October 31, 2025 • 35 mins
Overcoming Compulsive Sexual Behavior
In this episode of Real Men Feel, host Andy Grant speaks with Craig Perra, a renowned expert on overcoming compulsive sexual behaviors, sex addiction, and porn addiction. Craig shares his personal journey from a high-powered attorney with severe addiction issues to becoming a co-founder of the Mindful Habit System, a transformative approach to managing compulsive behaviors. The discussion delves into the underlying causes of such behaviors, the detrimental role of shame, and the importance of leading all parts of oneself, including those aspects one may despise.
Craig also emphasizes the necessity of purpose, emotional regulation, and healthy habits in overcoming addiction. Additionally, he sheds light on the unique challenges faced by high-profile individuals and the pervasive impact of easily accessible pornography in today's digital age.
00:00 Introduction to the Cure for Sex and Porn Addiction
00:32 Meet Craig Perra: Overcoming Addiction
01:22 Craig's Personal Journey and Turning Point
03:19 Building the Mindful Habit System
08:10 The Role of Shame and Internal Family Systems
11:52 Challenges with Traditional 12-Step Models
14:22 Focusing on Habits Over Addiction
16:15 Unique Challenges for High Achievers
18:52 Impact of Technology on Compulsive Sexual Activity
22:53 Addressing Deeper Needs and Self-Care
24:38 Advice for Partners and Breaking the Cycle
28:12 The Importance of Healthy Sexual Expression
30:15 Final Thoughts and Resources
Connect with Craig
Website — https://www.mindfulhabithelp.com/
TikTok — https://www.tiktok.com/@the_mindful_habit
Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/mindful_habit_coaching/
LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigperra/
YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/user/themindfulhabitResources
Sex Afflictions & Porn Addictions Podcast — https://pod.link/556373664
The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg — https://amzn.to/47wkGaJ
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Join me and other like-minded men in the
Authentic AF Community | http://realmenfeel.org/group
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
#RealMenFeel ep 377
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I got one YouTube video and it'sthe cure for sex and porn
addiction. I haven't changed it because it
is still my truth 13 years later.
The cure is the aggressive pursuit of a great life.
Anything short of that will fail.
It's too difficult a problem to break without you feeling good
about yourself, having community, doing all the things
(00:20):
that you talk about on your podcast and.
Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel.
I'm your host Andy Grant here toremind you that being a man is
not about suppressing your emotions, it's about feeling
them and living your life authentically.
Today's guest is someone that has walked through the fire and
built a path for others to follow.
Craig Para is a world renowned expert in overcoming compulsive
sexual behaviors, sex addiction and porn addiction.
(00:42):
He's the Co founder of the Mindful Habits System with his
wife Michelle, helping thousandsof people from all walks of life
take control of their habits andtransform their lives.
Craig knows first hand the devastation of addiction and the
power of building a system that works when traditional
approaches fail. Today, we're going to explore
what really drives compulsive behaviors, how shame keeps men
stuck, and what it looks like tolead all parts of yourself,
(01:05):
especially the ones you hate. If you're looking for a
supportive community, check out Authentic AF, my free online
community at realmanfield.org/group.
Let's do it all right, Craig. Hello and welcome to Real
Manfield. Hey, man, it's good to be here.
Thanks, Andy. So Craig, I know in AI guess in
a prior life you are a high-powered attorney and what
(01:28):
forced you to kind of pause and take a look at what how you were
leading your life? Yeah, wasn't a pause, it was a
the brakes applied abruptly as humanly possible.
So make a Long story short, always been really successful
professionally. An executive attorney kept
getting bigger and bigger jobs. I got fired from my job back
(01:50):
east for telling a stupid white lie to my boss, which you cannot
do. You cannot lie in the office of
the general counsel or any position of authority.
Quite frankly, as soon as you lie, your credibility is pretty
much shot. Now, with luck, all the next
day. But I'm the comeback kid.
I had a better job. Now.
Listen, while all this is happening, Andy, I'm breaking
down. So I get a job in California.
(02:15):
The company moves me out here. I'm now an executive for a very
large insurance company. Biggest responsibility that I've
ever had in my life. I hated it.
I hated the job. I felt I was trapped.
I rebelled against that, and oh boy, did I rebel against that.
I ended up being hospitalized after trying to hurt myself.
(02:37):
I was fired from that job. That firing and that attempt to
hurt myself was the big wake up call for me because I knew,
Andy, that I couldn't keep doingthe same things that had been
producing that outcome. And I had done, you know,
traditional therapy. I had done, you know, meetings.
(03:00):
And it's not their fault it didn't work.
It's all my fault it didn't work.
But I needed something differentand and that's what ultimately
led me to where to me talking toyou now.
But yeah, that was the low point, Andy.
What did you do to take care of yourself that became the
foundation for how you now serveother people?
Yeah, great question. And let me be clear, right, get
(03:23):
therapy. You know, I want everyone
listening to this to get help to, you know, have someone in
your corner. We can't do it alone, guys.
But I, I found, so when I got out of the inpatient facility, I
got an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper prescribing me the things
that I needed to do going forward.
And for some reason, Andy, I don't know why I expected this,
(03:45):
but I expected it to be something different.
I had expectations. We were finally going to crack
the code. This time it was an, it was an
inpatient facility. It's, it's, it's not the place
where anyway it, it was a really, really very, very low
point. But I get this prescription for
more therapy, more meetings. I was more depressed at that
(04:08):
moment because I'd spent a lifetime in therapy going back
to childhood peeling lay the layers of the onion, the, the
sexual assaults, the physical assaults, the, you know, mom and
dad and, and all that, you know,important work.
But here I was at my lowest point.
So I had this vision that I had to do something differently and
(04:32):
I found a counselor who didn't subscribe to the disease based
model of addiction when it came to compulsive sexual behavior.
And this therapist also taught me tools, ultimately hired me,
and then that's how I ended up where I am today.
But it really started at that low point, Andy.
I needed something different. What I was doing wasn't working.
(04:56):
I was challenging the, the, the,the notion that talking about
your problems once a week is going to produce great outcomes.
And while I think that that is incredibly important for some
people, I needed more. And, and ultimately I built it
that that's what gave birth to the mindful habit system.
And 15 years later, you know, still going strong, kicking ass
(05:18):
and taking names. But it all started at that low
point, realizing that I needed something more.
One thing that I'm amazed in your story is that your
relationship with your wife didn't just survive this it it
evolved and you you are Co creators of this.
The mindful habit system is that.
Right, Yeah, we are. And the we just celebrated my
(05:39):
wife's 50th birthday. Literally we've got a friend
over here in the other room and other friends, you know, flew in
and we had an amazing time. She's my business partner, my
life partner. She saved my life at my low
point, and I'm obviously very grateful for that.
But yeah, And you have to thrive, Andy.
We teach that you have to thrive.
(05:59):
You cannot come out of sex addiction, porn addiction,
mental illness, whatever you want to call it and be mediocre
or be just OK. You know, just OK wasn't enough
for me, although I thought it was.
But there I was finding myself back in some of the same holes.
So yeah, your relationship is such an important part of your
(06:20):
physical health and mental health.
And we teach people that it has to thrive if it's going to
survive and you're going to be happy.
So you mentioned some childhood physical and sexual assault.
Do you feel that that set you upfor sexual challenges and issues
as an adult? Absolutely.
(06:41):
Absolutely. So my mother was physically
abusive. My therapist called it the worst
form of abuse he had ever seen in 17 years.
Now I don't believe that I, I, Imight my mind.
So that was an act of compassionbecause I've been doing this for
13 years and I've seen some pretty horrible stuff.
I had food, shelter, clothing, soccer practice, soccer
(07:02):
tournaments, wrestling tournaments, Disney World.
There. There was a lot of things that
were going right. However, my attitudes towards
women, I was first woman gave meup for adoption.
I was adopted as an infant. The second woman, despite her
best intentions, hurt me. I got scars all over my hands
(07:23):
and arms from that abuse. And what that did was it made me
susceptible to the older neighborhood boy who had parents
who didn't look after him at a whole basement to himself.
And he had porn and a pool tableTV and a Mac.
You know, before people even hadMacs, we played Wolfenstein.
(07:44):
So the irony is, is that the theplace where, you know, and I'd
say I was being touched. There was an age difference, but
we were, you know, participatingin, you know, mutually
consensual stuff most of the time.
There were a couple of moments that certainly blurred the line
because I was younger. But yeah, that's where the
(08:06):
secret started. And the shame.
How big a role does shame play in keeping men stuck in kind of
any self-destructive behavior they might be in?
I want permission to change thisanswer later on, but I'll say
Andy, it's the most impactful. It is the most dangerous, it is
the most nefarious, because it'snot like you did something
(08:31):
wrong. It's that you are wrong.
You know, shame and guilt are two different things or or even,
you know, good shame moral compass reminded me it's a
little, you know, I don't want to be.
That's not what this was. This was a drowning, worthless
piece of shit kind of shame thatcuts me and my clients to their
core because it's evidence that they are in fact not worthy of
(08:54):
love or not worthy of repair, not worthy of grace and
forgiveness. Which obviously is ridiculously
true, but shame is massively impactful.
How do you help clients break free from that that weight of
shame? A couple things #1 when people
(09:15):
start the program, Andy, I want them anchored as quickly as we
can to their purpose. Like why are they here?
There is a lot of data that sayspeople who have purpose live
longer, healthier lives. And you know, from a business
perspective, it would be preposterous to have a life that
that wasn't going the the business that didn't have a
mission and wasn't going in it in any particular direction.
(09:38):
So what I want clients anchored to why are they here in the 1st
place? And it better not be just the
stop. I want them anchored to what why
are you doing this? Why do you want to be better?
Why do you want to save your marriage?
Why do you want to work on yourself?
So I want them answering that why question and building on
that as we make our way through the program.
(09:58):
And that's that's up. The primary way we help clients
manage shame is through a thing called parts work or the
internal family systems model. So the internal family systems
model is a modern neuroscience supported behavior change
modality that reflects the reality that we have inside us.
(10:20):
These different parts that take over in response to external
stimuli. And these parts aren't conflict.
These parts take over and hijackthe system and lead us to do
things that we say we don't wantto do.
But like learning to lead shame in love.
(10:42):
That part is what happens in theparts work.
It helps people instead of, you know, demonizing their shame.
The parts work gives people an understanding of where it came
from. What?
Why do they feel like a worthless piece of shit?
There's always childhood programming around that
(11:04):
conditioning in training, but but even more importantly than
where it came from, that's obviously important.
That family of origin root cause.
You know when you go see a therapist and they're asking you
about the past, there's a reasonfor that.
That's the conditioning, that's the training.
But more importantly, what the parts work does is it gives you
(11:24):
a vehicle to manage shame. It gives you a container that
this is the part that I need to leave.
I can't get sucked up by the undertow of I'm a worthless
piece of crap. I'm a bad person when that part
awakens, right? That's my body's way of telling
me I need something. And we teach people to listen
(11:44):
and lean those parts versus demonize them, shame them, stuff
them down and ignore them, whichhappens an awful lot.
What was it about the traditional 12 step model that
that wasn't working for you and perhaps isn't isn't working for
other people? Yeah.
So let me first say that these are amazing communities, amazing
(12:05):
fellowships of people at their lowest point where they can go
and and be seen and get help from someone else.
I want to lead with that proposition.
If you are lonely and you are dealing with this, go to a
meeting. OK, now that being said, in the
(12:26):
treating compulsive sexual behavior like we treat alcohol
is highly controversial. Though most people think sex
addiction and porn addiction is the prevailing treatment model,
it's not. Sex addiction and porn addiction
has been rejected by the American Psychiatric
Association. They studied it for five years.
(12:47):
And we don't think using the alcohol framework is what's
going to actually create healthysexuality.
The goal isn't sobriety. The goal isn't not doing
something. The goal is being happy, being
happy and having a healthy sex life, whatever that might.
So add my low point and that waspart of my awakening when I
(13:11):
learned how controversial it was.
I've been in treatment for 20 years.
I had no idea there was controversy.
I had no idea the World Health Organization studied sex
addiction and rejected it in favor of a process disorder.
I didn't know that the American Association of Sexuality
Educators, Counselors and Therapists, the leading group of
(13:31):
treatment providers with an expertise in sexual health, say
the 12 step model actually causes harm.
What, what? Wait, 'cause this is what I've
been doing for 20 years. So there was a part of me that
was angry at that low point, Andy, no one told me this, No
one shared with me how could I be in treatment for 20 years and
not one of the therapists say, just so you know, this is an
(13:54):
experimental model. It's not supported by forensic
evidence. It hasn't double-blind placebo
like other treatment protocols have been studied.
There was no disclaimer around that it's not a recognized
mental health disorder and thereare valid reasons for that.
And so that was the gap that I wanted to fill.
(14:17):
So I've heard you talk about your program as that is it's
habit recovery. So how does focusing on habits
different from focusing on addiction?
Well, I think there, I think there's an overlap, you know,
not, not, not to mince words, right.
I don't get caught up, Andy. And what you call it because
clearly it's compulsive and clearly it's addictive, but the
(14:41):
solution is not not doing the thing, right.
That is one of the most important lessons I want to
teach people. The solution is not doing the
thing. You must create healthy
sexuality. You have to deal with the
underlying treatment issues. And at that low point, Andy, you
know, sometimes like an expression hits you, like, like
(15:05):
you heard it before, but it hitsyou.
And what hit me at that low point was in order to break a
habit, you have to make a habit.And I learned that in Charles
Duhigg's book. And as someone who designed
curriculum for a living when I was an executive, I was
responsible for training thousands of people.
And I said to myself, if the make a habit part of the
(15:26):
equation is most important because it is the condition that
must be met if you are to break a habit, to break a habit, you
have to make a habit. So I decided to build a model
focused on the make a habit. So making new habits is
everything. That's identity change, that's
process change, outcome change. It all comes from who you are,
(15:48):
what you do. How do you create healthy?
How do you counterbalance these forces that started for us in
childhood, this escape, this release, this reward?
And so when I started focusing on the habits I needed to create
versus the habits I needed to break, things change
significantly for me in my recovery.
(16:09):
So I know you worked with a lot of high achievers, executive
celebrities, Olympians. When someone's in the public
eye, what added challenges do they have and do you have as a
coach to help them? Yeah, it still be added
challenges. One of the things that most
people don't know what it's liketo be a target for women.
(16:31):
I ain't at Target. I mean, I'm not at Target, at
Target or the supermarket, right?
No one, no one, no one, no one. No one's texting me.
No one's studying where I'm on vacation, what hotel I'm going
to be in like these. Some of them are predators.
They are absolutely predators. And these are young men.
My clients tend to be 30. They're usually towards the
(16:54):
middle or to the end of their career.
But it is. It's absolutely insane how great
they need need to be around setting boundaries because they
are constantly being harassed, followed hotel rooms,
restaurants. There are people who know the
(17:14):
schedules of the players, know what hotels they stay at, know
what restaurants they go go to. So that is a ridiculously
difficult challenge that most people don't have.
In addition to being in the public eye and receiving all
that attention, which, you know,as guys we love.
They're just like us, Andy. There's no, you know what I
mean? They, they, they want to be
successful. They want to be happy in their
(17:35):
lives. They happen to be very good at
this sport or, or this thing andthey, you know, busted up just
like the rest of us. All that attention, all that
significance. When they're off stage, they're
empty or they're off the, the floor, you know, there's this
empty feeling. They're stuck in the hotel room
for hours and hours and hours. And what happens?
(17:56):
What it, what it, what do men do?
You know, they find themselves on social media and before you
know it, someone's inviting themselves over to the room.
And you know, there's just a lotof that that goes on.
So there's a lot of pressure forthese guys, pressure that most
people don't have, you know, plus the pressure of the public
shaming that happens when it, when it goes public.
(18:16):
Most of my client, I've had a few cases that have bled over
into the public Andy and I'm always behind the scenes
reputation management working with their publicist and, and
they're really helping that. My job is to help them.
But yeah, it is not that anyone is going to have pity for these
guys, but it is harder for them.They're trying hard, they want
to be better. Pressure is enormous and I'm
(18:40):
just blessed that I don't have those pressures.
In this day and age, with porn literally everywhere and
available at the fingertips on every device that everyone's
always carrying with them, how has that changed the landscape
for compulsive sexual activity? It has accelerated it, it has
(19:00):
compounded it, it has magnified it, and it is a growing
loneliness game epidemic in all people.
And now my clients are men and we're going to talk about men.
Andy, I thank God that I did nothave AI girlfriends when I was
acting out. I thank God that all this sugar
(19:24):
baby stuff wasn't as prolific. Like all these things that are
so commonplace now is mind blowing to me.
Like, and it's only been what, 15 years since I stopped doing
what I was doing. And the change has been
tremendous. It's available on every device
now. It's interactive, and that's
(19:45):
creating a whole host of challenges.
The AI girlfriend market is currently valued at 3.2 billion,
and if memory serves me correctly, they expect it to
rise to $28 billion per year that men are going to spend on
their AI girlfriends by 2028. Wow, man, I knew it was there,
(20:06):
but I didn't know. I didn't know it was already
that big of a thing. Yeah, and it's growing.
Have you seen any of the ads yet?
Have come across your Facebook yet?
Right, man, come on. I feel bad for these guys.
Yeah. I just, yeah, I'm like you when
I was growing up, like it was a stash of porn in the woods was
the big thrill of childhood. And that's what happened.
That was just, yeah, it's everywhere.
(20:27):
So it becomes meaningless. It becomes.
There's no such thing as a rarity to it.
I've heard you say. The, the, what I want, what I
want to say, Andy though the, the, the impact has been dire,
it is great, it is getting worse.
Experts believe that high rates of porn consumption have
impacted Japan's birth rate. The level of divorce continues
(20:50):
to rise. 30 to 40% of women ages18 to 40 report being slapped,
choked or spit on during intercourse without consent by
their partners. So it, it's not like, oh, is it
going to bleed over? It isn't just bleeding over, it
is feeling over and it's making a stinking mess because we are
(21:13):
not wired for this type of technology.
Our brains and bodies and heartsaren't wired to see all this
pornography. I I the impact is is deep and
profound and is destroying families.
Yeah, so. So Craig, if you had the global
sweeping power to make a change in regards to to porn or
(21:34):
technology, what would you do? I would make it so kids can't
see it right? Like I would do what, you know,
Australia, well, Australia has banned social media for kids
under 16. When there's a problem in
Australia, they, they seem to respond very quickly with
legislation to fix it. That ain't happening here, Andy.
(21:56):
It's just, it's just not like everyone knows kids are getting
exposed at a policy level. I know there are passionate
advocates who care, but in termsof industry, they don't care.
This the quicker you get them, the more you get a customer for
life. And I have no doubt that these
conversations are being had whenwe put a man on the moon, we can
(22:17):
protect children from pornography.
We, we could have done it. We refuse to do it.
And now that's where we are. But if I could wave a magic
wand, Evidence based sexual education training for parents.
Because if you're not talking toyour kid about pleasure, joy,
consent, values, morals, pleasure, which is a really hard
(22:39):
thing for parents to talk about with their kids, but if you're
not doing it, they're learning from porn and they are learning
lessons that'll impact them for the rest of their lives
negatively. So I've heard you often say that
compulsive behaviors are symptoms of deeper needs.
So what are some of those deeperneeds that men are not
addressing? Well, they're not taking care of
(22:59):
themselves. They're not.
They're not practicing self-care.
They're not able to regulate distress.
So porn, when it becomes prolific, is a coping strategy.
Men are using it to numb, cope and escape.
It is a release, it is a reward,and it works.
(23:22):
Andy, you know the stress that everyone's under now.
But look, we're talking about men, so we're going to talk
about men. They are under insane amounts of
stress. They identify as providers.
Yet more and more men are unableto fulfill that role because of
economic conditions and what's happening in this country.
(23:44):
So they're losing that identity as a provider.
And where do you where, you know, where have we had this met
boy, you know, numb, cope and escape and find that that
solace, that freedom, that secret, you know, we had the
magazines to go into the woods. The kids now just have this
phone and it is a very effectivecoping strategy.
(24:07):
So they have to learn to regulate their emotions.
They have to learn to regulate fear.
What do I do when I get stressed, when I get anxious?
How do I practice mindfulness? How do I anchor into my purpose?
How do I remind myself of who I want to be so I don't have to
(24:27):
keep slipping down that rabbit hole?
So yeah, there are a lot of needs that need to be met
proactively when clients come tome because they're all being met
reactively. For the partners of men that are
struggling with with any form ofsexual compulsion, what would
you like them to know? Oh God, this is such a tough
(24:48):
question. One I want them to know.
It's not your fault, number one,it's not your fault.
These are behaviors that began in childhood.
If you asked him how many times he numbed, coped, and escaped
using pornography, the guy in his 40s could conceivably be in
the thousands, thousands and thousands of time #2 while there
(25:13):
is debate on what to call it, hereally can't help.
He really does not have the capacity to make good decisions
over extended periods of times when it comes to sexual health
choices when he's been doing what he's been doing for as long
as he's been doing it. Don't blame yourself for that.
This is a very difficult problemto solve.
It started in childhood. It's happened thousands of
(25:36):
times. And it's not just doing it,
Andy. It's not just doing it.
It's the lying about it with. In other words, don't.
So the the men formerly known asboys.
It's not like we just did it, but we didn't do it on the front
lawn. Like we ride our bikes and pull
a wheelie and go over a jump. This was something we did in
secret. We learned we have to keep it
(25:58):
secret this weekend. Yeah.
In trouble, we'll be embarrassed.
We'll be shamed. So it's not just the behavior,
the lack of the integrity issue here is often times far more
significantly impactful than theactual behavior.
We've got to address that integrity issue because without
(26:18):
it, you're screwed. You know, you're, you're just,
you're just going to be repeating those same patterns
over and over again. And does does the lying, the
covering up, the sneaking around, can that be as addictive
and rewarding as the as whateverthe ACT is?
Yes, yes. So one of the exercises that we
have in the program, Andy, is it's right in the beginning,
(26:42):
instead of asking clients to tell me all of the bad parts
about their compulsive sexual behavior, I flip the script and
I say I want you to tell me all of the good parts, all of the
positive attributes. Helps me escape, helps me
nothing, helps me deal with anxiety.
(27:02):
It's a release, it's a reward. It's a reward.
It's it and it and it's the the secret, Andy, the autonomy, the
freedom. One of the means that clients
connect with is Gollum from Lordof the Rings, my precious,
because it is their precious. It's their secret.
(27:24):
It's where they go when they've got nothing else.
Well, they don't know how to deal with whatever they're
dealing with ever strong emotions that they're
experiencing. This is my go to.
It's a security blanket. And one of the crazy statements
I'll say in here, not everyone is going to get it, but but when
clients do, it's like, oh crap, porn is safe for them.
(27:49):
It is a safe place for them to watch what they want, do what
they want, fantasize what they want, go wherever they got to go
until the release, and then the shame comes and then the cycle
repeats itself again. But in a very, very, very
effective and impactful coping strategy.
It worked too well, which is whywe have the problem that we
(28:10):
have. So you stressed that we all need
a healthy sexual expression and and you know, treatment is not
I'll never have sex again when it comes to porn that does there
need to be a healthy relationship with porn or do
some people just need never do that again?
Some people need to never do it again.
They don't have the ability nor do they want to create the
(28:34):
ability to to manage it. It's like there's no healthy
place. Well, let me start with, are
there couples who use erotica tospice and who's up their love
life? We're not talking about that.
We're not talking about fun things that couples are doing
(28:55):
with each other. We're talking about the guy in
the bathroom, 2 in the morning, hoping everybody's asleep in the
basement. Assuming the position, the
hunch, the hunch position, like the evolution of man at the end
is going to be this position right here, the hunch position
with the with the glow in the face, right?
That's what we're talking about,right?
And so while some people are able to create a healthy
(29:19):
relationship with adult content,most of my clients have gotten
to a place where they say, you know what?
I find that my life is significantly better not
watching other people have sex. And so it isn't, while there may
be moral issues that drive that choice, when I find Andy, it's
(29:41):
only the moral issue that's fueling the choice.
Those guys tend to fail. But for men who come to the
conclusion that, yes, I have moral objections to this, I
might have religious objections,spiritual objections, and
embracing the reality that this is actually self harm.
I'm corrupting my arousal template.
(30:02):
I'm watching things that I ain'tgoing to do in real life.
It's not connecting me more withmy partner.
In fact, it's making me feel worse because I feel shame
around when I'm watching. That's typical.
If someone is listening right now and feels trapped in their
compulsive behaviors, is there afirst step you would recommend
(30:23):
that they take? Today, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes. Well, listen, reach, reach out
for help. It doesn't have to be me.
It doesn't have reach out to Andy guys like do something, go
to a meeting, do something and and what I want to say to you is
is welcome to a powerful awakening because one this is
(30:47):
the ridiculously difficult habitto break.
If anyone tells you otherwise, please run in the other
direction. OK, that that's just
disingenuous and untrue. The good news is though, the
skills that it takes self-control, emotional
intelligence, integrity, purpose, connection, love,
grace, forgiveness, that's a great life, right?
(31:09):
The cure is the aggressive pursuit of a great life.
So tell somebody, get help, start practicing self-care to
the best of your ability. And if you need professional
help, reach out to someone and get it.
Because the, the, the reality isthat the here's my cliche, Andy,
(31:31):
one of my first YouTube videos, click bait title.
And you know, you know, I've always tried to be ethical and
honest in my advertising. I got one YouTube video and it's
the cure for sex and porn addiction day.
I haven't changed it because it is still my truth 13 years
later. The cure is the aggressive
pursuit of a great life. Anything short of that will
fail. It's too difficult a power, a
(31:53):
problem to break without you feeling good about yourself,
having community, doing all the things that you talk about on
your podcast. Honey, that's the the good news,
bad news. Bad news is it's difficult, but
life is difficult. So you got to pick one.
I'm going to pick great. Life's difficult.
So yeah, it's hard. The other side of this and the
(32:16):
skills that it takes to control yourself sexually will change
every aspect of your life. It'll anchor you to your
purpose. You'll have better friendships,
you'll have better relationships.
Sexual health is mental health, physical health and spiritual
health. And it took us a long time as
decided to figure that out. But we're trying to, we're
starting to get it because the consequences are so grave.
(32:40):
On the addiction side, Andy, like this is ministers, pastors,
leaders. We're not wired for this man.
And it's really, really ruining people's lives.
Yeah, well, I I love that line. It doesn't strike me as cliche
at all. Besides the aggressive pursuit
of a great life, what else wouldyou like men to know?
(33:01):
I like men to know by prioritizing sexual health, you
prioritize physical health, mental health, and spiritual
health. Like I said earlier, sexual
health touches all three, and welive in a society where our
sexuality has been cheapened. It has been demeaning that it
(33:21):
it's useless to sell off things.And the sooner that men wake up
to how our sexual energy is being exploited, turning us into
weak men, the sooner that they're going to awaken and
realize that this isn't normal. We are not wired to be have AI
(33:42):
girlfriends and to to to for only fans.
Like it's not healthy for most people.
It's really, really, really joining people's lives in ways
that you and I couldn't even imagine as a kid.
But I want everyone to know thatyour sexual energy is powerful,
(34:04):
and with great power comes greatresponsibility, and you have to
treat your sexual energy with that same level of respect as
referenced by Voltaire and Spider Man with great power.
Yeah, those the advice of those two.
That's a win, win. So Craig, where can people go to
(34:26):
learn more about the Mindful Habits system and connect with
you? Sure, people can visit the
website mindfulhabithelp.com. You can call the number to
schedule an appointment to talk to me.
You can look at the different programs and you can check out
my podcast which is Sex Afflictions and Porn addictions.
If you just type in sex addiction, usually it comes
right up so. Awesome.
(34:48):
So, Craig, thanks for thanks forsaving your own life, and now
thanks for all the work that you're doing to help other
people save their lives too. Well, thanks for having me,
Andy. I love chatting with you.
I think you're great. And everyone check, keep, keep,
keep watching and check out Andy's programs.
Man, this is a great guy here. And I'm really privileged to be
on your podcast. Andy, Thank you.
(35:10):
Craig, thank you so much for your honesty, your courage, and
the powerful reminder that we are not defined by our worst
habits. If you want to learn more about
Craig, check out the Mindful Habit System by visiting Mindful
Habit help.com. And if you're ready to take your
own breath further, join me in acommunity of like minded men who
are dedicated to living authentically inside the
Authentic AF community. It's free, it's supportive, it's
(35:31):
where men can feel real about everything.
You can join us at realmenfeel.org/group and until
next time, be good to yourself.
I got one YouTube video and it'sthe cure for sex and porn
addiction. I haven't changed it because it
is still my truth 13 years later.
The cure is the aggressive pursuit of a great life.
Anything short of that will fail.
It's too difficult a problem to break without you feeling good
about yourself, having community, doing all the things
(00:20):
that you talk about on your podcast and.
Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel.
I'm your host Andy Grant here toremind you that being a man is
not about suppressing your emotions, it's about feeling
them and living your life authentically.
Today's guest is someone that has walked through the fire and
built a path for others to follow.
Craig Para is a world renowned expert in overcoming compulsive
sexual behaviors, sex addiction and porn addiction.
(00:42):
He's the Co founder of the Mindful Habits System with his
wife Michelle, helping thousandsof people from all walks of life
take control of their habits andtransform their lives.
Craig knows first hand the devastation of addiction and the
power of building a system that works when traditional
approaches fail. Today, we're going to explore
what really drives compulsive behaviors, how shame keeps men
stuck, and what it looks like tolead all parts of yourself,
(01:05):
especially the ones you hate. If you're looking for a
supportive community, check out Authentic AF, my free online
community at realmanfield.org/group.
Let's do it all right, Craig. Hello and welcome to Real
Manfield. Hey, man, it's good to be here.
Thanks, Andy. So Craig, I know in AI guess in
a prior life you are a high-powered attorney and what
(01:28):
forced you to kind of pause and take a look at what how you were
leading your life? Yeah, wasn't a pause, it was a
the brakes applied abruptly as humanly possible.
So make a Long story short, always been really successful
professionally. An executive attorney kept
getting bigger and bigger jobs. I got fired from my job back
(01:50):
east for telling a stupid white lie to my boss, which you cannot
do. You cannot lie in the office of
the general counsel or any position of authority.
Quite frankly, as soon as you lie, your credibility is pretty
much shot. Now, with luck, all the next
day. But I'm the comeback kid.
I had a better job. Now.
Listen, while all this is happening, Andy, I'm breaking
down. So I get a job in California.
(02:15):
The company moves me out here. I'm now an executive for a very
large insurance company. Biggest responsibility that I've
ever had in my life. I hated it.
I hated the job. I felt I was trapped.
I rebelled against that, and oh boy, did I rebel against that.
I ended up being hospitalized after trying to hurt myself.
(02:37):
I was fired from that job. That firing and that attempt to
hurt myself was the big wake up call for me because I knew,
Andy, that I couldn't keep doingthe same things that had been
producing that outcome. And I had done, you know,
traditional therapy. I had done, you know, meetings.
(03:00):
And it's not their fault it didn't work.
It's all my fault it didn't work.
But I needed something differentand and that's what ultimately
led me to where to me talking toyou now.
But yeah, that was the low point, Andy.
What did you do to take care of yourself that became the
foundation for how you now serveother people?
Yeah, great question. And let me be clear, right, get
(03:23):
therapy. You know, I want everyone
listening to this to get help to, you know, have someone in
your corner. We can't do it alone, guys.
But I, I found, so when I got out of the inpatient facility, I
got an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper prescribing me the things
that I needed to do going forward.
And for some reason, Andy, I don't know why I expected this,
(03:45):
but I expected it to be something different.
I had expectations. We were finally going to crack
the code. This time it was an, it was an
inpatient facility. It's, it's, it's not the place
where anyway it, it was a really, really very, very low
point. But I get this prescription for
more therapy, more meetings. I was more depressed at that
(04:08):
moment because I'd spent a lifetime in therapy going back
to childhood peeling lay the layers of the onion, the, the
sexual assaults, the physical assaults, the, you know, mom and
dad and, and all that, you know,important work.
But here I was at my lowest point.
So I had this vision that I had to do something differently and
(04:32):
I found a counselor who didn't subscribe to the disease based
model of addiction when it came to compulsive sexual behavior.
And this therapist also taught me tools, ultimately hired me,
and then that's how I ended up where I am today.
But it really started at that low point, Andy.
I needed something different. What I was doing wasn't working.
(04:56):
I was challenging the, the, the,the notion that talking about
your problems once a week is going to produce great outcomes.
And while I think that that is incredibly important for some
people, I needed more. And, and ultimately I built it
that that's what gave birth to the mindful habit system.
And 15 years later, you know, still going strong, kicking ass
(05:18):
and taking names. But it all started at that low
point, realizing that I needed something more.
One thing that I'm amazed in your story is that your
relationship with your wife didn't just survive this it it
evolved and you you are Co creators of this.
The mindful habit system is that.
Right, Yeah, we are. And the we just celebrated my
(05:39):
wife's 50th birthday. Literally we've got a friend
over here in the other room and other friends, you know, flew in
and we had an amazing time. She's my business partner, my
life partner. She saved my life at my low
point, and I'm obviously very grateful for that.
But yeah, And you have to thrive, Andy.
We teach that you have to thrive.
(05:59):
You cannot come out of sex addiction, porn addiction,
mental illness, whatever you want to call it and be mediocre
or be just OK. You know, just OK wasn't enough
for me, although I thought it was.
But there I was finding myself back in some of the same holes.
So yeah, your relationship is such an important part of your
(06:20):
physical health and mental health.
And we teach people that it has to thrive if it's going to
survive and you're going to be happy.
So you mentioned some childhood physical and sexual assault.
Do you feel that that set you upfor sexual challenges and issues
as an adult? Absolutely.
(06:41):
Absolutely. So my mother was physically
abusive. My therapist called it the worst
form of abuse he had ever seen in 17 years.
Now I don't believe that I, I, Imight my mind.
So that was an act of compassionbecause I've been doing this for
13 years and I've seen some pretty horrible stuff.
I had food, shelter, clothing, soccer practice, soccer
(07:02):
tournaments, wrestling tournaments, Disney World.
There. There was a lot of things that
were going right. However, my attitudes towards
women, I was first woman gave meup for adoption.
I was adopted as an infant. The second woman, despite her
best intentions, hurt me. I got scars all over my hands
(07:23):
and arms from that abuse. And what that did was it made me
susceptible to the older neighborhood boy who had parents
who didn't look after him at a whole basement to himself.
And he had porn and a pool tableTV and a Mac.
You know, before people even hadMacs, we played Wolfenstein.
(07:44):
So the irony is, is that the theplace where, you know, and I'd
say I was being touched. There was an age difference, but
we were, you know, participatingin, you know, mutually
consensual stuff most of the time.
There were a couple of moments that certainly blurred the line
because I was younger. But yeah, that's where the
(08:06):
secret started. And the shame.
How big a role does shame play in keeping men stuck in kind of
any self-destructive behavior they might be in?
I want permission to change thisanswer later on, but I'll say
Andy, it's the most impactful. It is the most dangerous, it is
the most nefarious, because it'snot like you did something
(08:31):
wrong. It's that you are wrong.
You know, shame and guilt are two different things or or even,
you know, good shame moral compass reminded me it's a
little, you know, I don't want to be.
That's not what this was. This was a drowning, worthless
piece of shit kind of shame thatcuts me and my clients to their
core because it's evidence that they are in fact not worthy of
(08:54):
love or not worthy of repair, not worthy of grace and
forgiveness. Which obviously is ridiculously
true, but shame is massively impactful.
How do you help clients break free from that that weight of
shame? A couple things #1 when people
(09:15):
start the program, Andy, I want them anchored as quickly as we
can to their purpose. Like why are they here?
There is a lot of data that sayspeople who have purpose live
longer, healthier lives. And you know, from a business
perspective, it would be preposterous to have a life that
that wasn't going the the business that didn't have a
mission and wasn't going in it in any particular direction.
(09:38):
So what I want clients anchored to why are they here in the 1st
place? And it better not be just the
stop. I want them anchored to what why
are you doing this? Why do you want to be better?
Why do you want to save your marriage?
Why do you want to work on yourself?
So I want them answering that why question and building on
that as we make our way through the program.
(09:58):
And that's that's up. The primary way we help clients
manage shame is through a thing called parts work or the
internal family systems model. So the internal family systems
model is a modern neuroscience supported behavior change
modality that reflects the reality that we have inside us.
(10:20):
These different parts that take over in response to external
stimuli. And these parts aren't conflict.
These parts take over and hijackthe system and lead us to do
things that we say we don't wantto do.
But like learning to lead shame in love.
(10:42):
That part is what happens in theparts work.
It helps people instead of, you know, demonizing their shame.
The parts work gives people an understanding of where it came
from. What?
Why do they feel like a worthless piece of shit?
There's always childhood programming around that
(11:04):
conditioning in training, but but even more importantly than
where it came from, that's obviously important.
That family of origin root cause.
You know when you go see a therapist and they're asking you
about the past, there's a reasonfor that.
That's the conditioning, that's the training.
But more importantly, what the parts work does is it gives you
(11:24):
a vehicle to manage shame. It gives you a container that
this is the part that I need to leave.
I can't get sucked up by the undertow of I'm a worthless
piece of crap. I'm a bad person when that part
awakens, right? That's my body's way of telling
me I need something. And we teach people to listen
(11:44):
and lean those parts versus demonize them, shame them, stuff
them down and ignore them, whichhappens an awful lot.
What was it about the traditional 12 step model that
that wasn't working for you and perhaps isn't isn't working for
other people? Yeah.
So let me first say that these are amazing communities, amazing
(12:05):
fellowships of people at their lowest point where they can go
and and be seen and get help from someone else.
I want to lead with that proposition.
If you are lonely and you are dealing with this, go to a
meeting. OK, now that being said, in the
(12:26):
treating compulsive sexual behavior like we treat alcohol
is highly controversial. Though most people think sex
addiction and porn addiction is the prevailing treatment model,
it's not. Sex addiction and porn addiction
has been rejected by the American Psychiatric
Association. They studied it for five years.
(12:47):
And we don't think using the alcohol framework is what's
going to actually create healthysexuality.
The goal isn't sobriety. The goal isn't not doing
something. The goal is being happy, being
happy and having a healthy sex life, whatever that might.
So add my low point and that waspart of my awakening when I
(13:11):
learned how controversial it was.
I've been in treatment for 20 years.
I had no idea there was controversy.
I had no idea the World Health Organization studied sex
addiction and rejected it in favor of a process disorder.
I didn't know that the American Association of Sexuality
Educators, Counselors and Therapists, the leading group of
(13:31):
treatment providers with an expertise in sexual health, say
the 12 step model actually causes harm.
What, what? Wait, 'cause this is what I've
been doing for 20 years. So there was a part of me that
was angry at that low point, Andy, no one told me this, No
one shared with me how could I be in treatment for 20 years and
not one of the therapists say, just so you know, this is an
(13:54):
experimental model. It's not supported by forensic
evidence. It hasn't double-blind placebo
like other treatment protocols have been studied.
There was no disclaimer around that it's not a recognized
mental health disorder and thereare valid reasons for that.
And so that was the gap that I wanted to fill.
(14:17):
So I've heard you talk about your program as that is it's
habit recovery. So how does focusing on habits
different from focusing on addiction?
Well, I think there, I think there's an overlap, you know,
not, not, not to mince words, right.
I don't get caught up, Andy. And what you call it because
clearly it's compulsive and clearly it's addictive, but the
(14:41):
solution is not not doing the thing, right.
That is one of the most important lessons I want to
teach people. The solution is not doing the
thing. You must create healthy
sexuality. You have to deal with the
underlying treatment issues. And at that low point, Andy, you
know, sometimes like an expression hits you, like, like
(15:05):
you heard it before, but it hitsyou.
And what hit me at that low point was in order to break a
habit, you have to make a habit.And I learned that in Charles
Duhigg's book. And as someone who designed
curriculum for a living when I was an executive, I was
responsible for training thousands of people.
And I said to myself, if the make a habit part of the
(15:26):
equation is most important because it is the condition that
must be met if you are to break a habit, to break a habit, you
have to make a habit. So I decided to build a model
focused on the make a habit. So making new habits is
everything. That's identity change, that's
process change, outcome change. It all comes from who you are,
(15:48):
what you do. How do you create healthy?
How do you counterbalance these forces that started for us in
childhood, this escape, this release, this reward?
And so when I started focusing on the habits I needed to create
versus the habits I needed to break, things change
significantly for me in my recovery.
(16:09):
So I know you worked with a lot of high achievers, executive
celebrities, Olympians. When someone's in the public
eye, what added challenges do they have and do you have as a
coach to help them? Yeah, it still be added
challenges. One of the things that most
people don't know what it's liketo be a target for women.
(16:31):
I ain't at Target. I mean, I'm not at Target, at
Target or the supermarket, right?
No one, no one, no one, no one. No one's texting me.
No one's studying where I'm on vacation, what hotel I'm going
to be in like these. Some of them are predators.
They are absolutely predators. And these are young men.
My clients tend to be 30. They're usually towards the
(16:54):
middle or to the end of their career.
But it is. It's absolutely insane how great
they need need to be around setting boundaries because they
are constantly being harassed, followed hotel rooms,
restaurants. There are people who know the
(17:14):
schedules of the players, know what hotels they stay at, know
what restaurants they go go to. So that is a ridiculously
difficult challenge that most people don't have.
In addition to being in the public eye and receiving all
that attention, which, you know,as guys we love.
They're just like us, Andy. There's no, you know what I
mean? They, they, they want to be
successful. They want to be happy in their
(17:35):
lives. They happen to be very good at
this sport or, or this thing andthey, you know, busted up just
like the rest of us. All that attention, all that
significance. When they're off stage, they're
empty or they're off the, the floor, you know, there's this
empty feeling. They're stuck in the hotel room
for hours and hours and hours. And what happens?
(17:56):
What it, what it, what do men do?
You know, they find themselves on social media and before you
know it, someone's inviting themselves over to the room.
And you know, there's just a lotof that that goes on.
So there's a lot of pressure forthese guys, pressure that most
people don't have, you know, plus the pressure of the public
shaming that happens when it, when it goes public.
(18:16):
Most of my client, I've had a few cases that have bled over
into the public Andy and I'm always behind the scenes
reputation management working with their publicist and, and
they're really helping that. My job is to help them.
But yeah, it is not that anyone is going to have pity for these
guys, but it is harder for them.They're trying hard, they want
to be better. Pressure is enormous and I'm
(18:40):
just blessed that I don't have those pressures.
In this day and age, with porn literally everywhere and
available at the fingertips on every device that everyone's
always carrying with them, how has that changed the landscape
for compulsive sexual activity? It has accelerated it, it has
(19:00):
compounded it, it has magnified it, and it is a growing
loneliness game epidemic in all people.
And now my clients are men and we're going to talk about men.
Andy, I thank God that I did nothave AI girlfriends when I was
acting out. I thank God that all this sugar
(19:24):
baby stuff wasn't as prolific. Like all these things that are
so commonplace now is mind blowing to me.
Like, and it's only been what, 15 years since I stopped doing
what I was doing. And the change has been
tremendous. It's available on every device
now. It's interactive, and that's
(19:45):
creating a whole host of challenges.
The AI girlfriend market is currently valued at 3.2 billion,
and if memory serves me correctly, they expect it to
rise to $28 billion per year that men are going to spend on
their AI girlfriends by 2028. Wow, man, I knew it was there,
(20:06):
but I didn't know. I didn't know it was already
that big of a thing. Yeah, and it's growing.
Have you seen any of the ads yet?
Have come across your Facebook yet?
Right, man, come on. I feel bad for these guys.
Yeah. I just, yeah, I'm like you when
I was growing up, like it was a stash of porn in the woods was
the big thrill of childhood. And that's what happened.
That was just, yeah, it's everywhere.
(20:27):
So it becomes meaningless. It becomes.
There's no such thing as a rarity to it.
I've heard you say. The, the, what I want, what I
want to say, Andy though the, the, the impact has been dire,
it is great, it is getting worse.
Experts believe that high rates of porn consumption have
impacted Japan's birth rate. The level of divorce continues
(20:50):
to rise. 30 to 40% of women ages18 to 40 report being slapped,
choked or spit on during intercourse without consent by
their partners. So it, it's not like, oh, is it
going to bleed over? It isn't just bleeding over, it
is feeling over and it's making a stinking mess because we are
(21:13):
not wired for this type of technology.
Our brains and bodies and heartsaren't wired to see all this
pornography. I I the impact is is deep and
profound and is destroying families.
Yeah, so. So Craig, if you had the global
sweeping power to make a change in regards to to porn or
(21:34):
technology, what would you do? I would make it so kids can't
see it right? Like I would do what, you know,
Australia, well, Australia has banned social media for kids
under 16. When there's a problem in
Australia, they, they seem to respond very quickly with
legislation to fix it. That ain't happening here, Andy.
(21:56):
It's just, it's just not like everyone knows kids are getting
exposed at a policy level. I know there are passionate
advocates who care, but in termsof industry, they don't care.
This the quicker you get them, the more you get a customer for
life. And I have no doubt that these
conversations are being had whenwe put a man on the moon, we can
(22:17):
protect children from pornography.
We, we could have done it. We refuse to do it.
And now that's where we are. But if I could wave a magic
wand, Evidence based sexual education training for parents.
Because if you're not talking toyour kid about pleasure, joy,
consent, values, morals, pleasure, which is a really hard
(22:39):
thing for parents to talk about with their kids, but if you're
not doing it, they're learning from porn and they are learning
lessons that'll impact them for the rest of their lives
negatively. So I've heard you often say that
compulsive behaviors are symptoms of deeper needs.
So what are some of those deeperneeds that men are not
addressing? Well, they're not taking care of
(22:59):
themselves. They're not.
They're not practicing self-care.
They're not able to regulate distress.
So porn, when it becomes prolific, is a coping strategy.
Men are using it to numb, cope and escape.
It is a release, it is a reward,and it works.
(23:22):
Andy, you know the stress that everyone's under now.
But look, we're talking about men, so we're going to talk
about men. They are under insane amounts of
stress. They identify as providers.
Yet more and more men are unableto fulfill that role because of
economic conditions and what's happening in this country.
(23:44):
So they're losing that identity as a provider.
And where do you where, you know, where have we had this met
boy, you know, numb, cope and escape and find that that
solace, that freedom, that secret, you know, we had the
magazines to go into the woods. The kids now just have this
phone and it is a very effectivecoping strategy.
(24:07):
So they have to learn to regulate their emotions.
They have to learn to regulate fear.
What do I do when I get stressed, when I get anxious?
How do I practice mindfulness? How do I anchor into my purpose?
How do I remind myself of who I want to be so I don't have to
(24:27):
keep slipping down that rabbit hole?
So yeah, there are a lot of needs that need to be met
proactively when clients come tome because they're all being met
reactively. For the partners of men that are
struggling with with any form ofsexual compulsion, what would
you like them to know? Oh God, this is such a tough
(24:48):
question. One I want them to know.
It's not your fault, number one,it's not your fault.
These are behaviors that began in childhood.
If you asked him how many times he numbed, coped, and escaped
using pornography, the guy in his 40s could conceivably be in
the thousands, thousands and thousands of time #2 while there
(25:13):
is debate on what to call it, hereally can't help.
He really does not have the capacity to make good decisions
over extended periods of times when it comes to sexual health
choices when he's been doing what he's been doing for as long
as he's been doing it. Don't blame yourself for that.
This is a very difficult problemto solve.
It started in childhood. It's happened thousands of
(25:36):
times. And it's not just doing it,
Andy. It's not just doing it.
It's the lying about it with. In other words, don't.
So the the men formerly known asboys.
It's not like we just did it, but we didn't do it on the front
lawn. Like we ride our bikes and pull
a wheelie and go over a jump. This was something we did in
secret. We learned we have to keep it
(25:58):
secret this weekend. Yeah.
In trouble, we'll be embarrassed.
We'll be shamed. So it's not just the behavior,
the lack of the integrity issue here is often times far more
significantly impactful than theactual behavior.
We've got to address that integrity issue because without
(26:18):
it, you're screwed. You know, you're, you're just,
you're just going to be repeating those same patterns
over and over again. And does does the lying, the
covering up, the sneaking around, can that be as addictive
and rewarding as the as whateverthe ACT is?
Yes, yes. So one of the exercises that we
have in the program, Andy, is it's right in the beginning,
(26:42):
instead of asking clients to tell me all of the bad parts
about their compulsive sexual behavior, I flip the script and
I say I want you to tell me all of the good parts, all of the
positive attributes. Helps me escape, helps me
nothing, helps me deal with anxiety.
(27:02):
It's a release, it's a reward. It's a reward.
It's it and it and it's the the secret, Andy, the autonomy, the
freedom. One of the means that clients
connect with is Gollum from Lordof the Rings, my precious,
because it is their precious. It's their secret.
(27:24):
It's where they go when they've got nothing else.
Well, they don't know how to deal with whatever they're
dealing with ever strong emotions that they're
experiencing. This is my go to.
It's a security blanket. And one of the crazy statements
I'll say in here, not everyone is going to get it, but but when
clients do, it's like, oh crap, porn is safe for them.
(27:49):
It is a safe place for them to watch what they want, do what
they want, fantasize what they want, go wherever they got to go
until the release, and then the shame comes and then the cycle
repeats itself again. But in a very, very, very
effective and impactful coping strategy.
It worked too well, which is whywe have the problem that we
(28:10):
have. So you stressed that we all need
a healthy sexual expression and and you know, treatment is not
I'll never have sex again when it comes to porn that does there
need to be a healthy relationship with porn or do
some people just need never do that again?
Some people need to never do it again.
They don't have the ability nor do they want to create the
(28:34):
ability to to manage it. It's like there's no healthy
place. Well, let me start with, are
there couples who use erotica tospice and who's up their love
life? We're not talking about that.
We're not talking about fun things that couples are doing
(28:55):
with each other. We're talking about the guy in
the bathroom, 2 in the morning, hoping everybody's asleep in the
basement. Assuming the position, the
hunch, the hunch position, like the evolution of man at the end
is going to be this position right here, the hunch position
with the with the glow in the face, right?
That's what we're talking about,right?
And so while some people are able to create a healthy
(29:19):
relationship with adult content,most of my clients have gotten
to a place where they say, you know what?
I find that my life is significantly better not
watching other people have sex. And so it isn't, while there may
be moral issues that drive that choice, when I find Andy, it's
(29:41):
only the moral issue that's fueling the choice.
Those guys tend to fail. But for men who come to the
conclusion that, yes, I have moral objections to this, I
might have religious objections,spiritual objections, and
embracing the reality that this is actually self harm.
I'm corrupting my arousal template.
(30:02):
I'm watching things that I ain'tgoing to do in real life.
It's not connecting me more withmy partner.
In fact, it's making me feel worse because I feel shame
around when I'm watching. That's typical.
If someone is listening right now and feels trapped in their
compulsive behaviors, is there afirst step you would recommend
(30:23):
that they take? Today, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes. Well, listen, reach, reach out
for help. It doesn't have to be me.
It doesn't have reach out to Andy guys like do something, go
to a meeting, do something and and what I want to say to you is
is welcome to a powerful awakening because one this is
(30:47):
the ridiculously difficult habitto break.
If anyone tells you otherwise, please run in the other
direction. OK, that that's just
disingenuous and untrue. The good news is though, the
skills that it takes self-control, emotional
intelligence, integrity, purpose, connection, love,
grace, forgiveness, that's a great life, right?
(31:09):
The cure is the aggressive pursuit of a great life.
So tell somebody, get help, start practicing self-care to
the best of your ability. And if you need professional
help, reach out to someone and get it.
Because the, the, the reality isthat the here's my cliche, Andy,
(31:31):
one of my first YouTube videos, click bait title.
And you know, you know, I've always tried to be ethical and
honest in my advertising. I got one YouTube video and it's
the cure for sex and porn addiction day.
I haven't changed it because it is still my truth 13 years
later. The cure is the aggressive
pursuit of a great life. Anything short of that will
fail. It's too difficult a power, a
(31:53):
problem to break without you feeling good about yourself,
having community, doing all the things that you talk about on
your podcast. Honey, that's the the good news,
bad news. Bad news is it's difficult, but
life is difficult. So you got to pick one.
I'm going to pick great. Life's difficult.
So yeah, it's hard. The other side of this and the
(32:16):
skills that it takes to control yourself sexually will change
every aspect of your life. It'll anchor you to your
purpose. You'll have better friendships,
you'll have better relationships.
Sexual health is mental health, physical health and spiritual
health. And it took us a long time as
decided to figure that out. But we're trying to, we're
starting to get it because the consequences are so grave.
(32:40):
On the addiction side, Andy, like this is ministers, pastors,
leaders. We're not wired for this man.
And it's really, really ruining people's lives.
Yeah, well, I I love that line. It doesn't strike me as cliche
at all. Besides the aggressive pursuit
of a great life, what else wouldyou like men to know?
(33:01):
I like men to know by prioritizing sexual health, you
prioritize physical health, mental health, and spiritual
health. Like I said earlier, sexual
health touches all three, and welive in a society where our
sexuality has been cheapened. It has been demeaning that it
(33:21):
it's useless to sell off things.And the sooner that men wake up
to how our sexual energy is being exploited, turning us into
weak men, the sooner that they're going to awaken and
realize that this isn't normal. We are not wired to be have AI
(33:42):
girlfriends and to to to for only fans.
Like it's not healthy for most people.
It's really, really, really joining people's lives in ways
that you and I couldn't even imagine as a kid.
But I want everyone to know thatyour sexual energy is powerful,
(34:04):
and with great power comes greatresponsibility, and you have to
treat your sexual energy with that same level of respect as
referenced by Voltaire and Spider Man with great power.
Yeah, those the advice of those two.
That's a win, win. So Craig, where can people go to
(34:26):
learn more about the Mindful Habits system and connect with
you? Sure, people can visit the
website mindfulhabithelp.com. You can call the number to
schedule an appointment to talk to me.
You can look at the different programs and you can check out
my podcast which is Sex Afflictions and Porn addictions.
If you just type in sex addiction, usually it comes
right up so. Awesome.
(34:48):
So, Craig, thanks for thanks forsaving your own life, and now
thanks for all the work that you're doing to help other
people save their lives too. Well, thanks for having me,
Andy. I love chatting with you.
I think you're great. And everyone check, keep, keep,
keep watching and check out Andy's programs.
Man, this is a great guy here. And I'm really privileged to be
on your podcast. Andy, Thank you.
(35:10):
Craig, thank you so much for your honesty, your courage, and
the powerful reminder that we are not defined by our worst
habits. If you want to learn more about
Craig, check out the Mindful Habit System by visiting Mindful
Habit help.com. And if you're ready to take your
own breath further, join me in acommunity of like minded men who
are dedicated to living authentically inside the
Authentic AF community. It's free, it's supportive, it's
(35:31):
where men can feel real about everything.
You can join us at realmenfeel.org/group and until
next time, be good to yourself.
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