, nothing shifted. So I remember thinking for most
of my life I've lived unconsciously.
The opposite of unconscious is hyperconscious.
I'm going to start a podcast called the Hyperconscious
Podcast. That's what any young man would
do at this point in his life. Let's start a podcast.
So started a podcast. I fell in love with podcasting
and very quickly I learned that this job is not what I want to
(19:27):
do. I know money is not the only
answer. I'm now checked out completely,
almost overnight. So I start calling out, showing
up late, leaving job sites early, just I don't care
anymore. But as you know, there's not a
line out the door of people saying, hey, this podcast is a
great idea. How much money do you need?
How much money can we give you so you can do a full time?
(19:49):
So I had to keep going to this job and my anxiety came back and
it was getting worse. My depression came back and it
was getting worse and eventuallyI found out that rock bottom has
a basement. I woke up in a hotel room in New
Jersey. Alarm clock went off at 5:30.
I sat up, slid to the edge of the bed lacing up my work boots.
(20:09):
And the best way to explain it is there was 10 televisions on
in my head at the same time and every single one was on a
different station and one is saying you're stuck here
forever. I was the gas station guy, I was
the guy who cleaned bathrooms athospitals.
I was the guy who just never could find a way to make good
money. Felt like I got lucky getting
(20:30):
this job. I'm never going to get this
again. If I ever left, what would my
friends say? I make so much money compared to
my friends who all have degrees and went to college and I
didn't. There's so there's significance
there. What's my family going to say?
I remember how highly my mom would talk about me to the
people at work and she used to take my car to work at times
(20:51):
because I had such a nice car. And do you really think you're
going to be a podcaster? And that was the loudest one.
Do you really think you're goingto be a podcaster?
This, there's no way this works.So in my mind, I thought to
myself, well, if I was just to take my life, I would take my
problems with me. And that was the rock bottom
sitting on the edge of the bed moment where I didn't think
there was anything else to do. Now, luckily I have positive men
(21:14):
in my life, luckily. So I messaged 1 and he's my
business partner now, the Co host of the show.
So it's worked out quite well, Iwould say.
And I said, Hey, I'm, I'm havingthese thoughts, I'm having these
feelings, I'm having these emotions.
I don't, I don't know what to do, man.
And he said a lot. But the thing I remember was
over the last couple years, yourawareness has changed a ton, but
your environments have remained the same.
(21:36):
So that was like the belief I needed.
I borrowed his belief. I borrowed his worth and I ended
up leaving that job three or four months later.
I think him and I partnered up in 2018 and we tried to figure
out how to do this podcast thingfull time.
So that rock bottom moment became so much of the fuel for
even starting and leaning into this and getting to the place
(21:59):
that we are today. But yeah, it was it was a
really, really challenging time in my life for sure.
Now, very honestly, life got harder after I left my job
because I lost all of my money and I was anxious and having
panic attacks and it was this whole thing.
But sometimes it's got to get worse before it gets better.
Why do you think that so many men have to hit rock bottom?
(22:20):
Like can you be I don't like this so I'm going to change it?
It has to be like I am. I am facing myself inflicted
demise if I don't change things.Why did it have to get so bad
for you to make that that change?
Sometimes your ego has to die before you're willing to do
things that require humility, right?
And I think for me, I was livingin such a place of ego
(22:42):
significance that I could not imagine my life without the
external accomplishments that I had.
When you, we call it the pain pleasure pendulum, when you
swing all the way to heck no, you're more likely to swing to
heck, heck yes. And the example I always use is
let's say Monday morning, you goto work and it's the worst day
you've ever had at work. One of two things happens.
(23:04):
You say, screw this, I'm out. I'm going to start looking for
other jobs. Or you go in Tuesday and it gets
a little bit better and then Wednesday, hump day, Thursdays,
Friday junior, and then Fridays,Friday, Saturday, Sunday you
work off some steam, Monday you're back.
The moment has passed, the necessity has passed, the pain
has passed. I think that's why pain is such
(23:27):
a powerful motivator. When you get to a place where
you are so deep in pain that youknow it won't pass, you know you
have to do something differently.
So I think, and I don't think that's just for men, I think
that's for humans in general. I think men are probably
statistically more stubborn. So it takes more.
But I think when you're in a really dark place, you're
willing to work, you're willing to look for light that you
hadn't been willing to in the past.
(23:49):
And I, I really think it's just because pain is the best
motivator and the best necessity.
And I think as men, we think we're supposed to handle all of
the pain and we're capable of taking it and just continuing
on. That's for you to decide out
there whether you're watching orlistening.
But yeah, I think that's why I think unfortunately, discomfort,
resistance, pain are required tochange because they're what
(24:12):
creates a necessity in the 1st place.
If it's just OK, I'm probably not going to do anything about
it, right? It just doesn't make any sense.
Has your own definition of self worth changed from your 20s to
today? I think in my mind, self worth
used to be delusional. So I know my value and I know
(24:36):
what I'm worth and I'm never going to be around people that
don't value that worth. I think that's a good direction
to move in. But I I think I thought accurate
self worth was arrogance. When I think accurate self worth
for me is humility. I'm a very valuable man,
Awesome. I can add value in many
situations. Awesome.
And I have a lot of work to do in many arenas.
(24:59):
I think that's accurate self worth.
Self worth is understanding the value of you as a human being.
And I think we are either delusionally high or
delusionally low. I don't think anybody's really
accurate. I'm not accurate.
I'm probably a little bit over. I'm probably a little bit
delusionally high right now because things are going really
well. So I think I thought it was
(25:22):
arrogance and I think I thought it was believing in my own
unique capabilities in the external world.
Now I know it's just being able to set a boundary and hold it,
being able to hold my emotional space when somebody is trying to
take it. It's way more internal than I
(25:42):
thought. I thought self worth and self
belief were the same thing. I thought they were external and
people could see them. Now I understand self worth is
way more about a feeling than itis what anybody sees.
And also, it's way easier to just punt it and abandoned it
than it is to hold. Holding self worth in a moment
is scary. It's very, very, very scary.
(26:04):
And you're the only one that canreally do that work.
And you're the only one that really knows whether or not it's
happening. So yeah, my definition has
changed a ton. But I think it's really hard to
define something you don't have yet, Right.
It's it's easy to say this is what it is until you realize,
oh, OK. No, no, this is actually what it
feels like when you have it. Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, until you have your experience, you're just
guessing. Like, is this, is this good
(26:27):
feeling? Is this, is this going fast in
this car? Is this self worth?
Is this what it is like? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well, we if it, if it feels like
it's going in the right direction, we think we're doing
it, we're doing it right. So if you go from just self
deprecation to arrogant, it feels like it's progress.
It is progress. You're moving in the right
direction. You just have gone past the
(26:48):
optimal point, right. And and I think that is life in
general. I think life is a constant
pendulum between under and over,under and over.
I used to be somebody who spent way too much money on dumb
stuff. I was way over.
Now I'm struggling to buy thingsI need because I'm so focused on
saving money. I'm under now.
There's an optimal point for allof us, self belief, self worth,
(27:11):
all of that stuff. And I just think it takes time,
experience and reflection to to get there.
And I had very little time, verylittle experience and very, very
little reflection in my mid 20s for sure.
So Kevin, with over 2000 episodes of your Next Level
University podcast, is there a most surprising thing you have
learned about men and self worthfrom from your guests?
(27:34):
That's a great question. Some of the people who have the
most healthy self worth are the ones who have gone through the
most hell to get there. There's a gentleman, his name's
Anthony Trucks, and he's played in the NFL, American Ninja
Warrior, spoken on some of the biggest stages in the world, and
he's just a good dude. Just a good dude.
(27:58):
But when you hear his story about how he got bounced around
from foster home to foster home,at one point, I'm pretty sure he
had to catch chickens in the backyard in order to eat, was
put in a dog kennel, had to lickthe bottom of people's shoes
until his tongue bled. I mean, he had overcome so much
to become a positive, healthy man.
I think there's something about that.
(28:20):
There's something about having to overcome in order to get to
the place that you want. So necessity, yeah, I don't.
I don't know if anybody just wakes up one day and says I want
to be a really good person. I don't know if it really works
that way. I think.
I think something has to happen that shakes you to the core.
And you say, I don't want to live like this.
And the way I'm living, if I continue at this trajectory, I'm
(28:42):
in a lot of trouble. I have to change, like,
everything, and I have to work through everything.
So, and sometimes the most resistance creates the highest
quality human. I would say that's, that's been
something. And then I would say this is an
interesting thing too. I was thinking of this the other
day. There's a lot of people out
there that say like bro code, you know, what happens amongst
(29:04):
Bros stays amongst Bros. I think that's a sad excuse to
just live in arrogance and live in ego.
We've had guests on the podcast in the past who we never
released the episodes because they're surrounded by people
that make their behavior OK, andthose are not my people.
I do not want you in my life. I don't want to talk to you.
(29:24):
I don't want to hear from you. I don't want to spend any time
with you. It helped me really identify who
the people I wanted to be aroundwith, who my people are and who
the people I'm just not interested in spending time
with, regardless of how much quicker that would help me be
successful. That a lot of people,
unfortunately, and especially, no, I wouldn't even say
especially men, men and women are way more focused on being
(29:46):
externally successful than character driven internally.
And that is something that jumped off the page.
You won't know who it is becausethose episodes didn't get
released, but there was a coupleof them for sure.
So Kevin, how has sharing your story publicly helped you heal?
So many of the things that I used to be nervous about talking
(30:09):
about and the things that I had shame around and my insecurities
now are not. I'm not insecure about them at
all because I've talked about them so much.
I, we were on a podcast one timewith a, her name is Toria Leto.
She's a licensed marriage and family therapist.
And I was talking about how I had AI was working through an
addiction to porn. And after the episode, Alan, my
(30:30):
business partner said, dude, I can't believe you said that.
I can't believe you like just outed yourself.
And I said, dude, you know any men I've met who will not admit
that they have a porn addiction,but they do.
There's two types of there's twotypes of men, men who admit they
watch porn and men who lie and say that they don't like most.
Statistically, most people at some point do.
And often times it becomes a problem.
(30:51):
I have a very firm belief that Iwill get punches on one cheek
and kisses on the other. And I've been saying that from
the beginning. The kisses on the left cheek
matter more to me. So it has helped me become more
confident. It's helped me have more self
worth I and I think it's helped me help people.
Yeah, I could sit up here and talk about how amazing things
(31:12):
are and but it doesn't matter. That's not even what matters.
What matters is what I'm still working through in order to
maintain the amazing quote UN quote things we have going on.
So yeah, I think it's helped me connect with people at a very
human level. It is normalized, whatever it is
that I've gone through that other people are going through.
And I think it's actually given permission to people to be able
(31:34):
to work through their stuff. And, and it's helped me.
I'm just way more confident now is, is somebody going to reach
out and say, Oh, wow, you're, you're soft because you grew up
without your debt? Like whatever.
That's if that's what you want to waste your time doing, feel
free. But that says way more about you
than it does about me. Yeah, Kevin, what's one thing
you wish more men knew? Vulnerability is strength.
(31:58):
You probably are not crying enough.
I bet money on it that most men are not crying enough.
I love a good cry. I love a good cry.
And your partner probably wants you to ask for help more than
you are, whether you're in a heterosexual relationship or not
a heterosexual relationship. Your partner probably wants you
(32:19):
to ask for help more. But we're convinced that that
that's weakness, and I don't think so.
There's a drastic difference between weakness and connection
that I wish, I wish more men knew that because that's
something that took me to be 30 years to learn that.
And if there's any young men outthere growing up right now
without a dad in their life, is there anything you would like
(32:41):
them to hear? Two things.
One, that does not mean anythingabout you, that does not mean
anything about your trajectory, and it does not mean anything
about what you're capable of. I mean, you are capable of
anything that anybody else is quite literally, and maybe even
more because you have more fuel in the tank.
That would be 1 and then two. And this is just a personal one.
(33:05):
Don't assume because you grew upwithout a dad that you have to
be the dad that you didn't have.That's a I've gotten that
question a lot of like, what is it going to be like when you
have kids? I'm not having kids.
I don't, I'm not, I'm not planning on having children.
What this business and what thisjourney is going to take of me.
I don't think it would be fair to have children based on the
(33:26):
amount of time I have. Maybe it will adopt later, but
with that was something I had tolet go of because I think that
for me came from a place of ego.I'll show him by being the best
dad I can be. If that's you out there and that
resonates, do it. But for me, that was more of a
wound, I think, than anything else.
So I would say really sit with that and and see what the truth
(33:47):
is. See what the truth is.
I thought I was going to put my dad to shame by being a dad.
And then eventually it got to the place where it was like,
it's not fair to, it's not fair to bring someone in.
So I can do that. Like, that's not fair, that's
ego. So I let that go.
I'm not saying you have to if you're out there, but I'd say
explore it. I think exploring it's probably
a constructive thing for everyone.
Yeah. You recognize you're setting
yourself for this competition that would involve another
(34:08):
person necessarily their their best good or anything.
Yeah. Right.
Yeah. It's like I'm going to have a
child so I can prove to my dad, who's never going to see that
I'm a great dad. Like that's what are we doing
here. Awesome.
So, Kevin, what's the best way for people to connect with you
and discover everything that youoffer?
The podcast is called Next LevelUniversity.
We do an episode every day. You can get a little bit better
(34:29):
every day. That's kind of our our thesis.
So we're on all the podcast platforms.
We're on YouTube. My e-mail is
kevin@nextleveluniverse.com. I do my own emails.
If you want to vulnerably share,I got you.
I'll keep it private, I promise.And then my handle on Instagram
is at Never Quit kid podcast content, fitness content,
whatever you're looking for, I'mprobably going to post something
(34:51):
like that on my Instagram. Well, Kevin, it was great to
finally connect. We're, we're close physically
and we've had lots of near misses for connecting.
And I just really appreciate everything you're doing for
yourself and for everyone else. Because I one thing that I
didn't grow up ever knowing was part of self worth is, is being
of service. And that really fuels self
(35:12):
worth. 100 percent, 100%, thank you so very much for having me.
Thank you for creating a safe space for men to share.
And it takes 2 to tango, so I appreciate you being willing to
to dive into the depths with me today.
Awesome. Big thanks to Kevin for sharing
his journey, lessons on self worth, and the courage to talk
about the father wounds so openly.
If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to check
(35:33):
out Kevin's Next Level University podcast for daily
episodes on growth mindset and living a next level life.
And remember, healing and self worth don't happen in isolation.
If you're ready to step out of the emotional closet and connect
with other men who are doing thework, join us in the authentic
AF community at realmenfield.org/group.
And until next time, be good to yourself.
So you finally met your dad whenyou were 27?
Yes. How did that feel?
Oh, scary, overwhelming, resolute, life changing, and
necessary. If I had to put it to 5 words,
yeah it it was all of those things encapsulated in one
experience and it changed my life forever.
(00:21):
To this day, I do believe it's one of the best things I ever
did. Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel. I'm your host, Andy Grant, here
to remind you once again that itis OK to be human.
Today we're diving into self worth, the father wound, and
what it really means to create alife you're proud of.
My guest is Kevin Palmieri, the founder and Co host of the Next
Level University podcast. Kevin once had all the success
(00:44):
he thought he wanted, yet it left him unfulfilled, even to
the point of contemplating suicide.
Since then, he's transformed hislife, producing over 2000
episodes, reaching listeners in 170 countries, and becoming a
role model for men looking to grow beyond pain into purpose.
He also carries A deeply personal story about growing up
without his dad and finally meeting him as an adult.
(01:06):
We'll explore that today. And before we jump in, if you're
a man who's tired of going it alone, come join us in
thefreeauthenticafcommunity@realmanfield.org/group.Let's do it.
Hello Kevin, and welcome to REALMen Feel.
Andy, thank you so very much forhaving me.
I'm excited to chat. It is a breath of fresh air on a
Friday to jam with Someone Like You.
(01:27):
My. Awesome.
Well, let's get to it. When we first spoke, you shared
with me that you grew up withoutknowing your father.
So I wonder, could you take us back to what life was like
growing up without your dad? Yeah, it's always hard because
people say what was it like? And I say it was normal because
for me that that was normal. But one of the stories that
really I think paints a very specific picture of how I felt,
(01:49):
it was first grade, 4th grade, Idon't know, I was young.
And the first day of school, forsome reason, you go around and
you introduce yourself and you say, this is what my mom does
for work. This is what my dad does for
work. And my mom was in the medical
field. And I remember thinking, I'm
just going to, I got to make something up for my dad.
So I remember just making up construction worker and I think
(02:10):
what not having my dad around when I was younger did to me is
it allowed me, unfortunately, toadopt imposter syndrome because
I didn't want anybody to know that secret.
Because if somebody knew that secret, they might make fun of
me. And I was made fun of it times,
even though kids didn't really know what they were doing.
So I always felt a sense of one,I'm different than everybody
(02:30):
else. Two, I'm going to be broken
because of this. And then three, as I got into my
maybe early teens, later teens, for some reason, my friends
families always try to adopt me and bring me into their dinner
parties and their trips and their vacation.
So that was always a little weird for me, feeling kind of
(02:51):
like a a charity case, for lack of better phrasing.
It's funny, you know, thinking about I never, I don't recall
having that spin, but I, so my parents divorced when I was 5
and I, I, yeah, I was at the adopted and pulled into dinners
and vacations and things and yeah, I, I just thought people
liked me. So I didn't know.
Same, same. And but, yeah, one thing that
(03:12):
struck me just now, you said youyou knew you were broken.
So there was something about Dadbeing missing that that made you
think you were off, that that was wrong somehow.
Yeah, I felt like everybody elsehas.
I won't say positive male role models because in retrospect, I
don't know how positive they were, but I assumed I'm going to
(03:35):
be the one who ends up being a loser.
I'm going to be the one who endsup being a failure.
I used to have a conversation with two of my best friends at
the time and we voted on who wasmost likely to end up in jail.
And it was me. I was the one who was going to
end up in trouble and end up in jail because a lot of people in
my family had gone to to jail and they there was drug
addiction and and alcohol addiction.
(03:56):
So I think it created an identity for me that I didn't
realize I was adopting long before I was capable of knowing
who I really was in the world, right.
And I think that's a common thing.
It's we look at our environment and our environment in many
cases dictates who we think we're supposed to be.
And unfortunately, that was that's what mine dictated to me.
Right, so you're raised by your mom and your grandmother.
(04:18):
How do you think that shaped your view of masculinity and
your own self worth? My mom is very masculine, but
one of my favorite stories of mymom ever is somebody spit at my
grandmother at a bar and my mom threw them over the bar and beat
them up. And I love that.
Let's shout out to my mom for that.
So my mom is relatively masculine there.
(04:39):
There was not a lot of femininity in my household.
So I think it it helped you witha couple things.
One, there was no yelling. There was no screaming, there
was no negativity, there was no violence.
I've had a pretty positive household, all things
considered, so at least that wasa model for me.
But in terms of masculinity, I don't.
(05:00):
I didn't really have any great constructive examples.
I was close with my uncles, but they were funny and jokey and
they didn't take almost anythingseriously.
So that never really that never really attached to me as as what
you should be. I think I did what a lot of
people did. I looked at movies and I looked
at wrestlers and that is who I thought I was supposed to be.
(05:23):
I wanted to be a professional professional wrestler.
I wanted to be a stuntman. So I think I wanted to convey or
exude what confidence looked like on television.
I thought that was masculinity. I think the problem is I was so
focused on looking good and looking confident externally and
not building actual self belief and self worth.
(05:45):
And I think self worth is being comfortable with who you are as
a person. So I think for a lot of my life
I hid behind the fact that I wasraised by my mom and my
grandmother. I hid behind the fact that we
had a 2 bedroom apartment even though there was three of us.
So the nights my mom didn't workthird shift, she would sleep on
the couch. I that was just normal.
And I, I think I tried to hide behind what normal was because I
(06:06):
was afraid what people would think.
And I think that massively affected my myself worth and
myself belief. So you finally met your dad when
you were 27? Yes.
How did that feel? Oh.
Scary, overwhelming, resolute, life changing and necessary.
(06:28):
If I had to put it to 5 words, yeah it it was all of those
things encapsulated in one experience and it changed my
life forever. To this day, I do believe it's
one of the best things I ever did.
And was this something that had you sought this out, was this
your creation, was it circumstance, synchronicity, you
know? It was a Saturday morning, I was
off of work. I was sitting on my recliner and
(06:51):
I was going through my Facebook messages.
And I didn't realize at the timeif somebody messages you and
they're not friends with you, itgoes to a special folder,
message request folder. Didn't know that.
I was going through that folder and I saw this message and you
can only see the first line. That's how they get you.
Hey, Kevin, I'm Robin. I'm your father's girlfriend.
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
(07:12):
Nope, Nope. Not today.
It's Saturday. I got plans later.
This is not going to derail my day, but I got curious.
I got very, very curious, so I opened it up.
Hey, Kevin, I'm Robin. I'm your father's girlfriend,
and he's been seeing you on Facebook.
It looks like you're doing really well.
If you'd ever want the opportunity to meet, he would
really enjoy that. And then here's the thing that
really messed me up. The message was from three years
(07:33):
prior, so I didn't even know if he was still alive.
I didn't know if they were together.
I didn't know if I didn't know any of the circumstances.
But I remember I threw my phone on the floor.
I fell on the floor. I started bawling my eyes out.
And I texted one of my friends and I said, hey, my my dad
messaged me and he wants to see me.
And they said, are you going to do it?
(07:54):
And I said, I think I have to. I know I have to.
I don't want to, but I think this is the thing that I need to
do. And they said, do you want me to
come with you? And I said, I appreciate it, but
this is one of those things I just have to do on my own.
So it was very much accidental. It was very much coincidence
that I was going through it. Realistically, if I didn't find
(08:14):
that message, I never would havemet my dad because he didn't
have my phone number. He didn't know where I lived.
I didn't even know what he looked like.
I didn't even know his real name.
So I was never going to find him.
So it was very coincidental. And it happened at a time in my
life where I was very hungry forgrowth and I was very hungry for
evolution and awareness. So it all lined up.
(08:34):
Yeah, it all lined up really nicely.
So I messaged them back and said, yeah, let's do it, Let's
meet halfway. And in a couple of weeks later,
that was that was the plan. So you didn't even know his
name? So your your parents were never
married? Did did your dad know that you
existed when you were? Born.
He knew that, yeah, he knew thatI existed.
But he was very much, from what I've gathered over the years,
(08:55):
never seen the movie Liar, Liar with Jim Carrey.
It was very much that he would say he was going to come get me.
He never would. He would say he was going to
show up. He never would.
He just never was there. And he never, there was no
improvement in that. And I also believe he was in a
motorcycle gang and he was heavyinto drugs and alcohol.
So there was a lot going on at that time.
(09:17):
So, yeah, never married. I was definitely an accident.
And I don't think there was muchplanned beyond what happens when
this child is born. And that's, yeah, that's, that's
ended up being what happened after I was born, yeah.
So you you do connect, have you stayed in contact since then or
was it just a one meeting and done?
So I I drive down to this diner,he meets me and I remember I got
(09:42):
there first. I sat down at at the booth
looking out towards the window and I remember thinking I don't
know what he looks like. So when he gets here, he's going
to have to find me and this is going to be even more awkward
than I, I realized some guy walks by the window somehow I
knew, I don't know how to explain it.
It was just one of those knowings that's my dad came in,
(10:03):
found me, sat down. I was stoic.
I was, I was locked up. You're not going to get any
emotion out of me. He was crying a couple times and
it was it was interesting. It was very interesting moment
for me apologizing us catching up and trying to essentially
collapse 27 years into 27 minutes.
But I had a moment where I looked across the table and I
(10:27):
felt bad for him. I felt bad because I had done
more work in my 27 years than hehad done in his sixty.
That was one thing. The second thing is I think I
was able to depersonalize it forthe first time ever where I
realized he didn't wake up one day and say I'm going to try to
mess this kids life up. He had his own stuff going on
and do I think I would have donebetter?
(10:48):
I like to think so. And I also can have empathy for
the fact that he didn't. And then I think it gave me
forgiveness. Like, OK, this is something I
never thought I was going to do.I'm checking this off the bucket
list. I I want to be open to
forgiveness, not necessarily forhim, but for me.
I've made him this villain in myhead and he doesn't, he can't
even handle the power, right? So I shouldn't give it to him.
(11:11):
So I ended up seeing him a couple times after and it got to
this weird place where he would just call me randomly on a
Thursday and get mad if I didn'tanswer the phone.
Even though I'm out here doing this and I'm building the
business and right I'm I'm not exactly the type of person you
just call on a whim. I don't answer my phone.
It's always on silent. That was that became resistance.
(11:32):
He could never understand why I didn't have time to go see him.
That became resistance. And eventually one day I posted
a picture on Facebook of my wifeand I and he commented, you got
to lose the mustache. That was it.
Not Oh my goodness, you and yourbeautiful wife.
Not I'm proud of you. Not I'm so proud of what you
created. You got to lose the mustache.
(11:54):
And that for me was like, OK, this is I, I can't do this.
I cannot father my father. I'm not willing to sign up for
that. So yeah, I decided essentially
to just let it die. I feel like I got what I needed.
I hope he got the closure that he needed.
I don't want to lead him on. I don't want to do what he did
to me. And honestly, I think I think
(12:14):
I'm better off knowing what I know and not having the person
in my life. So I haven't talked to him in, I
don't know, probably four years now, maybe four or five years.
At that initial meeting, you said that you were kind of
consciously stoic. You weren't going to give him
any emotion. Was that just another layer of
the defense? He dismayed.
It hurt you enough. You weren't going to let it
(12:35):
happen here. Yeah, it was.
It was. I don't think you deserve it.
Yeah, I don't think you deserve it.
I don't think you deserve it. And I can't just allow 27 years
to dissolve that quickly. I need to, I, it was ego.
It was a protector. It was what I thought I needed
to do in order to actually get through the interaction.
(12:57):
So, yeah, I, I didn't want to beemotional.
I didn't want him to know how badly I was hurt.
I didn't want him to know how much that affected my life.
I didn't want him to know the truth.
I think I didn't want him to know the truth.
And I wonder if I was emotional,if he would have been emotional.
I don't know. I don't know.
But yeah, it's it's weird when you when you imagine someone for
(13:18):
so long and then you get to see them and you realize they are
nothing like you thought they were going to be.
So I went in with an emotion, I went in with an intention.
And I think I just held on to that, probably for my safety
more than anything. Yeah, I think you're accurate
there. How has your relationship, or
lack thereof, and the meeting? How is that altered or created
(13:39):
your view of yourself as a man? I am so proud of who I've
become. I'm so proud of who I've become
just because there was a lot of,there was a lot of reasons,
there was a lot of circumstancesand there was a lot of really
easy paths I could have taken that would have ended up in any
direction. But the one I'm in one, it
(14:01):
allowed me to realize that I think I'm a better man because
my dad wasn't around. Honestly, as as heavy as that,
that is to say, I don't think having a male role model around
would have been better than not having one around based on what
I saw. And I think it's allowed me to
understand certain intricacies about myself and understand why
(14:22):
I am the way I am in certain ways and help me understand that
I actually can work through them.
Well, it's interesting. My wife said this to me today.
She said I, I don't think you give yourself enough credit for
how for most of your life you thought you were dumb and you
were useless. And now like you're extremely
smart and you can essentially figure almost anything out.
And I said, I appreciate that. That's that.
(14:43):
What a wonderful message to get first thing in the morning.
I said I appreciate that so verymuch.
So yeah, I, I'm very proud of the person I am.
And I think through that I've been able to, I've been able to
be very proud of what I've had the opportunity and the
privilege to be a part of creating.
But there's still a dark, I mean, there's still a dark side
of me that I go like when I'm atthe gym, I imagine my dad not
(15:05):
believing in me. I go to dark places when I need
to get stuff done. So there's the flowers on one
side and there's the darkness onthe other that I, I don't ever
want to lose that. I think I have such a heavy chip
on my shoulder from not having adad around and feeling like he
didn't believe in me. I want to make sure I run the
chip and the chip doesn't run me.
But I'm still leveraging that tothis day.
(15:27):
I mean, I worked 16 hours yesterday that if that chip was
not there, I just don't believe I'd be the man I am.
So taking the good with the bad and I'm very proud of what I've
been able to create from the bad, I would say.
Yeah. So it's growing up with a
physically or emotionally distant dad is often called
that, that the father wound how that impact it has on us.
And it can be the chip that drives you and turns you into
(15:50):
being a successful, well driven man focused on your own growth
and and evolution. But it also it also is a chip
that crushes some guys too. So I'm, I'm really, you know, I
want to commend you along with your wife, how you work with
what you were given so. I appreciate it.
Well, again, we're in a silo, right?
(16:11):
If you asked me seven years ago how I felt, it would not be
nearly as complete and or evolved as it is today.
So a lot of it has just been time, time, reflection,
awareness, necessity, right? So it's a, it is a very, is a
very complicated equation to overcome something like that.
And I think the equation is different for everybody, but I
do very much appreciate the lovevery much.
(16:33):
So in your 20s, you had all the trappings of success, but then I
know you had. Yeah, I'll let you share what
kind of was the rock bottom withthe breaking point for you when
you seemingly had success? Yeah, so when I was 25, I had a
very close to 6 figure. It was a six figure potential
income. We were on contracts with the
(16:53):
government and the state, so it depended on how much I worked.
There was definitely a track to get to 6 figures.
My girlfriend at the time was a model.
I was getting ready to compete in a bodybuilding show.
So I was quite literally in the best shape I will ever be.
I'll never be in that shape again.
We had just moved into a really nice apartment together.
I had a nice car, I had great friends.
I was from all external views. I was living the dream.
(17:15):
I was crushing it. But internally I was depressed,
I was anxious, I had self doubt,I had no self worth.
I felt terrible about myself. My initial rock bottom moment.
My girlfriend sat me down one time.
This was after my bodybuilding show and I was struggling bad.
After my bodybuilding show, she said, hey, I'm leaving.
(17:38):
You're just not the man that I fell in love with.
And I feel like you're not the man that can help support me and
my goals and my dreams and my ambitions.
And she was right, unfortunately.
And the thing that really helpedme figure out where I was, as
she said, I was going to leave amonth or two ago, but I was, I
was genuinely afraid if I did, you might commit suicide.
And I remember thinking, oh, good, how did we get here?
(17:59):
How did it get to this point? So that was my initial rock
bottom. She left, work got slow, so I
was struggling financially and my bills had just doubled and I
had an eating disorder for my bodybuilding show.
So in the beginning it looked like I had health, wealth and
love behind the scenes. I was unhealthy as you could be.
I was as single and lonely as you could be, and I was
(18:20):
struggling financially. Naturally, I think the the male
side of me said I'm just going to go make a boatload of money,
let me grind my face off and I'll work myself out of this
hole. So that next year I got a
promotion at my job. We proceeded to have the busiest
year we ever had and I spent 10 months living on the road,
travelling up and down the East Coast of the US for my job.
(18:42):
Monday through Friday, I'm on the road.
I get home either late Friday night, early Saturday, clothes
come out of the suitcase, into the washer, into the dryer, back
into the suitcase. That's my life for the year.
We get to the end of the year though, Andy, I crack open that
final pay stub. I made $100,000 at 26 with no
college degree. Externally, feels really good.
(19:04):
Internally, nothing shifted. So I remember thinking for most
of my life I've lived unconsciously.
The opposite of unconscious is hyperconscious.
I'm going to start a podcast called the Hyperconscious
Podcast. That's what any young man would
do at this point in his life. Let's start a podcast.
So started a podcast. I fell in love with podcasting
and very quickly I learned that this job is not what I want to
(19:27):
do. I know money is not the only
answer. I'm now checked out completely,
almost overnight. So I start calling out, showing
up late, leaving job sites early, just I don't care
anymore. But as you know, there's not a
line out the door of people saying, hey, this podcast is a
great idea. How much money do you need?
How much money can we give you so you can do a full time?
(19:49):
So I had to keep going to this job and my anxiety came back and
it was getting worse. My depression came back and it
was getting worse and eventuallyI found out that rock bottom has
a basement. I woke up in a hotel room in New
Jersey. Alarm clock went off at 5:30.
I sat up, slid to the edge of the bed lacing up my work boots.
(20:09):
And the best way to explain it is there was 10 televisions on
in my head at the same time and every single one was on a
different station and one is saying you're stuck here
forever. I was the gas station guy, I was
the guy who cleaned bathrooms athospitals.
I was the guy who just never could find a way to make good
money. Felt like I got lucky getting
(20:30):
this job. I'm never going to get this
again. If I ever left, what would my
friends say? I make so much money compared to
my friends who all have degrees and went to college and I
didn't. There's so there's significance
there. What's my family going to say?
I remember how highly my mom would talk about me to the
people at work and she used to take my car to work at times
(20:51):
because I had such a nice car. And do you really think you're
going to be a podcaster? And that was the loudest one.
Do you really think you're goingto be a podcaster?
This, there's no way this works.So in my mind, I thought to
myself, well, if I was just to take my life, I would take my
problems with me. And that was the rock bottom
sitting on the edge of the bed moment where I didn't think
there was anything else to do. Now, luckily I have positive men
(21:14):
in my life, luckily. So I messaged 1 and he's my
business partner now, the Co host of the show.
So it's worked out quite well, Iwould say.
And I said, Hey, I'm, I'm havingthese thoughts, I'm having these
feelings, I'm having these emotions.
I don't, I don't know what to do, man.
And he said a lot. But the thing I remember was
over the last couple years, yourawareness has changed a ton, but
your environments have remained the same.
(21:36):
So that was like the belief I needed.
I borrowed his belief. I borrowed his worth and I ended
up leaving that job three or four months later.
I think him and I partnered up in 2018 and we tried to figure
out how to do this podcast thingfull time.
So that rock bottom moment became so much of the fuel for
even starting and leaning into this and getting to the place
(21:59):
that we are today. But yeah, it was it was a
really, really challenging time in my life for sure.
Now, very honestly, life got harder after I left my job
because I lost all of my money and I was anxious and having
panic attacks and it was this whole thing.
But sometimes it's got to get worse before it gets better.
Why do you think that so many men have to hit rock bottom?
(22:20):
Like can you be I don't like this so I'm going to change it?
It has to be like I am. I am facing myself inflicted
demise if I don't change things.Why did it have to get so bad
for you to make that that change?
Sometimes your ego has to die before you're willing to do
things that require humility, right?
And I think for me, I was livingin such a place of ego
(22:42):
significance that I could not imagine my life without the
external accomplishments that I had.
When you, we call it the pain pleasure pendulum, when you
swing all the way to heck no, you're more likely to swing to
heck, heck yes. And the example I always use is
let's say Monday morning, you goto work and it's the worst day
you've ever had at work. One of two things happens.
(23:04):
You say, screw this, I'm out. I'm going to start looking for
other jobs. Or you go in Tuesday and it gets
a little bit better and then Wednesday, hump day, Thursdays,
Friday junior, and then Fridays,Friday, Saturday, Sunday you
work off some steam, Monday you're back.
The moment has passed, the necessity has passed, the pain
has passed. I think that's why pain is such
(23:27):
a powerful motivator. When you get to a place where
you are so deep in pain that youknow it won't pass, you know you
have to do something differently.
So I think, and I don't think that's just for men, I think
that's for humans in general. I think men are probably
statistically more stubborn. So it takes more.
But I think when you're in a really dark place, you're
willing to work, you're willing to look for light that you
hadn't been willing to in the past.
(23:49):
And I, I really think it's just because pain is the best
motivator and the best necessity.
And I think as men, we think we're supposed to handle all of
the pain and we're capable of taking it and just continuing
on. That's for you to decide out
there whether you're watching orlistening.
But yeah, I think that's why I think unfortunately, discomfort,
resistance, pain are required tochange because they're what
(24:12):
creates a necessity in the 1st place.
If it's just OK, I'm probably not going to do anything about
it, right? It just doesn't make any sense.
Has your own definition of self worth changed from your 20s to
today? I think in my mind, self worth
used to be delusional. So I know my value and I know
(24:36):
what I'm worth and I'm never going to be around people that
don't value that worth. I think that's a good direction
to move in. But I I think I thought accurate
self worth was arrogance. When I think accurate self worth
for me is humility. I'm a very valuable man,
Awesome. I can add value in many
situations. Awesome.
And I have a lot of work to do in many arenas.
(24:59):
I think that's accurate self worth.
Self worth is understanding the value of you as a human being.
And I think we are either delusionally high or
delusionally low. I don't think anybody's really
accurate. I'm not accurate.
I'm probably a little bit over. I'm probably a little bit
delusionally high right now because things are going really
well. So I think I thought it was
(25:22):
arrogance and I think I thought it was believing in my own
unique capabilities in the external world.
Now I know it's just being able to set a boundary and hold it,
being able to hold my emotional space when somebody is trying to
take it. It's way more internal than I
(25:42):
thought. I thought self worth and self
belief were the same thing. I thought they were external and
people could see them. Now I understand self worth is
way more about a feeling than itis what anybody sees.
And also, it's way easier to just punt it and abandoned it
than it is to hold. Holding self worth in a moment
is scary. It's very, very, very scary.
(26:04):
And you're the only one that canreally do that work.
And you're the only one that really knows whether or not it's
happening. So yeah, my definition has
changed a ton. But I think it's really hard to
define something you don't have yet, Right.
It's it's easy to say this is what it is until you realize,
oh, OK. No, no, this is actually what it
feels like when you have it. Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, until you have your experience, you're just
guessing. Like, is this, is this good
(26:27):
feeling? Is this, is this going fast in
this car? Is this self worth?
Is this what it is like? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Well, we if it, if it feels like
it's going in the right direction, we think we're doing
it, we're doing it right. So if you go from just self
deprecation to arrogant, it feels like it's progress.
It is progress. You're moving in the right
direction. You just have gone past the
(26:48):
optimal point, right. And and I think that is life in
general. I think life is a constant
pendulum between under and over,under and over.
I used to be somebody who spent way too much money on dumb
stuff. I was way over.
Now I'm struggling to buy thingsI need because I'm so focused on
saving money. I'm under now.
There's an optimal point for allof us, self belief, self worth,
(27:11):
all of that stuff. And I just think it takes time,
experience and reflection to to get there.
And I had very little time, verylittle experience and very, very
little reflection in my mid 20s for sure.
So Kevin, with over 2000 episodes of your Next Level
University podcast, is there a most surprising thing you have
learned about men and self worthfrom from your guests?
(27:34):
That's a great question. Some of the people who have the
most healthy self worth are the ones who have gone through the
most hell to get there. There's a gentleman, his name's
Anthony Trucks, and he's played in the NFL, American Ninja
Warrior, spoken on some of the biggest stages in the world, and
he's just a good dude. Just a good dude.
(27:58):
But when you hear his story about how he got bounced around
from foster home to foster home,at one point, I'm pretty sure he
had to catch chickens in the backyard in order to eat, was
put in a dog kennel, had to lickthe bottom of people's shoes
until his tongue bled. I mean, he had overcome so much
to become a positive, healthy man.
I think there's something about that.
(28:20):
There's something about having to overcome in order to get to
the place that you want. So necessity, yeah, I don't.
I don't know if anybody just wakes up one day and says I want
to be a really good person. I don't know if it really works
that way. I think.
I think something has to happen that shakes you to the core.
And you say, I don't want to live like this.
And the way I'm living, if I continue at this trajectory, I'm
(28:42):
in a lot of trouble. I have to change, like,
everything, and I have to work through everything.
So, and sometimes the most resistance creates the highest
quality human. I would say that's, that's been
something. And then I would say this is an
interesting thing too. I was thinking of this the other
day. There's a lot of people out
there that say like bro code, you know, what happens amongst
(29:04):
Bros stays amongst Bros. I think that's a sad excuse to
just live in arrogance and live in ego.
We've had guests on the podcast in the past who we never
released the episodes because they're surrounded by people
that make their behavior OK, andthose are not my people.
I do not want you in my life. I don't want to talk to you.
(29:24):
I don't want to hear from you. I don't want to spend any time
with you. It helped me really identify who
the people I wanted to be aroundwith, who my people are and who
the people I'm just not interested in spending time
with, regardless of how much quicker that would help me be
successful. That a lot of people,
unfortunately, and especially, no, I wouldn't even say
especially men, men and women are way more focused on being
(29:46):
externally successful than character driven internally.
And that is something that jumped off the page.
You won't know who it is becausethose episodes didn't get
released, but there was a coupleof them for sure.
So Kevin, how has sharing your story publicly helped you heal?
So many of the things that I used to be nervous about talking
(30:09):
about and the things that I had shame around and my insecurities
now are not. I'm not insecure about them at
all because I've talked about them so much.
I, we were on a podcast one timewith a, her name is Toria Leto.
She's a licensed marriage and family therapist.
And I was talking about how I had AI was working through an
addiction to porn. And after the episode, Alan, my
(30:30):
business partner said, dude, I can't believe you said that.
I can't believe you like just outed yourself.
And I said, dude, you know any men I've met who will not admit
that they have a porn addiction,but they do.
There's two types of there's twotypes of men, men who admit they
watch porn and men who lie and say that they don't like most.
Statistically, most people at some point do.
And often times it becomes a problem.
(30:51):
I have a very firm belief that Iwill get punches on one cheek
and kisses on the other. And I've been saying that from
the beginning. The kisses on the left cheek
matter more to me. So it has helped me become more
confident. It's helped me have more self
worth I and I think it's helped me help people.
Yeah, I could sit up here and talk about how amazing things
(31:12):
are and but it doesn't matter. That's not even what matters.
What matters is what I'm still working through in order to
maintain the amazing quote UN quote things we have going on.
So yeah, I think it's helped me connect with people at a very
human level. It is normalized, whatever it is
that I've gone through that other people are going through.
And I think it's actually given permission to people to be able
(31:34):
to work through their stuff. And, and it's helped me.
I'm just way more confident now is, is somebody going to reach
out and say, Oh, wow, you're, you're soft because you grew up
without your debt? Like whatever.
That's if that's what you want to waste your time doing, feel
free. But that says way more about you
than it does about me. Yeah, Kevin, what's one thing
you wish more men knew? Vulnerability is strength.
(31:58):
You probably are not crying enough.
I bet money on it that most men are not crying enough.
I love a good cry. I love a good cry.
And your partner probably wants you to ask for help more than
you are, whether you're in a heterosexual relationship or not
a heterosexual relationship. Your partner probably wants you
(32:19):
to ask for help more. But we're convinced that that
that's weakness, and I don't think so.
There's a drastic difference between weakness and connection
that I wish, I wish more men knew that because that's
something that took me to be 30 years to learn that.
And if there's any young men outthere growing up right now
without a dad in their life, is there anything you would like
(32:41):
them to hear? Two things.
One, that does not mean anythingabout you, that does not mean
anything about your trajectory, and it does not mean anything
about what you're capable of. I mean, you are capable of
anything that anybody else is quite literally, and maybe even
more because you have more fuel in the tank.
That would be 1 and then two. And this is just a personal one.
(33:05):
Don't assume because you grew upwithout a dad that you have to
be the dad that you didn't have.That's a I've gotten that
question a lot of like, what is it going to be like when you
have kids? I'm not having kids.
I don't, I'm not, I'm not planning on having children.
What this business and what thisjourney is going to take of me.
I don't think it would be fair to have children based on the
(33:26):
amount of time I have. Maybe it will adopt later, but
with that was something I had tolet go of because I think that
for me came from a place of ego.I'll show him by being the best
dad I can be. If that's you out there and that
resonates, do it. But for me, that was more of a
wound, I think, than anything else.
So I would say really sit with that and and see what the truth
(33:47):
is. See what the truth is.
I thought I was going to put my dad to shame by being a dad.
And then eventually it got to the place where it was like,
it's not fair to, it's not fair to bring someone in.
So I can do that. Like, that's not fair, that's
ego. So I let that go.
I'm not saying you have to if you're out there, but I'd say
explore it. I think exploring it's probably
a constructive thing for everyone.
Yeah. You recognize you're setting
yourself for this competition that would involve another
(34:08):
person necessarily their their best good or anything.
Yeah. Right.
Yeah. It's like I'm going to have a
child so I can prove to my dad, who's never going to see that
I'm a great dad. Like that's what are we doing
here. Awesome.
So, Kevin, what's the best way for people to connect with you
and discover everything that youoffer?
The podcast is called Next LevelUniversity.
We do an episode every day. You can get a little bit better
(34:29):
every day. That's kind of our our thesis.
So we're on all the podcast platforms.
We're on YouTube. My e-mail is
kevin@nextleveluniverse.com. I do my own emails.
If you want to vulnerably share,I got you.
I'll keep it private, I promise.And then my handle on Instagram
is at Never Quit kid podcast content, fitness content,
whatever you're looking for, I'mprobably going to post something
(34:51):
like that on my Instagram. Well, Kevin, it was great to
finally connect. We're, we're close physically
and we've had lots of near misses for connecting.
And I just really appreciate everything you're doing for
yourself and for everyone else. Because I one thing that I
didn't grow up ever knowing was part of self worth is, is being
of service. And that really fuels self
(35:12):
worth. 100 percent, 100%, thank you so very much for having me.
Thank you for creating a safe space for men to share.
And it takes 2 to tango, so I appreciate you being willing to
to dive into the depths with me today.
Awesome. Big thanks to Kevin for sharing
his journey, lessons on self worth, and the courage to talk
about the father wounds so openly.
If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to check
(35:33):
out Kevin's Next Level University podcast for daily
episodes on growth mindset and living a next level life.
And remember, healing and self worth don't happen in isolation.
If you're ready to step out of the emotional closet and connect
with other men who are doing thework, join us in the authentic
AF community at realmenfield.org/group.
And until next time, be good to yourself.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.